When they first married, they lived behind the walls of a state-run prison, but as he transitioned from the life of a Texas prison guard to the life of a pastor, Tim Carter and his wife Jill saw their lives transformed in ways that they never guessed God had planned.

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And welcome to another addition of engaging truth. I'm your host pastor John Kane broadcasting from the oldest town in Texas. Medos with us on the program today, we have professor Eli pro uh, Preto, uh, professor Preto is associate professor of practical theology and associate Dean of urban and cross-cultural ministry. He's also, uh, a Lutheran foundation professor of urban and cross-cultural ministry at 40th seminary in St. Louis, Missouri. Welcome to the program Dr. Preto. Thank

You. Thank you, John. Thanks for having me. I'm very honored to be here talking to you guys, and I hope we can have exciting conversation this morning.

So, uh, you've come from Brazil. You've spent time in Texas, uh, you know, teaching, uh, missions, uh, leading a mission organization here and now you're a professor in, uh, St. Louis at the seminary. Tell us a little bit more about yourself and your life path.

Oh, thanks. Thanks, John. Yeah. So, um, as you can see by our last name that I have, I'm not really a traditional Lutheran, right? So I, I must be a fruit of mission, what, which I am. So I was born and raised in, in Brazil, like you pointed out. So, uh, I was born in Sao Paulo, which is Southeast of Brazil. And, uh, my dad retired early. We moved to Rudi Janeiro and close to our church. I mean, to our home, there was a Lutheran church. Uh, I grew up as Presbyterian, uh, in fact, baptized by a missionary American missionary in Brazil, pastor in Brazil, Presbyterian pastor. And my dad was a nominal Catholic. So Roman Catholic, uh, he didn't go to church too much. So mom raised us in the, in the Presbyterian faith. And, uh, but you know, one day we were going by bus passed by this Lutheran church, good shepherd Lutheran church.

And my mom didn't have a lot of formal education, but she read a lot. And she said, when the bus passed by the church, she said, well, this is a, a Lutheran church. You know, marching Luther is the reformer. And she started to tell me about his life, which I, you know, anything about it. So to make the long story short, we, uh, walk of that church, the following Sunday, because we could walk from our home and the pastor was in his first call pastor with Carlos. Garib a very German name. And so anyways, the, the rest is history. We, we, my mom and I joined the church. I was confirmed, uh, when I was 17 years old. And then the pastor sent me to the pre seminary in south Brazil and he said, you're gonna become a pastor. And here I am. so, uh, interesting story. But, uh, yeah, so that's, you know, my journey in the Lutheran faith. Um, my first come with Luter was through his small CA 15, 29, as everybody knows. I think everybody went to a Lutheran confirmation. They learn about the catechists. So I'm not a expert or a scholar in LTER, uh, I'm a fan, so I'm a fan of the guy. So he was, uh, you know, amazing to be, uh, he was ahead of his time and he had a really pastoral heart. So that's our topic today that'll be talking about.

So, so what was it about Luther that captured your mother's attention and then she passed that on to you?

You know, I, I think that's a good question. Never thought about that, John. I, I think, um, she said, if I remember correctly, she said, you know, Lutheran wanna have the church for people that people couldn't understand in their own language, as you know, he translated the Bible to German, uh, and he had a, a team of people helping him with the old Testament because, you know, it's a, it was a, a big, big endeavor to do that, but he did the whole new Testament in parts of the old Testament, for sure. Uh, but he had the theme of people work with him. And I think his major concern was to have God's word in people's hand. And I think my mom, in some way, she understood that, you know, the reason we can worship today in other Christian Church is because of Luther reformation. And I think that something that really stuck with me, you know, I mean, I always remember that. And, and I think that's why I, I really start to think about him more and more, you know, and I admire what he did

It. So, uh, Luther really seemed like he was good at time management. He did a lot of things at the same time. I mean, he was a monk, he was an, an administrative head of UHS and, uh, uh, yeah, monasteries and he was a professor like yourself, but he was also a pastor. That's right. And, um, can you give us some examples about that, how he maybe juggled those things or, or what was it about being a pastor that was so important in the mix? Yeah,

I think, you know, the whole reformation movement, uh, has to do with being faster or, or bad pastoral care. You know, if it was really concerned, you know, he himself was seeking comfort for his own soul and that's why it really D know, was driven him, uh, or drove him to be in the scripture. And then through the scripture, he, he discovered this God that was merciful, right? Yeah. That gave him comfort in the gospel. So, uh, there are so many scholars, you know, that, that they say, you know, really the, the real motivation that behind the reformation was pastoral concern, what we call pastoral care. Uh, and, uh, many, many scholars, like I said, I'm not a scholar in LTER, but, uh, they talk about that, that LTER, uh, was concerned about that. So he preached, you know, the scholars say that LTER preached more than 6,000 sermons in all his, uh, life, you know, as a preacher, but you, he, uh, you see examples to, of Luther writing the, the small and large catechists, right.

So why he did that because he wanted people to have the word in, uh, of God's word in, in their hands, as you know, in those days, you know, was not like going to the dollar story and buy a Bible, right. And take home. People do not have access to the scripture and was very expansive. So, uh, Luther thought, well, if we have a small catechist, which was not really his idea, we had catechists before Lutheran and, and he just, you know, reshaped things. And he wrote his own way and order that he wanna have the 10 commandments, you know, the apostle screen, the Lord's prayer. And by the way, that was Luther's main idea of the catechists. So today we have the 60 parts of the catechists, right? Because then we start to talk about baptism, uh, confession up solution, which is the office of the keys, and then the Lord supper.

But those three pieces were added later. Uh, the first three is really what you described the LUT or theology, right? So the 10 commitments shows, uh, God's law and shows you sin. And then what God does for you to forgive you, he gives you the apostle secret, right? That tells you who God is. He's the creator, he's the savior. He gives you the holy spirit to bringing you into the church now that you know who God is in, what he has done for you, you respond to God praying the Lord's prayer. You see that's his theology, but Luther also wrote many HS. Uh, he wrote letters of, of what they call spiritual letters of counsel, or, you know, giving comfort and, and counseling to people. Uh, he translated, you know, the liturgy and he wrote the liturgy, uh, in Latin, you know, for the people that were very well educated.

So he also thought about them, but he wrote one in German and he wrote a brief one that could be used in the house with the family that they could have devotions and prayers. So there are many aspects of Luter as faster, you know, that we can talk more about that. Uh, John, but one thing I'd like to emphasize here before, I'll let you move on, uh, is just that Luter, uh, for Luter through theology is always pastoral and pastoral care is always theological. You understand that? So, so theology is always applying to people's life, but as you would do, so theology has to be grounded in God's word. So it's not something abstract, you know, and we can talk about that, but Luther understood the word of God is a real thing. It's not really something print in the paper. Right. It was a living word of God, you know? So it is not like, oh, we see the scripture, oh, it's a book. You close the book. No Luther said, this thing is a living thing. This is, you know, happens in your life.

Right. Right. So as a pastor, we might say he was defending his people against corruption, but then helping them to, to take the word of God and make it their own's uh understanding's. That it applies, applies to each and every believer.

No, that's right, John. Yeah. And the nine to five cases, you know, is a good example of that. True know, people think, well, he wrote that thesis and in which he did it and was just to talk to the educated people. That's true too. But if you pay attention to the teases, you know, to those teases, he'll see that he's emphasizing, you know, this pastoral care too, you know?

Right. Right. So the forgiveness of sins, uh, being available to everyone from, from God, for everyone who, uh, is sorrowful over their sins rather than having to pay for it, uh, yeah. That, that whole notion of defending his people and granting God's forgiveness and peace is, is so powerful to people today just as it was, uh, back in Luther's day. So, uh, totally true. So you, you talk about Luther as pastor, uh, and the care that he personally gave to people, uh, and also his preaching where he, uh, preached so many sermons and he he'd sometimes he'd travel around and, and preach in other places and his, uh, his writings. I mean, his students who were with him took off detailed notes of just about every word he ever uttered. Uh, so we, we have a lot of those things yet today, I guess, uh, the style of his preaching was a lot more long-winded than, than what I'm, uh, used to, uh, many hours long. But what, what would you like? Yeah. What would you like to say about Luther as a preacher?

Well, I mean, that's a fascinating thing. We could talk for a long time and could be just one program about that. You know, as I said before, uh, John, uh, Luther, uh, understood that the word of God was really a living thing, you know, and he, you know, uh, the sermon should be a kind of a, he said in Latin Viv, a V that means the living voice of the gospel. Yeah. So he said, that's really, what is the most important thing? And if you remember, uh, his Jesus, you know, I think, uh, one of his thesis that I like most, uh, out of the 95 is I think it's the 62. Let me just, yeah, here is, he goes and Jesus, 62 is very short. It's only two line. And he says, the true treasure of the church is the most holy gospel of the glory and grace of God.

So Luther understood that the treasure of the church is this gospel that is giving to us in Christ, right. A Christ that was willing to become flesh, to suffer and die and rise again, to give us hope and salvation forgiveness, eternal life. So a, uh, I mean, it's interesting because Ru Luther never wrote a book about homo addicts about preaching, or even, you know, one of the essays. He didn't do that, even though he says, I think we can see that he wanna do that. And, and he was, uh, really upset about the preachers of his day and, and, you know, and he said something very interesting. He said, someday, I will have to write a book against the artful preachers. So they have very art, whatever it, he meant by that. But, you know, they're not really preachy, but you know, if you, if you think about his sermons, uh, John, I think three things, you know, are very interesting.

First of all, simplicity of Lang, which, you know, I think that for us professors, or even Lutheran pastors, because as you know, uh, you cannot be a Lutheran pastor if you don't have a lot of education, as you know that. So the, our church requires a lot of training and learning language and all that, but sometimes, uh, I think we can stay up and don't preach and talk to people in their level. So Luther was very concerned that would, would speak, speak, you know, in the level that people understand, uh, there are many quotes of him and one of them is like he says, when I'm here in the church, I preach for the women in the children, you know, and, and if can't understand, anybody else would be able to understand me, but then he says, if you wanna hear Dr. Luther speaking really difficult, well, then you come to my classroom and in some way he said, I'm gonna speak so hard that you never even yourself understand me.

so, so he was kind of a, yeah, you don't, you know, like we say, in text, don't mess with me. You know, if you wanna meet to hear speaking really tough, I will do it. But when I preach, I wanna be very simple, uh, uh, not simplistic, but simple language that people understand the meaning of the gospel. Another aspect of his preaching, John, I think it's very important for us under stand at his preaching was very direct, the no graphic and concrete preaching. You see, he using some examples of, of those days when people were farmers or people that were in the market, even his translation was like that, right. He was going to the market to hear how people spoke words in German, that he could use the same words for people to understand what they're reading. And also that was important for him.

You know, uh, I have a quote from him here. He says, in my preaching, I take pains to treat the Bible verse. And I stick with this, with this verse. And so to instruct the people that they can say, that's what this sermon was all about. You know, I, I, as a preacher know, sometimes I wonder, and now I'm sitting more in the field than I'm preaching. And to be honest with you, sometimes I go to a, a place and people pretty say what this guy was talking about. I don't have an idea, you know? So I think the main idea is you stick with a little piece of verse and say, let's see what people can take home. You know? And then the last piece, then I'll go back to that is length, the variety, his delivery, uh, Luther said something like this, the pre needs to know to step to the pulpit, stay in the pulpit and come down.

like, you know, just stay there enough to say the word and then a it's over. Okay. So, uh, I, I, I, I lose or never use that because of course it means time. You didn't have airplanes, but you know, I, sometimes I call all sermons like airplanes, you know, you think that guy gonna, you know, he's gonna land land, and then he takes off again and goes around the airport for a couple times. Then he land, no, he takes off again and says, you know, I don't like, you know, airplane sermons, you know, you just land in land man, take off in land. So that's it, you know, so a variety too, you know, using different ways of preaching, you can see back in delivery. He wrote his sermons. I think he preached from notes, but, you know, he was a very strong preacher. He had a beautiful voice, uh, for people, scholars say, so people could really listen to him and enjoy, listen, you have to understand John that the gospel was something new. Okay. People never heard about that before. So they would be probably thirsty to hear this. Then I say, I wanna drink more of this word, like the woman in the well in John four, right? Hey, Jesus. Giving me this water. Okay. So anyways, I, I spoke too much, John.

not at all, not at all. So you, you brought up one of the, uh, FES from Luther's 95 FES and that's what kicked off the reformation. So any Christian, who's not a member of the Roman Catholic church or the, the Orthodox church at bodies, any other church body really took its origin at some point, uh, from, from Luther's effect on that day, you're talking about the, um, uh, the sweetness of the gospel, the treasure of, of the gospel mm-hmm . And I think the message that he, uh, he heard from the, uh, the existing church before that point before the, the 95 thesis was that there was a treasury of merits from, from the dead saints. And we were to look to them for, uh, forgiveness and we could buy their forgiveness, but, you know, to understand the gospel, then the contrasted to, uh, good works from dead saints. How would you define the gospel for our listeners?

Well, I think that know the, the gospel, uh, if you would, you know, in a nutshell, we can use John three 16, right? Everybody knows that, that God so loved the world that he's giving his only one, his son, whoever believes him shall not perish, but have eternal life. But of course the cough is more than that. Of course, what Christ did for us on the cross, you know, suffering taking, or, or guilty and or sins, you know, and may on the cross for, in our behalf. And he not only suffered, but he also gave his life. He died. He, for me, you know, I think Luter was very serious about when you preach generically, you know, that, but Luter was always saying, you know, it's for you and, and, you know, for you in the single art, you know, uh, uh, it is interesting in English, you know, you can be singular can be plural, right.

Uh, in Portuguese a or in Spanish is like, like that. So if you say two is you, and if you say you per is for, except in can say you all y'all y'all. So I like that too. And sometimes I preach it like that. I said, it's for y'all I say, oh, okay, pastor. Yeah. It's for everybody. Right. But you know, the idea of Luther was like that John is for you. Okay. So Jesus died for you. He is my savior. And I think that was something very unique. Uh, in the reformation, you can tell Luther struggle with that. He, he, you know, many times he was trying to find this merciful, God, he saw many people dying, John, even his friends when he was in school. Oh, the play. And I was really, yeah, exactly. And he was really concerned. I said, if I die today, what are I gonna call?

He didn't have any hope. You know? So for him, he was in this quest to find a, a merciful God. And when he founded, he says, man, I cannot keep this thing for myself. You know, we could talk about that another time. But people criticized Luther that Luther wasn't a missionary that in the sense that we think going to another parts of the world and, you know, but tell me this, John, the guy that rediscovers, the gospel is not he a missionary, are you kidding me? I mean, this guy got the gospel back in the church. He was a true mission, Eric. And how many people came to Burg to study there. And then they went back to their countries. They brought all that learning that they got from Luther Melan and all the reformers that were working with Luther in that theme. You know, so think about that. They're doing mission work, you know, what they learned in Berg, they talk to their Homeland. So, but yes, the gospel was the, you know, the center of all his ministry. Uh, and you can tell he had really a pastoral heart, you know?

Well, he, he walked to Roman back and he walked to Heidelberg and back and he, you know, Heidelberg was 300 miles. I, Rome had to be more than a thousand miles on foot. So he, he did a lot of walking. So I'm not sure who their, who is saying that Luther wasn't a missionary because I don't think they knew the man

That's right. You know, of course they know he, he was the missionary the way sometimes people perceive that today, but, you know, he was, he was preaching the gospel. Every time you preach the gospel, you are a missionary, right. You're sharing God's word of forgiveness. Right. So I, I cannot perceive in another way, you know, he's a fascinating, I mean, he was, and still is a fascinating man know because there's so many things unexplored, you know, in his scholarship, you know, you see, uh, uh, meetings, you know, conventions or symposium of Luter where people go and discuss different aspects of his work, you know, because he was so, like you said, I dunno if he lap, you know, I mean, he, I don't know. I mean, how he could, he did not have a laptop. He did not have a re typewriter. I mean, he did not have a secretary, I guess.

I mean, you know, how he could do all that. I don't have any, I, I really don't and he had six kids, I guess. Right. So, oh man. So, uh, but he loved his wife, you know, uh, Casey and, and, you know, I think Catarina, right. Karina. Yeah. And, and, and, you know, but, uh, I think he was the strong force behind his work too. You know, I, I think he organized his life because he was a mess, I think, until he married her, you know, he was so organized and, and I think she helped him too, to have a better life that he could produce so much, you know, after he had a wife that could organize his life in his household. And, and that was a blessing to him. He recognized that many times, you know?

Right. Well, Eli, we'll come back to you in just a moment. First, I'd like to point our listeners to our, uh, website for our radio program, E L M houston.org. And they're on that website, Elm houston.org. You can find links to our Twitter and YouTube and, uh, uh, Facebook accounts. You can find out more about your, uh, radio hosts. You can write us at PO box 5, 6, 8. So I Texas 77 4. Oh, uh, there's also ways for you to, uh, support our work because of all, all of our, on the air hosts our volunteers. So your tax deductible donations go far to help us purchase airtime for, uh, these radio programs. So our guest today has been, uh, professor Eli Preto at Concordia seminary. Uh, the, the website for the, uh, seminary is csl.edu. Eli, thank you for being with us today and to our listeners. God's blessings. We hope you join us again real soon on engaging truth. Goodbye.

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