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Honest Talk About Heartbreak, Dating and Relationships - Rob McPhillips EPISODE 20, 8th September 2020
Navigating Friendships
00:00:00 03:11:55

Navigating Friendships

Friendships can be deeply rewarding and also deeply painful when they go wrong. In this episode we discuss relationship problems that ended up touching on the biggest questions in life.



Welcome to honest talk about heartbreak, dating and relationships, relationships, the podcast helping you navigate your path to happy ever after with your host, Rob McPhillips. I've not really done a lot of work in terms of friendships, so I'm not really clear on what people want to talk about and what the biggest issues are going to be. So if we talk about. In the group's. Really, what you'd like to get out of how you like your relationship friendships to be improved.


Any problems that you have in your friendships? And then we'll come back and go from there, because we've got to have some new people just to remind everyone that we record the audio of what was discussed in the main room. And but what was said in a bright carriage is private, so. Yes, sir, we only the audio and first time. Right, so. He wants to sort of sum up some issues that came up in breakout rooms.


I don't know whether I don't mind. So basically what we can do with shamers in order to. To attract a friend, especially when you've got to be a friends yourself and show, in other words, it's about being comfortable within within yourself, and then once you're once you've got that level of comfort, when you meet another human being, regardless of gender or age, that person will automatically be attracted to you because of the quality that your students from yourself.


So I gave an example yesterday where I went on when I went on a walk with another Meetup group, which had never done before, and my expectation wasn't negative. I wasn't thinking I'm going to go on a two hour walk with a lot of the people who we don't know and they don't know me and I'm going to be bored and will I enjoy it. I just went with complete serenity in my own head, and when I arrived, I instantly got so wimbish, like all grown.


And then we spent the next two hours walking around up in a really good laugh and I really enjoyed myself. But at the end, once I had listened to the other people, other people's conversations whilst I was there, I was aware that although I would be able to hold a conversation with them, they were compatible, compatible with myself and I wasn't compatible with them. So it was like like it had automatically attracted, like by me not doing anything.


Yeah, yeah, I think that's that's that's one of the key things, I think, of the issues underlying friendships. And I was discussing. That's some friendships can be hard to start, like one party will recognize traits in another person that they've just met that they like, but they're barriers that the other person presents. And sometimes it's a bit of a challenge. You almost have to work at it to get through that, to get to that friendship.


And I was setting an example with myself.


A friend of mine that I met at university, we were in the final year together and the initial meeting was one of she just didn't like me at all. She just was like this, you know, but I liked her.


And I know we're best friends. And she lives in London. And, you know, we have been friends ever since.


But it took effort, it took a lot of time and I had to, I think, suppress some of some of my natural instincts, behavior to not antagonize her and to allow her to see that I meant well and and study partners who were in the same group and study group. And so we got to know each other and. You know, I was a bridesmaid and her daughter's godmother, I mean, we're that close. But it took it took months.


And that was really developing the trust and then once you trust it, yes, I think there was a lot of anger in her and I think she saw me as.


I hate to say this, but she she was at the time we were like polar opposites and she didn't recognize that she had things going for her that I didn't have.


She she's an accomplished musician, she has a beautiful singing voice. She has been on television singing and well, this is in Jamaica, OK? And so very talented and and a pretty girl.


But she was twice my size. So for her, it's like, OK, you're looking skinny thing, you know, sort of thing.


And I'm large, but I can't sing to save my life, OK?


I'm not a single I'm so she had things that I admired and looked up to and I, you know, and I had given up on my music lessons and all the rest of it. And here she is. Great. You know, going off to competitions abroad and all the rest of it. And I'm in all of her.


But she just looked at me and said, oh, that's the pretty girl that everybody's after. I don't like her kind of thing, you know, and I don't that's not that's not me that's on the outside, you know.


It took a while for us to get. To the point where we could actually emerge as friends. Yeah, I can see I can see how that relates to what Alan was talking about in terms of, you know, relationships are barriers are really it's a self that puts the barriers there. And so, yes, I can see some commonality of that. Did anyone? I like to start from problems because I think when you've got a problem, you're able to to analyze that is, did anyone have any problems that they wanted to talk about?


Yeah, actually, I had one that I was sharing with the group, so I have a very good friend. We've been best friends for five years and the last few months, a few weeks, I feel like we are growing apart and I'm not sure.


I feel like I'm changing, but she's not changing the same direction and she's going through some things as well, and it makes me feel like she's less open actually towards me and what is happening with me and she's less empathetic.


That used to be and I confronted her about it today, that I felt like she was insensitive towards me a few days ago and it just really bounced off her and she just really didn't get it. And I'm not sure if I should. Try to have another go, like in a really structured way, explaining her where I'm coming from, what I feel, or maybe it's time that I just kind of like. Let it go a little bit and let it be a little bit closer, friendship and.


Focus on the relationships in my life. This sort of relates to we were discussing we sort of had a breakout room here in the main room where.


Sometimes friendships, people change and then the friendships change. And so I think you have people in your life for some maybe for the lifetime, some for less parts. It's like as we change in different stages of life. Relationships change. Do you feel like where you met? And the friendship was at its strongest, all the situations like the situations you used in her life, have they changed? Yeah, I feel like we are in different life situations and I feel like I used to have most of my life, I wasn't conscious of that.


My whole life revolved around my relationship. So like, I was always in long term relationships, but it just I just had too much emphasis in my life in relationships and.


Those kind of things, and I'm going through therapy at the moment, and I really feel like something is shifting in me and I don't want to live like that anymore. I want to have fulfillment in my life. And then if I have a relationship, that's great. But I feel like she's still just a little like her mind is like all about dating and that will fix everything. And I can't relate to it. And I don't want to be one of the things.


But but otherwise, she has so many good qualities as a person and. When I got to know her, but now I also feel like she's kind of going through some sort of mid-life crisis and she's changing like I think she used to be more compassionate, but she's not like that anymore. And I'm kind of puzzled. Have you asked her anything about her situation? Yeah, like we talk about her situation all the time, but. But, you know, like.


When she feels down, you know, and she's explaining telling me her thing, you know, I need to understand what when I say what is bugging me, she's just brushing it off, you know, and it doesn't feel nice, like.


I think Alan Alan made a good point earlier about forcing the issue, I suppose it sounds like you you've you reached out to try and mend the relationship, to find out what is wrong, to see if it could be salvaged, if you could be close together again. It sounds OK. And if she is if she understood what you meant. So if it was a meaningful conversation where she really understood what you meant, but she is still rebuffed and said, no, I'm going my own way, then I suppose you can't you can't force the issue.


At the end of the day, you cannot only self. And if you are healing yourself, then you know you have to you have to go on your own journey, I suppose.


Yeah. Oh. No. Yeah, I think so. But you've got to be. You got to be true to yourself, I think, and without. Without without being desperate for other people's company, hmm, this is, again, the point that Alan was making, quite rightly. Yeah, you've got to be comfortable with the company will come back and change. Change is good. Change happens all the time. We can't have because we are not the same people that we were when we were first born grow and change as a person ourselves.


And things don't stay static. Change is always supposed to happen in life. That's how better things come along. Hmm. That's my belief. No, thank you. I was just going to say in the back on the back of that is that. They've left then they weren't meant to stay. Left, they were never meant to stay, so. I think would be an injury, we will look at things through the level of our own understanding and the level of our understanding about anything, least of all somebody else we know almost any of us here truly know about ourselves.


Probably not a lot. And we're here to ultimately discover ourselves and and find out how we can interact with other people more successfully with more children. I'm afraid that's got 10 friends. I have got probably about 10 close friends. So I'm not here because I'm laughing friends, but I'm here because I'm looking to get better relationships with the friends and better relationship with Michelle. But, you know. Nobody ever walked away if they were meant to stay and.


What we've seen before in regards to why people go well, we don't know the answer to that because our level of understanding is is absolutely mind youth and we we'll try and ask them. They might not give us the answer. And even if they do, they might not give us an honest answer. That's where the acceptance comes in if someone's walked out. You just got to let them go and move forward in your life because your life is more important to them even.


Mhm. Yeah.


I think sometimes you need to be cynical and just think to yourself, does this person take away more than that.


I know that can feel quite harsh, but at the end of the day we have a very short time on this earth and also maybe even shorter than we think it might be. So why should we spend it with people that. Take away more than they give. I know that sounds cynical, but I, I know. Also, I think that. Friends come in different packages and feel different needs in in a person. They have different purposes. So I find as I have gone along my friendships, it's almost like they alternate depending on what's happening in my life or their lives or if they need me, if I need them, depending on what's what's happening.


Then one friend will probably be closer at a particular point and another friend. So it moves around. But there's still all we're still all friends.


And also in my situation, I find that if my friends, I keep my friends separate in a sense, I don't try to make them become friends, too. I don't force that. So when I'm with one friend that I give that person my full attention, that's my friend, I'm dealing with you, but I don't try to put two or three of my friends together and force them to be friends because I'm your friend, but also. My friends, I go to different friends, so different things, I get different things from from different from from from from from each one of my friends.


And Alan, you have a small group of people that you turn to, you know, most of the time.


And also, I suppose there are layers of people who you reveal your inner self to, some more so than others. So, you know, there are some who.


OK, for example, there's one friend that I can talk all kinds of business professional related stuff with and another one that's not a conversation that we will have if we do the girlie stuff, you know, the clothes, the hair or whatever. And it's fine and it's brilliant and it's lovely. And another one will do the mothering stuff with and you can do all of those things with all of them. But instinctively you kind of know which one will give you what you need for a particular thing.


And it's not as you love one more than the other, it's just that they are better at different things and work with you in a way that works for you with that particular thing, if you know what I mean.


Yeah. So I think it is difficult to make to have one friend and expect that one friend, that one person to meet all your expectations and needs. I think that is expecting a bit much.


So it's a circle of people you can relate to.


Yeah, I do have obviously more than one friend. Just this friendship is like changing so much recently that I didn't know what to make of it.


Yeah. Was it just this incident or has this been going on for a while. Well, it's been going on for a while, but I would just like I'm really I really appreciate all the input that I got, but I feel like it's just I think this is enough for me.


I don't feel comfortable talking about it or. Yeah, that's fine.


I want to hear you do a podcast this morning and think it's called The Art of Happiness. And it talked about friends and how they act as your advisors, but sometimes the advice they give you, the way they deliver that advice is not necessarily the way you expected or want it. And it brought to mind a situation I had recently with the work issues. And I went to bury three of my close friends, one my best friend, who I've known for, I guess 20 odd years, my brother in law and another very good friend.


And they all advised me, but in different ways. And this podcast talked about the different types of friends in the way that be revised. And one of them was somebody who sympathizes and agrees with everything you say. And I guess they tell you what you want to hear. There's another one that is like gently nudges you. And then there's the other one that is just completely slaps you and said, just get on with it, you know, stop feeling sorry for yourself.


So I don't know whether perhaps. The way your friend has delivered her advice is perhaps just not the way that you expected it and yeah, in our area.


Yeah, yeah, I was also thinking that maybe, just maybe I. Maybe what she said, I needed to hear that it just didn't feel nice, but as a relationship, it doesn't feel like a two way street anymore. So maybe those comments about that, you know, things are not.


Things are changing and change is good. So I think that has looked at it as well. And the other thing, the senator said that with different friends we can talk about different things. So maybe now that I don't. Have romantic relationship, and I don't want to have a romantic relationship at the moment in my life. Maybe this was the main theme that we connected through with her and because her life is still revolving around death.


Mine is not. Is not at the moment, is not. It doesn't give us the same. Type of interaction? I don't know, do you feel and ask? Generally, do you feel that in the times when you're single that you need more from friendships? Because the classic case is people get into a relationship and then sort of. Pay less attention to their friends who neglect the friendships. Yes, I think so. I think that's true to some degree, but then it it I suppose it comes down to whether your friends can also because when you are single, you do tend to have more time on your hands.


And when you're in a steady relationship with somebody, but that person is in your life all the time, unlike your friends perhaps. And they are obviously demanding some attention from you. I don't mean like a petulant child, but, you know, they're they're they're your hope for the love of your life. So you end up giving them a slice of the cake, as it were. And if you imagine your whole time as a cake, then you've given them whatever slice of the cake.


And there's that much less left for your friends. And so keeping the friendships going, you have less time to do the. It's easier if their mutual friends. Of course, because then you can talk about and if they don't know your friends at all, then it becomes even harder, I think, because then all of a sudden, why who is this person you're going with or what do they want? And so on and so forth. And just to give you an example, my my friend and we are just friends, she said to me the other day, she said, so does this mean at all when when when you hook up with somebody and you you know, you'll find a partner?


We are not going to be friends anymore because we do talk often. And, you know, you talk about anything and everything, really. And and it's going to us because, you know, we swap ideas and, you know, we sort of make each other reflect on our lives and things like that. And we both, for example. But of course, if I suddenly found somebody in my life and, you know, I was just kind of thinking, so does this mean I'm going to kind of go this grumpy and in a way that that's not true?


But also at the same time, how do you manage? Because now you've got another person, so you better manage the relationships and one of them is emotionally involved. Whereas with friends, yes, you are emotionally involved, but friends, it's not that it's not a romantic interest. So it's just, you know, kind interests. It's a different kind of closeness, if you like, so that the romantic one perhaps trumps it a little bit. And then that kind of makes your friends feel second class perhaps, which isn't right either because they've been there for you all this time.


How can you repay them with such unkindness? It may seem that way.


Mhm. And it's interesting when I think when I, when I was working I had two really good friends and it was because of the situation we were in and we were sort of in an environment. No we weren't happy, we didn't, we felt we were sort of up against things and so we were very close.


We still talk but then you know, we don't because you don't see them every day you are in contact. You don't have as much to say than something like when someone see something.


Yeah. And it's also so there's the one with the element of the friends where, you know, like. You know, you have less attention, and so, you know, you're kind of more focused on your romantic relationship and you sort of may some people may, you know, not focus on that as much. But then there's also the element of when you have like when you're in a relationship so you be married or whatever for like 20 years and you have social friends, then that's very awkward a lot of times because people feel that they need to side and people lose friends at the end of a relationship.


And it's kind of like they selling out property, they're selling up belongings, but they're also certainly not friends. So. Well, I think what we'll do is I think the better if we break out into smaller groups, because not everyone wants to talk in the big group and not everyone wants is, you know, gets a chance to to talk. So I think it might be better if we if we are right, if we break up for a bit to not break up the breakup, break out into the breakout rooms.


So what are we thinking about?


It is it might be interesting to discuss, like how you navigate life changes. So changes from of jobs, of going from being really close to someone, to then being in a romantic relationship and not necessarily being, you know, having as much focus or even the fact that you change. You've changed, you know, like as we change and grow certain friends. That were really important to us sometimes no longer, and I start to grate on us or as all the other thing is, when people are going through a breakup that can be quite draining to their friends because they keep having the same conversation.


You know, like I had discussions of people will be kind of.


Just want to talk about their problems. Just want to talk about what's going on in their life and not really have the time to listen and talk for someone else's. So I think if we go out, we'll go into smaller groups to discuss that. And there's also some of the things that have cropped up, have been searching out some things that might be interesting to share to to. Deep in the conversation. So everyone to we're going to recreate the rooms because many people.


So what do you reckon about 10 minutes? Time for. Rob, can you just repeat the summary, please, of the discussion?


Yeah. Okay, so it's basically about how do you navigate life changes, the changes of jobs, changes of relationship status, whether you've gone from being single to being in a relationship, to being in a relationship, to being single and where it's awkward whether someone was friends or someone who's needing a lot from you at the moment and you just want to talk about themselves and not so much interested in.


Sharing and listening to what's going on in your life. Did anyone have anything interesting to say in terms of navigating change and friendships? I'd say sometimes this is which is a relationship, is a type of a friendship. Sometimes we've got to know how much we're willing to put an effort into a friendship. Judges that we like, the amount of effort the people are it. Of the amount of respect they give it to the friendship. And when we draw a line and stop.


Make it as much effort of making any effort. And grow, you know, and choose to decide to continue with a smaller circle or. As I covered it when I joined. You know, whether we decide to try and expand global friendships, so do naturally, just by, you know, whether you change your job or meet someone you get on with, you know, or you start to go to a new gym, friendships or whether you decide to try.


And I would say for issue, but you might say I'll try a different job. I'll try and go shopping to a different. I'll try and join some other Meetup groups, so I won't say force is too strong a word, but whether you say you'll make some effort to encourage to grow or the friendships as well as. Yeah, that brings to mind a question, and I think it's a question that people don't normally ask and it's why do we have.


Relationships, why do we have friendships? Well, relationships do bring something other than friendships, you know, there's physical contact and the rest. And you know, these old elements that relationships, a relationship to be with a woman brings different factors that going for a beer with my best mate, I could go out for a romantic meal with a lady all I can. Go get drunk or go watch football, all right, and sometimes that might be something about me, a lady who.


Has no interest in football, so that's an interest of mine, so as an example, they may they may fill some of your what you want in life, what your sort of the basic jigsaw pieces might be a good phrase. But again, some of your friends are not family by fill in some of the other missing pieces, watching football, playing football, playing sports, some of your other interests. It's interesting what you know, while everyone is in break out groups, one of the things I was looking for was I saw a graphic and it was basically.


Said that a lot of people have problems in relationships and this was more geared towards work relationships, but it was basically saying that you need 12 different people in your in your life and you need people for different basically different things, like some that will cheer you up, some that will stimulate you, someone that will inspire you, you know, someone that will kick you back and some that were there to support you. But often we expect one person to to fulfill all of those roles.


It was something that I I learned this in psychology years ago, and it's. When I was looking up there, it was really hard to find. It's not really been discussed, but basically was Craighill did some research and they talked about four basic needs that we have relationships in. And what I'm talking about relationships. I'm talking about everyone that we were in relationship with. We are in a relationship and then there's romantic relationships for like a specific subset of that.


But basically, he talks about that. We meet, like he called them, affiliative mates, and we need them for emotional support. We need them for stimulation. Attention and social comparison. So it's like we need other people in terms of like a benchmark to know how we are in relationship to them. Is that something you've ever considered different relationships fulfill different needs. That's kind of what I was saying a few moments ago, it. And yet in a relationship in the past where I felt she wanted.


Too much of me, she relied on me too much, and that's exactly how a family member commented, said she needs to be more independent. Or maybe more independent of me, maybe might be might be a better phrase, is my understanding. Said I used to encourage you to liaise with her family and friends more. Because it's just. Think I was her life and like you just said, I want a certain boxes, I used to use that phrase often.


My friend do watch football with he ticks boxes and boxes and the right partner will take boxes that they're unable to take also. So, again, you've just had you know, I've got I'm trying to remember what the thing is. Maslow's hierarchy, which I think was similar to what you was saying before, we have a number of days where basic needs with food, water, et, I can't remember what level there are four or five stages of Maslow's hierarchy.


And hopefully don't rely on a partner for the basic needs, but you've just touched upon, you know, we won't we shouldn't rely on your friendships for everything and you should rely on your partner for everything. You need to find that right balance, I think, for both of them to work. But I have had just recently even a friend that was texting a woman and he seemed to be getting a bit. All right. You got a new woman and saying up, you're a bit like, you know, I've had it in both ways where the one would get jealous.


You're in touch with your friends and then vice versa. Friends get jealous that your attention and your time is getting a bit more diverted away from your friends. I think for me, I've never really looked at that breakdown of what I think that definition of friendship, I think, but it makes sense overall. I think I look to friendships for. To share ideas, to learn, learn from my friends, to teach as well, to share experiences, but I think also.


Like a sounding board, but also somebody that would tell me if they thought I was doing wrong or saying wrong. I'm not sure whether an adviser or disciplinarian, I don't know really is the word, but, you know, it's. I see friendships as two way. And as I said, you know, I don't. I don't expect somebody else to be responsible for my happiness. I know that, you know, that's my responsibility. I think people can one day have friendships and relationships if they keep on having great and healthy ones.


Did you ever. I didn't quite catch you, but you said, I think, yeah, if you were to replace it rather than me, put your. So I think people start to wonder what kind of friendships and relationships if you keep on having unhealthy ones.


Yeah, yeah, yeah, so we you know, when things are going well, everything's fine and it's only when, you know, when you start to hit roadblocks, so.


In terms of relationship problems and, you know, we're talking about friendships, how much of them are due to our expectations? And how much are actually to the relationship? From my personal point of view, having been in a long term relationship off and on for past. Almost 10 years, I know I've changed a lot in that time, and every time we've broken up, I've learned more about myself and I'd have to say the beginning of that relationship, I expected to sort of like the fairytale.


You meet the prince you're happy ever after and not realize that. You have to work at it constantly, but also it puts a lot of pressure on the partner, you know, societ, I've learned that I'm responsible for my happiness, know, my thinking now is completely different. So I think sometimes the pressures on our friendship or relationship has a lot to do with what your expectations are going into the. You know, I think in all relationship, I think basically we have to connect.


All you. Love and appreciate people to the extent that they're capable of. In that people. We have expectations, we want people to be certain things and they're not always capable or not always interested in living up to that. And so we have to. I think you have to accept people to the extent of their capability and willingness, if that makes sense. There are here we say understand the and problems are really when we expect something that someone isn't willing or capable of, and instead of holding to the expectation we should let go the expectation and how to the reality of what they want and what they can give us.


I think, like I said earlier as well, sorry, just going to. Carol. Collins said before, I think needs to be like a level of compatibility, even in friendships and to some extent.


Yeah, and I think that that capability, that compatibility changes, depending on your context, you know, that when we change jobs, when we change our relationship status, when we change lives, you know, when we have children and things like that, no one is completely sure it does.


I kind of hear what you say and say you got married or whatever. You still have to find the balance between having social time and having time in a relationship.


What I mean by that is friendships are most threatened when there's life changes.


So some friends, the the way that you would bond like is.


Three mutual goals, not even military goals, but you might enjoy doing something, and that's the basis that the the glue that holds your friendship together or in my instance, you know, like when when we were working, we spent a lot of time and we always had things to talk about. But when you're in entirely different situations and work and you don't necessarily have that, then you're not going to be communicating as much. You're not going to have the same friendship.


It's not like you're not still friends.


And I'm not talking to talk about as much. If the relationship might change. You mentioned something earlier about a similar situation where he felt the dynamic in the relationship was that he was used to talking a lot and his friend used to listen a lot. And then when the dynamic changed there, it was like, well, what do we do with the relationship? Because we're used to the same pattern all of the time.


Yeah. Is that kind of the same thing as what you're saying, but just in a different way? Yeah, I mean, it can be that or it can be that someone's someone's become a parent. And then suddenly everything they talk about is children and they're talking about. Yeah. Now, you know, I was doing this my child's termination and I have different friends. And then this friend that they used to do things that, you know, when I had a lot more time and were focused on that, then suddenly they don't really have the same things to talk about.


So it can be does not depend on the relationship, though, the because I mean, I've got no clue about any of this evil. Is that so you can have different levels of a relationship in terms of a friendship with someone? It can be quite surface level or it can go to different levels. And if it if it's just ones that you're talking about kids or something like that, it would be just like it wouldn't be a deep friendship, I'd guess.


Yes. If it could break down over just a subject topic.


Can I jump can I jump in? Because I've had personal experience with this, if I could say something. Hmm. Because you have quite a quite a few of my friends now have had children and I've remained in contact with one of them is fine. And yeah, you know, they're still the same people, but they're just a lot busier. But there was one friend that we were best friends, actually, but her life changed so much. And I think also underneath it was unclear communication also.


And I think. Yeah, got it, got a little bit. It became really hard work to be friends, to continue to remain friends and the availability and where we would normally go out and it was just it was just her life had changed completely. And so so had our relationship. It was like a different it felt like a different relationship because it was there was another person in that person's life. And so it's not the same as just garage.


We go out and have a drink or should we go and do this or do that. But also, you know, her living further away. But, yeah, I do think underneath it, this friend had had a history of being quite flaky anyway. And when she had the child that gave her even more reason to to be flaky and I got fed up with it in the end.


So would you say that would you say in that instance that the relationship wasn't that strong to start off with in that particular relationship?


It was pretty strong. I think it's tolerating. I think it's when you tolerate stuff like you take it and take it and then it gets to a point where you're like, it was it was my fortieth birthday. And she'd arranged it, arranged she'd arranged to come and see me. And because of that, I hadn't made plans. Like she couldn't dance at all. Well, spend the day together and we'll go out together and her partner will look after the baby so we could spend some time together.


And then half an hour before she said, Oh, I'm sorry, I can't come, you know? And it was just and also I think like a day or two before. So I'm bringing my partner and the baby and it's just this flaky communication. So, yeah, I guess it kind of came to a head, to be fair, you know, just sort of like the unspoken things that kind of annoy you. And I think maybe just ultimately it just after wives have enough sometimes, you know, I don't know if you can relate that.


Of unreliability eventually destroys trust that you hit the nail on the head, there doesn't the word trust is gone. That's right. Yeah, yeah. I mean I mean I mean, I think in some respects and. I mean, for me, a lot of my friends had children and families and my relationships, I suppose, with it, and they moved away. So there's there's a lot less proximity now. So, you know, and but but in some respects, when I meet them and when we have sort of, you know, it's like four weddings and a family stuff, when we all make up my family, it's as if I've never been away from them.


If you say and I know that if I needed anything, they'd help me. And I think they know that if they needed anything, I'd help. But I don't bring them up all the time. So friendships and maybe the proximity it was before it was because we were all in the same city.


But, you know, I suppose what you need your needs change, I suppose. And since I kind of been talking about this on and off tonight. But sometimes what you need from a friend when obviously if any of my friends don't live in London, if I want any of them to be someone to go for a point, and obviously they're going to have to drive about 60 miles. I don't like to go, which is not very good, but that's not going to work anymore, is it?


So obviously change. I can't really say, well, you know, you're not my friend anymore because you've you know, you're married and you've got kids and, you know, it's kind of like this changes I.


Yeah, with the unreliability, isn't it, if you're still kind of relying on someone to fill that need of the socialite's. You know, in some respects, not anyone else, but obviously, if you familiar, if I were to go for a beer on a Saturday and I'm not that much at the moment because, I mean, if I said to someone, let's meet for beer and I'm looking forward and then my counselor at the last minute, I'm going to be pretty paid off.


So I think it's to say I think like I let go of it for many years, the flakiness like my only friend.


And that I think. Yeah, but it does come to my birthday and I just it was just lame. It was just so lame. And then I think it was just the plus the poor communication. I just thought, yeah, it just kind of just kind of had enough, enough really, you know, but some several other friends that I've got kids and you know, it's fine. You just don't speak to them as much. Doesn't doesn't mean does it mean anything.


Does it. People are just busy.


I mean kids do change and I think it's it's like said that someone there hasn't got kids. I'm not bothered about being at home because I've got to look after a little person just all over, you know, like they said, I'm going away. So I just want to go out and get, you know, so horrendously drunk or whatever you your priorities to change. Yeah. You know, it's not there, but it's just part of life. Yeah.


I don't hold it against me. I was going to ask people really spoken about social media as well as when Rob was talking about. These needs that friends can satisfy, and I think all of those more or less could actually be solved by social media, so you could still have friends that you met with online and they could solve all of those things you mentioned. But there must be something else. I think human beings, inherently social creatures. I mean, I have got quite a lot of time in me.


Basically, you take no man is an island, as they say, and I suppose but I think there's some requirement in us as well, some sort of instinctual requirement for proximity that I just mean like sexual in a sexual relationship. I mean, we need other human beings. It has to be something. On the call, an X Factor. But you know what I mean, there's just something maybe disconfirms to some sort of best deal. But for that sort of a great for a society, I think human beings need as well, basically.


I'm just yeah, no, I think I think as a society, we as a species, we've evolved from, you know, around the campfire and learning to trust and we chemically biochemically we need to oxytocin from each other. There's a level I think you can get it on social media, but I think it's it's. It's not as real. Maybe it doesn't, it doesn't, because it's the thing with me is a lot, I trust my friends implicitly and I don't have I don't have millions and millions of friends.


And I have watched friends and stuff on social media. But my work friends, I kind of can get that because I do trust them. And it is Israel. Can I ask when you say social media friends, these are actual people.


I mean friends. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.


That's my friends who now live in London anymore. And I'm in contact with them on social media, but I've never really been one for long telephone conversations. It's the. You can consult with people. I mean, obviously this week I've been saying all their kids go to school, so that's interesting to see how they get on and see other kids.


I personally use social media less nowadays than before, but I use it to keep in touch. So I've done a lot of I spent a year and a half backpacking around the world, so I met a lot of people. I was traveling and I also have family overseas. And I set up Facebook, my Facebook page when I lived in Hong Kong. I ended up working in Hong Kong for a while and I use that medium to keep in touch with all my friends from around the world.


And as you said, you see it sometimes it's just pictures being posted of what they're up to. It's just nice to stay in touch.


I think that's that's one of the positive things of social media, is that you're able to see an insight into their lives, you know, like people going back to school and across the world and different things happening.


You're able to you you whereas 10, 15 years ago, you would have no idea what they were saying. You might have a phone conversation and they talk to you. But I think that part of social media brings that home so that you have an insight into what's going on with them. And it's only the highlight reel.


Yeah. Oh yeah. And some and also and it's and this I think he really hit on something is that. Yes. Because there's the positive side of it and then there's the negative side in that there's a lot of fakery in the Facebook and Instagram.


And one of the things you talked about, like trusting and things like that and the real problem that people have in relationships is what they call frienemy is not the people that hire you. And it's not the people that are really close to you. It's the people that you're not sure about. So the person that you work with and you're not quite sure what they would say behind your back, that's where really causes people much of their angst in relationships. And yeah, they could in front of me frenemies because you're not quite sure.


And it's the same thing. I think in relationships you have people and not be attached to which which category they're in. But they're in. Yes. No, but never. Maybe it's the maybe that gives us all of our problems is why people stay stuck in relationships, because it's like maybe he'll be good, maybe he'll change. And it's been clear of which they're in. And I think that I'm not really one for half measures. I mean, one of the things I would say and one of the breakout rooms was that I don't think I've ever had a friendship that's been affected by any life change.


I think that's because maybe I'm a little bit slower at making friends. But the friends I do tend to make Newton's laws to be fair. But I may not have really close relationships seeing them every week or on the phone. I really trust these people. And for me, trust is just everything. And if someone betrayed me or someone lied to me in my mind and they would move into the category you're talking about, that's the I. I just don't tolerate that.


There's no way I'm going to tolerate someone like, you know, what can I just say sorry. Off the back of what you said about frenemies and about, you know, what they saying about you behind your back. And it's just like maybe ground. It's not nice. I just from relationship to specific relationship, I remember observing some years, but not one of mine. But it's like the dynamic between them is I've been sort of I don't know if you can call them best friends or close friends for a long time.


And there is this element of frenemy even between it is kind of I don't know what it is. It's sort of like. Is almost like really there's a bit of bitterness and sniping at each other and, you know, it's casual putdowns and it just doesn't seem like an authentic relationship or one that really brings the best out of them both. It kind of feels like a bit of a push pull for them.


Um, I've seen some some female relationships I have seen in men as well. But with men, I think it tends to be like what make relationships. So it's not really clear how close they are to boxing. But I've seen female relationships where women just seem to be as threatened. You know, literally they do. And then suddenly they just it happens like the tiniest thing and they just turn into, like Cain and base. It's mental as a guy, it's really difficult to understand how one little thing and just completely tigo about love and to hate.


I know, I know exactly what you know what I think it's right. I think it's almost like you said, have relationships with romantic relationships, how sometimes people just stumble into these relationships. And I think it can be the same with friendships. People can kind of stumble into these relationships and then it's kind of like almost like they use in each other. And I think that's the time to front me in front of my ship. All right.


Yeah, you see, they can seem like these really long lasting sort of good friendships to a certain degree, not necessarily good friendships where they can seem like that's I don't know how to explain it.


Yeah, you mean that if people out, it's because what was talking about what people made of those things was like if somebody gives you drive. So I suppose if you have, if you like being around people who you're competitive with and that's definitely a thing because, you know, so maybe you only like them to know if it's casual putdowns.


Can you classify that as a real friendship? Well, there's always the put downs, some of the more than you, some of the more bands and you say group.


So it's bloody horrible stuff. I said, but they're good friends, but they just, you know, they put horrible practical jokes.


I really know this is this is a thing talking about I think Sasha is talking about an uneven relationship and some people use others to build themselves up. So they're always denigrating the other person to make themselves feel good. And that is not a true friendship because one party is hurt.


No, but sometimes it can be both of them are doing it with children or both. But they're they're both. It's destructive. Yeah. Yeah. No, it's not it's they're not supportive. And what they're doing is probably one upmanship games all the time.


You know what? Sometimes it's almost as if it can be a bit they can be support if we travel around some things to keep the relationship there as well at the same time, if that makes sense. But it just doesn't feel authentic at all. I think Ken, I think Alan said nothing does touch them as well. It's about. How secure you are yourself about how exactly how how how solid, how confident you feel, how worthy you feel in yourself, and if you don't feel that you are using, like in terms of these affiliative means, using other people as a benchmark, and if you feel that they're doing better than you feel, that you have to step up.


So, yes, I think all relationship problems are really problems with yourself. So I said, sorry, go ahead, Sasha. I think you might be talking about co-dependency. Yeah, well, one of them is definitely a co-dependent of this relationship I'm talking about.


Yeah. And I think that some people actually do enjoy that conflict, and that is what keeps them together.


All right. Do they happen to be housemates or just just long, longstanding friends that have been friends for a long time? I had a friend like that, and I. Just cut her loose. And it was a situation where in. She felt that she needed to get a dig in at any. And not when we are not when we are alone. But in public places, humiliation type of thing, by trying to yeah, and being a lawyer, you know, she's quick off the mark, she's very sharp and all the rest of it.


So it's like if you say something and it's not quite accurate or it is, you haven't said everything. She's going to jump at you to show to put you in a in an uncomfortable situation, especially if she knows it's something that you highlight in the imperfections.


Yeah. But not only in imperfections, but sometimes things that you don't really want to talk about in that particular group and you speak to that person alone. But in the group you don't want to elaborate. But she's going to put it in such a way that you are going to be. You're going to be uncomfortable. You're going to look as though you are not forthcoming, and so you're are less than maybe less than being fully honest or something. So you're at a disadvantage and unfortunately.


Well, maybe I don't know how you look at it, but as far as I'm concerned, if you are going to try to put me down. And make me uncomfortable, but at the same time, you want to use me whenever you're miserable, you're going to have me on the phone for three hours. Oh, we'll be miserable. My life is blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And you are so, such a sympathetic person.


You're my best friend, but yet you're trying to put me down. I don't want anything to do with you.


I am done. So I said that you're out of my life. She's tried several times to. Oh, Sandra, Merry Christmas over coming to London. Oh, how nice. Have a wonderful time. I don't want to know I'm not going to be there because you are not going to make life is too short. I don't need you to make me unhappy. I can make myself unhappy with. I don't need your help.


So still, I think she's got the message, though, so and it's her insecurities that she's trying to put on top of me.


And I will not be needed to do the work on her. So. Exactly. Work on yourself. I don't need your burden. That's the bottom line.


So did so did she did you talk to her? Did she realize that she had that effect on you? Because some people can do this and they don't actually realize, well, she was deliberate.


She has been deliberate. Listen, I'm sorry, but I would say these women can be bitches. Women can be very competitive and we need to accept it.


As for what it is. Right. And I have known her for ages and we've come together in the UK and we gravitated towards each other as to Dominican's, you know, blah, blah, blah, the whole nine yards knowing each other from from Jamaica.


OK, you don't want to be dealing with someone's angry all the time, do you. Exactly. This is the point. Their insecurities. I am who I am and on a normal circumstances is a very confident woman, OK, because she's been we had very good jobs.


So in her professional life, she's confident. But with me it's all of a sudden it's a competition. Where are you competing with me? I'm not competing with you. You're my I think you're my friend, OK? And it's.


I'm doing isn't listening. I'm glad to have you as my companion companion, as a friend, and then when we go into. A situation where there are people around you are going to try to make me feel as though I'm not your friend, but when we are together, I'm your friend.


It's it's not. So I'm either your friend or you treat me with respect and I treat you with respect all the time. Or I. I am not having a discussion with her at all. In other words, that's it. She's out of my life. Sorry, folks, that is just me. Very well, I guess what Jim was saying and what did come across my mind is, is it that point? Could you have said to her, pulled it to one side and said, you know, I really felt this way about you doing this before and seeing her response to that.


And if she responded well or if she didn't respond well, she doesn't listen.


She's not one of those people who knew she wouldn't have responded.


Well, I've seen her in action. I've seen her in action. I've had to talk her down for her reaction with other people so I can infer from that that she would deal with me the same way, if you understand, because that is near you. You've been through it with other people, with her. So I know her her standard response and she would not want to hear it.


It sounds like she thinks she's superior than other people. Yeah.


Yes. And then when she feels when she comes up on somebody who is not taking it and I believe in myself, you're not going to put me down. It's maybe I was a bit of a hard not to crack for her, so I did.


But everything is out and I'm not sure it's necessary because she she felt she was superior to you. If she really felt superior, she she just wouldn't feel the need to to criticize you or humiliate you.


Well, I guess more likely she felt inferior and she tried to put itself into the position.


Yeah, it's it's a it's a superior and not inferior at all together, I think. And so it's had there was an element of insecurity and.


I don't know yet. All kinds of stuff, but yeah, so she felt intense and sense of like the white guys operate. So I don't know if, you know, if people understand what a wingman is or what you understand as a wingman. So a wingman is like your friend when you go and try and pick up girls, whether there's a boot. And quite often you see that one will be the sort of more chatty one and they'll sort of make jokes out of putting the other one down in some respects.


And you don't do that. No. And if you if you look at like I'm just thinking of this, I should think if you look at like like comedy partnerships as well, there's generally always one to the one down and the other one's like the straight man is the absolute best. It just to me while you're saying it, because because it seems that the person's motivation in your case is that they're trying to make themselves feel come across as better to other people by putting you down.


And I can understand why you wouldn't want that. But in in some in some respects, in some relationships develop and there's nothing nasty about it, I suppose.


Well, I was the equivalent of the wingman for her fun lot of times, OK, because she wanted a relationship. OK, I'm married and I need that Carcillo. But she was trying to date this gentleman and he. He he he was married and all the rest of it estranged, but all kinds of stuff, but the bottom line was that I would be what's the equivalent of a wingman for a female owned girl? I don't know. If I was going to I would support her.


I would go with her. I'm not interested in anybody else, but I'm there to support her. And I'm the I'm enabling, if you know what I mean. So I'm there in that doing in those circumstances. She was fine. She was wonderful. Maybe because she needed me. So she had to be nice to me or she had to, you know, whatever. But in another circumstance where I'm OK, I am gregarious, I am friendly, I am chatty, I will come into a room and I will talk to somebody.


I have no problem with that. OK, and but for her, I think maybe that was just a little bit too much because she was not quite like that. And so I would get into a lot of I have a lot more people talking to me and I'll be talking to a lot more people. And I think that was so. So, in other words, to break that down is to put me down.


Yeah. With the what if it sounds like it's ending it all is this and wish you could see something in you.


And she didn't like it. She wanted to take it away from you rather than building herself to the point of being able to do that herself and share it with you.


Sounds like you definitely better off out of that one. So I have no regrets.


And it sounds like she was just using you, really. And I said good on you for not taking that crap.


Now, at the risk of of annoying all the women, though, I think women, because women are very open and in a way that I think men are. So I think you ladies, you do share your insecurities with your best friends. And so I think that women quite often do use those insecurities against you and put them against maybe even sometimes at a subconscious level.


I mean, no, it it's good to know that you can be vulnerable is different.


I think there's a difference in in terms of your insecurities and how you share them. You tend to share those things with people who you have a genuine connection with and who you build up trust over time, not anybody. So that person, you feel secure that they will not use what they know about you. And still, OK, my best friend, as I call her, who lives in Miami.


We talk every day with whatever we send messages and all the rest of it, and back to what you were talking about earlier, the when Rob was talking about humans and oxytocin and needing, you know, using social media, social media just keeps you connected on one level. But I can tell you, I we had not seen each other for 20 years, OK? And she came to the UK last year and spent a month with me last year, April.


And when I met her at Gatwick Airport, we were in floods of tears. We could not part. We were hugging each other. People were just standing there looking at us. It was just crazy because we had not touched held each other just. Connected and looked in each other's eyes for 20 years, you will not believe the flood of emotions that came came through and for the entire month we were inseparable. We started to quarrel after a while.


Of course do. But when she left, I'm telling you, we were both.


It was just you just feel just totally deflated because it's like this other half of you has gone and you talk and you talk and we still talk. But there is nothing that can make up for that physical. Coming together of a few months beat in a romantic relationship that many of his best friends. As as an aside, I think people. You don't necessarily have to tell people what your insecurities are, they can sense it. If they're observant and if they're into you, they really care about you.


Yes, they sense it. Yeah, I agree. Or even if they don't care about you or if they want to use it against you.


Yeah. I think going back to I can't remember what it was you said, Sasha, but it reminded me because you mentioned Stan Tuck in a couple of times. And I think really, when you're looking at relationships, it's really like he says, it's really two people's nervous systems interacting with each other. And that's really what determines the uniqueness and the dynamics of what the relationship will be. Yeah. Was used the day and this was it was a romantic couple, was it?


I think it was a romantic couple and then put them under a stressful situation or that it was about to go to a stressful appointment or something. And they put them under a scanner and they had three different people come hold this person's hand while they were under the scanner. Somebody it was a stranger and a partner. And they can't remember what the other one was. But the stress levels were just like almost nonexistent with the familiar person holding the hand while they were going into this.


So it's just like even kind of through the oxytocin voice, the stress, the the nervous systems. One can see somebody else's nervous system just just like that. Whereas if it was a stranger, it just wouldn't have the same impact because the trust is there and analysis of it.


And also, like, you know, Sandra is talking about if you're in that kind of relationship with someone where you don't really know where you are, what that's doing is creating the stressful chemicals, anxiety in the.


Yeah, yeah. You may be in like a peaceful state and they're putting you on edge. And so it's all changing, changing your state depending on the levels of trust and security and. That you have with some. So it's about recognizing then what influences are, who is good for you, who who makes you feel good, who is good for you as a friend?


What I mean is how do you decide that this person is not creating stress in you? And what to do about it, even though on the surface you're supposed to be friends, you bear the label of friends, but you feel anxious or you are not relaxed, sometimes you get to the point where you don't really want to see. It's a kind of a groan. Oh, I don't really want to talk to him or her, you know, you're glad to see them.


How do you put all of that together and resolve that kind of interaction with somebody else? It's like, you know, somebody touched upon before this compatability bit like it's a different, you know, it's just not a it's a relationship to a different level is the opposite sex saying, well, I got friends of the opposite sex, to be honest. Again, it's somebody who either helps you to grow or helps you to share. You share each other's burdens and problems either just to get them off your chest or help you to resolve them or help you to resolve yourself.


By giving advice, all their opinion. But does imagine politics are. Immagine pointed out about codependency, so if you feel that you are dependent on the on the person in other ways, how do you resolve that?


Was it not legal aid dependent on some friends, but not depended to. You know, I really miss some friends. I really miss some family and some friends. I feel that I've upset them. I try to friends. I try to resolve it because I appreciate their friendship or theirs. I'm not so bothered, although I'm bothered about most because I suppose I am others, you know, like.


Right, I'll leave it. I've I've given up. I'm getting to the last straw. Well, I just said, you know, there's a number of factors there where we say, you know, that's what friends do for you. They share your burden. They give you the help you. Quick update, Fred, I was in hospital two years ago. And I don't know whether I dropped to him, but I've been in hospital for a few days and my friend was on day off and I was incapable of driving and he offered to go and pick me up from hospital.


And sit with me because I shouldn't be left alone after coming out of hospital, just sit with me while we were both watching TV. So is a fair share, the burden is off with help, and at some point I hope to repay the six months later he's rolling to Warrington 50 miles on a text me says Any chance of a left, but I will give you petrol costs. What you say. You know, I know you've got a car available, you know, where you could help me.


It wasn't doing it for an exchange, but just said people down line. Like, that's how I repay the freight, the friendship. It didn't take, isn't it? Yes, and it's the same with proper relationships, you know, that you intend to spend the time with an opposite sex person. You know, some people it depends on what balance you want the percentages personally, because you could still have a 60 40 friendship. I mean, it might be 60 40 one day and then the next week.


Sixty four the other way, but maybe it's wet. And I think Rob might go down that route personally a bit ago. And I've been in it all the way to where it says, at what point do you draw that line? Said, I'm sick of this being 80, 20. At what point you say no about enough is eight, 20 this week, but it's never 28 in the opposite way, it's just always be putting more into the friendship and it's the.


About the I'm happy with I don't think relationships should be that difficult. I think if it is an issue and you bring it up as an issue, it usually should get resolved pretty nicely. And if it does, and it's a bit of a red flag. I don't think really I mean, obviously, there's going to be problems in any type of relationship. I don't think there's supposed to be that difficult, that difficult. And I break think that much effort into chaos.


And then is it really was. I mean, I think I mean, to sort of go back to Sandra's question to me, I think space is quite a good factor. I mean, there's no you know, there's the old thing about absence makes the heart grow fonder. But I'm a great believer that that if there is love there and trust that it will overcome, you know, and sometimes it might take a week, sometimes it might take a month, sometimes it might take a few years or something.


But good friends, I think, will always come back and then they come back that you realise that they're good friends as well. So, you know, I think maybe having a big showdown, sometimes you can force a settlement if you sue and mean it may be a full stop on something which sometimes people just need to get their shit together. And, you know, and then I suppose if they have genuine security, like, as Sandra said as well, and that's what's causing this, then they're not allowed to do that.


Because if they've been really horrible to you and you don't bring them for a week and suddenly, like, ringing you up in name, then again, that probably gives you flex, doesn't that saying whatever that it was going on this. I mean, any friendship should be able to withstand a bit of spice. I think that shouldn't cause any problem.


I think. I think you can't be dependent on any relationship. I think you have to be interdependent. And I think you have to be willing to let go of any relationship, romantic relationship, friendship, even family and equally. You have to be willing to upset people, raise, isn't it? Yeah, and it's like if you if you're really focused on someone's like if you're really there for someone. So, for example, friends generally give terrible relationship advice and it's because, you know, someone someone breaks up with someone and they're upset and so much people are like they're upset.


How do we stop them feeling so bad? Oh, well, he he was he was a bastard. It was all his fault. No, you were fine. You and were really good advice is like OK, maybe what part with you. Let's not blame everything because you're not going to learn anything, you're not going to grow and sometimes you have to be willing to lie.


Is it really a friendship if all you're doing is making someone feel good about themselves, you know, like when it's not true. And sometimes you have to challenge people and for their own benefit. So, for example, many of them, if you felt this, but many people feel stuck, you know, like life is a journey of evolving and we want to go and do different things. But sometimes people are stuck because they don't want to lose the friendships, because maybe they're going to be in a different.


They're going to make their friends feel more threatened. They're going to not have as much time to spend with them. They're going to feel like they're in a different sort of. My social class. I don't know what you want to say, like how you say that and in the friendship for the wrong reasons. Yeah, yeah. Or changing who you are to stay in that relationship, because I never noticed an unhealthy.


But so many people are scared to to do something because it's going to change. And, you know, like people say, oh, you're fine as you are, you don't need to do that. Why you want to do that? You know, why you suddenly dressing different? Why are you doing these class when you know that's something that you personally want to do? I think a good way to tell whether you are co-dependent with someone is if you entirely base your happiness or rely on them for you to be happy or rely on them for entirely for your positive mental health.


Yeah, yeah, know, the way I see that is like you have to make you the only person you can really know what you need and plot your path and have any control over is yourself. And you have to that's the bit that you have to focus on. And then everything else fits in as you know, like it will reveal itself how it fits in. If that makes sense. So I'm sorry I didn't take that in, so that lost again, so you have to make your your happiness, your life, what was happening to you?


That has to take precedence over every kind of relationship. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And then one of yourself first. Yeah. Yeah. No, it's not so much being selfish as sometimes you might agree. Sometimes it might threaten someone. OK, that relationship's not going to sustain it, but you can't change who you are and where you are, what you're doing in life just because it means you might have to drop a relationship or the.


Mm hmm. Yeah. I mean, like you said about the one we were talking about relationships a few weeks ago, and you were sort of saying that for a relationship to go on for a long time, you need new shared experiences that, you know, I've met a lot of my friends because of certain experiences I've experienced with them. But then over the years, because we've stayed friends, we've replaced that with new experiences. So new memories with which to think about basically.


And hopefully it will happen in the future as well. You know, and I suppose it's the same, isn't it? And I'm kind of thinking about when you make small talk with people at work, obviously, you know, you I suppose you have to talk to people sometimes that maybe sometimes they'll only be one thing you talk about. You know, it might be, I don't know, like something. And that's the only thing you have to say to each other for like ten years that you could apply.


Obviously, that relationship doesn't need to move out, does it? And still needs you need new shared experiences, I suppose, to keep it fresh.


I ask, unless you had such a really strong, momentous thing that it's just sometimes you can have that as well. And maybe if you go travelling with someone and you have like, you know, you almost get shot by them being guerrillas or something, basically, and you overcome that. And maybe that would be enough to carry you through it just from experience. I agree with that, and that's what I used to say to one of the exes said, you ain't going to be invited or nights out, meals out Christine's weddings.


If I spend seven days a week just in your company, yours and yours is a little bit sad because Bigland, people will. Invite you either on just last night's are couples night are for future occasions, so was saying it's got and then also generates conversation. I go to play pool for a bill to team in a pub. Then you've got something fresh to talk about also, also always just been on this holiday. Oh, I'd like to go there rather than what we have for dinner today.


So it's more interesting conversation by mingling with all this and learning, you know, and giving ideas. I said it's good for a relationship and I printed off something off about four years ago. So I'm kind of going down the route saying, you know, it does keep things fresh and keeps things creative. They might say, oh, I've been to this restaurant. You can say, oh, I didn't know about that. Why don't we go sometime?


So it allows you to grow, I want to say, but also to miss each other as well. I like having I think someone said earlier on, you know, needing space like it keeps things fresh. Doesn't some you know, it's important. It's like refueling yourself. It might just, you know, it might fuel you both to say, yeah, the principle, I've not seen you for what date? Even if it's, again, if you took it to another level and you went on a holiday weekend, the way, you know, is it abroad, I've missed you for three days.


Yeah, I've missed you, too. And I possibly might have read a post. Rebecca is it's better to be with someone that encourages you to go and enjoy yourself on the fall to go and do things that you want to do.


Mm hmm. Yeah, to the bone that you want to go in spending time away from them rather than encourage you to enjoy yourself. Get get you to who you are is possibly going back to maybe what maybe Rob said earlier to say don't change yourself too much. And, you know, people come and go, oh, you never seem to be you're not you anymore. A long line anyway.


Yeah, other people define you by the picture they have of you, but there's a thin line between evolving for yourself and evolving to please another person. And it's to recognize which one is about you. And what you and the other things that you would do to to please the other person, and I think there are some things that you can do to please others without betraying yourself. But I think you need to be true to yourself and understand that if you're doing something that is not you, you are destroying a part of you by not being yourself and you.


I think the first responsibility you have is to yourself to be the best that you are. And that means the things that will make you evolve into a better a better you if if it's not agreeable. To who you're with, then you really should take stock of that relationship because it means that you're going to be short changing yourself to hold onto that relationship if it's not pleasing to the other person. Because sometimes wee wee, wee, wee, wee change or we evolve and the other person can feel threatened by it because you become, um.


More than what they bargained for in terms of. What they need, and it's not that it's a threat, it just that it might make them feel insecure that they're not they're not good enough anymore, that they need to also do something to up their game. And so what is it that they are being forced to do? What they do they don't really want to do because they can't where they are.


We all need to check our own emotions, don't we, and how we feel about all the people and the things that they are accomplishing and whatever, or that, you know, what's going on for them in their lives. And I think it does need to feel empowering like that. It's creating sort of this feeling of like, yeah, we can grow with our life and not a feeling of you need to stay where you are and never make any progress.


I think also, if you try to be the best person, the best, best version of yourself that can have a beneficial effect of that can be that other people then try to be the best version of themselves. Sounds quite idealistic, but I don't know if you know what I mean, I don't know if I've explained myself well, that's what I definitely would definitely agree with that.


I'm sure basically she says she says very similar things. Oh, give me five pounds for my opinion. I'm listening to you out of I sky like a to, you know. Sasha, what did you mean by. Can you clarify what you meant meant by what you just just said?


If that's OK, I assume that you should feel empowered and so say, like, I'm trying to think of a really sort of duffed example. Say, like you've got a mate, right? You've both got the same job, both in the same position. And he's happy. He's comfortable in the relationship as long as you're not progressing further than he's progressive. Now, if you were a relationship, we should all empower each of you something good for somebody else.


We should help pick them up if something is good for all you know, friends should help because, you know, it shouldn't get to a point where, you know, oh, they're doing better than me and then they can't. We're not checking our own emotions. Yeah, well, you're making a really good point, what you're actually talking about there is something called control. So when somebody has more than somebody else and money or power or prestige or whatever, then that puts that person in a place to enable us to control somebody else.


So especially within the likes of domestic violence or domestic abuse relationships. There there'll be an element of control. Control is often formed by pulling the other person down the door. Not not the other person doesn't necessarily have to have more money or be more successful. In many ways, they will probably be less successful. Most likely they'll probably hate themselves. But in order to dig themselves up, they will then call names. You know, they will do all sorts of derogatory behavior to ultimately gain control over that other person.


And that can happen in in friendships because every relationship doesn't matter whether it's sexual or not. That's by the by a relationship relationship. And, you know, it's up to ourselves to do our part within. I like to say the phrase of what's my part in this? You know, because people will always say, oh, she's not. And Ethan. What they don't they're not quick to tell you what they've done themselves because they don't want to accept any responsibility for it on the other show, that we can't be responsible for change in other people.


You've got no power whatsoever. So for the likes of ourselves, we have a comment on this. We might come away completely enlightened, amazing people on a week of friends, family, lovers who aren't that way. Well, there's nothing that we can do to change that, because if we did, then we would be in our power and our control over them and then turn into that very thing that we're trying not to be.


Yeah, no, I understand that. I'm just basically saying it's a good way to gauge and to use as a marker in relationships to know whether the other person is is is really empowering towards us or not or whether they're only happy with the relationship as long as we're not progressing, if that makes sense.


I think I think that I think I wanted to mention what the green eyed monster jealousy. I think that's another thing that obviously you wouldn't expect a friend to be jealous of another friend. So if they had got a better paid job or something like that, a friend should expect another friend to be happy for them. Shouldn't I suppose that, you know, there's a kind of element of jealousy there? I think because I don't like the fact that they've got something else and that's not OK.


We're all human as well at the end of the day. And we could all experience not jealousy. But what I'm saying is at that point is whether the friend is, is or ourselves are dealing with that. We're checking our own emotions and we're not passing that on to all the people in a negative way. Does that make sense if it did come up because, you know, we're all human, we're all going to experience jealousy at some point over something or other, is whether we can check our own emotions and make sure that's not being, you know, harming anybody else.


It manifests into behavior is what you say. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.


I think people people aren't always right about what's best for another person that people aren't always right about what will empower someone else. But I guess what you're saying is they need to be the heart needs to be in the right place. Yeah, I think the main thing I was pointing out, this is a good gauge to know whether somebody really wants good for you or not or is it just to do with their own emotions how far you get with your own progression?


Also, I guess it depends on what you cross is empowering because to one person that progress to always to be able to always grow and to progress in things in any way, shape or form.


We've got an emotionally, mentally, you know, in a monastery, in all any any job in absolutely all aspects of your lives. I think they've not gone off the air.


I was just going to say. In terms of like, I know everybody doesn't have the same relationship with family members. So if it was to say the word mom, the word mom would mean something different to me than it was to somebody else.


But for me, what you've just said, this is a really good point, because my mother wouldn't have any qualms whatsoever about any successes that I had. So if I made a lot of money about all of the friends, if I was like a very popular. She would be happy with whatever positivity I had in my life, and I can't say that all of my friends would be, you know, would feel ashamed of what she does. And, yeah, a lot of them, what the majority would, but not all of them.


But I do agree with you.


It is it is a good gauge because really a true friend should want the best for you, because if the not enough that produces envy, which is negative, it produces jealousy, which is negative. If you are a true friend, why would you want anything negative? You would only want positivity for someone who is supposed to be your friend.


I do. I think there's. Sometimes people some of the worst, you know, talks about people give their friends sometimes to give the worst relationship advice, and it's because and parents are often guilty of this because they have an idea of what's best for someone they're trying to push people into. Like, you should do this career. You should do that. And then, like, I hate it. I don't really don't want to do that. This is like my dream and I think.


And that's a combination of what Sasha and New Zealand have said is, is that it's about growing, but then it's also about letting go of the control so that people can grow in their own. In their own direction, and it's the willingness to let someone make mistakes, to let someone go free what you think might cause them pain in order to follow their path. And just to pick up on what you said, Sasha, I wrote years ago about something and the idea I was trying to get across was we have a you know, companies are all worried about carbon footprint of the pollution that we create.


But when we don't deal with our own emotions, we create emotional pollution. And so much of our interaction and our relationships are framed on the basis of we're not able to deal with our own emotions. And so we pass that on to others. Yeah, sort of negative energy seeping out. It's called emotional transference. Reaction formation, isn't that when you sort of you know, when you you act like you hate someone else when you don't really, but it's you dealing with a label to deal with your emotions.


So, yeah, but but in whatever we decide. So, like, it may not be direct from the relationship, I've had a bad day. So I come home and I'm snappy and, you know, I'm going to the shops and I'm like, rude or whatever. And that in that way that then, you know, has a toxic effect on someone else. And so this whole spread of like if you look at the problems in the world, they're basically problems of not being able to deal with your emotions, people grabbing power, people greed, all of these things, because we don't deal with our own emotions.


Something I just wanted to say as well. Based on what you mentioned a second ago about. Friends not being good at how can you deal with relationship problems? I saw somewhere I think it was on a TED talk. Now, that's one of the one of the deciding factors. Whether you get divorced or not is if your friends have a lot of friends have been divorced or not, because if that's your way of your whole social groups, way of relating to things, you know, it's going to impact you because you all have the same sort of views you share the same sort of price with each other and how they dealt with it.


They're going to share the advice with you. And we like what you said it was. It was that if your all of your friends around you have got bad relationships or getting divorced, then you're very likely to be exactly the same, because if the role models that you have around you. And it becomes a nuisance who's going to say you, a wise man done with feels he becomes or becomes a fool if he sits down with wise.


So you're making a good point. And and we all feed into the energy that's that's around. This is what the message is there. So people will more often bring it down to the level than the successful person left in those below the other, because because of the negative energy, that negativity, unfortunately, is infectious. That's why when you go into the likes of officers, you get a lot of gossip going on and gossip is negative, isn't infectious as well.


So I'd say with the herd mentality that we have to be aware of. Yeah, definitely, I think sometimes it's unintentional, though, certainly when. I have talked to friends. About my divorce and all that I could sense in the way they were talking to me, the emotional baggage from their own relationships. So I never sort of relating back because I knew the history of some of the breakups straight. I could say, well, what you are telling me is actually laced with your own problems and man saying it with malice.


But it was almost like they were reliving their problems again and kind of saying, yeah, well, you know, I couldn't do it. But you do this kind of thing and it's like, well, actually that my situation isn't the same as yours, so I'm not going to do that. But thanks for the advice anyway. So you're right in that you can get bad advice, but you also have to, I think, have a responsibility to try to step back.


And it's not easy if you're emotionally compromised or to step back and look at the situation and say, well, is this actually right for me? You know, where there's more? Where does my moral compass point? So I think someone has to go back to the hall at the beginning when we were discussing different friends have different roles in our lives. Yeah, and sometimes you have to choose who you advise for a particular thing, because, as you say, if if you if you're friends, if a couple of your friends have had bad experiences, that the that is the lens that they're going to be looking through and giving you advice, whereas you might have other friends who have had more positive experiences in terms of dealing with a similar problem to you.


It would be divorce because you do have people who have good divorces. I think I will I will probably be one of them. Hopefully.


I'm hoping they'll give you a more even handed advice that is probably more helpful to you in terms of dealing with it and not coming up.


Totally traumatized at the other side, because sometimes when people give you very strong and very I don't want to say yeah, but it's to get back at the other party and the whole nagging and everything, and you come out less than what you could have been if you took a more even handed approach.


And those friends would support you with that. I probably the ones that you should seek out more than the other ones are for me. I find sometimes sometimes I have to take myself back. No advice from any of you because it's all going to be not what I want to hear and I will deal with it myself.


I suppose the point I was making is that sometimes it can be given with good intentions, but you just have to be aware that it's not the right one and you are responsible for your own life at the end of the day. And you have to try and be careful.


You make the right decisions, but sometimes you're traumatized and you really need support. That's the thing. And I think that is where this, you know, who do you trust? Who can you really trust? Who can you depend on? Really comes into into the picture because there are lots of things that happen and and you can handle it. A little support from your friends is good, but if you don't have much, you still can manage. But there are certain things that you really, really need your friends to support you and and and, you know, and give you and give you that helping hand.


And I don't know how do you decide who is who is the best person or the best set of them?


The only problem with advice which goes back to negotiating with Iran is is looking at something by the level of you don't understand them, which is which is very limited in life. You will often make the mistake of judging things by what we say, but the problem doesn't necessarily exist from the things that we can see. The problem is existing from the things that we can't say. We're going to somebody who will provide the story to the story is this person is A, B and C.


What do you think I should do?


What level of information is even less than what we have? So we're giving them even less advice, the information so than what we hold and then we're expecting to get an answer from them. Now, for anybody who's experienced any shortage of counseling or therapy or anything along those lines, the therapist would never go, right, OK, this is what's going on for you. I think you should do this because it's up to the person who is experienced enough to receive some kind of work it out for themselves because they're the most informed.


So from what you say in standard about going to the right person, you mentioned Scott, really crucial, which was the emotional support. And a good friend should be there to provide you with that emotional support. Nawaat If it takes six months, it takes six years for you to get through whatever it is you're going through, whether it's grief lasts, you know, a job loss, relationship breakdown, whatever. That's what a good friend should be.


Therefore, you know, they're not they're just there for the good times, are there for the bad. It's no different than when you when you get married and you read your vows in church for sickness and in health and whatever research you did to provide emotional support, because they can't give advice because the advice is wrong. You can say it doesn't go well. I'm going to say I did. What you told me, too, and it's even worse than ours that Frank Bonello, so it's a hard choice to make.


I think also for a friend, well-meaning friend, don't don't doesn't mean to give bad advice. But I think when you talk to your friend about an issue you're having, they're having to contextualize it. They're trying to draw a picture on the information they've given. And the only way they can frame that is to use their own experiences. And so when you talk about going through a bad divorce or a good divorce, it's it's how they're having to contextualize it or frame it using their own personal experience.


So it's it's you know, it's it's all well meaning, but it's not necessarily the right advice. I agree with Alan. You know, the therapist. Will you never get an answer from a therapist? They'll just keep asking questions. You're only only yourself can have can give the answer. You can get opinions from friends, but at the end of the day, you have to judge that advice, information that your friend is giving you. And what does your gut tell you?


I was speaking earlier about an issue I had with work recently, and I've ended up leaving this job and I spoke to Berry, three friends, friends that I really trust their opinion on, and they all gave me different directions to go with. But at the end of the day, it's what my gut was telling me. I think that's I think that's very true. I think I think we need we can't see our own blind spots. So we need either a process like this talking about where someone can guide us through to to work our force.


But sometimes we also need different perspectives. And I think we can if we can get lots of perspectives but not give too much value to any one of them and just use them all as ideas. Yeah, I think that's that's the way that we can find our path. There is kind of like I'm not sure he said earlier, but it's kind of like I think it was you, you said we don't always know what's best for the other person.


And it's not necessarily about us deciding what's best for them or helping them work out what is best for them and support and then what choices they make. And just off off the back of what was just she just said that the memorial was saying sometimes, you know, not this is from a good intention, but when we're in in. So calls of people dealing with things the way they have in passing on the advice in the way that they would would have dealt with it, unless we have knowledge or awareness of advice, is very it's almost impossible not to then fall into the same trap, but it is better to be in a group of people that have to stay in power in a relationship because then you're all working together and supporting each other in the right way rather than, you know, this isn't good enough and.


Whatever else. I think I think one of the fallacies of decision making, some people is that as well. Sometimes, you know, and this is kind of the flip side is that sometimes people don't want to make the decision. So they want they kind of almost want to shift the responsibility onto someone else. So by asking someone for advice and then following that advice, they almost remove their own responsibility. And then if it all goes pear shaped and and I think maybe tell you that sometimes in the past, you know, so sometimes we'll see therapy therapist, good.


But sometimes it's actually good just to even flip a coin, basically. And this is something that you see what your reaction is to deciding that you're going to do it that way.


So if you have that support in the decision making and you had someone asking you the right questions and you know how to look at this is a pros and cons of this one. This is the pros and cons of that one. It'd be easier to make that decision and to take responsibility.


And a good friend will also say, you know, you need to make the decisions for those folks, but, you know, at the end of the year. So they might say, well, they might actually slow you down sometimes. So they might say, well, you know, don't make this decision now, you know, maybe try and give it three days and have to think about it, you know, something like that. So sometimes it's about how they control your emotions.


It's nice. But you into the best place possible for you as well as the actual advice. But it's sort of shepherding.


Was nice supposed to be guiding you on your emotions at that point? Yeah. Yeah, I like it. I mean, I don't know if anyone's ever been thrown out of a nightclub, but that's a classic example, you know, like you're drunk about that. You had to straighten you out. You're really annoyed. You know, you just want to go there. And like your friends are like, I mean, you know, you think you're in the right and you just need to go out.


And that's that's the place where you could say, like a good friend decided to not fight and that but it's best not to get in the fight is I've been blindsided by one entire phone, this kind of perfect image you've got in your head of how everything is going to work out.


And it just doesn't always pan out our way to the light.


I think my mom bought me a fridge magnet which says life is all about how you handle plan B. I think it's very true that, you know, we always have these plans and schemes and occasionally they work out the time they get home. But you can you can move the what happens in quite a good result sometimes. And sometimes you can even find something better. I think a lot of it is just we've been talking a lot tonight about keeping a positive mental attitude and being the best version of yourself that you can be.


And that's the thing to do, isn't it? If you can kind of control those negative perceptions and I think you can you can do quite a lot, really. Expectation is that in the hope of episodic. I'm my own worst enemy, and I'm very guilty as well at the emotional conference, I think so I am you know, I can get quite angry sometimes and I have had to be one of the things because I think I think a lot of therapy as well.


One of the things I've I've kind of had to realize is that I need to stop taking my anger out on other people. It upsets woman. You know what I learned about anger recently that I found really interesting is that to know that when you feel angry is because you're fighting for something. So if you could be, you know, it could be something that you're fighting for. Not necessarily. It could be just some selfish one that you find for want to know that when you feel angry, it's always because you fight for something, even if it's like fighting for not being harmed or fighting for justice or, you know, it doesn't necessarily have to be a negative thing because anger can drive you to do something good.


Yeah, and I found that really interesting to know that you're always fighting for something when you feel angry because it helps you identify why you're angry in the first place is about getting a slightly difference and that most of the people that I've worked with who have been extremely angry have also been extremely afraid. So the USUN anger as a way to be sure.


So if you think about most of the people who get angry tend to be on talking to angry quite quickly, they might be fighting for safety at that point or fighting for feeling a sense of safety.


Yeah, which is essentially great, isn't it? That's what I think. I think basically the only emotion we have is fear. There's this love, happiness and degree of fear that we have to. I agree with Alan that I always look at fear as being the oxygen to anger.


And I think I think what it is, is like when someone's angry. I think anger can be positive as well in a certain context. So, for example, when someone's getting over a breakup. And they're in despair and despair. Like there's no hope, but anger is that bit where it gives you the energy. And then if you can use the anger and then recognize that fear is at the core of the anger and what am I afraid of?


And that. And so when you're talking about fighting for something, etc, I think what you what it is, is you're afraid and you're fighting. It's like someone is drowning you when you're fighting for you're fighting to get whatever it is you need so that you can get out of the fear. That's interesting stuff. Something to get for, hmm? It's a. Sorry, I'm just going to say, I mean, on on the back of the audition, just before we passed those.


It's my I've kind of made it my own personal philosophy to candidates in as many ways as I can to remove fear from my life. So like, for example, yesterday when I went on that walk, I wasn't in any way afraid. And we think of fear. A lot of people think of fear as shaken. I'm thinking that you're going to be attacked and all the feelings of anxiety, I don't mean it like that. I mean, even on the small even just on a very, very, very small scale of making a decision to actually go to the shops.


I know that. I don't think about that person feeling quite comfortable here. Comforts can be can be quite dangerous to us as she composes danger sometimes not always, but sometimes it can be dangerous. It's conflicts that will keep people in the house and not make them want to leave to leave the home sometimes produced that level. Anxiety and anxiety, fear, anxiety exists in everything that we do as human beings. There's a lot of fear of that, especially with all of this covid-19 business.


And I'm being polite by saying the word business. And it's, you know, there's a lot of fear out there. I'm working with a lot with the NHS and work with a lot of patients that have been very, very afraid, I'm afraid. And yet absolutely nothing has happened to them so that if people are easier to control in the skies.


Exactly. So if fear is controlled, then you've got to. Well, I certainly asked myself, how much am I being controlled by the levels of my own fear? What am I you know, what lessons am I in line myself by?


By being afraid? And I've done enough for the past couple of weeks, and I now genuinely feel I have got an emotional feel like a false of the protection around me. Like someone sent me a message the other day that you Kubla, which were absolutely floored me very well. And I looked at it. It was just like watching a you know, a fly goes past the window. It didn't mean anything from an emotional level. So it is definitely where I am in its early stages.


But that's kind of where I am from and trying to go forward in my life. I'm trying to move forward in whatever way I can. But fear and the unknown are. I suppose cousins, brothers, I don't know, siblings, whatever, and fair in a sense, if you recognize that it is.


That it is fair you. And it's based on not knowing if you are able to. I don't want to use the word investigate, but look at your affair and begin to understand what underpins it, then that takes away a level of the unknown, because in many respects we have fear based on not knowing. Yeah, yeah, yeah, there you go, the more you should be able to to to deal with that fear, to to manage that fear, even if you don't know anything, even if you we're not always going to know.


And I think it's important to say I know I get trapped in trying to know and some things we just not we can't know the future.


I'm not saying that you that you will know the future. But what I'm what I'm saying is part of my saying what what I'm saying is that just the mere fact of acknowledging. That there is fear that there is a level of not knowing, that is knowing something, that is recognizing something that is giving you some power. That's what that's what I'm talking about. Not necessarily finding the solutions are for pinpointing various things that are causing it. But being aware, like Alan is, he's saying he's aware and he's understanding that fear underpins a lot of things that in itself, I'm not a that much enough fear on the planes.


A lot of things I'm saying, I fear is a negative control. Just to be clear on that, I'm saying that fear is a negative control. And by removing fear, what I mean by that is not being afraid of anything.


Yeah, but the argument is that in order to remove the fare, you have to have an understanding of what the fare is. And that's how you remove the you can't just remove fare like that.


You have to have them be removed because you can't be placed, because if you look at it as a negative book, everything has got to have some substance. So you're right in saying that you can't just remove fear because then you'd be left with a vacuum and a vacuum into an empty space that we can't have empty spaces. So what I've done is have replaced the fear with faith. So faith is exactly the opposite of fear. So if we look at it, you rephrase the word fear and turn it into the way evil evil spelled backwards is is a live.


So do you mean, then, to say that fear is the opposite of love? I mean, I think there is a strong lyric that says fear can stop you loving and love can stop your fear. Yes. Yes.


So. So, in other words, faith is love. So you're saying that you don't understand the reasons for your affair, you just replace it with faith, that's what you're saying.


Yeah, because that that actually go so by understanding the problem that we make as human beings. My opinion is, you know, this is kind of part of my job is that people always come out to say why. There is no answer to the question why. So there's no point to understanding why did this person do that one day? Well, there's no answer because it's only going to lead to another question, which is going to be why? Again, there's no point trying to reason that reason why things are.


You've just got to accept also that this is just me, this is just the way I look at things, and you've just got to accept that things can can be different and you have the power to change the future, to change your life by adopting a different path, rather be on the path of fear. You adopt a path of faith or in other words, a path of love. So therefore, whatever decision I make, I make that decision.


I there's no right or wrong decision ever make it in faith. If I may make a decision in fear, because negative doesn't that doesn't produce a positive, only positive predisposition. You make a decision on faith, then that is going to be the right decision.


You can have blind faith as well. I mean, I'm not sure I entirely agree with you that fear is entirely negative. It can stop you from doing things that are going to harm other people. For example, I mean, give the example of psychopaths. They have a market lack of fear for things and look how great psychopaths are.


But when there's a death, there's a clear difference between fear and danger. Danger. It's completely different to fear. You know, if you've got an electric fence and it's saying do not torture. Two thousand two thousand volts.


Yeah, you might not be afraid, but it's still a dangerous thing to do, and it's going if you're going to have consequences, if you do, it could be you could be talking about it in the context of being anxious or afraid to go into a new social activity on a walk, which is there's nothing wrong with that. Sorry, do you mind if I just had a few thoughts to. Do you want to finish. Sorry. So because just from listening to what you say, and I think what I can hear is that I am on as well as what Sangar said is like when we're feeling fearful, we can identify that fear through the feelings in our body calmly.


If we connect with our body, you can feel it as an anxiety inside the body doesn't feel at peace and rested. There's tension somewhere or an electric feeling somewhere. And we not take a lot of energy to try and work out what's the root of that fear all the time. So what we can do instead is, is just to to know it's not fair and then just to calm myself down because there isn't a threat here right now. Yeah, exactly, so if you think about it is like a like a plant.


So if you're putting energy or was it onto plants, it's going to grow out of the more you concentrate on that negative aspect that the more that negative plant is going to grow. If you put. Energy onto a positive thing of faith or love, whichever way you want to gauge onto the positive thing, then that's going to grow instead of the negative aspect in your life. So imagine if you could just click your fingers on all the things. Your life's going to be amazing, truly amazing to be a lot less Borias in LA for sure.


I mean, I think there's a difference between rational, fair and irrational fear, which is kind of like the danger thing. Isn't that what you're saying? Is that I create irrational or I recognize, like, irrational fears myself. And they and they fear barriers to stop me doing things. So I'm going to remove those barriers created by irrational fear, which is which is a good thing to do. I mean, I, I have got I have got in trouble myself at work where I went for a restructure, we went to an organizational restructure and my job got changed.


And if I wasn't happy about it and I actually decided I wasn't going to be afraid of work anymore and organizational restructure, its attitude changed over time. It made me a threat. And they did a job on me, basically, where they screwed me over. Eventually I. Yeah, it's always good to be like that as well, but sometimes it's where they start, it's where the irrational stopped me in the rationals, I think. And obviously sometimes when people are involved, you yourself know how subjective everything is, isn't it?


I. Certainly for things like emotional experiences, like getting out of the house and stuff like that, I just go walking out of a very tall building.


So I may not like, you know, having no fear, basically walking in the Lions gate, just kind of like a straight line or something like, I take it.


Sorry. I think they I think being human fear is a is an ever present, fear is like everything that we want. Like, we live within the comfort zone and in everything we want is outside of that. So fear is ever present because even if we always stayed, we were in the comfort zone, there would we would have more anxiety, our threshold for anxiety.


We would become like if someone doesn't leave the house for six months, less and less things create the same anxiety. And so I see a distinction. I agree with Alan in that I feel that all there is the force of life is love. And the extent to which we feel fear is the extent of the emotion is that emotion is a kaleidoscope of how much fear we have and the more we can live. And it's about being able to be comfortable to live with fear.


And so it's true that psychopaths don't have fear, but the distinguishing feature of psychopaths is they don't have love, is that they it's it's because they don't have any any sense of meaning to life other than grandiosity. And so. We have to. We can't we can't we've evolved with fear because fear is a protective device in a sense that you're talking about danger. But I think what I was talking about is if we relax our expectations, you know, like Buddha said, you know, the four noble truths is that all life is suffering.


Suffering comes from our attachment. So if we let go and I think that this is really what I was talking about is if we let go of our attachment to any particular outcome, which is what drives our fear, then we're able to live in a place of faithful love.


Yet the have our own fears, I suppose. Yeah, it's fear, it's fear that controls us. Yeah, exactly. So everything that you're doing in life is to reduce that level of fear, because fear is to my mind, it is the state that you want to retreat from. As you say, it's always there. It's the other side on the other side of the coin for life. And everything that you're doing is trying to safeguard yourself from being within that sphere of fear.


Well, I think the greatest skill, the most important skill in life is the ability to manage fear. It's not that we don't have enough fear, but exactly. We can live with it. Exactly.


Say when you fall asleep, I don't understand how how is it that you what I what I can't understand from Alan's point is the use of the word faith to describe.


Being removing fair. OK. I kind of understand what you mean, and I don't quite get it, because I can't I don't see how you can just. See that fair, I no longer have fair because I have faith, I've seen some of that comes down to how we define words exactly.


Fail to understand what Alan actually means.


I see. If I can reframe what you said, OK, it's all right. I know you're asking Alan Ball or just. Ah, I said I might be able to explain it in a different way. Go ahead. So if if you've got a decision to make and it's well known that outcomes. No. No matter what you feel fear because you don't know whether you're making the right decision or not. And more I think we're all insane. And correct me if I'm wrong, because if you replace fair with face, you feel a fear or, you know, issue fear and then you calm down and decide to go.


Had something with faith. Which is what what is fascist, which is the feeling of peace, of whatever is going to happen. Whatever the outcome is, I have faith that it's going to be good for me, even if it challenges me. No. Yeah, but you've got to end well, so if you just think of it like so Pete, you gave an example of of losing your job. So let's imagine you didn't work and all of a sudden, boss comes up to you and says, right, we got all of these quotes because of the code with a shot.


You've lost your job. Pack up your things and go. No one's going to no one's going to be happy about that because it's so unexpected.


I not mean without expectation. So when things don't meet with our expectations, that's when we get sad, because an expectation is an image of what we believe is going to happen in the future. That's all our expectation is.


Therefore, I believe it's a faith, is a belief in self.


That's what you mean by faith or beliefs. Every single belief that we have exists. Only in fantasy. Only in fantasy, because it was what I believe. Let's just keep it simple, conservative animation. That's my belief. Your belief is Labor's amazing. Now who's right and who's wrong. We can argue till the cows come home. So belief is subjective, but whatever we believe is fact to ourselves. So we adopt a faith based approach. Then everything that we encounter, we will be afraid of.


So in this case, given the example of of an unexpected thing happening, which is we are losing a job, the fear based person will be filled with turmoil, emotional turmoil, and the reaction to it will be, OK, everything's a mess.


I'm going to lose my house. You know, I'm not going to have any money. That election is going to break down, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And then they're going to go like a domino effect and everything's going to be doom and gloom. And the chances of them getting another job is going to be reduced because emotionally they're going to be weakened. They're going to not going to be particularly strong, which is if you had a different person who had the same set of circumstances happen to them and they adopted what's called a faith based approach or a love or a positive mindset, then they go, right, OK, you know what I have lost?


I have lost my job today. It is awful. But you know what? I've still got the same skill sets. I'm still the same person. I've still got all my experience. I've dealt with things greater than this in the past. So I used to I don't know the future. So who's to say that this isn't going to be an opportunity for me to get something even better and by having that positive mindset, the more likely. To determine a positive outlook, a positive outcome.


So therefore, it's a belief in the power of self, then it's a belief in the power of love rather than the belief in the power of fear, love.


So there's a phrase which says the only truth in life is unlimited love. Everything else is an illusion. It's kind of to me, it's kind of I mean, like it's like everything's going to be all right now, but it's almost like making your own luck. So if you think that because because in life is what happens when when when we fail. So if you fail at something and you put up barriers because you fear that it stops you from doing anything, whereas if you actually go through with a positive effect, because because so much of our perception about ourselves and our own life affects how we fail.


Isn't that so? So I think what I am saying is if you feel happier and less going to be better anyway, basically, and you probably people will experience that. But there's an unconscious level. Human beings affect each other emotionally even if they don't know their subconscious signals. That's not luck.


It's not about it's not about love. Well, maybe I'm misunderstanding, because to me, if you have a belief in self that you can overcome adversity and you, no matter what adversity comes your way, you feel empowered in yourself. In other words, belief in your in your power. As Allen described, the skills that you have, what you have learned, what you are able to do, and you bring that that to me is belief in the power of yourself to serve to.


To, to, to.


To to handle what comes your way. So there is no fear, you have removed fear because you believe in your powers to to deal with whatever the adversity is. That's how I'm reading it. So I don't. The use of the word faith and love just kind of throws me out, aren't I would I could understand what I'm what I'm trying to get out. I'm trying to get to I understand what he's saying, but my interpretation doesn't use the words love and faith.


I, I can't see.


Maybe it's too esoteric for me, you know, in my thinking, and maybe I need to get a little bit more in terms of connecting love with I understand love unfair, OK? And I know affairs, whatever it is. But to me, the power to transcend fear comes from within the strength of your convictions that you can overcome because you have these things. It's why is it love? Why is it faith? Love, love, love is one of those words, isn't it, that we all think we probably think we know what love is and we probably don't know what love is.


But if you ask 200 people for an explanation of what love was, you probably get 300 different answers. Think it's quite difficult to find? Yeah, like love.


We think of love as this kind of like therapy like connection. I don't I don't think I don't think Colin or it's not men in the love in that it's not that it's not that.


It's just the specificity of what it is that it is trying to counteract. In other words, living with ER requires you to draw on certain strengths. That's what I'm beginning. That's what I'm reading from what is saying. It's just that I can't relate to faith.


I'd say trust in the divine. I did, and I are thinking that Alan meant trust in yourself, and I think of trusting myself in my beliefs and myself and my strengths and I think right from you, I am not religious.


OK, sorry.


Interrupted Indigenous perspective is just an example. As I said, I've just lost my job and this is the third time in my life I've been made redundant. The first time it happened, everybody in the business got made redundant. So I didn't really feel that sense of rejection. A second time it happened, I was one person in the team that got made redundant and it felt like rejection. And I was very, very fearful. I didn't know where I was because the way I wrote up my image of success was a professional job, earning good money for yourself and all that and all of that was taken away.


But what I learned from that was the third time around I've been made redundant. I have no fear of redundancy now because from my experience, I know that things happen for a reason. So that second time I was made redundant, I went travelling, you know, and I've learnt through that self journey physically and emotionally looking at myself is that everything happens for a reason. So now I ask myself is what lesson am I supposed to learn from this?


And out of that, I believe that the universe, through divine intervention, I don't know. I believe that everything happens for a reason and it will turn out well. For me, that is self belief, not in my not only in myself, because I know I will be capable of overcoming this. I'm not I'm not saying it's going to be easy, I'll have lessons to learn, but at the same time, I have faith that there is a reason for this to happen and it will turn out well.


Do you including a good reason and a bad reason? I think there's no there is yes. In a way it's the same side of, you know, is the same side, because obviously I have a lesson to learn. I have to I have to work out what that lesson is.


Yeah. Um, can I just say something that I was going to say earlier, which was I think the love to me is is acceptance. Um, I was just wondering what I thought about. This idea that perhaps humans are more motivated by fear than they are of love, and do you think that that is that's just a that's actually just a choice that we make and we have more choice as to which motivates us than than we think? Well, then I'll buy biology might dictate.


The really good question on especially with the U.S. about choice removes choice because with love or faith or confidence, if that's easier for people to understand and if I've got confidence or somebody's got confidence in what they do or in anything that they do, then.


I can do whatever I want. Could have a confidential, but if I fear certain aspects, then that's going to reduce my my choice and it's going to control me to go down a path I might not want to go down, but I can't go down a path. I want to go down because I'm afraid to go down there, because I perceive there to be danger on those paths. So if you look at the likes of the Nazis when Hitler was in charge.


They use propaganda to control the population and to make the population afraid, and that's why the Second World War starts because of fear. They feared the Russians, they feared the French. They studied the polls and that's why they were invaded, which wasn't about money. You know, it wasn't necessarily about power. They attacked them because of fear. And when you get that population to believe. In something that is making them afraid, it makes them more susceptible to control because the choice is removed.


Now, in terms of fear, fear, there's just negativity and negativity is evil. There is nothing positive within evil. Therefore, if you are allowing fear into your life, whether it's something that you do consciously or unconsciously, you are allowing evil into your life. And any aspect of evil is not good for us. Otherwise, it wouldn't be evil. It would be good. So what I'm doing is going down a positive path and looking at life.


I don't know what life will bring. I'm just a human being. I don't have any power. I'm special in any way. But your perception, you know, we've come here to be landed up and we've come here to understand different things this evening. And we've done that through knowledge. And that knowledge will hopefully bring about a change in our perception of things, you know, as any of us going to look at in the mirror after tonight and go, oh, wow, I look ten times more beautiful or more handsome than I did before they started.


Now, what our perception of shelf can make us believe that if we believe it, then other people will believe it to be the opposite of that. If we throw ourselves as being discussed and then all the people are going to start thinking the same way as we do, I really don't think it's as simple as that.


It's a really nice idea, but I think that people don't necessarily necessarily see you in all senses of the word. Do you think of life as vibration? Everything has a vibration, doesn't it? So when you put water in the pump, it bubbles away because the vibration increases. When someone's depressed, that means the level of their vibration decreases. So we walk into a room like I've walked into rooms full of depressed people. You can feel what's called the atmosphere.


And the atmosphere is a low negative atmosphere. I'm sure we've all walked into places like a certain global bar or whatever it might be or neighborhood. And you've gone. All this feels a bit dodgy. I'll probably be leaving as quickly as possible. And that's down to the atmosphere. It's down to the sounds of the vibration. So, yes, you're right in saying that you can't see or I can't look at, you know, all aspects of what you're about.


And in the same way, you can't do that to me. But if we were to meet in person, I would be able to pick up on certain aspects of your of your character, of your personality due to the vibration that you'd be given off. Make no mistake. I I've got a like I, I think there's there's so I'm listening and I'm and I'm hearing talking on slightly different levels. I think all of life is about connection, the whole journey of life, how meaning of life is, is connection.


And I think what I was talking about is controlling the narrative. So the connection, the first level of connection is to a sense of what is the whole. This is like spirituality, what we believe like in if you want to talk about spirituality or you will talk about science is about what is like the big question of life. And when you talk of faith, faith is really we say in the religious sense and the the origin of life faith is that there is God and is the devil that's good and it's evil.


And God is all powerful. All knowing, all loving. And if that's true, and if you have faith that that's true, then life like our future then is guaranteed. It's a sense of a benevolent universe, whereas if you're if you feel that it's down to you, if you feel that it's reliant, like fear is basically it's down to me and I might not be enough. That's the core of of all fears. And whereas if you believe like if you have faith in this sense, that and it might not be a religious God, but in the sense that it's a positive universe.


And so when I was talking about vibration, I think the way that I interpret that is that all of life is out there and we can take the same situation. So the way that we make sense of the world is I think we have something like three billion pieces of data every second that we're processing. And most of that we just delete, we distort, we generalize. We don't pay any attention to that. We pay attention based on our beliefs.


So it's that we pay attention to what happens. So if you're in a court of law and you have five witnesses, they will give five different interpretations because they'll have paid attention to different things. And so our experience is created from what we pay attention to.


So. We can be in a situation like Sheila talked about, you know, you lose your job, some people will take that and that will spur them on and be the catalyst for them building their own business, going on and developing a new career that's better than the one they had someone else. That will be the point that their life crumbled and that will be the thing that they'll come back to. And the basic difference in those beliefs is your belief, not believing in yourself.


It is the universe positive and benevolent or is it dangerous and scary place? And so you asked immagine. About fear. And I don't think the fear necessarily motivates us, but it activates us because fear is this primal thing that it's biologically built in us from a time when feeling fear, men that are very survival. But now people have anxiety in situations that really the consequences are trivial is psychological fear as opposed. So I think it's more about faith is about trusting in the world and believing that the world is necessarily a good place.


And fear is believing that the world is a dangerous and treacherous place. Right, very well tied together, and I add something to that as well, I don't know if it's really relevant, but, you know, like if you've been steeped in childhood trauma or complex post-traumatic stress disorder or something like that, especially while our brains are developing, the amygdala enlarges, doesn't it? And that's the part of the brain that develops threat. So we might perceive things as threatening because our brain says this reminds me of something else that I once found threatening.


But rationally in this situation, it's actually not going to manifest and it's not a threat in the same way that we thought that our brain is telling us that something dangerous is going to happen to you because it wants to protect you. And especially if it's in large, you're going to be a lot more sensitive to throw out all the time. That might not be rational.


Yeah, and and that's such a why some people have so much challenge, like if you grow up and your first experience is that the world is a dangerous and safe place, is really difficult, and you have to overcome that before you can see that the world is. Life isn't fair, like the biggest illusion in life is that people think it's fair, it's not. But I think you have to have a sense of meaning that if life is so hard, then that's your meaning, like the struggle to to make it.


And it's not about we all start in the same place. And who has the most. It's about we're all on a unique journey. And it's you can't compare your journey to anyone else's because we all started in different places.


And presumably, Alan, this is quite a direct thing to say. But presumably, Alan, you practice what you preach. So to that end, it sounds like quite a positive way of living. So are you therefore, generally the general sense happy? It's a really good question. I've lived many, many years being ridiculously unhappy, especially as a result of my relationship breakdown down five years ago, something I am and. And it's been a long, long, long journey for myself to get to this point, and I didn't just wait was then just wake up one day, go, I tell you, I'll do this.


I've been doing these talks. I've done hours and hours of study, and I've kind of made it, to put it bluntly. I've made it my business to to change things. I can bring that relationship back. I wouldn't want to, but what I can do is develop myself. And that is something that is within my power to develop myself. And that is what I've been doing. I'm not I'm far from sitting here as a human being.


That's not that's not what I'm saying.


But what I do strive to be is the best that I can to improve every single day. And I don't I can't say for the life of me if I've been miserable for a long period of time, how holding on to any source of fear in any relation whatsoever is going to help me move forward in my life. You spoke about and I don't know the lady's name being mentioned about losing a job. I I've lost a couple of jobs.


And as usual, I suppose it's it's put me into a position where I'm now in a much better job than I've ever been before in my life as a result of losing those jobs. Why did they put me in a better job? No. One, I wouldn't apply for this job had it been in any other job. And also, I believe that I went into that interview with an unquestionable belief that I could do the job. On the Eden told me that when I got the job, you know, the way you presented yourself.


It wasn't so much my knowledge, it my presentation, my confidence, all that which is produced through faith, I wasn't safe in that industry thinking why we don't get this job. It's going to be the end of things. And I don't have any money, blah, blah, blah. I didn't even cross my mind, didn't even cross my mind.


So it works. It works about things coming to my life very recently that would never, ever in a million years would happen. It would almost be an impossibility. But it's an impossibility because you believe it to be impossible. There's nothing that is impossible for someone who lives without fear.


Do you think he'll be a better person in a relationship now?


Yeah, because I've got a better relationship with myself. You can never, ever have a good relationship with somebody else. If you are aware you don't have hangups. If you don't have that relationship with yourself, it's impossible because you're looking for somebody else to fill in all the empty spaces. And then when they don't, because nobody's perfect, you don't you don't meet someone and then you fit together in a perfect shape and you take the two pieces together to make it perfect square.


It's never going to happen. So I think. The way I look at it is I mean, I'm single now, but I look at someone to compliment my life, not someone to fulfill me, because if that person goes out of my life like the last time was, then I'll be back in the same position. I'm not I'm never gonna happen again. So my philosophy is to look at things and go right. And what has happened to the relationship is what the lady said earlier on and on.


And I'm going I talk to me from a faith based position to make the most of what appears. Again, I spoke earlier about what we see with our eyes isn't necessarily the whole picture. I'm going to make something positive out of this. And I don't know if you've read the book The Secret. It's along their principles, but the secret has drawn its information from Mocho, the text. Do you do you agree with that? Yeah. And I do to a degree, I have not read it properly, but I heard his principles and I think there is some aspects of truth in it, I don't think is quite 100 percent right in all of this.


No, I don't, you know, sometimes dangerous. Is this the guy who decides to say yes to everything?


Is that is the law of attraction, isn't it? Yeah. Yeah.


I think there is some unknown that I think I mean. I haven't seen the way it was promoted in a trailer and that why if you had the whole key to the universe and the secrets to the universe, why would you fixate on the one thing they fixate on is how much money can you make? Yeah, I think the principles are in the sense of I think you have to be more than just think about it. I think the danger comes where it's like you just think this into existence.


It's not. But the thinking it can give you the confidence to do it. And I think if you understand, you line up so that there's no conflict. You know what you want. And I think you have to let go. You have to let go of what you want in order to let it unfold. Like I think Alan talked about earlier. Like, you know, it's trust in what happens. So I think to that extent. But I think the book is is I never read it, I saw and it's just kind of the trailer of it.


So it's why way it's very American and.


I mean, the way I look for them is to look at today, tomorrow. Yesterday, yesterday's gone. So there's nothing we can do about that. OK, forget about it. Tomorrow is yet to take place. No one can predict the future. So it's concentrating on today and what we do today, Xiaojian, tomorrow. So I'm going to do positive things today. So therefore, my positive things will echo in tomorrow. I hear what you say and, you know, it's just reminded me of what you were saying earlier about you kind of feel like you've got this people around you sort of protecting you from things when you grow up.


Kind of feel the same in some sense is what I'm trying to just go. You know, there is a lot of different energies around me. There's a lot of negative energies around me. And I'm just to be aware of that so we can try and sort of be a bit more emotionally stable. And I'm not like bother me as much and I don't know about you, but for me it can only last so long. I guess maybe it's just like a muscle.


It needs training more and more and more. But it kind of for me it breaks down quite quickly. But I think it's a good thing to have thought there, if that makes sense.


One of the things I started doing after my release, I think I've said this before, but when my relationship first and I will be happy and trying to get my happiness, someone actually suggested, like, say, the mantra. So so writing a positive mantra and saying it in the mirror in the morning and then in the mirror before you go to bed saying it to yourself and look at yourself in the eyes and believe it. And they believe that there's a lot to be said for actually telling yourself good things and things that you should be positive and stuff there is because you conditioned yourself into sort of creating that bubble.


And that means that all you're doing is creating you're saying I'm going to win the lottery or something, which clearly if you decide say, you know, I'm a I'm a good person, you know, I value my integrity. You know, I'm good at this. I'm good at that. You know, I'm a loving human being. And, you know, it really just subconsciously, it just it does make you feel like it's this reflection of yourself.


Isn't that I am. And then removing the barriers of the fears of to stop you, which stop you from doing things as a kind of logical next step.


But actually, all of those fears and barriers have actually been put in by years of conditioning. Exactly. Yes.


And so really what you're doing is just fighting back against itself, because we've grown up in a society that wants us to become a commodity and it tells us you have to fit and you have to be like this. You have to, you know, from school onwards. And so, yes, it's just reasserting stay in your place.


And when you go to university, make sure you drink as much alcohol as you can so you don't really get very far below it.


And that I think most of my barriers I create myself. I mean, this is it's ironic because obviously, since my dad split up and I've been know, I've been doing quite a big journey through myself as well, basically, and some other things I think I've come up with as well. So maybe I'm a bit behind you. And I think maybe, you know, I've realised that I'm the one who puts my. What he tells myself these negative things and affect the way I behave and it's me doing it and I'm like, why am I doing I'm actually able now to actually say that I'm by a witch, which is an important step.


And I want you. She recognizes that. But my.


You can stop dead. I read a really good quote yesterday and it said, most people, all the people, they thought about other people's opinions.


So true or not, isn't it? Didn't they say opinions, opinions are like assholes, everybody's got one.


I want to say something about Sasha's point, about feeling tension at the very moment Adam mentioned it as well. What about instances where you go into a room and you feel like there is tension there, but then when you actually have conversation with the people, it's all right. And actually, it could have just been your your perception that there is and it's not and it's not an actual reality.


So it could be it could be that you're anxious before you go. I'm anxious before I go somewhere. And it's just my anxiety because I'm worried about a threat or fearing something.


Yeah. If you are quite at ease, though, and you walk into something and you really can sense something like a bit, you know, even here it was getting a bit, you know, you could sense the kind of martinets pulling away or repel in real felt like we were sort of going in the wrong direction a little bit or instead of being united, we were all. You know, we could we could all sense that, you know, it's come down to a nice place where we can connect again, but I think it's knowing the difference between when it's anxiety.


And so because you're worried about something, when it's actually you feel all right and you can just send some things off about the atmosphere, about the environment. But if you are feeling OK and you also and you can sense something about the environment, you might have then decided to switch off to that. If you feel it, that's OK all of a sudden. Yes. Are you saying that if there is harmony in a place, then it's good vibrations, good a good atmosphere?


You feel OK? Yeah, but that to my mind, says that if. For that to happen, then there has to be agreement. Are there there needs to be agreement of the whole so if there is if there is no agreement.


Then the atmosphere changes and it's negative sometimes we just don't know what the problem is, but we can just sense but what I'm reading from what you're saying is that the atmosphere in our discussion was changing. And because there was disagreement and I'm reading that to see because I was questioning and I'm not taking it in any way that I was questioning Alan's use of the terms and we were getting a bit excited that that would be negative for you rather than for me.


It's just a good debate and it's it's unravelling and opening up the discussion and getting deeper into it. But I think you found it uncomfortable. Is that what I'm reading? And that I was was a bit flippant as well, Alan, and I didn't I didn't I wasn't that estimating what it sounded like. I was talking about you taking up extreme sports or something. I was jumping out of a parachute jump in or something. I guess that's kind of the next step up from where you are likely to back up trying to get to.


I was trying to get a deeper understanding of what I meant by the terms, and I understood it was more I just want more a sense of the whole room, though.


As you see, I ask the questions because I like to know what makes people uncomfortable versus where their comfort zone. And then they become uncomfortable because. If you if you don't know, you can inadvertently make people not want to be in your in the surroundings because you are touching on points, that is what we're all going to have different opinions.


And I could see that you were trying to understand that there was a difference in language and you were trying to understand it in your own head, what it was mean. And it just the whole it just it was just the whole vibe in the room just didn't seem right for a while.


So then I'll agree with you, Sasha.


I wouldn't take it personal, son, but I was going to be offensive at all. I was just telling you what I was going to say.


Sometimes we can make a mistake of trying to reason things through. Generally speaking about you, we can make the mistake. It's school, the reasoning behind and the reasoning mind. We'll try and make sense of things that we don't necessarily need to make sense of, can lead us into all sorts of different problems, such as the one who made the statements about the question of why now. I think what Sasha, please correct me if I'm wrong. Sasha is trying to say was that the the atmosphere had changed or the vibration had changed from one of unity, one of support to something which is a bit disjointed.


I personally wasn't offended by anybody whatsoever, and I don't think she was either offended by what she's saying now, because I feel as though I'm she's thinking that I'm the one who's changing the atmosphere by questioning it. And I don't like that. But it's fine. It's fine. It's fine. It's fine. Don't worry. All I'm saying is this, that I don't necessarily think that what I was saying would offend you. And I was just trying to get to a point of understanding because I genuinely didn't understand what you meant by faith, because I thought you were talking about religion, that you made a shift from one thing to religion.


And if you are offended by that question, I apologize.


But I'm sorry that I wasn't offended by anything.


So, OK, I made my main point was I don't know how you follow that points on, but my main point was the general feeling in the room changed. And all I was trying to point out to imagine is that, you know, sometimes we feel the connection and sometimes we feel like it's too much and it's coming together. And other times we can sense the ripple. And what I'm trying to explain to imagine is news in the room as an example on the vibe in the room at times and not any particular person or any particular time.


It was just an example of.


How that's a good way to gauge sometimes when we can't rationalize it, sometimes just a good way to gauge and to start being more intuitive and trusting our own feelings. OK, fine, point taken, but here's where I am different to you, if we are all speaking the same things and agreeing on every point, then I don't think we'll evolve for us to be here to hear other viewpoints and to sometimes tease them out. It may seem a bit not as convivial as it is when we are all in agreement and it's fluid, but we will come back to it because it's in an atmosphere of respect, because I respect what Alan is saying.


I am just trying to get to the root of it so that I can understand and appreciate where he's coming from, exactly what he said.


I understood that it wasn't personal at all. I was saying more difficult than the you know, from you, just the room in general. OK, fine.


But the point I'm making is this for us to evolve. We have to have debate sometimes over points, otherwise we would just be a chorus cheering each other on.


No, I'm not saying people shouldn't shouldn't voice their need to understand what somebody else is or that we're not going to have differences. It was just it was more to do with life, the difference between what it feels like to be unified and what it feels like to be disunified.


But we are unified. I think we are unified. I have not lost, not lost a sense of unity with the group. That's the point. So when you say that it's it is it sounds it's a serious point. In other words, something happened to change the dynamic of the group. And I didn't quite feel that because like Pete was saying one thing, you know, Alan was explaining his point. And I was just trying to understand the two words to get a deeper understanding of what he was saying.


And by me using my own terminology, I think I understand what he was saying or I didn't, because I I don't subscribe to the notion of or I'm sorry, I'm not going to offend anybody. I don't mean to offend anybody, but because I come from a country where people every Sunday they go to church and it's I take it to the Lord and he will sort it out. And and I respect anybody who has that kind of faith. But I wanted to understand if that's what he meant, that kind of.


You you just fair and you hand it to that faith, but I have I think I understand more what he's saying and. To pick that out. Maybe yes, I asked maybe a question or two, which was uncomfortable, but in so doing, I think I guess I got a response from him and the others collectively together. I think we were able to ta ta ta ta ta ta open it up and get different perspectives on the matter, because Sheila, for example, gave the examples of of losing her job and her sense of belief into herself and also being flexible and having the self belief to go off and travel, which.


Which helped. As far as I'm concerned, it helped me in seeing what she was saying when I compared it with what he's saying, and in no way I don't think that that would have changed the. The atmosphere. Yes, you get more excited and we are talking, but I think that the same level of respect for every member of the group still remains the same. And therefore, I am sorry, I just don't. That it's that the atmosphere changed.


Well, maybe it was just a bad example to use this this right here right now, but it was like the most appropriate one. Well, it felt the most appropriate one because it's relevant to now, if that makes sense or it may be just that it wasn't the best example to try and explain why it is that we got excited and that we got something.


It would have summed it up a bit more positive for me. It sounded negative and it sounded like I was being the reason for it. Well, that's not how a man called a very frank person, I'm saying it as it is and genuinely it's not how I am and it's come across.


So I think all all relationships and all groups, it's kind of like when you look at sound waves, is going up and down, is going up and down. And I think the value that we have for each other is in our diversity. And but like I said before, you know, in terms of vibrations and everything is there and it's what we pay attention to. And I think in relationship to the group and whatever, we have to be aware that some people look for logic.


Some people look for the emotions. And there's groups of people that like to harmonize. And we all have different roles and there's people who like to find deeper truths. And so it's about it's about everyone having different things and everyone's going to focus on different things. And I'm not very good at really so much picking up on people's emotions and whatever. I'm kind of like the logic and looking for the truth. But I think we have to be comfortable with being uncomfortable.


And it's it's the process.


And I think it's I think it's a similar thing from two different views of a song just saying about we still have respect, even though we challenge. And I think we need to be able to challenge. And then as such as saying what I read into what is actually saying is there's times of engagement, disengagement. There's times where we attract people and it doesn't mean we don't like or we don't respect each other. But it means that there's there's there's variations in vibrations.


And that's what I am saying. But also that that's a way we can gauge, because what can happen sometimes is that once is the disconnect to continue can continue and disconnect. And all I'm saying is that the disconnect is a is a natural force acculturation. Well, that's the point for for emergency. That's the point where we can when we can identify that is like, OK, you know, connection needs to happen again.


Yeah. But I don't think we disengaged. I think that by virtue of staying here and continuing the conversation, it means that we want to we want to still remain connected and we still see that there's some value in that. There's some things that we are getting that we value. So, yes, the. That the the the the tempo of the discussion may change the. And it may get a little bit more heated, more exciting or whatever you wanted, whatever adjective you want to use for it, but nonetheless, I think it keeps us engaged.


I think it pushes us to dig deeper. And to look for more understanding, and I I'm I'm fine with that, what you see is what you get from me, I you know, I can't change anymore. It's too late. And if I question, I don't mean it personally, it's for my benefit, and if anybody else gets something out of my questions, then I'm glad for them, OK?


But I think A needs all aspects. And and for the record, I didn't I didn't pick up that was was saying anything specific to you? I think she was generally talking more about the mood and recognizing that when you have not disengaged, but when there's a lack of harmony to it, that you try to bring harmony back, which which I think is a different role.


And I'm not angry, rather not angry. I'm just I'm just pointing out to Sasha that once she says that, that OK, let me rephrase it by saying it, then I am the one who is questioning. So I am naturally going to interpret to mean that my pushing Ireland is is part of the reason for the change in the atmosphere. I'm not taking offence by. So I don't think that I am offended by what you are saying or anything.


OK, but that's, but that's, but that's the bottom line. That's it. OK, and if the atmosphere to change because of my questioning, I hope it wasn't uncomfortable or too uncomfortable, but I don't think it is because are all here still.


And Allen says that he's saying some things about me because I'm using coded all the names under the sun, you know.


Oh, well, but listen, you would have to do that because guess what?


Because I've done this on the streets, Jim. I just can't.


Oh, you're talking to me that you don't know enough words to go to Iraq. I know, but but OK.


But what if I can just say it's all right when when we're all engaged in a conversation, we can make an error that it's our fault or it's their fault or it's it's somebody the reality is it. All of us here are having a conversation and all of us are contributing to that conversation. So we are all equally responsible for whether that conversation is constructive or destructive. So I think, you know, I think we should really move on from that particular point.


I'm fine.


No, I just I hope she's fine and she's not upset by me saying, you know, because I don't I don't mean to upset so upset her. So, Sasha, please do not be upset.


I don't think any offence honestly could. And maybe that was just a division between emotion and logic, so I think summed up pretty well.


Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I think I think some people see the world through emotion. Some see it through logic.


I'm a scientist. I can't help it.


And it's just respecting differences. Like we don't have to be the same. We have to have the same views. But I understand no one said dig, and he got the answers. I'm fine. I respect exactly where he's coming from. I understand what his his way, how he's reached, where he's he is now.


Come on, Alan, take a bow. I don't know what you want to say. We need I think we need I think we need to ask you to wrap up some words of wisdom to send us on our way.


I think that's an asshole. Yeah. Those I can say is just that life. You do have an element of control. You do have an element of power and you do have strength within your own life. Everything is down to you believe, everything is down to your perception, believe can be changed, perception can be changed, your circumstances will change because of your perception against those circumstances. Maybe it'd be handy to have someone maybe you should try what I'm suggesting, because that is the only way any of this is going to know and I don't know anybody else who's on this journey like I am currently, and I haven't been on it for a particularly long time.


And but it is working. You don't have anything to lose. There will probably be some cables like some cables have come my way. Make no mistake. But I think cables come your way because it's designed to stop you on the journey, because fear is what this world is designed to do. And I would say that's. I beg your pardon. So, yeah, if anyone wants to join me, I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on it.


And if anyone wants it, send me a message. Keep in touch while you're doing this over the next two weeks, then please do so. I'll be your friend.


And work from what? How can people send you a message from Mr.. Yeah, I'll happily send my mobile number to whoever wants it, just no calls after 11, that's fine.


So you, me, a message. I think you can match his me, as far as I know, enough to send me a message if you if you ingested one to no more what and I suppose whatever. And yeah, Foljambe, I'm open and I'm happy to keep in touch with anybody. Thank you, thanks. Thank you, guys, and thanks, everyone, for the honest, open and frank exchange. Thank you. Thanks, Rob.


And hopefully next week we have we we have kept you long beyond your bedtime.


It's 8:00.


Take care, guys. Yes, and I.