In this week’s episode, Jay Berkowitz and Kerri Coby White, Author of The Law Firm Growth Machine, discuss law firm growth strategies and some of the top challenges and solutions for Law Firms today. They cover the importance of learning from other industries, legal marketing strategies, and how to take advantage of Google’s products - Google Maps, Local Service Ads, and Google Business Profile (GBP). Plus, you’ll get tips about tools for centralizing data and improving productivity, in addition to Kerri’s favorite apps, business books, and subscriptions. Be sure not to miss this episode; tune in now!

Timestamps:

• 00:00 - Introduction to Ten Golden Rules podcast
• 01:32 - Kerri 4.0
• 03:47 - Biggest Opportunities for Law Firms
• 05:54 - Learning from Other Industries
• 07:37 - Email Marketing and List Building in Legal
• 09:43 - Optimal Cadence for Outreach
• 12:38 - Legal Marketing Strategies and Follow-up
• 12:53 - Lead Conversion and Lead Nurture
• 17:38 - Everyone can Compete with the Big Firms with Google Maps and Local Service Ads
• 22:10 - Google Local Service Ads and Their Impact on Lawyers
• 24:09 - Google Business Profile (GBP) is like a Mini Website
• 25:19 - You can’t Trick “The Google”
• 26:25 - The Law Firm Growth Machine book
• 28:26 - Data-Driven Decision-Making for Law Firms
• 30:11 - Invest in Marketing
• 30:29 - Hire the Right People
• 31:19 - Where is the Data? What Gets Measured is Managed
• 32:57 - Life Lessons and Career Pivots
• 34:53 - Productivity Apps and Tips
• 35:50 - Book Recommendations
• 37:20 - Hidden Brain podcast
• 37:49 - Bill Maher podcast
• 38:26 - Huberman Labs podcast
• 38:50 - Connect with Kerri Coby White on LinkedIn

Book + Podcast Recommendations:

• Ten Golden Rules - Internet Marketing for Lawyers with Jay Berkowitz
• Atomic Habits by James Clear
• Hidden Brain podcast
• Bill Maher podcast
• Huberman Labs podcast

Mentioned Resources:

• Subscribe to Ten Golden Rules on YouTube
• Check out our webinars on TenGoldenRules.com
• Connect with Ten Golden Rules on LinkedIn
• Follow Ten Golden Rules on Facebook
• Connect with Jay Berkowitz on LinkedIn
• Connect with Kerri Coby White on LinkedIn

About Kerri Coby White:

Kerri Coby White is the founder and CEO of KerriJames and author of The Law Firm Growth Machine - A Proven System to Accelerate Your Firm's Growth in Just 30-Days. Kerri is a seasoned mentor, dynamic speaker, and expert in the realm of legal practice growth. At KerriJames, she revolutionizes legal practice growth by integrating advanced technology with the power of genuine human connection. Kerri's study of and passion for human behavior, communication, emotional intelligence, and the psychology of sales enable her to empower attorneys to identify, attract, retain, and activate clients to grow a thriving practice.

About Jay Berkowitz:

Jay Berkowitz is a digital marketing strategist with decades of experience in the industry. As the CEO of Ten Golden Rules, he has helped countless law firms and businesses harness the power of the internet to achieve remarkable growth and visibility. Jay is also a renowned keynote speaker and author, sharing his expertise at various industry events and publications worldwide.

About the Ten Golden Rules Internet Marketing for Law Firms Podcast

Join host Jay Berkowitz on an innovative journey through the world of digital marketing for the legal industry. With his expertise and passion, and world-class guests, Jay empowers legal professionals to thrive in the digital age. Explore topics like Search Engine Optimization, Google advertising, Artificial intelligence, intake strategies, content marketing, and other law firm growth strategies. Jay’s practical advice and industry expertise equip legal professionals to navigate the online world. This podcast is your invaluable resource for unlocking your law firm’s full potential. Get ready for an extraordinary adventure with Jay Berkowitz as your guide in the ever-changing realm of internet marketing for law firms. Your success story begins here!

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Kerri Coby White: bringing forth some of the most exciting and innovative ways to work as a law firm. So with these digital natives coming in to C suites with some of the changes we've seen in the industry as to who can participate at a partnership level in law firms, I think there's a lot of room for innovation for attorneys who are looking to be a little, a little more avant garde a little forward thinking and maybe not quite so stuck in the attorney space bubble.

Welcome to the 10 Golden Rules of internet marketing for law firms podcast, featuring the latest strategies and techniques to drive traffic to your website and convert that traffic into clients. Now, here's the founder and CEO of 10 golden rules, Jay Berkowitz.

Well, good morning. Good afternoon. Good evening. Welcome to the 10 Golden Rules of internet marketing for law firms podcast. It's Jay Berkowitz, I'm here today with a great guest, Kerri Coby White, she's going to tell us all about her book and our product for law firms. Two seconds before we get going, if you don't mind, take just one minute. And if you're listening to this on iTunes, or Spotify or something like that, give us a five star rating really helps us get great guests for future shows. And if you're watching on YouTube, or something like that, hit the subscribe button again, we look a little bit more popular in the future helps us get great guests. So Kerri, welcome to the 10 Golden Rules podcast. Tell us a little bit about your background.

Kerri Coby White: Thanks for having me, Jay. Well, I guess at this point, I'm on Kerri I think 4.0 Kerri 1.0 was actually a teacher. I taught gifted students in a middle school English program. So not a huge leap to go from gifted middle schoolers to working with attorneys.

Great. And so what's 2.0 3.0?

Kerri Coby White: Well, I guess it really evolved from there. So I left the classroom and went into nonprofit and met quite a few attorneys sitting on the board with sitting with the board members in the nonprofit, and just the nature of nonprofit when you know, grants were renewed and whatnot, I had some availability, and plenty of attorneys looking for a little support on marketing and communication side. So 3.0 really exposed me to the legal industry. And then 4.0 is when I really after my kids had grown a bit and I saw an opportunity to really grow the business that I partnered with James Brooks, my my partner and Kerri James, we always say the creative team was out that day. But Kerri James was born in the end of 2018, when it seemed like a great opportunity to really combine our two strengths, one being this human side of of really developing relationships and working with people and his side, which was more focused on digital space and automation. And so we combined those two and landed at 4.0.

Awesome. So what's the core product offering that you all provide to law firms today. So

Kerri Coby White: today, we're really working with some of those smaller firms after spending the last five years in really large, successful custom solutions for law firms to improve their intake and conversion, we've now created a solution to help smaller firms compete and be more productive and effective at doing all the little things that need to be done to successfully run a or to successfully grow a practice. So our current core offer right now is working in a 90 day program with a productivity and Mark marketing and intake tool to help law firms grow.

Awesome. What do you think some of the biggest opportunities are for law firms? Like, what do you see as the top two or three things that most firms could do to get better? Yeah,

Kerri Coby White: well, I think what's really interesting right now is certainly in the industry, there's been this reputation that we're kind of slow moving, slow movers. And so I kind of look at that as an opportunity. If you are a forward thinking lawyer, you just have to look at the industries around you and see what they're doing. And if you can see what they are doing, that's often going to be a step ahead of your, of your competition in the legal space. So certainly what I've noticed in other industries over the last several years is a whole lot of automation, use of data, effective data use, certainly AI becoming more prevalent by the day. And so you as an attorney, you kind of have this, this crystal ball of of sorts, where you can see what other industries are doing, and how you can leverage that in your practice. The biggest opportunity I see is that the folks who are really coming of age and leadership roles now are some of those digital natives, these guys who have who were all born with a cell phone in their hands, and so they're apt to do Take advantage of these of this moment this, you know what I referenced in the book as the fourth industrial revolution, a real change in how work is done. Unfortunately, for many practices, you know, it kind of goes back to my teaching days, I always say the legal industry kind of has a swing set rules, method of promotion, which is I was here first. So you end up rewarding people who have just been around the longest, when really, some of the new folks to the space can be bringing forth some of the most exciting and innovative ways to work as a law firm. So with these, these digital natives coming in to C suites, with some of the changes we've seen in the industry as to who can participate at a partnership level and law firms, I think there's a lot of room for innovation for attorneys who are looking to be a little, a little more avant garde, a little forward thinking and maybe not quite so stuck in the attorney space bubble.

I love that example of looking at the other industries. I remember as a Director of Marketing at Coca Cola, and we got a new CEO or regional manager ported in from another country. And this guy was like a rock star throughout the system. And he said, one of the things that we all need to learn to do is when we're calling on customers, and we're in a grocery store, you've got to go look at the other aisles. Meaning I've done that now my whole career. So instead of going and looking at what Pepsi is doing, because we should know what Pepsi is doing, when we're at Coca Cola, you know, go look in the chips and, and snacks aisle, and you could be like, the promotions they had on pack and, you know, the aisle, and l display caps, yes, things sticking out from the, you know, that became a great tool for me my entire career. So you're saying like, every other industry is ahead of law in terms of technology and AI and things like that.

Kerri Coby White: Not even that they're that, you know, every industry is going to be ahead, but sometimes, you know, you have to be exposed to other spaces. And I even say this, you know, as a as a conference networking tip, you know, when folks are getting ready to go to conferences for the first time, and, you know, how am I going to network this thing, you've got to be an interesting person, first and foremost. And if you're only focused on this single vertical, and you never get outside of it, you're missing opportunity to to see how things were done in other spaces. And I think being exposed not just to the legal industry, but to business at large is part of the CEO lawyers responsibility, you know, you need to know what's going on in your local business community, as well as your local legal community.

So how do you apply some of those things like you touched on technology? What are some basic technologies that other industries are ahead of the law firms? Yeah,

Kerri Coby White: well, I can tell you, I'd say it was probably 10 years ago that I started getting emails from Salesforce, and I was blown away at Priscilla's perseverance, I mean, she just wouldn't give up on me. And I had no idea that there were tools out there 10 years ago that could stay in touch with me for a lifetime. And the fact that 10 years later, I still know Priscilla's name from Salesforce is is a testament to the effectiveness of communicating over the long term with your contacts. And so certainly one of the one of the most overlooked aspects that for generating business, I think, is utilizing the list. And because we have tools like AI that can help us with content, and email automation that can get us in the inbox, we're just missing an opportunity if we aren't just slowly dripping on folks over a lifetime. I you know, I have said it myself quite a few times. I do think email is dead in so many ways. But I don't unsubscribe to many of the things that I want subscribe to. And I can tell you that even though I don't read everybody's newsletter, I know who's coming to my inbox. And so if you can combine those those assets, you know, the list building, the email delivery, and AI for creating content, then there's no reason why every law firm isn't longterm, nurturing their clients. I think that's that's a very low hanging fruit to help, literally for free, build your awareness in your, in your community with people who already know your name. And so if you're a firm that's been around a while, I mean, you should have you may be adding 10,000 contacts a year, you know, the thing and I really am a data dork. And that certainly comes from looking outside the industry, but data it we're sitting on it, it's incredibly valuable, and we're not utilizing it. So all those contacts, they are data points that that should be leveraged to grow your business. And

so the email lists like maybe, I think the most common one, we talked about his personal injury law firms who should be on the list, how frequently should you be emailing and maybe break down? You know, when you first get a contact? How often should you be emailing And then do they go on some type of retention or newsletter format? Sure.

Kerri Coby White: So what I've built into my system, I talk about it all the time. It's it's enough messaging that, that our messaging and the individuals readiness and availability intersect. Okay, so opportunity and availability, or excuse me, messaging and availability. We're all incredibly busy. And I remind intake folks regularly that we can't help people unless we can talk to them first. And so if you're insistent on helping people do what you do best, then I see no reason not to over communicate. So my, what I build into my systems is typically 2021 point conversion system from super hot to, to lukewarm, to downright cold. And that means that I'm going to reach out quickly, I'm going to stay in touch pretty aggressively over those first four days. Because that's, you know, I know they have this immediate need, but then I'm going to continue on and just say, you know, this, this case is still open on my desk. Have you spoken to anyone? And you know, two weeks later, listen, I guess I should go ahead and close this out unless you're ready to talk. Well, another week goes by Gotcha. Okay, I am going to close it. Now. If you have any questions, don't hesitate to reach out. And then after a month, I certainly hope you've recovered by now. Or that you've actually hired a lawyer do me a favor, let me know what you did. If you make these things very personal and human sounding, I think the long term outreach is a okay with with a lead, when it comes to any lead, then, if they've reached out to us, then we have the ability to communicate over the long term. And I think this is where education comes in or adding value in some way. So I just finished writing a long term nurture campaign for a dependency attorney who she works with parents who are under dealing with the state with their parental rights. And so you know, not a lot of people know a lot about that. So we used a long term nurture campaign to give them the ABCs of child dependency law. And given that there's 26 letters in the alphabet, that gave us an entire year's worth of content, to stay in front of people and give them value. If they never open one of those emails, they will still see our subject lines and our firm name. So you're just just adding people to something that's going to drip on them over the long term to me is, like I said, practically free. And a no brainer.

I always tell the story. Unfortunately, I was in a car accident, I guess about 10 years ago, now. A couple other employees, the company, and I went to the chiropractor, I said, I was in a car accident, they got really excited. They're like, Oh, my God car accident, you know, we've got a lawyer for you. And we've got all this free stuff. They started giving me creams and potions and seats and backrests. And it turned out that they did in fact get a lot of chiropractic work paid for by the attorney. Anyways, then unfortunately, like seven years after that, I got rear ended again. And I couldn't remember the name of the first lawyer. Now, of course, I could have figured it out. And of course, I deal with a bunch of lawyers and I hired a guy from my networking group. But the first guy made a big mistake, right? Huge mistake. He didn't, you know, he didn't send me a Christmas card. I'm Jewish, didn't send me a Hanukkah card, didn't send me an printed newsletter didn't send me an email newsletter, you know, and didn't connect with me on LinkedIn or Facebook. So literally, I couldn't remember the guy's name seven years later, I figured it out. But the point of this is, what is that long term nurture look like? And when do you give up on trying to, you know, like you said, close the case? And when do you just stay stay top of mind? And what's the best way to do that? Well,

Kerri Coby White: I do think that many firms have have done well, or at least better at improving the lead conversion with with follow up in the in that first seven days. You know, in my first little intake guide, I wrote that the in intake should not stand for ineffective, inconsistent and inefficient. And unfortunately, it's often those three things, there's not a set cadence that everyone goes through there, you're having to do things manually, and it's not very effective if that's the case. So this 21 Point touch that that I typically build out will have, like I said about 35 days of lead nurture. But I think the probably the the the the more important one that folks aren't implementing because that's assuming that we have a you know, what I call an E lead someone that's, you know, sent an email or engaged in a chat on your website or your an actual lead gen service. But when you have someone that calls and you don't follow up, you know, people don't like to make decisions very quickly. And so if you have a lead that you You've been on the phone with, and they haven't made a decision. That's the next follow up that I'm most worried about. So two things there. Jay, I think first and foremost, you never get off the call without scheduling the next appointment. So I understand you want to talk to your husband, I get it, I'm saying way, it's 230. Now, if this is a good time for you, I'll call you at 230 Tomorrow rate on my calendar, you know, just making sure that that next appointment is booked, never hang up without the retainer or the next appointment scheduled. If it's a case you want, the follow up from there, then is pretty easy to me. And again, if you just put it on autopilot, you don't have to worry about this, but an undecided caller gets dropped into a campaign. That's thanks so much for taking the time to meet with me. If you have any further questions, I just wanted to make sure you have my contact details please see below. And so now that that one was simple, simple, give them a day, if you don't hear back from them, or hopefully you made that call if you didn't get them, let them stay in that campaign. John, it's been two days since we spoke, have you made any decisions, I'd love to get this started so that we can get your, your your next meeting scheduled. This kind of follow through is super important. And Jay, I can't remember who I read this from years ago, but it was, you know, seven words that will save you from ever having to say just following up. And it was so effective for me. I've used it many, many, many, many times, have you given up on this project. And so, you know, just just sending a one line text that says have you given up on this claim, is really effective at making people say, oh, gosh, they're going to close my file, which is another one that that I use regularly, to really make people say, oh, shoot, I better do this. Now. You know, we're all again, it's about messaging and availability intersecting, we're all so busy, we know there's another message coming. And, you know, if I've got the kids in the car or dinner on the table, you know, we just have to keep trying. And again, you can't help someone until you convert them. So I keep that the next follow up for a post consultation or POST call follow up, probably another eight touches between emails, texts, and calls. And I think that those are the ones that are hottest, and always drop in that authority building. You know, if you're, I imagine you're still debating what your next step should be. Please do check out our many five star reviews, we're really proud of what we've done here. And I know we can help. Again, make it human, make it personal, make sure you use people's name. And of course, you know, with all the FCC requirements, we need to give people the right to opt out. But again, keep that human and just say if you prefer I not contact you by text, just let me know. I do include that. But I make sure that it sounds human. It's

fantastic. You mentioned something earlier that I thought was worth touching a little bit more detail. You talked about like the traditional and sort of the new opportunities. And one of the things that I see is Google's leveled the playing field a lot with in particular with the new local service ads. And even with maps and sort of closeness, the term is proximity. So even the smaller firms have a chance to compete with Morgan Morgan or whoever the big guy is in the market, the local service ads, Google screen program, we're all over that because the little guy gets a chance to compete. Your Google Maps is now based on proximity. So you know, if you're not located in a building with five other lawyers, you've got a chance to stand out for the Three Mile five mile Seven Mile grid. So what do you think about you know, the guy having a chance now? How do they play ball with Morgan Morgan?

Kerri Coby White: Yeah, that is truly what what the the book and the program that we've put together is all about. I mean, I just kind of come at this from a couple of different perspectives. And my oldest went off to college. And we were insistent that she find a career path that there was something very intentional about what she was studying and where she would go for a job after that. And I just got to thinking about all these attorneys who invest so mightily in their career, and then they're left without a means for or not not without a means they have the means for doing a job. They have this really specialized, highly specialized skill, but they haven't been taught how to turn it into a business. And then Google came along and made this incredible solution that all of a sudden made everybody able to market without having to go to a marketing firm with a minimum. And so it really did level the playing field. And so we built in to the system. Everything about Google Local. And honestly, Jay, I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on this just because of your expertise and LSAS. I found the timing of LSA, really shocking. It was COVID era that that LSA really catapulted in, in the legal space. And we've never needed to be near someone less than we are now. I mean, look, I'm up in Virginia, you're in Florida. You know, my business partner lives in Ireland. We work with people all over the world. And yet Google says, but if they're not next door to you, then I don't want you to get that. I don't want you to be served that ad which is really Interesting to me, I feel like it's it's such a contradiction that Google put such a premium on local. But that created the opportunity, of course, for the little guys. Now, the way I look at it with, again, the fact that attorneys invest so heavily in their education, I believe, truly at my core that you shouldn't have to sell out. But you shouldn't have to go be a lawyer for Morgan and Morgan to be able to have a good business. And so for the many people who want to be a small firm, or a modest firm, or even a solo practitioner, there is a means to doing this well. But it includes playing by Google's rules. And I put that in the book, one of the five harsh realities is that it's Google's world, we're just living in it. And we have to accept the fact that Google has certain requirements and certain expectations. And if you do these things, then you can have a piece of the pie. And here's why. And I think this is also very important. Google wants everybody's money. You know, if you have great success, you may start spending more. And so Google is not in favor of giving all the business to just the one gorilla in the room, they want to feed everybody. So if you play by Google's rules, and you track your data, manage your manager budget, because it's all very doable. If you have the right tools in place, then you can get your piece of the pie. And Google will reward you when you play by their rules. So it's a bit of a dance, but law school didn't teach that. And I strongly recommend that that attorneys figure out how to generate business. I mean, I guess that's even the biggest part of of the equation to begin with is, what is your strategy? Like? What is your plan here? How do you intend to get business? And that has to be something that is thought about with intention, you know, this is my plan. And you know, I always think of this in terms of my own business, and certainly how I met the likes of you and the folks that that you've pulled together, Jay, and on the podcast, especially, you know, my my goal was to get around people who were already working with lawyers, that was my business acquisition strategy. And for many lawyers, they're kind of coming out of law school without a real plan. And so Google is one plan and that, and you can win with that plan if you play by their rules.

That's great. Yeah, I mean, you asked about my take on the local service ads, particularly in the Google screen, you know, it really came out and became a big thing for lawyers during COVID. But they started six or seven years ago, within home services. And so that made

Kerri Coby White: way more sense. Yeah. And surely, like the green check to knowing that the plumber who was walking in my house was Google certified. But I guess, you know, like everything else, they see an opportunity with attorneys, and they know we're showing up for it. So it didn't make sense with others. But it's interesting with attorneys,

a lot of people have a lot of different theories. But my theory is pretty simple. Like, the reason Google did this, introduced the local service ads was they were losing a lot of revenue on clicks to the maps. Because in when used to search like, you know, Car Accident Lawyer near me, or divorce attorney, Boca Raton, right, which is where I'm located, what Google would show is the Pay Per Click ads at the top, then the maps, then the SEO, and the maps, had a click to call function. And Google wasn't making any money on that. And a lot of people were clicking that and not clicking the pay per click. So my theory is really simple. They invented these local service ads for two reasons. Obviously, they're they're screening, they're giving some quality verification or screening process for attorneys and plumbers, and air conditioning guys. So they're kind of putting their checkmark on firms. But secondarily, the more importantly, from Google's perspective, they're charging us now for that click apps in the Google screen. So you know, really simply, they took something that was costing them money, the free clicks to the maps, calls, and taking away from pay per clicks. And they put it at the very top, and now they're making money and every one of those calls. And by the way, we love those calls, like we, like every fantastic calls convert way better than then clicks to the web page. So we love the completely.

Kerri Coby White: You know, the other thing that obviously Google has done and has been, I think, for most users a benefit, you get the Google business profile, which again, you know, in our 90 Day program, we're very focused on the Google business profile. For this reason Google is giving you and not only the sponsored ads and the LSA and the map with a checkmark. They're also giving you answers. So if you were Googling something that once drove people to your blog posts, now they're giving you the answer. So you're not going to the website for that either, which really hurts the SEO element that you're paying for. So this Google business profile, when I tell people is your microsite, you have to be focused on that it is it's like managing another another social media space or another website. It is really important because people use that and again, If you're playing by Google's rules, you're engaging in all of that. I always say Google is a living, thriving beast, and it likes to be fed a steady diet of content and five star reviews and replies, and repost. And if you aren't doing that, they will reward you. So I like to appease the Google gods, I

like the way you said it, you said, it's Google's world, we're just living in it. Number five, I have the counter to that, which is, it's not nice to mess with Mother Nature. And when you try and trick the Google in some way, or do any Blackhat activities, they're gonna shut you down. And like, the maps like, not worth it don't have a fake Google Maps location, because they'll shut down your main office maps. Exactly.

Kerri Coby White: And that's, again, playing by the rules, we have to recognize whose world we're living in. And so that's that that is such an important one. And I mentioned that specifically in the review Chapter, you know, you've got to get good reviews, you can't get them. And Google will punish you for that. It's not worth it. And which isn't, you know, just another point generally about diversifying your tactics because you want to make sure that God forbid, you know, what happened if, you know, Capitol Hill, shut down Facebook, and that's where you really weren't getting all your leads, you know, you just have to, you have to be thinking about these things and, and play by the rules, there's always enough money to be made ethically, it's never worth going a Blackhat route. But

I apologize, we got into so many interesting things. haven't asked you about your book. So the law firm growth machine system to accelerate your firm's growth. Tell us about your new book. Sure.

Kerri Coby White: So again, I think this kind of was born from both the fact that we really wanted to transition to working with some of these smaller firms after this very custom work over the last five years, but also just a recognition that it's gotten hard, you know, it is, there are just some really harsh realities. The number of lawyers in this country grew by like 700%, in the last in the last century. And so that's way outpaced population, the competition is tough, the prices are high, the margins are shrinking. And even these are just realities that we have to live in. So when things are really challenging, we need we need tools to help us win. And that's where as much as I, even myself, as the author of the book, find it a super cheesy title, the law firm growth machine, it's cheesy, but it's very, it's very factual in terms of the concept, by definition, a machine makes it possible to do work with less energy and effort. And that's what the machine does, it takes all these little things that we know are so important to do. And it makes it easier to do them. So you spend less time less energy less effort to achieve a better outcome. And we've done that with the realities, those the five harsh realities in mind that it is Google's world that the competition is fierce, that lawyers don't often know their numbers, which means you can get really out of budget quickly if you don't, if you don't account for that. And that we you know, we know you can't do this alone. And there are great people who can support various efforts of your business. But what we've done is really tie it all together into something neat and applicable that you can plug into and and connect the dots. So

what are two or three things from the book that every law firm should be doing? Well, you already you haven't already touched on?

Kerri Coby White: Yeah, I guess I you know, I'd have to go certainly with the Google aspect. But we've covered that. So I'm going to focus on data. Like I said, looking into other industries, you can see the companies that that are taking over industries are those that are data centric, you know, Netflix is telling you what you should watch next, based on data, Amazon's telling you what to buy next, based on data, Disney recognize the value of data, so much so that they gave up a $3 billion a year earnings to invest in their own data and creating Disney plus. So as a law firm CEO, you need to get a handle on your data, which is your contacts, your cost your your marketing sources and referral sources. We build all that into our system, because we know how critical it is when it comes to doing well. It back to those harsh realities, the challenges that attorneys are facing. Like I said, there are a lot of opportunities out there, but it is very easy to overspend, and not not necessarily generate profit, you know, sometimes you generate more revenue, but the same profit which makes working harder or more feel really lousy. So we, you know, we've built into the system, all the dashboards that can help really drive your decision making so that you are increasing profit, not just revenue or, or workload but genuine profit. So data would be a super big one for me. I guess the the other thing is, you know, what I don't want to overlook in in light of everything that we've covered I heard on digital and automation and all these things. The The reality is that this is still a customer service based business and people need to serve their clients. In chapter eight, I cover the four fundamentals, you know, things that you just have to do, you have to have some sort of marketing investment, which is you know why folks come to you, Jay, they need someone to do the marketing. So great, you got some sort of marketing investment, you've got a brand people know who you are and what you do, and why you're different than the guy down the block. But you also need the right people. And these people have to be respectfully compensated professionals who care about the people who are picking up the phone to call them in this moment of need. I say it all the time. But nobody calls a law firm because they're having a good day. So you need someone to meet people where they are, which is certainly with empathy, but you also need to lead you need the authority to get these people through this moment, really take charge. So invest in the right people, it will benefit your firm in the long run, invest in training, because it will benefit your firm. In the long run, you know, a One Time Expense could net benefits on on the intake side for the next decade. So you know, make sure that you you have the right people and that you keep clear on your firm's status as a client service based business. You touched

on the data. And you know, it's amazing to me, we get on calls with new prospects. How many people don't know the basic things, they don't know their numbers? How many? How many cases? Do you sign a month? What you know, how many calls do you get? How many form fields, how many chats? At the very basic go go? You know, write these things down? And go figure it out for your firm? How many? How many forms? How many chats? What percentage of each of those do you sign each month? And how many cases do you average sign each month? And what's the value of per case? Like if you don't know those basics and track them? And well, like I always say, what you measure gets attention and improves? Absolutely. So if you're not tracking it in your leadership team meeting every week, you know, how are you going to improve it

Kerri Coby White: completely? What's measured is managed. And again, that's one of the harsh realities, attorneys don't know their numbers. And I think that it's hard without the right tools in place. When I when I speak about data, I talk regularly about centralize visualize, analyze, you've got to bring all this data together, you've got to create something that you can make sense of it. And that often requires that you not just have someone who understands data, but someone who understands your business, ideally, the CEO of the law firm, the law firm owner, hopefully, and then you need to analyze this data so that you can make better decisions. Centralizing tends to be the most challenging part for many attorneys. And that's why, you know, a huge part of what we've built out is bringing all of this together, my marketing data is, is correlated with my intake data that that is closing the loop that is going to help you drive profits.

Fantastic. Always wrap up with some quick questions. You know, what's a good example from your career? When you made one of these pivots you talked about for in your career? What's a good lesson to a young attorney or a young person just, you know, graduating law school or business school, but one of the pivots and how it could be a life lesson for someone else? Yeah,

Kerri Coby White: gosh, I feel like I've actually been the queen of pivoting in recent history, even not when I've intended to. And I think that's just about keeping your eyes wide open. And when I started doing marketing for law firms, I was all about marketing. But if the intake team wasn't good than it didn't matter how effective my marketing was, I wasn't going to get credit for it. So I had to become really good at intake. And then I got so good at intake because I was so focused on conversion, that I was tracking all this stuff. And the outputs were data. So then I got so excited about data that I had to focus on that. And so you can see how just being open to what comes next is really a transformative experience. So keep your eyes open. I you know, and I would honestly say that, like when I met my business partner, five years ago, he kept saying he kept pivoting our business. And I was like, Nah, you know, the, the success of the postage stamp its is its ability to stick to one thing until it gets there. And I wanted to be a postage stamp. And yet, the business just wasn't meant to be a postage stamp. It had to evolve. And it was the innate evolution of the business that has made us the most successful. You know, I say it all the time clicks aren't clients, I had to get good at intake intake produced all this data, data produced results. So we always have to be thinking about where this affects the next piece of the puzzle and be open to that to that. Don't be like a postage stamp, I guess would be my advice to the young folks. That's

awesome. What are some apps that you like or any tips or tools for personal productivity? Oh, Okay,

Kerri Coby White: so I'm gonna go old school here because I, you know, when we were chatting, I mentioned I was a Slack addict. And so if you're not using Slack or or teams, whatever it may be for your practice, by all means get in that get off of email with your team email is an external communication tool only. But I am so old school I love a hard bound book with a lengthy lifts and lots of them. So without the paper and pencil, I actually think that we underestimate the value of writing with a pen. It you know, the teacher may can tell you that that has significant different effects on the brain. So don't give up your pencil and paper.

Yeah, I've got the hard, hard bound to do. I love it. Yeah. Even though I go back and forth with digital, it's too easy to get distracted.

Kerri Coby White: It's true. It's true. It's true.

Do you have some best business books that are on your must read? Yeah, they

Kerri Coby White: are. And I feel like you know, it's certainly in marketing with so many of us who have spent time in marketing and can can can speak to nudge or persuasion, and I love all those, I'm still going to go with the one that that I think of most often, which is atomic habits by James clear, and the Valley of disappointment. I think folks need to understand the effect of compounding in every area of their life, compounding interest in your finances, compounding effects in your business, compounding effects in your health. All of these things take a very different curve than we expect. You know, when we when we think about growth, we tend to think of a straight line trajectory. Whereas the real curve is much more of an elbow shape. It's the hockey stick of exponential growth. And the delta between those two lines, James clear calls the Valley of disappointment. And whenever I'm having a day that really hits me hard, I remind myself with the Valley of disappointment, it has been transformative in my ability to stick with it when the going gets tough. So kudos to James clear, that book was probably the most impactful for me.

I always love these questions, because I get my reading list. I have the book but I haven't read it. Simple brilliance, same thing. What are some subscriptions that you never miss each week or each month? blogs, podcasts, YouTube.

Kerri Coby White: So I am on the podcast side, this is probably one that would fit the the criteria when it comes to looking outside your industry. I'm a hidden brain junkie. It's an NPR podcast on why humans do things humans do. And that is incredibly effective learning for whatever industry you're in. But especially for for marketing folks and for attorneys. Hidden brain is fascinating, interesting. And I love to see what makes people tick. I also love love love Bill Maher. I never miss him. So he's on my The first thing I pull up when I open my eyes on Monday morning, because I don't stay up that late on Friday nights. But I've never missed that.

And so he listened to it as a podcast.

Kerri Coby White: I pull it up on YouTube he and again, I guess it just goes to I think it's this moment in time in my life where I still don't really quite recognize how much older I am until I start listening to what other young people are doing and feel like, oh gosh, I am getting old. When you know you're getting old when you think everybody else is crazy. So

how about Huberman labs? Have you heard that podcast? I have not seems like it's super buzzy. Everyone's talking about it enjoy it because it's a lot of the you know, radio

Kerri Coby White: lab is another I mean I love storytelling. But again anything that hits on just just humanity. I like seeing what makes human human

Awesome. Well last questions easy one where can people get in touch with you?

Kerri Coby White: Oh please connect with me everywhere in anywhere Kerri ke R R i Coby, white coby C O B Y, white Like the color, LinkedIn, Facebook, Instagram all the same. And you can follow the law firm growth machine at law firm growth machine on Instagram.

Awesome. Well, thanks for doing this Kerri and we look forward to lots more stuff in the future.

Kerri Coby White: Thank you so much for having me.

Thank you for listening to the 10 Golden Rules of internet marketing for law firms podcast. Please send questions and comments to podcast at 10 Golden rules.com That is podcast at t e n Golden rules.com