Dr. Shelby Kretz is the creator of Little Justice Leaders, an organization that provides social justice education resources for educators and families. Shelby earned her Ph.D. in Education from UCLA, and her research explores social justice education at the elementary school level. Over the past decade, Shelby has worked with thousands of parents, teachers, and school leaders to bring social justice education to elementary aged kids.

She emphasizes that biases begin to form as early as three years old, making it crucial for educators and parents to have resources that support age-appropriate conversations about complex topics such as race, gender, and disability justice.

With a focus on collaboration and continuous learning, this conversation underscores the significance of fostering critical thinking and empathy in children as they navigate today’s multifaceted world.

Takeaways:

• Parents and educators must engage young children in conversations about social justice early.
• Little Justice Leaders provides resources for teachers to address complex social issues effectively.
• The shift to digital resources allows for more accessibility and affordability in education.
• Building a supportive community among educators fosters collaboration and shared learning experiences.
• It's crucial to keep up with changing language and terminology surrounding social justice topics.
• Creating a curriculum that evolves with students ensures they grasp the principles of justice.

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So many parents and teachers didn't know how to talk to their students or their young children about what they were hearing in the news.

It's unlikely that you are an expert on every single topic, right?

Disability justice, racial justice, gender justice, immigration justice.

There are so many that we could go on.

Bias starts ages 3, 4, 5 years old, right.

So if kids aren't starting to get this kind of education until they're know, in high school or later, then those biases have already had a lot of time to develop.

We recently switched to the digital model for a few reasons.

One, to be able to reach international audiences and then, of course, to make it more affordable for educators.

I want a teacher, you know, let's say they have an issue with racial slurs coming up in their classroom.

Now they can come into our community and find resources.

They don't have to wait for a box or they don't have to wait for us to cover that topic and they can get what they need.

In this moment, we make so many of our resources free because I want everyone to do this work.

She always used to say, like, we need more female PhDs.

Like, we need more female PhDs.

So really, really, really pushed me into that work.

Hello and welcome back to the Education on Far podcast.

That was Dr.

Shelby Kretz and she is the founder of Little Justice Leaders.

Now they have everything you need to talk about social justice, and I really hope you enjoy this convers.

My continued thanks to the national association for Primary Education for their support of the show.

Please check out everything they're doing related to their podcast, to the conferences and everything they're doing online.

It's nape.orguk that's nape.orguk.

hello, my name is Mark Taylor and welcome to the Education on Far podcast.

The place for creative and inspiring learning from around the world.

Listen to teachers, parents and mentors, share how they are supporting children to live their best authentic life and are proving to be a guiding light to us all.

Hi, Shelby, thank you so much for joining us here on the Education on Far podcast.

It's great to chat to people from around the world and also great for people doing something slightly different, but in a really positive way.

So, yeah, really looking forward to this conversation.

Thanks so much for joining us.

Thank you so much for having me, Mark.

I'm really excited for this conversation as well.

So take us straight into Little Justice Leaders.

Tell us sort of exactly what that is, first of all, and then we'll sort of reverse back into sort of how it all got going.

Absolutely.

So Little justice leaders.

We help parents, caregivers, educators and schools talk to young students, so elementary school students about topics of social justice.

And we do that through digital monthly membership for teachers and caregivers where they can access resources that are going to be age appropriate for elementary school schoolers.

So we're talking about kids ages, let's say 4 to 11 or 12 years old.

And we also have a school based program now that we're rolling out in schools that want to think about justice on a more systemic level.

And do you find that, I would imagine what the most important thing about this is, is the fact that even if people have this in their mind as something they feel is important and they're sort of trying to sort of offer it as part of the conversations that are going on.

Like I say, in those sort of different settings, it's hard to do unless you have some kind of idea of what you're going to do, how you're going to say it.

Like you say, having those resources and that support network around, and I guess that's really where you sort of come into your own.

Exactly, exactly.

I mean, this is really hard to do for, for kind of a couple of main reasons.

I think the first is we're talking about young kids, right?

It's then these are complex issues.

So just understanding how do we make something that feels so big and sometimes scary, you know, and break that down for a five year old or a six year old or a seven year.

That's challenge number one.

Challenge number two is staying up to date on all of these issues.

Right.

There are so many issues of justice in our world.

And even if, let's say, maybe you're very passionate about environmental sustainability or you're involved in movements of the LGBTQ community, it's unlikely that you are an expert on every single topic.

Disability justice, racial justice, gender justice, immigration justice.

There are so many that we could go on for parents and teachers to stay up to date on all those topics in addition to everything else that they're doing, and then be able to break them down, for young kids, it's just a lot.

It's really hard.

So that's why we want to, you know, make this easier for folks.

And it just sort of struck me there that you can think about this and talk about this in general terms, but I suppose there's a certain legality as well about certain terminology and certain ways that you need to approach certain areas like, say, which are always changing, but also they are quite important to make sure that you have that Terminology.

And you're actually discussing it in the right way.

Absolutely.

So, I mean, I think there's that, that, that's part of really staying up to date on, on what's going on in the movements because our language is always changing how we talk about these things, and then, you know, shifting to not only how do we talk about these topics as adults, but now how do we bring these topics to kids?

So there's just kind of a lot of moving parts and factors to, to think about and stay up to date on.

And it's not realistic for, for most folks to really be able to, to keep up with the changing language, the changing kind in social justice.

So where did this passion come from for you so specifically?

And then how did you kind of bring that into wanting to do it for this age group and been able to support people in that way?

Yeah, so my background is all in education, so I've worked in after school programming.

I was a school counselor, and then I went back to school to work on my PhD in education at UCLA.

So whether that was, you know, sometimes xenophobic or misogynistic comments or, you know, just in general kind of the rhetoric around that time period, that was in the news and social media.

And so a lot of them just weren't having the conversation.

And that really concerned me because I knew that kids, kids are hearing about these things.

Right.

Whether they hear about them from us or from less trusted sources.

And so that's what really kind of got me thinking.

Because I realized this is really hard for folks and, you know, it's, it's really hard to find the right thing.

So what if I start kind of offering them and seeing if, if people are interested?

And I focused on elementary school because there was absolutely, I mean, almost nothing, next to nothing, especially back then for this age range.

Right.

We saw a lot when it came to, I shouldn't even say a lot.

There were some when it came to middle school, high school, older students, some at the college level.

But the reality is, we know bias starts ages 3, 4, 5 years old.

Right.

So if kids aren't starting to get this kind of education until they're, you know, in high school or later, then those biases have already had a lot of time to develop.

And you only know what you know, don't you like to say, when you're young, especially, whatever you hear, you sort of think about parents and people around that.

You at that immediate community.

So, which is why, you know, people grow up in so many different ways, because you sort of know what you think the world is before you sort of hear it from other places.

But like, say, when you have someone who's very influential, whether it's a president, whether it's someone in seemingly authority, whether they're a celebrity or something like that, it's very easy to think, well, that must be right, or this is the truth, because that person's got that kind of authority.

So I can see why it's been such an important part for you.

Absolutely.

I think that that's so important and just recognizing how young people have so much more access to media than they ever have before.

Right.

In the past, let's say 20 years ago, if you were a parent, you knew what your child was watching on tv, and that was pretty much the only source of media that they were taking, so you knew what they were seeing.

Whereas now with social media, with YouTube, with so much access to the Internet, everywhere kids go, parents cannot.

It's not reasonable in most cases for parents to keep track of everything that their child is seeing.

So you might think you're shielding them from certain news or, you know, certain world events.

But the reality is, if they have access to the Internet, it's likely that they're seeing more than we may realize.

And that certainly strikes a chord with me because like you say, one telly in the corner of the living room, which is probably where your mum or dad may well have been anyway, or even, I remember sort of slightly after that, even if you've got one in a different room, which is a family room of some description or whatever, like, say, you know exactly what's going on.

And certainly having sort of kids who've been through this sort of social media world, I think the one thing you notice is that there are certain boundaries you can put in place.

But even families that I know that have put serious boundaries in place, you're not with your kids all the time.

They're going to school, they're on their way to school, they're having a sleepover, so they're going to see it.

Like you said, they're going to be aware of these things and I think actually giving them the skills that they need to make those informed decisions and to understand that and even know that they shouldn't be watching something or would rather leave that alone or ask a question about it is a really positive way.

But I think it's the fearful side of that that you sort of think you want to keep them safe by keeping it out of sight, out of mind, but not necessarily the best way forward.

Exactly.

I mean, I wish we could, you know, shield kids from a lot of the world issues.

I really wish we could, but it's not the reality of our society today.

It's just simply not realistic.

And so they're getting this information from somewhere.

The question is, are they getting it from a trusted source, like a teacher or family member, or are they getting it from, you know, other 8 year olds at school or, you know, their 10 year old cousin or worse, you know, the media, like.

Right, like YouTube, tick tock, Instagram.

So you know, where are they getting the information?

Because it's not a matter of if they're getting it anymore.

Yeah, whatever's popular at the time, as I say, just come.

Yes, exactly.

So, so tell me, in terms of how you sort of put this together, did you sort of decide what you thought was going to be important and then people sort of gave you some feedback on that or did you get a collection of people first and then sort of see where it took you?

I'm sort of always sort of fascinated from that sort of members side as well as the sort of the content side as well.

Yeah.

So we actually started as a subscription box company, so we were sending physical boxes every month and each box would cover a different topic of social justice.

We worked with folks who had lived, experience and expertise on that topic.

So we were kind of always just chunking like, you know, we're talking about race and racism or we're talking about gender and we're talking about immigration.

Right.

We recently switched to the digital model for a few reasons.

One, to be able to reach international audiences.

Right.

Who otherwise wouldn't be able to afford the international shipping.

Of course.

And then of course to make it more affordable for educators in general and to integrate the content more.

Right.

Because so we're not just talking about one issue at a time, but we're kind of talking about all the issues.

So because we did it that way, we now had, you know, six years worth of curriculum, lesson plans and content that we're kind of able to put into the digital Community.

So at this point, pretty much anything anyone's going to ask for, we probably have a resource for that.

So our community, we didn't put everything in there just because it would be way too overwhelming.

But, you know, if our community member, you know, comes and says, hey, I want like a lesson on disabilities for second graders, we can, we can probably find that and make that happen.

So at this point we have so much content, which is great that, that we can access anything.

But yeah, it's really been iterations over time.

Right.

Folks would request certain topics.

A lot of our community members would request.

Request topics.

Or we'd have experts come to us and say, hey, you know what?

No one's talking about, like, we need, we need to cover this topic.

And then pretty much like everything in between, it was, it's very much been like collaborative with, with our community, whether those are, you know, our subscribers or just activists who we connect with on a regular basis.

Yeah, I really like that.

And I can see, I mean, we're sort of talking about the election and sort of presidential campaign over in America.

And it makes sense because you've got various issues that people are talking about.

And then that comes.

How does that look in your area, which is obviously going to be state by state.

And I think to be able to sort of see these things in the round and like I say, take pieces of hair and pieces of there to kind of give an overall view rather than today we're just talking about this is.

Is a much more realistic idea of what people are actually thinking as well as sort what they need to cover.

Yes, exactly.

Because I want a teacher, you know, let's say they have an issue with racial slurs coming up in their classroom now they can come into, you know, our community and find resources now.

Right.

They don't have to wait for a box or they don't have to wait for us to cover that topic and they can get what they need in this moment.

I think that's really important, especially as we know around the world, teachers are navigating difficult conversations and questions and sometimes hateful language even coming up in the classroom.

And, you know, having that supportive community and resources on how to deal with it, I think is really going to be important for folks.

And do you see overall themes of.

Of topics or certain areas that people are wanting to cover?

And like I say, with all those resources, I'm sure, like I say, you've covered everything.

But, but sort of.

Is it sort of a general kind of format that people are starting to show you and ask for.

Yeah, I think some of two of the biggest ones, I would say actually three.

Anti racism.

I think that's a huge one.

You know, teachers want to be really mindful of it, of course.

And unfortunately, seeing a lot of racialized hate language in the classroom coming up more and more around the world, really, which is, you know, disheartening, but that, that makes it a topic that folks are really interested in kind of digging into with their little ones.

The second one is LGBTQ identities.

I think this is really controversial for a lot of folks and it can be very hard to understand.

How do we introduce this in a way that's age appropriate?

Right.

Because I think some folks, you know, want to be able to kind of introduce that diversity, but aren't quite sure how to do it for certain age ranges.

So that one's very popular and becoming more and more popular as well is religious diversity and understanding different religious points of view.

A lot of folks, I think, are wanting their.

Their little ones to understand different belief systems and of course, respect different belief systems.

And so that one's becoming more and more pop too.

And I think for me, as I get older as well, you sort of forget the perspective of the young people in the world that they live.

I sort of think certainly for my kids, it's that kind of.

They don't know what it was like before the Internet.

They don't know what it was like before social media.

Whereas as you get older, you have that perspective of kind of as if you think you can have a conversation with that overall or that oversight of kind of.

Well, before this, this was like this, whatever.

But that's not what they know, it's not what they understand.

So I guess you have to sort of develop the courses and all the resource material in a different way, which I think is difficult as a grown up in inverted commas to understand.

And that's like you say you've got that real sort of insight and that professional background.

Yeah, I mean, that's what we try to do.

Right.

It's always meeting them where they're at.

I say that for the kids, of course, but that's true for the adults too.

Right.

Some of these issues are complicated.

Folks don't always have the same ideas and opinions.

And so it's really not about this is what to believe, but meeting people where they're at, being in conversation, being in community.

And I think, you know, that's the case with our kids too.

Just we may approach it a little differently.

And when we think about you know, how do we connect with them given their worldview, given how they understand the world.

So take us into, into the difference between sort of how it first started.

Like you said, it's parents and caregivers and people that are doing it sort of in that individual way as opposed to like say the new sort of school program set up in.

Is it the same material just packaged differently or, or the way you go about it sort of give us a little bit of information about that.

Yeah, so it's a lot of the same material in our school program, but in our schools program we're thinking kind of more holistically about a school culture.

So the schools get a full preschool through sixth grade curriculum.

So that's not accessible in our like individual program.

So that's kind of the big thing for the schools is it's going to be a full curriculum that their teachers can follow preschool through grade six.

So that's ages three through like for those in different parts of the world.

But.

And that is going to build on itself.

Right.

So when your student goes through the kindergarten curriculum and then they go into first grade, they're deepening their skills as they go year over year.

The schools also get ongoing training.

So every month their educators are going to get access to a new training module on social justice and education.

So we're covering all different topics of whether that's how to support specific student groups like let's say, how to support your neurodivergent learners or how to support your trans and non binary learners or whether it's covering specific topics or just generally thinking about topics like how do I decolonize my classroom?

Which is a training we're having this week.

So lots of kind of different, different trainings there.

And then they also get access to the community, which is what our individuals get as well.

So that's, you know, resources, additional support and also connection to other educators who are doing this work.

Yeah, that I think the community makes a big difference.

Does it?

And I love that sort of essence that you're basically building an environment that teachers and schools and people can step into.

And I think having that kind of consistency over a number of years, I think it helps really sort of hone in the message that you're trying to do, even if the topics are different.

Because there must be a.

There's a way of understanding it and feeling it and kind of navigating it, which then feels very natural.

And then I think gives that sort of progression, like you say, as you're going through.

Exactly, exactly.

And that's the goal where they, they start to kind of understand more and more.

They, and they understand the principles.

Right.

Like when I talk about social justice, I haven't talked about.

There are some principles that we can talk about that apply to all the different issues because it can feel like, oh, there's so many things to cover, they're all different, so much to learn.

But at the end of the day, like understanding the principles of how do we approach these issues, what are some of the core things that we're thinking about?

And that I think can, can really help, you know, educators, and it helps students because they start to learn again, they learn themselves, the principles, maybe a different language, but that's kind of what they're, they're starting to get over the years.

And I really love the idea of community because I think you learn so much about, about people, but also about sort of the overall areas in the way that you're presenting it in your particular scenario.

It's a little bit like going to an in person conference, isn't it?

You sort of learn stuff in the workshops and all the talks and everything.

But it's the, it's the conversation you have in the lobby or in the bar or something which kind of you think, oh, there's a relationship here, there's someone I want to get to know here, or even find something that you would have never found out within the, the official part of it.

But it's sort of those things.

I'd imagine that's the same in sort of the virtual sense as well.

Absolutely.

I mean, that's always the goal.

It's, it's difficult, of course, to get a virtual community, you know, really going and vibrant.

So, so that's like always going to be a challenge.

But that is what that space is for.

So it's, you know, a teacher can come in and say, hey, I'm dealing with, you know, kids coming in and using RA slurs in my 4th grade classroom.

Has anyone else dealt with this?

What have you done?

How do you handle it?

Right.

And then alongside that they can go get our resources on racial justice.

Right.

And they can start to incorporate those, or they can come in and say, hey, my first graders just got like really excited about climate justice and you know, does anyone have really good resources?

Where do I start with this, with this grade level on this topic?

And so it's just like this really great space where teachers and, and family members too can come in and connect and share resources, share advice, share support.

Right.

Sometimes it's just like, this is hard.

I had a really uncomfortable situation come up because students, you know, we never know what's going to come out of their mouth, and I had no idea how to handle it.

And then teachers can come in and say, yeah, hey, like, I've had something like that too.

We all have stories like that.

And so, yeah, I think that that space is really important for that, for that reason.

And I hope it, you know, feels really, really helpful for, for our community.

And I think that understanding that even when you think you set yourself up in the best possible way, like I say, you signed up, you have all the resources, you' support network you need.

And then you get blindsided, like, say, by a comment or something, which you just weren't expecting.

And then, like I say, you either need a shoulder to cry on or like you say, or a question or just someone to say.

The reason that we're all here is because we, we get it and we understand it and we're going through the same, the same experience, even if it's a different particular situation.

And I think there's something very supportive about that where you feel like you've got a group of friends or a group of people who are living your world because there are loads of things out there that you can be part of.

But there's something very nice about feeling something which people are excited about delivering, but, like, say, also having their backs as well.

Yeah, yeah, exactly.

I think it's especially important in this work.

One of the, you know, things I always tell teachers from the start is, like, one thing you can count on is there will be times when you don't know what to say.

Right?

There will be times when a student asks a question and you don't know the answer.

There will be times when something, something really uncomfortable happens in your classroom or where you handle something and later you realize you handled it all wrong.

Like, all of those things will happen.

And I try to tell teachers that from the start so, you know, they're not surprised when it does happen to them.

And there's no preparing for every scenario that can come up.

But it is, it is about, okay, I learned I'm going to do it better next time.

I'm going to connect with my community and get support and be reminded that I'm not the only one going through this.

And then I'm going to move forward and continue to, to do this work because it matters.

And it's going to be uncomfortable and hard, but I care about this, so I'm going to keep doing it.

Right, Yeah, I love that because so often we often speak on the podcast about the fact that when you can have be on a learning journey together, then everyone benefits because there's so many positive things.

And I think people often think that about sort of the older years because it's like you can have a project based situation where even the students know more than you about a certain thing and you can learn and navigate and, and plan something in that way.

But some of the younger years, like I say, you're learning together but in a different type of way, you're sort of gathering that bit of information.

And like I say, that experience, no matter how long you've been doing it, you've never come across all the scenarios, all the questions, all the situations.

And so I think always feeling like you're on that learning journey together, whether it's related to the pupils directly or like you say, within that community, I think that then feels like you one, you've never reached the summit, which is always a good thing because that's the way you kind of develop as you go through.

But also knowing that, you know, today is a bad day, tomorrow is going to be a different day because I'm now better, in a better position to be able to move forward.

Exactly, exactly.

And really like that's the story of education, right?

That's the story of being an educator.

And so it's, you know, just applying that to another area because that's what it is when we're in front of, you know, 20 or 30 kids every day who are looking to learn from us.

Right.

Because we don't have all the answers every time.

Exactly.

First one to go, I don't have all the answers.

Let's start there and then we can work back.

Right.

So for people who haven't been to the website, haven't seen what's available, can you sort of give us sort of a, just a quick snippet of kind of what they see when they arrive?

Wait list?

Do they go straight in?

What resources will they see immediately?

Just sort of a little bit of an overview you of that.

Yeah, exactly.

So to join our membership right now we're currently on a wait list, but I do think that we'll open back up soon.

So when you get to our website, you'll have the opportunity to join the wait list.

And once you join the actual membership, when you get in, you're going to find immediate access to resources, immediate access to the community, to our past training, some of the trainings that we've done recently and our upcoming ones.

And you'll also see extended content from our social media for.

So for those who follow our social media, we put out lots and lots of free content for teachers and parents and you're going to see even more of that in our community space or membership community.

Now, that being said, like I said, we're on a wait list.

So in the meantime, you can still access resources.

We make them free.

We make so many of our resources free because I want everyone to do this work.

So the best way to do that is through our Instagram at Little Justice Leaders and then also by getting on our email list because we give out tons of free content there as well.

So if you're excited to get started, do not be deterred by the wait list.

You can definitely start getting resources today.

I love it.

And how, how does it work in terms of you've got a team of people doing all of this.

How do you sort of enjoy that kind of working within a team in terms of people that are developing the content, the people that are developing the, the program, the people that are kind of just like say, within the social media, all that sort of stuff?

How is that for you as someone who's always passionate about the subject matter to begin with and then how that kind of works through as a, as a business offensively?

Yeah, no, it's so much fun actually.

I love working with all of our team members.

We're, you know, a small team.

We're mostly part time but very passionate folks.

And so the way it works, usually when we are going to create content around a specific topic, we will find what we call our content leaders.

Now these are going to be folks who have experience with that topic.

Right?

They are known for it.

They're, they're an activist or an educator who's talking about that topic.

And they also have lived experience.

So what that means, for example, let's say we're making content on disabilities.

That means we're talking about an activist who's speaking up about disabilities and also has a disability themselves.

Right?

So they have, you know, a lot of personal and professional experience.

We find multiple folks like that because we know that on any given topic, every single person's going to have different opinions.

So we don't want just one perspective.

We bring in multiple perspectives.

Those folks will let us know kind of through, through a process we have, what do we need to teach?

Right?

What are the most important things to know about this topic?

What are the misconceptions?

What should parents keep in mind, that kind of thing and then our team will take that and make that age appropriate for kids.

Right?

So our team of educators are brilliant at taking complex things and making them, you know, kid friendly.

And so that's what we'll do.

And that's kind of the process.

And then our, our content team will take that and turn it into our free resources that we put out to social media and to our email list.

So it's kind of, kind of an entire process that starts with of course, like the source of the information, the people who really know what they're talking about, and then us kind of turning that content into kind of different, different resources for whether that's for kids or, you know, creating our resources for adults.

So it's very collaborative, back and forth, conversational, which makes it really, really fun.

And this is why I love the podcast so much, because the whole point of it is to be able to sort of share these stories and, and this sort of organization.

Because of course, back in the day, as it were, it's like you go to school, there is a teacher who's been doing whatever they've been doing for however long, using their experience and a curriculum that may or may not have been as fleshed out as it might have been, depending on when that was sort of pre national curriculum, sort of here in, in the UK anyway.

And so the world's changing and there are so many brilliant people out, passionate about what they do, who can put things together that can support everybody.

And the more of these things that people hear about, and they go, oh, that's what I needed, but didn't know where to get it.

You know, I think that collaboration, like I say, within your team, but also within the education world and, and people that are kind of stakeholders in, in children's lives generally, you kind of feel like you've always got that support, whenever you need it, from people who really know what they're doing.

And I think that suddenly makes learning and education and bringing children up exciting because you kind of feel like they've got the best of everything because they surrounded by people that really, really are passionate about their lives and what they can do and actually be supportive and look after them in a, in a positive way.

Yeah, absolutely.

And that's entirely our goal, right, because we know families are busy, right.

Educators are busy.

There is so much to do.

Our goal is to make your life so much easier.

Right?

We want you to, you know, take this lesson and go in your class and you can trust that we've done everything we can to make sure it came from, you know, credible sources that are telling, you know, multiple perspectives.

Obviously, we make mistakes sometimes, and we're happy for to take feedback anytime that is.

But, you know, you can trust that we've done.

Done everything we can to collaborate with the right folks to make sure that the content you're getting is very high quality and based on, you know, the, you know, coming from the source and people who really know what they're talking about.

Because, you know, like, you might care a lot about disability justice and LGBTQ justice and racial justice, but again, finding the time to, like, find the folks, get the information, break it down, and we really just want to make it easier for.

For people to come in and get what they need and then be able to, you know, add this as, you know, a toolkit.

And then the other thing we do also, hopefully to make your lives easier is all of this is aligned to academic standards.

Right?

So.

So while you're doing our lessons, you're also going to be teaching literacy.

You're going to be teaching of reading comprehension and critical thinking, all of these skills that you're already bringing to the classroom.

Love it.

Absolutely love it.

I was just thinking about how things were so different in the day.

I'm a musician, and when I was in college, I used to have to go and get the record or get the CD or then go to the library and then take a copy of the music, and then you'd have to go somewhere to get the whole thing.

I was at a concert over the weekend, and we had these awful parts that have been created by somebody that it wasn't like, the normal set of parts for this particular piece.

And literally within like, half a minute, I was able to go online, find the original part, download it, use it, add it to what I had already.

And I was like, that just wasn't possible not that long ago.

And so it's just amazing how the world has changed for our benefit and just, like, say, knowing how to navigate all those things in whichever part of life that is, it's just.

It just blows my mind all the the time.

Exactly.

It really is.

I mean, it's a different world and usually for the better.

I was laughing last week because in our city, the school system, somehow the Internet went down and they closed school for the day.

And it just made me laugh because I was like, well, I went through that same school system, and we did not have Internet, and we did just fine.

But it really is, like, everything that they do is now, like, connected, obviously online and.

But it.

It just Made me laug to think, wow, like, you know, when I was in school, we didn't even have Internet.

And now that's grounds for closing the school for the day.

So it used to be food, food, water and air.

And now you always have stuff on the Internet at the side as well.

I was like, was it snowing?

Was it bad weather?

No, the Internet was down.

I love it.

I love it.

Yeah, it's like pre Internet, was there a world.

I love it when the kids go like that.

It's amazing, right?

Yeah.

They really don't understand different, different, different times.

Bless.

So in terms of being an educator, is there a teacher that you remember or an education experience that you remember that had an impact?

And this, this can always be positive or negative, but I'm always curious as to how that sort of influence or that understanding maybe sort of helped you shape the way you wanted to be an educator or certainly sort of bringing it into what you're doing now.

Yeah, there was, when I was in, in high school, I had a science teacher, a biology teacher, who really, I felt like Jess kind of saw me as a human in a way that I didn't know that most teachers did at the time.

So I worked really hard in that class and, you know, worked on a science fair project.

It was very hands on.

He was really supportive of that.

But I will never forget, at the end of the semester, he pulled me aside and he said, like, I just want to let you know your grade for this class is, is a B or whatever it came out to be.

But I wanted to ask you what you think you deserve because I know you worked really hard.

And I will never forget that because he let me choose my grade even though I had, you know, he told me what I earned, and then he asked me what I thought I deserved, and then he gave me what I said I thought I deserved.

And I.

It was the first time, I think, that I had an educator truly, like, trust my judgment in that, like, deep of a way or what felt to me at the time a very deep way to let me say no, like, this is what I think, and then to stand by what I said I thought.

And yeah, it just was a sense of agency and control over my own educational experience that I had never experienced before.

And recognizing how much respect and trust he had in me to let me make that decision just really changed the way I thought about my education and the confidence I had in myself.

So I think that for me was.

Was very profound.

And I want to, you know, give that sense of agency and control to my students as well.

I love that.

And it's the heart of that is, I think the thing I've learned the Most over the 400 odd episodes we've released now as part of the podcast is that, yeah, that, that being seen, that being understood, that trust, that relationship.

And each of the conversations are slightly different, but I think at the heart of it, that's, that's the key is the being seen and understanding how that is.

And it's so powerful.

And it's got nothing to do with learning in, in the heart of it.

It's about that human connection.

It's about that I see you, you see me.

You know, we're obviously conversing on a, maybe a teacher, pupil level, but it's an, it's an amazing thing.

And I think if I could bottle that and give it to everybody, I just think that everyone should have someone in their life that's been able to do that.

And I know it's not always a teacher.

Sometimes it might be someone around your community, but that.

Such an incredible thing to be able to do.

And I love it when that sort of ripple effect carries on into like, say, into your work and everyone else's work as they go through.

It's amazing.

Yeah.

Yeah, it really is.

What's the best piece of advice you've ever been given?

Or indeed is there some advice you might give your younger self now, sort of looking back as a.

Is a more mature Shelby?

So we're saying, yeah, I think the, the advice I'd want to give myself, and that I've heard before too, is just to take, take action.

I think sometimes we, we, we sit back and dream a lot.

And obviously there are often a million barriers in the way to that.

But for me, like, you know, when I had the idea for Little Justice Leaders, I just started posting on Instagram and I said, hey, like, here's some resources to use with kids.

And, and that was how the whole thing got started.

It was just because I decided to take it to Instagram and post it.

And I think I could have sat with that idea for a really long time and done nothing, because I could have.

I had a million excuses, right?

I'm in school, I'm in grad school.

I don't know how to run a business.

I don't know where to start.

I don't know what people need.

But it was just let me post and start having a conversation.

And I started, ask teachers and parents, what do you need?

What would be helpful?

And I'm so glad I did that.

And I wish, you know, when I was younger, I wish I would have just been more, you know, ready to just jump and take action and see where things lead me.

And I would always encourage especially young people, but really all people to do that as well.

Yeah, it's so important, isn't it?

Because you would have got the most beautiful box and the best resources to send out as you were ready to launch your thing, and then you suddenly realized you were going to go digital anyway, so you wasted all that time before you even got any resources to begin with.

So, yeah, do what you can do now and then change and morph and pivot and expand as you can.

And really great advice.

Is there a resource you'd like to share?

And this can be anything, personal or professional, whether it's a podcast, film, book, song, anything that you like.

But, yeah, something that's had an impact or might be nice for people to hear.

Yeah, so a book that really had an impact for me.

Gosh, I.

I read a lot, so there are a lot of books.

But one that really impacted me at a, I think, critical point in my journey was called the Art of Non Conformity by Chris Gillebo.

And I read that when I was in my early 20s, and it just really made think differently.

Right.

I didn't necessarily agree with everything he was saying, but he was sharing his own journey of traveling and starting a business and just what the title sounds like, the Art of Non Conformity.

And thinking about, you know, what are you doing?

Because you've been told that's what you should be doing versus what are you doing, because you really want to be doing that.

And I think that message is something I always want to send to my students as well, of, you know, explore life in the way that makes sense for you, not in the way that you think you should.

And so I think, yeah, reading that in my early 20s really kind of shifted how I just thought about my career and my life and how I was living.

And yeah, I would.

I would recommend it especially for folks who maybe are thinking about, like, different.

Different ways of approaching the world and wanting some.

Some validation and support in that journey.

I think it's so important, and it's not something like, say that you immediately think.

I think especially students a lot of the time, because you sort of have that sense, I should know everything.

I'm meant to be a certain way.

I'm not going to put my hand up in class and ask anything or I'm not going to Put my head above the parapet.

And as soon as you realize one, you should.

Because if you've got something to say, it's really important for you and all the people in your class or your community or wherever you happen to be.

But also you start to realize that it's not about conforming and actually being someone in the herd of the class or the school or the.

Or the community.

It's actually about you being your best self, which brings that to the world, which is what the world needs in, in essence, isn't it?

But it's so kind of the other side of what so many people either brought up to or actually believe from the get go.

Exactly.

So the acronym FIRE is obviously really important to us here at Education on Fire.

And by that we mean feedback, inspiration, resilience and empowerment.

What is it that strikes you when you hear that?

Whether it's each word or one word in particular, but yeah, something that immediately sort of hits you.

Yeah.

So for me, kind of these words in general embody a mentor of mine who was always, you know, so supportive of me.

Dr.

Patty Cunningham.

She was my biggest cheerleader.

I met her while I was in college.

She wasn't even my professor.

She was just a professor.

And I happened to get connected to her and she was so supportive.

So also honest.

Right.

When I think of feedback, she was honest.

She was direct.

Direct.

And she was kind.

She, you know, kind of painted a vision of, of the work that I was doing and how she saw that going and was just always there to like, empower and support me in every, every part of that journey.

She wrote my letters of recommendation for grad school.

She was actually the person who pushed me to go to grad school.

She always used to say, like, we need more female PhDs.

Like, we need more female PhDs.

So really, really, really pushed me into that work.

Work, Wrote the letters of recommendation, stood by me through all of that.

Sadly, she passed while I was in school.

But I just, you know, when I think of, of mentorship and these words in particular of, you know, feedback, inspiration, resilience and empowerment, I always think of her and who she embodied as an educator and as, you know, a mentor and advisor and friend really.

And so I hope that I can bring that into, to my education work as well, to honor her legacy.

Legacy.

I think having someone like that in your life, that sort of embodies everything that you kind of almost want to achieve and think you could strive for.

But I think certainly in my, in my situation, it was always that.

Can you really Should I like you say, but someone to say, of course you should.

And not only should you, for you, you should do it for the greater good maybe.

Or yeah, like you say to sort of really help and, and you can't ever know where that's going to go.

And I mean, and I'm sure when you were sort of entering that initial sort sort of grad school kind of idea, you weren't thinking about where you were going to be today as opposed to back then.

So just understanding that the path isn't necessarily even where you think it's going to begin with is such an important factor.

Exactly.

Yeah, definitely.

So thank you so much for sharing all of this.

It's brilliant.

I love, I love it when, I love it when you sort of hear the passion and the understanding of people that are involved in these things.

That's why I love talking so much, I think because you can see the websites and you can see the memberships and you can wow it what's being offered.

But there's something about the human element that human contact and hearing people talk about it, which is, which is such an important thing and I think that's what people connect with as they go through.

So thank you so much for that and for, for sharing all those things.

Where's the place that everyone needs to go to find out more?

You mentioned Instagram but also the website as well.

And we'll have links to these in the show notes too.

But just so people have heard it.

Yeah.

So if you go to one place today, go to go online to LJL Education Ed on Fire.

So LJL Education Edonfire.

That's going to take you to our.

One of our free resources which is how to talk to kids about current events.

It's a framework for talking to kids that's also going to get you onto our email list and that's where you're going to get the best resources, everything free that we have to offer.

Now if you're a social media person for sure check out Instagram.

We're on pretty much every social media ittlejusticeleaders and our website's little justiceleaders.com as well.

But for sure I'm going to say our email list like if you want free resources, if you're like, okay, I want to get started with this work, that's the place to be.

Amazing.

Thank you so much indeed.

Keep up the great work.

I'm excited to see where it goes.

We should chat again in the future because like I say, absolutely so many things, but I could just tell that, you know, there's a whole world out there which probably even you haven't started to conceive yet, which you'll be able to help people with as well.

So.

Yeah.

Thank you so much.

Yes.

Thank you, Mark.

Amazing.

Amazing.

Speak to you again very soon.

Yes.

Education is not the filling of a pail, but the lighting of a fire.