Shownotes
- Your “Church” is people... and that includes you!
- Why God may want to keep you right where you’re at.
- 7 legitimate reasons why it could be time to leave.
- Key rhythms of life that equal “gathering together” as the Church.
Each week the Big 3 will give you immediate action steps to get you started.
Download today’s BIG 3 right now. Read and think over them again later. You might even want to share them with others…
Thanks for Listening!
Thanks so much for joining us again this week. Have some feedback you’d like to share? Join us on Facebook and take part in the discussion! If you enjoyed this episode, please share it using the social media buttons you see at the top of this page or right below. Also, please subscribe and leave an honest review for The Everyday Disciple Podcast on Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen. Ratings and reviews are extremely helpful and greatly appreciated! They do matter in the rankings of the show, and we read each and every one of them. Links and Resources Mentioned in This Episode: Coaching with Caesar and Tina in discipleship and missional living. Missio Publishing - Resources for a life on mission
Transcripts
If you're thinking about leaving your church, ask yourself why you originally started engaging with this particular church body.
Caesar Kalinowski:What did you like about it?
Caesar Kalinowski:What drew you to it?
Caesar Kalinowski:And what's changed now?
Caesar Kalinowski:How might God want to use you to change things about it?
Caesar Kalinowski:Or what might God be wanting to teach you and your family by staying a part of this church?
Caesar Kalinowski:If the gospel is being proclaimed there, what and displayed and experienced within your church, you probably should stay and be a part of any changes that still need to happen.
Caesar Kalinowski:Healthy families are always growing and changing, and that's a good thing.
Caesar Kalinowski:God's family can be messy, but then again, so are you.
Heath Hollensbe:Welcome to the Everyday Disciple Podcast, where you'll learn how to live with greater intentionality and an integrated faith that naturally fits into every area of life.
Heath Hollensbe:In other words, discipleship as a lifestyle.
Heath Hollensbe:This is the stuff your parents, pastors, and seminary professors probably forgot to tell you.
Heath Hollensbe:And now, here's your host, Caesar Kalinowski.
Caesar Kalinowski:Do anything fun this last weekend?
Caesar Kalinowski:We did, um, so one of the coolest events that we do as a family is Seafair here in Seattle and uh.
Caesar Kalinowski:Everything's see something here.
Caesar Kalinowski:It's always something.
Caesar Kalinowski:Seat addle, Seat hawk, Seat wool.
Caesar Kalinowski:Seafair.
Caesar Kalinowski:Yeah.
Heath Hollensbe:Yeah, you're absolutely right.
Heath Hollensbe:What's cool with this is, um.
Heath Hollensbe:It's, uh, it's on Lake Washington and, uh, it's so beautiful up there, man.
Heath Hollensbe:Oh, it's incredible.
Heath Hollensbe:So you've got the floating bridges, but then you've got boats and kayaks and we sit in inner tubes and the blue angels are there and they do boat races.
Heath Hollensbe:And so you're just angels,
Caesar Kalinowski:those jets that are like all flying
Heath Hollensbe:formation squadron, and what's cool is that the way they do their show is they come over this tree line right on the water.
Heath Hollensbe:And so your first experience of them is you see them before you hear them and it's just, and everyone's in their kayaks and inner tubes and it's awesome.
Heath Hollensbe:The kids love it shut down the
Caesar Kalinowski:highway.
Caesar Kalinowski:Like I 5 when they're practicing or performing.
Caesar Kalinowski:Yep.
Caesar Kalinowski:It's crazy because I've actually been like, do, do, do, travel along and you're like, oh, what's this traffic jam in the middle of the afternoon on a Sunday or something?
Caesar Kalinowski:It's like, It's crazy.
Caesar Kalinowski:Oh my gosh, what was that?
Caesar Kalinowski:You know,
Heath Hollensbe:it's funny as I talked to a guy the other day who, uh, he's a private, he runs a private jet company here in town and was setting up a new client and said two years ago he was on the 44th story of a, of a sky rise in Seattle and he heard the jets.
Heath Hollensbe:He didn't know the blue angels were in town.
Heath Hollensbe:He heard this thunderous roar and he looked down and saw the top of the jets.
Heath Hollensbe:They were just flying.
Heath Hollensbe:He was so high.
Heath Hollensbe:Yeah.
Heath Hollensbe:And they were just going, they just tore through.
Heath Hollensbe:Yeah.
Heath Hollensbe:So awesome.
Heath Hollensbe:Yeah.
Heath Hollensbe:So we, the kids love it.
Heath Hollensbe:That was, that was kind of our weekend.
Heath Hollensbe:That's cool, man.
Heath Hollensbe:Thanks for inviting me and everything.
Heath Hollensbe:So speaking of blue angels, we're talking about leaving the church or staying in the church today, huh?
Caesar Kalinowski:That's, I don't know how that transitions.
Caesar Kalinowski:That's a weird one.
Caesar Kalinowski:Yeah, we are.
Caesar Kalinowski:Yeah.
Caesar Kalinowski:And, and again, this is, uh, another topic that came from one of our listeners.
Caesar Kalinowski:It's actually from Haley, who I know, and I know her husband Jordy and they're great.
Caesar Kalinowski:And we coach them.
Caesar Kalinowski:They're active.
Caesar Kalinowski:Yeah, they're super.
Caesar Kalinowski:They are the real deal.
Caesar Kalinowski:So
Heath Hollensbe:she said, why don't you do a show on this?
Heath Hollensbe:And we said, of course, because we love, I mean, we love doing the research and if there's stuff that matters to you, we want it to matter to us as well.
Heath Hollensbe:Well, now they're outed because they asked
Caesar Kalinowski:this question.
Caesar Kalinowski:So everybody at their church is going to assume they're packing their bags.
Caesar Kalinowski:They're on their way out.
Caesar Kalinowski:Sorry guys, but I've not heard anything about that.
Caesar Kalinowski:I'm sure it's just a innocent question.
Heath Hollensbe:Yeah So she was just saying like how do you determine as a family as a couple as an individual?
Heath Hollensbe:When it's time to stay or when it's time to leave when it's time to move on from your local
Caesar Kalinowski:church I think it's important, you know, we remind ourselves right the definition of church is people
Heath Hollensbe:Okay,
Caesar Kalinowski:always I know like we all say like I'm where you going to say I'm going to the church and we mean the building You right?
Caesar Kalinowski:Or everybody's over at the church or like the window at the church got broken.
Caesar Kalinowski:It's like, you know, the church is, and has always been people.
Caesar Kalinowski:And to even talk about, I think like, when's it time to leave your church or when's it time to look for a different church where we, we, we have to say, well, wait, when's it time to leave these people?
Caesar Kalinowski:Like there's a family identity that's really in play.
Caesar Kalinowski:And we talk about it a lot.
Caesar Kalinowski:These are our brothers and sisters.
Caesar Kalinowski:So two things.
Caesar Kalinowski:When you say, Hey, Thinking about leaving the church, like, substitute, don't think, don't think gathering, don't think the polity, the government of that, the building, the location, the nom, think, thinking about leaving these people, these brothers and sisters,
Heath Hollensbe:you know.
Caesar Kalinowski:That's a reframe.
Caesar Kalinowski:Yeah, and then also make sure you put yourself in there.
Caesar Kalinowski:So, very often people say, you know what I don't like about our church?
Caesar Kalinowski:And I'll say, no, what don't you like about yourself?
Caesar Kalinowski:Because we're the church, we are the church, and we're all capital C church.
Caesar Kalinowski:There's only one big family of God on the planet, but because we love ourselves and because we like preference and, you know, certain things a certain way, that's why we've got, I don't know, a thousand, 2000 plus denominations and then all the fractures of that and everything.
Caesar Kalinowski:But just remember the church is people, the church is your family.
Caesar Kalinowski:you're part of that family.
Caesar Kalinowski:So whatever you don't like about the church, you, you know, it's the old, like when you were a kid, you got one pink finger pointing away and four fingers pointing back at you.
Caesar Kalinowski:Right.
Caesar Kalinowski:Yeah.
Heath Hollensbe:So I know that you and I have both been in instances where we've actually had to wrestle with when to stay in our local church and maybe grow through our frustrations or when it's time to leave.
Heath Hollensbe:And I'm just curious, these are where you draw personally the line in the sand.
Caesar Kalinowski:Well, let me give you an overarching sort of diagnostic question.
Caesar Kalinowski:Okay.
Caesar Kalinowski:We'll get, we're going to get real specific today, but, but overarching is like, when you're trying to decide that it was like, what would a healthy family kind of tying it back to what I was just saying, what would a healthy family that has God as their daddy and Jesus as their brother, empowered by the same Holy Spirit that raised Jesus from the dead, What would they do given this situation?
Caesar Kalinowski:Because we don't usually leave because we love everything.
Caesar Kalinowski:It's all great.
Caesar Kalinowski:You know, sometimes we leave because we're moving, but we're talking here like, when's it time to leave?
Caesar Kalinowski:Because I think we're just making a change.
Caesar Kalinowski:And so ask yourself, what would a healthy family who has God as their daddy and Jesus as a brother do?
Caesar Kalinowski:How would we make decisions and how we interpret things?
Caesar Kalinowski:If you listen to last week's episode on anger.
Caesar Kalinowski:You realize that if there's anger involved, go back, listen to the episode, try to figure out and how to absorb that anger.
Caesar Kalinowski:What's going on there, right?
Caesar Kalinowski:The thing behind the thing.
Caesar Kalinowski:But um, this can be very, very tricky on like, when do you leave?
Caesar Kalinowski:Because like I said, you're not leaving a building or a program, though a lot of people just feel like that because that's all they've engaged in that.
Caesar Kalinowski:Sure.
Caesar Kalinowski:You're really leaving a family.
Caesar Kalinowski:You know, and if you've, if, if your church, your body that you've been a part of, you've been there like a long time, like you've, maybe you grew up there or you've been super involved in the past and either serving or leadership or your kids grew up there, whatever.
Caesar Kalinowski:It gets really tricky to like, well, why are you leaving?
Caesar Kalinowski:You know, and there's, there's a lot of relational baggage that comes with that and it's good that it does.
Caesar Kalinowski:It really, really is.
Caesar Kalinowski:If, if it was just goods and services, then I'm just going to tell you about this, this amazing invention that's out there called the internet.
Caesar Kalinowski:And you can get a billion great sermons and you can see every Christian band and concert and it's all there, right?
Caesar Kalinowski:So I'm glad that there's some baggage connected to leaving church with family, people, with brothers and sisters.
Caesar Kalinowski:Okay.
Caesar Kalinowski:No, by the way, if you leave a church, you may miss out on learning what God has for you.
Caesar Kalinowski:like whatever's bugging you or you may miss that I'm being a part of the change or solutions or growth that God has for his church, his family.
Caesar Kalinowski:So be slow to move on.
Caesar Kalinowski:Okay.
Caesar Kalinowski:Be slow to move on and kind of ask yourself like, what are the reasons you're thinking of leaving?
Caesar Kalinowski:Okay.
Caesar Kalinowski:It's fair to ask that.
Caesar Kalinowski:You probably know I'm top of head, top of mind, but there's probably other things.
Caesar Kalinowski:And, and then kind of in line with what I just said, what, what could you do to be the change you want to see?
Heath Hollensbe:Hmm.
Caesar Kalinowski:Now that takes maturity.
Caesar Kalinowski:You're right.
Caesar Kalinowski:Right?
Caesar Kalinowski:Like if you're selfish or you're immature, you won't do that.
Caesar Kalinowski:No, you're right.
Caesar Kalinowski:Right.
Caesar Kalinowski:You just won't.
Caesar Kalinowski:Okay.
Caesar Kalinowski:But I know we wanna get down to some brass tacks.
Caesar Kalinowski:So I, I got seven reasons plus one okay?
Caesar Kalinowski:That it may be legitimately time to leave your church, but I'm gonna give you all these.
Caesar Kalinowski:Um, but I'm going to give them to you kind of also with some diagnostic questions attached just because I don't want you to go, that, that's the one, you know, looking for an out.
Heath Hollensbe:Yeah.
Caesar Kalinowski:Yeah.
Caesar Kalinowski:Because remember it's our family.
Caesar Kalinowski:So if you came to me and said, listen, I'm thinking about disowning my mom, my dad, and never talked to my brothers and sisters again, it'd be like, Whoa, Whoa, Whoa, there better be some heavy, heavy.
Caesar Kalinowski:Yeah, exactly.
Caesar Kalinowski:Right.
Caesar Kalinowski:So anyway, um, so here's the first one.
Caesar Kalinowski:that might be a legitimate reason leave your church.
Caesar Kalinowski:There's clear abuse of power in the church leadership.
Caesar Kalinowski:Okay.
Caesar Kalinowski:And I'd say, and there's, and the leadership is distant.
Caesar Kalinowski:And they're not really present in the daily lives of the family, right?
Caesar Kalinowski:Yeah.
Caesar Kalinowski:Which, to me, is kind of abuse of power.
Caesar Kalinowski:In other words, I'm sitting in charge of everything, but you don't know me.
Caesar Kalinowski:Sure.
Caesar Kalinowski:You don't have access to your life.
Caesar Kalinowski:But in some cases there really is, and we've seen about it, we've all read a ton of it on that internet thing, uh, about church abuse by specific leaders or like the whole group, right?
Caesar Kalinowski:The whole polity, right?
Caesar Kalinowski:So I think if you've seen a clear abuse of power in church leadership, that may be a legitimate time to move on because chances are you, it's going to be very hard to change that.
Caesar Kalinowski:But you might, you might be able to be part of that change.
Caesar Kalinowski:You got to ask God that.
Caesar Kalinowski:All right.
Caesar Kalinowski:Number two.
Caesar Kalinowski:Okay.
Caesar Kalinowski:Next thing might be a legitimate time to go.
Caesar Kalinowski:If the church isn't doing anything for people outside the church's four walls, You know, so insular.
Caesar Kalinowski:Yeah, exactly.
Caesar Kalinowski:If it's increasingly inward and self focused.
Caesar Kalinowski:That's not a good thing.
Caesar Kalinowski:You know, if it's just more and more building expansions, here's the next fundraising thing for, we're throwing on a new wing, we're doing this, it's that, we're doing, you know, more programming and staff versus equipping and sending, and maybe you've been there a really long time and that's just the way it's going to be.
Caesar Kalinowski:And it's never really focused on like, you know, all this money, we could change our whole city.
Caesar Kalinowski:Yeah.
Caesar Kalinowski:We could end poverty.
Caesar Kalinowski:We could end like healthcare issues for our whole city.
Caesar Kalinowski:Legitimately.
Caesar Kalinowski:Never mind a national whatever.
Caesar Kalinowski:If the church just got on board, I remember one time.
Caesar Kalinowski:doing the math at a church I was a part of.
Caesar Kalinowski:And, um, I, and I won't get into too much detail, but, um, we had millions of dollars in tithing coming in.
Caesar Kalinowski:Okay.
Caesar Kalinowski:Sure.
Caesar Kalinowski:Millions.
Caesar Kalinowski:And I realized that only about 5%, four and a half or 5 percent of anybody in the whole thousands of people church gave.
Caesar Kalinowski:So that millions was coming in from a sliver of people.
Caesar Kalinowski:Yeah.
Caesar Kalinowski:And I thought if only 10 percent of the church tithe.
Caesar Kalinowski:So if we just got 5 percent more people got any kind of generosity or obedience going on.
Caesar Kalinowski:Sure.
Caesar Kalinowski:And I, and I looked at that, that additional X amount of millions it would be.
Caesar Kalinowski:And then I did a bunch of research on what homelessness cost in the tri city area we lived in.
Caesar Kalinowski:It was less than that to fix it.
Caesar Kalinowski:Oh, you're like, as a church.
Caesar Kalinowski:So in a couple of years, we could have fixed homelessness.
Caesar Kalinowski:And then every year after that, we'd had a ton of money to go like, Hey, let's get after healthcare next.
Caesar Kalinowski:Yeah.
Caesar Kalinowski:Like really go for it.
Caesar Kalinowski:Yeah.
Caesar Kalinowski:No.
Caesar Kalinowski:Well, we might need another youth wing, you know, we might need that big multicolored slide and wall window with, you know, anyway.
Caesar Kalinowski:So.
Caesar Kalinowski:Escalators down again.
Caesar Kalinowski:That could be a reason like your church is just not going to be a church in the city.
Caesar Kalinowski:It's only for us Yeah, that's the sin of Israel remember they got they just started living in the temple and that's we're here and nobody else and it's About us and yep.
Caesar Kalinowski:Yeah
Heath Hollensbe:Gosh.
Caesar Kalinowski:Okay.
Caesar Kalinowski:Another thing that might be, like, pretty good reason to leave is, um, if you don't agree with the vision or direction the church is heading, now, that can be a catch all, so caution there, okay?
Caesar Kalinowski:Like, well, I just don't believe in where we're going.
Caesar Kalinowski:Like, I would say, you know, if you listen to this show, you know what our heart is.
Caesar Kalinowski:Like, if discipleship's not a priority within your church, and it doesn't seem like that's gonna change anytime soon, um, That's, that's a vision worth maybe going, man, we really want to make disciples and we want to, you know, the preaching to be gospel fluent and all that.
Caesar Kalinowski:And we want to be taught how to make disciples and we want to be discipled and not in like a nine week course, but like, you know, the whole thing.
Caesar Kalinowski:We want our kids to see a church that models this versus something that's completely foreign to us.
Caesar Kalinowski:Absolutely.
Caesar Kalinowski:So if, if the vision for the church is heading in a different direction than discipleship, for sure.
Caesar Kalinowski:Yeah.
Caesar Kalinowski:or you just really don't agree with where it's going.
Caesar Kalinowski:Like if it's just like, you know, we're going bigger and bigger and bigger, like, but we got to know less and less and less about each other, you know, or whatever.
Caesar Kalinowski:That might be legitimate.
Caesar Kalinowski:You know, you might want to try to find a body that's into discipleship and being family together and all that.
Caesar Kalinowski:That's a good one.
Caesar Kalinowski:Another one, uh, might be legitimate is if, if you find it, you don't trust the church with your money.
Caesar Kalinowski:Jesus said where your money goes, so your heart goes, right?
Caesar Kalinowski:And he talked about it a lot.
Caesar Kalinowski:So, you know, ask yourself, are you consistently faithfully giving to the work and support of your local church?
Caesar Kalinowski:By the way, if you're not giving regularly.
Caesar Kalinowski:Just nevermind this one.
Caesar Kalinowski:Cause 5 percent it's national average.
Caesar Kalinowski:It's something like 4.
Caesar Kalinowski:3 now or something.
Caesar Kalinowski:Yeah.
Caesar Kalinowski:I'm not going to give, but I'm pissed off at where you're spending money.
Caesar Kalinowski:But like, Oh, I only tipped once in a while.
Caesar Kalinowski:I tip guy, a little pocket change makes it in the bucket, but like get some skin in the game, this whole tie thing that automatically gets pulled off my gross.
Caesar Kalinowski:Not after I paid the government.
Caesar Kalinowski:Cause I actually love the government more than I love God.
Caesar Kalinowski:Well, like what?
Caesar Kalinowski:You know?
Caesar Kalinowski:So if you're not giving, don't even this one, take it off the list.
Caesar Kalinowski:But if, if you're.
Caesar Kalinowski:Um, if you're faithfully giving to the work and support of your local church, but you've become more and more distrusting how the funds are being used or spent or misspent, let me ask you this then, maybe, maybe you are getting that way and you are faithful.
Caesar Kalinowski:Have you talked to your leaders about it?
Heath Hollensbe:Yeah, I think that's a big point because I know a lot of people that have bounced because it's like we're just upset about it You're like, well, did you voice in it?
Heath Hollensbe:No, no point.
Heath Hollensbe:No, that is
Caesar Kalinowski:self love.
Caesar Kalinowski:Yeah,
Heath Hollensbe:absolutely
Caesar Kalinowski:I I didn't want to be perceived as this was just easier slink out the back door and never come back Yeah, that's that's not good.
Caesar Kalinowski:That's that's me.
Caesar Kalinowski:So, um, so but it could be a legitimate reason if you just go whoa I don't See this ever and it kind of ties into that last one.
Caesar Kalinowski:Like we're not blessing anybody.
Caesar Kalinowski:It's all about us in a bigger building That's it's dormant most of the time and tons more staff, you know, you know, sure we need all those things But whoa to what degree?
Caesar Kalinowski:Okay.
Caesar Kalinowski:Another one might be legitimate thing is there's no place for you to use your skills or your gifts within the body
Heath Hollensbe:Hmm
Caesar Kalinowski:and that's a bit of a red herring because And what I mean by that, you know, red herring is like a thing you throw out and you're like, Oh, there's my reason, you know, whatever.
Caesar Kalinowski:And it's like, Oh, look there.
Caesar Kalinowski:Now really this is my thing.
Caesar Kalinowski:Sure.
Caesar Kalinowski:Because the truth is you can use your gifts.
Caesar Kalinowski:You know, I can remember when God first years and years and years ago, put it on my heart.
Caesar Kalinowski:Like.
Caesar Kalinowski:You're gonna be a teacher and you're gonna teach people.
Caesar Kalinowski:And I was like, I don't teach anybody.
Caesar Kalinowski:And I go, who should I teach?
Caesar Kalinowski:And like, and like I could've said, well, they're not gonna let me, I, you know, they're not letting me preach.
Caesar Kalinowski:You know, they don't let me lead men's ministry.
Caesar Kalinowski:I was a kid, you know, but God said, teach and lead, whoever I bring to you.
Caesar Kalinowski:Hmm.
Caesar Kalinowski:And so I was like, I don't have anybody.
Caesar Kalinowski:He goes, you got four or five buddies.
Caesar Kalinowski:You know, ask 'em if they wanna do a Bible study and you're gonna lead it.
Caesar Kalinowski:And I did.
Caesar Kalinowski:And they did.
Caesar Kalinowski:And it was like life changing.
Caesar Kalinowski:Wow.
Caesar Kalinowski:You know, I mean, for me, . Yeah, sure.
Caesar Kalinowski:Probably not for them.
Caesar Kalinowski:Maybe for some of them.
Caesar Kalinowski:I actually just ran into a guy a few years ago in Manhattan and he was like.
Caesar Kalinowski:You remember that Bible study we did a million years ago?
Caesar Kalinowski:And I was like, Oh yeah.
Caesar Kalinowski:He was one of the three or four guys.
Caesar Kalinowski:No way.
Caesar Kalinowski:He's his most profound Bible study I've ever done in my life.
Caesar Kalinowski:I was like, it had to have been God because it was not my teacher.
Caesar Kalinowski:It was not me.
Caesar Kalinowski:So I say it's a red herring because you say, well, there's no place for me to use my skills and gifts.
Caesar Kalinowski:Maybe not in the way you want.
Caesar Kalinowski:You know, people come to us, you know, when I was leading a church and like, you know, I think I have teaching gifts and I like to get in the preaching rotation.
Caesar Kalinowski:It's like, how about this?
Caesar Kalinowski:I'd like you to teach in Sunday school.
Caesar Kalinowski:Well, that's not really like, wait a minute, so you won't humble yourself to actually teach my kids, my own kids, your kids, his kids, you know, his kids, it's like, so be careful.
Caesar Kalinowski:And so here's another thing kind of parallel to that, like maybe.
Caesar Kalinowski:maybe God is actually clearly calling you elsewhere to serve and use your gifts at another church family.
Caesar Kalinowski:And it's pretty obvious.
Caesar Kalinowski:Like you feel it as a couple, you feel it as a family.
Caesar Kalinowski:It's not a matter that you can't use it here, but God has shown you a great need and he's showing you how he's going to fulfill that need somewhere else.
Caesar Kalinowski:That might be It could be legit.
Caesar Kalinowski:Yeah.
Caesar Kalinowski:But that's not just like, well, I don't like it around here more.
Caesar Kalinowski:Right.
Caesar Kalinowski:Or I'm not getting to serve in the way I get the recognition I want.
Caesar Kalinowski:Or how come that guy who sucks, you know, she's not, you know, but I could, you know, no, but if you're legitimately, like there's just.
Caesar Kalinowski:One or two people do everything and they don't equip and they don't let anybody else do anything or lead or grow or learn How to teach or whatever that it
Heath Hollensbe:might be
Caesar Kalinowski:time.
Caesar Kalinowski:Okay, start by looking for what you bring to the body, by the way Okay, you bring to your local church family rather than what you get from it That's a that's kind of an overall umbrella.
Caesar Kalinowski:Like what do what do you bring versus?
Caesar Kalinowski:What do I get?
Caesar Kalinowski:Everybody's like I'm not getting fed here.
Caesar Kalinowski:You know, we're not getting what we used to it's like what are you bringing into it?
Caesar Kalinowski:Yeah, what if who you feeding, you know, exactly and try not to fall into the trap of thinking that all of your needs and desires can and will be met in an hour or two each week on Sunday.
Caesar Kalinowski:That's just ridiculous.
Caesar Kalinowski:Like, what do you bring?
Caesar Kalinowski:So you're thinking about like, well, there's no place to use my gifts in this church.
Caesar Kalinowski:Do you mean the church service where you get the light shined on you?
Caesar Kalinowski:Like, what do you bring to the rest of the church family all week long?
Caesar Kalinowski:Like, what are you able to bring and receive all week long?
Caesar Kalinowski:Are you as engaged and living as a servant as you can be now?
Caesar Kalinowski:You know, serving others.
Caesar Kalinowski:Are there other areas of service and community life that you could still be engaged in and be a blessing to?
Caesar Kalinowski:Hmm.
Caesar Kalinowski:So there's some diagnostic work.
Caesar Kalinowski:Yeah, absolutely.
Caesar Kalinowski:Before you just go like, well, my gifts aren't being used here.
Caesar Kalinowski:Probably they could be.
Caesar Kalinowski:Yeah.
Caesar Kalinowski:Look for that the light shining on you and the microphones queued up.
Caesar Kalinowski:Yeah.
Caesar Kalinowski:You know.
Caesar Kalinowski:All right.
Caesar Kalinowski:Another one, uh, might be a legitimate reason to leave is you live too far away from the church building and church family members to really be and live like family.
Caesar Kalinowski:So then I, I kind of wonder like, how or why did you start going there in the first place?
Caesar Kalinowski:Maybe it's like, hey, we used to live there.
Caesar Kalinowski:We moved far away and we just haven't found a place locally.
Caesar Kalinowski:We haven't really looked.
Caesar Kalinowski:We haven't tried to be family.
Caesar Kalinowski:We haven't started a community.
Caesar Kalinowski:We haven't done anything.
Caesar Kalinowski:So we're still just kind of driving really far, but that precludes us really having family life at all.
Caesar Kalinowski:So then I'm like, why don't you just listen on the internet?
Caesar Kalinowski:You know, you sit in the seat, you feel somehow better.
Caesar Kalinowski:Like God's not giving you any more points.
Caesar Kalinowski:He loves you exactly the same.
Heath Hollensbe:Yeah.
Heath Hollensbe:We have some friends who do a
Caesar Kalinowski:sermon in row 28 in silence and never talked to anybody or listen on the internet at home in your pajamas in the morning, having coffee, God loves you the same.
Caesar Kalinowski:Yeah, just so you know.
Caesar Kalinowski:Yeah, exactly.
Caesar Kalinowski:You know,
Heath Hollensbe:we have some friends that are just moving and he's like, well, we're going to live, well, I'll be close to work, but we're about 45 minutes from the church that we really like.
Heath Hollensbe:Like, geez, man, you spend your whole day just getting there.
Heath Hollensbe:You're never going to see these people throughout the week.
Heath Hollensbe:So that's a consumeristic statement like hardcore.
Caesar Kalinowski:Yeah, exactly.
Caesar Kalinowski:They got all the goods and services.
Caesar Kalinowski:You ever been in an Ikea?
Caesar Kalinowski:The Ikea's nice, you know.
Caesar Kalinowski:Parking's a nightmare, but we'll get through it, yeah.
Heath Hollensbe:All right, so that's, uh, the church building, the distance, that's one for sure.
Caesar Kalinowski:Yeah.
Caesar Kalinowski:Okay, so here's another reason it might be time to go, is that you haven't been able to find true community at this church, and you've really tried.
Caesar Kalinowski:We talk to people all the time.
Caesar Kalinowski:I know you do, Tim and I do, all the time, they're like, listen, we have done everything, we've been in every small group, we've tried to get people over for meals, we've tried to be out serving, we've tried to, you know, increase our frequency of seeing people, um, you missional communities.
Caesar Kalinowski:And we've had little to no buy in.
Caesar Kalinowski:In fact, we've even had some pushback from leadership, and we've talked about that before,
Heath Hollensbe:you know.
Heath Hollensbe:Even as you just said that, I instantly went back to episode 207, Missional Living When Your Church Doesn't Support It, which,
Caesar Kalinowski:if you haven't listened to that one yet, it kind of ties into this episode pretty closely.
Caesar Kalinowski:Yeah, pretty highly.
Caesar Kalinowski:Kind of a good part one, part two.
Caesar Kalinowski:Yeah.
Caesar Kalinowski:207,
Heath Hollensbe:Missional Living When Your Church Doesn't Support It.
Caesar Kalinowski:Yeah, so if you've really tried and you've really given it to yourself and it's just like, it's really not even a thing.
Caesar Kalinowski:I mean, I, some churches don't even have small groups.
Caesar Kalinowski:And they say, yeah, we just got sick of doing it, you know, so we just won't be family, you know, like we'll just punch, we'll just punch Sunday, you know, monthly in the clock there.
Caesar Kalinowski:I
Heath Hollensbe:even knew a church that their small groups were so specific and limited that that didn't really give, it's like, well, uh, Tuesday night we're on the north of town, uh, we meet from 7 to 8 30, it's age 22 to 29 and you have to wear polos half the time.
Heath Hollensbe:You're like, oh boy, oh boy.
Caesar Kalinowski:Just like Jesus did, you know?
Caesar Kalinowski:Alright, so now here's why I said it's seven reasons it might be legitimately time to leave, plus one, okay?
Caesar Kalinowski:This is the number one reason that it may be time to leave your church, and that would be that the gospel's not being proclaimed, and it's not being increasingly experienced in all of life.
Caesar Kalinowski:Like, grace, grace, grace, everything.
Caesar Kalinowski:Not law, and then try harder, and manage your sin.
Caesar Kalinowski:and your behavioral patterns until Jesus gets back.
Caesar Kalinowski:Not a gospel that's primarily about our afterlife.
Caesar Kalinowski:A gospel is being proclaimed in experience that speaks into and transforms all of life.
Caesar Kalinowski:That's got to be preached.
Caesar Kalinowski:That's got to be experienced together.
Caesar Kalinowski:And I'll tell you, for me, like all the other ones, whatever their point value on a scale would be, they don't add up to a, to a point.
Caesar Kalinowski:10th or 100th of this.
Caesar Kalinowski:There could be all the rest of that.
Caesar Kalinowski:It could be close.
Caesar Kalinowski:I could, they could be like, man, you could teach, you can serve any way you want, all that stuff.
Caesar Kalinowski:And it could be, I love what they're doing with their money in it.
Caesar Kalinowski:Yet it's not a gospel's grace.
Caesar Kalinowski:Then you just go, wait a minute.
Caesar Kalinowski:Is it the true church?
Caesar Kalinowski:If the true gospel is not proclaimed?
Heath Hollensbe:Yeah,
Caesar Kalinowski:that's a scary thing to say.
Caesar Kalinowski:And I say that.
Caesar Kalinowski:carefully, I say that with a little bit of trembling here, brother, because I'm not, and I'm not the arbiter of that, but I will tell you this.
Caesar Kalinowski:I've sat in, unfortunately, too many church services and heard too many preaching and messages and all that that were just not the gospel.
Caesar Kalinowski:But people say, Oh, the gospel was preached.
Caesar Kalinowski:Why?
Caesar Kalinowski:Well, the Bible was open.
Caesar Kalinowski:No, that's the Bible was preached, but it wasn't even preached accurately.
Caesar Kalinowski:You know, the gospel, the good news of who God is and what he's done for us and what's true of our identity, authority, privilege, and how we get to live now in community all the time together.
Caesar Kalinowski:That that's big.
Caesar Kalinowski:Yeah, and I think that's gotta be present And if that's not there what you are leaving may not really be the church as much as it's Christendom, right?
Caesar Kalinowski:So that's weird.
Caesar Kalinowski:Yeah,
Heath Hollensbe:one thing that often comes to play with people's expectations Is this church that is kind of their personal worship or their preaching preferences not being met?
Heath Hollensbe:Maybe you could speak to that consumer side of things for a second just
Caesar Kalinowski:for a second.
Caesar Kalinowski:Yeah Well, this really starts to lean into whether or not we place our church attendance or connection identification with the local body into our consumerism bucket.
Caesar Kalinowski:You know, like you mentioned, my friend, like, yeah, we moved, but we found a church 45 minutes away.
Caesar Kalinowski:Well, that's just shopping, you know, the old what's in it for me question and shopping for the best deal.
Caesar Kalinowski:So, you know, consumeristic preferences are a pretty bad reason to leave a church.
Caesar Kalinowski:It's a bad reason to go to a church, I'll be honest with you, but it's a really bad reason to leave a church that you've been a part of for a while.
Caesar Kalinowski:And why did you join in the first place?
Heath Hollensbe:That's a good question.
Heath Hollensbe:Something to wrestle
Caesar Kalinowski:with.
Caesar Kalinowski:So be careful.
Caesar Kalinowski:Yeah, be careful with that.
Caesar Kalinowski:So
Heath Hollensbe:we're like, or like, uh, we knew people that would only show up at church depending on who's preaching that week.
Heath Hollensbe:If it's like the good, if it's the A list
Caesar Kalinowski:or we like, we like that band, that band will be up because we have multiple bands.
Caesar Kalinowski:We like the acoustic band.
Caesar Kalinowski:This guy's
Heath Hollensbe:really funny.
Caesar Kalinowski:We'll go with those weeks.
Caesar Kalinowski:Yeah, I know.
Caesar Kalinowski:It's like,
Heath Hollensbe:yeah, you know, I think one word of caution we should, we should put on this too, is that if you're, If you're a married couple that when you're deciding whether or not it's actually, you maybe you're feeling like it's time for us to leave this place.
Heath Hollensbe:I think it's something that you actually run through this list with your spouse on because I do think there needs to be unity, right?
Heath Hollensbe:When, like, if you're feeling something, your spouse is like, no, don't just look
Caesar Kalinowski:for peace.
Caesar Kalinowski:Like it didn't go well last time we talked about it.
Caesar Kalinowski:Seek unity.
Caesar Kalinowski:Like, what do we really think about these?
Caesar Kalinowski:Play this episode back, stop each one, listen to it and just say, okay, where are we at with that?
Caesar Kalinowski:Let's be honest.
Caesar Kalinowski:Yeah, right.
Caesar Kalinowski:Yeah.
Heath Hollensbe:Okay.
Heath Hollensbe:So the true church, which we believe is God's people, his sons and daughters are always going to gather.
Heath Hollensbe:There's always a future for the church.
Heath Hollensbe:They're always going to be hanging out, right?
Heath Hollensbe:Yes.
Heath Hollensbe:But it might look really different from what it did in the past.
Heath Hollensbe:Uh, like the church already does.
Heath Hollensbe:Yeah.
Heath Hollensbe:Things are moving.
Heath Hollensbe:It's Christian.
Heath Hollensbe:Now it doesn't look like Jesus is hanging out.
Heath Hollensbe:Yeah.
Heath Hollensbe:No, we're big buildings.
Heath Hollensbe:So, I guess the question would be like, what sort of habits do you believe are important to ensure a healthy rhythm of gathering for followers of Jesus that might not be found or might be separate from a local institutional
Caesar Kalinowski:church?
Caesar Kalinowski:Such a great question, man, because you're absolutely right.
Caesar Kalinowski:The church gathers.
Caesar Kalinowski:The church is a family.
Caesar Kalinowski:We hang out together, right?
Caesar Kalinowski:And I really do believe that the Bible teaches that the oikos or missional community, whatever you want to call it, is the primary organizing structure of the church.
Caesar Kalinowski:Hmm.
Caesar Kalinowski:We just don't see anything else in scripture.
Caesar Kalinowski:The oikos, that extended family of faith that was looping on other people and sharing their life and sharing their table and sharing their stuff.
Caesar Kalinowski:That's the organizing structure of the church.
Caesar Kalinowski:We don't see church buildings till like 300 years later.
Caesar Kalinowski:We still need that.
Caesar Kalinowski:Okay.
Caesar Kalinowski:And, and that's, we, we, we're never going to not need that.
Caesar Kalinowski:So are you a part of a family on mission or an oikos that is increasingly hanging out as God's family?
Caesar Kalinowski:You need that.
Caesar Kalinowski:Are you experiencing the transformation of the gospel in all of life as we gospel one another and remind ourselves of the truth and remind me of the thing my head knows, but my heart keeps forgetting?
Caesar Kalinowski:Sure.
Caesar Kalinowski:You know, are you growing spiritually and dying increasingly to self and fear and personal preference as you live in community with people that are different than you, right?
Caesar Kalinowski:Are you living more and more out of your true Trinitarian identity with others in the normal rhythms of everyday life?
Caesar Kalinowski:So your family and missionary servants.
Caesar Kalinowski:And you can see how it fits into every, like, like, do your kids feel like they're part of the church, part of the family, part of God's mission?
Caesar Kalinowski:So, here's the key rhythms that I see the early church enjoyed.
Caesar Kalinowski:Pretty simple.
Caesar Kalinowski:They enjoyed them, they employed them, and they continually invited people to join them in these.
Caesar Kalinowski:They had meals together.
Caesar Kalinowski:Everyday.
Caesar Kalinowski:All the time, right?
Caesar Kalinowski:And with your kids, okay?
Caesar Kalinowski:Yeah.
Caesar Kalinowski:They weren't segmented enough.
Caesar Kalinowski:Um, they served together.
Caesar Kalinowski:They saw a need and they thought, oh, here's an opportunity to live out of our identity and show the world what God's like.
Caesar Kalinowski:Hmm.
Caesar Kalinowski:With their kids too.
Caesar Kalinowski:Beautiful.
Caesar Kalinowski:Throwing that in there.
Caesar Kalinowski:Um, they learned God's Word together and prayed together for one another.
Caesar Kalinowski:Don't miss that.
Caesar Kalinowski:Keep doing that with people.
Caesar Kalinowski:Like, this is what you see in church.
Caesar Kalinowski:This is when it says, to not forsake the gathering, right, of the saints.
Caesar Kalinowski:This is what it's talking about.
Caesar Kalinowski:It's not talking about in a certain building, because there's 150, 200 in this, my town alone, right?
Caesar Kalinowski:Yeah.
Caesar Kalinowski:Um, and then the big remembering Jesus through the sacrament of communion together.
Caesar Kalinowski:Jesus says often as you hang out and have these meals together.
Caesar Kalinowski:Remember me, remember my life given for you, remember my blood, this new covenant where I keep both sides of the agreement now.
Caesar Kalinowski:Those are core things and we need each other for that.
Caesar Kalinowski:I can't have, you know, a meal alone is just food, right?
Caesar Kalinowski:You got to have somebody to serve and we need to be served.
Caesar Kalinowski:All these things are communal and it's the way God created us to be.
Caesar Kalinowski:So by the way, if you don't have this in your life right now or current church and you'd really love to, you know, to have that, I I'd love to help you.
Caesar Kalinowski:You develop those rhythms in your life and I just got to say that that's exactly what we do with our coaching and right now this time of the year we're opening up fall coaching spots and so I would love to be able to do that like if you would like to be coached and have regular, you know, times to video with us and like daily conversations over boxers, a little appity thing and all that and get a custom roadmap worked out and all that.
Caesar Kalinowski:I'd love to walk with you and, uh, and you can check out our coaching at everyday disciple.
Caesar Kalinowski:com forward slash coaching.
Heath Hollensbe:Now let's get to the big three, which is the big three points if you had to distill the showdown to nothing, which you'd walk away with with three points.
Heath Hollensbe:And you get it as a printable PDF by going to everydaydisciple.
Heath Hollensbe:com forward slash big three.
Heath Hollensbe:Caesar, what are the big three for this week?
Caesar Kalinowski:Big three, uh, okay, number one, the church is people.
Caesar Kalinowski:Don't miss it.
Caesar Kalinowski:Don't forget it.
Caesar Kalinowski:Right.
Caesar Kalinowski:Always has been.
Caesar Kalinowski:It's never been the building.
Caesar Kalinowski:So leaving your church in many ways is a little like opting out a part of your family and only immature or selfish family members, quote unquote, make that kind of decision quickly or without counsel and prayer.
Caesar Kalinowski:Yeah.
Caesar Kalinowski:Absolutely.
Caesar Kalinowski:Right.
Caesar Kalinowski:So I just want to frame that for you.
Caesar Kalinowski:You know, you're not just leaving a program.
Caesar Kalinowski:Yep.
Caesar Kalinowski:Second, ask yourself why you originally started engaging with this particular church body.
Caesar Kalinowski:What'd you like about it?
Caesar Kalinowski:What's changed now?
Caesar Kalinowski:How might God want to use you to change certain things about it?
Caesar Kalinowski:Like if you leave, you won't know or you won't get changed.
Caesar Kalinowski:Sure.
Caesar Kalinowski:What, what might God be wanting to teach you and your family by sticking and staying a part of this church?
Caesar Kalinowski:Right.
Caesar Kalinowski:I, I, there's things where I've stayed in churches that I wanted to leave and God humbled me and the.
Caesar Kalinowski:taught us, he taught my family, changed my parenting, changed my heart, my marriage, all that.
Caesar Kalinowski:And I could have said, well, I'm not digging this.
Caesar Kalinowski:I'm in God's like, I got something for you here.
Caesar Kalinowski:And I just want to underscore this.
Caesar Kalinowski:If the gospel is being proclaimed, displayed, and experienced within your church, You should probably stay right where you're at and be a part of any changes that still need to happen.
Caesar Kalinowski:Because healthy families always change and grow.
Caesar Kalinowski:That's a good thing.
Caesar Kalinowski:So, don't say, well, things change.
Caesar Kalinowski:If the gospel is being proclaimed and you're experiencing it more and more in your life, probably stay there.
Caesar Kalinowski:Yeah.
Caesar Kalinowski:Alright, number three.
Caesar Kalinowski:Okay, number three.
Caesar Kalinowski:Uh, discuss the seven reasons plus one that I just shared with you that may, be legitimately time to leave your church with your spouse or a close friend or your pastor.
Caesar Kalinowski:Like if you're thinking of leaving, please don't.
Caesar Kalinowski:Those are good ideas, but really take the time.
Caesar Kalinowski:This is a big decision.
Caesar Kalinowski:Has any consumerism creeped into your thoughts?
Caesar Kalinowski:Are you, maybe, are you feeling hurt?
Caesar Kalinowski:Or maybe you're experiencing greener grass syndrome kicking in just a little bit, you know, over there.
Caesar Kalinowski:They got a bigger or what?
Caesar Kalinowski:He's a funnier, you know, like you said, you know, after praying through all this, if there are specific and warranted reasons to move on, then do so quietly.
Caesar Kalinowski:Don't make a fuss.
Caesar Kalinowski:Don't bad rap anyone at your church, and when you find a new church family to be a part of, don't gossip or drag your past issues with you.
Caesar Kalinowski:Even if they're legit, it's over.
Caesar Kalinowski:Remember, this is still part of God's family, and it's the bride of Christ.
Caesar Kalinowski:Don't move on and then
Heath Hollensbe:sin by gosping.
Heath Hollensbe:Next week we're actually going to be talking about something that is really practical.
Heath Hollensbe:It's like, why is missional living so hard?
Heath Hollensbe:It's something like, we often are advocates for that lifestyle like we just talked about.
Caesar Kalinowski:Every other email I get, It's like, this is hard.
Caesar Kalinowski:That's why.
Caesar Kalinowski:Yeah, exactly.
Caesar Kalinowski:This is what God wants.
Caesar Kalinowski:Why is it so?
Caesar Kalinowski:Yeah.
Heath Hollensbe:Yeah.
Heath Hollensbe:So we'll hit that next week.
Heath Hollensbe:We hope you join us for that.
Heath Hollensbe:Thanks for joining us today.
Heath Hollensbe:For more information on this show and to get loads of free discipleship resources, visit everydaydisciple.
Heath Hollensbe:com.
Heath Hollensbe:And remember, you really can live with the spiritual freedom and relational peace that Jesus promised every day.
