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Honest Talk About Heartbreak, Dating and Relationships - Rob McPhillips EPISODE 15, 28th July 2020
How To Build Relationships That Last
00:00:00 02:21:51

How To Build Relationships That Last

How do you create a relationship that works for both sides?

A relationship that lasts because it makes both partners feel that they are better in the relationship than being single or with anyone else?

That's the question we addressed in this podcast.



Welcome to honest talk about heartbreak, dating and relationships, relationships, the podcast helping you navigate your path to happy ever after with your host, Rob McPhillips.


Okay, so the topic today is the built to last relationship, so they built last relationship for me is is a relationship where both parties in the relationship want to be in a relationship because they believe that it's going to make their life better than being alone or being with anyone else.


So. So the question is, how do we build that? So what we're going to do, we're going to go into breakout rooms and the question I'm just going to share. So the question is more like heated discussion in discussion groups, is the last relationship that you were in or the most significant relationship that you've been in, what happened to Britney care and what was what was missing? Feel comfortable with it is to as briefly as you can, right in the chat box.


What you think was the cause of your breakup or what was missing in your last relationship. But if you can not put anything that you personally identify anyone and what I want, I'll have a look at that and we'll have a look at here. But also, I'd like to kind of break down what the reasons were and sort of look at them in dynamics as in what can we do in the future.


So you just probably just want the reasons for the breakup, you wanting us to write down. Why did what I think was missing? Yes.


So so what caused the breakup? Was it like it could be incompatible, grown apart? It could be infidelity. It could be whatever the reasons are. And yet what or what was missing. OK, so we've got mismatched values, lack of honesty, lack of communication, maturity, lack of excitement, intimacy and humor, help poor communication. OK, so communication is a big. Excitement. I'm going to class personal foundations like emotional communication, compatibility or infidelity.


Okay, is there anyone who who wants to talk about what they talked about in their group? I will. So who's who is this ahead of us? That's going to to.


And I'm trying remember, I think there was two parts to the question I just on. One of the things is like lack of flexibility. So, you know, where these things should things should in between 60, 40, 50, 50, in some instances, things were going 80, 80, 20, that that's what that person expects or wants. And if they don't get what they want, they'll use a number of things like jealousy. And when things weren't going, how they expected and then met on Facebook, I knew will bother me.


I guess it's kind of like playing games, games, games. Yeah, I'm not saying all the time give the woman some credit, but I saw that that was a mutual mate, used to like our common interest and she accepted his friend request, kind of commented on it and she just went, yeah, stay that way. It's still on and off. But you've got to weaken the way we make. You know, I'm not going to get up to anything, it's just booze and because she didn't like it, even though, you know, we're official within each other, we still communicating because she didn't like it said, well, I you don't know either that either of this bloke is a friend.


OK, and that's somebody just coming out and saying, trying to control me and get like, say, my gate. And there is no mind games because I was very close to a young son as well, very close at times. He wanted to spend time with me rather than his mom. I'm not calling her, but it was a little boy to play football and Darren won't play football with you. So she knew she had to. Up to where I was close, or she could use him to get my son.


So was it like that in the beginning or was that how it began?


That's how it became. Yeah, what that scale. I think more that whether she thought six months down the line, a year down the line, it still wasn't going down the route that she expected down that timeline. Then things started to change. The world might live together after 18 months, but I still expect you to stay over. But at one point, her son was getting into the bed every night, book punching and kicking and no violently as two and three year old boys would do, stretching out in the bed.


Then he went through a stage of wetting the bed. So I really want to spend my evening.


So what happened before? So what led to that?


So that was kind of an I don't know, just things probably not going like such a way that you can still see three days, those three days.


I'm just going to meet everyone. Yeah. I say, so he said, what led to that Dejour maybe that maybe just eventually you start to find out what their expectations are, what they see as, how they see how a relationship should be, or they look at other relationships. And if somebody spends six nights a week with their partner, so we start to find out what their expectations are, then you've got to people are probably or even three because there's a child involved.


Still, our feelings towards each other. So I don't know what some of it was, bitterness, so sometimes you might be sat in watching TV and I'm going off to the pub with your mates, but. Yeah, and I'm stuck here with a child, and I think some of them comments used to come out, a couple of friends that but that wasn't your commitment. It's not your son. If you want to see your mate one night a week, you shouldn't be better or angry towards you because she chose to.


That's nothing against any the females she chose.


She wanted to be OK. So, yeah. So so became better because there was a lack of clarity. There was expectations. She became upset and maybe there was like, you know, things just weren't as you would want them to be. And so there was that became the behaviours. Yeah, I think she likes it over opinions and. About, you know, there's a few times where she's talking five, not four or five nights a week.


She gets two nights free without a soul and both of them nights she spent with me. Was there any of any other examples because we're going to try and look at a few different. Examples that we can use. So can I go? Yes, sure. OK, so in our group, we had, I think, two examples that will be written for one of them was we felt was perhaps a couple growing apart and there being no communication between them until one of them drops the bombshell on the other one.


And perhaps but the issue was lack of communication again, but maybe they grew apart and the other one goes around again, maybe perhaps compatibility one partner and not finding the other one is interesting as they want it to be. And again, there appear to be no communication until more or less the last minute, shall we say, and one partner is ready to walk out on the other one. In a nutshell, I mean, I think with the details, if you want, but that's a good summary, A.


Yeah, OK, I said yes.


So basically so again, this is when the connection is kind of gone, is kind of gone without the communication. Yeah. So, you know, in both cases there appears to be no communication until the last minute.


Yeah. OK, so so the commonality there is, is that as we say, there is the expectation there was a communication in terms of knowing what they were expecting. They became bitternesses, excited, because I think the question originally was, how can you build something wrong in your relationship and so on? And I think that can be a very difficult question to answer of what went wrong. Yeah, because when millions of things can go wrong and the longer time you spend together, the more possibilities of things going wrong.


But it wasn't.


But of the question wasn't what went wrong. It was what was missing. Yeah. So that's kind of different because a lot of things can go wrong. But you know kind of what's missing, though, don't you?


Because in the back of your mind, there's that feeling of I like this person, but it isn't quite right, you know.


Yeah. And the communication wasn't there for in both cases. OK, yeah.


Yeah. So so it was what went wrong and then what was missing, which is the next kind of step.


I suppose today's is really about well a lack of clarity, lack of communication.


And that's when things start to go wrong or you're on your way out of it once things have gone wrong. Is there anyone else?


I, I could go, um. Can you hear me? Yeah, yes, yes. So in a while, I'll talk broadly about the group. So we we had three people that spoke and and again, there was lack of communication, long distance relationship one person had and then growing apart, two actually had long distance relationships and there was no intimacy in communication. It was just day to day mundane. But the actual fulfillment within, you know, emotional fulfillment, within communication maybe wasn't there.


And then personally, my latest relationship broke down because I think I didn't view him in a realistic way. I had kind of this romantic idea of who I thought he was and that wasn't him at all. And it became clear over. But it took a long time for the penny to drop for me.


Yeah. Which I'm ashamed about. But that's the truth of it.


Hmm. OK, so, Tony, look what's common to all of them. It's kind of like. It's when you lose the connection and when you lose the connection, you become aware that you can't communicate and you can't bridge that chasm is that seems to be OK. It's also about the quality of communication, I think, with something as well.


So you can be talking to each other quite a lot. Obviously, it's about the quality. It's about making sure that you know what that person still wants, I suppose, as well.


I'd say the once as well, because if you want different things, you can communicate until the cows come home as well as you possibly can communicate. But if one person's really sound, one part, one in one direction and another is not in another direction, that's, you know, how much communicate, you can't bridge that gap.


So, yes, so it's both being committed and to communicate on the same level and also one in the same things in life might one in the same direction and wanting the same things to make sense in terms of when you say wanting the same things.


I know this is this is a really sort of like generalized coin. Both say like one person's on like a self development path wanting to be part or the people, for example. And the other is just not for the Dibala. They're interested in money or whatever. For example, if you don't if you're not the same direction in life, your values. Yeah. To follow sort of the values, if you can't, you can communicate as much as possible.


And if you can't bridge that gap because of the different paths, does that make sense?


I think I'd agree with that. And I think I'd add to that sort of knowing what your emotional needs are and knowing what their emotional needs are. And if you're aware that your needs aren't being met or their needs are being met, and sometimes it goes both ways, you can you can know that you're feeling very lonely in a relationship. But it's not just communication. It's about can you actually provide that support to the person that you're with? Sometimes you can't you can't give and you can't really you're not feeling you're receiving either.


And then that can become very sort of that can start to sort of mushroom and become lots of, you know, kind of get worse, as it were, as it goes on.


And then the person lying. Yes, I farmers communicate and talk and we went to counseling or anything like that about what we can be communicating, but it's not going to be.


Yeah, I made a comment a few moments ago to basically say. The purpose of what a lot of attention morning during the day, even while I'm at work and and then in the evening and I think it was. Touching on what Fiona was saying, it was their emotional needs was too much relying on me, it was like I'm gone.


I want you to spread your needs of family and friends a bit more. So if you need somebody to talk to you lonely at night, I'm not saying six nights a week. Well, you need some company or somebody to start to talk to. More family, more. Stop being so reliant on May 24 seven. And he said, because, you know, I've got work that relying on me, I've got family, I've got friends, and I sometimes go see my sister for an hour, a fortnight, and then it's like, oh, well, I'll be sitting there.


I'll be over an hour like. Talk to your sister. All the pressure was on me, you know, you should want to be with me all the time. OK, yes, it's kind of like the emotional found that like personal foundations of being able to meet your own economy or your own needs, but being able to like me less because you can supply more for yourself.


And I can I add something here? I think when when we say Cordwell, certainly when I say communication, I think it kind of touched onto that as well. It's not just communication for the sake of talking to each other, communication in the sense that is the quality of it in terms of trying to understand the other person and also being able to convey your own feelings and thoughts about the relationship. And it's not to say that if you do that, your relationship will last forever.


But what it does mean is that I think if your relationship is starting to head in a direction where it's going to break down, then either you can both see it and perhaps save it, or you can both come to the conclusion that actually the relationship is no longer right for the both of you and you have to go your own separate ways. And so I think if you have that communication about quality communication, as Pete quite rightly put it, then perhaps then you get that early warning signs that something is not right here and we either sorted or we decide that we shouldn't be together.


Can I make a comment as well, please? I can't help thinking, if I may, of the of the difference, in my opinion, of the way women and men conceptualize relationships and how we are programmed, I think, in a very different way. I think that women do have a romanticized view and they do have needs that are definitely centered around that. And the men want very different things and that their needs are met in a very different way and they do need more space.


I think I don't know why I can't help thinking that that may be a programming thing in the brain. There are certain differences, gender differences, definitely. That's what I'm feeling. I mean, just sorry.


No, sorry. I just I was just going to say that in my particular instance, what happened in the end was I was trying to talk about the relationship all the time. And he because I was searching for I knew something was going horribly wrong and I knew he knew it, too. But my pushing to talk about it annoyed the hell out of him and drove him further away. And he would just say to me, you know, we can't talk about this relationship, you know, and then it would just even get terribly worse.


So it was just it was just disaster. And it was absolutely that. I think the the way the male and the I'm obviously I have a very attached style. And he had a very aloof style. And I kind of thought the styles just didn't match much as I'm still in love with this man. So, you know, it's a tricky. Very tricky. Yeah.


You can have a situation where one partner is trying to communicate and tries to share, but the response that you get is so lukewarm or just total silence that you you are so discouraged that you you go into yourself, you decide, well, there's no point in sharing because there is also a suppose it could be a stereotype, but but let's use it anyway.


Men like to solve problems and their way of showing care is to solve our problems. So but sometimes a woman needs to talk about something and not she's not asking you to solve a problem. She just wants you to help her out like that. I know that. I just want to let off steam. Just listen. I don't want you to solve the problem, but at least react, you know. Yeah. Yeah, that's really bad. So and so and so.


And I'll be fine. But when you get Silens, it says, are you even interested in what I just said? Did you even hear? But on the other hand, when they have a problem, you hear it in the most minor detail.


It will last for hours. Oh, no, no, no, no, no. You be so good. Listen, and you're giving you know, you're turning it over from your thing or whatever. And you so supportive. Where is your support?


Well, our mothers, we have maternal instinct, Imbil Bill. So we are nurturing. We are more prone to listening and supporting. So I have what's emerging from here as well. It would be great to have in real life groups where men and women meet up just to learn about each other, because I think that if we don't do that as a society, it's going to get more and more difficult, especially with the latest crisis because of covid and virtual dating and all this, I do think there is a need to reaffirm who we are.


It doesn't mean that we are different species. It just means, I think that it's a different programming in the way we are. We have maternal instinct. A man has probably the hero instinct which needs to be affirmed and so many other facets to this story. That's my take on it. And how on earth can we make it work when it's so diverse and complex unless we learn about each other and hear the differences? I think I think it might it might be programmed programming, but it's also conditioning and it's the way we brought up in our families with these gender roles, I think.


And because not everybody completely conforms to, you know, that the way that you know. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I agree with that as a generalization. But I think the more we understand it, we can always kind of try and sort of come out of that conditioning slightly.


Yeah, but that's what I'm saying. We should meet in places in real life if people can hear like now and learn about each other. So we become less resistant to that.


There's compromise that you need to want to you have to be willing to to want to go to any party you want. There is compromise involved and you want to, you know, accommodate whatever, whatever, whatever the problem is, you want to help to solve the problem. You want to. Another point, actually, yeah. Both parties want to find resolve, you know, of both people wanting a solution. And some people are wanting to find solutions and other people, just like I don't want to hear it, you know, and that's just this is what is correct.


So I think yeah, I think I think the two fundamental to me of how you build a relationship is about knowing what to do and it is about the commitment to do. But I just to summarize, I think communication, like I said, is so key because for me, communication is the way that you get to the truth is the way that you get to the reality. Because the goal of the relationship isn't to make the relationship work is to say, can you be can we be ourselves?


And at work is to find out if you have that commitment, if you have that integrity, if you have all of those things.


What you said, Sondra's, it made me laugh because I so true. I find that in my relationships to slightly solve the problem, you know, like what you want to talk about.


And it's just really serious and it's like it is.


I don't know how the other men feel, but I find it really hard to just I can't I'm just going to say, listen, is there any way that they can do that?


Is that is certainly true. And I can I have been guilty of that in the early days in my relationship. And then I suddenly realized that she just wanted to tell me the same thing and that was fine. It only got very difficult when you hear this exactly the same thing about four times in a day. And the next day it goes on again and then the next day.


And then after about the first time I got on.


Oh, no, I can I can recite the whole thing back to her, but she'll say, yes, I'd like it.


And it gets difficult. It gets boring after all. You know, I think women, women, women think out loud and are processing house what you might process in your mind.


I think women process out loud so that just like thinking out loud, I think that's what we do.


You know, we're not necessarily wanting a solution. We're going like blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. You know, it's all it's all in there. We're getting it all out.


Whereas perhaps you might not do that, you know, not have the need to do that. But we are literally thinking out loud and processing and getting it out. And then it's it's kind of cathartic.


I think maybe.


I think the key is I think the key is, is that we may feel that we've listened, but it's the woman inside, the woman in this instance. The woman has to feel that you've understood and it matters. And so it validates my right and.


Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I don't know.


I think it's not just about wanting to connect with your emotions, really we're talking about, because really we want to know what we're feeling.


Yeah. Yeah. I think sometimes there's a focus on facts rather, you know, or the, you know, you're telling a story which is about things that happened to actually the the subtext is actually about emotions and it does someone pick up on that. And that's about empathy. And I think people do get frustrated when they have to spell out how they feel and maybe they want their partner to sort of intuit that sort of, you know, and you get into that whole I'm not a mind reader kind of category if if that if those lines of communication aren't out there.


So I guess this is nice, sweet spot in the middle where you don't have to fully explain yourself in and by itself a really cutting way. You hope that somebody kind of is going to understand that. If you went for a certain thing that day, you're probably feeling this or you're feeling that as a result.


I think for me that's where, you know, the five love languages. I think that was a great book in the sense that people give, given and receive love in a different way. But where I think it really fell short is I think it's a much bigger concept. I think we need to really understand someone and we need to understand the inherent gender differences, which I, I think are an outcome of patriarchy. And I think rather than just like who is active service or that, I think there's so much more.


And I think the governments talk about. Couples that have a good relationship and well together have a really detailed love map. Actually, what I'm going to do now is I'm going to move on to what does the research say about how you build a relationship that lasts, then we'll probably count for another discussion. And then I'm going to tell you some of my ideas that I've developed based on that. So. OK, so we've got that. OK, so listen, when most of this research comes from the comments, which I think there's lots of different relationship books and things, but they tend to do a part of it, whereas comments I think, have the best model of a relationship that works.


And so most relationships. Like final, the straw that breaks the camel's back is usually betrayal, and it's where someone so it means that the relationship has been breaking down for a while. Still, the research shows that on average, couples will wait six years before they actually go to counseling or try to fix a problem. It's kind of their underlying it's been there for a long time, so it's not usually a sudden thing. But what usually breaks it is when there's a betrayal.


It could be infidelity, but not necessarily. It could be where someone likes to share something with their family and they talk about them outside of the relationship. Or it could be where they're in a situation where they need them to be there for them. And they know like I'm at work or I've got this to do where they don't feel listened to.


So so people talk about, you know, most of the reasons people typically use for a breakup is that we grew apart, we're incompatible. It became abusive or some kind of betrayal. So. What a longer term, what makes relationships not work is what the governments called the four horsemen of the apocalypse, and that is criticism when someone's criticizing and it becomes it's not the fact that we have conflict, but it's how we deal with that conflict.


So if we when we deal with conflict and it becomes criticism, which is you always do this and it becomes generalized and it becomes an attack on a person and on the behavior. And so people don't like to hear that people find that difficult and so they become defensive. And so then what you've got is you've got one on the attack and you've got one who's putting up a wall and they're withdrawing.


And so that's where communication breaks down off the criticism. Another another one of the horsemen is contempts. Where over a period of time, people become bitter, people become unhappy and feel disappointed in the relationship, and so they become contemptuous of the person. And so that's where trust and respect break down. And the final one is stonewalling. And stonewalling is where particularly many 80 percent men will just shut down and just not not communicate. And it's but, you know, typically women will say that, you know, I talk to my partner, I try and talk about the relationship.


I just get nothing from I will just say those things again.


Could you froze up a criticism, contempt, criticism, contempt, defensiveness, where you denied it and not dealing with and stonewalling. And so stonewalling seems like someone doesn't care. It seems like they you know, they just cut out. You know, I say this and you just get nothing, but actually what they found in their research was that men react far more to conflict, so.


It seemed that someone was stonewalling and just didn't care. But actually, when it was typically a man and his stress levels were through the roof. It's what they call flooding. You can't cope with it. And so really what men do when when they can't cope is they become aggressive and it becomes violent or they show up.


And and so that can be an issue in where it becomes abusive is where people don't know how to deal with the emotions that they feel and then they lash out. And, you know, you've got one person who's just stonewalling, someone else who's coming in, coming in and pushing and provoking. And that can reach a point where it becomes an. So. Really, what why these why these calls a relationship to break down is there about they stop the communication because the key to a fundamental key to a relationship that works is the connection.


It doesn't you don't have to be compatible in the sense that you have to like the same thing. You don't have to have the same hobbies.


You obviously there's a certain level of compatibility like Sasha was talking about the values of you're not going to trust and respect someone who has completely different values that you see as I am. But you don't need to have the same hobbies. And that isn't necessarily a part of compatibility compatibility, because if you have the connection, you don't mind that they're are these other things.


But it's when that connection is lost and that connection is lost over time, over instances. But when we come to bridge that with communication. So how do you get that climate and structure of relationship that you can have that communication so the Gutman's that book, the seven principles that make marriages work and I talk about seven key principles, and that is really what we touched upon there in the sense of understanding each other, which is having richly detailed love maps and what they talk about, love maps, understanding really what the other person needs from you, what the other person, how they feel.


And this is. What we typically do is we think we know people and this can be a reason why involving friends and family in relationship can be problematic, because when we look at the people we know, we have an idea of them. And yet people are always changing and they're changing in, you know, in a relationship. That dynamic is that we change as the relationship changes. Our behavior changes depending on how we feel in that relationship and how safe, secure, how loved we feel.


So it's it's understanding all the time and having a curiosity and an interest. And so, Sandra, when you were talking about people listening to you, that's really about paying attention to understanding what's going on on your day, how you feel about it, and not what we can.


I think perhaps typically as men, but all of us think that we know someone because we've been with someone ten years and in that 10 years, they've kind of evolved and they're going to change how they react. And we change day to day. So it's having a curiosity and wanting to know what works for the person. The second principle is fondness and admiration, and what they talk about is that is the relationship salvageable? And the way that they find out is they say they ask about what happened, like how did you meet?


And I talk about the early days of the relationship and couples that have fondness and admiration. They say that's what distinguishes whether a relationship is salvageable.


So the next one is turning towards each other. They talk a lot, Gutman's talk a lot about bids.


So when someone starts a conversation and sometimes, like Errol said, it can't be the same conversation. And that's really not about necessarily communicating or it can be, you know, like, oh, it's a lovely day out there. And the other person. So what and what that's really about is they're initiating a bid. And so what you talked about does with your ex, that's a bid for attention in a negative sense, and so it's been sensitive to those bids.


And I think the governments have a ratio. I think it's five to one that we recognize and pick up on that bit and we understand it's not like the final thing that they're saying, but it's the intention to connect. So the next one is exciting influence from the partner. And this is typically and I think it comes from patriarchy, where typically women tend to feel the unheard and not listen. So unlike men will make decisions without them. And so it's it's taking in someone's someone else's point of view and allowing yourself to be influenced by it.


So number five is to identify the difference between solvable and perpetual problems, so the governments talk about there being solvable problems and some real problems are it's temporary.


It's the fact that you've. You know, one partner is worn out from looking after the children. One person is worn out from they've got a project on at work. So it's based around the temporary issue. That issue will change and so will go. And so it's a solvable issue was the perpetual problem is a problem where it's the problem of values. It's a problem of. How you how you relate to how you value things like money, sex, career, children, in-laws, and these are recurring problems that are always going to come about because you have a fundamentally different outlook.


You don't necessarily have to have the same because you're never going to find someone who has exactly the same values as you. There's always going to be a point where you're going to different split off. But what you have to be what you have to be able to have is the ability to communicate and live with the differences that you have. The number six is about turning gridlock into dialogue, so when you reach a stage where, you know, maybe argue and then you argue each side and you realize that we've we've got stalemate, we're not going to get anywhere.


And it's been able to to rise above the conflict and have the respect for each other and the trust that you can talk about it and work it out. So the last principle is that this is where I lose my faith, the last principle is shared, developing a shared sense of shared meaning. So it's a little bit spiritual in a sense that you have something bigger than the relationship is about having a vision and creating a life for your family and what your life is really about.


And I think that. That touches on surface point about you have to have someone who's compatible in a no sense of values.


So. OK, so that's basically. Their future in a nutshell of. How we how we build relationships that work. So we're going to go into the breakout room, so we have time for everyone to to to talk and share their views and we can talk in smaller groups. So this for people in a group. So if we go for 12 minutes, so each person has three minutes. It's like. So the question that we're going to go for are what do you think of the case?


What are the fundamental building blocks of a relationship that lasts? Our group made real headway because we had some good discussion going and we decided that. These seven points are really good ideas. I think that reading the needlessly I think reading the government will give us further explanation if there's something to cheer about, but we also decided that reflecting on our own behavior. To nurture emotional intelligence is really important self-knowledge, which I think we can gain from self reflection, is really important because then you know what you done and what your standpoint is on certain things and being reasonable.


You know, if somebody wants to go out for an hour, a week or a week, you know.


If they come to understand, you know, if they go out for the hour that hour between 10 and 11 and they come in drunk. Well, that's that's not quite the same thing, you know. So being reasonable on both sides.


Making compromises.


I think that's a really good point about being reasonable to a really good compromise and it's good to great words, just say be reasonable. But it works both ways. Yeah, yesterday I I said I'd like to go and have a KFC and a KFC and and, you know, I could go off on my own and have a KFC, but I have to do that every day.


Is concern for the other person, isn't it? Yes. Yeah. Anyway, so I'm actually going to put my husband first now and his family and I have to go back and I know I, I like.


Does anyone else want to discuss or put it in the chat as well.


We got we we touched on a few bits and pieces. So the fundamental building so mean. Again, we sort of talked around communication being one of the key points, as usual.


But we also talked about commitment from both parties to work at it. So that desire to keep things going in, that sometimes people are intolerant of the other person and they just give up rather than trying to look for solutions. Appreciate that there is a limit to everything and are not saying tolerance for. What we are saying is that there needs to be a commitment from both parties to make the relationship work rather than thinking, well, you know, you are not 100 percent what I want to see.


So that's it. Forget it. I'm just going to go for something else of stuff. And that kind of led us onto a common conversation around tolerance of the other person's journey in life, if you like, because everybody is work in progress in some way.


Everybody is developing, everybody's changing, and hopefully everybody's improving themselves in some way of discovering things about themselves. And it's the other person tolerant of the person's journey and may be supportive as well. So they can understand their weaknesses. And they're not just saying, well, you got their is your problem, you deal with it. And by the way, you're so irritating. Oh, my God. But it's more about saying, OK, is there anything I can do to help you or support you in that journey?


And again, all of these things are with the caveat of there is a limit to everything, of course, but so long as we accept that the two people are there or thereabouts in terms of the in terms of their compatibility, in terms of value systems, then I will say that what we are saying is the tolerance of the other person's weaknesses and desire to support them in their life journey is the kind of things that we should do. And the other thing that we kind of touched on a little bit was some fundamental as being an individual.


So if you are a overdriven person, for example, on someone else, then you are not kind of a self-made individual just yet. If you've got some fundamental issues that you cannot be on your own or, you know, other than that may become an overburdensome on the other person, you kind of need to be comfortable with who you are and what you are. So that I suppose you can you can be yourself, but you are not always because the way the conversation mambos, is it possible for someone potentially to be maybe so lacking confidence in themselves that they end up being under the influence of the other person, almost the other person telling them how they should be and what they should be like, and that it will not work because whether it's a male or a female, they need to be confident enough to say, yeah, OK, I'm not perfect, I'm still being made.


But then at the same time, I have enough confidence in myself to know that that is not a problem in myself. That's part of your problem, trying to projected onto me. So they need to be an individual to be able to self criticise, I suppose, and say, well, actually, no, I don't think that's a problem or I don't see it as a problem. You know, I think I'm OK there, but I appreciate that I have issues over here.


So that comes back to a bit of a maturity of character, I think. So we saw that as a thing. But I would also add to that, although we didn't discuss it personally, I will that to the trust and reliability. If you do not trust your partner to have your best interest at heart, if you do not trust your partner, just trust us overall that they are going to do the right thing and they're not reliable. So I think that can fundamentally break any relationship, really.


I don't think that they were good points, I think, and just that as well, I really like what you said, by the way, for is I think people need a creativity as well to Problem-Solving sort of. There's an issue in the relationship. You're either attracting each other or repelling each other. And it's being aware of that attraction or repulsion and knowing that if there's a repulsion there that you need to be creative to to make that part attract again.


Yeah. Yes, absolutely. And that's where we think the desire to try to make it work comes in. So if you are always saying, OK, you have a problem, so that means we have a problem because it's a relationship. And so therefore, your problem is my problem and I can help you. But me helping you doesn't mean that I'm going to solve it for you. You have to. It's your journey to life. You have to solve it.


But if I need to play a role to support you, then I need to play that role quite happily and quite willingly.


Yes, that's the point. Where are you trying to be creative to bring the repulsion back to a connection?


Yeah, yeah. But we're kind of turning that back onto the person and saying, but you need to be in charge of your own life journey, not your partner.


You know, you need to be saying this is we're independent enough to to make something.


And that's what I meant. Exactly. And thanks for that, because that's exactly the right word. So when I was saying you need to be a person, an independent person is what I needed to say. You need to be an independent enough person to know that. You need to either fix whatever it is. Either of you have a temper and you need to fix that. Fine. Um, what can the other person do to help you? Maybe they need to either whistle or something whenever you start losing your temper and that kind of helps.


You might say something being creative to solve the problem. Exactly.


Exactly, exactly. But it requires both partners working at it. I think that's what we were saying, is that it's to find the right person to do that together.


Yeah, exactly. And that requires that wanting to stick with it rather than. Well, it's your problem. You have a temper.


You can't solve the problem.


How about then that means you're not ready for a relationship because nobody's working properly. So Pontac percent made. And that person saying it is not 100 percent either and will never will be, I suspect. Are you close enough to help each other along their journeys, whatever that may be, that you support each other? And to do that, it comes back to what you were saying earlier and you have the right value systems, so you value what the person is trying to do, you understand it and you agree with it.


So you want to help them. Yeah, and there's a there's a difference between helping someone and fix the problem. Yes, I think what you hit on toward the end is whether it's somebody trying to better their career or somebody's got anger issues either to support or not to resolve their issues.


You know, this one this one of the. So I was going to say it was we did say there was a caveat to that, that there's a limitation to everything. Yeah. You know, if you take the anger issues, I mean, for example, if the guy is so angry that he puts the his girlfriend or his wife into a hospital every other day, you know, she's not going to support him and quite rightly so. I get in the end is to go and get some professional help just from it.


So there's a limit to everything. But yes.


Yeah, I also found, I think, where people get into problems in those kind of dynamics is that. It becomes when one person says, well, it's your fault, it's your fault, I got angry and which is quite common pattern in abuse. And it's like you say, people have to be able independent in the sense of knowing where the boundaries are, of knowing what's acceptable, what's not acceptable. Because I've always I think sometimes the conflict can be, you know, like saying I being unreasonable.


Maybe maybe it's me. Maybe it's me that's making them angry, which is what happens in the dynamics of a lot of abuse victims. I mean, I'm interested to hear a little bit more Sachar about what exactly you mean by in terms of being creative.


So if if the consents consensus, a repulsion and not a connection, and it doesn't it doesn't have to be like a logical you know, you can just sense when we feel connected to the person or not. And if you're not feeling that and you can feel that, is there repulsion? It's about at that point going, OK, we can sense this. How do we bring it back to a connection here with this particular problem? And you try it.


You might try one thing and it might not work. And just to stay creative on problem solving until you find a connection, does that make sense?


Yeah. To me, it's about like communication to whittle down to what it really is about what will work for the individual, like what the solution might work for.


One couple might not work for another couple. So that's where the creativity needs to come in is what will work for us here. How can we make this fix this problem?


Yeah, I communicate.


And until we find a solution that works for both people and for me, it's about communication is the way that you get to the truth. And once you get to the truth, you boil everything down to the to the bare principles and then it becomes the solution becomes obvious. And I think what has touched upon it is what the comments say, like the motto of a great relationship of a couple that have a great relationship is maybe when when when you have the world stops and it's about you have that sense of trust and respect and care for the other person that.


Okay, right. Let's just work out what the problem is. How do we how do we resolve it? One of oh, sorry, I was going to say one of the things that that we talked about in in in our group was that we don't always individually know our own patterns in relationship and how we behave. You know, it's I I think that it's quite common in relationship breakdown to apportion blame to the other person.


But it may well be that we are not cognizant of our own emotional responses and triggers and all of this.


And if we can't relay that to the other, you know, I think for me, what would make a wonderful relationship would be at the beginning if we could both sit down and say, I'm crazy in this way. And then he could say, I'm crazy in this way and do our crazies meat, you know. But if we could talk about our I mean, I'm using crazy, you know, our emotional foibles.


Yeah. I think it's a very valid point. I'm tempted to to say this because not everybody is mature. We mature at different stages. We might have emotionally immature parts. And I think it's a very valuable point to have made you laugh if that's how you pronounce your name.


Yes, I completely I I'm I'm very grateful for this insight. Hmm.


Yeah. I think the problem is. That we do demonize, you know, when we lost that connection within demonize the other person and we then that's where we get into the narrative of the narrative, is that it's because of this person. And so when people break up, most people, I don't think accurately really have a grasp of why they broke up and because because it's so much about the content of what happened. They did this. They did this, they did this.


And they will make this person out to be a demon. The other side is probably doing the same and so will their friends and family. It was them. It wasn't you. And so we don't learn. We don't learn the the the truth is very different. And so what we want to get is, is to get to the truth of what's happening and when we can do that. And that requires a lot of, you know, strong emotional foundation.


But when we can do that, we can say, OK, well, you know, I really I really you know, I really like you. I love you. But we just can't you know, our values are different or dynamic is different and it's just not going to work. And then we don't have to break up as I acrimoniously. So what I want to do now is just run free my ideas of like how do you build a relationship that lasts?


Based on that, so I'm just going to share the screen so I can run through this. Okay, so. So basically, relationships ultimately break down because one or both partners think that they are going to be better off single or with someone else. And so that's that's really the decision, the breaking point when someone feels that. And so. A relationship that lasts is going to be one way you get everything that you need from the relationship and some of the things that you think that you're going to want and this goes back to the expectations aren't really going to be things that you really need.


So it's really about and this is what I call a love tank, sort of taken from the five love languages, is that ultimately what we want to feel is we want to feel loved, we want to feel full of love. And so really for a relationship to be built to last has to be you don't necessarily have to call them soul mates, but you need to have that that state where you feel that you're going to be you're better off being with this person than you could be on your own or with someone else.


And that's the point where the relationship is. So fulfilling and satisfying that it's going to last. And so when I talk about building a built to last relationship, and so we've got four quadrants here, and the only relationship that's really built to last is this one. That's that's the only one that's going to make you feel that kind of love that we're looking for from a relationship. And so the two dimensions that determine that are knowing what to do and the commitment of being able to do that.


Because what we've got here, where we've got the commitment but not the knowledge how to do it, which is kind of like a fly bashing against the window, it just becomes frustrating. And if you have the knowledge of how to do it, but you don't have the commitment, then it's just really a casual, convenient relationship of convenience. So. And so, really, it's about it's about skills, how you get that relationship is about it's about knowing how to be aware of relationship dynamics, being aware of what you need in a relationship.


Being aware of or having the acceptance of yourself so that you have that strong emotional foundation. It's having the dating skills so that you guarantee you're able to go and find enough people so you don't jump in the first person. And then it's about being able to structure a relationship that works and then manage the climate so that the relationship thrives and stand the test of time. And so really, there's this four key elements that it's the choosing, the right partner.


There's what I call the relationship operating system, which is the framework of your ideas of how our relationships are going to work. It's having the emotional foundation to be able to to be confident, to be yourself, to stand up and say, this is this is what I want. This is right and this isn't right in the relationship. And then it's about the relationship skills to be able to have the communication, to be able to resolve conflict. So how do you build it?


And this is but the analogy for me is, is the three little piggies, you know, where one one built the house out of straw, one out of wood, and one took the time and went through Brickland School and built. You know, a house that's built to last, so in project management, there's a project management triangle which is like you can have it quick, you can have a quality and you can have it. I can remember the third one, but is like, sorry to last.


To last.


OK is the same thing and the same way with relationships. I think you can have them satisfying. You can have them sustainable or speedy. You can have two of the three. You can't have all three. And so what happens is that when people have a lack of personal foundations, they're anxious that they're never going to get in a relationship that lasts. And so they jump into trying to make a relationship last and then they meet someone. It's sort of they're attracted to or is lust or whatever.


And I really want this relationship to last. And so they jump in too quick. And so I think you have to take your time, so. The way that you have it built to last is you replace the speedy for simple and by simple, I mean, it's satisfying. It's it's it it's like is low friction. So. The free case, the free case to building a relationship built to last relationship is having the right relationship, the right partner and you being in the right state to be your best self.


So the right relationship is satisfying. That works for both, it's simple. So this. Clear expectations, clear understanding, knowing low friction, and it's sustainable, it's it's not going to it's not based on I'm putting in loads of effort and so it's going to feel great for six months from not working out for five or 10 years.


So then it's about the right time. So it's that you've done the work to know who you are, to know what you need to be able to ask for what you want and to be able to be your best self in that relationship. And so. That means that you're also going to be being your best self, means that you're going to mature, you're going to come to a.


Knowing what you need, but also knowing and with an intention to understand and support the other person so that they will get what they need, because both people have to be in that state of feeling like the relationship, this is really the relationship for me. And so it means compassion to to care about how the other person is feeling. So just like so a lot of relationships break because people were like, well, I was fine and I, you know, came out of the blue that the other person wasn't happy.


And they want the divorce.


So then the right the right partner is about you need to go to die effectively in order that you have enough people to kind of select from because you don't want to just jump in because someone has. Because you're attracted to someone, so you need to choose the partner well, and you choose based on. The qualities that they have, so, for example, if you look at choosing the right partner, it's like choosing a cake. And what happens is a lot of people go for that.


They pick for the icing on the cake. They pick someone who's six foot plus who's got a good job, someone who's really good looking, someone who's not like their ex or whatever reason that they choose them for.


But none of that bears any any relation to how they're going to be in five or 10 years, whereas the Kate is the qualities and the characteristics that they bring, are they committed to a relationship? Are they understanding of compassion, compassionate? Are they kind? All of those qualities are really the cake that make the relationship. And once you've chosen the partner and you're building a relationship, it's about that commitment, it's about not talking earlier about it in a past relationship, someone was looking outside of the relationship and people will do that when the connection goes.


But you have to have that commitment that this is the relationship. We're going to work on building this. So the really the fundamental problem is that we operate on narrative versus reality, and so we've got this stunning on happiness is that. What a book is really about is that we don't really know what's going to make us happy if you ask most people, it would be to me Miss missed the right to win the lottery and to have a house on the beach.


And yet lottery winners a year after they won the lottery are less happy than they were before they won the lottery, before they won it, because they don't know with humans. We're terrible at knowing what's going to make us happy.


You can see in this research off the research that all the things that we think are going to make us happy end up not so.


It's really about and so this is really the model of the free tasks of how you build a great relationship and. The enemy of of building a built last relationship is narrative and narrative is the explanation that we have of why someone does something. Of what? Of what it's going to make us happy. And so what happens when we just.


It's going to be we've got some background noise. And so an. Oh, so. True, when we build a relationship on narrative is always vulnerable and it's fragile and it's fragile because as soon as that's true, it's exposed, the whole basis of the relationship comes under threat. When we have false expectations, the big one for me is like the whole fairy tale model, when we expect that the relationship is going to work along the fairy tale model and it doesn't.


Then our explanation is that they want the one that we were incompatible and therefore they should go look outside of the relationship or and the relationship, because that's the only way that they're going to have their happily ever after.


It leads us to. Demonize the other person, and it leads us away from the solution, and I think the solution comes down to in communication. The solution is always there in truth. And so when Sasha was talking about creative solve the problem creatively, I think the real problem is that we don't really know what the problem is because the problem is based in our narratives. And so for me, if you can get to the truth of what the problem is, then you're able to.


Get to the fundamental dynamics and then you can address them, and that's the way that you can solve them creatively because you've got a clear understanding of what the problem really is.


So the free keys to break for a narrative are to challenge and really challenge everything, it's understanding that every problem is based in a narrative.


So if we can understand what the narrative is, we can address the problem.


So. And it's our assumptions, it's our assumptions about our personal assumptions about the relationship, assumptions about the situation that lead to a false narrative, and that's what makes a relationship fragile. So if we challenge everything, the second task of scale is to accept, help is to accept and. What makes us happy is an objective reality. But it's subjective. It's about the perspective that we have, so sometimes we can't, you know, governments talk about unresolvable problems the way that you resolve them.


Is all the way that you deal with unresolvable problems is by changing your perspective, and that's about understanding.


So and this goes back to a crew member who said this, but I think we hear a lot about the real person accepting the real person as they are and not the fantasy of what you wish they were or what you hoped they were and.


So it's to love what is and not what you wish it was and then Connect is about once you've accepted the reality, it's about connecting with the other person, connecting with the reality of the situation and choosing to love them. And and so connection is is the real key to a relationship. And the governments talk about the five to one ratio of positive to negative positive interactions to negative and a deep relationship is where.


You feel seen, understood and accepted, and that's that really goes back to Sandra was talking about not solving the problem, but about being there and just listening and understanding. And so, yes, so for me, that's the. That's how you build a beltless relationship, and that means that there's three basic areas, which is your personal emotional foundation, your relationship operating system, and then it's the skills is the skills of dating to that. You choose the right partner of knowing how to choose the right person and then about building the relationship after that.


So anyone who wants to meet themselves or any discussion or questions. I think that it's really helpful that the the the piece about kind of self-knowledge and recognizing maybe your own emotional immaturity, but it can be quite difficult to learn those lessons if you've had. It's kind of like a vicious cycle, isn't it? Because you if you're emotionally immature, you have potentially chaotic relationships. And the lessons in those chaotic relationships are more difficult to learn because it's also chaotic and you're emotionally immature.


You know, it's like.


Yeah, for me, it's about immaturity and it's about not accepting the truth. I think maturity is about accepting who you are. And I think, you know, when you look at anxiety and there's a crisis of anxiety in the world at the moment and a lot of that is about we want to portray or we want to be someone other than we are. And it's when we accept who we are that I think is maturity. I I would agree with that, and it's also it's about who you are and being brave enough to stand by that, even if it means the relationship isn't going to work.




And for me, it's one of the key one of the key things is what matters isn't the relationship, but it's your happiness. And you have to prioritize your happiness over the relationship because otherwise the relationship is going to be fragile. And it's not making a relationship with a specific person work, but it's holding out for the quality of the relationship. That's key. I and I also think it's that goes on to something that one of our group, I've gotten her name, but she she raised that about, you know, that whilst relationships are important, so is your individual sovereignty within that relationship.


And that goes for the other person also, because nobody wants to be you know, we talked a lot about fixing, but there's also, you know, sometimes you can be subsumed or consumed by a relationship and you can almost lose yourself.


And that is also an awful state of affairs. Yeah. You have to eat the basic building blocks of a relationship is an individual. And for me, relationship, organization, government, country, any of that, they're all constructs.


What fundamentally matters is individuals, because is only individuals that can feel happiness. We're all seeking happiness. We just.


It's we just don't we don't necessarily call it that. So what will happen is you get into a relationship and people delude themselves that trist themselves out of shape to make the relationship work. But ultimately, they're going to seek happiness and it's going to break the relationship because the relationship was built on a negative. So, yeah, I think that's such a key point. So I think in the in the West, we don't we don't like pain.


I mean, nobody likes pain, but we do everything that we can to distract ourselves from feeling painful.


And I think in order to accept ourselves, we have to accept the painful stuff of ourselves. And I think that's the hardest thing. And I think sometimes what we do unto others, and that's where the blame comes in, because we're trying to kind of exercise all our pain out there, but not necessarily processing it. Um, and I think in the West we're terrible at not not sitting without pain. And because when we sit with it, then we can eventually let it go.


But it's and sometimes we need professional help to help us let it go.


Um, I think the Eastern philosophy is, you know, that's which is meditation. That's that's more sitting and being. And I think if you can sit and be with yourself and you can hopefully be with someone else. Mhm.


Definitely. I yeah. I think that's, that's, I mean that's one of the fundamental keys is that I mean the key to conflict is not wanting to be wrong. And part of that is because our society is built on. Shaming people for being wrong, you know, you go to school and if you if you're like me, you're a naughty kid in school and it's a shame you into conforming. And I think that perhaps that's where the development in in the West has been.


It's about. Conformity and. Consumerism as well. But, yeah, we have to accept that we're not perfect, we have to accept our dark side and accept time to learn from it. Cerveris. So sorry to interrupt you there.


You're not going to say it at all what Mattie said, I think I think a lot of what causes people to be defensive is a feeling of shame. It's like, well, I can't admit I was I was wrong. I got the wrong end of the stick or, you know, I did something I can't own up to an account for want of a better expression on my shirt, you know, which, as you say, takes emotional maturity, but a lot of self awareness, which also can you know, people don't have.


Well, a lot of people don't have naturally and takes things like meditation, takes things out, therapy and other personal development to have self-awareness. So, yeah, this is this is my narrative. And this is the kind of problem that it's causing in the relationship. And, you know, I'm still OK. I'm still OK. And you're still OK. You've got your narrative.


So, yeah, I think the self awareness comes when we're willing to be wrong and and not wrong in a sense. I think we should basically fundamentally, you look at be strong, not wrong. And what I mean is that we we be ourselves up until ourselves how if we did this wrong, must be must be rubbish. I'm an honest person. I'm terrible and. We avoid the truth because we think we are bad. We think we are unlovable.


And that comes from. The way that our culture shapes and shames us. And I think we have to it takes a lot of bravery, but self awareness comes when you're willing to look at those aspects. Which is a shame that shuts shuts off communication. We talk about building blocks before, surely. Both ways, the building block is a. Not making a mistake more than once told you, I'm feeding off that from you, saying, you know, I'm making you wrong.


So you may have made a mistake once and hopefully you admit that again, you minimize it. People can be late and.


Oh, that is a relationship breaker. You can relate more than once, but hopefully you minimize it, but, you know, stop your mistakes or minimize them. But then again, also, if you flip thought, not keep up with behavior, you know, whether people make mistakes. If somebody cheat on you, potentially, it's once that's a great debate. But you know what? You pull with that once and you never put up with it again individual so that if somebody's done something once, not be not putting up with it again.


And just about everyone else's values and so far not having self-worth and stuff like that when it comes to stuff, things like that.


Yeah. So, you know, just not probably satisfied. That's my point, is to say just stop putting up with certain behaviors.


And if you are a certain level of self-worth, it's not about putting up with behavior, is about knowing that it's not right for any human being to be treated like a. If that makes sense, yeah, it does. I think they related some work in schools and they found that 65 percent of people thought what was abusive was normal. So I think what a lot of the problem is, is that we have such bad role models in relationships that.


If you've grown up in a household with that kind of relationship, you think that's normal. And so that can be that can be a big problem. I, I think just just to touch on what was said, I think it's not so much the problem of making mistakes. It's about the intention behind it. So I'm trying to think of an example, but my girlfriend and I, we have different styles. We have different. Why is that we would do housework at all levels of comfort and so we'll be out of sync and it's not necessarily a mistake, it's just understanding and understanding what the real issue is.


And I mean, different standards. Yeah, I mean, like like which relates to the different like I say like. Terrific. Okay, so let's use the example of lightless, someone who was like five minutes late and that can be cultural, that can be sort of a personal style of someone being more relaxed, someone who was early. That's going to be a continual source of friction. And it's not going to be that you're going to go OK or what it was like.


I'm never going to do that again, because that's part of the makeup of the person and it's about understanding. Was that really an intention? Or was a fact that they is part of who they are and that's the way that's an unresolvable problem. Does that make sense, you said about in touch, you know, they might disappear if delay often, but it could have been half an hour one day. And then you can say again, it's make make an effort.


So it might be five minutes the next week, but you can say I can go make an effort to improve and therefore it's that relationship.


OK, so this is where we get into the narrative because what what you like what one person is going to say that way and they're going to say you're not perfect and you don't care.


That's the narrative. So the reality is that some people are made differently. So this is where you have to communicate. You have to go, OK, so you look you like you know, I'm sitting there and I feel like you don't value me. I feel like you've got no respect for me, no respect for my time. It's making me upset because I'm and what's really making me upset is that you are five, 10, 20 minutes late is the fact that I feel undervalued because you don't care enough to get there on time.


So when you have that level of communication, then you have other person say, well, I really didn't mean it like that. You know, I just. Just didn't didn't have that I wasn't thinking that I was thinking you would be there and it would be it would be fine and we can have a nice time to understand it's there's a difference between the narrative and then it's understanding. It's getting beyond the surface level behavior and getting down into what was the intention, because we're going to misread that.


Their intention was that they didn't care. And it's it's about having a completely different perspective and that's about understanding who they are as a person. Well, feeding onto somebody else is in that example for five minutes, it's still reasonable as well. And, you know, in the bigger picture, you could be spending 20 years with that person. And what's five minutes going a reasonable. Yes, it's about understanding what they really meant and so this is where the communication comes in and it's like, OK, that I'm really upset.


It feels like you didn't value me and I have nothing to do with that. It's just, you know, the kids were there and and I could leave and and I wonder maybe some people are like they want to make everyone happy. And so they do this. And it's understanding that, Pam. And when you get to that, that's the way that you change someone like that, because they're not going to change their five minute being like that, because they're going to go, well, you know, like he doesn't understand.


I've got this, you know, I've got work and keep him behind. I've got to make sure the kids are okay. I need to make sure people are okay. He doesn't care about that. All he cares about is he had to sit in a bar for five, 10 minutes instead of watching narratives cause that problem. Guys, I'm going to have to go, I'm afraid, but thank you very much for an excellent evening once again. So many guys.


Bye bye. Bye bye. I just ask your thoughts about, you know, when it comes to conflicts and. It is generally around, could be completely wrong, but most conflicts not because two people want different things and going back to when they were a couple of people were talking earlier about wanting to move on and different things and. Be about being right or wrong, is it not, why, if it is about just two people, one in different things is it is OK, let's not look at what's right and what's wrong and who's right and who's wrong and what's instead.


Let's look at what's best for the relationship then. It's not about one person getting their own way or one person being right or wrong. It's like then they could not communication can then happen. Then if the both of them are working towards less, try and figure out what's best. Is that to underpin would you say that's the underpinning for conflict and the way to resolve it, or is it honestly a lot more to why these conflicts come up?


Yeah, that's exactly how you resolve it. You resolve. So this is what's happening to right. Right and wrong is binary. And both of those narratives were very, very wrong. Depends on your narrative. So it's not about right or wrong. It's about what? What what makes that? So what you're looking at is we have this conflict now, ultimately, everyone agrees that. And the point of everyone wants to be happy. Everyone wants to be loved.


Everyone wants to love when you get to that level, everyone agrees. Where we disagree is on how you get there. And so the level of conflict, what you need to get to is is is understanding, is understanding of, OK, so this is really important to you. Why is it important to you? You know, and it might be about money. It might be like this is really important to me because I get scared if you when you spend a lot of money or it may be like in this example of all the time, you know, I get really.


I really hurt when you're late because it feels like you don't care, because we're not really arguing about the time, we're not really arguing about the truth, but we're not really arguing about the money that was spent. We were arguing fundamentally about a difference of how are we going to get happy, how we're going to feel loved. And what you need to get to is the make up of what what does someone believe about money or does someone believe about time or does someone believe about the toothpaste capping off?


And when you get home, when you can open up that communication, then you can understand each other and then you can you can agree or realize that you have fundamentally different values. I'm going to work.


Well, is it does it not always boil down to what somebody wants or so somebody wants the toothpaste to be caramel clean. Somebody is not really bothered about the level of how clean things should be or somebody wants to enjoy more anymore and somebody versus the other person that doesn't want to enjoy money or wants to say, for example or like, does it not always boil down to just different ones? And rather than looking at what's the best way, who's right and wrong.


Yes, so OK, so you know, when two people get together, they have two different visions for the relationship, maybe they haven't clearly articulated it, but they have an idea of how they want the relationship to be and they want this person to behave like this. So it fits into their vision. And the other person wants something different. And so, yes, you've got what you've got is this clash of two different ideas. And this is where was talking about this stumbling on happiness.


Daniel Gilbert, I think. And that is because that vision that you have of how you think a relationship should be that isn't going to make you happy. Because and the power of being in in the relationship is that you don't have to change for a great relationship, but a great relationship will change you. And so what will happen is in the diversity, in the change between what you both want and understanding that going deeper and understanding why what what your makeup is, then you can come to a point that's a higher level.


That is an enhanced vision for both of you. Like, I don't know if you've heard of groupthink since basically where a group of of too many like minded people who go, yes, yes, yes, we will agree with that, make terrible decisions. What makes great decisions is where there's argument, where there's conflict because it enlarges. It means that people have to go beyond that right, girl. Yeah. And the same thing with relationship. So that's why you need some differences, because you need.


What we all want is we want to be in this bubble of of the perfect life and money just roll into us the perfect partner, and roll into US relationship easy. We lie on the beach and don't have to do anything. Yeah, actually, people who have that, people who've made fortunes are then like, what do I do?


Yeah. What do I do with my life? I need some meaning. We need what we need is really meaning. We need you know, it's this whole thing of I need to feel significant, not done something worthwhile. I need to feel that I've made a difference to the world and I need to feel that I love people when they love me. And so all of these clashes are about getting to a deeper sense of ourself. And so sorry, you know, I was going to say was I'm hearing two different things there.


So one of them is around the fear about the toothpaste or the toothbrush. I think what you are saying is actually get away from the toothbrush and go down to the value system. So is it the toothbrush or is it the cleanliness of ideas around that? The what is the value around that? What is making how is it making you feel? This bit like when we talked about the lateness? It's not about the lateness. It's the fact that you feel insulted or not careful because the other person is not making the effort to be there on time.


So get down to how does it make me feel better rather than you are doing this or you're not doing that. And what is what does it make you feel most of value around that? I think that's one of the points you're making and the other one is around the variety in that don't expect your partner to be perfect because you know it maybe it's going to be back to square. And you actually differences can be quite helpful in terms of coming up with ideas, because people also have differences, because then they have a different perspective on things and and therefore, that's not wrong.


In fact, that's healthy because they may have a better idea. And you go, oh, right. Yeah, I never thought of that. Excellent. You are more creative. You come up with a better idea than I have, are more practical. I can just get on with it. I think there's two different things.


Yeah. Yeah. And yeah I, I trained as a mediation in mediation for the sake of our very much.


Okay. Bye bye. Yes. I mean is mediation. And so what you do in mediation is you've got two parties that can't come to an agreement. And so basically the process of mediation is. Because. It's like I'm an intermediary, I don't care either way, what I can do is I can get to what someone really feels, what they really fear and understand what they've got to lose and what I really want and do that for both people.


And it becomes that bridge. And so the reason that we don't have clear communication is and we can't resolve the problem just because we don't trust the other person. And it's that lack of trust of being able to reveal or is the US the inability to be vulnerable? Of say what this really means to me, and that's why people argue so vehemently about something silly, because they're scared to say how they really feel. I guess I have a question, can I be heard?


Yes, I have a question about that sort of like selecting the right partner.


Because I heard so many things about, like people becoming good partners for each other rather than finding the right one. And I'm sort of just that looking stage and the dating things. But I would have the intention to be very upfront about who I am and trying to discuss things very early on and kind of have that to eight to find the right partner, to know that we are on the same page and there are fundamental incompatibilities. But then many people are kind of freaked out about it's kind of like this sort of being open and up front came in our group discussion as well.


But I don't know what sort of rate limit to it you can like at the first date, say everything totally. So I don't know how does it actually like what's the key? Key, but what people think is important in that skill of looking for the right partner. I personally, I think you know that stuff, but you don't necessarily need to talk out from because you don't you don't know. So what you have these things of like I need someone that's going to be compassionate, someone is going to be kind, and he's someone that's interesting, committed and a problem that.


So a lot of people will say that up front first and then it's like, whoa, hang on, I don't even know, you know, let's have finished the coffee or I don't know if I'm interested yet, so.


It's like. On adver, they don't necessarily tell you the full details and adver is just like a 30 second clip that will get you an interest. And so I think, first of all, you're quite light. But because the other thing is that sometimes people will be so worried. And it's and what it is, is like, I don't want to waste time. I don't really get her. And so they go, this, this, is this, this.


And so what happens is you can get people who are less than honest and you just tell them exactly what they need to tell you to get you into bed or whatever they want in the short term, and then just walk off and said there are people who will pretend and can pretend very well for a short term relationship. So you don't need to it doesn't matter what someone says, because if you sit down and you and you have a conversation with someone and they're going to go, yes, I'm like they said and they're going to tell you that.


But it's not what people say. It's what they do. And so this is why I think you just be relaxed, because all you're doing the key in dating is you connect to someone. And you're not going to you can someone at different levels, and I think everyone's an individual, everyone's human feelings, hopes and fears, you connect to them, you might not ever want to see them again. But I think that's just the basic humanity. If you can connect to everyone's humanity, that's the way that when you do find someone that you're interested, they're interested, then that's like you say, there's a range of behaviors that one person can display.


They can be a great partner for one person and a terrible partner for another based on how the relationship makes them feel. So we were looking to do is to connect. And you connect just from curiosity. What do they want? What do they think? Just basic humanity.


Without that you're trying to say, though, is that it's not that you are performing and you meet somebody. It's not a performance. So you're focused. If you focus on your behavior and what you want to say and you don't observe the other person and you're not interacting with them, then you are doing yourself a disservice, I think, because you'll never find out what the other person is feeling. You are not you're not playing along with the, you know, the atmosphere that is being generated between both of you.


You're you're concentrating on how you come across what you want to tell that person, how you want them to view you, et cetera. But you're not taking anything of the other person.


And just just relax and have to relax, you have to lie to me. Yeah, just just lie unfold naturally. Just relax. You got to know the person. Yeah, I do that.


But then in some senses, like sometimes it goes on and you have more and more dates and you keep discussing just sort of small talk and you don't get to who you actually are to like discussing something more meaningful, like. I don't like then it kind of keeps being quite long, I don't it wasn't that much about what I'm looking for, but more like being upfront about who I am and would not be a sign that it's not going anywhere.


I don't know, it depends how long it is and some people just sort of I don't know, I also someone needs to make that kind of step, like someone needs to initiate that those things will be discussed. Otherwise you will end up small talking, even if maybe not, because if it's easier, it is not OK. You have to be careful that you don't come across as though you're interviewing for a position, for a job, you know.


Exactly. So, like, I didn't know what was the line of, like, moving on, but at the same time not looking like I'm already thinking about what will happen in 20 years and all of that it does for the connections.


So basically you sit and you have a conversation and you're interested. And that level of conversation, that connection of wanting to understand them, of being interested in them is going to is going to go to my case eventually. It's going to go you know, just there is that's like surface level taller people do on stage, which is like you try to impress someone and all that stuff. But it's almost like, okay, you know, they're talking about the job.


What did you do that job, you know, what got you into that field? And then they're going to be story and I'm going to talk about their relationship. And how did you feel? What did this happen? And when you do that, if it doesn't go deeper, is probably because they don't want to. It means that they don't want to show you. And so if you're genuinely interested, not let you have any checklist, like, I think you should have that checklist, but you put that checklist six months is when you bring that checklist out, dude.


I mean, do they do they still do this until that time when we were doing this, correcting your connecting and seeing who they are, that's a really good way to get to the deeper level of the person by asking the sorts of questions and upset because it feels more natural. It doesn't come across. We still got a sense of the person and then can still get a sense of you.


It's just a genuine connection, a genuine interest in who they are and what they can bring you. But who are they? What made you what happened in your childhood? You know, what made you who you are?


You can scare people off, but you can scare people off who could be a pretty good partner or you could have a relationship with if you start to be too intense, too soon. And on a first date, I know that I'm protective of myself and not what I am, who I am. And so if you start to ask me questions, certain questions on a first date, I will tell you it was nice talking to you, but I think Devinn.


Right, let's call it, you know, let's just end this. Some things I think come out in an organic fashion. As you talk, you say, hey, but I like that, too. Do you like and it starts OK. That's one thing. I think if you go with a list, people can feel very threatened. What is this? I just going to be a person who ticks the boxes. What about me, the individual?


What about just like any I mean, do you even. You know, do you like me? What what about me, do you like, apart from these things that are in the box? Because having tick, tick, tick in all of the boxes doesn't mean that you like the person genuinely either. I didn't really mean ticking boxes. No, you don't. But you know what I mean. Like, you like sharing more deeper things about myself.


But then if you are not getting that back, it's over. Yeah, I don't know, I just a very strange experience. I think the first thing is you want to look at is like a 30 second advert for the whole thing. So you don't want to tell everyone everything. You don't want to. You're not going to see everything but just organically unfold. If it doesn't go deeper, then over time, then they're probably not the person that's going to have that level of conversation that you want.


And so that's a to be treated like the last six months. Sorry. Well, uh. Rather than but I just wondered whether you could treat it like might be a bit cheesy, but I could box set like a TV series, so you don't want to see everything in episode one. But, you know, with the right person, you want to you're looking forward to it. So to episode three and not finding out everything you know. And we've touched upon not interrogating people, not interviewing people, let it flow.


You gradually getting to know somebody I know. So I want to know what you want. Kids I want to know about. I met somebody at. After a casual meeting, someone in a bar met and the next day and I felt interrogated when they invited me around the house asking about all the past and the past relationship on the first time ever abated and it felt interrogated. It didn't feel natural, like asking about asking me all sorts of really deep questions on the first time we'd arranged to meet.


And I just felt, yeah, I felt like really like light shining on me interrogate. So it just put me off. I think I've been doing that definitely in question. So the thing that's. Yeah, Ed, so six months sounds like quite a lot to invest into one person, to try to get to know them, just to find out something is like very fundamental, I think, after maybe about three or four days.


So you get an idea wherever it's going somewhere or not to know whatever it's worth to get to know them deeper, more and more ever so.


Okay, so what's your fear? I don't know, I just have no idea how to do these things, like I only had the experience of one guy so far who is like all the time. I never even asked about any of his previous relationships or anything like that. And he has been just repeating, like I am over my fear issue. It's been very long. And then suddenly becomes like he was actually saying that to himself about it, that it wasn't true.


But like otherwise, I have no experience of that. I'm just like, I guess I might be oversharing about myself. I am definitely not interrogating anyone, but I am like just trying to be open about. What they can expect of me, I they might be feeling like it's a bit too intense and I'm too serious and all of that. And I think Louise has got an answer. I just want to say before I think most of it is.


Looking at connecting rather than looking for the relationship and just connect with people and eventually they'll show themselves to new instruments.


So, yes.


I think we need to be careful about how much pressure we put on a first date and sometimes having that need to have a conversation because we are not doing anything is the conversation is the thing.


It puts a lot of pressure on what we see and what we're expecting from that. Whereas if you are doing an activity. If you're doing an activity, it helps to take the pressure off of having to think about what I'm going to see and how I'm going to respond to what that person says. And it helps to break the ice, I find. Yeah, I think if you knew that you will have a relationship and you will find the right person, it's just a matter of you need to the way that you get there is to connect, connect to as many people.


And in connecting, you know, if they're right, not. I think Louise is going to type in. While we're waiting for Louisa, is anyone else got questions? I find it hard just to get out there, I think, and in what way? Well, I can't engage with online dating sites. Really hate them. And attend to the things I'm interested in tend to be they tend to be more women in their in the groups.


Otherwise, it's kind of like a drug culture, you know, it's going it's being surrounded by alcohol, it's and things, but, you know. I tried climbing, actually, but to be honest, what you're so focused on on on the climb that you're not going to the people.


And I'm the wrong age group anyway. And what do you mean?


Well, I'm in my 50s and a lot of them are a lot younger when they come. And anyway, I kind of I'm I'm not a Tomiyama, so I'm older than you. Yeah. And there's lots of life left in me. So therefore. Come on, let's get going, though.


Where do you get going? Oh, well, now that's a good question.


So what what is the problem with online dating. What do you hate. I just can't make that connection with people, I can't engage with the computers. I don't know who they are. I don't have that sense of trust. I can't really differentiate from one to the other. I don't particularly like the photos. They just put me off. I can't read the non-verbal. I just don't like it. And I don't have to phrase myself, I don't have to put myself down on paper either.


Makes me feel anxious. OK, so it's about being able to express yourself clear, clear enough to attract the right people. And then like, what about if you I mean, online dating, it's just you got lots of people, but it's not about the connection, it's about and basically the ad for them where you can have a phone conversation, video conversation, and that's where you can get some level of connection. There is something that you can't get until you in person.


Yes, but the men don't seem to realize that they are putting out an ad. I do not want to see another fish, another tank out of their chest hairs, you name it.


There's no snowboarding, advertising themselves, skiing and snowboarding and motorbikes that maybe they think about the stuff in front of a helicopter and the pilots, whatever, and some speedboat. Come on, fellows. As an arrow, looking at that profile now says that you were in the Navy.


Yeah, I wish I had a helicopter to stand in front of when I thought if you put yourself in front of one, because I'm going to say that's not yours, you're alive. Exactly.


I don't know when you can see I've got a couple sitting in front of the job that I would say to Nancy. But certainly for me, because I don't get along very well with I'm dating either. I find it quite claustrophobic environment, but I think I've found Meetup quite helpful. Me so know, obviously, that we're out now, but things like walks and there are plenty of other events going on which don't revolve around pubs and you just get to meet and chat with people.


You know, there's quite a lot of picnics and stuff going on.


I mean, obviously the weather's not very good at the moment. You just get to meet people and quite often you actually get to meet the same people as well, because some of the people saying people do go on the same things. So it actually does help you to meet other people, I suppose. So it's often quite helpful if you like talking, rather than which I prefer that as well. I think it's the context that I like to make people in context, and I think online dating takes out the context.


It does. It does, but that's just the way that you meet a lot of people. So if you can treat it, I don't think anyone really likes online dating. It is I think it is a toxic environment, but it lets you meet lots of people that you can then kind of filter whittled down. So, yeah, so that you can get to that other real life where you can have the contact.


I think, Rob, I think I've been on a couple of dating sites. And when you say meet, I don't meet anybody.


Thanks for being here. I just have to have a profile. I don't meet the needs of dating sites.


OK, so you never progress to actually meet them in person? No, because you don't feel that level of comfort with them.


I have met I've made a good friend from an online dating site. He was a friend. Well, have you tried speed speed dating? I have an about 10 years ago, but not recently. I think it's superficial. I think it's an artificial construct of organic. I actually quite like the idea of Meetup. I just think it's a natural. It takes away the pressure as well. You can't you can't make a decision about somebody in 10 seconds or whatever they gave you.


I think it's just a moneymaking device. I'm a bit cynical about this.


I don't know. I've never been is is an idea for you to speak to someone after three minutes whether you want to speak to them again, it doesn't mean you have to, do you? I'm not saying it's right for everybody. It just says if you spoke to me for three minutes, you want to speak to me again, you ought to email. Would you want to text me to call me? It's just it's just a start. And I think you don't need you have to come.


Don't don't mean you have to sleep with that person next time you meet them. It just means right. You spoke to me for three minutes on that three minutes. You want to speak to that person again? I've actually I did it. Twice last year and after virtual speed dating, which was very unsuccessful, over lock down the bot on speed dating back to people that have become mates with. So it's sometimes it's trying something different, like online dating, speed dating meetup a what is it working?


Let's just try something different. I think it's very nice. It's not the best or the worst, but it allows you to filter and maybe come across people you'll never cross. You might commute and you might meet somebody who's a nurse and works nights and days. But somehow your paths crossed because you're trying some different.


I'm just going to Louise's finish now because she was able to talk, so just to read out and it's her point is just really to be natural when your diets see how the guys behave. Unimaginable really matters for you. For example, if you're looking for a long term relationship, you need to be clear. The person you date is looking for a long term relationship, or maybe you can write an email letter to tell the guy what you want in a relationship, only mentioning stuff that really matters for you.


The relationship personality can't be a marriage. Whether that's important or not, I think being genuine but reasonable. You know, I would definitely be up for, like, writing that sort of e-mail or like telling them, but I think that's exactly the thing that's going to be too intense for many people. If I tell them I would like this sort of relationship and I don't know, it's my first one and all of these things.


It sounds a bit like a contract. I think it's one that makes me think of if you if you if it sounds like a prenup or something or you're asking someone to agree to something, obviously you kind of have to go into a as the best thing to do is establish whether you like them. And that's one way of saying if you're meeting someone you don't know, the first thing you've got to do is walk out. If they're honest and trustworthy, that can take a while unless you're really waiting for your friend.


So I think I'd be very wary. I mean, I did have online dating because I'm thirty four. So I'm at that age where a lot of women who were sort of if they're single or a lot of them want kids. So there's a sense of urgency about it. And I've had that with the fear with them that you sort of chatting to them for the second day and they're immediately talking about, I really want our children and and it's kind of like we're OK.


You know, I'm just trying to meet people. I suppose, you know, I'm thinking about a long term relationship, but I'm not I'm not talking to every person trying to have a long term relationship. I'm just trying to meet people. And obviously, for me, I was in a nine year relationship. I'm not that used to talking to women because my mother didn't really talk to kids about it and basically say, you know, I've got to learn how to do that.


Things have moved on, you know, since I was on the market before. I suppose you got to adapt and learn what's different, really.


But it's no different for well, for me, you know, as a female, when I look at the some of the things that the men put on their profiles, they are looking for a relationship, a long term relationship. They're looking for the one I am not looking for the one or the relationship to say that the first person that I if I meet you, that's the relationship I, I would like to meet people. And if I like you, then I will pursue it to see if it will go anywhere but to state up front.


So I just don't want to even say I like you are can we meet or anything because. That's that's too much pressure. And.


There is a theory sorry, I thought there is a theory, a mathematical solution to how you choose the right partner and it's basically you see 37 percent of the profiles. And in the next person, who's better than the last people that you saw? That's the one you choose.


So it's basically I talk about it. No, sorry.


There was a TED talk about this. Yes. There's an old mathematical formula and it was about. OK, so how it was originally phrased was there's an emperor who's got all these beautiful daughters. And he says, if you pick one of my daughters and she agrees to marry you, you will have a dowry. And they've all got different dowries. And but you meet them one by one and you have to say yes or no as they're there. And so the solution is that I think there's one hundred daughters and you see 37 of them.


The next one who's better than anyone that you've had, that's the one you choose. And so classically, it works out that that yeah, that is the way you choose because it's not perfect, but it's. It's knowing that you don't need to. To like, because some people are waiting for perfection and some people are jumping too soon, but you can see enough people. I guess my problem is that they are better than the previous fifty seven because I hate dating apps, that they are very superficial, like some of them are better than others.


But I just can't open the up. I chat with them for a while. I still can tell I go for free dates and it's been fun, like with any other friends I can talk to almost anyone, but I still don't know if they are better than the other people like it takes ages and a lot of time investment and I need to meet like a few people at once. And then at the same time, like then both. We need to make the decision that we are going to commit to this one rather than to the others.


And there's some of that narrative. So some of that is narrative, and that's what you need to get clear of what is narrative and what's true. So then what's kind of driving that is the sense that you can't invest that much time in other people. It's like a fear of I can't invest time and it be wasted. So I invested a lot and it turned out of those doesn't work out from the other side.


So you're building the relationship. The last is a process that that process means finding the right person. It's better that you spend six months, and I'm not saying that you have to be with some have six months but connect, you really like them, you invested in them. It's better that you find out six months that they doubt you and they want the right person and you feel that you wasted time, you didn't waste that time. You got clearer.


There's a certain amount of people you want to and this is what I'm talking about. You connect and there's some people you can go. I connect to them. I had a great conversation.


But it's not that that's not wasted because the more honestly you can connect, the quicker you'll get to if they're right or they're not. And so you need to be really clear that your list, like it's OK, then it's to what a serious relationship they need to talk about the stuff. Some people won't ever have done that, but they might grow to in a relationship if you have the connection. So it's getting really clear, really clear on what your list, what is non-negotiable, that is really non-negotiable, not narrative that is non-negotiable.


And said that this is the other thing is that so many people have these lists that will aren't the things that will make them happy. They meet someone who takes all these lists five years later that they're miserable. So there's you have to realize this stuff that in a blind spot that you're not seeing. And if you can let it unfold on that, naturally, it won't ever be wasted because you're just connecting. If you can connect to the humanity of everyone, connect to who they really are.


You'll see them quicker and you'll get there quicker then than you would otherwise. Does that make sense? Yeah, I mean, you don't need to all my problems, I mean, I was just throwing it up in the discussion, but yeah, yeah, it's a common thing and tried to connect with the people.


It's a combination, but. Yeah, and that's why I'm kind of picking and trying to get underneath it.


But it's interesting for to realize from all of you.


Glad you found that. I'm just going to speak out Louise is because she hasn't got a voice at the moment. That's what you need to see how they behave like actions speak louder than words. How and she's asking, how do you understand what other people need? So for me, that's you connect and it's curiosity, what makes you who you are? What do you what really drives? What do you really want? That's how you understand I don't know what anyone else's view is.


They lost the mother. You do it in a roundabout way, hopefully it happens when I'm not great for small talk to be fat, so I do tend to jump off quite quickly. Generally, that's kind of my way, basically. But I think I quite like just asking people, really. But you can do it in a way that I think that doesn't scare them off. You have to you know, I think if you go in there with preconceived ideas of what you're going to go, you know, if you go into a fight with like objectives, then I think that you're in the audience enough of that because you're probably going to end up getting a response you don't like, even if that person actually if you let it develop naturally, you think you might get the response you like.


Or the alternative is you're going to get someone who you don't want to be in a relationship, but they're going to play you because you don't exactly what you need to say.


But there are subtle ways of that. I mean, this one in our breakout session at it, we were kind of talking about there's a difference between sort of. On a hope, someone helps the bond, but like, you know, when you're in a relationship, you obviously you try and make each each other better. So there's a bit of education and sort of trying to help and help each other out. But there's a boundary between that. And manipulation isn't our fault.


And I think in terms of the way you interact with people, there are ways that you can you can subtly sort of asked someone if you it sounds terrible, actually, but but in your situation, if you really do have these last set of tests for them, I suppose nothing.


But, you know, quite often because actions speak louder than words, you can probably find out quite easily if you serve.


But that means that you're going to need to invest in a few more days. This is the thing you will never on a first date get on a mission that you want to get to feel comfortable that this is the one. It's just not feasible.


And so to me, the first date is it's a seeking out experience. It's it's a kind of flitting around to see whether or not there is we like to be in the same space. We can have a conversation, etc. It is fine. It's finding out. It is seen whether or not you can you like to be with each other in each other's space and you can have a conversation that flows. I'm talking to somebody who said hello to me, and if I write a sentence to say, oh, and how is the weather today?


You know, the usual generic stuff. But just to break the ice, I get it. It's fine. First up and then you try again. Yes, OK. First up, I mean, you know, I've just about given up because nothing comes back. It's the answer, the answer to anything that I propose until that is not a conversation.


There's definitely something for a friend of mine who's is happily married and has been. So there's been this she said to me that the relationships aren't supposed to be that hard work. If you see, I mean, I think I'm not. So you effort into that. But if you happen to put that much effort into having that conversation, then that person is probably not right for you. I the other. Even at the beginning, I'm saying if you meet somebody and the conversation is flowing, you find that you can laugh about some things you find funny, because that is also part of discovering what the person is like, the big lists.


Yes, it's the big things, but can't. Do you have the same sense of humor? Do you find the same things funny? Do you like do you see that you like the same things to eat, similar things, to eat those little things, add up with these casual dates and they are important because of course we all sometimes here I can't remember the exact phrase, but it's the little things that count, you know.


And so I think we must not think that the big list. Is the only thing that is important, the little things that start from the very first time you meet that person, they all contribute to your impression of that person.


When I'm in, a lot of people aren't very confident either. I mean, personally, when I go on dates, I'm nervous, so I don't actually have to live with that because that's the thing. So if someone was going on the first date with me, it probably wouldn't give a very good representation that they will actually and possibly even the second or third time as well. Unless there was an instant connection then I was lucky with my ex that that we actually did have that.


It was like a shot. Like we literally did just make basically we were introduced by mutual friends and she'd apparently known about me for a year and I only knew about her about a week before I.


And so I didn't have a of time to worry about it. And she decided that she quite look at me or I whatever. So and as soon as we met each other, you know, we just knew that we were going to have a relationship, but probably not. After that, I thought about what it's going to be like again. You know, I think I'd be pretty amazing if I I've gotten used to that. I've got to be a bit more circumspect than last, so.


So I was quite interested in how you said about the tests as well, because I I'm kind of fond of that because I'm very outdoorsy person. And when I go outdoors with people, I feel that that's when they really uncover their real personality. Like, if I go like about Campagna someone and get to know them better with these situations, I think there's nothing wrong in that.


You know, it's not manipulation. You're just finding it, just finding out what a person's like. But it's better to do it that way, I think, than it is to ask, because I would just back off as a man if you met a man who's going to deal with all those questions, like Sandra said, that he probably needs to run most from probably not the best plan.


But not only that, if if you're in on a relaxing environment, things come more naturally and it's more open.


If you are in an environment where you are stressed or get guarded answers, you are no answer at all or an answer that is to you of the truth. So whereas in a spontaneous, a spontaneous reaction is usually the truth.


To some, you know, it's the red, you see the real person, it's what you want to see, what you want to hear. Whereas if you ask me a straightforward question and I don't want to answer you, I'm going to give you a very guarded response, which tells you absolutely nothing and is going to frustrate you.


I mean, I think I apologise to people who don't drink, but generally, if you want to find out honestly about and then just get absolutely hammered with them, it's generally the way it's got be the case.


But if you do and let's see what people are really like, then getting drunk with them is a very good ride. But personally, for me, I wouldn't want to do that on the first date.


But I know quite quickly.


Yeah, but if you don't, you won't remember what they said anyway.


If you're drunk and I do you like me or whatever, if you got them to sign your contract, that basically they say I mean it's very dangerous.


Early days, my friend had some very creepy situations happening online dating. Without even being drunk. That now I think you have to be I think that's what I'd say well, first. I think something like a walk or a coffee or something. I mean, we were talking about this last week, but I think a walk or a coffee or something like that or lunch. Yeah, probably goes for a first date. It needs to be something. I'm going to say innocuous know something quite light, I think, really.


All I'm saying is that within like a month or something, I would expect that someone pop and then we got out of office. But then you see their true colors, my experience.


So I would go camping instead of usually that's a good situation. So that's. Yeah, that's good companies. Good alternative to the drinking. Yeah.


I mean, there are other non-alcoholic ways. When I was the great outdoors and you know, campfires and stuff is a very good way for people to be.


But I am not against alcohol or anything.


But whether you like the outdoors and the other person doesn't like, you will know right up front.


I guess I'm looking for people who have at least some sort of slight intention to go out with me. Right. There you go. We next week, we've got about getting over a divorce and break up, but the one after that we've got Sanjay is on the call last week is founder of a dating app. So he's offered to do a couple of talking about what works on dating apps, how dating apps work. So that might be that should be an interesting.


Coulter, you know, get like the inside information. And maybe he'll have some. For some. Like this initial connection and how you can go a bridge across that kind of artificial connection and. Like how you develop that out. It's not like another good friend of mine who said she said, you just got a. Smiling, I think, really, because obviously, you know, there's a lot of rejection in any type of looking for relationships, you just have to not let it get you down looking for jobs as well as it's kind of a similar thing.


You know, you got everything that you do, lots of application forms. Sometimes you don't even hair back and other times you get you think it went well? It didn't go well, you know, and eventually hopefully if you just keep and keep that momentum when you finally get a job, but you have to obviously go through those sort of that your 50s things where you didn't get anywhere to get the one that really matters, I suppose.


Yeah, I think he's that is that mindset of treating it like a project and not being emotional about it, because if you try to treat him emotionally like it's, you know, excited, dejected, then it's just a rollercoaster. And it's yeah. I think a dating app is just. Somewhere where you can find some people who can connect with in some. And then from there, it's just then it has to become real. Doesn't you say eventually you need to decide to become real and become vulnerable, otherwise it doesn't lead anywhere?


Oh, definitely. And if someone doesn't, you know, if you've been out three or four days and you're not going to be on Smalltalk, that means that they don't probably even the a person that stays on top because they don't want to go beyond or they're not going to open up and that they still have something to hide.




Hmm. OK, well, thank you, everyone, for being here and enjoyed the discussion and hopefully see you next week or if you come next week will be whichever Monday you can make. Thanks, everyone. Thank you. Thank you.