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From Nothing to Profit - Matt Hoaglin and Kia Bondurant 11th February 2019
Grant Andrew – Episode 019 – A Photographer Podcast Interview

Grant Andrew – Episode 019 – A Photographer Podcast Interview

Ready to shake things up? Today, Matt and Kia interview Grant Andrew, Matt’s friend and business coach. Listen in to hear them talk about how important the message is you’re putting out to your ideal client. The person running the business, is the message. Who are you, what do you have to offer, what do you love? Then, who does that work for? Who are you excited to work with and photograph? Grant suggests you try a lot of things, see what works, then do more of that. When you’re first starting out, it’s a discovery process. Recognize when something “sparks joy”. And it’s a living process as you grow and evolve. Be careful who you are accepting advice from to begin with. Seek out voices you resonate with on a bigger plane. “Detect your purpose” – Stephen Covey Ask your employees, family, friends – what do they see you enjoying and also avoiding? Embrace the great exchange.

Book Recommendation: 

The Greatest Salesman in the World (strange read, but 10 great nuggets in the middle):  https://amzn.to/2B8FC98

Reach out to grant:  grant@grantandrew.net

Read Full Transcript

Transcription was done by Temi.com which means it’s an AI generated transcript. The transcript may contain spelling, grammar and other errors, and is not a substitute for watching the video.

Grant: [00:01] Hey, this is grant Andrew and you’re listening to from nothing to profit.

Speaker 2: [00:05] Welcome to from nothing to profit, a photographer’s podcast with Matt and Kayak where each week they talk to photographers about what is working in their business now so you can swipe those ideas and grow your business faster.

Matt: [00:20] Hey everybody. Welcome to from nothing to profit with Matt in Kenya. So this week we have a really amazing guests. He’s actually one of my friends and he also does some business coaching for me. His name is grant Andrew and the reason grant is on here as Kaiser actually never met him. Kyle just met him like 30 seconds ago when we jumped on this recording but I wanted to meet him because he helps me a ton but we had this really interesting conversation and grant I’ll try to just summarize it real quick and then kyle and I can kinda. You can Kinda, you can tell your version of the story and then Chi and I can kind of ask you additional questions. But grant and our grant, I were having this conversation where he we’re talking about, I’m speaking at a PPA, Boise, well I guess it’s Pdpa Ppa, I Idaho and a couple of weeks and he was asking, well what are you going to talk about?

Matt: [01:06] And I said, well, you know, talk about marketing and stuff like that. And then I was making this joke about how every time you go to a marketing seminar they spend like half of their talk talking about like avatars are, who your ideal client is and you know, I said, you know, I’m not going to spend all this time just spending the time making people who figure out who their ideal client is because I feel like, again, joking that everybody in the photography industry thinks their ideal client is people with millions of dollars. And that’s, you know, whenever like who, who’s your ideal client? I don’t know, somebody that’ll spend eight grand with me and you know, they have a billion dollars in grant money. This really interesting comment. And we had a very short conversation. But then I cut them off because I wanted to continue the conversation here at the podcast and he’s in cramped, correct me if I’m wrong, but you basically said that the message you put in front of somebody is more important than the actual avatar of the person because again, I want to see, I don’t want to put words in your mouth, but you said something along the lines, like, your ideal client can be a millionaire that’s willing to spend $8,000 with you, but if you don’t know how to talk to that person, it’s kind of pointless.

Matt: [02:08] Right? Is that where you were kind of saying?

Grant: [02:10] Yeah, I mean, I think, um, I’m just, um, I’ve done a lot of work in marketing and, and, and I hear this, you know, these terms come to light. And I, I guess it’s, um, it’s a little bit just like what’s oftentimes I feel like when we, when we start a task, right, we gravitate to like the, the easy part, you know? So it’s sort of our units. I always joke, it’s like the American thing, right? You’re like, I want to get into camping, so you go buy a tent because going to the store and buying something that’s obviously, you know, that’s the easy part of campaign, right? Whatever you’re into, you know, I mean, you know this with fishing, right? You see people all the time or like I want to get a deficient, go spend, you know, $2,000. And then you’re like, well, how’s the fishing? It’s all in the garage. So in some ways, like, you know, when I talked to, when I talked to marketing folks and we talk about personas, we talk about avatars and all that. It, it feels similar, especially we’re talking about small

Grant: [03:00] businesses that are run by one person or a couple of people and there’s really a, a personality in the business, right? I mean, when you’re talking about someone who is, um, you know, say a photographer who’s largely working solo, I think that the Avatar can easily become a distraction. And so, you know, in my mind, just a couple of places to go before that. I mean, right, is to actually kind of really understand who you are and what you’re, what you’re able to offer, what you’re, what you’re capable of offering. And one of the things I think gets lost in that avatar conversation is like, you know, like I could be anybody who has money, right? To your point who has $8,000 because whatever they need, that’s what I am and I’m sure we all have stories where that really doesn’t work that way. So I think it’s just important to kind of begin with the first things and not begin with sort of the easy things. And that was, that was kind of our conversation there and just the jumping off point for this larger conversation is, you know, wow, um, how do we, how do we actually do the hard work maybe as opposed to the easy work that gets us started and um, you know, with, with that slight introduction, I’d also like to say thanks for having me on because this is a lot of fun and I’m sure we’re going to push the boundaries of, of a thought process as we often do.

Matt: [04:20] Yeah. And in this car, as I was thinking about this conversation coming up to this point, it made me think about, I read a book and I want to, I think, I think it was a Dan Kennedy book, I’d have to, I’ll link it in the show notes, but it talked about how to market to affluence affluent people. And one of the main points I took from the book was like, the average person doesn’t know how to market to an affluent person because you don’t even understand what it’s like for them to spend $40,000 on a coffee table. Right? Like you’re like $40,000 may be all the money you make in a year, you know, and they’re, they’re willing to just go drop it on a coffee table, you know, like, it’s so, like it’s just different conversations. And so sometimes I think a lot of photographers fail because they’re marketing to somebody who they aren’t necessarily as well.

Grant: [05:06] Right. And I think ultimately, you know, we’re, we’re, we’re, as marketers, we’re trying to project or broadcast a message. And the question is what’s the message? And I think in the case of, um, you know, have a, have a business that’s run by someone, there are the message and so you know, you, you start with who are you and what are you good at and, and where are the places that you really add value and, and who you’re going to talk to and how you’re going to connect with them as all downstream from that.

Kia: [05:38] I feel like I’m standing in a club, you know, and like a room and I’m like, look, bouncing back and forth between you guys. And it’s funny because normally I’d be like, all right, I’m out. I’ll talk to you guys later. Find a conversation where I’m the center of the conversation. Just sorry. But so what you’re saying grant is essentially that figuring out your Avatar is easy in your viewpoint, but figuring out who you are is more difficult and something that we typically have

Grant: [06:07] void. Well, yeah. I think in a true sense figuring out your Avatar is very difficult. But I think that if you start on that process before you’ve done the internal work, then it’s like, then it’s like, well, who’s my avatar? If I want to sell $8,000 packages, people with $8,000, we’re done. This was easy. Well, it’s got to be something missing here, right? Yeah. Because the real question is,

Kia: [06:34] is what are you trying to sell and who are you going to attract? Because that’s a very different person than just the general person out there with a lot of money and the. And the other thing is, is maybe your client isn’t someone with a lot of money, but it’s someone who values what you do so much that they’re willing to change what they do to make it happen.

Grant: [06:56] Yeah, exactly. And once again, how would you know that or how would you find those people? You know? So I guess I guess if I, if I were to sort of lay this out a little bit, I’d say to me that sort of persona avatar idea. Yeah.

Grant: [07:08] It’s sorta like the third step, right? So the first thing is you have to know yourself, who are you, what do you have to offer, what do you love? You know, what, what is, uh, what, what, what’s working for you, right? I mean, because here’s the thing, if you’re marketing something or you’re selling something and you’ve chosen a market, uh, so you’ve chosen a really serious market, maybe you’re trying to appeal to business people, you’re trying to talk to, you know, corporate clients or whatever, right? And that’s not you, that’s going to be awful. It’s going to be hard, right? So right away, like people are going to get this sort of like, man, it looks like this guy is really working to do marketing that’s gonna, you know, you’re going to see smoke and you know, here’s your screeching and stuff. Um, so, so you have to know yourself and then you have to know who your approach works for in part of that is going out there and doing a bunch of work and then examining what’s resonating, what, which clients, what, what types of clients or what types of jobs are like easy for me, I just do this stuff.

Grant: [08:08] I show up, I do my magic. You do your magic. This works so good for both of us. This is amazing. Now we’re starting to see where this is, right? If we, if we haven’t gotten to that step and done enough work to, to uncover that a bit, then the persona or Avatar is like all aspirational, right? I’d like to sell to people who are 40 to 60 who have a lot of money.

Kia: [08:27] Yeah. You know, it’s a really interesting and the photography industry, you see this happen over and over where there’s a superstar who does one thing really well and then so many other photographers, you know, they buy their package or they hear them speak and then all of a sudden they’re using the same language, the same imagery, same type of imagery, the same business model. And like you said, it screeches, you know, it’s like there’s something off here. It’s not, this isn’t quite right because essentially what they’re doing is just trying to replicate what someone else has done instead of figuring out who they are.

Matt: [09:03] Mrs Smith’s inauthentic authenticity for sure.

Kia: [09:06] [inaudible]. Yeah. Yeah.

Matt: [09:08] Well, so here’s how I see the photography. Again, I’m stereotyping to prove a point, but what I see is that a lot of people start, they purchased a camera, they photograph, you know, all of their friends and then when they run out of their friends they go get educated and then the next thing they do is they did make the jump from all their friends who paid them, you know, nickels and pennies, which is, which is fine. And then they go, you know, I only want to sell $3,000 packages and I just think that’s where a lot of people fall down and like I don’t. Then they’re like, oh, well there’s not, there’s too many photographers, you know, trying to go after the exact same person versus like trying to find your own little niche and then just, you know, hustling inside that niche and just kicking butt.

Grant: [09:49] Yeah, I think, I think this idea that I love is that this type of this type of work, and this is one of the places I think people get get stuck, right? So, so matt, you know, you guys are, you guys are pretty mature in terms of business models and ways and so you’re at a point of trying to ask a question. Like when you go to build a process or you go to fix something or you go to enter a new market, you’re looking at, is this scalable? Right? Can we do this at size? Can we do this at speed? I think that people start to ask those questions too soon and that creates part of this problem because the work of figuring out who you are and who your thing works for doesn’t have to be scalable.

Grant: [10:34] So you say, well, you know, I just ran a general ad and, and you know, in a week I booked five different kinds of jobs and I shot a family and I shot a portrait. Then I and I and I went to a school and I did and there’s no way I could do that at scale. Well, if you’re new, there’s no need to do that at scale. What you’re doing there is actually getting data and the data gathering process is not, doesn’t have to be at scale because we’re not trying to figure out like we’re not trying to make a million dollars a year. We’re trying to figure out where’s the vein that I should go dig down on. And, and when you do that, you do all these little test holes, right? You just go out and you just like, you want to do a pattern that says, okay, last week I did 10 things, which of those 10 things kind of worked for me? And so, so once again, people hear someone like you talk about some of your challenges in business and they’re like, wow, I got to be careful. I don’t do something that doesn’t scale well at this point you just need to do anything. If you’re early in the process you need to do something and then once you start to see what works, finding something that scales is like a later more mature conversation.

Matt: [11:35] Right. And grant you and I spent a lot of time talking about like, you know, making sure we’re doing work that is filling our buckets, you know, because you could go and try to be somebody else or you could, you know, go into a niche that just isn’t natural to you and it’ll just wear you out, you know, and they’ll just wear you down. But if you’re working with people that fill your bucket, then it’s like a different process. It’s not like you don’t have to go to work everyday, you know, you just get up and do your job and it’s just fun.

Grant: [12:00] Absolutely. But, but to do that, you know, and I think desperation plays a role here as well, right? So, so if we’re underfunded, undercapitalized in business, we’re kind of ahead of the curve, you know, we can, you know, at some level it’s like, you know, you wind up doing anything you can for a dollar, right? Well, once again, people look badly at that, right? So, so even in that example, Matt, I would say, yeah, you want to be doing work that works for you, but give yourself some time to find that, you know, and recognize you’re gonna have to take your lumps on the way to it. Um, you know, and, and, and, and in that sense, when you do something and it doesn’t work, when you do something and it’s difficult when you do something and you say, wow, I can’t do that over and over again, that becomes a filter that helps you find your way. And when you start to find that way really clearly, then you start to look at the other end of the equation and say, okay great, who is this working for? And, and now what do I do?

Matt: [12:56] That’s okay, here’s, here’s our proposal I have in a sense, and tell me what you think about this. Because as an industry person, it’ll be interesting to see your point of view. Like with what grant just said, I think. I think there’s an opportunity for photographers out there to say the work that I enjoy and the work that was easy for me and the work that felt good at the end of the day was an $800 sale or a $500 sale and they can scale that versus the versus the industry is trying to convince them they have to have a $3,500 sale every time they turn around.

Kia: [13:29] Yeah. You know, this is actually pretty interesting. I just talked to a photographer friend the other day and we were talking about like, you know, I was just asking about his business, how many sessions you did, what was the average was and he said, I think that people killed their businesses, literally killed their businesses by having too high of an expectation for their average sale and then they build their business around it and they just lose clients as they go. And I really, I do think there’s a tolerance in certain, you know, just depends on where you are in that country and where you are in the genre of what you’re photographing. That there’s a certain tolerance that people are like, yes, I’ll be spending a thousand dollars, or yes, I’ll be spending 800 or whatever the number is. That’s just, that is an easy sell and then you, then you go over on the other side of it and it’s a hard sell. And I actually. It’s kind of a funny conversation, but like we are. That’s what I’m literally doing in my business right now is trying to find that sweet spot that’s right below. It becomes a hard sell

Matt: [14:35] exactly because it’s just so much more work and I totally agree with the conversation that you had where I see photographers just killing their business and they’re going from photographing families and making nickles to, you know, not trying to find that sweet spot and going straight so well everybody tells if I’m going to be a successful photographer, I have to have $3,500 average, which we can have a whole conversation about how our industry inflates their averages. But I just don’t think that’s the sweet spot for everybody. You know, there’s a, there’s a few superstars in our industry that, that do that and they’re happy with it and they’re, they’re natural at it and that’s great. But I just don’t think everybody in the industry has to follow that way. And it makes me think a lot with it being conferences season right now and people going to imaging and WPPI. I just, you know, it just makes me cringe when I just know some of these people are going to go on stage and convince people that they have to have the $3,500 average. Obviously the higher the average, the better for the business. Right. Because in theory there

Kia: [15:29] you do, you have a $3,500 average and only photograph 30 clients. That’s, you know, or you could have a $2,500 average and photograph 100 clients. Those are two very different businesses.

Matt: [15:42] No, I agree. Yeah, it’s, it’s just, it’s just interesting as I don’t know the answer in our industry, but just make sometimes this type of year, this time of year makes me cringe with all the conferences.

Kia: [15:53] I think the answer is to not be too proud to do what’s right for you.

Matt: [16:00] Yeah, I think that’s really good. So grant, what, what, what, what is your advice to somebody? I guess I have two questions and they, they’re connected, but like what’s the advice for someone that’s trying to figure out themselves or somebody that’s trying to figure out that sweet spot either. I think they’re one in the same question, but they’re kind of different.

Grant: [16:17] Yeah. And I think, um, I think the sweet spot is probably after themselves. Right? So I think the first porn is, is kind of what I, we talked about earlier, like do a lot of stuff, don’t lead with the need to make all this money, right? I mean if you look at somebody who’s a top performer in your business and say, hey, you know, this person is charging 100 grand a session, you know, I wanted to make 100 grand this year, I’ll just do one session and I’ll be there.

Speaker 6: [16:47] Well,

Grant: [16:48] you know, the Kai’s point, that’s, that’s, that’s a good way to kill things, right? Have you ever made 50 grand? Have you ever made 25 grand? Have you ever made 10 grand? Have you made five grand to start doing stuff? And, and don’t worry about the money as much. Just recognize this is part of the discovery process.

Matt: [17:08] And, and how, how long do, I mean this is a loaded question, but how long do you think somebody should give themselves to figure that out?

Grant: [17:14] You know, well, I, I think um, you know, so I’ll, I’ll steal a steal of a popular culture reference at the moment that Marie Kondo ruined your life on Netflix is a, is the newest series and um, and my wife and I watched it because she’s read all their books and

Speaker 6: [17:30] you know,

Grant: [17:32] what can I say? So, you know, I noticed a couple of things that were interesting. One was that she or so her whole thing is like what sparks joy, right? So when you pick up an item, you should feel this, this little burst of joy, right? Like, I love this, I love that I have this. And she, her,

Grant: [17:51] her system of tidying from, um, maybe the most incidental like clothes which are pretty easy to sort out. They’re pretty inexpensive, they’re pretty replaceable, right? And then she moves through your house and the last thing she does is sentimental items. And the reason that she does that is because she believes that as you work through these steps, your sort of compass or your sensitivity to what sparks joy is increasing.

Grant: [18:18] And so she puts the hardest thing at the end after you actually start to get a sense of, of what that is right after you’ve probably picked up hundreds of things and said, does this spark joy? And then actually felt that. So, um, you know, I would say that if you’re, if you’re looking for like where’s the measure, it’s when you start to recognize that something is sparking joy to, to borrow her phrase, right? Like when you start to look at your schedule and you say, wow, here’s what my week looks like. And Monday at two is looking like this is going to be great. And Tuesday at 10

Matt: [18:51] that’s going to be rough.

Grant: [18:53] I’m not sure. I really even. I almost wish I wasn’t making that money that way.

Matt: [18:59] Yeah, I think that’s super smart. Like that’s such a self reflective exercise that I think if a lot of business owners and photographers especially focused on that, I mean in the looked at their schedule and just figured out what was given them joy, they would just be able to hone in so much faster on how to make this business last. Because I’m not convinced that many photographers go out of business because they’re broke. I think a lot of photographers go out of business because they’re miserable,

Grant: [19:24] right? Which is so, so then the second half of your question follows there, which is, okay, so now we’re starting to see that the, whatever’s Monday at to a family, uh, uh, uh, senior, uh, you know, a portrait shot, whatever, whatever is happening Monday at two, that’s so exciting to you, right? Then we start to say, how do we make that a bigger part of our business? How do we make, how do we expand that sweet spot, which goes to [inaudible] point about pricing and beginning to look for now. Now you look at it and you say, wow, you know, my average session costs, you know, I’m really wanting to get my number up to 3,500 of this is 800. But then you have to ask yourself, would I love a week of these $800 activities just booked with this, fill my bucket if I was doing a lot of this stuff.

Grant: [20:12] And what does it take to do a lot? Because before, so if you think about the process, you have to find your way here, right? So we do all the little test tolls, we kind of figure out where the, where the sweet spot is. We find that sweet spot. Now we want to kind of switch to a diet of that. Right? And if we switch to a diet of that and we became the expert at that thing, we’re going to get good too. Right? So it’s a lot of things are gonna happen here. It isn’t just like, oh I’m going to choose this. It’s that my workflow is going to improve my process for this is going to get better. My ability to talk about this, my ability to share examples and testimonials and social proof about this particular type of work is going to get really deep and that is how you’re going to get to a large average ticket in the thing. That’s your sweet spot.

Kia: [20:55] Yeah. And I think Matt, you asked a question I thought you were asking like how long does it take to do this? Like how, how much time should you give yourself? And I feel like that this is a cycle that you just go through throughout your life, but actually, you know, as a photographer, I feel like I’ve kind of done that over and over, like, you know, thrown a bunch of things out there to see what I really wanted to do. And then this is the thing, you know, hone down in on it. And then, you know, when I was ready, I’ve thrown a bunch of other things out there. Detroit, you know, like kind of gone through that cycle repeatedly.

Grant: [21:31] Well, yeah, right. I mean, you know, if there, if there’s an actual. If this is an actual living process in you and you’re growing and evolving and you’re not a machine, then it also stands to reason that after two or three years you would look around and go, you know, this is what spark joy. Three years ago when I was just getting started and I throw all that stuff on the wall and some stuff worked. I mean, we, we’d actually questioned if you’re human, if you, you know, some period of time later you’re not going, I don’t know if this is still working for me.

Matt: [22:03] Yeah. And really interesting concept. I mean Kinda, you’ve been doing this for 20 years and are having this conversation with yourself. I’ve been doing it for 10, having this conversation with myself and I guarantee you somebody listening has only been doing it for two years and having this conversation with themselves. So it’s, you know, it’s, it, you know, like, like grant said it as a living organism that is your business and you know, improving yourself. Like yeah, you got to constantly reflect back on that idea.

Kia: [22:28] Okay. So let’s circle this back around them. So your very first question was do you think it’s worth it or, or you said, I’m not going to focus on the Avatar or you know, the ideal client because I don’t think, I think everyone has this idea of this ideal client that’s just someone with enough money to pay our ideal average order. So what are you doing? What, how are we putting this all together? Well,

Grant: [22:54] so I don’t think the Avatar is unnecessary, right? Are the personas and are necessary, but once again, we go back to that schedule. You say, man, Monday at two is Rockin

Kia: [23:03] who? Who’s there?

Grant: [23:05] How do I get? Where’s, where’s the line of those people? Right now we’re starting to say this is bringing joy to me and it turns out I’m really good at this. The, this is bringing joy to someone else as well. So what does it look like to actually bridge that and say, you know, I’m going to turn off the advertising that’s creating the thing Tuesday at 10, that’s going to kill me. I’m not, I’m not, I don’t want, I don’t want any more of that. I’m actually going to double down on this thing that that’s created Monday afternoon because that is what is really, that’s what’s working for me

Grant: [23:37] and who is that? Now we get into the age gender, um, you, you know, what are they resonating with, what advertising is bringing them in? What’s the right channel? Know all of those questions now come out of a really organic spot, right? I’m actually looking for someone that, to Matt’s point, maybe I’ve decided that the person Monday is, is actually a wealthy person that can pay a thousand dollars for a session and um, but, but now I’m like, okay, this is organic. Like when I get that person in front of me, I’m going to have a pitch. I’ve got something to say, you know, as opposed to going, okay, great. Um, you know, it turns out this is what my avatar looks like. Okay, great. Here’s one of those folks. What would you say to them? And you’re like, uh, I have no idea.

Kia: [24:18] Yeah, you’ve got something authentic and real to say to them and something to offer them and an example of what you’ve done before. Yeah. That’s really, it’s, it’s interesting because I think so much of the time, like you were saying at the beginning, we have this idea of what we should do and don’t really know how to get there. And I think our world has become even more and more like that. We see the finished picture on instagram of what a life should look like, but the process to get there is messy and it’s, it’s, you’re doing things you like, you’re doing things you don’t like, you’re testing and you’re trying things and you’re having to really look inside of yourself too.

Grant: [24:56] Yeah. And, and you know, to go back to a concept that matt mentioned earlier, um, you know, conference season and people getting bombarded with all of these ideas. You know, I think I would, I would say two things that I think are important for folks. One is synthesize, you know, not lifting, drop, not cut and paste a synthesize, listened to your, you know, and, and once again, I mean you, you look, look, seek out people that not just people that make a lot of money but also seek out people that are authentic and ways that you can appreciate, right? So be careful who you’re even accepting advice from to begin with. Right? If you’re accepting advice from a schmucks that that seemed too slick or too polished and not enough real like you, they’re not messy like you are, then probably a lot of their, a lot of what they’re saying is not going to be useful for you.

Grant: [25:46] Right? So seek out voices that you resonate with on a, on a bigger plane. Right? And then listen to their business advice, but then the other piece of that is as you listened to that, synthesize it, listened to it and say, wow, okay, so that’s your experience. How does that apply to me? And take the pieces that that you can lift and drop and use those. But then the second piece of advice is look for coaching programs. Look for things that leave room. Here’s your part, right? Here’s the words, here’s the framework, here’s the kind of big idea, and then here’s the place where you’re going to want to use your words and your ideas and connect to your client in a way that resonates with you, right? Because I think good coaches and good, good presenters, good people that are, that are really trying to influence something recognized that giving people an exact script that’s formulaic, especially when it comes to the part about what you actually do is actually going to be a deal killer, you know, because also you’re going to attract

Grant: [26:44] clients. If clients resonate with that, it just says something about them and whether or not they’re really authentic, whether they’re living out of that so you know, they’re going to have an awakening and leave you in the dust.

Kia: [26:53] Yeah. You know, I was thinking too about the process of really figuring out what you love, what you don’t love. Looking at your calendar essentially and figuring out how you feel about it. But I feel like sometimes we tend to not be honest with ourselves. Tend to not really, um, you know, really, really be able to see the truth of it. And I was just thinking about, you know, sessions recently, you know, throughout the last year or two. And my assistants will go, my goodness, who really grouchy, you know, are you, were you mad at them or, you know, that type of thing. And I’m like, no, I totally wasn’t, but now that I’m looking or you know, or my husband, you know, talking to him about something, I think that, you know, letting other people that are in your, you know, that I see what you’re doing and your behavior influences them. I think letting them speak to that, what you love to do, maybe helpful to if you just don’t know, because now that we’re talking about it, I’m thinking that was a sign and I wasn’t really paying attention to it at the time.

Grant: [27:58] That’s, that is great. I, I was, uh, I was listening to some old but still great time coaching stuff from Stephen Covey the other day, you know, and he was talking about how you have to detect

Kia: [28:10] your purpose.

Grant: [28:11] And um, and I think that’s a great way to detect that, right? If I came to you and said, what do you think? Where, where do you see me performing in a way that is the most authentic? The most open hearted, the most engaged where you think I’m adding the most value. I mean that’s just a. that’s a subjective measure, right? But at some level your feedback would be highly important, especially to those people that are kind of on the sidelines watching. Right? They’re like, hey, you know, here’s what I’m seeing. Right. If we looked at last week sessions. Good. Good. Wow. What happened there?

Kia: [28:42] Yeah. You came home. I came home and I griped about something or something, you know, and really talked about it a bunch. I mean that is something that it, it’s. I think I, I don’t know. I, and I may be true for men too, but I think think a lot of times women were like trying to do the right thing and trying to be what people think we should be and not always really listening to ourselves in what you know. I, I don’t know. That’s probably true for men too, right?

Matt: [29:09] No, it’s totally true because it goes back to the second half of why hey conference season is and why it’s so cringe worthy for me is because it’s like you go to conferences and you just, you just know people are lying to themselves and to you about their reality, you know, like they just want to put this like polished clean face. I’m not talking about speakers, I’m talking about even in conversations in the hallway and one of the reasons Chi and you and I have become friends is because that’s not who we are. You know, when we try to go to conferences like Pew and I are know back in the hotel room, just like goofing off and telling stories or whatever. And it’s just like, you don’t have to be. Sorry guys. Kira and I have a blast at conferences just so you know. Um, so it just, people, you know, spend their whole energy like, okay, when I go to a conference, this is what I have to tell everybody that I am. And it’s like, no, you don’t have to, you’re, you’re not that. And you don’t have to be that person, you know, just be authentic to yourself and find happiness.

Grant: [30:12] Well, and I think that’s, um, that’s also to your point about photographers quitting because they’re miserable. You know, what? Nothing makes us more miserable than pretending that the very things that are broken or that we need help with or that we can really ask for some guidance on are great. Right? And then you go home and you think, wow, I just wasted three to five grand, you know, by the time I was out of my business and I spent money and travel and all of this. And I never really said the thing that I need to say.

Matt: [30:41] Yeah. That’s really good. Alright. So on that note, let’s just have a couple of questions. I didn’t prepare you for this grant, but one of the things we always ask our guests is if they have like a, a book or a resource that they think is really good for our listeners. So if you have a book you could recommend, it doesn’t even have to necessarily be about this particular subject, but something that you think would be good for everybody to check out. Yeah, for sure. I have

Grant: [31:07] been digesting all sorts of stuff recently. A have to, you know, go comb my audible account and see, uh, you know, I think that, um, there’s a, there’s a strange book that I recently listened to that’s a little bit older and um, you know, but it, it links to the fact that, that ultimately we’re all salespeople, right? So the, uh, the greatest salesman in the world is, is no doubt a weird read, but in the middle of it are these like sort of a 10 nuggets of wisdom. And I found myself an audible just going back and listening to those chapters over and over again because they, you know, what I appreciate about them is, you know, and I think it goes to the heart of this conversation, right? One of the things that’s challenging about being in a small business by yourself is that you are wearing many hats.

Grant: [31:53] In photography is certainly, there’s an art aspect, there’s a technical aspect, there’s a sales aspect, there’s a run your business aspect, and I think that, you know, it’s like the pricing conversation, right? There is something to be gained just for raising your prices. Wherever you are right now, you could probably raise your prices and get away with it, but there’s some point where you are going to have to bring the rest of those hats along with it. And um, and so the, the idea behind this wisdom and the greatest salesman is, is just the greatest salesman in the world is just that the, you know, the process of selling begins with having a good product. It begins with being a good product. It begins with being a good person. And, um, and if you are really kind of grounding in those ideas, uh, you know, it gets easier to market.

Grant: [32:42] One of the, one of the rules of marketing is get a better reality. It’s easier to market a better thing. And so if the thing that you’re marketing is you, then the first place to begin is to be better yourself. And as you grow and you’re more tuned into insensitive to the places that you’re strong, the places that you’re weak, the places that you have risk, the places that your business could go off the rails and then begin to take action to fix those places. Then you know, the easier it is to go out and market something because it’s true, it’s whole, it’s real, it’s authentic. And, and those are the things, if you really think about our world, fundamentally, that’s what we’re actually looking for. People are looking for someone to take their picture that sees them. And that’s going to begin with seeing yourself.

Kia: [33:32] Yeah, that’s really good. You and I were talking about how sometimes it’s really hard to promote things the other day and not, not specifically anything but, but I, I was just saying like, the portraits are so easy for me to promote because I, I know myself and I know how much I value them. I value them from having pictures of my family, my own kids. But I also the desperately sad if, uh, if I don’t get to photograph something for a family because I, I know how important it is, I care so much about it and that goes back to me knowing myself. So that’s really. That’s good.

Matt: [34:14] Yeah. That’s awesome. Okay. So last part grant, because let you go. Because I guys grant, we have to let grant go eventually because he has a dentist appointment. I know, trust me, trust me. I’d much rather stay here and this is, this is way more fun than what I’m about to go do. We’re going to let you go. But, um, any, any, uh, additional pardon guidance that you’d want to give people? I mean, that last little quote you gave was amazing, but any other parting guidance as well as, um, any ways that people can connect with you if they’re interested in having a conversation with you? Yeah, for sure. I think, um,

Grant: [34:45] well maybe, you know, like we’ve, there’s all these arguments that we have in society, right? Like sacred versus secular, you know, like there’s actually a part of our life that would be outside of the realm of something that is transcendent, you know, and I think I think business and personal, especially in a small businesses is another one of those sort of dividing lines in my mind. And so, um, know I think this whole process gets a lot more fun and how you really, you really kind of went there, which I appreciated it. This process we’ve talked about today is really the process of being a human and discovering what works for you in relationships and parenting and leadership and in your community. You know, it’s life is all connected. There’s there, there aren’t these, there aren’t these broad things like I’m one person here and one person somewhere else.

Grant: [35:34] I’m just one person. And, and so, you know, I think it’s fun if you look at your business as a canvas to play with an experience, um, the creativity and the gifts that you have and find ways to give those gifts out. And, and obviously I mean money and, and you know, there’s all kinds of stuff that cuts into that as a pure experiment, right? But if your aim is to say, wow, I’m trying to find my way through the world and I’m trying to figure out who needs my help while I’m here and I’m trying to figure out who can help me. And um, you know, why, why can’t every day be this great exchange that has, that has energetic exchange, that has financial exchange, it has value exchange that, you know, there’s a lot more going on here than, than just some sort of like, you know, get rich quick or slow depending on how good you are of, you know, game.

Grant: [36:25] And uh, and so I think I would just embrace that. I would encourage people to look at this and say, man, you know, um, some of the days I’m going to find out I’m bad at photography and some of the days I’m going to find somewhere that I’m, I’m bad as a human and I’m, and I need to approach both of those the same way I would reach out and get technical assistance, right? If I realized that I didn’t know what to do with light or lenses or you know, how to work with the people that I, that I need to work with or how to sell things or how to be a better person. I would read a book or I would watch a video or I would reach out to somebody that I know and I would just, I would encourage us to do that for everything.

Grant: [36:58] The great exchange. Yeah. Um, you know, and, and, and, and here’s the thing. I mean, we’re, we love this, right? When this works, right? When you think about someone leaving your, your business right there, they’re walking out the door. They’ve done the whole process. You’ve captured something that is unique and rare. And you know, it just created a moment for them and they’ve experienced in your presence a moment, maybe they’ve been something or they’ve exposed something that they don’t, they don’t know even how they got there and um, and, and they’re leaving and they’ve given you the check and you’ve given them the product and at, I mean, like if you just hold that moment right there, thrilled. You’re thrilled. There’s laughter, there’s smiles, there’s this sense of comradery. That’s what we’re going for here, right? Is just that fundamental exchange. And there’s a billion moving parts in it, but let’s not lose that. That’s what we’re looking for in the process of making one of those areas better.

Matt: [37:56] That’s super awesome. All right, so if somebody wants to continue this conversation with you, this, or another conversation with you, how, how has the best for them to reach out to you?

Grant: [38:05] Drop. Drop me an email at grant, at grant Andrew Dot net. Right? And it’s, it’s

Matt: [38:10] singular, not plural, your last name, right?

Grant: [38:12] Unless there’s more than one of us. Um, so granted grant Andrew Dot net, you know, Andy Grant and Canada, uh, if that guy would give up grant Andrew Dot com, I would really appreciate that. But for the moment we’re on grant Andrew Dot net, so yeah, grant a grant, Andrew Dot net. Uh, and uh, yeah, I’d love to love to have a chat about anything that’s on your mind.

Matt: [38:31] Awesome. Well if the grant, thanks for being on here. Um, I, that we can have you back in the future because I mean what you’re helping me and allison do in our business has been awesome and being able to meet us right where we are and it’s been huge what you’ve done to help us. So hopefully we can have you back on it as you and I have some really interesting conversations and I, I’ll probably stop you at on the run side. What? We’ll finish this one. Let’s finish this on the podcast, but let’s, let’s do that for sure. So thanks for being on here. I really appreciate it. And everybody give us Kyla and some feedback and reach out to grant if he resonated with what he said and he thinks you think that he can help you and we’ll see you guys next week.

Speaker 2: [39:10] Thank you for listening to from nothing to profit a photographer’s podcast with Matt and Kaiya. Be sure to subscribe for more business strategy and ideas to help you create the profitable and successful business you’ve always wanted. See you on the next episode of from nothing to profit.