Shownotes
- What the Second Amendment actually says and the context in which it was originally written.
- Why new gun control laws are so hard to get passed in America and abroad.
- If the Bible and Jesus ever advocate for either lethal self-defense or passivity.
- How the gospel speaks into this issue and how we can help today.
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Thanks so much for joining us again this week. Have some feedback you’d like to share? Join us on Facebook and take part in the discussion! If you enjoyed this episode, please share it using the social media buttons you see at the top of this page or right below. Also, please subscribe and leave an honest review for The Everyday Disciple Podcast on Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen. Ratings and reviews are extremely helpful and greatly appreciated! They do matter in the rankings of the show, and we read each and every one of them. Links and Resources Mentioned in This Episode: Coaching with Caesar and Tina in discipleship and missional living. Discipleship and Missional Resources Missio Publishing In light of today’s topics, you might find these posts and videos helpful: What is the Difference Between Common Grace and Common Good?
Transcripts
One of today's biggest and most vigorously debated hot button issues is gun control.
Caesar Kalinowski:And on one level, the debate centers on a classic religious and theological divide.
Caesar Kalinowski:There are those who argue that as humans, we should not try to replace God's role with our own efforts to restore this world, and others who argue that Christians have a responsibility to defend the God given gift of life and all human dignity.
Caesar Kalinowski:But on a different level, this argument spotlights the current realities of our American religious and political life.
Caesar Kalinowski:A statistics show, Americans of all persuasions and political affiliations have become increasingly opposed to more gun control laws, despite the growing number of mass shootings that have targeted schools, churches, and synagogues, as well as movie theaters and even military bases.
Heath Hollensbe:Welcome to the Everyday Disciple Podcast, where you'll learn how to live with greater intentionality and an integrated faith community.
Heath Hollensbe:That naturally fits into every area of life.
Heath Hollensbe:In other words, discipleship as a lifestyle.
Heath Hollensbe:This is the stuff your parents, pastors and seminary professors probably forgot to tell you.
Heath Hollensbe:And now here's your host, Cesar Kalinowski.
Caesar Kalinowski:Hey, Heath.
Caesar Kalinowski:Good to be with you, man.
Caesar Kalinowski:How you feeling?
Caesar Kalinowski:Are you, are you getting over the super funk that hit the family?
Heath Hollensbe:You know, barely.
Heath Hollensbe:It's been at, five of the six of us have been down over the last five days or so.
Heath Hollensbe:So two days I've been, oh, piled up in the bedroom talking to you, man.
Caesar Kalinowski:I could feel the pain.
Caesar Kalinowski:Uh, Yikes.
Caesar Kalinowski:Been there and I'm so sorry, man.
Heath Hollensbe:It's, it's the worst when your kids have it.
Caesar Kalinowski:It is.
Caesar Kalinowski:It is the worst.
Caesar Kalinowski:You know, as bad as you feel, you go like, oh my gosh.
Caesar Kalinowski:And I'm an adult and they're pro.
Caesar Kalinowski:I'm process it.
Caesar Kalinowski:Look at my baby girl.
Heath Hollensbe:Hey, we got a special guest today.
Heath Hollensbe:This is actually, we've kind of started this show off a little bit more somber because just the, the general topic of today's show is a fairly dark tone.
Heath Hollensbe:You know?
Caesar Kalinowski:It is.
Caesar Kalinowski:And it's not a big laugh fest.
Caesar Kalinowski:There's no, there's no laughs in this episode at all.
Caesar Kalinowski:And, uh, like you said, we do kind of have a very special guest, uh, someone who I thought was super appropriate to have on just because of his life experience, legal experience, and faith experience.
Caesar Kalinowski:So why don't we just jump right into it?
Caesar Kalinowski:And, uh, and I, and I have a conversation that we're going to kind of just like flow right into, and then we'll come on back and, uh, we'll do the big three.
Caesar Kalinowski:Awesome.
Caesar Kalinowski:Sounds great.
Caesar Kalinowski:Okay.
Caesar Kalinowski:So this is a pretty unique and fun episode for me to do because our special guest on the show today is my own son, Caesar.
Caesar Kalinowski:Caesar.
Caesar Kalinowski:You hear me talking about Team K a lot, and I've always mentioned all my kids, Caesar is Caesar 4, I'm the 3rd Caesar in our family, and, uh, we now have Caesar 5, his son, so, anyway, the reason I wanted to have my son on to talk about guns, and the 2nd amendment, and gun control, and how the Bible, and our faith, And the gospel speaks into that is that my son is not only a strong believer, but he also served 10 years in the Marines, and he is an attorney.
Caesar Kalinowski:And um, he also is kind of got a bent towards understanding the constitution, constitutional law, first amendment work, second amendment understandings.
Caesar Kalinowski:And so I felt like he had not only great perspective, but he had the right to have a strong opinion.
Caesar Kalinowski:Today's episode, we're not going to try to solve gun violence.
Caesar Kalinowski:We're not going to try to make the big suggestions on here's how we pass all kinds of new gun control laws.
Caesar Kalinowski:Trying to frame the discussion in an understandable way.
Caesar Kalinowski:And we're going to be in different slots here because my son's going to really give us some insight into, okay, what are the laws that we now live under?
Caesar Kalinowski:And to even understand them clearly, I think, is a definite starting point.
Caesar Kalinowski:We have to have that as an understanding.
Caesar Kalinowski:Because much of the debate is on Right now, rages around misunderstanding of even what the law states, what the rights the government does have to give us or not give us.
Caesar Kalinowski:We're going to talk about alienable rights.
Caesar Kalinowski:We're going to talk about our God given rights as image bearers.
Caesar Kalinowski:All those things.
Caesar Kalinowski:But anyway, um, I am really excited to have him on.
Caesar Kalinowski:We're not going to agree on everything.
Caesar Kalinowski:We're going to try to stay, keep this clear.
Caesar Kalinowski:And we're going to try to keep it to our normal time, 20, 25, 30 minutes or so.
Caesar Kalinowski:But anyway, Caesar, I am so glad to have you on, son.
Caesar Kalinowski:Thanks, dad.
Caesar Kalinowski:Thanks for having me on.
Caesar Kalinowski:This is, uh, a topic that might, could end up being the last show.
Caesar Kalinowski:Because it is kind of one of those hot button things.
Caesar Kalinowski:And, uh, not everybody's going to agree with where we go or, you know, all of our premises, but we are going to try to frame this.
Caesar Kalinowski:Okay, so we live in a nation that has a constitution, and within that constitution there's a second amendment that specifically, more specifically, addresses what we would say is guns, but really, uh, it's, it's the right to bear arms and all that.
Caesar Kalinowski:I'm going to, in fact, read this as a starting point.
Caesar Kalinowski:Um, the U.
Caesar Kalinowski:S.
Caesar Kalinowski:Constitution reads in the second amendment, A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, The right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.
Caesar Kalinowski:So what's going on with that second amendment right away?
Caesar Kalinowski:Who's this speaking to?
Caesar Kalinowski:Is this speaking to people or is this speaking to the government?
Caesar Kalinowski:Who's this a warning against or setting up
Caesar Kalinowski:Caesar Kalinowski IV: barriers?
Caesar Kalinowski:Yeah, so there's a couple understandings.
Caesar Kalinowski:First is, you know, kind of the context in which the Constitution was written and understanding how they viewed rights and how they understand and understood the document that they were writing.
Caesar Kalinowski:And so a lot of people now believe that the Constitution is kind of reflecting this belief by the founders that God gave man ... inalienable rights, and that those couldn't be taken away by a king, and only we, the people, could collectively, uh, kind of create a government and take away some of our rights.
Caesar Kalinowski:So they were writing that document, uh, as an idea that we're going to restrict the government's right that we're creating.
Caesar Kalinowski:We're going to restrict their, restrict the government's right that we're creating over the people.
Caesar Kalinowski:And so the second amendment is really written to the government saying Uh, because we need a militia and because the people have an inalienable right to a free state to not be, you know, ruled over under tyranny, then the right to bear arms can't be infringed by the
Caesar Kalinowski:government.
Caesar Kalinowski:Okay, so that's, that's, that's actually the government setting up protections against the government overreach to take away what they believe was a human right to protect oneself, and also necessary for this republic that was being set up, and in the larger context, the constitution that would govern that republic, uh, what it would take to stay a free state.
Caesar Kalinowski:Caesar Kalinowski IV: Absolutely.
Caesar Kalinowski:I mean, we always forget, we think about the, the revolution and that was the big fight, which is true, but not that much longer, uh, after only about 20 years after the constitution was ratified by all the states, we had the war of 1812 where Britain pretty much took a second bite at the apple and they thought, well, this is going to be, you know, before America gets too big, this is going to be our last chance to take it back over.
Caesar Kalinowski:So it was very much.
Caesar Kalinowski:Uh, at the time, it was, it was the, to protect the state, to protect the republic, people needed to bear arms and had to answer that
Caesar Kalinowski:call.
Caesar Kalinowski:Ok, so, now this is supposedly protecting rights, now are these rights ones that you believe personally, um, are God given rights to protection, but the government's trying to maintain those rights?
Caesar Kalinowski:Or are these rights that the, the, the framers of our Constitution and the Second Amendment were trying to say, these are rights that the citizenry, we the people, are going to need to have?
Caesar Kalinowski:Caesar Kalinowski IV: Yes, it's tough, and I think it gets and we've talked about this in the past, but I think it gets to the point of whether or not a man inherently has a natural right and that his body and his kind of his own being, whether it's because we bear the image of God or whether because just if you're a humanist, You would say whether just because you are a being, because you have existence, that you naturally have a right to certain things.
Caesar Kalinowski:Uh, they would say you naturally have a right not to be a slave.
Caesar Kalinowski:You get to use your body however you want to.
Caesar Kalinowski:You get to use your work however you want to.
Caesar Kalinowski:You have a natural right to move and travel, to speak.
Caesar Kalinowski:Now, it doesn't necessarily mean you...
Caesar Kalinowski:No consequences or otherwise, but you have those rights by virtue of having a body and by virtue of being created.
Caesar Kalinowski:Now, some people would say that you don't inherently have any rights, and that there's nothing that you inherently have the right to do, and those people generally are in favor of
Caesar Kalinowski:bigger government.
Caesar Kalinowski:Yeah, and it's interesting because this word rights, I mean, that's a debatable, right?
Caesar Kalinowski:Like, is it an entitlement?
Caesar Kalinowski:Is it, uh, is it, you know, endowed by God just in the very nature of Him being a sovereign creator, us being created in His image, the way He set up the world to work, the consequences of when things don't go in the way that God wills it and has set it up to work.
Caesar Kalinowski:Uh, is there a difference between rights?
Caesar Kalinowski:and, uh, something that we expect or feel like we, I don't know.
Caesar Kalinowski:It gets thick, right?
Caesar Kalinowski:I mean, this is complex stuff to even get to the thing behind the thing.
Caesar Kalinowski:Well, it's tough because
Caesar Kalinowski:Caesar Kalinowski IV: then you also mix in this idea of a license, which is a right to something that can't be revoked from you.
Caesar Kalinowski:It can't be taken away.
Caesar Kalinowski:So the right of people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.
Caesar Kalinowski:But there's a lot of things that aren't necessarily a right.
Caesar Kalinowski:We might.
Caesar Kalinowski:Think of them that way.
Caesar Kalinowski:We've got a right to drive around.
Caesar Kalinowski:We have a right to go to the grocery store, have a car license.
Caesar Kalinowski:Those aren't necessarily rights.
Caesar Kalinowski:They're in fact licenses.
Caesar Kalinowski:And so we, the people, as the sovereigns, having set up a government, say, no, we get to regulate these things about people.
Caesar Kalinowski:And here's kind of the way that we can regulate.
Caesar Kalinowski:So you, so you don't see rights like actual rights as conditional at all.
Caesar Kalinowski:Caesar Kalinowski IV: Generally speaking, no, I would say a right, It is by virtue of that word, by virtue of that concept, that no one can take it from you.
Caesar Kalinowski:If someone could take it from you, you would not
Caesar Kalinowski:have a right to it.
Caesar Kalinowski:Gotcha.
Caesar Kalinowski:So, in my understanding then, you know, of Scripture and God's sovereignty, is that He alone makes and holds and, or I guess would have the authority to change the rights.
Caesar Kalinowski:Except that we know from scripture that God's the same forever, right?
Caesar Kalinowski:I would
Caesar Kalinowski:Caesar Kalinowski IV: agree with that.
Caesar Kalinowski:I'd say, for me, and this is again an aside from a, you know, whether the government has the right or we've granted the government the right.
Caesar Kalinowski:To take rights over us, all those things that God alone is the sovereign can grant, you know, it's kind of like truth.
Caesar Kalinowski:God alone can, is the, you know, the source of all truth and God alone is the grantor of all rights.
Caesar Kalinowski:So in certain ways the government, you know, no government can exercise any authority that is not granted through God, just by virtue of existence.
Caesar Kalinowski:The Bible says as much.
Caesar Kalinowski:This is all, in fact, and that ticks off a lot of people, that in fact all governments fall under God's sovereign rule.
Caesar Kalinowski:So go ahead and obey them, you know, because you're actually submitting to God.
Caesar Kalinowski:Which is,
Caesar Kalinowski:Caesar Kalinowski IV: but it's tough, you know, when you look at the concept of a dictatorship or otherwise.
Caesar Kalinowski:I know.
Caesar Kalinowski:What are you, do we, you know, just because that power and all the power of existence flows from God doesn't mean that necessarily God blesses the actions of every government.
Caesar Kalinowski:or of
Caesar Kalinowski:every dictator.
Caesar Kalinowski:Or that every government that God allows to act as, you know, evil dictators, like you said, that he's blessing it, but also that there's still consequences that happen because of that, and that's not God's plan.
Caesar Kalinowski:Now that gets into also why we need a savior.
Caesar Kalinowski:Okay, so this really helps me, and this is part of why I wanted to have you specifically.
Caesar Kalinowski:Help me think through this and talk through this because I, we were talking a little earlier and I was trying to say like, okay, well, we have a right to drive a car in this country, but it comes with certain rules and you got, you get to, you have to be tested and you have to prove competency and that you're not going to hurt others.
Caesar Kalinowski:But you're saying, no, that's a license.
Caesar Kalinowski:That's something that the, the government had, the government has chosen to license you sort of the right to have, and it can be revoked therefore, because it's manmade.
Caesar Kalinowski:Right.
Caesar Kalinowski:And under the
Caesar Kalinowski:Caesar Kalinowski IV: constitution, you don't have a right.
Caesar Kalinowski:There's not a constitutional right to, let's say, drive a car.
Caesar Kalinowski:Now there's a constitutional right to travel, meaning the government can't stop you from going one place to another, but there's not a constitutional right to drive a car.
Caesar Kalinowski:There is, however, a constitutional right to keep
Caesar Kalinowski:and bear arms.
Caesar Kalinowski:Now, just for a second, back to this idea of rights are actually God granted, and therefore not given away.
Caesar Kalinowski:It seems to me, in my understanding of Scripture, and throughout the whole story of God, you know, more of a biblical theologist in my own understanding of life, is I see that God has, by the very nature of that He's created us in His image to be like Him, not to be Him, and then have the ability to give and take rights away, but he's given us this, this image to bear, but he also, right away we see in the Garden of Eden, he shares, he, he gives his authority, he shares his authority.
Caesar Kalinowski:Now, that's even greater fulfilled, uh, in the New Covenant when, when Jesus says, all authority on earth and heaven has been given to me, and now I'm giving it to you, we're, I'm sharing this because we're now one.
Caesar Kalinowski:Um, so, um, now where I'm going with this is, Um, it's, it all has always blown my mind that in, you know, Adam and Eve are in the garden, they're hanging out with God, they're in charge of everything, they can eat everything, God warns them, but there's this one tree, don't eat it, it'll kill you, it's the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, like when you start to basically try to determine what's right and what's wrong, that's gonna kill you.
Caesar Kalinowski:And yet, he does not remove the tree, he does not remove their ability or their right to choose.
Caesar Kalinowski:And we jump just a little ahead in Genesis and we see Cain and Abel, and God is warning again, just like he warned Adam and Eve, this will kill you.
Caesar Kalinowski:He's warning Cain, listen, Um, evil is crouching.
Caesar Kalinowski:It's waiting to take a hold of you and destroy you.
Caesar Kalinowski:You must bring it under control or it will destroy you.
Caesar Kalinowski:And, well, we know Cain goes out and kills his brother Abel.
Caesar Kalinowski:God knew he was going to do that.
Caesar Kalinowski:He told him, he warned him, and yet he never removed his even ability to go out and murder.
Caesar Kalinowski:It's, it's, It's mind blowing to me how deep and intrinsic God has actually given us and then stuck to the rights he has, you know, is the word imbued, you know, endowed us with.
Caesar Kalinowski:As his image bears,
Caesar Kalinowski:Caesar Kalinowski IV: even when he knows absolutely that we're going to misuse those rights,
Caesar Kalinowski:right from the get go of the story,
Caesar Kalinowski:Caesar Kalinowski IV: absolutely knew.
Caesar Kalinowski:But when he granted, he didn't tell Adam, listen, if this is bad, it's going to kill people.
Caesar Kalinowski:So you need to make sure you doesn't do it and you watch over her and you never, you know, take away that right from her.
Caesar Kalinowski:Yeah, never gives that power over Adam and never gives and never allows himself to exercise that power, which in its own way.
Caesar Kalinowski:There's obviously an enormous grant of love, uh, that he would, he would say, I know you'll use this for evil, I know that you're not going to use this in a way that I would choose for you.
Caesar Kalinowski:Right.
Caesar Kalinowski:And it's going to actually make your life harder.
Caesar Kalinowski:But you get to
Caesar Kalinowski:make that choice.
Caesar Kalinowski:And there's crazy consequences.
Caesar Kalinowski:Now the scandal, the crosses, God says, I know, I know what the consequences are, and I'm even going to come and take those upon myself, so, so ultimately you won't have to.
Caesar Kalinowski:It's crazy.
Caesar Kalinowski:Okay, now, um, let's, let's um, let's talk about why, I know you, you, having been a Marine, and being very trained with firearms.
Caesar Kalinowski:We've had talks about this since you were a teenager, really, when you first entered the Corps.
Caesar Kalinowski:Um, I'm not, I'm not big into guns.
Caesar Kalinowski:I don't think that they, the gun itself is inherently evil.
Caesar Kalinowski:Um, I don't think that, uh, I have any rights to tell who, who should and who shouldn't own a gun.
Caesar Kalinowski:You're much more pro, is that a fair way to say it?
Caesar Kalinowski:Pro?
Caesar Kalinowski:Yeah, I would say absolutely.
Caesar Kalinowski:Gun ownership and the, and, and, The, the rights of self-protection and if you want to use a stick, a knife, or a gun or a club or a cannon or whatever we were talking about earlier, people used to own cannons, but now in this government, they don't really let you.
Caesar Kalinowski:So there, there is, there is some gun control that exists today, even under the Second Amendment.
Caesar Kalinowski:Is that true?
Caesar Kalinowski:Absolutely.
Caesar Kalinowski:Caesar Kalinowski IV: So they.
Caesar Kalinowski:So, uh, when the Supreme Court is the final arbiter of what the Constitution means, kind of decided, uh, and this was a case back in 2007 called Heller Which was a fairly, uh, influential or kind of landmark case because it was the first time the Supreme Court definitively said that there's an individual right to bear arms.
Caesar Kalinowski:When was this?
Caesar Kalinowski:It's in
Caesar Kalinowski:2007.
Caesar Kalinowski:Isn't that mind blowing?
Caesar Kalinowski:Listen, are you listening to this?
Caesar Kalinowski:In 2007, this just changed.
Caesar Kalinowski:Caesar Kalinowski IV: I think many of your listeners may be more informed about the law than you.
Caesar Kalinowski:Caesar.
Caesar Kalinowski:Probably that would not surprise me, but
Caesar Kalinowski:Caesar Kalinowski IV: yeah, so you live in the law.
Caesar Kalinowski:It was the very first time.
Caesar Kalinowski:No, I didn't know about it either.
Caesar Kalinowski:It was the very first time it said, no, you absolutely have an individual right.
Caesar Kalinowski:So if you want to have a gun in your home, so the Supreme Court will never decide more than it needs to.
Caesar Kalinowski:So it was, it was then confined to a home and later they had to refine it down to ammunition and say, well, you can't remove ammunition because obviously that's necessary.
Caesar Kalinowski:Component of a gun, but yeah, it's not that it's not that long ago.
Caesar Kalinowski:Now some people would say is because for so long No American would have understood that you couldn't own a gun because for over a century and a half Pretty much every American home had one, whether it was on the frontier, or otherwise, it was just a natural part of life, was gun
Caesar Kalinowski:ownership in 2007 it changed, but what about the frontier and everybody having, you know, a rifle for hunting?
Caesar Kalinowski:Yeah, it
Caesar Kalinowski:Caesar Kalinowski IV: was absolutely legal, and even in the places where they would have restrictions, it was generally very, Uh, time, location, specific, i.
Caesar Kalinowski:e.
Caesar Kalinowski:in the drinking quarter of a town, you had to turn in your guns, and it's, you know, that's,
Caesar Kalinowski:uh, reasonable, so.
Caesar Kalinowski:Still kind of that way in most states.
Caesar Kalinowski:So the Supreme Court
Caesar Kalinowski:Caesar Kalinowski IV: has said that there is a reasonable restriction on generally the type of guns you can own, and, or the type of weapons, and potentially the caliber, or, you know, the, uh, you can't have explosives, or you have to have a license for certain things, that type of thing.
Caesar Kalinowski:So, um, would you personally, Think that we need more laws on the books to restrict gun ownership or not.
Caesar Kalinowski:You get to be you.
Caesar Kalinowski:In,
Caesar Kalinowski:Caesar Kalinowski IV: in what state?
Caesar Kalinowski:Under the federal state government?
Caesar Kalinowski:Under the state government?
Caesar Kalinowski:You know, that's the, here's the, here's the difficulty, and I know, me and my dad, why isn't Why isn't it easier to just pass some sort of reasonable gun regulation?
Caesar Kalinowski:And the answer is, what's reasonable?
Caesar Kalinowski:What's objectively reasonable?
Caesar Kalinowski:What's reasonable for me to force on you?
Caesar Kalinowski:Who's got the knowledge of good and evil, right and wrong for everybody, right?
Caesar Kalinowski:Can I
Caesar Kalinowski:Caesar Kalinowski IV: tell you from my cushy neighborhood where I have no...
Caesar Kalinowski:You know problems whatsoever and the police show up right away and i don't fear the police that you guy in a terrible neighborhood are you a woman who lives by herself in a terrible
Caesar Kalinowski:neighborhood or another ethnicity that doesn't have that same trust of the law enforcement yeah and
Caesar Kalinowski:Caesar Kalinowski IV: and when you call the police they maybe don't show up that you absolutely do not have a right No, I don't think the government should be in that business.
Caesar Kalinowski:And I think it's just, we're too disparate.
Caesar Kalinowski:We're, we're a nation that has so many different people in so many different situations that I would never, and I don't think the constitution would support removing that right just because we're worried about potentially how some people could abuse it.
Caesar Kalinowski:You and I, before we got started recording today, we were talking a little bit about is there, is, you know, where's the line of self defense?
Caesar Kalinowski:and the ability to, you know, or I guess the ability to take a life.
Caesar Kalinowski:Where, where, where does that line get drawn and who gets to decide where that line is?
Caesar Kalinowski:Meaning, Like, for me, we were talking about, you know, I don't own a gun, um, but if someone broke into my house and I really honestly believe they were going to try to kill me or my wife or you guys, the kids, um, I would not want to kill somebody, um, but if I had, if that came to that, I probably would, you know, I probably would try to do that.
Caesar Kalinowski:Now, I don't own a gun, so I wouldn't be able to do it that way.
Caesar Kalinowski:Um, I would hope that I would choose to, um, You know, try to maybe knock somebody out or knock them in the head and I don't know, you know, I don't think in the moment I would probably be righteous enough.
Caesar Kalinowski:aultruistic enough.
Caesar Kalinowski:I don't know all enough whatever you want to say to say no I am right now in the moment gonna choose to lay my life down But I will talk about this again in a moment I would I would wish and hope that I might feel that way and for and we'll get back into it in a bit Real quick.
Caesar Kalinowski:Let's talk a little about does the Bible And, and I like to look at Jesus, you know, as the exclamation point, His life, death, and resurrection, the whole thing, Old Testament and New, Old Covenant and New.
Caesar Kalinowski:Does the Bible, what does the Bible say about self defense?
Caesar Kalinowski:and Bearing Arms.
Caesar Kalinowski:What's your thoughts on that?
Caesar Kalinowski:Yeah, so
Caesar Kalinowski:Caesar Kalinowski IV: I think we see a pretty clear indication, at least Old Testament, Pre Covenant, that Pre New Covenant.
Caesar Kalinowski:Pre New Covenant, rather, yeah, that God, you know, allowed, armed Israel, gave them favor on the battlefields.
Caesar Kalinowski:There's a lot of Psalms and verses.
Caesar Kalinowski:In Exodus 22, it talks about, you know, if a thief is breaking in and is struck on the head so that he dies, there will be no blood guilt for the person that does it.
Caesar Kalinowski:So, I think we see some...
Caesar Kalinowski:instances.
Caesar Kalinowski:And I think it makes sense in the same way that God didn't restrict Cain's ability to harm someone for no good, for literally to murder them.
Caesar Kalinowski:Yeah.
Caesar Kalinowski:He doesn't restrict people or man's ability to protect themselves and doesn't, you know, tell the government.
Caesar Kalinowski:Of, you know, the people of Israel to do so either now when you get into New Covenant, well that's obviously a lot harder
Caesar Kalinowski:It, it is, and, and I'll I'll say this, that, that a lot of people, they point to, uh, well, either Luke 22 or I think it's Matthew 25 or six, uh, right after Jesus is praying in the garden and it's, it's, um, right before he's going to be arrested and taken off for crucifixion, uh, he says to the disciples, he says, do you, do you remember when I sent you off?
Caesar Kalinowski:And two by two, and I told you to take, you know, take no, no purse or bag with you.
Caesar Kalinowski:Did you lack anything?
Caesar Kalinowski:And he said, no, we didn't.
Caesar Kalinowski:And he says, now I tell you, if you have a purse, buy a sword.
Caesar Kalinowski:And, and, and one of the disciples says, well, we have two swords.
Caesar Kalinowski:And he goes, that'll be enough.
Caesar Kalinowski:And so some people quote that.
Caesar Kalinowski:Uh, those verses in the gospels are saying, see, Jesus was promoting, you know, defend yourself here.
Caesar Kalinowski:But then, just not too many verses ahead, you can see where Peter picks up a sword, lops off one of the guard's ears, centurion's ears, and Jesus puts his ear back on and says, listen, if you live this way, if you live by the sword, then you're going to die by the sword.
Caesar Kalinowski:And so it's like, wow, we have, we have Seemingly the two sides of the coin here, and I think this does speak to this inalienable right that God does not do violence to our will Does not do violence to the choice that he's given us as image bearers is to say listen, you can protect yourself So you you're gonna feel the need to have a sword tonight because this is going down and this is going down hard But then what Peter uses he's like, let me just warn you if you choose to live that way You might also die that way.
Caesar Kalinowski:That's personally kind of how I feel about why I don't own guns.
Caesar Kalinowski:Cause I don't know that it wouldn't be taken from me and I'd be killed with it.
Caesar Kalinowski:And if I didn't have it, I might just get knocked over the head and have my stuff stolen.
Caesar Kalinowski:I don't know.
Caesar Kalinowski:I think it is a picture.
Caesar Kalinowski:It is a picture of the gospel going on there in that passage with Jesus and, um, there are plenty of Old Testament, certainly plenty of passages that seem to support the fact that we get to protect our property, protect each other.
Caesar Kalinowski:There's endless verses about protecting the defenseless, defending the defenseless, right?
Caesar Kalinowski:and caring for those, caring for your own family, who would not do that?
Caesar Kalinowski:Wow, that's the worst, if you wouldn't even care for your own family.
Caesar Kalinowski:Certainly, it's not just about like, hey, if they're hungry, you should feed them.
Caesar Kalinowski:Well, obviously, you would defend them if someone was going to take their life, way more valuable than hunger.
Caesar Kalinowski:And so, I think, I think we do see that, that God's not, there's not, there's not a mandate for passivity, right?
Caesar Kalinowski:I mean,
Caesar Kalinowski:Caesar Kalinowski IV: it doesn't seem to be one, and whether it's God recognizes the nature of man that he's created, and he just knows that, we're, you know, we're going to be defiant.
Caesar Kalinowski:That's kind of from our birth.
Caesar Kalinowski:That's how we were.
Caesar Kalinowski:And so he allows us to be, and just knowing one day that when there's reconciliation, that all of that will change and that we won't have to be defiant that way.
Caesar Kalinowski:Um, but it doesn't make it any easier when we obviously see things in the news and we hear about mass shootings and people being killed.
Caesar Kalinowski:And emotionally, we, when we want to love other people and see people loved well, It makes, it does, it does make people hurt and makes people feel like we've got to do something.
Caesar Kalinowski:So let's take the thing away that caused it.
Caesar Kalinowski:Now, there is clearly those who say guns don't kill people, people kill people.
Caesar Kalinowski:And it's, it's a heart issue and the only hope we have is Christ.
Caesar Kalinowski:And that's hard to argue with on a certain level, right?
Caesar Kalinowski:Caesar Kalinowski IV: Oh, I think that's absolutely true.
Caesar Kalinowski:I mean, there, listen, if, if it were not guns, it would be something else.
Caesar Kalinowski:We were a very...
Caesar Kalinowski:For good and for bad, we're a hardworking, industrious nation.
Caesar Kalinowski:We will, I absolutely believe that if poof tomorrow there were no guns, that we would not see the end of mass murders, we would just see it in a different way.
Caesar Kalinowski:I think it's a sad part of our culture and our nation and just where we're at, but I think it's, it is just a truth.
Caesar Kalinowski:You were telling me earlier, I was asking you like, why do you think we have seen Like, and we don't have a whole lot of time to get into this, but I found it fascinating what has led to the rise of, of, of violence and even particularly gun ownership and violence over the last, well, you know, couple hundred years this country's existed, but really most of it in the last 70, a hundred years, what, like, what are, you were giving me some crazy things that you've researched and believe have Really fed into this growing violence, you know, and use of guns by the citizenry, not in ways that are just self defense.
Caesar Kalinowski:Yeah,
Caesar Kalinowski:Caesar Kalinowski IV: so there's, I mean, there's a ton of reasons and industrialization and you know, our manufacturing ability to make guns cheap has obviously put more guns in people's hands.
Caesar Kalinowski:Now again, that doesn't necessarily mean for good or for bad.
Caesar Kalinowski:It's just a simple fact is more people have guns and there
Caesar Kalinowski:are more people.
Caesar Kalinowski:You were saying it used to be that like a family would own a gun.
Caesar Kalinowski:And, but that was one of the most expensive
Caesar Kalinowski:Caesar Kalinowski IV: possessions.
Caesar Kalinowski:Yeah, it was probably the Patriarchs, and it was one of the most expensive.
Caesar Kalinowski:Maybe a couple guns if you're on the frontier, but it wasn't, uh, they didn't have the access to it and the ability to buy it in quantity.
Caesar Kalinowski:We just didn't have the same.
Caesar Kalinowski:So that's part of it.
Caesar Kalinowski:So then you've got the rise of kind of criminality in the 1930s, and a lot of people will say it could be lead, it could
Caesar Kalinowski:be.
Caesar Kalinowski:That was Fan saying that lead poisoning and the propensity of lead based products has been traced pretty definitively.
Caesar Kalinowski:to the rise of criminality for decades.
Caesar Kalinowski:Lots
Caesar Kalinowski:Caesar Kalinowski IV: of, uh, kind of problems with mental health issues and other health issues that lead to, yeah, the rise of criminality.
Caesar Kalinowski:And then you also have, you know, people will say that it was the Great Depression.
Caesar Kalinowski:There's a number of reasons.
Caesar Kalinowski:And then obviously some pretty horrific back to back world wars.
Caesar Kalinowski:And so you see kind of a growing.
Caesar Kalinowski:of violence, people's exposure to violence, and the globalization of it in a way that people just hadn't experienced.
Caesar Kalinowski:Warfare, death, had generally been a fairly intimate thing because you generally grew up and lived around where you maybe had a family and...
Caesar Kalinowski:But now we see people moving and understanding globally and, you know, just themselves and violence and a lot of things in different ways.
Caesar Kalinowski:And so I think that's just increased it in a way.
Caesar Kalinowski:Now whether or not we have to respond in a way to restrict people's rights, whether as a government or as Christians, we should condone that is a whole nother question.
Caesar Kalinowski:Yeah.
Caesar Kalinowski:So, so now I want to move into like, okay, what do we get to as Christians think about this and or our own rights to bear arms?
Caesar Kalinowski:And, or the lack thereof of our right to tell anybody else if they get to bear arms, you know?
Caesar Kalinowski:Um, we've had lots of talks about the difference between the church in America, or in any nation, and the government.
Caesar Kalinowski:Those are two different entities, right?
Caesar Kalinowski:But the church is people, and so...
Caesar Kalinowski:as, as the, as the people of God, as the sons and daughters of God himself, the King of Kings, we do have, uh, also rights and the ability to choose, which means even within a nation that says I have the, uh, right to bear arms, um, I also get to choose not to bear arms.
Caesar Kalinowski:Yep.
Caesar Kalinowski:Caesar Kalinowski IV: And I think that's, you know, it's an individual right.
Caesar Kalinowski:In the same way, and I think I put it to you this way, you know, just because you personally might not value that right, maybe it's because your circumstances don't make you have to think about it on a daily basis.
Caesar Kalinowski:Well, that's certainly a big part of it.
Caesar Kalinowski:Or other ways, but, but you may value your right to free speech or your right to practice your religion.
Caesar Kalinowski:Yeah.
Caesar Kalinowski:And you would, and while someone might not value that very much at all and say, well, I don't really care about religion, so why shouldn't we just take away that?
Caesar Kalinowski:Because religion has led to a lot of bad things in the world and led to a lot of death and a lot of destruction.
Caesar Kalinowski:Yeah, a fight
Caesar Kalinowski:over religion has killed more people than guns has.
Caesar Kalinowski:Caesar Kalinowski IV: Absolutely, and the long term of, yeah, man.
Caesar Kalinowski:So we should just get rid of religion.
Caesar Kalinowski:Caesar Kalinowski IV: Right.
Caesar Kalinowski:But obviously we value that.
Caesar Kalinowski:And so the fact is, other people may value their own rights in the same way.
Caesar Kalinowski:And to the extent that they're not infringing upon other people's rights to life and liberty.
Caesar Kalinowski:And I think that we get to allow them and we get to abstain, we get to own guns, we get to defend ourselves, I would say we get to defend ourselves, and we get to live in a society where we can be gracious with people no matter what they believe.
Caesar Kalinowski:Now, I, you know, in this show we talk a lot about what's the thing behind the thing.
Caesar Kalinowski:Clearly, self love, fear.
Caesar Kalinowski:Uh, Desire to Build My Own Kingdom, to Manage the Knowledge of Good and Evil, and Right and Wrong for Myself.
Caesar Kalinowski:Scripture says that, you know, humanity will, you know, they'll have two people and one will call evil good and one, the other will call good evil.
Caesar Kalinowski:We can just turn on the news and see that every day.
Caesar Kalinowski:Or you can just roll back the last five conversations you had with your spouse and you realize that's how that works as humans.
Caesar Kalinowski:Um, I think the thing behind the thing is that we love ourselves and we wish we were God, we want to be God, and we want to take control over others, so that speaks to both sides of this gun control issue.
Caesar Kalinowski:Not only do I want to be able to protect myself, and, and some would say, and then if that includes taking a life, well, then, then that's what happens.
Caesar Kalinowski:I, I don't think that most Christians who would say they have the right to defend themselves with a gun, and even if it comes to taking a life, would say, and I sure hope I get to.
Caesar Kalinowski:Um, but, I think the gospel also does speak into the, in Christ.
Caesar Kalinowski:We now have the ability to choose to lay our life down on behalf of another, as Christ did, but we are not forced to.
Caesar Kalinowski:Just like we were talking a little while ago, Christ had the right to not go to the cross.
Caesar Kalinowski:He said, Father, if there be any other way, please let that happen, but your will be done.
Caesar Kalinowski:And we saw that, okay, then he submitted to the Father's sovereignty.
Caesar Kalinowski:Not to his own, but clearly he had the right to say, I'm not going to the cross.
Caesar Kalinowski:I think as, as Christians, we do have the right to go to the cross, to pick up our cross, to bear our cross, but I can see nothing in scripture that says, and we should try to exert that right upon others to, to have the same exact opinion as we do.
Caesar Kalinowski:You and I don't have the same opinion.
Caesar Kalinowski:Absolutely, you know, it's
Caesar Kalinowski:Caesar Kalinowski IV: funny, Caesar 2, to bring another Caesar to this conversation with too many Caesars already, So my dad, so yeah, your dad, said, Christ will never bend your arm.
Caesar Kalinowski:And I had to think about that for a long time and what that meant as far as What did that mean for how I shared the gospel with other people, and what did that mean for, honestly, my own belief in the gospel?
Caesar Kalinowski:Christ is not going to force me to believe anything.
Caesar Kalinowski:He's not going to force me to force anyone else to believe anything.
Caesar Kalinowski:Because the truth is much more powerful, and redemption is much more powerful, and so...
Caesar Kalinowski:Once I understand that, I'm freed from feeling like I'm forced to do anything, or I'm going to force anyone else to do anything.
Caesar Kalinowski:Yeah.
Caesar Kalinowski:Now, I will say this, uh, long term listeners to the show have heard us talk about the 4 G's, and the fact that God is great, and so I don't have to be in control, and I would want Uh, for myself, and for my family, and for other believers, I would want us to live under the belief that God is in fact great, and so therefore I don't have to be in control.
Caesar Kalinowski:That my ultimate protection, just like my life comes from God, my ultimate protection and protector is God himself.
Caesar Kalinowski:Um, and I know this doesn't offer, this doesn't offer to our listeners the solution to gun violence in America.
Caesar Kalinowski:I don't have it.
Caesar Kalinowski:I don't know if, do you have it?
Caesar Kalinowski:Caesar Kalinowski IV: No, I think, and I think honestly, much like trying to solve any other societal, social, cultural, even national issue, if we desire to see perfection on earth before God comes and restores it, we're going to be waiting a long time, right?
Caesar Kalinowski:It's never going to happen.
Caesar Kalinowski:It will never be perfect.
Caesar Kalinowski:Yeah.
Caesar Kalinowski:And yet, pragmatically, we talked about this, pragmatically, there's no way to take 300 million guns out of the homes of America, even if we thought that that were the best idea and that would solve the problem tomorrow.
Caesar Kalinowski:I'm just, I'm here to tell ya, I know a lot of former Marines that would not, that would not, it would not happen.
Caesar Kalinowski:Yeah.
Caesar Kalinowski:And so it's
Caesar Kalinowski:an absurd.
Caesar Kalinowski:And it would only feed a black market so that the wrong people, you know, violent
Caesar Kalinowski:Caesar Kalinowski IV: people.
Caesar Kalinowski:So, so pragmatically, there's a ton of issues in there as well.
Caesar Kalinowski:So it's like.
Caesar Kalinowski:What is our response as Christians, and how do we love other people?
Caesar Kalinowski:So just like the problem with homelessness is never going to be solved with money alone, it's going to be solved when people who love others as they love themselves begin to take care of those who have less.
Caesar Kalinowski:And I think it's going to be the same thing with the violence issue.
Caesar Kalinowski:It's a violence issue, it's a self love issue, more than it's a gun issue.
Caesar Kalinowski:And simply, yeah, but guns kill people.
Caesar Kalinowski:Not laying on a shelf at Don'ts, someone has to pick it up and it's still a heart issue.
Caesar Kalinowski:Caesar Kalinowski IV: When we, when we start to love people in slums and people that feel like they need to turn to gangs and when they feel like they're loved outside of just that type of obviously distorted love and when people, whether it's the school shooter that feels disenfranchised or left out, when they start to feel loved, then we'll see reductions and then we'll stop seeing this type of violence.
Caesar Kalinowski:Wow, this could go on for a lot longer than we already have, which is a little longer than a normal episode.
Caesar Kalinowski:But thank you.
Caesar Kalinowski:Um, I really appreciate it, son.
Caesar Kalinowski:Appreciate you doing this.
Caesar Kalinowski:It's been a long day.
Caesar Kalinowski:We're recording this at night just to fit it into everybody's schedule.
Caesar Kalinowski:And, uh, wow.
Caesar Kalinowski:I'm gonna throw this back now to, uh, to, to Heath.
Caesar Kalinowski:Gonna set us up for the big three.
Caesar Kalinowski:And then, uh, I'm gonna lay the big three on everybody.
Caesar Kalinowski:Thanks again, son.
Caesar Kalinowski:Appreciate it.
Caesar Kalinowski:Absolutely.
Caesar Kalinowski:Take care.
Caesar Kalinowski:Man, you are absolutely right, Caesar.
Caesar Kalinowski:This is...
Caesar Kalinowski:You know every time I tend to think in the world as of the world is like a binary conversation It's conversations like this one We just had that really go to show that it is never just as simple as one or the other but there's layers And and you know what I mean, it's not and there's and you know, and like I said, you know earlier that this isn't like Okay, here's the steps 1 2 3 and we're gonna solve, you know the gun problem that, that wasn't even it.
Caesar Kalinowski:We're really trying to frame the issue a little deeper and a little more nuanced because most of what I read out there, it's kind of knee jerk left or knee jerk right.
Caesar Kalinowski:And that's not helping.
Caesar Kalinowski:That's not helping.
Caesar Kalinowski:And you know, throwing out statements just like, well, you know, our thoughts are with you.
Caesar Kalinowski:Like, that's not helping either.
Caesar Kalinowski:What thoughts?
Caesar Kalinowski:Are they informed thoughts even?
Caesar Kalinowski:Like, oh my goodness.
Caesar Kalinowski:So, anyway.
Heath Hollensbe:There's many takeaways, and I think to, you know, just even walk away with three is a little minimizing, but we always like to do the big three, right?
Heath Hollensbe:Which is, if nothing else, you get three takeaways from the show that we want you to walk away with.
Caesar Kalinowski:And you can always get a...
Caesar Kalinowski:Free download of the Big Three as a PDF by going to everydaydisciple.
Caesar Kalinowski:com forward slash Big Three.
Heath Hollensbe:Caesar, what are the Big Three takeaways for this week?
Caesar Kalinowski:Okay, they're pretty heavy as well, just like this conversation with my son was, but here's the first one.
Caesar Kalinowski:The Second Amendment never explicitly states that gun ownership is a God given right.
Caesar Kalinowski:However, I believe the founders likely did believe that we all have inalienable rights as human beings, as image bearers of the one true God and authority.
Caesar Kalinowski:We also have a right and responsibility, commanded by God in Scripture, to know and follow the laws of our country.
Caesar Kalinowski:And we have a duty to know what the law actually says, instead of letting the news and blind emotion or ignorance guide us, or even real emotion.
Caesar Kalinowski:Take the time to know the laws of your country and what you can do.
Caesar Kalinowski:to live as a blessing in light of our shifting culture and some of the horror that's going on.
Caesar Kalinowski:That's really wise.
Caesar Kalinowski:All right.
Caesar Kalinowski:Number two.
Caesar Kalinowski:Okay.
Caesar Kalinowski:God is great and powerful, so we don't need to be in control.
Caesar Kalinowski:Okay.
Caesar Kalinowski:This is really how the gospel speaks to my heart in this whole thing.
Caesar Kalinowski:We touched on this.
Caesar Kalinowski:The false belief that we're only safe by the possession of weapons is a denial of God's sovereignty.
Caesar Kalinowski:Listen to what Jeremiah 17 says.
Caesar Kalinowski:This is what the Lord says.
Caesar Kalinowski:Cursed is the one who trusts in man.
Caesar Kalinowski:who depends on flesh for his strength and whose heart turns away from the Lord.
Caesar Kalinowski:Trust God with your life and safety and seek to be peacemakers and part of the change that you want to see in this world.
Caesar Kalinowski:And remember, just as God will never do violence to your will or choice, He has also never commanded us to try to exert our will or our opinions on others either.
Caesar Kalinowski:This is amazing.
Caesar Kalinowski:All right.
Caesar Kalinowski:Number three, I would say this is sort of like, we're, you know, like, what do I, so what do we do?
Caesar Kalinowski:So learn more about the complex issues connected to this topic.
Caesar Kalinowski:And this takes study.
Caesar Kalinowski:Understand the different types of guns that are out there and don't sweep all guns and gun owners into a single simple category.
Caesar Kalinowski:That'll not advance this dialogue or lead to any meaningful change or peace in our country.
Caesar Kalinowski:Understand that the life.
Caesar Kalinowski:Privilege and safety that you enjoy is not necessarily the same for everyone, but it does absolutely affect how people of other ethnicities, socioeconomic levels and religions view this issue.
Heath Hollensbe:Isn't it?
Heath Hollensbe:It reminds me of the, the show with Catherine Hayhoe, where it was talking about how the, the underprivileged are always the most affected, you know, and we tend to think that we have a grasp on this issue based off kind of our current status.
Heath Hollensbe:And so it's a good reminder to think that this is.
Caesar Kalinowski:Well, and we spent a lot of time off mic talking about just that, like, okay, do you understand Pops?
Caesar Kalinowski:You know, this is my son, like, do you understand Pops?
Caesar Kalinowski:He's real strong about, you know, how this affects these people, these people, these people, you'll never experience that.
Caesar Kalinowski:I'm like, yeah, that, that does change it.
Caesar Kalinowski:So anyway, there it is, man, we've run way long.
Caesar Kalinowski:I hope this has been helpful to kind of start to give us some handles and frame this from both a legal perspective and also a practical, but also gospel perspective.
Caesar Kalinowski:Okay, that's it for today.
Caesar Kalinowski:Hope you'll join me next week.
Caesar Kalinowski:We're going to continue to learn how the gospel speaks into all of normal life and is foundational to making discipleship and mission a lifestyle instead of a program of the church.
Caesar Kalinowski:I'll talk to you soon.
Heath Hollensbe:Thanks for joining us today.
Heath Hollensbe:For more information on this show, and to get loads of free discipleship resources, visit EverydayDisciple.
Heath Hollensbe:com.
Heath Hollensbe:And remember, you really can live with the spiritual freedom and relational peace that Jesus promised every day.
Heath Hollensbe:God, Guns and the Second Amendment | https://EverydayDisciple.com/461
