In the years before the COVID crisis, pollsters noted that Thanksgiving was declining in popularity. Among some who liked Thanksgiving less, there seemed to be a sense of not wanting to give thanks to anyone but themselves. Today, there's noticeably more spiritual hunger, as well as a hunger for some "turkey and togetherness." The Rev. Mark Wuggazer joins us to talk about Thanksgiving motivation and memories. He is the Sr. Pastor of St. John Lutheran Church in Cypress, TX. Pastor John Cain hosts.

The following program is sponsored by evangelical life ministries.

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And welcome to another edition of engaging truth. I'm your host pastor John Kane, uh, recording from NADOs Texas today with us on the program. We have, uh, pastor mark wo Geer. Pastor mark is the senior pastor at St. John Lutheran church in Cypress, Texas in suburban Northwest Houston. Welcome to the program, pastor mark.

Well, thank you very much, John. Appreciate it. As

We're getting close to Thanksgiving, we wanted to talk a little bit about, uh, uh, aspects of this holiday. What kind of Thanksgiving traditions did, uh, you and your family have? Well,

When I was, uh, a teenager and into young adulthood, uh, mom would always cook a full Turkey dinner with all the trimmings and enough leftovers for a week, but the real tradition without fail invariably every year, she would forget one dish and leave it in the kitchen and never bring it out to the dining table. Right. She would discover it when she went in for the pie or as we were all finishing, eating, someone would say, you know, mom, I missed the sweet potato casserole you always make, and she would go white and gasp and then run into the kitchen and bring out this beautiful, sweet potato casserole that had been sitting on the counter the all time. And, uh, every year it was a different dish, but every year it happened and we'd just, it became a, a, a running gag. And I, I, I doubt she was doing it on purpose, cuz why would you do that? But every year, boom, there was something, it, it became a tradition. I,

I think the first year I cooked a Turkey, I forgot the gits bag inside the Turkey end. Right, right. Thankfully that one's not a tradition.

Yeah. You only do that once,

Right. That's right. That's right. That's a big mistake. So, uh, you know, and now after COVID, uh, people seem to be, uh, rather thankful, uh, I know in the time before COVID, uh, there were some surveys that were saying that Halloween was, uh, growing in its popularity and, uh, Thanksgiving was diminish in that people didn't wanna feel thankful or give thanks or, or something like that. Let, let's talk a little bit about some religious traditions.

Yeah. Well, John, I sure hope you're right. That people are rediscovering Thanksgiving because it has been diminishing. And, uh, I, I remember when I was growing up, we'd always go to church on thank Thanksgiving. Now at St. John, we don't even have services on Thanksgiving. People don't wanna come on Thanksgiving day. Instead we have our services on Thanksgiving Eve. And if you go back to when Congress created Thanksgiving on the fourth, Thursday of November, it was to give people a day off so that they could go to church. And, uh, and instead we've, we've secularized the whole thing and filled it with all these other things. And I really hope that we really kind of recapture the spirit of Thanksgiving. So I, for instance, I saw a, an internet chat room thread the other day where people were asking , what's a good non-religious thing to say before Thanksgiving dinner.

And, and I thought that was amusing. And I thought that it was proof that God has hardwired us to know that he exists. And to, to know that we need to thank him. Our, our secular society has created this real conflict between how we were hardwired as human beings and, and our secularism. And, and we don't know how to handle that. It really comes, comes to a head on Thanksgiving day. And I think that if people, uh, would, would just thank him, they would have to admit that he exists and that if they admitted that he exists, then they would have to submit to his wisdom and his wisdom and his grace. And, uh, boy, I, I sure hope we can get back to that. And I remember it was when, if like when I was a kid, my dad would have this tradition where before we'd eat, you know, we'd sit down for Thanksgiving dinner and there'd be a dozen or more people sitting around the table and all the food would be set out and a great big Turkey that was carved just perfectly.

And those, those little tender, bite size pieces of meat around the edge of the plate, just begging for you to reach out and grab one. But you knew you'd get your hand cut off if you did. And a big bowl of mashed potatoes and stuffing and cranberries and vegetables and rolls all piping hot. And as we sat down, dad would say, okay, before we pray. And as soon as he said that, I would, I would just go really, how long is this gonna take? And, and he'd say, we're all gonna go around the table. And each person is gonna say what they're thankful for and to whom they're thankful. And I, I might have, I might have kind of dismissed that when I was a little kid, but as I got older, I realized what dad was doing. He was using that as an opportunity to learn about our hearts and then guide our hearts at the same time. And so you can tell a lot about a person by what they're thankful for.

Well, let's explore a little bit. What is it about, uh, our Christian faith? Uh, what is it that we are most grateful for and what do we have, uh, given to us by God?

Well, I, I think it, it, it starts at the top. The thing that we, we are most thankful for is the salvation we have through Jesus Christ. Uh, uh, if we lost everything else, right, as, as, as Luther's, uh, famous reformation song says, right? If we, if we lost everything else, we would at least have this and we'd be fine because then we get to eternal life, the new creation where we get everything. So I think we have to start there being, being thankful for salvation and Jesus Christ, and then, you know, everything else that he has given us out of mercy, uh, because everything else he's given us flows from the mercy that, that he has, uh, for us, um, which, which comes from Christ on the cross us,

Right. You know, in Romans chapter eight is that famous verse. There is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. And to, uh, understand the magnitude of the gift that we have is to, uh, take away the needs for, uh, preparation. There's no baking a Turkey to get into God's favor, rather. It's a, a celebration of what, uh, God has done for us through Jesus Christ to make us 100% forgiven. So what's your favorite, uh, Bible story having to do with Thanksgiving?

Yeah. Good question. My, uh, uh, my favorite one is, is actually two stories. It appears as two stories, but I believe it's really one story. Uh, the first half is, is about the father and the, uh, a father in the Bible. And then the second half is about his son and the father is king David. And we find that in first, uh, Chronicles chapter 16, where, uh, David sings before the arc of God. And of course, this is not always arc. This is the arc of Moses that, um, that, that contained the 10 commandments and some other religious artifacts and the people of God carried it around in the wilderness. And they brought it to the promised land, but it had never been brought to Jerusalem until the time of David. So in a time of peace, David had the arc brought to Jerusalem and on the day it entered the city, there was this great celebration and David spared, no expense.

There was an elaborate parade as the arc was brought into the city and placed on a special tent. And David composed a song to be the song for the occasion. And it's recorded for us in first Chronicles, chapter 16. And I'm gonna read to you the riff frame, not the whole thing, but you can read it for yourself, but the refrain goes like this. Give thanks to the Lord for he is good, his love endures forever. And from this, we can see that David was had a, had a heart for God, a heart after, after God's own heart, that he believes that God is good and that he gives us good things because he loves us. And then David turns around and loves God because of this. And then, uh, then the, then the, a book later in second Chronicles, chapter seven, you find David's son king Solomon.

And he has the privilege of building a temple for God, a, a, a house that this arc is gonna live in. And when king Solomon built this temple, he spared no expense. It was the largest and most lavishly decorated building of its time. And when it was finished, there was a day of dedication and an elaborate festival. And people came from all over Israel to Jerusalem to witness and participate. And the Bible says that Solomon had hundreds of animals sacrificed that day. He at his own expense for rituals, for feast, for banquets, and not probably much unlike our than giving celebrations today. And again, an elaborate parade that went up to the, uh, the temple and, uh, went through the streets of Jerusalem and people lined the streets to get a view of it. And there were bands and musicians playing, and it was so elaborate.

And when the, the parade with the arc finally made its way up to the temple, Mount saw, stood on a wooden platform, erected for the occasion, and everyone fell silent. And all the elders of Israel are raid before him and all the people of Israel in front of him. And they were all silent and, and an incredible thing happened. The Bible says that Solomon dropped to his knees to pray. This is king Solomon, the greatest king, the wisest person Bible says the wisest person who's ever lived. And you never find a king falling to his knees, right? A king sits and stands, and other people fall at his knees. A king never falls to his knees, but here we have king Solomon falling to his knees. And again, you can read the whole thing. Second Chronicles chapter, uh, chapter seven, but actually it starts in chapter six versus 14 and 15.

And Solomon says, you opens the prayer Lord, the God of Israel, there is no God like you in heaven or on earth. You who keep your covenant of love with your servants. You have kept your promise to your servant. David, my father with your mouth, you have promised, and with your hand, you have fulfilled it as it is today. And it's a very long prayer, but he recites everything God has done. And God loves to hear prayed back to him what he has done. That's like the best way to thank him is just to, to, to, to pray back to him what he has done. And, uh, and, and, and the very last line of that prayer is this. See if you remember this, Solomon says, God is good and his love and endures forever. He's quoting his father's song. And, and I think that's just so profound. That's just so wonderful.

Somebody said that God likes to be reminded of what he says, not in that he has forgotten, but rather it shows that we're paying attention. Right. Right, exactly. And so to, to pray, to pray back, uh, some of those, uh, words of, of promise as being fulfilled to not only in the past, but being fulfilled in our lives and being fulfilled in our experience as well,

He loves that, loves that.

And, and that's a, a good way to center yourself, I would say, in the promises of God, recognizing that they are true for you.

Amen.

Yeah. So, uh, you, you talk about the arc of the covenant, that place, where God, uh, told his, uh, uh, uh, prophets that he would, uh, meet his people. Uh, what do we have now? You know, the temple was destroyed in 70 a D when Jerusalem fell to the Romans. Um, what's different now for us as Christians.

Well, thanks for the softball setup, John . We had his, we had his body and his blood, right. We have, we have holy communion. Right. And, uh, and, and, and, and that the celebration that we, uh, that we love and we desire, and we thank God for, and, uh, yeah, that's, uh, that, that's our equivalent of those, those tho those two celebrations that we find in the old Testament.

Right? Yeah. It's a, a rather interesting, um, uh, imagery there where the, uh, the top of the arc of the covenant, it was called the mercy seat and the high priest would sprinkle blood on it. And the image of the two angels that, uh, were the Cher that were looking at that, it's almost as if they're looking through the blood, into the CA that held the 10 commandments, uh, the, the, the imagery of that in the connection with, um, communion for us word word in sacrament.

Yeah. It's the bread and wine, which is the mercy seat. That's where, that's where God sits in real presence in with an under and, and, and, and, and sits and, and gives mercy.

So the Bible isn't just an old book, is it

, it's very much, uh, uh, it it's, it's, it's, um, it is, it's a promise book. It's just full of God making promises and fulfilling his promises to his people.

Yeah. To understand that, uh, he is fulfilling those promises in real time with P people today, with people who are hurting with people who have, uh, uh, experienced the problems of the last year and a half with the shutdowns and sickness and, and everything else, um, to recognize that God has not departed us, God did not, uh, send any sort of, um, pandemic rather. He is here to heal and to give us a future, uh, is, is something that I, you know, everyone should have a little bit of humility and joy, uh, as well as love to be able to celebrate Thanksgiving this year. What, uh, what are you doing at St. John Cyprus this year for, uh, Thanksgiving Eve? Is there anything different this year?

As you see people coming out from, uh, being sequestered from being, um, uh, quarantined. What, what experiences do you see in the lives of people?

I see people, um, surprised by how much they Ms. Church. When people walk back into church for the first time, they're, they know that they're glad to be there, but, but then the, they, they come up to me and they say, I didn't know how much I missed it. I didn't know how important it was for me to be here. We forget. But as soon as we walk in the door, as soon as we start seeing the hymns, we love and seeing the people and, and, and just being there. There's, there's just something about that, that just bring and strength that we just didn't realize we were missing.

It's another worldly piece and hope and strength, isn't it? Yeah. Yeah. Well, we'll come back to pastor mark in just a moment, but first I want to invite our listeners to, uh, visit our program website, Elm houston.org, or G to read more about us. Uh, you may also download podcasts of our past radio programs, find short shortcuts to our Facebook, Twitter, and YouTube accounts. You may also donate to support our work. All of our, on the air hosts are volunteers. And so your donations go far to help purchase radio airtime. We are a 5 0 1 [inaudible] three. Uh, we have that designation from the IRS. So your, uh, donations are tax deductible. We strive to have a wide variety of interviews of people who are creatively sharing the good news of Jesus Christ at this intersection between faith and where that faith means. The, uh, may also write us at Elm P O box 5 68, Cypress, Texas, 77 4. Oh. And now back to our guest, pastor mark, do you have any, uh, last words of encouragement to our listeners, maybe those who haven't celebrated Thanksgiving in a religious sense before, or maybe haven't been to Thanksgiving service.

Yeah. I'm just gonna use the words of king David and king Solomon give thanks to the Lord for he is good. His love and endures forever. Oh, and it's okay to thank the cook too.

Yeah, don't forget anything in the of it. It's, uh, it's a joyous time for families and friends and, uh, maybe it's time for refining some of these traditions or, or maybe starting, uh, traditions in our own homes with, uh, inviting family and friends. So that together we may give thanks to the Lord who has opened the very doors of heaven for us in his love. I'd like to, uh, thank our guest today, pastor, uh, mark is the senior pastor at St. John Lutheran church in Cypress tech. Is there a website for your congregation

St. john.tv

And, uh, you have, uh, services online as well.

Yes. So our listen listeners that at St. john.tv. Great.

So our listeners that are, are far away can still, uh, log into, uh, into that, um, um, that worship site mark, I'd like to, uh, uh, extend this a little bit by, uh, talking about, uh, religious traditions and the place of tradition versus, uh, let's say scripture, uh, we don't want to elevate a, uh, a certain practice. Uh, so there's, there's nothing inherently special about Turkey necessarily as it's, uh, it's not holy let's, let's talk about the, the experience. Let's talk about the, um, the human connection a little bit. When we talk about, um, the, the Thanksgiving event, do you have any thoughts with what it means to, um, encourage someone towards grateful living?

Yeah, I think the best way to encourage someone is to model. So, you know, if there's someone that, uh, and I tell this to, to people all the time who are, um, you know, maybe a little bit grieving that someone that they know or love, uh, doesn't believe, and, uh, it's all about modeling. I mean, we can, we can talk to we're blue in the face, and yes, we do need to share the gospel Jesus rice with people, but it's in the modeling, it's in showing people how grateful we are. And that, that really makes people interested is when we behave and live our lives in a different way, uh, that's consistent with our words that, uh, that people really take notice. So, uh, boy, if there's, if there's someone that you wish would be more thankful at Christmas, uh, I'm sorry, Thanksgiving or Christmas, uh, then, you know, model it.

So how does that look modeling? You're not talking about walking the runway here.

Right. No, uh, yeah, you know, I, um, uh, I, I used to, uh, I haven't always worked in, um, in the church world. I, I, uh, I used to work in corporate America and there was this one guy who I was kind of jealous of. He was a little bit older than I am. And, uh, and, and he would, he would always be asking people, what can I pray for in your life? Right. And so everybody knew he was a, he, he was a Christian, but he didn't, he wasn't, he didn't walk around, you know, with a sandwich board or, or preaching to people, but he would always be asking people in the office, Hey, what can I pray for in your life today? It, and you know, most of the time people said, you know, I'm good, nothing today, or, Hey, you know, I'm stressed about this meeting or, you know, my aunt has cancer or whatever else.

And, uh, and, and, but he would always be doing this. And he would always be praying for people and always asking people how things are going. And the thing is when , when somebody really did hit a, a hard point in their life when somebody really was struggling in life, when somebody really hit tragedy in their life, um, who do you think they went to? Sure. Right. They went to that guy and it's that moment that he could really speak truth into their life. . And, uh, that was, that was something that I, I, I mean, that was very formative for me as a young man to see this guy doing that. And, and I thought that's, that's, that's more powerful than a, a pastor, right. A pastor, we don't, we don't have those opportunities, but believers, wherever God has put them in their vocation in, in life, uh, can do that very powerful.

So did that, uh, uh, put himself out there in, in sort of a way to make himself accessible, um, was that awkward at times or did it become very natural?

Yeah, no, I gotta, I gotta be honest with you. Was the office dork I mean, I, I, I mean, people liked him, but he, he was, he was the, the awkward guy. He was, um, you know, he would, he would ask you what he could pray for. And I'm sure that it was very awkward for him to do it at least at first. Um, and, and so people, you know, he wasn't, he wasn't like the, the most popular guy. He wasn't the guy that you wanted to hang out with around the water cooler. But like I said, when, when, when the going got rough, when you really needed a friend, when you really needed someone to talk to, when you really needed someone that you knew was gonna care about you, well, you went to this guy, man, you, I mean, he was number one on the list. He was, he was so critical. He was so important to that, that office and those group of people.

Yeah. So even though he, uh, he might not have had the, uh, personality that seemed like it was the most winsome. He had the spiritual strength and people knew him as the go-to guy. And what a, what a great, uh, a way of modeling as you call it, uh, living out the faith in such a way that you share it and you, uh, demonstrate it to others. That's, uh, something for us to be thankful for. And, um, to what a, what a privilege to be, uh, that person in someone else's life to point their eyes to, uh, to Jesus who has, uh, earned our forgiveness completely for us, with his sinless death on the cross, as God in human flesh and his resurrection back to life, again, to that, to, to earn that for all humanity who is imperfect. And yes, indeed, we have someone else that we need to give thanks to, and that is our Lord and our God mark. I'd like to, uh, thank you for spending time with our listeners today and encouraging their lives of faith and Thanksgiving in Jesus. Join us again real soon for another addition of engaging truth.

Thank you for listening to this broadcast of engaging truth. Be sure to join us each week at this time, to help support our ministry, contact evangelical life ministries, post office box 5 6 8 site press Texas 77, 410, or visit our website Elm houston.org, or find us on Facebook at evangelical life ministries. Thank you.