Every interaction, from conversations with friends to managing conflicts at work, is a form of negotiation and mediation. But how do we handle these conversations when emotions are running high? In this episode, Melinda Lee sits down with Jonathan Cayton, an experienced mediator, to unpack practical strategies for de-escalating tension, fostering understanding, and leading with empathy, even in the most charged moments.

In This Episode, You Will Learn:

De-Escalation Over Combat

When conversations heat up, resist matching energy. Instead, aim to simplify, stay calm, and listen actively.

“That’s Right” vs. “You’re Right”

The goal is not to "win" but to make the other person feel heard. Notice the subtle difference between these phrases; one builds bridges, and the other shuts doors.

Meditation Is Everywhere

From coffee shops to boardrooms, we’re constantly negotiating and mediating. Recognizing these moments helps us navigate them intentionally.

Lead from the Front

Jonathan’s top leadership advice is to "lead from the front." Leaders should be visibly involved and ready to participate actively alongside their team. This hands-on approach builds confidence, courage, and respect among team members.

Memorable Quotes:

“The most powerful question in any conversation is why.” 

“Lead from the front. If you want trust, show up where the work happens.” 

“‘That’s right’ means they feel heard. ‘You’re right’ means they’re done talking.” 

Connect with Jonathan Cayton

LinkedIn Profile: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jonathan-cayton-47847091/ 

Official website: https://hoaombuds.com/ 

About the Guest: 

Jonathan Cayton is a seasoned mediator, litigator, and former prosecutor with extensive experience resolving high-stakes disputes in a variety of legal areas. His career spans the representation of individuals, businesses, and public entities, both in and out of the courtroom.

Today, he combines practical wisdom with academic insight as an adjunct professor at Chapman University's Dale E. Fowler School of Law, where he coaches students in trial advocacy, appellate advocacy, and mediation competitions.

Fun-facts:

• A U.S. Marine Corps veteran, Jon served as an infantry rifleman in Suicide Charley, 1st Battalion, 7th Marines before law school.
• Jonathan loves fishing, shooting sporting clays, and tinkering in his garage.

About Melinda:

Melinda Lee is a Presentation Skills Expert, Speaking Coach, and nationally renowned Motivational Speaker. She holds an M.A. in Organizational Psychology, is an Insights Practitioner, and is a Certified Professional in Talent Development as well as Certified in Conflict Resolution. For over a decade, Melinda has researched and studied the state of “flow” and used it as a proven technique to help corporate leaders and business owners amplify their voices, access flow, and present their mission in a more powerful way to achieve results.

She has been the TEDx Berkeley Speaker Coach and has worked with hundreds of executives and teams from Facebook, Google, Microsoft, Caltrans, Bay Area Rapid Transit System, and more. Currently, she lives in San Francisco, California, and is breaking the ancestral lineage of silence.

Website: https://speakinflow.com/

Facebook: https://m.facebook.com/speakinflow

Instagram: https://instagram.com/speakinflow

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/mpowerall

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Welcome. Dear listeners, to the speak and flow podcast, where we dive into unique strategies to help you and your team achieve maximum potential and flow even in high stakes conversations.

2

Melinda Lee: Today I have Jonathan Caton, who is an experienced mediator, to talk just about that. Hi, Jonathan, welcome to the show.

3

Jonathan Cayton: Nice to be here, Melinda. Thanks for having me.

4

Melinda Lee: I'm glad you're here. Well, I know mediation can be overwhelming, complicated, like. What makes you? What makes it rewarding for you?

5

Jonathan Cayton: It's not as complicated as probably anyone realizes. But whether

6

Jonathan Cayton: you are getting a cup of coffee at Starbucks or you are in a work related meeting. You're negotiating and mediating

7

Jonathan Cayton: just about every moment of your life. Anytime you have an interaction with another human being. It's happening. Most people just don't think of those interactions in the context of mediation or negotiation.

8

Jonathan Cayton: So it it's incredibly rewarding because once you get into it, you start to kind of pick up on

9

Jonathan Cayton: all the weird little aspects of life where conflict could arise if you took one path. But since you recognize that there was going to be conflict. You took a different path. And when you have to actually get into

10

Jonathan Cayton: mediation and negotiation in the legal context, it's extremely rewarding to watch someone get out of a very miserable situation, usually, because now that they're in a courtroom or a mediation conference room.

11

Jonathan Cayton: they've probably spent tens, if not hundreds of thousands of dollars on attorneys, and there's a really high stakes issue on the table.

12

Jonathan Cayton: and they know that if they have to put that issue in front of a judge or a jury.

13

Jonathan Cayton: It's still basically a coin flip, whether they're going to win or lose. It's it's a gamble when you go into that courtroom. So it's very rewarding to watch people end that uncertainty and and have resolution.

14

Melinda Lee: Yeah, I can see that it's just ongoing lots of time, lots of wasted energy to go down that path. And so when you can avoid that path. More power to you, more time, save more energy.

15

Melinda Lee: Brain cells saved heartache, capital.

16

Melinda Lee: capital. So, Jonathan, what are some of the key things challenges and people what they struggle with. When it comes to having these conversations, high stakes, conversations.

17

Jonathan Cayton: Well, we only see the world through one perspective. I mean as much as we. We try and empathize or sympathize with other people. And I'm not saying, Don't do that, but we still tend to be myopic human beings with a very limited view of the world.

18

Jonathan Cayton: and we assume that other people look at the world exactly the same way that we do, which is why, you know, in moments of anger we will often say, this person must be crazy like, how can they be acting this way because they're doing something that I would never do when in reality what they're doing probably seems extremely logical to them, and they're confused as to why you're acting the way you are.

19

Melinda Lee: Right.

20

Jonathan Cayton: So I getting people to appreciate just that alone.

21

Jonathan Cayton: That's a struggle. I mean, it's very, very difficult to try and put yourself literally in the shoes of another person. But if you can even incrementally get a person to appreciate that, maybe that other perspective is not coming from a horrible or a place of animosity like, maybe that's genuinely just the way they're looking at a problem, and you're seeing it in a totally different way.

22

Jonathan Cayton: You can usually move folks toward resolution just by getting them to that point. Maybe the other side's not evil. Maybe you're not evil. Maybe there is a way to try and harmonize what's going on here for everyone's mutual benefit.

23

Melinda Lee: Yeah.

24

Melinda Lee: So are you saying that when people speak they're coming from a combative place, a person is evil.

25

Jonathan Cayton: Not always, but.

26

Melinda Lee: Alright!

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Jonathan Cayton: Someone gets into a courtroom they're usually pretty amped up.

28

Melinda Lee: But even.

29

Jonathan Cayton: I mean, Heck.

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Jonathan Cayton: Even if you go to a coffee shop, let's use Starbucks as an example. There are probably times where you've watched someone be extremely rude to a barista for a seemingly innocuous reason. Their name was spelled wrong, or they asked for oat milk, and they got almond milk, or whatever a problem that can be easily fixed. But they have an emotional outburst as a result of it.

31

Melinda Lee: Right.

32

Jonathan Cayton: You can ask yourself why. It probably has very little to do with mixing up oat milk and almond milk. There's probably some deeper problem that they're going through that day. Maybe they had a fight with their spouse before they left home. Maybe their kids going through something at school. It probably has nothing to do with the fact that you, as the barista, mixed up the milk.

33

Melinda Lee: Right.

34

Jonathan Cayton: And just appreciating. This person's probably having a bad day, even though I'm going to have to encounter a thousand of these people today. And this is my.

35

Melinda Lee: Yeah.

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Jonathan Cayton: To bear.

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Melinda Lee: Oh!

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Jonathan Cayton: Can at least help you avoid snapping back at them.

39

Melinda Lee: Right? Meaning like, Yeah, they're not evil. They're not trying to be evil or with malintent. Because sometimes I wonder, why is this person so horrible. How can they think this way and then and then I snap back because I am like like you mentioned. I can't imagine how anybody could think or behave like this, because I wouldn't do that.

40

Melinda Lee: And and then so going back to what you're saying, it's about having just an understanding that they it might be because of all the other reasons.

41

Melinda Lee: the back.

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Jonathan Cayton: Least, if that thought crosses your mind, at least, if you have that that inclination to say, maybe there's a reason. Maybe I don't see that reason. But let me try and understand.

43

Jonathan Cayton: or at the very least let me try and be the better human being, and and not lose my cool. That will go a long way.

44

Melinda Lee: So what would be your suggestion or tip to if I do have to address someone

45

Melinda Lee: like this? What could be something that would help me

46

Melinda Lee: and help the conversation to address it, even if it's uncomfortable.

47

Jonathan Cayton: If someone's getting angry at you.

48

Melinda Lee: Yeah, and I, I want to address it.

49

Jonathan Cayton: Number one. We mentioned this before we even started recording, but try and and speak as concisely and simply as possible.

50

Melinda Lee: Hmm.

51

Jonathan Cayton: Don't try and make an already probably emotionally charged and maybe complicated issue even more complicated than just stay, stay cool, calm, collected, and

52

Jonathan Cayton: and simplistic.

53

Melinda Lee: Hmm.

54

Jonathan Cayton: And don't allow yourself to fall into the trap of responding in kind.

55

Jonathan Cayton: Yeah, think of like escalation of force, military and police. If they pull a gun. Figuratively speaking, that doesn't mean you have to meet that same level of aggression. Your job is to try and de-escalate instead of ramping it up. You're the only one who's in control of that. So really, the only thing that you can do is try and put your best foot forward.

56

Jonathan Cayton: Put on your best face your best voice, and try and use your your expression to

57

Jonathan Cayton: bring them down to Deescalate. Whatever they're feeling.

58

Melinda Lee: And usually.

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Jonathan Cayton: That

60

Jonathan Cayton: kind of is capped off by showing some interest in whatever they're feeling, and and asking questions about what is going on.

61

Jonathan Cayton: you might be able to help, you might not be able to help, but you might be able to just

62

Jonathan Cayton: bring them back from the brink of an emotional explosion. If you maintain

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Jonathan Cayton: a calm, relaxed, and simple demeanor.

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Melinda Lee: What I found is when the best way, like you said when it's starting to escalate the. And I want to get defensive because I'm trying to defend what I did. One of the best ways to bring it down

65

Melinda Lee: is to acknowledge, like you said, if I can acknowledge what this person is saying.

66

Melinda Lee: you're telling your for example, you're saying to me that I am unprepared. I am unprepared. That's like me. Acknowledge. Okay. Yes, I will be more prepared next time. I don't think I was unprepared. This person thinks I'm unprepared. And

67

Melinda Lee: what are your what are your tips for me to not get so defensive, or feel like, feel like I am acknowledging or admitting my faults

68

Melinda Lee: from their perspective.

69

Melinda Lee: Well.

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Jonathan Cayton: If you use that, that example that you just brought up. If someone accuses you of being unprepared.

71

Melinda Lee: Yes.

72

Jonathan Cayton: I say I hear you, and how could I be better prepared next time?

73

Jonathan Cayton: Can you help me right

74

Jonathan Cayton: with with regard to that particular question, it doesn't work, but to me the most powerful question in any conversation is, why.

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Melinda Lee: Hmm! Why?

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Jonathan Cayton: Literally just asking why, if someone, if someone takes a particular position, they're

77

Jonathan Cayton: sometimes going to be very, very emphatic about it.

78

Jonathan Cayton: But even if they're not merely asking why they're taking that position, why is this a concern? Why is this happening at this time? I mean, just the question, why, we'll usually draw out so much information.

79

Jonathan Cayton: Help you understand the whole context of whatever's going on.

80

Melinda Lee: Right? Right? Right? Right? They're going to have a lot of context information to give to you.

81

Melinda Lee: And then that way, you can ask more questions, or at least have a better understanding.

82

Melinda Lee: and they feel acknowledged or heard.

83

Melinda Lee: and I have a deeper understanding of where they're coming from, and that.

84

Jonathan Cayton: There's a.

85

Melinda Lee: Place. Then we can at least move forward somewhere, somehow.

86

Jonathan Cayton: There's a great book by a gentleman named Chris Voss.

87

Jonathan Cayton: He is a former FBI hostage, negotiator.

88

Melinda Lee: Book. The Black Swan is a black. That's not the name of the book.

89

Jonathan Cayton: Black Swan Group is his company.

90

Melinda Lee: Swan group is the company.

91

Jonathan Cayton: Never split. The difference is the name of the.

92

Melinda Lee: The difference? Okay.

93

Jonathan Cayton: Right, and from his perspective. And I think he's right. One of the most important things that you're trying to draw out of another party

94

Jonathan Cayton: is not.

95

Jonathan Cayton: You're right.

96

Jonathan Cayton: You don't want them to acknowledge that you are correct.

97

Jonathan Cayton: because that's basically them just giving up. They just want you to shut up at that point. They're done talking to you. But the slight variation on the phrase, instead of You're right, you want to hear. That's right.

98

Jonathan Cayton: Say, that's right. That's an acknowledgement that you have heard them.

99

Jonathan Cayton: You have now given them a a framing or a mirroring or a labeling. All these are negotiation mediation terms of their position. They feel they have been heard. If they say, That's right.

100

Jonathan Cayton: they are shutting you down if they say you're right. But listening for those subtle little cues and differences in a conversation can make a world of difference.

101

Melinda Lee: I love that I love that.

102

Melinda Lee: So listening for when they say that's right.

103

Melinda Lee: you want it. You want to build it up to that place so they can.

104

Jonathan Cayton: That's your your utter goal is is to make them feel heard. Yeah.

105

Melinda Lee: By first, st not over complicating things.

106

Melinda Lee: Keep.

107

Jonathan Cayton: It's simple.

108

Melinda Lee: All, and when they escalate, your goal is to deescalate versus try to combat.

109

Melinda Lee: and then at the end you want them to feel heard saying, That's right.

110

Jonathan Cayton: Listening is one of the most important skills in any conversation, and we we all are guilty of it. We spend way too much time talking, and not nearly enough time listening to what the other person has to say.

111

Melinda Lee: Right. Yesterday I was talking to someone, he said. One of my goals at the end of the day is to ask myself

112

Melinda Lee: how much. How many questions did I ask? Did I ask more than speak at the end of the day I'm going to ask myself that every day did I ask more questions than speak.

113

Melinda Lee: I thought that was very powerful.

114

Jonathan Cayton: Yeah. And it's another critical element of any negotiation or mediation. The information gathering. That's why questions like, why are so important, like, I need to uncover what's going on here, and it's probably not an obvious problem.

115

Jonathan Cayton: Otherwise we wouldn't be in the situation that we're in. There's probably something I need to dig up, and the only way you're going to do that is questions.

116

Melinda Lee: Awesome. Thank you, Jonathan. Can I ask you what? I asked all my guests? We'll close off with, what is that one leadership, golden takeaway that you want the audience to remember.

117

Jonathan Cayton: Lead from the front.

118

Melinda Lee: What does that mean?

119

Jonathan Cayton: It's a military reference. You can listen to Jocko Wilnick, and basically anybody else who will be far more eloquent and in depth than I am about it. But if you really want to be a leader, you have to be prepared to

120

Jonathan Cayton: actually be at the forefront of whatever the mission or the goal is, you cannot be the type of person who gives orders and expects other people to execute them by themselves without your

121

Jonathan Cayton: support from the front of the job. You've got to be willing to participate. Sometimes. That's not possible. Sometimes you do. You know, you can't be on scene, or you can't be leading every single aspect of something that your team does, but they have to know that if push came to shove, you would be out there with them, and you would be the one taking charge on point leading them literally. Yeah.

122

Melinda Lee: Lead from the front, lead them

123

Melinda Lee: from the front, and and and they feel that they are. You're right there with them.

124

Jonathan Cayton: Right. I mean it.

125

Melinda Lee: Down there with them.

126

Jonathan Cayton: Think war movies for anybody who hasn't served in the military. It's probably the easiest context. But follow me, you know I'm going. Everybody follow me, but I'm going to take the lead.

127

Melinda Lee: I'll take the beat, and I got your back.

128

Jonathan Cayton: Right.

129

Melinda Lee: I love it. Thank you, Jonathan.

130

Jonathan Cayton: You're welcome.

131

Melinda Lee: Thank you so much for your insight. I have learned so much today.

132

Melinda Lee: and this is so important to me to have these powerful conversations, because I know that even though it's uncomfortable, but when we do them effectively, it could be just powerful

133

Melinda Lee: and fulfilling on the other side. So thank you so much for sharing with the audience the powerful tips on how to do that.

134

Melinda Lee: I trust that the audience has taken away your golden nuggets to implement right away. And remember, anytime you have a moment to have a conversation. It is also your chance to connect, to thrive, and to make an impact

135

Melinda Lee: until next time.

136

Melinda Lee: See you on the other side. Take care, bye, Jonathan, thank you so much.

137

Jonathan Cayton: Buddy.