Shownotes
Good morning, Ladies and Gentlemen. Welcome to the People Processes podcast, where we dive deep into the tools, laws and processes that you need to know in order to scale and grow your organization. We help organizations all across the USA, streamline, awfulize, implement, and revolutionize their HR operations. We've helped hundreds of companies, thousands of HR leaders across the world get their people processes right.
Today we're going to be interviewing Jacqueline Throop Robinson. Did I get that name right? Jacqueline? The Thoop Robinson?
That is correct.
Awesome. And she is the founder and CEO of Spark Engagement. A Spark Engagement is a Global Analytics Company in human resources. They focus on employee engagement and passion. So we're going to be talking all about that today and we can't wait. Before we do, I want to give you a quick reminder to subscribe to us on your favorite podcatcher of your choice, whether that's iTunes or Google play. Check us out on our social media. We'll have links to Jacqueline's social media on the website peopleprocesses.com and we can't wait to see you there.
So Jacqueline, here we are. Got the interview together.
Yes. Wonderful. Thank you.
I'm excited to have you here today. Now, I always ask this question because we're in kind of an interesting field because HR world of ours, not many little girls and boys dress up as HR people as children. So I have to know, how did you wind up where you are, how'd you get to running a company that's focusing on this analytics and engagement for your clients?
Well, you're exactly right. It is not what I thought I would be doing when I started to get my master's in English literature. But however, interestingly, I ended up working for a very, very large corporation in my mid twenties and I had absolutely no HR background and yet I found, I just gravitated toward it. So I think because I was given a fairly senior position at a very young age. I didn't have any baggage. So I really had to rely on the people who were reporting to me to do their jobs, to do it well. I could not give them advice from a technical point of view. I'm only in one small facet of what we were doing and they had the expertise elsewhere. So it really led me to nurturing the relationships and ensuring that I removed obstacles for them and to really enable them to do their job to the best of their ability. And seeing the magic of that is what started to lead me to look more into formal HR processes and education. And so I really went from being a senior manager in a field operations into a head office position in human resources. So it really just naturally evolved.
That's really cool. You know, a lot wind up in HR one way or the other. And it's so fun to kind of see the through lines. And I've heard that many times that the reason we're here is because we were put in a position where you were forced to realize that your people are the most important thing. It's not about how much you personally know skilled wise, but to really grow an organization, it's about the quality, the talent the abilities, and passion of the people you bring on.
Yeah. So it does and it's just so interesting because really I was recruited because the manager felt I would learn quickly and I would have a different perspective, but I really didn't have the formal training. And it's so funny when I think about it, I just kept listening to my parents' voices and saying, "Trust people, just trust the people you're with." And I let that guide my decision making and it's really quite amazing to see how that mantra has just kind of evolved into this whole employee engagement business and really looking at passion at work and just how much those two ideas connect.
Really a world-class career. I mean, you have clients, not just in North America, but I mean in Singapore, Hong Kong, Japan, Australia, all over the world.
Yes.
Do you get to travel to meet with them? Are you out there or are you more a remote person?
Well, no, I travel.
Now that you're here, kind of you're at maybe not the top of your game yet, but a really high point. And a lot of our listeners, especially those younger HR people out there who are trying to grow a career, they're looking at you and going, "Man, I wanna I want to do that. That sounds outstanding." But rather than focus on how cool things are now, I think they can learn the most from hearing about our hardest times. So I really want you to tell us a story to take us back to in the journey of your entrepreneurial career. You run your own company or being an HR person in a larger organization, what do you think your hardest point was, your biggest failure? What did you learn from it?
Two things come to mind actually. One when I was a corporate employee and one as an entrepreneur. It's quite interesting that both of those sort of emerged simultaneously when you asked that question. I think, probably speaking of the corporate career might be most relevant when you're thinking of younger listeners, people who are starting their careers. I rose very quickly through the corporation in which I'd been hired in my early twenties mid twenties and I had many, many ideas of what I wanted to do. I had a lot of aspirations and I loved my team. I really was sort of a natural born leader with people who reported to me and we were just kicking it like we were having this amazing time and getting a ton of support until we didn't. And it was really quite stunning for all of us. It was just like, we're hitting all our targets, we're making all these changes. It's just like an amazing time. And the support just seemed to all of a sudden go away. And I had to really sit back and look at that and think what has happened?
Our feedback was amazing. And you know what? It took me a minute to think about what really happened there. And when I had the insight, it hit me like really like a ton of bricks. That was that we were so focused on what we were all about. That we were not paying attention to our environment, to peer groups, to people in other departments. And really probably does a little bit too arrogant and just not nurturing the relationships needed across the organization to really sustain our success. And it was a hard road back up. I mean we did it, we did it! But I'll tell you, it's so easy to become very focused on what you want, what your team's doing, even what your clients want, which sounds so great. But if you're not paying attention to your entire landscape, you can set yourself up. Your success can actually hurt you if you aren't nurturing those broad relationships and networks.
Okay. Well I think that's an interesting idea. Now, I think a cynical listener would say, "So what you're saying is we need to play politics too while we're doing an amazing job?" Is that part of it or is it that you also need to just have a broader focus or how would you respond to something?
That's a really good question because I actually don't mean politics at all, but, I can completely see that question. And sometimes I think also, I guess it depends on what we mean by playing politics. But I think what I was really talking about and the lesson we really learned is how to be inclusive. How to bring people along on our journey, how to stay open to others' ideas and other ways of doing things. How to see, how we can connect and collaborate with others instead of sort of staying in our silo and just being very focused on our own internal needs. I think it's very easy to slip into that, especially when you're passionate. I think in some ways it's the downside of passion. You have to actually make sure that others are with you on the journey in an authentic way, but that they understand what you're up to and they want to support you and you want to look for ways of supporting them. So that was really more what I was talking about.
Yes. And whether you're talking about inside an organization, a larger organization with multiple silos and departments that you need to reach out to and make sure you're all in line or even from an entrepreneurial perspective. I see this a lot in clients sometimes. There's a focus thing, a passion thing as you mentioned for entrepreneurs where you're building your company and it's like, do your thing. We talk about shiny object syndrome moving from thing, whatever attracts you that day and how it can totally destroy your business. But there's a flip side to that. Some of the greatest growth connections opportunities I've ever gotten have been because our business was working hard on it's thing. And at the same time, we managed to help out a client or even a person who was not a good client or not a client at all with something outside of our mission. And it was like, "You know what? We have a little extra time. Let's help them do this thing." And those have turned into amazing long-term relationships and opportunities. So keeping an eye out for that, just outside your direct focus. Ability to help others really can pay off. And I think that applies whether you're internal or external.
I think what you're saying is 100% true. And it's actually why I have clients around the world in so many interesting ways. You can help people and it doesn't have to be like the new shiny object. It can be, of course you can let that really distract you. But I think there are often very many simple opportunities to really support someone else's aspirations. And in that gift, the reciprocity that comes from that, it's not your reason for doing it, but I think it's just amazing how that kind of support you give others comes back. And I think more than what you give really, I have found, that has always been true. And just trying to be a good advisor to clients, small clients, big clients, challenging clients, easy clients, you know, it's interesting. It's one of the principles in which we operate. Like how can we always support and help the people we touch? Right? And sometimes that's a vendor, sometimes it's a client. I have an interesting situation right now where one of my clients through the HR procurement process has three competitors working together. And it's been fascinating to go into that process and to just ensure we all keep an openness and an inclusivity has been a challenge sometimes. But it has really ended up creating a situation where it's the best thing for the client and we are expanding our own horizons as a result. So, yeah.
Because you see, I have a client, it's a weird situation actually. But my little sister is a marketing person. She's 24, I think. I hope I got that right. She is now a marketing client administrator services rep. She's the account manager. That's the words for a SEO company in town. The company that she's working for. And so they've given them a budget and six months or three months or something and like, "Hey, go forth." But they're trying. They're trialing like four other companies at the same time. It's a big client and they're like, "We're going to hire for marketing companies, give them each a budget and you'll just go run wild and we'll pick the one we like the most." That's a rough situation because it's just like HR marketing is one of those it kind of needs to have a throughput, right? It needs to be coordinated and you can't just go out at it alone and we were talking about that. Some of the weirdest stuff is that, If she's finding a ton of value in working with her competitors. It's like this is really interesting stuff. You get to see a lot more than you normally do.
It's really interesting from a point of view of finding out what your unique offering is for that particular client cause it actually might be that the best solution for that client is all four companies stay involved as collaborators but bring different unique strengths to the table and that takes quite
Spoken like a true HR person right there. We can all be friends. I agree.
You know, what's so interesting like this competitive mindset is really challenging both internally and externally. And yet we all have it because most of us were nurtured in that kind of an environment. And to really do your best work. And I guess, because I'm all about passion, right? And I find that people end up taking on work that is not meaningful to them. And so they never can get to that point of passion. Right? But if you really find your sweet spot and really do the work that's most meaningful to you. Your level of fulfillment will be exponential. Sometimes it means saying no to work maybe that you've always done or saying no to a part of a contract that is really lucrative. So that can be challenging in another way. Right?
Well, and on that, I mean, I believe the number is something like 60%. 60% of the workforce is completely unengaged. Right? They aren't much less passionate. They're barely alive when they're at their desk. Why do you think that is? And is there something that we could do about it from your world? What do you think it is that we can really move the needle on that with?
Well, that number is a little bit leading. It is one source of information on engagement, which kind of puts engagement into an all or nothing bucket. But what we have is a much more nuanced model. Where we have eight different states of engagement that we've been able to identify. But to your point, however, if we look at some of the states that are a little bit more challenging like where meeting's not very high and there's not a high sense of progress. You get a solid 25% of people within organizations that are really struggling. No.
Not really sound more right because those headliners, those like 60%. And you look in your organization. We both run companies, but we work inside other people's organizations and numbers high. But still 25%, one in four are just not really going anywhere or not really feeling like they're doing much. That sounds very...
Yeah. And it varies a little bit like when we find it in Singapore. It's a solid 25, sometimes in North America, but again, North America is huge depending on what part of North America, it can be a little lower. But yeah, I think 25 is sort of a reliable number. And the other piece that's really interesting when you look at our research, which we've been doing for like 20 years, so this is really robust research. There's a state of engagement that we actually call neutral, where people are negative, but they're not bringing positive energy into the organization either. And that's somewhere around 35%. So those numbers often get brought together to give you like the big number. But actually neutral's not bad.
The headlines, as you say, make it all sounds so grim, but what it is a real opportunity to take people who are looking for something a little more, looking for a little more challenge, looking for a little more meaning, and looking to feel like they're making a difference in what they do. And you can pretty easily, if you have the right strategies, move those people into a more positive state of engagement and people want to be engaged. You know, if they're not, it's simply because they don't know how to be. They haven't figured that out. And sometimes managers in the organizations don't know how to help. So there's a lot of hope. We've worked with organizations who started off at that solid 25 with 30% in neutral or more like half the organization. And we've gotten them to the point where it flipped so that they were down to like 5% of truly disengaged with about 15 to 20% in neutral and everyone else in these positive states that we call energized, engaged, passionate. So there's a lot you can do and that's been the part that's been so fantastic about the research that we've done, is that it comes down to a pretty simple formula and I think that's the beauty of it.
Yeah. Well, let's say, I mean, I know this is obviously a large body of work. But, for our listeners, what can you give us? Maybe that's the formula or the shortcut that, I mean, I know there's no one sentence. Well, if you just put smiley faces on everyone's desk, they'll feel great. But what would you say is maybe a nugget of wisdom that you'd be willing to share with us. That maybe are smaller businesses out there could go and implement quickly on their own or our larger businesses that could get their brain turning around an idea or a concept?
Well, the key thing to remember is to get to the point of passion at work, you need two things. You need to see your work as highly meaningful and you have to have a sense of high progress that you're getting somewhere against those things that are meaningful to you. So the formula is, “meaning” times “progress” and you need both. Meaning alone is not enough. You also need a sense of forward movement, impact, making a difference, however you define progress. So that is the lens in which everyone needs to think about their work right before we get into the...
“Meaning”?
Yeah.
It's progress.
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