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Honest Talk About Heartbreak, Dating and Relationships - Rob McPhillips EPISODE 29, 10th November 2020
The Relationship Landscape
00:00:00 01:29:54

The Relationship Landscape

If, as we have said previously, relationships are a quest, then what is the landscape we have to journey through?

Transcript

[00:05]

Welcome to honest talk about heartbreak, dating and relationships, relationships, the podcast helping you navigate your path to happy ever after with your host, Rob McPhillips.

To summarize today's talk in five minutes, so we were talking about the relationship landscape and we talked about instead of looking at. Relationships as being more evident than in the moment, being the zoom out and see them from a bigger time scale, from being able to see your whole life, being able to see how the specific situation that you're in at the moment is just a speck in the big scheme of things.


[00:56]

You have a sense of perspective, being able to visualize the landscape as if you were creating a film, as if you were creating a drawing so that you are able to visualize the emotional states so that you have more ability to look at and. Journey to where you want to go to whatever visualization that you can use is the way that your brain is, is structuring the way it thinks, and so that visualization can tell you how you're looking at the situations of your relationship status.


[01:43]

So we looked at someone had a series of mountains that they had to climb. Someone else was on the edge of a forest and I didn't know what was in the forest. And someone else was confused and not knowing where they're going. And so we looked at what our fears are then. And in the current our current relationships situation, what priority we have to overcome. What was this at and. What what do we do next? So I think that was kind of it, but if I missed anything major out, jump in.


[02:26]

So thank you for being here tonight. If if anyone's got a few minutes to talk about the meetings in general and feedback. Stay on. Otherwise, good night and thank you for being here. So tonight's topic is the relationship landscape. So. We'll get into that in a minute, but just a few things I wanted to take over. Thank you to the people, asked people for opinions and simply said that was quite interesting. Quite a lot to go for.


[03:06]

So possibly at the end of the session or perhaps another time. Well, we'll go through some of those. For anyone new, if you can if you can put your camera on just so we can see you, if you're not comfortable, that that's fine. The so what we do is we're going to have a discussion, we're going to run free like some Startrek sizes and some breakout rooms, so, I mean, the breakout rooms we have is more private discussion.


[03:46]

In the main room, the conversation is recorded. We don't use the video, but we use the audio. So any meeting we've had, you can go back and listen to. What was? OK. So. I think my strengths. So the idea of relationship landscape, does that bring up anything for anyone? Is it confusing or does it before I was quite looking forward to learning what it's all about.


[04:24]

OK, I'll ask this because. What I want to start with is. Really tapping into your imagination kind of might seem a bit weird, but I thought this might be. Because it's something different. This is just the way I kind of envisaged it, and I think it might be useful for you.


[04:49]

So. Before you have any preconceptions, it might be an idea just to go through this exercise to. Exercise your imagination. So if you want to have a camera on camera off as fine seconds, Meeteetse, I'm just going to run free this. And what we're really looking for is how do you envisage it so I don't know if you have any pen and paper about. Or access to it. And you're not going to need it right now, but at the end.


[05:31]

Will. It might be helpful for you to have it. OK, is everyone saying if everyone sits somewhere with a relaxed when they feel comfortable with this little background noise, they can. De. And if you just said, well, we're going to start with this is a breathing exercise, so if you can breathe in really nice before. And in breathe out through your mouth, I said. Every evening for. And in breathing out, Farai.


[06:24]

And then if you see if you can just relax and if you focus on your breathing and keep that breathing pattern and then. Relaxing. Each time that you breathe. So this and now next time when you breathe in, if you can support your muscles. So, Brevin, for. Tense up and breathe out for right to relax. And then just relax. More and more. So if you can imagine all your stresses and worries and concerns and if you imagine just putting them in the bag and just leaving them.


[07:16]

And should you just relax? And then imagine that you can leave them up. You've got a bird's eye perspective. And then above you, above your home. Above the city. Now, if you can imagine your life in a line. And you can see where it begins. And you can see where it goes to. And pick out some of the milestones, the relationship milestones. And just imagine what they were, a deck of cards, you can just pick out a few of the cards, so you pick out a few of the incidents.


[08:20]

As The Receptively Review. And just zulily. We're going to go to the land of relationships and imagine that there's this land. We talked about it being a quest. So the idea of the land is that there has to be a land. The question is within. So. Looking back, looking down. What does this land look like? What can you see? What can you smell or can you touch? What places are in? Where have you been to?


[09:11]

Where are you going to? And what's the journey you have to make? To get from where you are to where you want to be. So if you look look around. Where are the different places? Where is the hazardous? With the easy pass. And then when you're ready. Zoom back about back above. And then back down to the now. Feel being back in your body. And then open your eyes. OK, so for if you have pen and paper, draw out what came to you, what was around, what is the relationship landscape like, if you were in a.


[10:29]

Bad place, where is it if you're in a good place, where is it? And. Map out where all the different places that you could be within the relationship landscape, where you single, where someone. Where is. It's stressful. Where is it lonely, where do you feel love? Where were you happy? And what are the obstacles? And so when you've got something and you feel ready, if you just put in a check ups.


[11:12]

I'm going to open up the breakout rooms so you can discuss it in a small group, if you're still working on it, then just ignore the breakout room invitation. If there's no one talking in the breakout room, if you just leave the breakout room and you'll come back to the main room and then I can reassign you to a different way. If there's a problem in the breakout rooms, there's ask for help. Link, so you get an invitation now when the warning comes that last minute, if you stay in, you've still got a minute to finish your conversations and then automatically bring you back.


[12:01]

And if you're still working on it, then just. Carol, know the breakout. Welcome back then you won't have anything to share about their landscape. My landscape was mountains and a path, no, not a path, a little spot on the ground because there is no path because yeah, I don't work well between the three or four of us, we decided that we're a little bit confused and a bit hesitant about going forward because probably because of past past problems from previous relationships and then.


[12:44]

Yes, like a conflict between what you want and what you're willing to sort of try. Yeah, that's that's definitely what I am at the moment with my little my little spot in the mountains.


[12:59]

OK, so you up in the mountain, you know, I'm at the bottom of a bunch of mountains.


[13:05]

OK, yes. That's a big trek yet. OK, thank you. Anyone else? I can dive in if nobody else wants to go. You know, what I would do is I'm just going to meet everyone if you can meet Sulpher and then whoever wants to talk just so that we don't have background noise going on our. OK, sorry, so mine is mine is a forest below a thick forest. I suppose I'm on that. I'm on the pathway what's behind me, but I left it.


[13:50]

Well, there was a fireplace. Let's just saying I wouldn't say it was quite demonic or anything like that, but it just wasn't a nice place.


[14:02]

And for a while it got really bad.


[14:05]

But now I left the place and I'm moving to a place which I feel is going to be a lot better. I can see some clearing up ahead, but I don't really know whether they are the actual destination that I want to be at. But the excitement for me is that at this I'm going to find out. I'm going to get there. But I'm also preparing myself that it may not be what I was looking for. After all, you know, the gold may not necessarily be in the clearing or it may not be in the other clearing.


[14:37]

So mentally, I'm also prepared not to get too too disappointed if it isn't what I'm looking for and to try and enjoy the journey that I've got there, I've seen it at least and know if along the way I happen to see flowers, tears, you know, whatever, that that's great.


[14:58]

I've learned things. I've seen things, I've experienced things. So to take the journey for what it is also not to have a bit like Alice in Wonderland, I suppose, not have a clock like the Revit time shield of matter. Obviously this is all metaphoric, right. For but so that there is no concept of time. It is just the journey. And I just enjoy the journey as you go through it. And some things don't, don't just rush through and then miss.


[15:34]

But that was a nice bunch of flowers. There was the city. I mean there is a journey to be had, of course, and you don't want to spend too long analyzing a particular theatre or something, but at the same time, you want to not miss things around you. So it's a little bit balance for me as I go through the journey. That's best to I see if that makes sense to anybody, I can put it into plain English.


[16:00]

Well.


[16:04]

You want me to throw you just spend forever wandering around the forest without making it through the forest, though there is the potential, which is why I said it's a very good idea that you picked up on this like it is like peeping through at the end of the forest.


[16:19]

It's over that way. Can well, I mean, I and that's why I said not to spend too long just analyzing all over analyzing something and looked like possible. And it's a it's a balancing act so long as you feel comfortable with your because life is such that you can change what you want. So you may decide that actually this isn't what I want anymore. Actually I want something else. And so long as you're comfortable and you will not look back on it with regret, that's the most important thing.


[16:55]

So what I don't want to do is look back on my journey and regret that I didn't spend time or I spent too much time, but at the same time, don't get too scared to spend the time, will not spend the time and get yourself paralyzed in that, you know, you just do what feels natural, what feels right. But keep your eye on where you want to go. Don't take your eye off where you want to go and analyze.


[17:21]

It is still where I want to go to. I still want to see that. Yes. OK, then carry on, because today I may look at certain things. Maybe I reach a clearing and I look at it and I go this type of clearing sort of total waste of time. There's nothing as total rubbish. When I come back to the path, if I see a similar clearing, I'm not going to go and explore it perhaps and just move on to something else entirely.


[17:48]

Has anyone else got a different. Landscape. And when you think about going up out to Tea Party type of thing, I don't know of anyone in the manga cartoon Akira and it's like a big Nayo Tokyo landscape. And that's kind of where where I went. And I was like looking like a big mouth. And I was looking down and. Everything locked in significant insignificance at the same time. And. I didn't really associate with the other people that were there with.


[18:36]

And I didn't know because you talk about whether you want to go, what direction do you want to be in? And I was totally unsure about which which direction to go in. And I think that was amplified by the fact that I was up in the air in the. And. In this particular landscape, so, yeah, from a visualisations point of view, I mentioned it in the in the break up rooms that I took, the exercise is being.


[19:10]

To. Look into your own life from an external point of view, rather than one which we often do, where we look with limited viewpoints.


[19:27]

So I think taking something positive from it. Usually that image of command that created when you talk, and I think that's a good way of stepping out of your situation and trying to look at it from maybe a different perspective than what you currently go, that's the way I that away.


[19:48]

It's also.


[19:52]

When you look at fairy stories and even films now, they are the way that we work out our fears, what we're dealing with. So, for example, dreams, one of the ideas of reasonings of. Actress of dreams is that it's a way that we develop social skills. And it's how we how we work out what like how we gain the skills that we need to deal with whatever we're facing. So often when there's when we've got a challenge, we start having dreams that are maybe symbolic, but then we have to use those skills.


[20:46]

And so when you look at.


[20:49]

Like the fairy stories of old. All the creatures like the trolls and the demons and the wicked witches and the big bad wolf were all in the forest because that was the extent of where we knew. Now that we know that it's like the aliens are going to come at us or it's artificial intelligence or something like that. So, yeah, again, above it is enables you to see a picture in Dissociates, it's not so personal and also that it's.


[21:24]

When you're in a situation, it can seem overwhelming because you're in it, but when you put it in your life span, it's less daunting. It's less. It has less. Impacts like when you look over a whole life. One incident doesn't have that that great terror or that great impact. So it's interesting that we've heard of these mountains to climb. There's the unknown to be afraid of all that or confusion about not knowing what direction to go in.


[22:09]

So. Looking in whatever way you envisaged and if anything came up not. What does that mean? What does that mean for whatever you're facing in your relationship? And so the idea of the relationship landscape is that there's a place we're all trying to get to. And when we're there, certain behaviors and habits are going to lead us to that place. And when we're not in that place. Is because we think we've done something else. And it's either we don't know.


[22:51]

We don't have the skill to do what we haven't done or we don't have the confidence that. So the barrier to the relationship that you want to turn to, feeling how you want in a relationship, is even knowledge, skill or confidence. So when you look at your landscape, when you look at what came up in terms of imagination, what does that mean and how does that relate? Because what we do is we think in images like if you dream, you create this alternative world.


[23:27]

And you create maybe someone else who does it and we learn from films because other people are in these situations. So. Whatever you envisage, wherever visualisations you have, whatever comes up is a way that you're making sense of your situation. So we'll go back to the breakout rooms, and unless anyone's got any questions on that or comments before we go in. I've just got a quick question about what Eric said earlier on, and it's just about how really do you prepare yourself for your brain to not be disappointed with anything that you set your mind to do?


[24:16]

Because for me, it's more I've got to have an expectation to be able to drive me to want to do pursue anything. So if you have expectations, then you're bound to be disappointed or there's the potential to be disappointed if those expectations are not met. So how do you. To that point, good question. So I suppose and this is going to sound a little bit mystical, I guess, but initially I've got faith or you can say I'm just too cocky and I've got confidence in myself, I don't know.


[25:01]

So you can take which one you like. But I and there is no rational reason why I believe that it will be OK. I can explain it to you.


[25:13]

That's why I'm saying faith that I don't think I mean, I could be wrong, but I don't think I'm going to die on my own in some lonely room and they'll find my body six weeks later, you know, because the neighbors complained about some smell.


[25:32]

I don't think that will be me. But believe it, I can explain it to you. But what I do know is that I've I suppose through my life, I've gone through things, done things, and I don't necessarily mean things like this, but other things. And I've come over overcome issues. And that has in time given me confidence in myself that I know I can overcome things. And Israel observed overcoming things comes down to knowing what to do and having the intention to do it.


[26:06]

And, you know, having the intention to do it is basically kicking your own backside and just getting on with it, not having the excuse or, you know. And I was telling Sasha all the time and all that, I think quite rightly and as should put on the spot and said, well, you know, sort of get somebody and make time. And that's what it comes down to. And the other thing is knowing what to do when I was little and, you know, groups like this, very unique of people like Rob, we can kind of give you ideas to think about books.


[26:36]

You can read them or talk to other people. That kind of gives you the how to do this, that they know that you have to make the decisions. So how do I not get disappointed? I don't get disappointed because life I don't expect perfection. So I don't expect to get it right straight away. And also, I haven't given myself a time limit, so I don't have the pressure that I have to get. I have to find somebody within the next six months or a year or whatever it is.


[27:06]

I don't have that expectation. And attending this group, I make a friend or two, just even if I just made one good friend of this group that, you know, it could be really getting along. And I mean, just a friend of romantic interest, just a friend for me to have been because I now have a friend, a lifelong friend, you know, going to be at the end of this month.


[27:30]

So it's not to say that I set my expectations low or anything, but I try not to have over to my expectations because I think that sometimes you you aim for, oh, I'm going to find my prince or I'm gonna find my princess and all the rest of it. And it's all going to be great. And and that vision of the future, the destination is great. Great. But it's so attractive that you can't wait to get there. And then the journey becomes an obstacle and you're not enjoying the journey.


[28:07]

And so you're forcing it. And then you potentially looked at that because you're disappointed that with earlier in the kids in the backseat of area and because you can't wait to get there because you put the pressure on yourself.


[28:20]

So I expect to have failures and I'm not going to do that. I will enjoy them.


[28:30]

But it is it is part of the journey. You have to accept that life isn't perfect. So I know that if I if things don't work out today, I knew that wasn't going to happen anyway. I just have this inner feeling that it will be OK at some point, hopefully before I'm 90. But yeah. Which isn't too far away, by the way.


[28:56]

Thank you. Oh, sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry.


[29:03]

I think we also have to learn when to call it a day. We have to learn when no matter what we do it, nothing is going to change. We have to learn to let go.


[29:20]

Otherwise, failure will defeat us because we are still hanging on and holding on and hoping that we can make it right, especially when it comes to relationships. I think that's very relevant. You have to know when it's when putting in extra effort is not going to change the end result. So therefore it's best to just like the bullet and resolve that issue and move on to the next. Use your energy better elsewhere.


[29:52]

And some of I think some of us are afraid of that more than some that finality that comes with having to do that.


[30:01]

And it may not necessarily be with our relationship. It could even be a course of study. If it's not for you and it's not working for you, you need to know this is not working and I'm going to spend precious time. On this Sunday, Alaska's. Absolutely, absolutely. You looked at the particular tree, you don't like it, you move on. That's that's easier said than done, isn't it? Because just on that piece there with with moving on this, all the added insecurity, there's a vulnerability.


[30:35]

There's loneliness. There's lack of confidence. There's. You know, this time there's things that they're trying to fill time. Yeah, you have so much time and so many things to do, but you seem to lack the motivation to do any of them. So I know for myself that much of the time I get to put like some ridiculous clock every morning and I'm in an apartment in an apartment block, and I'm the only person that's like six o'clock in the morning.


[31:12]

And I've got to belts and I go downstairs religiously and force myself to exercise in the doorway because that's the only place there's a mirror where I could spin these cowbells. I can see myself and then I open the door. And the other day the bin men were there and even the bin members said hello. So, you know, it's trying to master it's trying to master that in your own brain to do something. And your point, Sandra, about moving on is a really good one to hang on to that bit.


[31:45]

You might do something, might change it, I think is a fallacy. But when you try and experience that new stuff, it can be a release. But to fill the whole time, day after day after day after day, it's really difficult in your own mind as well as in your own body. So I now, you know, this morning I went out for a I went out for a walk. I said hello to the butcher. I went to the coffee shop, which is actually closed.


[32:13]

I waited for the coffee shop to open the like. I'm the first guy there. You know, every day I go to the same coffee shop and and sometimes I don't even have coffee. I don't even like coffee. I go into the coffee shop and I ask them for my hot water, which keeps me going as I walk around. You know, it's a it's a real challenge. You know, the. The relationship landscape is complex, complex in.


[32:39]

The environment, but I think the majority of the complexity is in your mind. If you can govern and if you can unravel the complexity in your mind and simplify it in your mind, you know, the landscape actually kind of fits together like a jigsaw. No, I think it's more of an emotional thing and a mind thing, because you can spend four hours trying to sort of mentally get yourself in the right space. But if your heart's not with you mind, you're not going to get anywhere.


[33:10]

I think it's more so in your car, in the right space. And sometimes it's fear of connectional. You know, it's the job of the hall and not the mind. So it's such a really good point. So how do you how does everybody how do you connect? You're right. It is a disconnect between what your brain is saying the right thing to do. I move on and the heart say, well, you know, just hang on a bit.


[33:34]

Something might change. How do you make that reconnection? It's almost like you need to rewire them. You know, it's like the you know, how to do it. How do you get it to happen? It's almost like to have to listen to your heart. You have to stand still and quietly listen to what your heart's got to say, not your mind all the time. And then you recognize what you have got to say. Yeah, that that's actually against what Sandra said, I think, in some respects, because that that moving on when when you've got some now, it's like gambling.


[34:09]

Isn't that I suppose if you can in I'm not saying to stay in a situation. I'm saying even if that means to move on from a situation, this is about listening to what you have to say as well.


[34:22]

For me, though, in my situation, I'm probably approaching the time where my mind is decided I should move. My mind is desperately trying to put out with my heart. Still doesn't want to go to Donald Trump in the White House.


[34:37]

McIntee Huh.


[34:39]

And but that's the thing. I'm a person generally who runs with my heart. And that advice is, ah, because you have your instinct as well, don't you? And your instincts sometimes is runs between them. And it isn't always the most sensible thing in the world, but your instinct can have emotional stuff in there as well. Hey, what you say in your your heart calling the shots more than you had calling the shots? Yeah, and on different days, one is winning and the other one's not in flip flops as well.


[35:12]

Isn't that somebody you want to die?


[35:15]

It's going to be I'm going to move on and think that, you know, equally as hard in a different respect. Yeah.


[35:23]

Um, how do you reconcile, Sasha? How do you reconcile your heart and your head? Just personally, I'm more in the situation that you're in is where my heart runs, the shooting I had runs the show and I literally just often listen to my heart sometimes and just step back and really be still and quiet and see what comes from the heart and not my head. And then I start realizing things I didn't see before. And start recognizing faces and.


[35:56]

Also, pains that I can heal and. Feel a bit more comfortable and confident to move forward and to lean in rather than away. Shashi, what do you mean by. Sorry I missed that. Yes, I was just asking, Sasha, what do you mean by your heart? They discovered neurons in the heart as well as the brain. So we've always believed that the brain has got is the neurons that send messages to all around your body and they've now discovered neurons in the heart and that the heart is actually interacting with the brain and sending messages to the brain and all those things.


[36:39]

So the heart has its own intelligence, just like the brain does. And it's about discovering that intelligence in the hall as well was I don't know if that really answers you. I think it's from a physical point of view. I mean, what do you mean from from when you say the Hathi talking, using that term to describe your emotions. And I used that had to be the define your cognitive thoughts. How how do you how you like me with what you describe.


[37:13]

Yeah, most of the emotions are coming from the heart, the fears a lot more in the heart than it is that. And not just fair, you know, I guess that that's yeah, is the emotion sometimes coming from the whole. So after that, I've had what you described about the hot day being said about the fact that the neurons in the car and that the gut, you know, as well, works with the brain.


[37:42]

Yeah, but what I was going to ask you, how do you distinguish between what's coming from your heart and what's coming from the heart?


[37:51]

And that's why I think it's important just to have sort of quiet time sometimes to just try and switch the mind off and let the heart lead and hear what the hell it's going to say kind of just surfaces on its own and you can kind of feel it coming up from the heart rather than from the mind. I find that really difficult. As soon as I tried to get my brain starts going a thousand miles an hour, but it's not it's not easy.


[38:21]

Like, you have to be feeling pretty safe and stuff as well to do if you really stressed, always like impossible. Yeah, and that's probably what it is for me at the moment. You know, I have heard that decisions that come from the gut better than decisions that come from the head, and I have said several times trying to distinguish what's coming from my head, you know, in between what's coming from my head and what's coming from my gut.


[38:53]

And it's I find it difficult. So you're not saying that, you know, you've got a choice to go on? I personally don't know how true that is. But we are here what you say, saying you want to be able to trust you, distinguish what you call and what you had. Robert, you don't, you argue, silenced the mind, what techniques? Oh, I think to silence the mind is really difficult. I think Sandra and Sasha are a little bit closer to me than they realize.


[39:26]

But it isn't one or all or the other because you ultimately are going to do based on what you feel. We always go with what we feel when you look at the structure of the brain. If you use the same brain theory that we have reptilian brain, we have a limbic brain and we have a cerebral cortex, we think from the cerebral cortex. But if you look at anything that you've bought, you bought it because emotionally you wanted it.


[39:59]

And once you emotionally want something, you'll make any story that will fair. Now, if the feeling is fear, the mind will just run like a hamster on a on a will because it will just run in any direction. So how are you going to win? Well, you know, this is like what Buddhist monks take 20 years to do. I think. First of all, we need to. You need to make like a manageable goal.


[40:37]

I think one of the most powerful things to do is physicalize. So if you're in pain, I think physicalize the point I exercise. I think I think that's a great way of of then becoming in control of it. So then I think. I think what. I think emotionally we often stay in situations because we were afraid, and so what Sandra's saying is don't stay in the situation just from fear. You have to look at the logic, and so if you can separate the logic from the emotion and I think what Sasha is talking to is the fact that we overthink and we can think ourself in any.


[41:40]

Round and round in circles, and so people go into therapy and they can spend 10, 20 years because they are trying to unravel something that they're never going to unravel, because you can always make up find some new cause for a problem and think that you're always making that up. So let's bring it back to the specific situation. But how can you quiet your mind? So what stopping in your mind from being quiet? Is that is that Miguel? Yeah, yeah.


[42:18]

Oh, stop it, you've hit the nail on the head a couple of times, there are fear, confidence and vulnerability. Los. So that's what I think. I think the biggest one is fear. I think at the moment just fear of everything. You know, I. I think all emotion stems from fear, yeah, everything less than happy is some fear, and the extent of fear determines the exact emotion. So. For a lot of people, when their stock is because they don't want to look at the fair.


[43:13]

So when you can accept the 50. Because what happens is you get that fear and it goes into a panic, and then once you're in that state and it's it's a combination of that feeling and thinking and. So I think we're all talked about faith. And this is not a religious faith, but it is a faith that. Ultimately, things will work out. And so. It's being able to like that kind of out of body experience is to because when you're out of the body, how can you have a.


[43:58]

Well, it's not just dissociation, though. Yes, but and the way that you this disassociating from what you feel so that you can look more objectively. When I do that a lot, walk to repairing LaSalle associate and pretend to my own parent, and what would I want for my child to be able to guide myself in the right direction or.


[44:26]

Surely that's not how it's a dissociates to deal with things. It's not not more of a coping strategy than an actual like. It's not to not to deal, not to deal with the whole situation, but it's to be able to look without terror. Do you mean more on a tax drop than disassociates? Yeah, yeah, basically, so that you can look at the situation in it from a comic perspective, if you don't it's disassociated, then you don't really care the other.


[45:07]

Right, to say that if you completely disassociated. Yeah, I mean, from that perspective, the point of view of being so high is that you are failing in the moment and yeah, it's probably more unattached if I'm going to necessarily feel what you feel because you have disassociated to some extent, but it's mainly about being attached to the outcome. So that really is about the terror. And so then you can look. So it's not that you deal with it completely like that because you're going to come back, but it's so that it gives you breathing space.


[45:49]

You're not trying to hold high on drugs or something, right?


[45:56]

So sorry, I said you are not trying to say I am high on drugs or something or, you know, I would say that I think I mean, are we talking about more about to some degree meditation here and also knowing yourself and knowing your own limitations?


[46:15]

It's it's about working, working with your brain. And so what you want to look at is how do you find yourself up? How do you create that terror? And so being able to decide on attach is a way of escaping all of that for a moment. OK, not letting fear seize control. Yeah, and so what you can then do is when you when you are sort of like in an out of body experience, you can say putting in more perspective this moment in time is is tiny.


[46:53]

In the lifespan, but when you're you right down in it, consumed by it, it feels like everything Sophie is is about the way that you've envisaged it. So if you can have that more distance, it gives you a little bit more calmness. Does that make any sense? Mohammed? For me, as someone who has suffered with with anxiety over the years, and I know that mindfulness, a lot of people talk about it like it's the be all and end all of everything.


[47:29]

But you're getting into those cycles that you're always talking about where you just with this success of things. And I think my mindfulness did help me, particularly there's a technique called othering, which is my because a lot of money from this really is just about breathing. And that's what we were doing at the beginning. And it's just about breathing and focusing on different things. Your focus, you're very much focusing on the moment, I think. And it's about the brain is you know, the brain is a sort of.


[48:07]

You have to train the brain, I think, if you're trying to. And that that's what I've had to say. I've had to change my brain, stop trying to go into those cycles if I can, panic attacks. Because because the month the mournfulness does work on some part of your system. The name of it maybe is the limbic or something, but it's one that we don't always focus on a lot, so it's kind of in direct response.


[48:38]

The reptilian, which is the adrenaline, is obviously the way they sort of said you is the obviously adrenaline is designed to fight, fight or flight. Isn't that so? You so you get a big dose of hormones, which redis your muscles with lots of. So they sort of and you're going to do so the other way. And obviously because a lot of stress that doesn't come, the actual physical using of the of the sugar doesn't come. So you just end up still without those hormones and all that sugar.


[49:12]

I'm not prepared for action. And the actual what mindfulness does is it works on the pathway OSes the adrenaline. So it teaches you to basically cut. And let's say as well, can be quite good for those sorts of things if it's more of a long term thing as well, really, actually. But, you know, see behavioral therapy, which, again, is about learning techniques that stop you. And your response to things, I suppose, in a way that can stop you, so it puts you in control of your brain rather than your brain being in control of your.


[49:53]

One of the things that I've come to recognize with myself is it's easy for me to amplify things and I've had to learn to. And I suppose that's where the brain has to work a lot to compare what this fair is with something else, to put it in perspective, to say it is not that bad because I tend to internalize things and. I will wake up and oh, my goodness gracious, oh, it's the biggest thing in the world and I've got to go through and figure out, no, it's not.


[50:37]

And it's it doesn't work. If somebody says to me it's not a big deal, because in my head I think it's a big deal. I've reached that point. It's a big deal. You can't tell me it's not a big deal. So I've had to find ways to. Come to the realization that it's really not as bad as I am making it out to be in my head. And I find that if I can do that, then I can deal with that particular issue.


[51:14]

Does that make sense? Totally.


[51:25]

I think and the thing of inflating a certain moment in time of our life or something like that is it's very much a thing of the heart. So the question of. I think, Alan, was that how do you identify what the heart says?


[51:57]

I found that that my heart always.


[52:09]

It's like up in the situation and it's like. It's so. It's kind of childish in a way, it's kind of the child in this whole system and the mind usually for me is more the parent. And it's like. To identify the heart, well, what happens is that sometimes when I'm contracted into a feeling of this is really important, this is going to change my life or this I have to do this.


[52:56]

Because of the training with mindfulness, I can go back to a feeling just by the literally the habits of the brain of being always in the space of peace sort of allows me to put the heart back in the space of peace. And when the heart is back in the space of peace, then the mind can think more clearly, more as a parent, more responsibly. And so when that happens in a short sequence, after I have been in the moment of the heart where it's saying then this is really important, I have to the things are at stake.


[53:44]

And then shortly after that, I go back to feeling at peace because of the training of mindfulness that I've done. I can see the I can make my heart and my brain and my heart and my mind or whatever communicate, because that contrast shows that, oh, my existential feeling can change so much in so little time. So it it's clear that there are at least two different parts within me that are trying to interface all the time. And sometimes I'm more identified in one some other times and more identified than the other.


[54:33]

And they kind of flow seamlessly into each other than quite realized when I'm more engaged with one or the other.


[54:46]

But when when that contrast happens so sharply, then it's very clear that there are two parts in me. And then there is also something higher than those two parts, because as those two parts always grabbed my identity and my.


[55:04]

Yeah, but I then they can they are not clearly fundamental. The eyes still something bigger than that. And so. The way that I can remember the name of the guy who said you got to train your mind and or train your brain and for achieving your goals or something, the guy who was waking up early and saying hi to the binmen. Like it was, I think. That's the kind of trying to enter to the higher state. That's how I understand that.


[56:00]

And getting a good control of all these things. I think it allows you to live engaged with your life, not live overdramatized in your life, have the ability to not be caught up in human drama all the time. And at the same time, from this higher place and being enjoy the liveliness of this dynamic that you've got inside and also carried through, carried forward into a direction, have a direction and feel like you are an agent in this world.


[56:45]

Thank you for that, Eddie. It's how I kind of envisage it is you sent yourself around how you want to feel and when you feel off. What's in your thinking, what's in your fears and how do you come back to to that? So it's about the relationship landscape is about where you want to be, is in the way you feel. Because ultimately, relationships are all about how you feel. We don't typically look at them in that way, it's like people stress themselves to make a relationship work.


[57:30]

That whole point of a relationship is it enhances your life, enhances their life. And if it doesn't do that in a relationship, is it going to work? And so ultimately, we are in relationships to feel better. And so that's that's really the way that we can navigate ourselves through. OK, so we'll just kind of breakout rooms for looking at your ears and barriers. And then we'll come back. Just round up. OK. So you get a link and took out and it's really what what fees, what barriers are you facing?


[58:25]

What's your obstacle at the moment? How are you, Christina? I'm well, yeah, I'm good, thank you. I'll just catch up, catch up. So basically we talked about the relationship landscape and what we did in the beginning was an exercise to envisage how you saw relationships. So it was kind of like our body. What happened? Where are you going? What's the landscape around? And people drew some sort of visual visualization. So we had some people that comes out of the bottom of of mountains, someone else who's feeling lost.


[59:05]

Sorry to interrupt. Should I call a breakout request? You sure. But you dropped out of the meeting, didn't you? So. Yeah. So it's probably cut you off. So I'm going to join you. I'm going to win you back. I'm just going to just. For anyone else who's name, I'll just wrap up so so basically what we're looking at now is how did you how did the people visualize that and how do they visualize the problems, the face and the barriers to them getting to where they want to be?


[59:43]

So what I'll do now is I'll add you into the breakout range. OK, so basically, remember which breakout room you were in, or do you want to. No, I don't know. OK. I can break into their. I flew into. OK, so I just send you a link to the break room. Not sure if you heard that explanation of what what we've been up to the last. Yes.


[01:00:15]

So really, we're just talking about fees and barriers and obstacles. So if you click the link, you go to a small breakout room with a couple of other people. Mohammed, did you feel that you got an answer to or do you feel that something needs? I think so, yes. OK. Christine, sorry, there was a question there, but no one spoke. That's why you came back, because again, this is not what I was talking for, a machine.


[01:01:05]

Do you want to stay in? Yeah. Yeah. I'm like, you want me post the recording? Oh, no, fine. This is the migration's recording you're going for this week, isn't there anyway they.


[01:01:22]

Yeah, yeah. Like if you carry on I'm going to get into a couple of the breakout rooms, make sure they're OK. Someone's got someone to talk to. So if you want to have a chance, I'll be back with. So what is the room we are doing for the breakout room, please? This is a.. Speaking agenda. And let me say you should a link, but if you want, you just you can just stay there.


[01:01:58]

The only thing I'm going to say is that the main room is recorded. So this is recorded, if that's okay with you.


[01:02:04]

So. So you got paint and Christina like Christine. Hi, Andy. I'll be back in a minute.


[01:02:13]

I'm just going to go and check on it because I wonder if I could see where where are you two people where you picked? I'm actually in Canary Wharf, I work in. London, yes. Sorry, I. Oh, no, at home, the tower.


[01:02:43]

No, no, I'm at home, but in trust in the wolf. Yeah, yeah. I'm literally ten minutes away, OK. Well, poshness. Sorry, Andy, I said poshness, sorry. Oh, no, no, not trust me.


[01:03:01]

Yeah, uh, the take that we will find some quite good places.


[01:03:09]

Yeah. The dogs do have especially the olive dog. Oh, yeah. Still writes about people's obstacles, then what do people have as their obstacles?


[01:03:23]

Kids pass in front, you come back and every time you're it takes me, I used to go between and ask to come back to the main room and you're not testing the water level.


[01:03:38]

You which one's better, which was more interesting if that is the case.


[01:03:46]

I think I'll be back in a couple of minutes. Well, you know, the question is, what obstacles do we have in our relationships with people?


[01:04:04]

Yes, and this story, isn't that so? So, Don, what did you what did you have in your little story or what about your film thing? So I missed I missed the whole start. I got to the last, like 60 Minutes stop in here. So about. I guess after half past the talking about a love landscape, so the thing this week is that you that we all have a love landscape and we're trying to look into what's that?


[01:04:34]

So we were looking at what we're all positive love like landscape with negative love, love, relationship, landscape, and then obviously what the what the obstacles are, which is what we're doing at the moment or how they're visualized. So I'm I'm kind of thinking about it as being a bit like a film. So if I was making a film about my relationship, probably a little bit of a cheapening of road side, there would be many storyboards. But unfortunately for me, my obstacle is myself and my little fantasy film or whatever, where I'm walking around, I actually find myself basically, which is a bit scary because I don't know what happens if I kill myself.


[01:05:15]

Maybe it's a bit like crawl or something, I suppose.


[01:05:17]

But there's an evil me and a good me, basically. That's my obstacle. OK. And the obstacle, sorry. I was just thinking while Pete was talking, I'm probably. Could I speak from experience or do I need can I just fund this problem, not answering the question, but I just feel when you go and when you get to know someone. So whether it's a friendship or a relationship, I just feel this is how I feel at the moment.


[01:05:52]

I just feel it's very draining because. Especially in London, I say that because, you know, people don't have time, you know, or it just drags on, which can be really tiring. And I just feel that is a very big obstacle for me, because sometimes trying to get through that barrier, it can take months and months. But then you come across people. We can happen within like weeks, which is also 21st. So, you know, it just depends who it is and it depends how you feeling at that moment, because sometimes you're probably more a loving person.


[01:06:29]

Sometimes at times you feel like you're not bothered by it, you know, so it's it's just I just think it is quite just draining, getting to relationships in general, I think and probably that's why I'm really not interested at the moment, because I just feel it takes up all my time, you know, getting to know someone. And, you know, the same applies to making new friends. It's the same thing. You know, people will take down your number.


[01:06:57]

For example, let's meet and you never do. And if you do, it's like once, what, every three or four months? And then you look back again. I'm like, sorry, who are you again? Sorry, who will I meet? This person that I'm sitting with hundreds of telephone numbers on my mobile. Just that's a big obstacle, getting to know someone, whether, you know, you know, friendship or not.


[01:07:17]

So that's definitely London. A very good description of London. Life is nothing. I've got quite a lot of people in my final numbers. I picked up that where I've literally forgotten what the name of the bus was and was too embarrassed to ask. So it would literally just be like blood from the mother red with the bandolim or something. This. Yeah.


[01:07:39]

So you say it's a London thing. It's not a well, I want to say yeah.


[01:07:43]

I think you might find a better quality in London, but in London, in London it's with quite a lot of things. There's a focus on quantity. Some really. Really.


[01:07:54]

Yeah. I hear what you're saying. Um, I think this is maybe a five year ago thing and we always had the excuse is that like when you see people talking to strangers, oh, you're new to London. That said, you're new to London.


[01:08:12]

Why why do you say that? Oh, because you're talking to somebody like if you're in London, you're on your headphones, you're reading a book, you're on your own. But I think people are changing because I personally am seeing a lot more lonely people, I think, who are wishing I'm based in London and I see more people like. I'm forever talking to strangers. But with no end game. I think that's what my that's what my landscape would be like.


[01:08:53]

I know that I definitely I used to go to pubs on my own in my 20s and 30s, and I feel like I to start talking to people and I didn't think anyone would have a nice job. And if they didn't want a statesman, then I'd just move on. But generally, because I'm from I'm not from London or from Devon. But I think I think when you get into your 40s like that now, mid 40s, I think people are a little bit more.


[01:09:19]

So I you find that it's got worse and maybe that's my age. Maybe as a 20 year old, when you approach someone, it's a bit easier when maybe when you're in your mid 40s, maybe people are a bit more I don't like the look at this or whatever they think. You've got an agenda. I suppose. You're lucky I'm not like I'm in love with people. It's the first thing people always think you're trying to squirm over, and that's when you can't have spontaneous moments with people.


[01:09:50]

You come from defense. Does it mean Devaney's better?


[01:09:54]

Yeah, I just find anywhere outside London there's just a lot more friends. I mean, I've been living here since 1994, and I'm not saying you can't make friends in London because you got the pub. So I could go if I wrote. But, you know, I know the pubs. I could go where I could get along with people.


[01:10:10]

And I said I just feel it's maintaining that friendship as well, that which is another obstacle as well, maintaining it. So even if you see the same person in the same group for three months. It's it's quite difficult, just like I think remember, the other guy's name is said, you know, if he makes one friend in this group, that'll be nice. It'll be a life friend. But that's just the downfall about. Meeting people here.


[01:10:40]

Yeah, I mean I mean, what is it, the pressure that you don't like or is it just that you just you just don't feel you can spend time?


[01:10:49]

Oh, I love London.


[01:10:50]

I love London and making wonderful friendships.


[01:10:54]

So, you know, with relationships that sort of I think it's more I'm talking about more friendships, not relationships, but friendships, you tension. I've got my activities and you tend to see the same people and we click and I think people don't have time either. People have friends, the old friends that you know, I'm close friends with the families already because of my age as well. But it's like they'll ask you for your number and they'll be happy.


[01:11:21]

And, you know, you ask them to go for a drink, but you wanna go for a coffee.


[01:11:25]

You know, I can't now try and fix it. So there's always there seems to be always excuses, even though you do the same activities and you see the same people week after week. So that's just the challenge. But then again, it's a big cities and it's nothing. Any big city is like this, I don't think it's just London in particular, Manchester, certainly, I think Manchester, Birmingham, at which the next couple of days that they've definitely got a friend, Mayor Bob.


[01:11:51]

Yeah, I lived in Birmingham as well, and I don't just mean like the Bob Nutter or whatever, you know? Well, actually, I'm a doctor. I've been to South Hampton the other week. And literally it struck me that maybe this is just me because I live in London, but I was sort of parking thing and in the car trying to work out how to operate in London. Obviously, it was obviously a woman came in so bear with me and was sort of doing stuff.


[01:12:18]

And she actually turned around and said, can I help you use the machine in London? They probably think I was trying to, like, throw their money or whatever. And I said. Yeah, yeah, I know what you thought struck right, like the first two or three people I met, just a lot more chatty, more open. I suppose it's just one of those things that, you know, just the amount of people. Yeah, I suppose.


[01:12:44]

Yeah. You know, we all and I think people scattered says lenders. You and people don't have time to commute for an hour, an hour and a half because we don't all live in the same area. So there could also be part of it.


[01:12:54]

But I think yeah, I think it's very much become very much a quantity, like you say, friendship.


[01:13:02]

I think London people just I mean, that's one I'm not trust me, I'm not.


[01:13:06]

Even though I do tell you I'm very outgoing and, you know, very friendly and I just I love making friends and I'll change forever. And I think that people actually get scared when I talk to them or say, oh, God, what is she after? But then again, it's just my nature, you know, coming from South Africa, we just are very I'm actually a Portuguese South African, some quite you know, we just like chat.


[01:13:27]

Everybody was sitting in the queue. Always my conversations. Everyone says, please don't talk to them because I know you going to talk. We need to because I'll end up talking to everyone in sometimes friends who would say we need to go, like just chatting away. But I think it's that's that's the biggest obstacle is making your friends in London unpeaceful, which is about my age.


[01:13:49]

How old are you yourself? I don't mind sharing. I'm going to be 50 in less than six months. Yeah, I know, I know everyone.


[01:14:01]

That's another story. Get all the 30s and 40 friends and we'll get the 60, 70 friends, which I've got as well. So but again, I'll be I'll be 50 soon.


[01:14:15]

Oh, yeah. I think London is so much stress because there's so much money that it's more pressurized, but it's really listening in from what you were saying. And I think it's it's really about connection and it's about. You had a good connection, but then when life is going on in this world, that kind of pressure of other things is the barrier. If you were someone they'd seen a few times, it's easy, but then it's like it plays on people's insecurities and fears.


[01:14:59]

And so it's really about how can you make the connection that makes it simpler and easier and sustainable, to be honest.


[01:15:10]

Yeah, so.


[01:15:11]

So rather than be up for a drink, what's the next was the easiest thing is a friend on Facebook or something so that you have a little interaction in common. In between, and that's yes, I think the way that you never build a friendship that makes any sense.


[01:15:35]

Yeah, yeah, it does. But I'm sorry. I was just going to say I was thinking when when Andy Österreich I was thinking, like, perthes so quickly, who decides that I.


[01:15:56]

Sorry, Andy, I think you look good.


[01:15:59]

Oh, yeah, probably because I don't drink or smoke or take drugs.


[01:16:03]

Sorry, no, personally, I think the same three things that you mentioned I necessarily don't do and the things that most people around would use to be in communities with. So let me at a pop. So I'm not necessarily a prop., but I don't drink necessarily. Yeah.


[01:16:29]

Yeah, me too. I smell the coffee but I will go ahead.


[01:16:34]

Well. More landscape saying that is that, like, generally I don't go to pubs and clubs.


[01:16:45]

Father loved to dance. And. I like to go to if I were to dance, you would be swept today.


[01:17:02]

Hello. Hi, Gavin. Everyone's just going to come back from breakout rooms in a moment. This is a disposable camera.


[01:17:14]

How are you, Gavin? Just after 7:00. Yeah.


[01:17:20]

Sorry to interrupt you, and the story is that, like, I generally go out and I'll meet people and I'll say hi and do.


[01:17:34]

I won't say if the spiritual. But like, you know, I talk to anybody but this, it's another thing without talking to you more than let's meet each other again, unless we meet at the same place at the same time at the same cafe, like the song.


[01:17:56]

I've been single for quite a long time and I love my own company. I apologize. I can't.


[01:18:04]

Sorry to cut you off, but just to explain, with the breakout rooms now back, so we're back in the main room. I'm just going to wrap up because we're coming to nine o'clock and I know much people want to leave. So sorry for interrupting me like this. I'm going to show you my relationship landscape before it. Does anyone have any comments or questions based on that discussion? OK. All right. I'm just going to share. Sunscreen.


[01:18:41]

OK, so this is the way that I. Envisage the relationship landscape and it's basically. When you see people there in one of these. They're in one of these states and so there's people that so it may be that people are getting over a heartbreak and it's. You know, the devastation of a breakup. Some people don't heal after a break up, and so you've got a lot of people that have been hurt and very bitter. And so you see that a lot in dating sites.


[01:19:31]

And so I call that the Peter Barellan and and so then you've got the Taichung doldrums. Which is really what? A lot of people experience in dating, a lot of people experience, they get fed up, they get disappointed, they get into short relationships, which is the frustrating things, and then someone just disappears and goes to them or ends up not working and they come back and they are dating half heartedly and start to get more and more despairing.


[01:20:08]

And sometimes they move into its balance. Sometimes people die and they think they've met someone perfect and they're deliriously happy for six months. And then it turns out to be someone controlling, someone manipulative, and they just end up in this relationship and. Come out quite devastated. And then there's people that are in a relationship and is happy and an address, maybe free five, 10, 20 years, and it just ends up that there are some they share the housework duties with someone, that they share the parenting, and they've lost each other and they don't really have any connection to them is just keeping the house running, looking after the kids without any real connection between them.


[01:20:59]

So for me, it's about the relationships are about how do you get lost in this fight and you can be happy whether you're single or whether you're in a relationship. And most of us feel the pull to be in a relationship, and so it's about so it's quite easy to be happy and single because there's not much complexity to it when you are involved with someone else. And it makes it much harder because it's about do you have the do you know how to make the relationship work?


[01:21:43]

You know how to resolve the conflict? Do you have the skills to do and the confidence the sets about? For me, the idea of the relationship landscape is here's where you really want to be. He is the hazards and then it's recognizing where you are and then finding the pathway to. Where you want to be? So aside from explaining why my art teacher said my art was the worst he'd seen in 20 years of teaching. Does that make any sense or any reason I mean, anything to you in terms of your journey?


[01:22:24]

And so I was just going to say the heartbreak hole, I think I know hundreds of widows and I think in that context with grief, you don't really expect to get over it in the same way that you implied that you get over you get over a heartbreak.


[01:22:43]

So I don't know if it really fits in. Do you mean I heard is different or do you mean that it's going to take longer? I think that you don't get over it, it's not it's just not the same, and we talk about this stuff a lot. And even if you're in a new relationship, you still love and miss and grieve. The person that's dead that doesn't just stop, doesn't go away. You learn to deal with the grief itself, doesn't just evaporate because you found somebody new.


[01:23:16]

So what you implied that people will get over heartbreak eventually or they might not. But I just want to put a word in for the grieving widows, because people assume that you're going to get over it. And in my experience of talking to hundreds of them, that's not quite what happens in real life. I mean, I work with young widows, so it's different and it's shocking and it's awful. Just to Pascal, before you say anything on that, Rob, I think grief is grief, and just because you don't you don't see someone because the death.


[01:23:55]

I don't think it's any different than not seeing somebody because they didn't relationship the longer the relationship. And I think in some ways it can be worse because at least, you know, there's a final outcome because that patient is that. Whereas if you're you happen to be still in love with with somebody, they've left it and had an affair or whatever. And on the one on one with somebody else, that can be, in many cases, more painful than when someone's there.


[01:24:27]

And I'm speaking from not from a professional point of view, because I have worked with a lot of people who have had partners leave her partners, cheat, partners die. And from my point of view, I think revisionary. I think obviously I think grief affects people in different ways, and I can't speak to what it's like being a widow or widower and so it's individual, but from my perspective. I don't believe that your life has to be defined and it may not be the same.


[01:25:14]

It may not. Obviously, they said events that are always going to leave their mark. And I think whether it's a devastating relationship or whether it's a loss. I think it's. An experienced in life by, I don't think. That it's kind of it means that you're forever stuck in that grief, you may have grief to some extent. I don't think your entire life is going to be defined by the fact that you lost someone I think is going to be a I don't think that is a barrier to ever seeing happy again.


[01:26:00]

But like I said, I've never experienced it. So I can't say. From experience, but that's my belief and yes, that's my landscape. So other than other than in terms of and it's not like you can just move from one to another, but it's it's that there's a process. So if it's Heartbreak Hill and there's a stage of grief.


[01:26:31]

To work free. And. I mean, the state of grief is quite clearly marked out by these people, of course, but in each of them, whether it's the dating doldrums, whether it's whichever there's a stage, there's a process. And there's certain things that you have to know, a certain skills that you have to have and the ability and it's the obstacle is of wherever you are, whatever state you're in, whatever process that you have to get to, to get out of, wherever you feel stuck at the moment or if you're confused is like, what's the next step where you map the next step to.


[01:27:24]

So, yeah, we we've got five nine and one of the feedback's was to finish where people knew what time they finished because we have been running on Quitline and so does anyone want any comments? Questions? If anyone wants to stay on and discuss some of the topics and feedback in terms of meetings and general ideas or comments. Of how we can run this better than if you can if you stay on, if anyone's interested, will down and talk about that.


[01:28:05]

But in terms of this topic, any closing comments, any insights, force questions? Yeah, I think it's good. I think it's a good plan. Like, I like the model. I think it's helpful. Thank you. I mentioned about the I was worried about mindfulness. And there was the other chap who I think it was looking at as well, but it's the parasympathetic nervous system is pretty, Roxann, and I would honestly recommend typing in.


[01:28:46]

But a sympathetic nervous system into Google to sort of control that sort of stuff, what you're trying to stop the race in mind, because it really does kind of explain why mindfulness can be quite helpful. I don't think it's the be all and end all of everything, but it can really help. And interestingly enough, when I actually looked it up. It's something to do with the guys as well. Basically, we were talking about that sometimes earlier as well.


[01:29:11]

So, yeah, like to thank. You think it's not. Is not. Also in that in that light of that is breathing exercises and I would look at Imhoff, we have developed his system. It was the grief of losing his wife, his wife committed suicide and he didn't know how to cope and everything he did was from. From that. Deep pain and to try and find some meaning and gain some control over life. And.