In this groundbreaking episode of The Future of NFTs, we delve into the future of event ticketing with Frank Roskam, Founder & CEO of Celebratix. Join us as we explore the innovative world of blockchain technology and its transformative impact on event ticketing. Frank shares his insights into how Celebratix is revolutionizing the way we buy, sell, and authenticate event tickets using blockchain, ensuring secure, transparent, and fraud-free transactions. Discover the potential of decentralized ticketing systems, the challenges faced by the ticketing industry, and the exciting possibilities that lie ahead. Tune in to gain a deeper understanding of the blockchain revolution and its game-changing implications for event enthusiasts, organizers, and ticket sellers alike.

Celebratix - Revolutionizing event Ticketing with Blockchain

Participants:

• Nadja Bester (Co-founder of AdLunam)

• Frank Roskam ( Founder & CEO of Celebratix)

00:22

Nadja

Hey, web3 world. Welcome to the Future of NFTs sponsored by AdLunam, I'm your host Nadja, and we are going to be talking today with a very interesting gentleman working on something very interesting. If you've been around the NFT space, you know that there has been a lot of talk about the use of NFTs in Event ticketing. So I'm excited well, I might be exciting too, but I'm excited to be speaking with Frank Roskam, the founder and CEO of Celebratix. Now, Celebratix is a fast growing blockchain ticketing startup based out of Amsterdam in the Netherlands. And with over 250,000 tickets in on chain activity, Celebratix is leveraging blockchain technology to not only improve the way that event organizers make revenue, but also how they interact with customer data throughout the event lifecycle.

01:15

Nadja

So definitely stay tuned for this episode to really dive deep into how blockchain is revolutionizing the future of event ticketing, which, as I'm sure we can all agree is a very relevant use case for this technology. So, Frank, so happy to have you with us today and thank you, big shout out to Lawrence AdLunam, co-founder, who's also on the show today for connecting us at the Nordic Blockchain Conference. So I think before we get going, Frank, just give me a bit of a background in terms of where did you come from previously, professionally and how did you get into this space, the event ticketing space, and especially with this focus on NFT and blockchain and all of these exciting technologies that we are working with.

02:05

Frank

Yes, thank you so much, Nadja, for the amazing intro. I couldn't have said that any better myself. And also, Lawrence, thank you for connecting me here with the amazing team AdLunam. We had a great time in Copenhagen during Nordic Blockchain conference. That was very cool. I'll give a quick introduction about myself. So I finished my academics, just the usual stuff with a bachelor and a master's and studying in Singapore, but I was never really academically challenged. So next to that, I've always thrown parties in Amsterdam. We do nightclub events, we do festivals, we do beach club areas, so all different kinds of things. So that's really where the passion for event organizing started. And then as an event organizer myself, I realized that the status quo wasn't very beneficial. We have separate primary market ticketing providers, we have external secondary markets, which also tend to be quite fraudulent, which I'll touch upon later.

03:02

Frank

And then there's also a separate guest list solution. And that's really where the inspiration for Celebratix came about, where I've always been into the blockchain space. I understand where Web3 is going and I fundamentally believe that within three to five years, every single ticket will be issued as an NFT. And Celebratix is going to play a very big role in that. So, yeah, very enthusiastic and excited to tell you guys more about it in this session.

03:28

Nadja

Well, I'm very excited about this topic because I think we talk so often about the use cases for NFTs in the event space, but there's not a lot of people kind of dissecting the issue. So let's start there. Why do we need a new technology? Why is it not sufficient to use the manual? I mean, it's a digital process, but it's still quite manual in the sense it's a way that we've done it for however long. Why are we talking about evolving the way that events and event ticketing are done? What is the issue that we're trying to solve?

04:07

Frank

05:04

Frank

Right, because a PDF, if you make a screenshot of it and you send it to me, we have the exact same ticket, right? There's no ownership involved there whatsoever. And with blockchain ticketing and especially NFT ticketing through Celebratix, the entire notion of the way you look at a ticket just changes. And I think it's really important we have that. Also looking at for example, we're working on another metaverse, but the eventoverse wherein every single event gets its own place within the Celebratix platform, where you can then upload your pictures, you can tag your friends, you can actually be in the environment, maybe even meet somebody like minded before the event or after. When you saw this person you connected with, and that's going to be token gated, right? Because if you're actually going to the event, you have the ticket and then the NFT for the specific event will count as a token gated experience, which is like there's so many different ways and awesome features that we haven't even thought about in this stage, which are going to come online in the years to come.

06:09

Frank

Yeah, and I'm very excited for that. So that's really cool.

06:12

Nadja

Yeah, definitely. Likewise. I mean, I love what you said about not having thought of all of these different use cases. But as you get into it, then all of these possibilities start unfolding. What you are describing sounds to me like it might even replace the concept that we have currently of event apps. I mean, if you attend an event, you have to download the app specifically for the event and that's where you are able to kind of network pre the event as well as during the event. So do you see this new technology and the way that we are going to start implementing NFTs and the token gated communities related to these events? Do you envision it replacing things like event apps?

06:53

Frank

07:49

Frank

Right? So you don't really need these kinds of technologies anymore, which we're solving these issues because they're not an issue anymore. Right? So the way I like to describe it is by saying that we're really addressing the issues at its core by changing the underlying technology infrastructure. Whereas for example, TicketSwap is basically putting a band aid on an issue because that issue is just not relevant with NFT ticketing anymore. So I definitely think that in the long term these kinds of technologies are going to replace the incumbent ones. But yeah, that's going to take a lot of time.

08:22

Nadja

That's very interesting because the solution that you speak of where they so called burn the old NFT either the old PDFs, I mean, this is not really being implemented even at that rudimentary level in a lot of countries where I've attended events. So it's almost like most geographic regions are not even at the stage where they've gotten to that kind of solution. If you think about the adoption, for example, of smartphones on a continent like Africa where most people didn't have access to computers and they didn't have access to laptops, but they skipped that and essentially fast forwarded to smartphones. So it sounds like almost if this kind of technology is going to be implemented, then a lot of countries and a lot of event managers in different countries might even go from a very simplistic way of handling ticketing at the moment and then kind of skipping this growth phase and this web two solution and going straight into web three.

09:28

Nadja

Is this something that you think is going to happen as well? Because of course, if we talk about the adoption of NFTs, the larger conversation around adoption is very complex. But when it comes to solving a real world problem, which event Ticketing definitely is a real world problem that we are dealing with at the moment, it sounds like there's no need to go through the step one, step two, step three in terms of evolving the solution, that people might just go from step one to step three.

10:02

Frank

Yeah, let's hope so 100%. I feel like there's a lot of, for example, Latin American countries which have a lot of issues with this where they can't seem to actually control this secondary market and there's a lot of fraud still. So I definitely think that for them, they might just skip the entire web2, Web 2.5 phase and go straight into the NFT part where it's just safe, simple and secure still. They then need to have the technological infrastructure in place to actually be able to do this. But yeah, we're slowly seeing mainstream adoption there as well. And I think it's also a really interesting point you touched upon Nadja where you said actually solving these real life issues is the most important thing. And that's also what celebrating does, in a sense that I built Celebratix for my three smaller sisters. And that might sound very strange, but my oldest sister, she's 22, the middle one, she's 20 and the youngest one, she's nine years old and the nine year old, she doesn't party yet.

11:02

Frank

But the 20 and 22 year old, they're heavy hitters and if they go to a Friday night event, they don't care if it's a PDF, they don't care if it's an NFT, right? They just want their ticket to be safe, simple and secure. And that's also why with Celebratix, we don't actually touch upon the blockchain and the Web3 and NFT ticketing stuff because people tend to get quite jumpy. So we just have a seamless flow, integrate everything properly and it's all on chain without them actually realizing it. And that's very interesting to see how we can I mean, that's how we're going to onboard the next billion users in Web3.

11:37

Nadja

Well, amen to that. So on that note, often in Web3, we talk about the challenges surrounding user adoption and if you're a B2B company, of course, then the onboarding of business clients. So what solutions do you currently focus on in terms of onboarding people in a seamless way? And very often this might look like the technology being invisible, not calling it NFTs. So what solutions have you been working with thus far?

12:09

Frank

Yeah. So the biggest thing for us is actually the Celebratix app. And for those of you who haven't downloaded it or seen it yet, definitely do, because it's going to give you a very good point of very clear insights as to how we're actually solving things and the way we're visualizing it as well. Because every ticket we have on the, everything is on chain. Right? So we're built on Polychron, so everything is an NFT. But then the thing is, how are you going to actually prevent people from making screenshots, which is now impossible anymore. Right, because it's not a PDF anymore. So yeah, it's all unchanged. So the way we visualize, for example, that part is by dynamically changing the QR code. And that's basically only a psychological trick in the sense that on the blockchain it doesn't change every 3 seconds. Right. The QR code, it just remains a QR code, which is a link to your NFT, which you can then show at the door to gain entrance to the venue.

13:01

Frank

Right. But it is a way in which we showcase to our, for example, my 22 year old sister who doesn't really care about the underlying infrastructure of either a PDF or an NFT, but really only about that. It's not going to be fraudulent, that it's going to 100% safe, that she's going to have a collectible after the event, which is a big thing as well. We touched upon the token gating already. Yeah. And we haven't even scratched the surface yet as to what's possible. So that's something I'm very excited for.

13:33

Nadja

So I'm curious because if you think about the secondary market, I mean, very often the conversation is around fair pricing. I mean, you might buy the ticket for X amount, but then when it gets to the secondary market, the price ten X's or 20 X's, whatever the case may be. Not to mention that as a buyer in the secondary market, I'm not actually always sure if the ticket that I am buying is the authentic one. So from the authenticity perspective, that's an issue that blockchain quite easily solves. But are you also working around the idea of pricing being more fair or is that not something that you're involved with at this moment?

14:11

Frank

Yeah, definitely something we take into account. Because the last thing you want, let's say that you're like one of my events. Let's say NOA, we do the Friday night at the Chicago Social Club, which is one of the biggest nightclubs in Amsterdam. It's like the Burgheim of Amsterdam. And then the thing is, if for my brand, I have these people who purchase ten tickets and then they buy them for €15, and then they resell them for 70, I don't want that. Because as a brand, that really isn't very nice, because then people are paying way too much, way more than I would want them to pay in that sense. So that's why at Celebratix, we've decided to actually cap the total amount possible to resell your tickets with 20%. So when you buy a ticket, you can only make an extra 20% off it when it gets sold out.

15:04

Frank

Also, you cannot sell it for less than 20% of the €15. Right. So that's a very big point for us because we really want to make sure that we keep the brand value intact of our customers. Because at the end of the day, we're B2B, B2C in a sense that our event organizers are the customers and then the event attendees are the ones actually making the purchase.

15:27

Nadja

Yeah, that's wonderful. So I'm curious then, in terms of being B2C, what has been the easiest experience process in terms of onboarding? How are you finding the response from event organizers and how are you finding the response from actual users?

15:45

Frank

Yeah, that's a great question. Nadja and I actually just had lunch with an event organizer here in Amsterdam, and the beauty of it is that we're not really pitching, right. It's just you talk about what they're currently using and you talk about what is currently out there, the problems they're having, and then basically the solution as to what they're experiencing. Right. It's always a very fun conversation because you touch upon so many different things you can actually help each other with, and I think that's very telling. Also, for the Web3 industry in general, people just really want to help each other out and basically solve the issues they have right now at hand. And that's also like for me as an event organizer, I have quite a lot of network in the space in Amsterdam. I mean, making NOA my own use case and having been the own first paying customer was a very good starting point because we get the use cases and we get to test the platform and we get to build what it actually is that other event organizers need.

16:51

Frank

And now we're starting to scale up, which is very fun part of the journey.

16:58

Nadja

So in terms of scaling, because it sounds like at the moment you've been or at least this is what it sounds like, maybe I'm completely wrong, but it sounds like you have been focusing first on the local market in Amsterdam or in the Netherlands. So what is your current focus and then what are your plans in terms of scalability and expansion to other regions?

17:19

Frank

Yeah, so we started in Amsterdam because that's our home base, and that was low hanging fruit for us to actually make a dent. We're definitely going international very soon. We had a couple of very good talks with the Nordic Blockchain Association as well. So we're looking into the Nordics. I know that Belgium is a very interesting market for that's just Europe, right? I mean, we also briefly touched already upon, for example, Latin America, there's definitely a lot of interesting options and opportunities there and it's also about choosing the want for me. I'm not in a hurry. I need to get the solid use cases going. And I know that within three to five years every single ticket will be issued as an NFT. Right. I'm not really focusing on doing a lot of outbound reach at the moment, as I will. I know that at some point it's going to be inbound as well, which is definitely the way to go in the long term.

18:26

Nadja

Yeah, there's certainly very exciting times up ahead, especially in this space, because ticketing is something that everyone is already using on a daily basis. And I think as you say, there's not really so much convincing to be done if everyone can clearly understand, especially if they're event organizers, they can clearly understand what the problem is and are actually dying for a solution. So in terms of if I think about myself and not necessarily me as a person, but any individual who attends an event, you might get the ticket as a PDF. You get to the event, you have your little badge that you get and then that is the end of it. You throw it in the drawer when you get home or it's saved on your email. Are you also looking into the concept of a digital identity that then, for example, me as a user, if you go onto my profile or whatever the case may be, that you are able to see some of the events that I've attended.

19:29

Nadja

Is this also an area that you are looking into or is it purely transactional from event to event?

19:36

Frank

Yeah, I know. Great question. And this is something I'm very passionate about because I have so many different PDFs of events I attended in my email over the years and that's just basically a shame because I don't really get to enjoy them anymore afterwards. Right. For example, in the Netherlands we have Lowlands, which is very big. And then if you go to Lowlands, it has 60,000 people. You get this bracelet, right? You put it on your right arm and people wear it for months even after the event. But yeah, at some point it's going to smell and they have to cut it off, right? Because you're not going to keep that thing on forever. But basically the digital equivalent of that is what we're helping people with, right? So every single ticket now is not a PDF anymore, which you scan at the venue and never look at again.

20:21

Frank

Every single ticket is an NFT, which means that after you've scanned your ticket at the door, the ticket actually becomes a digital collectible. And that's something we also showcase in the app in the Celebratix's wallet, where you then have the collectible to look at forever as a very cool memory. So it's a digital memorabilia part on the one end which is nice. I mean, ever since the hunters and gatherers part in the prehistorical times, people have been gathering stuff, right? So, like, now, having a digital collectible to commemorate a certain event is extraordinary. But that also opens a lot of doors, which we already touched upon earlier, where if you then have this digital collectible in your Celebratix wallet and you want to join the event, offers of that particular event, which is long term, but definitely possible now, then you get certain extra benefits and perks and loyalty rewards.

21:18

Frank

As an event organizer, you can actually upsell your audience with, say, merchandise items or drinks. So there's really a lot of very cool ways that can actually be leveraged. So that's very exciting.

21:30

Nadja

Yeah. You just reminded me my trans festival days, when I literally did wear bracelets for months on end. I completely forgot about that. So that's a very interesting question then, in the sense that if I think back to my younger days and I really wanted people I mean, the reason that you would wear these bracelets is so that you can make this connection. People are able to see, okay, this is who you are and kind of what you identify with. But do you think this is a generational thing, or do you think a similar use case for digital collectibles then applies to older generations? That might not be as intent on connecting with the same sort of community, like minded community, like younger people do. But do you think there's also a use case for older generations? If I say older, I mean, like even myself in my 30s, where it's not necessarily the same, let's say motivation, as I had in my 20s, but I still would, for whatever reason, I might want to display these digital event collectibles.

22:36

Nadja

Do you see that the same principle applies across different generations? And if so, what are the differences in terms of why people would want others to see these digital collectibles?

22:49

Frank

Yeah, a great question. I definitely think that generationally speaking. Like I said, we've been gathering stuff for centuries, right? So whether it's a stamp collection or whether it's a Bored Ape right. I mean, there's definitely a big difference in price there. But you get the point where it's just the notion of actually gathering something, and that something is yours that's across all generations. Very interesting. I also feel like it really depends on what kind of thing you're gathering. So, for example, for us, with a NOA event, it's a monthly recurring event, which then you might attend once or twice. So it's a cool memorabilia, but let's say that you're in this nightclub every mean it's not that special then, so you wouldn't really care about gathering it. Another cool example, I think, is when Michael Jordan actually made his entrance in the we all at that point, he was already the best basketball player in the college basketball teams, but then nobody actually knew that he was going to turn out to be the amazing legend he actually ended up being, right.

24:05

Frank

Where he actually won six rings, six championships. So if you actually had the ticket of when he entered the NBA and you were in the stadium that moment, maybe at the moment you didn't really care about gathering that ticket, but yeah, you would have liked to be there, but you weren't a super fan as they might have been ten or 15 years later afterwards. Right. So it really depends on the actual event that you're trying to gather something for. And then obviously, also, if you're not that big of a fan of Michael Jordan in this instance, maybe then you can sell your ticket. Right. Because these people, they have the physical ticket, how you're going to know that's the original one? But if they would have been working with Celebratix at the time, and person in chair number six in row 16, seats two, had a specific ticket to the event, well, maybe now an ultra-fan of Michael Jordan wants to buy it for ten times the original price.

25:03

Frank

Right. So there's also a very big new market opening up there.

25:08

Nadja

Yeah, that's a really great point. Because if you think about Woodstock, for example, I don't think many people attending Woodstock understood at the time that this was going to be a pivotal cultural moment that decades later people would be referring to within the cultural context. And the fact that you were there, that says something, whatever you wanted to say. And so really, going forward, I mean, exactly to your point, you don't know at the time of being involved with something at the time of attending an event, the possible significance that it might have down the line. So that's a really good point. So in terms of I want to kind of stay on this topic of the digital collectibles the digital memorabilia and then slightly move a little also to NFTs as a concept, because there was recently, I think it was this week, where we saw news headlines.

26:02

Nadja

I mean, the media loves hype, and the media especially likes hype if it's something overly dramatic. So we've seen so many people talk about 95% of NFTs on our worthless, and it means the NFT market is dead. So, of course, especially those in the audience who listens to the show every week and knows that the people that we speak to, the builders that we speak to, are building solutions using NFTs that far exceed PFPs and NFT art. But if you think about the concept of NFTs, what do you typically tell someone if they don't know what an NFT is?

26:44

Frank

Yeah, so good question. I tend to stay away, actually from this discussion because to me, the actual NFT part doesn't really add the value in their perception. Right. The NFT part actually being blockchain based enables you to actually hold the value of a certain asset digitally, but the perceived value of, for example, an event where you get right now we're exploring lifetime tickets. And then if you were to go to an event forever, then that specific NFT holds a lot of value. But we don't really call them NFTs because they're VIP collectibles. Right. So we really try to pitch the advantages of the concept and not the concept in itself. And I think that's a very big part.

27:37

Nadja

Yeah, I mean that's really interesting because I think what I've seen, especially with companies that are specifically working with the B2C market. I mean, I know that you also, of course have the B2B layer. But with the B2C companies tend to stay away from the terminology. But then I'm curious in your discussions with event organizers, is that then also terminology that you avoid using or is it more important to those individuals organizations to understand the underlying technology?

28:13

Frank

Yeah, good question. So specifically for our B2B customers, since celebrating B2C, it's very important that first of all, financially it's an interesting, more interesting value proposition in the sense that through NFT ticketing, we're able to cut out separate middlemen. Right, I touched upon this earlier where the status quo is a separate primary market, separate secondary market, and a separate guest solution. So Celebratix is the one stop shop for these events and not leveraging a centralized database with a decentralized one. And next to that, you really want a safe, smooth, and secure way of actually issuing these tickets. Right? So at Celebratix, we're really focusing on creating a hassle free experience. And the combination of the two is absolutely vital for these event organizers to actually start using Celebratix as our ticketing provider.

29:08

Nadja

Yeah, no, absolutely. So then I'm curious. You said earlier that in, let's say five years or so, that event ticketing is going to be the way to go NFTs, and being on chain is going to be not necessarily NFTs. I mean, it might not, but for sure blockchain technology is where it's going to be at. So what do you think is going to be the trajectory to get there? Because at the moment, if you mention any of these technologies, you get a lot of pushback. You might choose to not mention these technologies, but then they would still or would there be certain steps that people would need to follow in order to kind of move away from the old and onto the new? What are the stumbling blocks that you think is going to have to overcome in order to get to this future where event ticketing is going to be on Chain exclusively?

30:05

Nadja

Or is there a possibility that perhaps the two are going to coexist side by side, that you might have the traditional way of ticketing that's. Going to continue for however long to come. How do you envision that future specifically?

30:22

Frank

So I definitely think that the way to move forward and actually onboarding the next billion users in web3 is by creating the use cases that actually make a difference. And for ticketing, that's a very clear one in the sense that the status quo is not very beneficial to either the event organizers or the event attendees, in the sense that the event attendees are not guaranteed a safe ticket and the event organizers therefore bear the burden of, for example, fake ticketing. So I definitely think that every single ticket will be on chain and thus an NFT ticket in three to five years. That said, we do have a long way ahead and there's definitely some big obstacles there, where first of all, there's a very big reputational factor for event organizers. So as you can imagine, if you do like my co-founder, he does the biggest festival during Kings Day in the Netherlands, which for those of you outside of Europe is more like the 4 July in America.

31:29

Frank

So he does 40,000 people in Olympic Stadium during the 27 April Kings Day in the Netherlands. And you can imagine if you actually go live with these tickets or if during the event the actual ticketing scanner doesn't work. So these people are stuck in front of the door who can't access, there's a very big trust layer and like a trust barrier to entry, right? Because if you really have any sort of issue during the pre-sales or during the event or maybe even afterwards, that's a very crucial part. So I do think that the change towards NFT ticketing might be slower than we expect right now. I do think it's inevitable in the sense that PDF ticketing is an inferior way to NFT ticketing because there's just some issues which need to be taken care of. But once that is actually the case and also these big event organizers understand that it's actually possible to do it through NFT ticketing, then we're going to see the mass adoption and it's going to be on chain only because that's just the future.

32:43

Nadja

So then being the naysayer for a moment, because this is an argument that anyone working with NFTs hears at some point or another. There's all this talk about NFTs being environmentally unsustainable. I mean, we've heard this argument, we've heard often from people not quite understanding the technology behind it, not quite understanding truly what the environmental impact is of blockchain versus any number of other oil and gas, for example. But so what are your thoughts on this argument that no, this is not a good way to proceed because at the moment we have PDFs, it takes nothing. It's the standard way of doing pretty much everything in the business world versus, okay, now we're going on chain. And so this is going to contribute even more to environmental issues and well, we are trying to solve these issues and so NFTs might not be the solution to contribute to the solution to the climate change issue that we are facing.

33:46

Frank

Yeah, great question. And on the sustainability part, that's something I'm very passionate about myself. That's also actually why we chose to build on polygon in the first place, because polygon is actually going to be carbon negative, which means that's definitely not as hurtful in the sense. But I mean, still, you're going to be digital, right? So like changing from PDFs to NFTs in the sense that a PDF is a static QR code where an NFT is a dynamic one which lives on chain. It's inevitable that we're going to move into a digitalized world. But we can do so in a fashion that is the least harmful for the environment. And that's something we should strive for every step of the way.

34:34

Nadja

Let's get all the negative arguments out the way before we continue. So one argument, of course, is the environmental sustainability aspect, but then there's also the regulatory issue. So another argument that people building in the space often of course hear is if you're building your company on the premise that you're using these technologies, but this is very much in flux and it might be that tomorrow NFTs are regulated to an extent where are governments might say that it becomes unusable. What are your thoughts on this?

35:09

Frank

Yeah, okay. So for us, the reason we choose to build on polygon, the reason we choose to be blockchain based, is because I fundamentally believe in the interoperability of our digital assets. And what I mean by that is that if my oldest sister, who is 22 years old, wants to resell her ticket on Instagram, which is becoming an NFT marketplace or OpenSea or celebrating in that sense, or basically any platform out there, it's going to be safe. And that's something we don't have right now, where if you sell your tickets through Instagram or you buy them through somebody who you don't know, you don't actually 100% understand or will actually know if it's a safe ticket, if it's an actual PDF you can use to enter the venue. And from a government and regulatory point of view, I don't believe they will interfere with such a process.

36:09

Frank

In the Netherlands, we actually have this website which is called the rough translation to English is understandyourticket.nl Right? So what they actually tell you is please be wary and please be mindful of where you buy your ticket because you might be a victim to fraud if you buy it somewhere where you haven't verified the actual seller. So also from a regulatory point of view, it could even make more sense for them to make sure that every single ticket is unchained because of the fact that it's 100% traceable and transparent every step of the way.

36:57

Nadja

Sorry, I had an issue unmuting myself. Technology is always fun until it doesn't work. So, Frank, I'm curious. Then we talk about NFTs in this case, NFTs, and we talk about the future possibilities of it's going to revolutionize this industry and it's going to revolutionize that industry. But so much of these roadmaps are really long and it's more visionary in many cases than it is practical because the stumbling blocks on the way to adoption, stumbling blocks on the way to implementation, they are such that it is quite a gamble. It might work, it might not work, it might take off, it might not. So why do you think that utilities like Event Ticketing? Because of course, this is something that we are already experiencing in daily life. It's problems that we are experiencing ourselves and it's solutions that we all, in one sense or another, want.

37:59

Nadja

But I think you touched on such an important point right now in terms of regulation. As much as there's all this talk about regulation, if it comes to the actual implementation of a solution that is going to safeguard users, then the conversation around whether something should be placed under a microscope by governments becomes more of a non issue. Because ultimately the conversation is around safeguarding users in whatever industry that we are talking about. So why do you think that events is I'm kind of trying to think from a perspective of not necessarily a regulator in the traditional sense of the word, but there's a lot of gatekeepers. There's a lot of gatekeepers in different industries that might not want the evolution of a technology or a business process or an industry even, because what's working is working, let's say, for a small number of people, or the roadmap is not so clear, the technology is not so much understood.

39:07

Nadja

So you've touched on this previously, but why do you think a use case like Events is something that is so much clearer in terms of, yes, today this is all very new, but literally by tomorrow we might start adopting this and we don't have to call it NFTs, we don't have to explain how the blockchain works. What makes Events, let's say, special in that regard? Because I think, as you said earlier, onboarding the next billion users onto web3, this is something that everyone is dreaming of and so many builders are very intent on making that happen in whatever the industry or the application that they are working with. But what makes Events special in the sense that it's quite easy to imagine that very soon people might be using this technology, whether they are event organizers so b to b, or whether they are customers just attending these events.

40:07

Frank

Yeah, great question, Nadja. Thank you for that. I think the event industry and specifically the intersection with blockchain is very special. And it's special in the sense that it's not actually the gamble that you referred to earlier in your question because it kind of makes sense. I would argue. So when you look at web1, where the tickets were physical ones, and web2, where the tickets are now digitalized as PDFs, and now web3, where they're actually blockchain based, and therefore NFTs, I think it's a very logical evolution in the evolution of the Internet that we're actually going to see these NFT tickets happening because they're more safe, because we're actually addressing issues at its core instead of putting bandages on the PDF era. Right, which is for example, TicketSwap, what is doing? And then, yeah, I definitely agree with the way you use the word gatekeeping in the sense that, for example, for a TicketSwap, if they do not move towards this new Web3 way of issuing tickets, their basic income stems from creating and burning PDF tickets.

41:20

Frank

42:26

Frank

Right? So Europe is actually doing a very good job on that and we actually want to work together with these regulators to create and have the biggest impact possible. And we will have that impact because NFT ticketing and event with blockchain is very special in that intersection.

42:43

Nadja

Yeah, well, I mean that's wonderful to hear. It just made me realize I wanted to get into this a little bit earlier, but now is as good as time as any. So you were mentioning earlier that event organizers are then also able to sell merchandise to event goers. So how does that look like within the app or where does it happen? Because it really sounds as though at the moment it's like a once off transactional relationship. I mean, I buy a ticket, I attend the event, that's the end of it. They might send me marketing emails afterwards and I might unsubscribe or market a spam or just add it to my 10,000 a day email inbox that I already have. But it sounds like the approach that you are taking is really to build more of a long term relationship between event organizers and people attending these events.

43:36

Nadja

So what does that look like? At the moment and what are your future plans in terms of expanding this aspect?

43:44

Frank

So the biggest thing for us is that we provide value to our end customers. And I think that's a very important part because how do you actually add value to your end customers? You do that by providing utilities through these tickets. Right. And merchandise is just an example of the utilities you can have for a specific ticket. So let's say you go to this Lowlands festival and you buy this specific ticket which is a bit more expensive than the regular ones, but it does enable you to have either VIP access or get this drink at the bar which you love, or you get this merchandise item. I mean, there's a lot of different ways in which you can then either reward your most loyal audience or actually create new fans for life. Right. I think the utility in that sense is very interesting. The way we show that in the app is by creating these digital collectibles after the tickets have been scanned at the venue and therefore keeping them forever.

44:45

Frank

Right. So the digital memorabilia part of the actual events with an amazing artwork for themselves.

44:54

Nadja

Yeah. I'm very excited to seeing this come together. It's a good future up ahead, I think, in all areas of the technology. But certainly I think from the event aspect, because as I said, it's a use case that all of us are already experiencing the problem aspect. And so really, now is the time for solutions. So then, in terms of your own roadmap as a company, where are you currently and what are your sort of short term and medium term? I mean, long term, of course, as you said in the beginning, there's so many possibilities that haven't been even been started to be explored yet. But in terms of the short and the medium term, what are you doing and what are the plans up ahead?

45:41

Frank

So, from a roadmap point of view, we have a couple of very exciting features we'll be integrating shortly. One of the things I'm very excited about and which is something I also touched upon with Lawrence during the Nordic Blockchain conference in the panel, there is the stable diffusion AI. So what we're integrating now is every single ticket can then have its own life through AI. In a sense that every QR code based on something, an event organizer uploads in our dashboard in the back end, can be created on its own. Right. So, like, every single ticket has its own QR code with its own artwork, with its own story, with its own experience in that sense. So that's something we're very excited about. We're scaling up our processes as well. We're looking to do about a million tickets next year, which is definitely something feasible for us.

46:40

Frank

And also really expanding globally is very important for us. One thing we're also doing, which is actually going to launch in January next year is the Killer Wheels Show. And I don't know if you've heard about that, but CoinMarketCap co-produced a show where they created this shark tank for Web3 and Blockchain projects. And I'm now finally allowed to say that I participated with Celebratix. I cannot say how it ended, but definitely keep an eye out on my Twitter in that sense, where from January onwards it's going to air on national American television and also with streaming services. So, yeah, that's going to be streamed in over 55 countries. So, yeah, I cannot name the actual brands yet, but it's going to be very exciting.

47:38

Nadja

Wow, congratulations. Definitely looking forward to seeing that and just learning more about it when the time is right. So I want to give the audience a chance to ask some questions as well. And I see we've already got a couple of them coming in. So if you do have a question for Frank, you can just DM it to the AdLunam Twitter handle or alternatively just tweet it to us on our account AdLunam Inc. So I'm going to go into some of the questions that I see here. So from Ismullah the biggest challenge we have in Blockchain remains security. What measures do you have in place to protect users from fraudulent ticket listings or scams when making purchases through Blockchain? I think you've touched on this earlier on in the show, but maybe if you can just encapsulate just very briefly on that specifically.

48:35

Frank

Yeah, that's a great question. So thank you for that. The most important thing we do is we actually verify everyone's identity before creating during the creation of an account. So you fill in your first name, last name and telephone number and then based on that information, you buy a ticket and also create a listing so we're 100% safe and secure in that sense. So there's no more bots and scalping involved either, which is a very big part for us.

49:04

Nadja

And then I have a question from Notcha66 here, or I'm terrible at pronouncing usernames. What do you believe are the key factors driving mainstream adoption of Web3 technologies? Again, I think you have touched on this but would love to just for you to succinctly, perhaps just talk about this in terms of what you guys are doing. So what do you believe are the key factors driving mainstream adoption of Web3 tech and how do you see this playing out in the coming years?

49:36

Frank

So the main part for us and the key factors that will be driving this mainstream adoption is first of all, by not screaming NFTs or blockchain or anything of the Sense, where we really focus on pitching the advantages of the concept and not the concept in itself. And that's definitely where we're seeing the most traction right now. And that's where I believe the most traction will be coming from over the years because we don't need to actually touch upon the technology if we just create a better customer experience in a more safe, simple and secure way.

50:14

Nadja

And then I have a question from Snow. What are some of the biggest challenges and obstacles you've encountered while building and scaling Celebratix in this web3 space?

50:28

Frank

Okay, nice. That's a cool question, Snow. Thank you for that. The biggest challenges we've encountered so far. I think actually identifying the problems we're solving was quite a tough nut to crack because, like, as an event organizer myself, I realized there were some issues that needed to be needed to be resolved. But actually putting the piece of the puzzle together where you then create the NFT ticketing part based on Polygon, which then resolves the fraud issues. And then seeing how you can make your solution tailor made to the features or the requirements that these event organizers have which also differ. Right. So there is a couple of other blockchain ticketing providers out there currently trying to solve similar issues. But if you're at Sharon and you sell out 60,000 tickets in the Ziggo Dome, then you have a different need than actually the Friday nightclub event organizer who just wants to facilitate 700 people for their night to let them have a great time.

51:44

Frank

So I think it was quite we did more than 50, maybe 60 interviews with these event organizers and customers, which then really created for us the list of features and really gave a lot of insight, valuable insight as to what we need to actually overcome these issues. That was a very big learning for us.

52:06

Nadja

So then I have an interesting question here from Maragi. So have you ever attended an event where your NFT or your ticket was an NFT?

52:21

Frank

I mean, at the Nordic Blockchain Conference? It wasn't yet, but it will be next year. So that's going to be a very interesting thing. So keep an eye out for that. But for me, I really love my dance festivals, but those haven't been an NFT yet. So I'm looking forward to experiencing that as an NFT myself.

52:44

Nadja

Well, me as well, very certainly. And I hope you come to a market near me quite soon so that I can experience this for myself in real time as well. Yeah, I mean, Frank, I think what you're building is very interesting in the sense that you can speak to this about pretty much any person. And without going into the details of the NFTs, people get this. So question from me then, in terms of explaining what you do as a company, how often have you experienced that people might not understand why this is a good solution? Or do you generally across the board find that people really just get why there is a need for this to exist?

53:28

Frank

So the main talks that we're currently having are with event organizers. So when we actually talk to these event organizers, we don't really need to pitch them every single detail of Celebratix. We can generally speak to them in a sense that we just tell them, okay, well, we just basically ask them questions. What are you currently using for your primary market? What are you using for your secondary market? How do you like your guest list solution? And then after a lot of questions, it really turns out that there are better ways to actually host your event. And that's very exciting because then you basically start looking for solutions together. And then Celebratix, in that sense is a very nice way to show them that it can be done differently as well. And then they're quite open to that. So I don't really need to explain them all the nitty gritty details, and I like to keep it that way because we don't really need to dive into the difficult stuff as long as they understand that there is a better way to do this thing than they're currently doing it.

54:37

Nadja

And I think that's a very good point, because very often when people are building a solution for any particular market, the approach is we talk about product, market fit, but it's not often that you find that the process of building a company is so open and transparent in the sense, look, we're all still figuring this out together. So it's not a top down approach like, look, here's the solution and you got to have this, and I'm going to sell you hard on why you need this, because I think it's very reflective of the Web3 industry in general that we understand that this is a process, it's an evolution. We're not going to figure it all out today. But on the other hand, if we wait until we have everything down and everything is perfect, then nothing is going to evolve to the point where we can truly get there.

55:28

Nadja

So maybe a final question. I'm just mindful of time. So from Gloria. Do you face many challenges in places which aren't allowed to use NFTs or crypto payments? And are most countries open to the tech or more restrictive?

55:45

Frank

No, we haven't really experienced that people aren't open to this because in my experience, most people definitely are looking into different ways to do the same things. So that's very exciting. And from internationally speaking, we haven't really experienced anything of that sort either. So people are generally very receptive to the new way of actually doing this. So that's very nice.

56:11

Nadja

Well, yeah, I have to say I'm definitely looking forward to I mean, I attend a lot of events and there's been a lot of talk of implementing these kind of things, but it's great to envision a future where I can truly go to an event and this is the process that's going to be followed. You have spoken and mentioned a lot about the events in the Netherlands that you've been involved with. How do you think that this is going to play out in terms of early adoption, do you see this as something that because very often when there's a Web3 solution, the approach is to kind of start in Web3 and then branch out from there. But do you think this is something where we might see a lot of this being used by other industries and kind of Web3 coming on later on in the process?

57:02

Nadja

Because it's quite interesting that in the Web3 space, we've been speaking about this a lot, but we're not actually seeing it at Web3 events where, as you say, you can talk about this idea and this concept with pretty much any event organizer in any industry and they are receptive. So how do you think in terms of user adoption, are we going to see that everyone is just going to start using it, including Web3? Or in this case, Web3might even lag behind, which is not always very understandable, but yeah. What has your experience been so far in terms of speaking to different industries, including Web3 Three? And who has the biggest appetite to say, look, let's go starting today?

57:46

Frank

Yeah, great question. When Lawrence and I actually attended the Nordic Blockchain Conference, which mind you, is the biggest blockchain conference in the Nordics, they were actually using a Web2 way of issuing their tickets. So that was quite funny to see in the sense that the Web3 conferences might actually be the ones lagging behind, even though they are the ones who actually proclaim to be the biggest drivers of this adoption. But they also understand and they also really know the key advantages of changing to Web3 and blockchain. So that's also why most likely will be changing around. So, no, definitely I feel like most adoption will come from the actual general mainstream events for us because that's where we have the biggest foot in the door and which is the lowest hanging fruit for us at this stage. And who knows, yeah, maybe at some point every single ticket will actually be issued as an NFT.

58:50

Nadja

I'm very much looking forward to the day where I attend a Web3 event and there's actual Web3 tech being used in support of the event because it really feels to me like we talk the talk, but we don't always walk the walk. But it's still early days. So, yeah, we've come to the end of the hour. Thank you so much for your time. I think it's been very enlightening for those in the audience as well, just to see, as I said, we talk about adoption as something happening down the line, but there's really, truly things that we can get started with today. So I hope that those of you listening either live on Twitter Spaces at the moment or I guess on X Spaces as it is called now, or listening to the podcast afterwards. It's a great feeling to walk away from a conversation knowing we don't have to wait ten years to see the implementation of something.

59:38

Nadja

So if folks want to follow up with you, engage with you, stay connected with you, where's the best place to do so?

59:47

Frank

Yeah, so definitely make sure to check out my Twitter. I try to post a lot there. And also on Instagram, I have a broadcast channel about Web3 where I post a lot of updates, so be sure to check out the Instagram as well. And yeah, very much looking forward to staying engaged and in contact with everybody. Yeah, it was a very nice talk. Nadja, thank you so much for your amazing questions and this deep dive into NFT Ticketing and how it's revolutionizing events, that was really nice.

Nadja

Likewise, Frank. It was lovely to connect with you. And I was supposed to be at the conference with Lawrence. It didn't end up working out in terms of just travel plans, but very excited to be meeting with you at an event using Celebratix as the way of ticketing in the future. And for the audience, thank you so much for tuning in today for joining us for this very interesting conversation and I will catch you again next week for another future. Well, no, that didn't work out. For another episode of The Future of NFTs, brought to you by AdLunam. Cheers guys. Have a great day.