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20: Marcie – “What’s in Your Secret Shoebox?”
Episode 2028th January 2022 • Birth Moms Real Talk • D. Yvonne Rivers
00:00:00 01:02:26

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Marcie expresses her miraculous find in the closet in a shoebox. Hear about her premise and story in her book, “ The Shoebox Effect “. We learn about how Marcie “buried” memories from years before as many birth mothers. Her beloved pet leads her to explore and uncover all the secrets and pain in her life.

Transcripts

BMRT - Marcie

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What is a birth mom on birth? Mother is a child is a pro is a mother who gave birth, who did not raise her child. So that's the definition. We've got an awesome birth mom here today. More see, welcome. How are you today?

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[00:00:58] Yvonne: have you. So I'm going to pretty [00:01:00] much turn it over to you.

Tell us where you're calling in from. Tell us your story. We'll get more details. I may ask additional questions. We want you to share your story to the world. So once you start by tell us a little bit about growing up and you back background and moving us up to the plot in which you became that

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Well, thank you so much again for having me on and I'm so happy and proud to share my story with all of you. Um, yes. I reside here in Southern Indiana, first of all, uh, along the Ohio river directly across the river from Louisville, Kentucky. So, uh, they call it Kentucky Kentuckiana and I grew up, I

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Yeah, Kentucky Ana is

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Uh, now I come from a broken home where my parents divorced in 1960. I was five years old. So I was uniquely, I was raised by my father and then later on a stepmother and I was only able to see my mother, like two weeks in the summer. So you can imagine what that was like to be separated from your mother at a young age.

Be raised in a broken home in the sixties when it really wasn't even cool to get divorced, let alone a man have custody of three children.

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[00:02:48] Marcie: Yes. I have an older sister, Judy and um, my brother bushes is the middle and I'm the baby.

Okay. So that's where my

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Uh, I was lost. I was broken. I just. No, I was just dismantled and I didn't understand, I had no direction whatsoever. And, you know, I was just searching for something to fill this hole up because I, I, you know, I wanted to fill the mother wound cause I lost mine. So,

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Cause you were eight, not 18. You said you went to see your sister, so where you're at 18 at that time 18.

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It was such a big deal back then. Can we say

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[00:04:10] Marcie: secret secrets? So in five years, My belief systems started to kick in right then and there. Okay. Um, and my sister became my mommy. She was the replacement for my mommy that I lost. And sadly Judy would go on to leave the home in the next three years and that I lost her.

aced, but I couldn't, I just [:

I was just wanting to fit. That whole now

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[00:05:33] Marcie: of the loss?

And I'm glad you brought that up because you know, I can remember on my rare visit with my mother, that she would bring me back to, to my home and drop me off. And I would be so sad because she was leaving me and I would begin to cry. And when that happened, that was not a good thing. I found out very quickly that I couldn't be happy when I came back from

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That's not a good thing. Right. So I learned to close off and I couldn't share with my father, these, these good things. And so, and it was, it was very, very difficult and yeah, it did. I started to, to shut off and shut down. Um, and I had, you know, back then he didn't, there was no therapy and right. No one just said, honey, are you hurting, honey?

What can I do? And I did have an aunt. Um, that was, I was very close to, that helped me when my mother first left. And she took me in under her wing and, and was the closest thing to a mother that I had. That was my aunt Helen. But, um, as I grew up, you know, I just, um, I didn't didn't think that I had. Issues other than I was missing my mother.

And that was just life and, you know, toughen up and get

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[00:07:00] Yvonne: Now, let me ask you, were, those words said to you just, as you mentioned, no one came to you and say, you know, ah, can they help you or what's going on? Those are those hurts and lifelong traumas that I'll we laugh with. And so, as you said, you couldn't be happy after coming back from meeting your mom.

Did you, did you, did you, could you show your happiness just in your own little world without talking to other people?

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And, you know, she would, she used that. Um, this, you know, this precious treasure, that's where you can go when you feel scared when you, you know, if aunt Helen isn't around, if you know, so he was my confidence.

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Now, it doesn't make up for the hurt that we're going through, but we do what we know to do. That's right. Yeah. Yeah. So continue on.

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I was very blessed to have this, this wonderful stepmother, but she too, um, you know, Her habits and her belief system was, you know, don't make your father mad. Don't argue with your father, just, you know, conform. And we do things behind his back. And, you know, because she never, he had, daddy had a lot of anger [00:09:00] issues.

He was a war, two vet, and his, he had his own trauma. He, he came home at the age of 14 and his father had committed suicide and he

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[00:09:18] Marcie: then you end up at 17 years old being in IWA Jima. Yeah. That's

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And that's why her, is that why he feel as if she had that passive? Let's not upset. Yes. Okay. Yes. Okay.

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And she was my cheerleader that whole time. And [00:10:00] so, like I said, I was very close to her and blessed, but by the time I reached 18 years old, I wanted out of the house and that's where I ended up. Well, I went to my mother's in Indianapolis, uh, first and spent some time with her, but I was so mad at her at that point that I just, I just couldn't find my way.

And I just, she bought me a bus ticket and sent me out to my sister and said, why don't you spend the summer with your sister? And then let's revisit it. Um, because she was trying to give me at that point. I'll help you get a car, I'll help you get into college. She had a nice home. She wanted to do all those things and I just kinda felt like it was too late.

Wow. It was really difficult

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[00:10:49] Marcie: Yes. Um, the, well, not during that time, really? I don't find this out actually. And of course it's a little bit of a spoiler alert, but I don't find that [00:11:00] out until she comes to live with me, um, in 2018.

Oh

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[00:11:06] Marcie: after my step, she marries and she was married to, they both had great marriages. Uh long-lasting marriages, both of them. So I say I grew up with two sets of parents. Okay. Okay. But, um, yeah, it wasn't until mom came to live with me and that I got the full story and it all starts. With a shoe box,

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My right. Yeah. Yeah, we can. We're going to get to that shoe box effect, testing name of Marcy's books. She's going to talk about that. Well, let's move on. You're 18 there. You now you was with your mom during the summer, then you were going on a bus to your sister. So talk more about leading into when you became pregnant.

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[00:12:00] through this part. Okay. Um, I was 18 years old and I was visiting my sister and my sister's husband. Suppose this would be my brother-in-law. His brother was the same age as I was. So it was all, wouldn't it be cute if Marcy and bill got together and it was just, he, we were not compatible at all.

I was just in, I was a hot mess and I was angry, but the next thing I know, I'm pregnant at 18, so we got married. Um,

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Okay. Okay. All right. All right.

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And

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[00:13:21] Marcie: No, I wasn't pregnant, pregnant. This was my first child. Okay. So I had a baby and, but I was miserable, like I said, and I was just a mess. And Roger, who is, was the love of my life, walks back into my life after the birth of

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Yeah. So, so you had your first child, uh, with, that was on Rogers. You'll love your life. Let's get to name streets all over your life. So he comes back and your life after he had your first child. Okay. Let's take it from there.

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[00:14:00] And this is all taking place in Pennsylvania. And I wanted out of this marriage that, you know, just to me, it was just a contract to legitimize a birth that's, that's all it was to me.

And, um, anyway, Roger comes into my life. He comes in and he comes in with, with just, just this world. I want you, I know he was a Playboy and it was, I don't care that you're married. I just want you.

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[00:14:30] Marcie: Uh, three years. Okay. Okay. So here it is three years later.

ight. Okay. So when I became [:

[00:15:14] Yvonne: Wow. I need, so you did not see that.

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And, and so she was very angry with me. Um, and what happened is when I went to the doctor, my physicians was started to Gaslight me. Well, I didn't know what that was. Right. And my first appointment was,

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go ahead?

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[00:16:18] Marcie: Subtle things,

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[00:16:28] Marcie: Yeah, he would ask he, you know, the, one of the questions was, so what are you getting married, Marcy, knowing that it wasn't. So, um, do you have a nursery? What color is the nursery?

e me go, what am I going to. [:

[00:17:00] Yvonne: Now let's, let's just let our listeners and our audience know this is back in the seventies.

And Marcy, as you're saying, this is a doc that you're going to being, treating you for you being pregnant. And he know you're single. That was now you, I heard you use the word gas lighting. Maybe I got a different name for that. He was just, I see that as putting down, just putting you down, definitely for us asking you questions that he knows that not that you don't know the answer, but according to what he's expecting you to be able to answer at that time, that's my own opinion.

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And then I should just go on without him. And he said, um, the best thing that, that you could do is because I had shared with him about what the doctor had said. And he says, the best thing that you could do as is to, to go ahead and, uh, place her for adoption. And it was a small town, very small town. And like I said, he was the town Playboy.

So everybody knew, you know, there, you know, I was pregnant and then it was Roger's baby. And it was a really big deal, you know, it was really scandalous back there. And, and, um, so I, I relented and I got to the point where I, I couldn't see her being raised in that town. Um, I didn't have the resources. I was hardly making anything.

of that, you know, that last [:

[00:19:05] Yvonne: in that day to, in a seventies now, was it a close or an option? Open adoption?

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She's gonna have such a great life that she won't even think about her mother. Well, maybe she would, but you know, just the thing. The things that

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And in my

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And just saying, and being fed the lie that you had to deny your feelings. Cause there's no way you can forget your child. No, there's no way. There's no way. So that, that obviously was tough. I speak about that because that's a reality that the birth moms on this, this podcast will share that reality of there.

But how well, how was you giving birth and a scenario when you did and who was there with you?

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So I was alone and it was, I was crying for my mother. And did she? Yes, mom knew. And, um, you know, I was just laying there crying for my mother and I was just losing it, you know, it's just, it was just very. Traumatic for me. And when I, they put me to sleep right at the end. And then when I woke up, you know, there was no baby.

And I started asking questions and they said, oh, your doctor said, it's better for you not to know anything at all. And I said, no, um, I, I said it as a girl or a boy. And she said, well, it's a girl. And I just kept pushing her. And she said, well, I'll see what I can do. So she leaves the room

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And I got to see her for a few minutes and I cried and I said prayer. And then the nurse just came back in and she didn't even ask me. She just scooped her away from me. Right. And I became hysterical at that point. And she kept trying to shush me and tell me that I was disturbing the other patients. Oh, wow.

And the next thing I know they had me in a wheelchair. It was just like a, just a big nightmare. And I just remember going down the hall in the wheels and I could, you know, when it hit a bump and I was just concentrating on that and I could hear her crying and I was going one direction and she was going the other direction until I got into the elevator.

And I was like, where are they taking me? And I realized that they took me off the maternity floor and they put me with regular patients because they didn't want

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[00:23:01] Yvonne: because you were causing a disturbance because you had, you had, I say, user or lost, or a piece of you who you just gave birth to and your, your, your feelings.

And none of that was honored was on. I mean, that, that was the reality. You know, and, and I want you to share, but I don't want you to give away everything in your book, Marcy, because they want them to buy the book. So I want you to tell enough to tease him because it's coming up that, that shoe box, I keep saying shoe box, shoe box, shoe box.

And that will be intriguing to all of you to, to buy Marcy's book. But after that, so how long were you in a hospital and when you're able to leave?

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[00:24:00] unexperienced aid was trying to comfort me and he, he gave me the book, the prophet, and, um, he was telling me how it, there was a poem in there about children and he wanted me to read it.

Okay. Um, I set it down. I didn't want to read anything at that time. And he did the kindest thing cause I was a Stericycle and the nurse came in and she said, if I would only quit crying, she would, she would come back with a shot. And she kept saying, telling him to make me be quiet. So he took me in his arms and just held me.

He just said, it's it's okay. I'm here. You know, you can cry. You know, I didn't have my mother, I didn't have my sister and I didn't have Roger and I didn't have anybody. So I just leaned into that. Yeah.

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[00:25:00] simply held them and how much healing and soothing that was.

So there has some, I used a word people who see the patients. That you were in, and he obviously saw that he gave you a book to read, but at the same time you needed exactly what he gave to you, a hug. It sounds very Simplicit. And I say again to our listeners, because we also talk about what we have gone through, but as well as how will healing and roaming, and I speak for myself, sometimes a hug or just a phone call of Sam, thinking about you.

I love you. That means that's what that's priceless, that's priceless. And that's the path of really getting day by day, uh, really being able to deal with our feelings and to heal our feelings. So that was great that you got that.

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So I just automatically assumed that was also from gate because he was the only friend. Um, you know, person there and I didn't ask any questions. And I took, you know, when I got discharged and I took the rose and the book and, uh, and I went back to my sisters. And then, um, you, you find out what happened with the rose and 30 years.

Um, but I go to my sisters and it was Thanksgiving week and I'm home and we're sitting at the table having dinner and I'm not talking. And everybody's talking about making plans for Thanksgiving and my sister who she's going to invite and the, you know, the meal. And then my little niece laughed and everybody laughed and I laughed.

fork and I took my hands and [:

How can I make her, you know, her oatmeal in the morning, knowing that I gave her sister away,

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How am I going to make Michelle her own. How am I going to share with her or read to her? That's the reality of things. And so many

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It's all happening at one time. Yes. It's all happening. That's a lot. That's a lot. So how did you day by day from that day you came home from the hospital without Michelle's sister.

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I've got this pain, I've got all this loss. I need to do something with it, but I don't know where to put it. And nobody was showing me and no one was helping me. And nobody wanted to talk about, you know, the elephant in the room, all being normal, you know, there's like an alligator eating the dining room [00:29:00] table chair, and you guys are still talking about, you know, what kind of pies to make.

And I'm like, am I crazy? Or

what?

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[00:29:12] Marcie: yeah. So in that moment I thought, well, uh, I, I just went to my, um, I like to write, I like to journal and I got that from my mother and I had been journaling up to this point, so I got a paper and pencil out and I just wrote my feelings out and I ended up writing this poem to my daughter.

Okay. Called November rain. Wow. And I. Got that together. And I thought, well, how can I house it? So I got my closet, I dumped my tennis shoes out. I found the shoe box. I put the book, the prophet inside of it, the poem and the flower. Wow. I tied it up with a yellow ribbon up. Oh, I left one thing out. I also got into my

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I took it to my face and I inhaled just the scent of it. Right. And then I trimmed out a little piece of the gown and put it in there, wrapped it all up, threw it in my closet and threw all these sweaters on top of it. Like, okay. And then I, I looked back in miring my way to self heal. Yeah. And like I contained the demon.

Yeah. Yeah. It did it.

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[00:30:50] Marcie: That I, I F I remember saying to myself, okay. If you're always going to feel like this, if you're always going to hurt, then you have to learn to master the hurt.

You can't let it

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[00:31:02] Yvonne: manage it,

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[00:31:16] Yvonne: right, right. Just so when you said that you journal journaling is healing and I encourage any of the moms out there, adoptees and whomever to journal, even if you don't show it to someone or put it in a letter.

Burnet. I have a ceremony with a candle, whatever, just as Marcy you talked about and putting that and put it in a shoe box that was symbolic symbolic to me as is resharing that you're use of capturing the demons in that box. So you put it away. Will you sharing the poem and writing the poem in the journal?

an no longer have control of [:

That was 21. 21. Okay. So moving on for 21 to now, what have you been doing? How have you tied that in? How have you, I should say dealt with Michelle, but raised Michelle and so forth as your daughter or any other children thereafter?

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[00:32:44] Yvonne: Okay. Okay.

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Okay. Don't think about it. Don't talk about it. Pretend it never [00:33:00] happened. Boom. I learned. How to master the game of denial was really good at it, too. Wow. And so my life moved forward and I, this pain was driving me and it drove me into a very successful career. Um, I was a stockbroker for 15 years, and then I went on to become a vice-president of a bank for another 17 years.

t. And you know, this is what:

I mean, outside.[00:34:00]

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[00:34:05] Marcie: But every night I would come home. When I, when all of my reports were finished and I wasn't dealing with any of my, my clients and I walked into the door, there was someone else that was meeting there, meeting me there, outside of the furry face of my golden retriever.

Right. And her name was shame. Hmm.

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[00:34:33] Marcie: Is that, uh, what is that I saw myself is I called myself the consummate actress. Okay. What

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would you love me if you knew who are really BAS would you love me? If you knew what I had done, would you love me if you know what I've been through, where those, some of the questions of course. So, how did you address [00:35:00] shame when you, when they met you at the door?

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[00:35:12] Yvonne: for me. Okay. Okay.

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What I called that shield of success. That that was what was keeping me together. And, um, but as anything goes, um, on the inside, I was a broken mess.

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[00:35:47] Marcie: learn Yvonne. I didn't learn until much later we can be successful and broken. Those two can live in duality. But I was [00:36:00] measuring myself, like, if I've acquired all of this success and these things, there can't be anything wrong with me.

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[00:36:30] Marcie: Well, the, the changing point came when my marriage was actually starting to crumble. My, I was married to an alcoholic and he was a functioning alcoholic and it was, the marriage was good in so many ways, but when he drank and it wasn't every day, it was just, it became too much. And then my success threatened him.

Uh, and at that escalated. And so we started drifting apart and as we drifted apart, I just started to

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[00:37:24] Yvonne: So was it, was it the thing of presenting the picture of perfection, even knowing that behind the scenes, it was not perfect. Yes. Oh, okay. Okay. So that, that was, it was just

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I was putting that off. I was putting off signing the divorce papers. I was putting off all these [00:38:00] things because I was in denial about him. I just, just, you know, it just couldn't be happening to me.

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[00:38:21] Marcie: Okay. Okay. But, but as it, as it was my sister, um, my oldest sister, Judy, she came to live with me when I bought my new house and Tim and I were separated and she was going back to Pennsylvania to visit her, my niece, where Roger lived and that

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[00:38:43] Marcie: And so she's, you know, she's, she's talking about this, you know, I'm starting to think about how it was and you know, that trauma and I just really didn't want to go there.

ss, but I was just because I [:

And one room in the house, he wasn't allowed to go into my bedroom and he'd been trained for that since, you know, we, we bought him. So I found him in my walk-in closet. He had marked, you know, pushed all my shoe boxes were all in disarray. I mean, it looks like, uh, the scene of black Friday, I mean, but she boxes everywhere and he was all the way in the back of my closet.

And I sat down on the floor. And I put him in a Heldman in my lap. And when I looked up there was that shoe box laying on its side, standing out, but that yellow ribbon aged old yellow ribbon.

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[00:40:00] 30 years. Wow. Okay.

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I could see it like in replay. Right, right. And, and then I was going at a different rep different direction, but I, I couldn't name it because it hadn't had. But yet it had hard to explain and I looked at him and I knew that I had to put him down. And I knew that he, and this is how I interpreted it, that my dog, my best friend who brought me so many years of joy was setting me on the track to go back

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And in my mind, the only way to find her was defined him.

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That had to be very, very hard. How did you get through that when you first saw him, the box came out 30 years probably flashed through your mind.

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[00:42:00] ears and, you know, dear God, make it stop.

It wouldn't stop. And I knew, I knew that it wouldn't stop. Right. And, and I could, I could never be whole until I, I found her,

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Whatever that may be. We don't know what that is, but something we'll get it out. And just, as you said, back to it is that we need to be able to manage it well, otherwise it will overwhelm us completely.

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[00:43:00] my professional life that bled over into my, it was all over everything, but I, I was hiding and, but once I no longer had that shield, I was standing behind that shield.

I was like, I was naked. I was vulnerable. I, I didn't have anything to do, but to face it.

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I want you to pay, pay attention to, you know, how Marcy is describing it. I, I, I concur for all of what you say. We all have different scenarios that we go through different scenarios and periods of times and what we're prompted back. But part of living our best life is sometimes [00:44:00] it oozes out at a time.

Like you describe shame, you're meeting immediate the door, it could be other different things for other people. And that's for you, a birth moms out there, adoptees adopted, well, we've got to face issues. We've got to cause that's the only way we can get through is to go through, but go through it. I like to say it's your own calling so you can have some.

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[00:44:58] Yvonne: and say that again.

Say that [:

[00:45:03] Marcie: Yes. I want you to, you know, that's what I say. There's magic in that mess. You've got to go there. You've got to set there and, and embrace that discomfort and let the tears come. If you're, if you're, if, if you're afraid to do it by yourself, right. Do it with a trusted, loved one, do it with a therapist.

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They have the birth moms who are not ready to deal with that when the child comes up. And just before we came on to record Marcy someone,

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They are not ready to open that wound. Dig in there to go through it, to have your, the best of the rest of your life, what you just described because only then do you have true healing? Oh, you can paint the facade. You can have the persona. Oh, I got this guy. Oh, I got this. Yeah, you got it. All right. But to do you really do you really?

I, you just, and I use the word perpetrating, but it's not like they're trying to, to get over on someone. It's just like, they're that persona that they really not. They're really not. And only when you dig deep, as you say and what you've done, but do it. Don't try to do it alone. Don't try to do it alone. A

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Sharing your stories, healing, you know, support groups. You know, we have the birth moms, they'll talk village, we've got a zone tomorrow night. So when you share and connect and doing with other people who can understand, love you in a hug, you give you that hug like you get in the hospital. That's awesome.

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You are the storyteller and you grieve and you visit your trauma and you [00:48:00] see it through a different lens. And then that's where you can discover meaning and all of it not try to logic what happened to you. Right. Right. But you find meaning in that

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You, you reckon when you recognize this is what it was, it was a loss. You don't have to perpetrate an act like, and just put them that's that fake smile. As I heard you say that you were coming back for Thanksgiving and you described was as they're planning meals and whatever else, and you dealing with, you lost your child.

Come on, you know, let's talk about the real stuff.

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[00:49:00] story. He goes to the media. And then I learned another lesson because in the media, um, I was once again, oppressed for going public as a officer of the bank, how dare I, I got pulled into the HR office.

How could you do this? How could you let your personal story go on the front page of the lawyer for Curry journal? How could you be on the radio? How could you do all these things? Wow. And then, you know what happened? They started coming into my office. I would have a client, Marcy, Marcy. I never knew this about you.

Thank you for, for coming out because I lost my baby and blah, blah, blah. And I tell me their story. Yes. And then I had an investment client come in, crying and I said, oh my God, you know, what's, what's wrong with what's happening. You, you are what's happened. She said, I I'm,

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And she was diagnosed with cancer and she was going to die. And she said, well, you helped me find my daughter before I die.

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They are seeing that all K moms are talking they're sharing. And when they listened to the different stories, a lot of times that's speed. That's me. I've even had, uh, adoptees bring their birth moms, or I've got someone now, her grandmother and listen to the part of CAS, her grandmother, her grandmother, who's like over 80 years old has never shared outside of the family.

n't even talk about it, Nash [:

Because we were told that now you call yourself a compliant birth mom. I was not compliant at all. I was not complaining at all. Just like if those of you have listened to my story, that, you know, my family did not give support and, and didn't come to see me. I was there all along and I come back in the house.

No one asks me that I have a boy or a girl. I just announced I have a son that they, whether they want to hear it or not, I'm going to talk. You don't have to listen to it. What I'm going to talk. Absolutely.

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[00:52:15] Yvonne: Okay. Two months. Okay.

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[00:52:22] Yvonne: Yeah.

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All I knew is that I had him and I had her and love was enough. And we were the family that should have been,

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He went to college with never, should have been parents. And my daughter, uh, they divorced when she was three and everything happened to her

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[00:53:39] Marcie: And there was no life of privilege. There was no excess and abundance. Resources. There was no girl Scouts and sleepovers in summer camp and band practice.

Right? It was, it was a hard life and child abuse and, um,

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It's something that's really sad. She tried to get her, her medical records because she was having seizures. And you see, I had seizures as a child and I put that in the file, but they pulled it out. I talked that step. They, her adoptive mom and they never got the medical records and she had a seizure at 22 and had a stroke.

Wow. So

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[00:55:00] dad, but what's in there with, with legacy and heritage and, you know, are they good at this?

And whatever, because nature versus nurture, you know, I'm always talking about that nature, nurture nature, nurture it all goes together and we need all of it. We need all of fit and yeah, there's some war stuff coming. So just encourage you say didn't, uh, um, introduced to people to your book and how they can find your book, Marcy.

Then we can go into the hot topic.

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[00:55:44] Yvonne: anywhere. It's a good read. So I encourage all of you to go out and, and get the book.

it's so many that we really [:

[00:56:08] Marcie: Um, well, I'd like to, I'd like to share about what I did with, um, my work in the adoption community and how that's, how I found meaning in my law.

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[00:56:27] Marcie: to be helpful? Yes. Yes. Um, okay. Um, let me walk you through that because what happens is.

We all crashed my, my family crashes and burns, and I go to a very, very dark place. And this fairy tale romance and this fairytale story went south, um, pretty quickly. And in my darkest moment with the separation, my daughter ends up, she leaves and I realized that I can't fix her. My

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And what happens is during that dark place, it took me back to revisit that five-year-old child hood wound, the mother loss my own, and it forced me at that point to do my own inner work and to find out that that's what I I'm saying. We we've got to go to that dark place. We got to sit in that discomfort.

We've got to. No longer stay the victim and we've got to be the survivor and we need to get to, to the place where grief and joy can live in duality and that we are more than our stories. Um, but it takes just that one first step to get there. And that's where I went. I mean, it was just, it was just very difficult because I didn't think I could have any more loss.

And then when Judy died, of course, I

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Uh, forgiveness, uh, which I, I did, uh, use, use some examples in my book as well. Well, you know,

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I tell people every time I record a

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That forgiveness call out what faces you each day. You mentioned four, as you come home to shame every day. What, what are the, what are the demons? What are the things who are, they are said they are talking to you and I'll say in a minute, close your ears, or just put up your hand. I'm not talking to you today.

I'm just not going to deal with you today. Grief, wounds, trauma and whatever. But the first step is to recognize what it

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[00:59:49] Yvonne: as exactly. You can't deal with it. If you can't call it by name, you gotta, you gotta be able to call it by name what it is, because like you Marcy, I've been in for sales and marketing over

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Listen, know what problem. Yes, no one can solve a problem unless you know what the problem is. So any last thoughts, this has been awesome, Marcy, but awesome of glad for your sharing your story. Not only for us, what has transpired the different symbolism of what you've been doing these number of years, 30 years, you know me, it's 45.

Now let me take it back. 48, whew. Time flies. Whew. So his life, whatever period of time has been, and my eyes was closed as well as yours. But those of you who are out there for open adoption, same scenario, you may be seeing your child, but I, you truly dealing with the feelings that you're having, even seeing your children, because those are other scenarios.

isode. Now this is January of:

[01:01:02] Marcie: The only thing that I could say is, like I said before, is, you know, self-awareness and making that first move, uh, is a step in the right direction.

That all moms, we're all here for all of you, and it just takes a phone call. It just takes extending a hand. Uh, we're all here to help. And we're all in this together.

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Tune into our Saturday platform. Follow us on social media. Listen to our episodes. We've got now told them 19 episodes in the past six months. So

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That's how we're able to bring you these podcasts. So it's life changing. It's life changing, and we're here. We're here together and we're stronger together. You've been listening to D Yvonne rivers. See you next time.

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