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140. Replacing Fine with F*ck Off! with P.J. Roscoe
Episode 14016th May 2024 • FINE is a 4-Letter Word • Lori Saitz
00:00:00 00:45:14

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Children who are told to be “seen, but not heard” learn early on that their thoughts, feelings, and words don’t matter.

Then as adults, they continue to silence themselves even when they do speak by hiding and suppressing their true thoughts and feelings.

Growing up in a small Welsh village, P.J. Roscoe learned early on to know her place, don’t have an opinion, don’t question or challenge anything, and generally stay completely out of the way.

It was such a small village that as P.J. says, you could fart on one end of the village, and by the time you got home, everyone would know about it. The adults talked with each other about the children constantly, but the children were supposed to stay silent and contribute nothing.

Ironically, when P.J. and her family moved to another town where she felt more free to express herself, she felt out of place and wanted to go back.

Going away to college didn’t change much. She ended up in an abusive relationship that gave her no freedom, and in college she was told that she could not have certain jobs or career choices because she was a woman. She was studying to be a beauty health and sports therapist and dance instructor, but she really wanted to be an author. No, she was told, her grades weren’t good enough.

When she was eight months pregnant, P.J. went for her usual scan where they discovered the baby didn’t have a heartbeat. This tragedy became the catalyst for her to write her first novel, called “Echoes”.

So maybe things were going to be fine after all – but Fine is a 4-Letter Word.

P.J.’s next step was training to become a therapist. Her instructor gave her an assignment – for the next three years, instead of saying the word “fine” (or “okay”) when asked how she was doing or how her day was, she was to say “fuck off”.

Her instructor explained that when you say “fine” as the answer to questions like “how are you” or “how was dinner,” it disrespects the person asking because it shows them you reject their interest or concern for you. Similarly, P.J. should never accept “fine” or “okay” as the response when asking after someone else.

What should she do instead? How does changing the conversation lead to better communication as well as empower and honor both you and the other person? In what ways does this help us be both seen and heard?

In a moment, when you meet P.J., you’ll discover a new take on how Fine is a 4-Letter Word which could open new doors for you.

P.J.’s hype song is "Rain” by The Cult.


P.J. is offering you a 10% discount on her 5-month program when you contact her and say “I heard you on Lori’s show, Fine is a 4-Letter Word”.

Invitation from Lori:

Now if, like P.J., you feel seen but not heard – like you’re existing in a reality dictated by somebody else and you’ve no say in the matter, the 5 Easy Ways to Start Living The Sabbatical Life guide can help you find your own voice.

Once you read it, you’ll

✅ Discover a counter-intuitive approach to making intentional changes in mindset and lifestyle.

✅ Learn how to own your feelings and your struggles so you can address them.

✅ Find out how to face fears, step out of your comfort zone, and rewire your beliefs.

It’s only 7 pages, so it won’t take you long to get through. Using what you discover, you may well find yourself finally able to express your needs, wants, and desires.

When you’re ready to say F*ck Being Fine, this guide is the place to start. It’s time to reach out and feel the power of your destiny.

Go to right now to download it for free.

Now let’s meet P.J. I know she just yelled at us to go fuck off, but trust me, she’s really nice. You’ll see!


Lori: Hello and welcome to Fine is a Four-Letter Word. My guest today, Paula Roscoe, welcome to the show. We were just running some Jeopardy! music because this recording thing has a five-second countdown at the beginning. And I was telling Paula that you have to run this Jeopardy! music in your head because it feels like it should be playing the theme song from Jeopardy! And Paula living in the UK does not know Jeopardy! So I had to run the music for her.

Paula: Yeah, I made you do it. You wanted to do it.

Lori: And that's what we're laughing about now. This is going to be a good conversation. I can tell already. So yes, I was telling Paula this morning, I was having a conversation with a friend and saying, yeah, Paula is one of us. So, yeah, here we are. All right. Well, tell me first, what were the values and beliefs that you were raised with that contributed to you becoming who you are? I like to start off with the easy questions.

Paula: Okay, I'm screwed. Okay, so yeah, it was really about women know your place, don't have an opinion, don't speak if you haven't been spoken to. It was very much about children being seen if they have to be, but never heard kind of thing. It was a very strict upbringing. And we were brought up in a little tiny Welsh village where everybody knew everybody's business, so you couldn't even misbehave because mom would know about it before you got home. I used to say to people, you could fart in one end of the village and by the time you got home, everyone would know about it, because everybody knew everybody's business. So it was very constricted. It was a very strict Christian Welsh village, sort of Welsh chapel. I don't know if you've heard of that over there. And because we came initially from England, my mom and dad came from Liverpool and they came over into this village, they were never accepted. So it was always constantly trying to fit in, but knowing you could never fit in. So you would just try and keep everyone happy and say what you thought that they expected you to say, things like that.

Lori: What were they doing? Why did they move there?

Paula: Well, because they were brought up in Liverpool, which is, I don't know if you know, it's a very busy city. In the ‘70, they didn't consider it a particularly safe place and they were broken into a couple of times and then they just decided, no, enough was enough. They wanted to go into Wales where they thought it was going to be safer. They didn't take in the locals.

Lori: How did you quote unquote escape?

Paula: Escape what? The village or the ...?

Lori: Yes, the village. First starting, yes.

Paula: Yeah, escape the village really was just basically, my dad was a bricklayer and he built a couple of houses, which got us enough money to move out of that village into another Welsh village, really, but with a lot more people in it who were not as Welsh, if you like. And we were accepted a little bit more there. Which by that point I hated. I wanted to be back in the village. It really was, it was weird. It was like, that saying, love what you've got because once you've lost it, it's gone. It really was that for me. I was about 14 when we moved and I did not want to be where we were. I wanted to be where we'd been.

Lori: Well, and of course at that age, it's not a great time to uproot a child. Like you're just getting to know who you are and figure things out, and you don't want to be now the new kid in a school.

Paula: Oh yeah, definitely. And I think there was definitely that element of rebelliousness going on, definitely. Well, you've moved me, so I'm just going to be angry at everything. Because I'm a 14-year-old girl and I'm angry with the world.

Lori: Right, exactly. You're going to be angry anyway, but now you had a good excuse.

Paula: Oh, I had a great excuse. Two years I made their lives hell.

Lori: So then like what happened after that, as you got older, you went off on your own? Where did you end up and how did you escape, the other interpretation of escape, those restrictive beliefs?

Paula: Sadly, I didn't really get away from them. They kind of stayed with me. Because it was such a strict upbringing, it didn't seem to matter where I went. Growing up into my late teens, going into my early twenties, I was still in a very restrictive and abusive relationship. I moved to college just to get away from my family. But even there, it was very restrictive. It was rules and there was a lot of this going on. And it was still a lot of what was expected of women in the ‘80s. It was still a lot of, well, you're very good at this job, but don't think you can do that job, that kind of stuff. And I'd been in college about two years, I think, two and a half years. I was coming to the end of my four-year stay, I know that. And I met this amazing woman. I wish I knew where she was now. And she was the first woman to be a car mechanic. Everyone was like, what's she doing? Oh my God, why is she doing that? You know, she was determined to do it. And everyone was just like, oh, she's amazing, she's amazing, you know? Yeah, Susan, wherever you are, bless your heart. You set the scene, woman.

Lori: She gave you a role model of somebody who was not doing the typical woman thing.

Paula: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I was there training to be a beauty health and sports therapist and dance instructor. And it was one of those things where I knew I was very good at doing that kind of stuff. I'd been doing makeup and massage for years. But I really wanted to be an author, yet everyone told me, "You're not clever enough. You go to college and do handsy stuff. You're good with your hands." “But I want be a writer.” “No, no, you're not clever enough. Writers need A-levels, and you're not clever enough to get A-levels.” And I believed them, and it was very, okay, all right. I'll go and do as I'm told and I'll be fine with it.

Lori: Yes, fine. But clearly your spirit was not okay with that.

Paula: No. I did just under four years training. And as soon as I left college, I set up my own business, and I was there for about 18 months. And I basically sat down one day and went, what the f*ck am I doing? I don’t want this. So I did lots of other little jobs trying to make ends meet, trying to find out what I wanted to do, find the courage to do what I wanted to do. And then sadly, it was the death of my son that was the trigger that then, yeah, I'm going to do what I'm going to do.

Lori: We definitely need to go back to that. And before I go there, did you know what you really wanted? You knew you wanted to be a writer. Is that what you wanted to do? And that's what you were working up your courage to do?

Paula: Yeah, definitely.

Lori: Okay, because you said you were looking to find the courage to do the thing you really wanted to do. And I was going to ask you if you knew what that was, but you did, it was writing.

Paula: I'd been writing since I could hold a pen. I used to write little short stories for my brothers. I wrote this little book about zoo animals. I can't remember what it was called, but I looked at it from the other angle so that it was all about the animals. Once all the visitors had gone, they take the mickey out of the visitors. What are they coming to see us for? What do they want me to do? Throw poo at them and stuff like that? Or they'd say things like, did you see that big fat man? He's trying to be like an elephant. And I'd sort of just do little stories about that. And I've always kept a journal ever since I could write, since I was about five or six years old. So writing for me was just a natural thing to do, but I was told, no, it's restricted. No, do as you're told, go there.

Lori: Yeah, don't do the thing that you were naturally born to do.

Paula: Sadly, yeah.

Lori: Tell me the story about your son. And how did that break you open to do the thing?

Paula: Well, I went through a lot of abuse and a lot of psychiatric help and came out of all that and got pregnant with Jack. Everything was fine up to about eight months. And then I went for my usual scan and they couldn't find the heartbeat. And he was already dead. He'd been dead about a couple of hours. Had to give birth to him and it was very traumatic and it was absolutely awful to go through. Two weeks later after his death, my husband had to go back to work. And I can remember sitting in the kitchen. I had no idea how I was going to get through the day. And I picked up a pencil and I started writing and I wrote my first novel. And it then went on to win awards and stuff. And I just kept writing.

Lori: How long did it take you to write it?

Paula: Initially, probably about four months, four and a half months. And then I went back and edited it and changed it. The whole thing was probably about a year.

Lori: What was it about? It was set in Shrewsbury and it was sort of set around Henry Tudor. So you've got Henry Tudor, then you've got Henry VIII, his son. Henry Tudor was his dad. And he won the Battle of Bosworth, which basically ended the War of the Roses. And he then ruled. And it's how one terrible decision he makes echoes down through time. And it's called "Echoes."

Lori: So this story just flowed out of you because it had been waiting for something to trigger it.

Paula: Yeah, I'm convinced of that. Sadly, it needed something so awful, so terrible to happen. Yeah, and it was like an awakening. I was no longer just going to sit in just being here. I'm going all the way up here. I'm going to go and do what I'm meant to do. And I've written 12 books so far.

Lori: Have they all flowed as easily as that first book?

Paula: Yes, I've never had writer's block. The problem I have is I haven't got time. And when it's coming, I can't type fast enough. And if I need to stop mid-sentence, I can go away for weeks, months, come back and just continue as though I'd never stopped. It's just instant. It's all there. And then it just comes.

Lori: Have you ever spoken it out instead of writing it?

Paula: Yes, I've narrated all of them.

Lori: Because you were saying you can't write fast enough. So I was just wondering if the speaking would make it better.

Paula: I tried that. You can get a program where you talk and it types it for you. No, it didn't work. I had to go back and it doesn't quite get it right. You still have to go back and do all the punctuation properly and still put in—It didn't have the essence of me. I think that's what I'm trying to say.

Lori: I've heard, and when I write as well, and even when I'm doing a presentation or creating a presentation, I have to write it before I edit it to be spoken.

Paula: Oh yeah, yeah, definitely.

Lori: I think it's how our brains work. Like some people can just speak things out and do it that way, but there's something about writing.

Paula: Oh, well, yes. I use writing with my clients in therapy. Writing is one of the most powerful tools I think you can use. If you can get it out of your head, you can see it, you can work with it. So I think that's why I found it so therapeutic to write after Jack died.

Lori: Yeah, absolutely. When we talked, you mentioned that an instructor gave you a challenge around using the word fine.

Paula: Yeah, gosh. Because about up to that point, I used fine constantly, or okay, that kind of, I'm fine, don't worry about me, I'm okay. You And you do that tilt, that little smile. And I recoil when I look back at that. And when I began training as a therapist, I think it was the second week, I think, she sat us all down and she said, right, I know you all like to use this word fine and okay. She said, which is basically just a shorter version of saying fine. So she said, what we're going to do, we're going to say fuck off, and we are not going to use fine or okay for the next three years. She said, that is your challenge.

And I think once you get it into your head, it's actually, I found it quite easy. I mean, sometimes you'd slip and she'd go—you'd hear it across the room, “Ah, ah, heard that. Fuck off.” “Okay, sorry, bye, fuck off, fine.” But once you realize that if someone is asking you a question, then it's one of two things. They either really want to know, so you give them the honest answer, because if you don't, you're kind of disrespecting them for asking, you're belittling them for asking. If they really don't want to know, or if you really think they don't want to know, ask them, do you really want to know, or shall I just say nothing? Because my honest answer would be a little bit longer than just fine. And they'll be honest, they might be a bit shocked, and they might go, oh, right, oh, well. And at that point, you know, no, no, you didn't really want to know, and we're good, fine, I'll walk away. But if they are genuinely caring and they do actually want to know, they'll go, oh, yeah, yeah, tell me. You’ve got to give people that chance to be like, yeah, okay, let's connect.

Lori: Absolutely, I love that perspective that you're disrespecting them if you just say fine.

Paula: Yeah, if they've taken the time to ask and they genuinely want to know, it's like if I said to somebody who had cooked me a meal, or if they said to me, “Did you like the meal?” And I said, “Oh, yeah, it was fine.” What does that say? It basically says, “Fuck off, I actually didn't like it. You took all that time, you took all that trouble to make it, and I'm really not going to give you the respect you deserve to give you an honest answer.” Why would I do that?

Lori: Yeah. It was a meal. I have to ask this question because it's in my head. So when your instructor said, say fuck off instead of I'm fine, did she mean just in the class or outside of that too, if somebody asked?

Paula: Everything. That was the challenge, because yeah, you can't just do it in a class environment. You have to embrace it. You have to embody that whole person, that truthful, honest, I'm going to stand in my integrity and I'm going to be this. I'm not going to say that four-letter word. I'm yeah. And at first, you find—What was mine? It was, “I'm good.” And she'd hear me and she'd go, “Paula, that's still a four-letter word.” She said, if you want to say you're good, that's fine. But expand on it. Why are you good? So I started to say, “Yeah, I'm feeling good because ...” And I got into the habit of saying, “Well, I'm not feeling too brilliant today, because ...” And it's also giving someone else permission to be honest. Because when I then say to them, “Thanks for asking, how are you doing?” And if they then just say, “Well, I'm fine,” or, “I'm okay,” I will usually say, “What's making you okay?” I'm giving them permission to be honest and stand in their own power, their own integrity. And just let's have a conversation.

Lori: Yeah, it's more likely that somebody would say fine when they're not fine, versus if you say, how are you, and something really exciting just happened, they're going to tell you.

Paula: Yeah, that is true. But I've also come across people over the years who will tell me they're fine or okay, because they may not want to tell me what's going on for them, because they might think that something's going on for me and they don't want to ...

Lori: Like if they feel like you're not happy, they don't want to tell you about this exciting thing that happened to them because you might be envious.

Paula: Exactly. And you can see this going through their mind. Should I say that? Should I not say that? How should I play that? And I just say, for God's sake, just tell me what's going on. Are you good? Are you not? Are you bad? Are you shit? What's going on? Where are you in this scale?

Lori: Yeah, and we also talked about how words are energy. So if somebody just had something really fantastic happen and they're reluctant to share it with you because they don't know how you're going to take it, the benefit of sharing that excitement is it can help raise your energy if you were not in as high an energetic vibration in that moment.

Paula: Absolutely. But I understand some people's hesitancy because they don't want to diminish their excitement or their amazing thing, or that there's something that's fabulous and brilliant. So that you can feel that resistance of, if I share it, will it go down? Or if I share it, will it go up? So you've got to kind of give that permission to say, yeah, tell me, come on. Yeah, I want to hear it. Let those words just rise and elevate. Definitely.

Lori: Yeah, and I can understand that too, because a lot of people are not like us, who would be excited for that person. They would be more like jealous, envious, or they would be like those vampires that are going to suck the energy out of that excitement.

Paula: Sadly, you do have people like that. But even when I come across people like that, I have to ask the question, what is it that's missing in your life? And let's talk about that. Let's get that in the open. Let's use the words that you want to use. Yes, I've got my excitement. That's not going to diminish. Let's find out how we can elevate you. So that then we can really start bouncing off that beautiful energy together.

Lori: And this leads into a great next piece of this, in talking about the power of words to heal. We touched on it when you were talking about writing and how that helped you heal. But tell me more about how you use that and what you teach in terms of the power of words to heal or stay where you are.

Paula: Well, I'm a grief guru. Because after Jack, I didn't get any help, no support whatsoever. I was basically told, when you're young enough, you'll have another baby, which I did. I did have another baby eventually, but that was irrelevant. So when I felt able to, and once I trained as a therapist, it became very obvious that grief was my specialty, grief and death. And also because I work with angels and I'm a spiritual medium as well, I've been around death and grief a lot. So I then trained to become a trainer, a teacher of adults. And then I went on to train people to become grief therapists. And I found that words are very important about whether you want to elevate that person or you want to diminish their energy. So I try to teach people, look at the words that you're using. So for argument's sake, people will say to me, what's the one I usually hear? I'm never going to get over this grief. Okay, I can understand why you're in that energy and I can understand where that mentality is coming from. Fine. But if you are saying to yourself, I am never going to get out of this grief, then it's going to take you a lot longer to pull yourself out of that pit. But if you can say to yourself, I'm not feeling like I'm going to get out of this grief right now, but I trust that I will in time, there's a change in energy when you say things like that. Or it's like I did that little experiment with you, didn't I? I said, I'm going to tell you that I hate you. And you can feel like, oh. It's a shift, even though you know I don't mean it. There's a shift. And then when I say, I love you, there's a, oh, you know?

Lori: Yeah, like an opening versus a closing.

Paula: Yeah, there's a constriction and an elevation. So it's about trying to make sure that you're always using those words. I mean, I know when you're deep in grief, it's very, very difficult. So it's about trying to get people educated enough in society so that when they come across grief—because of course everyone dies and you're going to come across grief at least once or twice in your life, that you know how to speak, you know how to comfort without trying to diminish someone else's power. And sometimes you don't even have to say too much. You can just say I love you and I'm here for you. That's it. That can be enough.

Lori: Because oftentimes people don't know what to say. So they say the craziest things because they just either want to make themselves feel more comfortable or they don't know what to say or they want to be helpful and they just feel so uncomfortable because we don't talk about that.

Paula: No, society doesn't talk about death. I've actually met people who whisper the word. I'm like, what do you think is going to happen? Do you honestly think some guy with a big scythe is going to turn up or what? Or they'll mouth the word death. It's a word. It's a D word. It's not a word we like to use, but you have to be honest. This is what's happened. And then from that, you can use that honesty and you can use that with love and integrity and you can heal from that. But yeah, the amount of people who really don't want to talk about it. The amount of people who don't make a will or they don't organize their funeral, because if they do, somehow, apparently the boogeyman is going to come and make it happen. Which on one hand, I do get it. I understand that. But on the other hand, it's going to happen to you. So when is too late? That's what I say to people. You’ve got to think about that.

Lori: Absolutely, yeah. How do you think people can use death to connect with other people better? because there is an opportunity there.

Paula: Yeah, of course. One of the things that I say to my clients is you need to have honest conversations. Be open and honest with everyone around you. And if they're open to it, have that conversation about death. You can make it funny. I mean, some of the things my husband and I talk about, honestly, the things he wants me to do when he dies, I'm not doing them.

Lori: Do you want to share one?

Paula: One of the things he wants me to do, is he wants me to get him stuffed and posed. In our local town called Mold, in Wales, we have a huge roundabout. And he wants to be stuffed and placed in the middle of this roundabout, dressed in Elvis clothes and pointing. And he said to me, "You can leave me there until I start to smell."

Lori: Did you ever see that movie, Weekend at Bernie's?

Paula: No.

Lori: It's many, many years old.

Paula: So something like that happens. Okay. Yeah, so he wants me to do that. And then when he starts to smell, I'm supposed to throw him on the compost and let him just feed the earth. And I said, "Right, you know what? If they let me, I'm going to do that.” He was like, "Yeah, I don't care. I'm not there, am I? It's just my body."

Lori: True, and yet you will still have to pay the consequences from the town or ... because it's probably not legal.

Paula: No, it wouldn't be legal. And he's trying to get all our friends together on this. He wants us all to collaborate. So he's even been talking about, we'll all go in the middle of the night and we'll just plonk him on there so that when everyone wakes up in the morning, they'll see him and then we're supposed to just try and keep him there for as long as possible. I'm like, "Oh, for God's sake. You're going to get us into so much trouble." He said, "Well, you'll have so much fun. Because you'll create hell in the jail anyway. So you'll enjoy yourself."

Lori: Oh, right. So he's even planning for what's going to happen to you after you do this, the consequences.

Paula: Yeah. He said, "You'll have your hip flask somewhere hidden on your person, so you'll have a party in the jail. You won't care." He's probably right, actually. Yeah, so it's things like that. You really should try and have a healthy, fun conversation so that when it happens—because it's inevitably going to. My husband and I, we've been together for 31 years, and I know I'm going to absolutely mourn him badly if he goes before me. But at the end of the day, we're not joined at the hip. And if I've still got life left in me, then I'm going to enjoy it, because that's what we're here for. And that's something that my son taught me, is that this little tiny bundle fought to survive for eight months. Who am I to say no to life? So I embrace life every day. If I want to learn something, I'll go and learn it. I've got so many titles after ...

Lori: And it's interesting that you just brought that up, because the way you just positioned why you have so many titles is different than, I think, a lot of people, I'm guessing, because you just said you're so interested in learning so many things. Whereas a lot of people collect titles because they need it to support their worthiness.

Paula: Yeah. Well, yeah, I can understand that if they need to do that. But at the end of the day, everything that I am learning, so I'm a woman's workshop facilitator, I'm a movement therapist, drumming therapist, hairdresser, I don't know what.

Lori: So his hair will look good while he's sitting—

Paula: Oh, do you know what? His hair's beautiful. He doesn't let me cut his hair. I have to hold him down to cut his hair. But anything I've wanted to learn—being an author was something that I had to learn over the years. And it all comes together. So it's amazing how all these things I've learned over the years, I now use with my clients. So nothing is lost. I call it my toolkit, and everything is in my toolkit. And if my client needs something like that, then she gets something like that. She has all of me, all of my skills.

Lori: Yeah, that makes sense of why somebody would collect education in that way.

Paula: Yeah, but I didn't see it as education at the time. I just saw it as, well, I kind of like the sound of that. Let's go and see what that's about. And it was, oh, actually, I'm going to learn that. And it was terrifying, some of the things I had to do, traveling on my own and going to learn various things and bits and pieces. But it was a hell of an adventure. And it's a journey, and that's what life is. Life is a journey. You've got to embrace it.

Lori: Absolutely. I say that all the time too, of why I'm out doing nomad life these days. Because life is an adventure and an experiment.

Lori: Absolutely. You know what? If you're not enjoying it, change it. And I know that can be easier said than done. And my husband, he's in a job he doesn't particularly like. So every morning I shout to him, "What are you going to be today?" And he'll say, "I'm going to be a stripper." Or, "I'm going to be a naked postman." There's a lot of nakedness goes on in this, obviously.

Lori: I'm getting that, yeah.

Paula: So it's about changing your mindset. So last week he was going to be 007. He's a delivery driver. So when he takes parcels, he was going to sort of act like he was looking around and he was going to deliver them and pretend that they were like drugs or something, or he was giving them a gun or whatever.

Lori: Yeah, it just makes it more fun.

Paula: It makes it more fun. It makes his day much more interesting. And from that, he's created a really nice gang of people that he takes stuff to and they all love him. They all miss him when he's not there and they all have a laugh because I think they all know, because they must see him coming down, what's he going to be today? He's always said on the last day, he's going to do something dramatic when he gives up work. I dread to think what that would be. But God bless him.

Lori: Keep me posted on what it is because I want to know. This has been such a great conversation. We covered so many areas. Before we go, the hype song. What is the song when you need an extra boost of energy? And we were talking before I hit record about your eclectic musical taste.

Paula: This was such a hard one to do, but I've gone for The Cult - Rain, because I'm an old goth and I have danced to this song in the rain. I have cried to this song in the rain. If I want to boost, I just pump this up and I just go for it. So enjoy.

Lori: Awesome, excellent. And then lastly, if someone wants to continue this conversation with you, where is the best place for them to find you?

Paula: I have a Facebook page, which I believe you're going to give the link to. It's called Paula Roscoe, Grief Guru. And I also have a YouTube page with lots of small videos on anything to do with grief and healing. And you can always contact me through that.

Lori: Fabulous. I will have links to all of that in the show notes. Paula, thank you so much for joining me today on Fine is a Four-Letter Word.

Paula: Thank you very much for having me. And don't live life as fine.

Lori: Good advice.




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