The price of pursuing the American dream with Martin Sawa the author of the other side
Brad Miller::of success on episode number 166 of the beyond adversity podcast with Dr. Brad Miller.
Martin Sawa:It always means putting something at stake and having downside risk. So if you don't
Martin Sawa:achieve your goal, there is a penalty or consequence. If you don't have that, then when
Martin Sawa:you're unmotivated, to kind of liberates you to do the things you shouldn't do.
Brad Miller:Hello, good people. And welcome to the beyond adversity podcast with Dr. Brad Miller.
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It is my pleasure to welcome you to this podcast where we specialize in helping you to
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grow through what you go through. That is we help you to deal with adversity in your life
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and to get beyond it and to achieve your life of peace, prosperity, and purpose. You can
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always go to our archives of podcast episodes, we have over 160 episodes at Dr. Brad
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Miller.com. There you can find great insights from doctors and psychologists and
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teachers and business people and physicians and great thinkers in the area of helping
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you to process and to have a way to get through whatever it is you're going through. To
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come out to a better place. You can head to Dr. Brad Miller.com we've got a free gift for
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you there that can be helpful to you. And we look to speak into your life to help you to
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navigate beyond adversity to your life, peace, prosperity, and purpose. Today we have a
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great guest with us. He is an author. And he comes to us from the business world,
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particularly from the world of real estate, commercial real estate where he had quite a
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successful career. But he's speaking now not only about his success in the real estate
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world, but his success in dealing with difficulties in life to achieving the American dream
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but what price he had to pay to achieve the American dream and how he has come
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through that to a much better place in his life. His name is Martin Sawa. And he is a first
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generation Ukrainian American, which comes with it some issues regarding immigration
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and his folks, his parents who had escaped Nazi-ism in Ukraine in order to establish a
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life here and how he and his life then eventually navigated his way to San Francisco,
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where he became a player in the real estate market and became quite successful in
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commercial real estate. He was a self-made man. But he came from humble
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beginnings. But in his life, he had some devastating loss. He lost his wife, He
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descended into alcoholism. He had many other issues he had to face in his life, in order
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to come through that. In his life, he had transitions in his business world. And he took a
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risk in many things. In fact, he's going to talk about putting skin in the game. We had a
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great conversation here today. And he's talking about the demands of his life and career
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and how it all came, came crashing down on him and he had to rebuild his life. The
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book is called the other side of success, money and meaning the Golden State. And it's
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really an account of his experiences of moving from an emigrant to success, dealing
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with tragedy and coming through that in a healthy way. And it is about he'll talks about
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how he was driven in his life. But he found spirituality. He found relationships. He found
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other things to get him through, hold himself out of addiction and personal tragedy to
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arrive at a state of peace, prosperity, and purpose. He blogs at Martin sawa.com
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you're gonna love this conversation here on the beyond adversity podcast with Dr. Brad
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Miller. So let's get into that conversation. Right now. Our special guest today is Martin
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Sawa. He is the author of the other side of success, money and meaning and the
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Golden State. And he had been very successful in the real estate world. And so many
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people say he's achieved the American dream. But to get there, it's been quite a story.
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We're going to get into the details of that. He's an immigrant person. He's had all kinds
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of challenges in his life, home life and financial and in the business world, and other
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things, other things in his life. He's got a fascinating story to tell. We're going to get into
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it right now. He's going to help us to find meaningfulness in making money. Our guest
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today, Martin Sawa. Martin, welcome to the Welcome to the podcast today.
Martin Sawa:Hi, Dr. Brad Miller. And thanks so much for having me on.
Brad Miller:Well, it's quite an honor to have you here on beyond adversity. And we've mentioned
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here in the introduction, you quite a success, the real estate world. And yet, your story is
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an incredible story of not only your personal story, but your family's history in Europe,
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about how you have had faced some challenges to get to success. And then after
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success, you've had some challenges too. And just tell us a little bit about your
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background story, where you who you the family, you come from some of the things that
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they face and you faced and where we stand now.
Martin Sawa:My parents grew up in the outskirts of a city in Ukraine. And this was the years before
Martin Sawa 6:39
and during the Second World War. So they lived under Stalin and under Hitler. And in
Martin Sawa 6:47
terms of adversity, I don't think it gets any worse than that. They watched a lot of their
Martin Sawa 6:56
friends die, be deported to camps. They escaped with their wives, and then wandered
Martin Sawa 7:01
around Eastern Europe working day to day before the war, and then they spent four
Martin Sawa 7:09
years in displaced persons camp and asked me before they were allowed to immigrate
Martin Sawa 7:16
to America, I was actually conceived in one of the camps and then birth it on US soil.
Martin Sawa 7:26
So I grew up in a small town in the Midwest. And after high school, moved to Chicago,
Martin Sawa 7:35
and went to college, and then after college, I moved out west to California to make my
Martin Sawa 7:43
fortune. And I scroll forward about 10 years, I was married at the time, my wife was
Martin Sawa 7:54
pregnant, I was commuting 40 miles to a job, I hate it. And I was dead broke. So I had a
Martin Sawa 8:05
decision to make. And I quit my job and swore I would never go back without a wife.
Martin Sawa 8:13
And I got a real estate license and got into the world of commercial real estate, as a
Martin Sawa 8:20
broker. And I sold investment properties, which is the most challenging way to get in
Martin Sawa 8:27
because at that time, it took months to put a deal together. And then you have to wait
Martin Sawa 8:34
until it calls to get paid if it caused at all. So it was what took about a year before I got
Martin Sawa 8:42
my first commission check. But then I was able to start paying off my bills. And I moved
Martin Sawa 8:52
to a firm in San Francisco and over the next 10 years went up the ladder. Now I was at
Martin Sawa 9:01
the top of the game so to speak in terms of brokerage. I met my second wife. And she
Martin Sawa 9:12
had what I would call charisma in biblical sense and powers in what is called the world
Martin Sawa 9:21
of the unseen and became my spiritual mentor as well as my moral compass. Good wife
Martin Sawa 9:30
model. One night she got down. My wife changed after that. There was no way to really
Martin Sawa 9:41
describe all their fields. And so I regrouped. And over time, went back to work. became
Martin Sawa 9:52
developer with a partner. We had some major projects in downtown San Francisco. I
Martin Sawa:went back After the practice of my faith, and in 2012, I left the business. Since then I've
Martin Sawa:been fortunate enough to be able to do some writing, and thinking, and working on
Martin Sawa:personal projects, helping others achieve success. And in the last, over the last few
Martin Sawa:years, I have worked on my memoir, the other side of success, money and the meaning
Martin Sawa:and the Golden State, which reckons in my adventures, both in my business life and in
Martin Sawa:my personal life.
Brad Miller:So you've had
Martin Sawa:brought us here together
Brad Miller:Absolutely. And certainly it is thematic for what we like to talk about here on beyond
Brad Miller:adversity, we really believe that people love face have kind of I call them the five D’s or
Brad Miller:the five categories of adversity one of them is, and I think your story kind of touches on
Brad Miller:all of them one way or another. One is depression and another one is divorce or
Brad Miller:relationship issues. Another one is a disease, you know, COVID crisis we're going
Brad Miller:through right now. The other one is debt or money issues. Another one is death, you
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know, either death of a loved one or someone in our life, when do we deal with those?
Brad Miller:sometimes not so good, and sometimes have a process to get through that. And we'll
Brad Miller:talk for a few minutes about your process. But you really hit some of the highest of the
Brad Miller:highs of the business world and the lows of the lows in your personal life. And I know
Brad Miller:that you even part of what the theme of what you're talking about here is those high
Brad Miller:places in the business world aren't all they're cracked up to be. Is that a fair thing to
Brad Miller:say? Or you had your challenges there as well in the business? Do you have any
Brad Miller:success in business?
Martin Sawa:Yes. Just as an aside, I would like to add a six d to the west.
Brad Miller:All right, good.
Martin Sawa:I think I experienced all five multiple times. The sixth I would call degree. And guess the
Martin Sawa:degree within that category of the adversity
Brad Miller:Yes. So say more about that. What do you mean, when you say degree? could you
Brad Miller:please go deeper, please?
Martin Sawa:Well, you can experience death. But it can be the death of a loved one. You've had time
Martin Sawa:to tie all the loose ends with the way to an advanced age is part of the passing process.
Martin Sawa:Or you can experience the death of a child at a young age to a violence circumstances.
Martin Sawa:And they're quite out, though. They're both about that. But they're quantifiably different
Martin Sawa:experiences.
Brad Miller:that's very insightful and helpful. And it seems to me that you have been working very
Brad Miller:hard through your memoir, your book here. And so the things you're really doing a
Brad Miller:processing the things that you have had success with and got through and developing
Brad Miller:your thinking towards this, and just like to ask you, Martin, what are you mentioned least
Brad Miller:one of them, but I would like you to unpack for us. What do you think are some of the
Brad Miller:actions that you took, that helped you to process this rather than being stuck? You
Brad Miller:know, you're part of what I like to do is help people to get unstuck from wherever they're
Brad Miller:at. And you probably you and I probably know, people who've been stuck, you had a
Brad Miller:bad job or a bad marriage or in depression, something like that. What are some things
Brad Miller:you did to help you to take some action to break some patterns there? What are some
Brad Miller:actions that you took?
Martin Sawa:In the world of business, it's very competitive. And, again, it's an arena for combat. And
Martin Sawa:it's sort of neutral. It's what you make of it and what your actions are. So I would say the
Martin Sawa:first step was to, I didn't like the job I had. And I didn't have couldn't support my family.
Martin Sawa:And I reasoned that I really needed to become an entrepreneur, well, which essentially,
Martin Sawa:is what I was, what was always an independent contractor life. And then I took
Martin Sawa:responsibility for them. And, you know, the technical aspects, one could pick up pretty
Martin Sawa:quickly, or in today's world, watch some webinars or whatever, but it's really the desire
Martin Sawa:and the drive to succeed at all costs. There's a Japanese proverb that goes false down
Martin Sawa:seven times get up eight. And that's really the mind form in the world of business. And
Martin Sawa:but as one achieves success, it's always at a cost. There's always a flip side. And
Martin Sawa:people see very wealthy people or celebrities, whatever can be saved on social media.
Martin Sawa:And boy, these people have no problems, then pay a price or whatever. And it's just
Martin Sawa:because these people can afford publicity things, right? Who sometimes it's just a thing,
Brad Miller:sometimes the thick layer makeup, sometimes physically, but also in terms of their
Brad Miller:Images have been big, caked-on and that's the thing.
Martin Sawa:In my case, I had a problem with alcohol ever since I was a little kid. Tell them we grew
Martin Sawa:up and had 5000 people and about 40 pounds, which is a pretty high ratio.
Brad Miller:Of course what most a lot not a lot of heavy-duty drinking was going on sounds
Martin Sawa:We do. You can avoid alcohol. Can’t really come into the vernacular, your was your to
Martin Sawa:physically drink. But it caught up with me later in life as I was building deals and flying
Martin Sawa:cities internationally and going to no words, then all of that came to the point. And the
Martin Sawa:incidents are described, good for him in the book. Where my marriage with my second
Martin Sawa:life there it was either I had to stop it, or whatnot. And that was it. So I made a decision.
Martin Sawa:And I dealt with the alcohol and then went on but as I found out all through my life, that
Martin Sawa:doesn't mean your problems won't end. It's always a continuing series of challenges.
Martin Sawa:And the more you push yourself, whether in business or in life and raise the stakes, the
Martin Sawa:more you will be tested. That's just the way it is.
Brad Miller:But you've mentioned two or three actions that you took, and I just wanted to kind of
Brad Miller:reflect with you what I'm hearing, you say, aging, you left your first job, do you become
Brad Miller:an entrepreneur into the real estate world, and because of circumstances that you had
Brad Miller:and not having enough money and so on. Then you left eventually when you had
Brad Miller:success. You eventually left that didn't do what you're doing basic now become a writer
Brad Miller:and a people, a coach, as it were to help others. And then also when you had the death
Brad Miller:of your wife, you had to deal with that deal with the grief. And then you also had to deal
Brad Miller:with the alcoholism, you took some steps to deal with those. And that's an awesome
Brad Miller:thing. And I commend you on that. And yet you are also very mindful of all those ups
Brad Miller:and downs and all this is a difficult journey. And on this journey of processing adversity
Brad Miller:to get past into a better place, it's hard to do it on your own. I just wonder you
Brad Miller:mentioned that your wife, your second wife who passed away so early in life was a
Brad Miller:woman of faith and help to also keep you on the straight and narrow they guess how
Brad Miller:you put it, say a word about two things about relationships with people who can help
Brad Miller:you keep on the straight and narrow or help you keep some of have accountability, and
Brad Miller:then anything having to do with connecting to a higher power, whether it's a faith
Brad Miller:situation or meditation, or something beyond yourself, you say a little bit about those
Brad Miller:things, if they were factors in how you travel this road
Martin Sawa:of faith has always been a part of my life. My parents came from a place that was
Martin Sawa:subject to totalitarian regimes where the first thing one does is establish an atheistic
Martin Sawa:state. Well, there's no question on who one believes. So when I grew up in this little
Martin Sawa:town in Wisconsin, we were Roman Catholic. I was an altar boy in grade school. I went
Martin Sawa:to a Jesuit High School, which happened to be conveniently located in the town. It was
Martin Sawa:a boarding school, that I went as a town student to learn far more in high school than
Martin Sawa:ever and then bounce back. Then after I left town and did go to college. The features
Martin Sawa:were the practice of faith just started to fade away. And I think this was there was no big
Martin Sawa:moment. No, it's just the secularization of this country over the last 15 years. And I kind
Martin Sawa:of went along with it. There was never a point where I, I didn't believe, but I just, I didn't
Martin Sawa:practice and it didn't affect my life. After my wife passed, I was alone. And would my
Martin Sawa:spiritual mentor is gone. And I turned back to my faith. To deal with the grief, I practice
Martin Sawa:Zen meditation. I studied Judaism, I studied, the depth practices of other religions
Martin Sawa:eventually came to where I decided to go to a retreat, it was at a Jesuit retreat facility
Martin Sawa:here in the San Francisco Bay Area. I was nestled in the hills, right in Silicon Valley,
Martin Sawa:right above the mansions of the tech moguls. And there was there that I made a
Martin Sawa:commitment to go back to the original practice of my Catholic faith. So I ended steps to
Martin Sawa:do that, and have been doing that ever since.
Brad Miller:That's awesome. say more about, I just feel like your wife. And there's been some other
Brad Miller:people have maybe spoken to your life, maybe through these retreats and things like
Brad Miller:that, who helped help hold you accountable through some of these ups and downs, I'm
Brad Miller:thinking your time of alcoholism and your time of making some really hard decisions to
Brad Miller:leave, I believe that you had been quite successful in the business, that real estate
Brad Miller:world into leave that had to be, I imagined, so people were saying, What are you doing,
Brad Miller:man? What are you doing, Martin? That kind of thing was going on. But how were
Brad Miller:relationships? mostly good, but perhaps even some challenging a part of the process of
Brad Miller:being helpful to you? Or what part did they play?
Martin Sawa:The book itself took me a while to organize the structure. But it's sort of alternating
Martin Sawa:between my business life and my personal life. And you're one person and it's one
Martin Sawa:brain, one personality, but I kind of compartmentalize and thought if I could manage
Martin Sawa:each one, by itself, the one-man problem becomes there, there are no core values to
Martin Sawa:align you in the world of business. So when you go astray, you have to have some
Martin Sawa:ability to align it with the core values which come on the personal side, and come
Martin Sawa:through the religious practice of faith and come through other means, so to speak. So
Martin Sawa:my second wife was hugely instrumental in that, in addition, and
Martin Sawa:In addition, I formed a relationship with a psychic medium. And I'm not here to convince
Martin Sawa:your listeners on this whole subject matter. Suffice it to say that I was a hardened
Martin Sawa:skeptic. And in business, I dealt with people's names you see in the paper, and masters
Martin Sawa:of illusion when it comes to making money. And I came to the conclusion that there's a
Martin Sawa:small, tiny handful of people who have the ability to access information through
Martin Sawa:unexplainable means. And it's up to the individual to determine how they do it if they
Martin Sawa:can ever determine, but the proof is always in the pudding if I get practical results. So I
Martin Sawa:made that decision to to to use that resource and use it sparingly and wisely and really,
Martin Sawa:it was Mary Jo. Both Anita and I have known her for about five years before I need a
Martin Sawa:pass and after Nina did pass, she was the most instrumental factor in dealing with me
Martin Sawa:Before moving on, and I learned that love can survive physical death.
Brad Miller:I think gives you a kind of a connection as it were. Thread as it were through some of
Brad Miller:the other things we've talked about, about grief and success and hard decisions to
Brad Miller:leave careers and deal with the success sets because success is hard to deal with. And
Brad Miller:what you say in your book is you want to find meaningfulness in this life, and that's a
Brad Miller:search, I think we all have is to find meaningfulness. And I believe a part of that has to
Brad Miller:do with what we've talked about here, that emotional thing, that relationship, I believe
Brad Miller:there's a spiritual element, there's the element kind of almost a physical, the taking
Brad Miller:action piece when there's many people gets stuck by just not taking action. But I think
Brad Miller:another part of the kind of the cognitive, or the kind of everyday piece is what are our
Brad Miller:habits or disciplines. Or what are we doing now that we didn't do before. So what I'd like
Brad Miller:for you to speak if you went to any part of your life, any habits or disciplines, old
Brad Miller:practices, especially things you may teach in your book, that can be helpful to us in
Brad Miller:terms of having meaningfulness in life and having success.
Martin Sawa:Though, it's always helpful to have a mentor, boy who has your best interest of hearts,
Martin Sawa:and his profession, in whatever is the specific subject area you want to get help in,
Martin Sawa:which is not always easy, because even family and friends oftentimes won't have the
Martin Sawa:best interest. So I’m pretty self-directed. So I try to figure out how I needed to address
Martin Sawa:the problem, what my tangible goal was a tangible, measurable goal
Martin Sawa:find the perfect mate or whatever, tantrum, Pacific ball. So in the case of alcoholism, I
Martin Sawa:dealt with what I call a control program of moderation. I would stop, or I go, maybe days,
Martin Sawa:even weeks without breaking. And then if I had the urge, I would have a beer to really
Martin Sawa:more than three. And that way I was able to function and not feel like my dad did, who
27:42
went cold turkey to a tremendous after well, but then know how to fill the hole became
27:50
somber and morose for the rest of his life. So it's finding kind of what works for you.
Martin Sawa:When I talk to people, and they asked my advice, In general, the first question I asked
Martin Sawa:them is what do you believe to be true? Okay, again, this is from the top down. If you
Martin Sawa:believe life starts at zero, and infancy, then that's fine. To be true to yourself, you're
Martin Sawa:going a certain way. And you may achieve great success and be an asshole, but not
Martin Sawa:caring. Because that's your voice. Is that your worldview? But if you believe there's
Martin Sawa:more than that, and what is it you believe in giveaway them in a personal God before
Martin Sawa:even the power of prayer, listening. And as you assemble your tools, and it comes down
Martin Sawa:to practice, religion what happens to the line, the ritual is the vast shares always the
Martin Sawa:atonement, the confession, you treat these things seriously. You develop a personal plan.
Brad Miller:That's part of your process is the practice, how you apply these things to your life. And
Brad Miller:one of the things I saw in my notes here is the theme of your book and of, having
Brad Miller:meaning most in your life is to have skin in the game, in business, and in life. Unpack
Brad Miller:that for us a little bit. But I think it's a part of your process. If I'm understanding you,
Brad Miller:Martin, part of your process is to invest to get a return. So tell us what you mean by that
Brad Miller:in terms of business and in your meaningfulness of life.
Martin Sawa:It's kind of game is a central theme of the book. In business, it means risking your time
Martin Sawa:your mining your reputation, and further and silver for your business goals. But in life,
Martin Sawa:that always means putting something at stake and having downside risk. So if you don't
Martin Sawa:achieve your goal, there is a penalty or consequence to be paid. If you don't have that,
Martin Sawa:then when you're unmotivated, and it kind of liberates you to do things you shouldn't do.
Martin Sawa:And that's what you see what a lot of the internet trolls are, they're anonymous. So they
Martin Sawa:Can take somebody down, destroy their life. But if they're unsuccessful or caught,
Martin Sawa:there's no punishment. They have nothing on the downside, so it just scores me even
Martin Sawa:more. So that's what I mean by the skin in the game.
Brad Miller:Very good that I think it's helpful to know you got to you know, you got to risk something
Brad Miller:in order to get to gain something, it's not just you know, the bottom line, money-wise, it
Brad Miller:is the bottom line of your life. And one of the things you've done is you've put yourself
Brad Miller:out there by writing a book. Writing a book is a vulnerable thing to do. It's an intense
Brad Miller:thing to do. It's something where you're saying, here's my story, but also here is what I
Brad Miller:can share with you. How you can make some changes in your life as well. And I think
Brad Miller:it's getting to know you, it's a part of your heart is to help serve other people. So tell us a
Brad Miller:little bit about how your book or your teaching have to serve someone else. Maybe
Brad Miller:someone you know personally or coach or part of your business, maybe someone who
Brad Miller:read your book. Can you tell us about some situations where you've been influential,
Brad Miller:someone where you've been able to take your life lessons, and then be helpful to someone else.
Martin Sawa:I brought my business career. I've mentored protegees. So the book reveals how I dealt
Martin Sawa:with that and how I made them put skin in the game and their eventual success. But I
Martin Sawa:think the most compelling story is the work I did with my stepson. And this was later in
Martin Sawa:my final marriage after my wife passed, then he was by at the time in his mid-20s. He
Martin Sawa:was a young black man living in Jackson, Mississippi. He was between a paraplegic
Martin Sawa:and a quadriplegic as a result of a childhood car accident. He was on pain medication,
Martin Sawa:doing other drugs just to stay coherent. That's adversity. I mean, compared to what I
Martin Sawa:would, like, right? point a much more compelling. So I thought, I took it as a challenge to
Martin Sawa:see how he could improve his life. And I wouldn't be able to offer advice and never to
Martin Sawa:tell him what to do. But I had some definite ideas that I had accumulated over the years.
Martin Sawa:So we set about that, and the outcome is today. He is no good. By the way, he finished
Martin Sawa:high school, but he had no other professional training time. Today, he is a DevOps
Martin Sawa:Engineer while he owns a new home. He made sure that investments in oil were safe
Martin Sawa:physically, financially, and otherwise independent lifestyle. That's like a quantum. And that's a success.
Brad Miller:Oh, absolutely. That's a great story. Because I'm sure you care about the people read
Brad Miller:your book and you care about the people you've mentored in business and prodigies as
Brad Miller:you say, but this is family. This is someone that you have a connection with that goes,
Brad Miller:deeper than those other connections that you have and make all the difference in the world.
Martin Sawa:Well, there's the element of a personal challenge. I know what worked for me. But then
Martin Sawa:what would work for other people? And so I had to test them. And it's the practical result
Martin Sawa:against specific tangible goals with measurable outcomes.
Brad Miller:which outlines your process and that's what we're all about here is to have people, how
Brad Miller:people can get stuck in adversity, whatever it is, but in order to get out of it, to get
Brad Miller:beyond it. It doesn't often happen a snap of the fingers you got to have a process and
Brad Miller:what I love about what you teach us here in your Book is the other side of success is
Brad Miller:about that process of getting through that. Before we close here Martin, are there any
Brad Miller:other things that you just want to share that are really on your heart that you'd want to
Brad Miller:share with our audience here today that can be something they can just take with them
Brad Miller:a nugget they can take with them?
Martin Sawa:Well, obviously, I'd appreciate it if you took the time to get my book and read it. The
Martin Sawa:easiest way to do that is just go on my website Martinsawa.com. And there was one
Martin Sawa:quote you can buy it from Amazon or the bookseller of your choice. You can check me
Martin Sawa:out on social media. And you can scroll down to the bottom and send me an email and I
Martin Sawa:love to hear from my readers, and wants to hear their individual success stories.