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Honest Talk About Heartbreak, Dating and Relationships - Rob McPhillips EPISODE 19, 1st September 2020
Slaying The Dragon: Overcoming The Barriers To Happy Ever After
00:00:00 03:27:08

Slaying The Dragon: Overcoming The Barriers To Happy Ever After

Every relationship hits a problem when our view or vision differs from our Partners.

Slaying the Dragon is the step of the Fairy Tale that everyone skips. Every Prince and Princess had an ordeal before they lived happily ever after. That ordeal is overcoming the problems that will otherwise block your happy ever after.

Transcription

Welcome to honest talk about heartbreak, dating and relationships, relationships, the podcast helping you navigate your path to happy ever after with your host, Rob McPhillips. So the topic we're going to talk about tonight is slaying the dragon. And slaying the dragon is the metaphor for the problems in a relationship and how you resolve those problems. So. When we going to break out rooms I'd like you to think about for a minute now, is the relationships in your life where.

There's a problem that's coming between the two of you and so these can be all kinds of relationships, romantic relationships, whether it's friendships, whether it's work, relationships, wherever there's a problem.


Between you and the other person stopping the relationship from really flowing. So if you think about those relationships now, what are we going to discuss in the breakout rooms is what is making the relationship a struggle? What is the problem that's come in between the two of you? Perhaps examples might be it might help if everyone writes in the chat box. Examples that they have of a problem that's hindering their relationship. This can be any kind of relationship because we're looking at a process rather than the actual details here.


And while everyone's everyone's doing that, is there anyone that has a problem that isn't too emotionally sensitive that they would be happy discussing? We can use as an example. And, Carol, to add anything specifically there, would you say, for example, that we can use OK for for for us?


I believe it was lack of communication. So in our relationship, there wasn't anything in any event. So there was no infidelity. There was no abuse. There was no there was no particular specific thing that you could point at and say this was caused the problem. Except that I will say that. It was because we didn't really talk to each other about the things that I suppose we put up with things rather than talk to each other about it. Can that eventually, I think, took its toll?


OK. OK, and so if you weren't able to resolve it and that led to the end of the relationship. Yeah, well, it's a bit more complicated than that. I mean, she basically got to a point where in her mind it was finished and she basically kind of said, right, this is it, we need to get divorced. And and that was it.


OK, OK, so come on. OK, is anyone anything else come up in the groups that anyone would like to discuss?


So I was going to say, Rob, that for me, my my girlfriend, when I went in, she was quite needy, like she had mental health issues. And and I think after about sort of three or four years, she she improved quite significantly and she actually turned into a different person in some respects. So she went from being a massive introvert to being quite extroverted. And it was actually difficult for me to I felt like I had to know I had to learn to get to know her again.


I felt like it was a different but. In some respects, we go for. OK. All right, so what I'm what I'm going to do is I'm going to just talk about my ideas because the Slay the Dragon, then how many people are clear on what I mean by Slay the Dragon?


Yeah, OK. All right, so I'm going to show you my ideas on why I think slaying the dragon is important and how we go about there and then we can use that as a framework. To look at more specific, so. Right. One minute they are going to share the screen just so sometimes visuals are easier to. To get an idea of what I'm saying, okay, I'm. But let me, if I can, move this box.


Okay, so where do we go first? Slightly slain the dragon is really about and when you have the prince and the princess, like in a fairy tale model, then.


What most people miss out is Prince means princess, and then they fall in love and live happily ever after. But the missing piece is that in the fairy tale, the prince and princess have to lift some, which is curse that slay the dragon and have to go through some ordeal. And that is the key for them having a happy ever after now.


So what exactly is the dragon? So the problem in relationships is like Timewell says, when you marry someone, you marry a set of problems. And if you didn't marry them, you wouldn't have those problems, but you'd have a different set of problems. And John Gottman talks about 68 percent of problems are unresolvable. So let's look at exactly what that is and how you can manage that within a relationship.


So basically, the problem is that when two people get together, they got a different idea. They both have different views. They've got different slightly different values, perspectives, experiences of where they see that they're going. So we might talk about in the big picture, you know, we both want kids. We both want this kind of life. But even when we're agreeing on that, the specifics of what it's going to look like are very different. And so the differences between our views and where we're both heading is the dragon that we have to slay.


Does that make sense to everyone so far? Yeah, think so, right, the big things that people argue about are money, sex, children, how you raise them, in-laws, friends, career, all of these kind of things and the differences that one person might like to be really frugal. One person might see money as fun, sexy type and quantity children one parent might restrict. One parent might be really relaxed. One person might want to see themselves as a small family unit and not have much contact with others.


One might be really social and want people living around the house. So let's talk about what kind of problems. People have so let's just stop there for a minute, let's look at the chart and if anyone wants to. Stepan. It's interesting said that John Gottman said that six people would say what was the 68, 68 percent of problems unresolved?


So they got problems into solvable problems and unsolvable unresolvable problem, unsolvable problems.


I mean I mean, considering there are quite a lot of relationships that at least go on for a while, that seems like a no. Yes, but what they what they mean by that is. That the problems are. The problems are personality differences. There's value differences there, slight ways in like instead of the big five that people argue about is money, sex, children, the extended family. So. If we look at a chart, so let me see what I it's not necessarily that.


Documentation's OK, okay, but the things that people disagree on, there's a pattern. So what it means is when people disagree in a long term relationship, it's the same problem reoccurring over and over again. Does anyone recognize that in their relationships? Yeah, yeah, so it's usually like one person is always like one person leaves their clothes lying around on the floor, one person, those kind of things. So they kind of patterns of behavior, which is based in differences in the way that you see the world, the way you operate in the world.


So let me get back to. This site, these are the problems and. Move that, okay, so typically I write something on this last week that someone said, well, you know, like, I'm always compromising in my relationships and then it doesn't work out, but. Typically, people say that you compromise in a relationship. So this is the difference between them is is that basically the dragon and compromises like you go halfway and you both give up something.


But what that means is that Niva is happy. So they're both getting a substandard result. I just mean, this is where the basis is for people to settle in relationships. So I so rather than so if you've got past here, you've got person B here on C, Pilar Opposite's.


When you slay the dragon, basically what you're doing is you're making a point C, which is what I would call like a sculpted solution. So when you have a compromise, it means that you give up something in order for the full harmony. And so what eventually happens is you basically lose yourself and you don't get what you want and you expect and hope that the other person gives up what they want for the sake of the harmony. But eventually what that means is never, never is happy.


So the relationship basically isn't working for either side. So when I'm talking about a sculpted solution, what I mean is when you understand the differences between you, when you understand where the problem came from, you're able to. Grow said, rather than give up something, you're basically growing. And your understanding each other at a higher level, so.


Got a little bit out or ahead, so for me, problems are really the gateway to deeper understanding and deeper connection. A chance to understand more about each other. So. When we look at the closeness of a relationship is about how intimate we are and the intimacy that we have is based on how much we show the other person and how much they we see of them. So the way that humans connect is through self disclosure, is through understanding each other at a higher level.


So when we like strangers, we just judge on face value people we like. We have a little bit of a snapshot from social interactions, friends. We know a little bit about that personality. We know what they like. We know what they like to be around close friends. We might share our hopes and hopes and fears, but family, we have more. Affiliation, they're part of who we are. So. So it's really when you have a problem, what you've got up here.


You've got kind of an iceberg and you've got the stated reason that someone said in the. Above is like what's above sea level, and so that's what we work off, but underneath that, there's all these assumptions and sense of identity and all these kind of things that underpin the real problem. And so slaying the dragon is about uncovering all of this. And. So what I'm talking about, the sculpted view, like John Wanamaker said, that 50 percent of advertising is wasted, but I just don't know which half.


And in the same way, most of our beliefs are wrong, but we just don't know which ones. So when we go through life, you know, like we if you look back at the history of civilization, it's full of assumptions that are wrong, that the earth is flat, that we're at the center of the universe, all of these things that over time, as we develop our knowledge, we learn we were operating on a false premise.


And the same way in a relationship, we'll find that most of the things that we think that we want, the things that we think that we really value are really important to us. Often actually wrong. And so the way that slaying the dragon and sculpting is in having the communication to be able to talk about what the real problem is, to be able to analyze. Exactly. What why you how the assumptions, the beliefs that you do? And then in finding that you're able to find what's actually true and what.


It's just something that you misled, misinterpreted, and then you go for this to come to. I like point C in where we can. A point in here, so it's not a compromise, but it's something where we've both grown to to a better solution. But let me just go back. So does that make sense so far? Tell me if I'm leading you anywhere. I'm I'm I'm struggling, said for me, a compromise is is if you have like three warring parties, then they compromise.


This way you find a solution. Isn't that. OK, I think this is a matter of. Syntax really is really what this compromise mean. Yes, Nancy. Yes, but mostly compromised. Means that people compromise their beliefs. Yeah, I want to agree.


And so once you've compromise, you believe you've compromised who you are. OK, and if you still are if you still believe it, but you say, OK, I believe this, but I'm going to do this.


Your actions are out of line with what you believe. Yes, they say, but but you can have a compromise without compromising yourself. Yeah, so so what I'm saying is, is rather than compromise, I believe this, but I'm going to do this rather than compromise in that way. You work on what other beliefs you're talking about behavior that.


No, no. Yet compromise is when you change your behavior, but you don't change your beliefs. And we have an example. Like a working life example. OK, so thank you, Margaret. So I can think of one that happened between me and my son, for example, yesterday, but I don't think it was a wee compromise. It wasn't like a belief behind. It was just Wilmont. It one thing going to know if I wanted another thing.


So we had to find a win win situation, which is not right. We didn't really have to compromise our beliefs in that scenario. So if you got a situation where it's about compromise and beliefs, you you able to talk about that?


It was only a little I just wanted to go shopping and I knew I was going shopping just to get food shopping or go on my own last minute. He says, you know, I'm not feeling very well. I was the only one right to go and whatever. And I said, well, I don't really feel like going on my own to feel more secure. He came with me and ended up just being a compromise. He was happy to call me if it meant that he was allowed to buy an extra room that you wanted as soon as it saved enough money.


So he didn't have to wait for it. And he was happy to do it and he was happy to come out shopping like that.


And then so I got what I wanted and he got something else that he wanted.


OK, OK, so. So what? Kind of what you did with sorry, sorry. Sorry, but isn't there a difference between negotiation and compromise and in some instances, some instances, it's it's really negotiating to get something done that has to make sacrifices.


Sometimes I was willing to make a sacrifice at that point. And you just said, no, you know, I'll come with you. So in that scenario, obviously, we all need to make sacrifices sometimes as well.


Okay, so it wasn't really like it wasn't a big sacrifice. It was a sacrifice you were willing to to make in order to get a small example.


OK, so that's a sacrifice is actually compromising and going backwards. Whereas I actually like having something where someone says you can have this if I have as a bargaining state is actually going forward. So once at once.


But yeah, OK. But let's look at a problem that would break a serious relationship.


OK, so one wants a child, one doesn't want a child, for example.


Okay. Because that is something, Soki, that you're willing you would rather leave the relationship than than give up on. So there there are negotiations, like you said, that could work to fix a small problem in order to move forward. But what we're talking about, the problems that break relationships are things like the baby don't want a baby in the move house across the world and not wanting to do that, those kind of things. There are problems that break relationships.


And so a compromise can't work really in there because someone is giving up something that they really care for in order to preserve the relationship. Does that make sense? Yeah, so so what I'm talking about there, where is that kind of problem that's going to break the relationship is you have to. Then work out, what do you really want? And so in the same way, it's sort of in the same process that what you did was you worked out.


You went kind of a layer of what you know, why is it really important to you? Why is it really why don't you want to do this? Why don't you want to do this? And then you were able to find a middle ground. So it's similar in that sense. But it's it's about understanding more of the person. Is understanding what that really means to them so so in terms of if it's about a baby, then you need to get to the truth of it.


Is there any point of, like, commonground? And so why why does one person want the baby? Why does the other one definitely know? And there's going to be all kinds of assumptions and beliefs about that is going to be like.


I hated my childhood. It was horrible. I don't want to bring someone else up into that childhood. I need to feel secure. I need to feel like I've got a certain amount of money that I can bring a baby into the world or someone else might be like, I need a baby because I'm not going to feel complete without a baby. I need a baby because I need that love. And sometimes people who want babies isn't like the baby isn't going to solve the problem.


But there's a problem that they're looking for connection. They're looking for love. They're looking for belonging. And they think a baby is going to give that to them. Does that make sense? Yeah, so is trying to find out what's behind that door. I for one or not one.


Yeah, and if you really get to me and you understand each other the deepest, deepest level and you can appreciate you got lucky, like it's really important to you that you want to. Baby, I'm not will s not willing. You know, there's nothing on me that's changing. It's really important to me.


That's when, you know the relationship is going to work and we can't come to a compromise at that point or one's not willing to give the little for the other or vice versa.


Yeah. And that's when and then there was so much animosity because, you know. Exactly. The relationship just isn't going to work because it's something so key. And so and so you even uncover the solution or you get clear on what is the breaking point of the relationship. That's why I think it's OK to talk about these things prior to getting into a relationship to have sort of sad things.


Yeah, yeah, yeah, definitely. I mean, before you get like white people got married without ever having discussed this. So mostly we just stumble into relationships. Let me just go back, because I think there's a little bit more on here before we discuss it a bit more. OK, so. Right, so now dragons are really a metaphor. And so this is Joseph Campbell and Joseph Campbell just basically studied. He spent his life reading books and then looking at the meaning behind them.


So he he came up with what's called the modern mayfly, the hero's journey of what the key stages of basically every story that's ever been told.


And then he looked at what was what the metaphor and symbology behind it was and what he says. The dragons basically represent greed. And so he said there's a difference between a European version of the Dragon and the eastern version of the Dragon in their mythologies. But the Europeans are lucky. The Knights, where he was slay and dragons were basically gods, things like gods, like heaps of gold and virgins. And it's not that he can make use of them.


It's about greed, it's about the ego and what he says is basically the ego is our dragon's cage. So the point my point in including that is that basically underneath here. And as in Vladimir Vasiliev in martial arts, and he says the goal isn't really in training to acquire techniques and fancy moves, but it's learning to control pride, irritation, fear, anger and self-pity.


So. So really, the first thing to slay the dragon is to understand what they're fighting about and what has happened, to make them believe what they do. So Howard Markman says that all four, all arguments or fights are really have deeper dynamics. We think we're fighting about something silly, but we're really fighting about something deeper. And some of the core themes are power and control, care and closeness and respect and recognition.


So. Is understanding, like, is the problem one of identity? Like someone doesn't feel respected, someone doesn't feel recognized, understood, loved, or is the problem in their assumptions, like, for example, in having a baby? People have assumptions about what they have to be, who they have to be, what is going to mean losing. What is going to mean gaining. So it's uncovering all of that.


So there are basically sit six basic dimensions of a problem. There's the obstacle. Between achieving the problem or the obstacle between you, there's someone said in a chat about expectations is about expectations, an outcome. So when there's a difference between the outcome and our expectations, was the problem in our expectations or was the problem in the outcome? It's about the assumptions about what we believe is true. That might not be true. It's about communication. And not being able to communicate at the deepest level is really about identity and ego.


All right, so let me just stop this, right? So does that make sense? I think so. What is the argument, the underlying issue of the argument is always one of them catagories.


So, right. Do you want to discuss this more privately and break out first, or do you want to discuss it here together? The general consensus never took over because of a small group this week. I don't know anyone else. Yeah, I think together as well. Yeah, I agree. Yeah, yeah, it's quite it's quite nice when there's a small group that way we can can see everyone on one page.


OK, so.


Errol, as a nominated target for tonight, in the light of that, do you feel how far down the field that you went in slaying that dragon? On my watch that we discovered what the drug was. You didn't discover what the dragon. Well, I don't think so. Um, the little thing in the group, I'm not quite sure. The reason why I picked on communication is the issue is because I'm not really. Sure, exactly why?


And I don't think she can articulate why as well. And thinking about it. I think psychologically, I didn't get what I needed from the relationship. I compromised. All the time. Or because the idea was, I suppose I was old, well, I am old school, I guess, you know, you just got to make it work. You know, this is not like shopping in Sainsbury's, I don't like this loaf of bread. I could get another one.


So whatever it is, you got married. That's it. If it's you know, if you don't think it's quite right for you, just tough, you just get on with it. But well, that's OK. I think what I also didn't do was, I suppose, have what I would call meaningful conversations. And so I just put up with it, but then the result of the cost of that in terms of my personality, was that I.


Without realizing, actually, now that I reflect on it, without realizing I pulled away from the relationship, you know, I just got on with the everyday things, you know, you run your own business, you get on, you make the money, you you know, you help out with the house, this that the other. But you're not really engaged as such. That emotional bond isn't there. So you're just running through your routine, you're doing all the stuff you're supposed to do, so when you look at it on paper, you're a perfect husband.


You know, go to work. You come back, you know, you you help out with the kids, you do the cooking at the weekends and then all the rest of it you wash up. But if you're not engaging on a personal level. You are not really with each other, there's something missing and that affects other parts of your relationship, affects your intimacy. For example, intimacy becomes another poem but embarrassing and to the point of being open like this.


But it becomes routine. It becomes, dare I say, just sex rather than lovemaking, for example. And that is not satisfying. So I think. The kind of that's that's where we were at this, as far as I can understand that although I suppose she felt that as well and didn't quite understand the South until the time came and she just broke up.


I think that happens. I think it happens in most relationships. When you look at most relationships, you know, like that the analogy of the iceberg. I think most relationships kind of long the iceberg without dipping very much underneath and because we don't depend on if we don't really know what the problems are. Yeah, so you said that you compromised. What did you compromise and what did it make you feel? Well. I suppose I compromised in the sense that I put up with things that I don't.


You know, rather than saying, look, I don't like the way you may be behaving or you may be doing things, it's not to say that they are forcing us to change, but just say, well, if it causes me issues, therefore we need to sit down and figure out what we need to do about it. Instead, I either ignored it or put up with it or compensated for it. So, for example. She will find it hard to make a decision.


So I might say to look, how about we do this or we do that, or I might be at a point where I can't make up my mind which way to go, and she would she wouldn't be able to help me because she can't make up her mind either. She finds it difficult to make up her mind. And so I will compensate for that by just taking charge and getting on with it. But then that has me controlling. And I know because I'm saying, well, hang on a minute, you can't make up your mind so and decisions to be made.


So I've just gone and done it. I have exactly so on. And then, of course, because she doesn't feel involved, she feels I'm taking charge. And worse than that, if it all went sideways, she would be standing on the sidelines and saying, I told you so. And now you screw this up fit, you'll figure it out on your own. I'm not helping you because you never involved in this in the first place. And to me, that signaled, well, I can't rely on you.


You're not there. You're not supporting me. You know, you are the one person in this world that I would expect to be there when I've fallen down, and yet you are on the sidelines kicking me. Just so it kind of escalates from so rather than me saying, well, look, we have a problem here, you can't make a decision, but then you feel that I'm walking along with you when I make the decision. But sometimes maybe I don't have the patience or whatever to involve you in the decision making process.


I just went ahead with it and I just carried on, and when those kind of issues came along, I just ignored them. I kind of thought, well, that's the way she is. She's not going to back me up. I just carry on other than builds up resentment. On my part and then Bill, because I feel that. I'm on my own. I'm meant to be in a relationship where I got someone watching my back, but actually I'm on my own.


That's the way I will feel. And she probably feels this guy's supposed to be there to love and care for me, nurture me, look after me, all the rest of it. And there is a bully making all the decisions as if my opinion doesn't count. For example, you know, again, you want one issue, you know, I. You said at the beginning, you said you said that, so kind of in that sense, what you did in that sense is compromise.


You gave up things. Which means that you've got less experience, which means like the relationship was less rewarding for you, so you withdrew from the relationship ultimately?


Yeah, I mean, I actually only realized that once with this once we got divorced, as it were, or at least we were going through the process. And I was I went through a lot of self reflection, as you do, you know, why did it happen? What went wrong? And you go through all the things. And then I started, as you quite rightly put it, in the past, getting beyond the narrative and getting into the well.


How did it make me? What is the real cause of that to make me feel? What was the driving? What was the motivation? And as I as I got into that, I kind of understood that. Yeah, I mean, I think you and I had pulled away from the relationship, I just didn't realize it at the time, you know, I mean, she she had complained about the bedroom, for example, and for me.


It's not that, again, I'm just being very open here. But for me, it was. I suppose it was very boring. I felt like a performer, you know, it was a it was like a circus. I have to kind of get her going, get myself going, perform at the right time, you know? And for me there for those intimate moments where all it was like it was almost like a negative effect for me.


Because I was withdrawing and the reason for that was because the emotional connection wasn't there and the emotional connection wasn't there because I didn't feel valued or backed up the one person that's supposed to be looking after me, I wasn't there for me. At least that's the way I felt. And the reason why I felt that was all these little things where, you know, I will do something and she isn't there to back me up, she isn't there to help me pick up the pieces.


Instead, she is kind of saying, well, I told you so to get around to it, so you'll sort it out is your problem.


And so then the narrative becomes she doesn't care. Like, why my niece?


Yeah, because because like I said then and things like that, you know, it leads to other issues. And then she will say, oh, you know, you don't care because obviously poor women as well. You know, intimacy is quite important as it is for men. And if you see it as a chore, if you see it as a done, then you know, you don't want to engage in it because I don't have any intentions of once or anything like that.


It's because. You know, when I say I am probably more touchy feely than she is, in a way, I wouldn't be as joke. The fact that I was more like a woman and she was more like a man, that when I say let's cuddle up, I mean exactly that, you know, just cuddling and just being nice and sweet nothings or something together. And for her, it will be like, OK, we cuddled up, let's go for the main course.


And, you know, and for me, it was like, you know, I want to build up a relationship here, you know, I want to build something up. I don't want to just dive in. And I said, OK, because for me that has been built up. Yet I wasn't at that stage. I was the initial step. So I don't know if that disparity exists. I mean, I kind of understand myself better through this experience and I'm kind of trying to figure out how she must have felt.


You know, obviously, the communication that she never had the discussion to go a little bit deeper about what what sex meant to both of you to talk about.


Like you said, you didn't get what you needed. Did you ever discuss that or. No, not really. So partly because I wasn't even aware of this myself, to be honest, I had subconsciously pulled away because of these things, although it never reflected to say, why am I feeling discontent or anything like that? For me, it was like, well, you know, you just have to, OK, this is the way it is.


And you just put up with it and you get on with it. It to have. For. Then obviously, after once she made up her mind, she wanted the divorce and all the rest of it, and we had the opportunity to do so, but it didn't happen, which is altogether another story, I suppose. And looking back now. When you look at, you know, like if you look at how Monklands was about respect and recognition, care and Hosokawa and care and closeness, or was it about.


Power and control, do you think? It's about it's about trust. I mean, I had a similar thing with Momis, this this little thing. And thank you, Carol, for being so honest, as always. Thank you. Yeah, it's on the table. I live in London. Getting on the Chaib is always been a bit more difficult for me. And basically I get on the tube and I get angry with people. If they shut me out the way I like my message would always she would always take me at the side of the other person.


She always stick up for that, and I used to say to her, like, why are you sticking up for that? You're supposed to be sticking up for me. And then there were other times where she'd got annoyed and she'd really blow up on someone. And I'd be like, well, you're doing the same thing like. Yeah, but you just don't say the space, but but I always felt that she never mimesis, never back. Basically, she always she was always looking for a way, it seems.


Say that I wasn't saying why should be the space, but I felt the trust wasn't there and it's trust. Trust is the word. I think you want someone to back you like your life partner is the person that should back you. So even if you're wrong, they should still stick up for us because they know you were an idiot. But they should back you because like you and I know if they knew you were wrong in way, then obviously there's always one way then that doesn't seem right.


If they genuinely knew you was wrong and something isn't good for you to sort of encourage you to grow in that aspect.


Yeah, but if they did the same thing that you're with and they're telling you all day and what you would do it, but that doing the same and you're telling them you're doing the same thing on their own. Then that what I understand. Go ahead. So, I mean, I. Funnily enough, I have similar issues, but the other way round, so if we were, let's say, in a car or something, I live in London as well.


But if let's say something happened and I felt she was wrong, like Sasha says, I wouldn't pick her up. I would say, well, actually, they might be doing this or, you know, she will blame somebody on the road, road rage or whatever in a road rage. And I might say, well, actually, they might be in a hurry because they're going and they're not paying attention to what's going on. They might not be intentional.


It's not personal. And she will the straight of a flare up and say, you're never on my side. And and it was unbelievable. I mean, how can you be sure that that I intended to do this on purpose or whether it might be that they were just not the careless driver or something? But you can always assume things and she will see that as a negative. But I think those things, perhaps again, are what what attracts us or perhaps the narratives are not the real issue.


The real issue comes back to exactly what you said is trust. Can I trust you to be there for me? Because if I want to be there for you blindly, no matter what. That's not a healthy thing. It's just like social, says SoloHealth. The thing you should tell me, it's about washing your your laundry, your dirty laundry in public. If they don't like what you do, then they stand by and then they tell you after the event, I thought you were wrong by back that that should be the way.


Oh yes.


I mean, if you are saying public humiliation, that's different. If she stands in front of everybody and says, oh, of course you're not. You're the wrong one idiot. Of course, you should get out of the way while you're standing looking like a lemon and in front of everybody, of course, that is going that is humiliating in front of everybody. And that's not a nice thing to do anyway. Regardless, there is a subtle way to do it.


There's a place to do that in front of everybody from the place all the time. I mean, the example I'm giving you is just both of us in a car on a road driving and having this argument because I didn't join her road rage to say, yeah, what an idiot, you know? And I'm saying, well, actually, you know, you need to slow down or you're driving too fast as well. So you're looking at other drivers a chance that she'll kind of go, well, you'll never on my side anyway.


So think driving growth is better arguments than anything.


But there's an issue of concern, I find, that comes into play in this where and you can think that the person is not showing enough concern about your well-being, which ties into trust. But there are times when you need somebody you need to feel supported because of what's happening. And it's not just about between you two. It's it's safer.


You're in an environment where there are other people involved in all that stuff and you are standing your ground, but you need support and the person is your partner is retreating, shooting you and really not being there to support you.


In other words, you so you feel very insecure, you feel very vulnerable. And their way of dealing with the matter is just to recede, just to come out of the whole thing.


OK, I take great umbrage at OK, I'll give you an example when this might not even be a very good example, but nonetheless I go into a group of people and being introduced by my husband and these gentlemen come in.


Oh, that's the little wifey. No, that's the worst thing you could ever do to me. And nobody's little wifey. And I would smile and I said to him, by the way, I'm not a wifey. I have a name. And you got my name from my husband. I am. And my friends call me Betty. I said, I'm Betty. Oh, so, so, so what, what? And he's really not but he's getting angry because how dare I tell him not to call me wifey in front of his friends because he's a doctor, somebody and he's important.


And my husband just. Utter silence.


He just stood there and he just looked at me and it was like how you have done it again, because I'm known for my short term, OK, but he knows that I hate that kind of thing. Do not do it. I don't do it to people. Do not do it because I find it very belittling. So in the in these situations, though, is the best thing not to do is to afterwards like peace and than to go and discuss it afterwards and say, you know, this this not just in your situation, son, but just in general.


And when sort of these social things happen to go back and discuss it later and to be like, you know, this upset me or can we do it this way? Or could you say this next time or so that you kind of build like some social attacks on how to support each other and make each other feel secure in the future?


I think these are really these are examples of the dragon that you need to slay. These are ways of operating that you need to understand at a deeper level and come to an agreement on what you wrote about me.


OK, as I said, we've been married for 34 years, OK, from the beginning, he knows that about me. I have always maintained that. So it's a discussion that we've had. We've had it several times when he when we got married first it was this sort of thing or and I said, listen, do not in public or whatever, you can call me whatever name you want at home and all the rest of it. But please, I really hate and I know people think that I'm very fuzzy and I'm miserable and all the rest of it, but I'm not any.


But I'm not your sweet, your sweetheart or darling, your honey bunny, whatever. I'm public. Don't do it.


That would laughter but I don't care. I you I'm it. OK, so he knows if I said to him do not do it, I don't like it. Call me by my name if you want to call me darling. Honey I tell him it's fine. Whatever but do not dare. I said it's a term and you have to understand I in my working life I have had to be. And I come from a society where women are preyed on OK and honest, where girls are treated.


Women are treated in a professional sense as deers and sweethearts and honey and what have you and that kind of thing.


So it really it irritates me and I feel I have to stand up for it. So I set my I set my stall out. I don't want any of those names because I am a professional and I have to be like that. You can't I can't beat that at work. And then out in the public, I'm seeing the same people. You are doing so under the iceberg of that, though, it's respect, isn't it? It's respect exactly the feelings you set boundaries.


And I generally think that with that, with someone that's I understand your boundaries, but it's a working relationship. So sometimes you have to reset those boundaries and sometimes it causes problems and other signs, I suppose. It causes more problems. It's resolved and that it's if you understand what I mean, it's sad. It's been the norm. It's ongoing. It's it's to me I shouldn't have to worry about it now.


And it's the trust that they should know your boundaries. But if they don't know your boundaries, then you should tell them. Yes. So so your questions such as did you tell them yes. Afterwards, like you back them because they tell you both, but like afterwards you tell them what what what you didn't like about it, basically. And it's unsafe way obviously. But you have to you have to in a relationship, you have to constantly re I mean, Rob would tell you, I'm sure that you have to constantly look at boundaries and the boundaries basically, but you have to always set the boundaries of who because it's who you are.


So and who they are, your relationship. So. It's also recognizing what respect means to each person, what trucks means to each person, because that's that's more refined levels. I just want to say that Debbie had something to say. I just want to bring Debbie in before we go too far. Oh, it's going back a bit.


But I was just thinking when Pete was talking about how his partner would do the same things that she criticized him for, I think people do that a lot and it's like they're projecting onto you and it's easier to see your weaknesses in other people. And it's almost like they see them in you, but they don't see them in themselves when people lack insight. They do that a lot.


I think at that point, though, it's probably best to say you you know, it depends like you say, Debbie, or both people on the inside, it's like, oh, yeah, actually, we both do this and let's both work on it together.


Yeah, but and that's why I'm single. Yeah.


Like so much a hierarchy of a hierarchy of things that was of importance. In other words, some things we can't compromise on, we feel we can't compromise on. There are some that yeah.


It's, it's all it's, it's important but you can accommodate certain things and and vice versa.


But I think that if you the individual actually understanding yourself first.


Yes. But the other person, the other person in the relationship doesn't understand who we are. And that I understand in the early days. Certainly that I understand. Our boundaries, and so we all have boundaries, and it's when you say to them, I have this boundary that and they cross that boundary, that's when it causes problems and they might do it. Like, that means it, but they do it and it's difficult for them not to, but they it's what and then you have to say what I got the minute you cross the boundary like Bugs Bunny, I always talk about Bugs Bunny.


Bugs Bunny, there's Bugs Bunny guards. Everybody says, don't come over this line. And the guy steps over the line and he's like, don't come over this one.


But sometimes you need to be able to articulate why that boundary is the way it is for the other person to understand. And that's where sometimes I find that I have a difficulty because I have to get very short tempered or I think it's obvious or, you know, or something. But I think that for you to to to to to see the boundary that you need to be clear in your mind as to why it is a boundary for you. It's so important and that if you're asked you, you should be able to articulate that to the other person to ensure that they see what it is that is actually underpinning your reason.


I agree. And and my relationship, I wasn't very articulate and I have a lot more sense than I ever knew when I was in the relationship. And I wish I had now the that I have now. But I suppose but sometimes when it's it's only when it's when it's ended that you have the knowledge to understand, I suppose.


Well, I think the key so we're talking about Slater Dragon, and it doesn't matter, you know, like someone can do something once. You know, like you talked about, you know, we've had three different examples, and if they learn from that and you had this discussion and you and you gradually, even once, twice, three times, if you were making progress and it took that long to understand each other's ways of operating, then.


And you knew that the future that wasn't going to be repeated, but it's like we have these automatic ways of operating and sometimes like, you know, like an arrow sense and in Congress is that. We just like when we try and make any change, even for ourselves, you know, it's like the diet starts Monday, the we're going to do this habit next week or we're going to start the gym. It's always hard. And so it's hard to to do it, to do something different.


And when you're maybe not, you know, you're not understanding like, for example, Sandra, in your instance, I can imagine that that was probably something even he didn't know how to do it or he was scared of doing it. But there's something. So it's a big thing to do. And in order to do any of these things, like when you look at our problems, it's problems of like we have obesity, we have addiction, we have debt.


We have, you know, like not wanting to speak up in public that the problems are really problems of that deeply entwined in who we are. And it's in our sense of identity and our sense of I can't speak up is in our sense of I have to stand up for myself, all of those things. So it's a deep, deep problem. So it's not something that you're just going to say to someone, you know, like his boundaries, but it's boundaries that you have to constantly uphold them.


And I'm constantly changed as well, yeah, because the other thing is that you have to change them based on what the other person, the input that you get as well. Yeah, you have to understand whether that compromises you. And if it doesn't compromise you, then then you can judge. That's compromise for me, that's compromise. So for me, a relationship is a compromise. So so you meet another person that you didn't know until about 10 minutes ago and then you compromise because, you know, you didn't know you're going to think.


But like you say, you've got a guy. Sometimes you have got to go somewhere else. Because there's something is that to you and it isn't so deep to that you have to raise it, you have to reassert those boundaries, but sometimes you have to change your boundaries. In order to keep the relationship good, if you cared more about the relationship.


OK, so if you are to do that and to compromise, doesn't that in some way make your life less than it was? I'm not so sure, not because like like Sandra was talking out of there about an ego is a thing which is the ego is the bit of you. That's the bit that's unrefined. It's like the it it's like the it's like the wild personality and like all of us. Before we meet someone who makes us who chips the edges off, then you're just like this unrefined until you find someone else and then between the two of you, you make a new something.


And the problem is getting lost to me. The problem is, two, if you become an object, which then becomes. The same object. They said that that's where it goes is problem because you become the same thing and then you start to lesia it and. And that's amazing thing. So whether Dragonite or not, I don't know. OK, so I come from a different position, so so in terms of the ego, like how Freud said it was like the child I want, I want I want the ego is the more developed he's taken on a sense of identity, it's interjected the light society's ideas.


And it's it's why it's it's it's basically like the projection of your your sense of self in the world that knows quite what.


But even the ego is quite low in the sense of, like, his selfishness, yeah, and the edge is that atavistic stuff, basically. So that's that's the base. That's the ultimate Bellvue. That is why I am without any boundaries. I mean, with no boundaries. The ego is me with boundaries which I'm given, which basically I'm not sure that I like, but basically that that's then the expansion of the ego. That is the war, that is how I relate to everything, okay, so for you, compromise is civilizing the.


For me, compromise is just how you make an agreement, suppose. Is this like. I've only had one night proper relationship, so it's a bad thing for me to say it's in a relationship like compromise is what you do to smooth the edges, to make things work. But I would never compromise myself that I would never, ever say I would never compromise with. If I didn't agree with it. There's no way I'd compromise if it would compromise myself.


So in terms of compromise, are you saying something that makes you a better person? Some agreement with other people, with other people in society is what makes it so, yeah, for me, compromise is what makes society best. This is how I how I check my jazelle to to make something better. But like the great guy, the sum of the parts is right now. But without describing the sum of the parts. But what about then when you take someone like Martin Luther King who, because he refused to compromise, changed society or Gandhi or, you know, like the Apple adverts, is the crazy ones who change the world because they refused to be changed?


Yeah, but this isn't a relationship with the with the woman like my relationship with the world. Yeah, I don't compromise there is there a bit to me I don't compromise, but my relationship with the woman would be one that I was in a relationship with, which I'm no longer in the relationship with after nine years that really affected. So that has affected the way that I then have a relationship with the world. But I don't compromise with the. I compromise with my lady or the woman that I like, I apologize for the that, but I'm prepared to compromise our relationship in a way that I'm not prepared to compromise with the world.


Why? Because. I want to make Ayna because I want to make it like a man or woman, but man is from Mars, women from Venus, we're from different places. And I want to make it worth. But I don't want to compromise myself. But in a work relationship or any other relationship, I'm not prepared to compromise. I'm only I'm only prepared to compromise in a relationship with the. Basically, and that is only to Makua.


Any other relationship, I still want to make it work, but I'm not going to compromise, and that's like that one. Yeah, I know that.


I know what you mean. And I'm the same at work. I'm not willing to compromise, but in my relationships. And I am willing to compromise because. Because there's love and because you want to make it work, is are you seeing things, are you compromising about the same things, though? Because I would think that in a work environment, you are compromising about a different set of issues in the work environment.


I've been compromising for a while. I swear I like the glasses and I can't wear and watch, so I'm already compromised by. So it's just the way it's work they pay me and they told me to do something and they have power over me and I have to do what they say.


So where do you swear in front of. You're in front of your partner then.


Yeah, I just want to make my act on the labor. Yeah, but that's not a problem. That's another from that. No, no, no.


I had the distractions but yeah. I'm not saying I didn't have any. But in that respect, I didn't have to compromise, basically because she was well matched by. She swears was it got Caribbean or she is Caribbean. So, yeah, but. But you have to work what you have to compromise. It's like it's like they pay. But clearly they think that you have to compromise if you want to take their money and you have to think later.


So you have to you have to basically pay who they think you are or at least but you can still do what you want. And they also say, well, yeah, OK, I'm pretending to be you think, how can I do that?


That's a compromise, though, because it's a contractual arrangement wherein you receive money for work done. And that is a compromise. I mean, there is a there is a reciprocal arrangement if you do not leave.


But I had to compromise on that because I swear as well, I swear it is the one. But that's one thing I had to compromise. I had to compromise my life and I had to compromise.


My faith is I really got to can I can I just say that I mean, I'll be listening to this. But in terms of compromising, if if you are. Whether it's in a work or in a relationship. You should really not be compromising something that you feel is wrong. All yourself, you may compromised. OK, you want me to work three hours over time, but OK, if you pay me this much, I will do it as a compromise and at home, you may very well compromise in terms of, you know what, I'll do the house cleaning this week and you do it next week or something like that.


That's different to compromising, because if you start saying, well, I'll compromise whatever to make the relationship work, potentially you could end up like me in that you compromise so much that you kind of pulled away. And all the time I realized that was when I thought that we were going to potentially make up or at least try again and start all over again because we were seeing a counselor and I thought I better make a list of things that I want changed in this new relationship.


And she makes a list of things she wants change. And because they didn't ask us, I just want my own way. I just thought of it that way. And when I sat down and I wrote, all the things that I felt were wrong is when I realized how much I compromised and how much I put up with in my. I'm not saying that she is wrong and I'm right. All I'm saying is that from my point of view, how much I felt I put up with, there were lots of things that I wrote on there and I thought, oh, my God, I've been putting up with all these things.


And no wonder I feel or I felt some disaffection throughout time. So I think when we talk about compromising, we have to be very careful about what we were saying here.


I found them.


How long were you together with this woman, your your wife at the time the divorce papers came through the clutter. Twenty four years and three kids. Well, I think twenty four years. Life is times and maybe like one is there's another guy there. I mean the first time you see that's the thing. I mean I. Sorry, sorry. No, no go ahead. Go ahead. Finish.


All I'm saying is that that's not me. I mean, I got married and my upbringing was, you know, you get married and that's you, you make it work. And, you know, everybody is going to be a compromise, as you say, to some degree. The for the lucky few, there is almost nothing to compromise because they're such a perfect match. And, you know, that's great. But what you do is you try and work at it.


That's just me, so it wasn't a case of, well, you know, we've been long enough, let's now out from bang on from being on the East Coast for many weeks. Yeah, it sounds like sometimes it's just luck, I guess. And sometimes, you know, like, you see that person just isn't right and she doesn't sound right for you.


And I think I think I think if I'm being totally honest, my lack of maturity or character for my own, you know, I'm talking about myself.


Yeah, but you're that you're always thinking. So I'm not thinking I'm guilty. I can see my faults. I can see her faults as well. I mean, if you ask me as her character is actually less mature than mine, I mean. Well, when they go together like you're your partner. She was she was a very confident person now. And through time, she's actually I try to create the environment for her so that so that she could find her own self-confidence.


And over the years, she's actually got enough self-confidence to redo her GCSE and then to a degree. And now she is actually funny enough this year, she finished her degree and she passed, but and now she did all the work right. So I'm not taking anything away from her, but I actively try to create an environment in which people could do so initially. It will be stupid things like I will answer the telephone in the house on purpose so that she would pick it up because she'd be afraid of talking to somebody.


What am I going to say? Well, just pick up the phone and talk to them. And I kept on pushing her out of a comfort zone because she didn't do that. She would never realize that actually she wasn't stupid. She had this. And that's mainly who does because he scripted her, that she was just she was a stupid, that she wasn't there. So I kept on pushing her out of her comfort zone. And then when our daughter was born and I was very much to teach her and take her through school.


And, you know, girls aren't just for making babies and food and there's more to life than all the rest of it. She kind of started thinking maybe there is something else I can do, maybe I can do this and I can do that. And one of the turning point for her was when we received one of these, you know, they put these leaflets and it was a free course course and she wanted to go, but she wasn't sure whether she would be good enough.


So I said to her, as it happens, luckily I've got a degree in I.T., so why don't you go and do this silly little course? Because there's nothing they're going to teach you that I can explain to you. So you write down what you don't understand in class. You come and ask me. And she did. And at the end of it, she got distinction and she was really happy. You know, I was like all of a sudden it was a light bulb.


Come on. Hey, I'm not stupid after all. You know, I can do these things. And so she then I started getting more interested in studying and so on and so forth. So when she started doing her GCSE and, you know, she's a mom, we got three kids and she is trying to be a part time in the school and, you know, just to get herself back into work, more type thing. So I said, all right, I'll do the best you can cooking.


So on every Friday, I come back from work or Saturday morning I get up early. I can do the food shopping. I come back, I do the cooking on the Saturday, Sunday, washing the dishes and try and overcook on a Sunday so that there's nothing to be cooked, hopefully on a Monday, Tuesday, maybe even Wednesday, you know. So she's got time to study because she trying to do the work. Yes. Yes, it is.


And then of course, and we choose up to degree level, so. You create the. What I'm saying is that maturity of character comes in understanding the other person, but also understanding your own weaknesses. So I'm not saying that. All the all the fault in the marriage was mine. I mean, you can't go through those feelings and it's normal and I certainly went through that initially, but I think when you start looking at it, you realize your own self-worth, you realize your own contribution to the relationship.


And she to credit you with all those things where she is not the she credit you with with what you all those sacrifices you made that she credit you with that was right now you mean.


Yeah. And does she appreciate what you did? To some degree, yes. But see, that's where I'm coming from because I think I did love my of as well by the guy around the bed, the breakfast. I think about that. I don't think I don't think she does credit me and I guess I do. Well, you say this is this is the conversation that isn't about luck. You are talking about, you know, people get lucky and it's not about luck.


It's about having the maturity of character to realize. I mean, if I was as mature in character now, because over the past year or so, you know, I went through a lot of self appraisal and so on. And so if I was as mature as this when I first got married, I might have said, you know what? This lady has got a number of issues and maybe I'm not good enough to deal with all this. And maybe, you know, I wouldn't have been going into a relationship with her, perhaps even and I might have gone for someone else.


But at the beginning, I did see some of her issues. But I was, I guess, naive or cocky. And I felt, you know, I can deal with this, I can get along with anybody and I can help her develop and doesn't. But it's not like you develop there. And then she back it up.


Basically, it sounds that way. But I mean, I have to say, this is not as black and white as that. And, you know, she's just she's not a she's all, after all, her fault. So I wouldn't sit here and say she is a bad person. You know, she didn't get out of bed and say, what can I do to make Earl's life hell?


I wouldn't worry about my message that I want to get out of my messes. And she wants it. But, you know. I've invested a lot of time, and I think she knows. Yeah, so I think just to underline it, compromise is fine, but you have to kind of be. I suppose in a way, an immaturity is not a binary thing, it's just a continuum. The more mature you are, the more able you are to understand how far you can compromise and whether you are comfortable doing it or not.


And so you have to be careful what you are compromising and whether you can live with that for the rest of your life. Are you just putting up with it or you're doing it with actual internal belief that actually this is fine. This is good. I'm comfortable. It is it isn't painful for me to compromise.


And, you know, aren't you chasing a bit of a moving target, though, in a sense? Because as we move forward in a relationship, we are evolving and evolving at different speeds. We are different parts of us are evolving. Different things become less important. Other things become more important. Take, for example, those relationships that fall apart because one partner becomes ultrareligious and the other one can't quite get it. Yes. And is adamant that, you know, it's not going it's not for them.


And so there is in that whole compromise discussion, what you start out with when you're just a couple are those are the knowns at that point. But as you get deeper into the relationship and other elements start to come in, you know, for example, when we were discussing babies coming into the equation or purchasing a whole or moving somewhere different to start a new, you know, migrating somewhere or what have you, even decisions made around job choices to work or not to work for one partner, those kinds of things.


But when you get beyond that, some of those, there is still another set of issues that come in. So you may have resolved some of those major ones, but no. And you think you're comfortable and then you realize, oh.


Here comes another set, a new set of employees. It's not a relationship sorry, it's it's like cleaning the cleanings constantly, you know, going to, you know, one day that you've done enough cleaning and that's it for the rest of the life. It's something you have to maintain every single day. And I think, you know, some people use the analogy of a relationship being like a God and you have to keep weed in it every day or it's just going to turn to ruin.


If you don't keep tending to the garden every day. It doesn't become a point in the relationship where you've got to a point where you've done enough tending to the God and now we can sit back and everything's going to be rosy. It just doesn't work like that. Right, I live in an ideal world, I would say I would agree with you, but I have seen instances of complacency are not necessarily on the part of both parties, but one is one becomes more complacent than the other.


And so one ends up doing a lot of work to overcome.


I'm not saying that's a fix.


All I'm I'm just I'm open up and just opening up what I have seen. Right. I agree with you, but I'm just saying that there are instances where I've seen where one party just is not equal commitment. Yeah, exactly. One party is still vested in the relationship, is making the effort and another one is has become quite, I wouldn't say disinterested, but is just coasting along.


Hmm. Yeah. Yeah. I think I was the guy but yeah. I mean you're right in that it's quite easy to settle into some form of a routine and then take the other person's contribution for granted I suppose. What then. Communication ought to kick in and hopefully but I guess more often than not it doesn't in terms of, you know, if you feel unappreciated or what you are putting in isn't being taken seriously, then, you know, can you have that what I would call meaningful conversation to say, actually, I feel undervalued here.


What I'm doing isn't you know, it doesn't seem to amount to anything. I mean, it's sort of the troikas in my relationship in that I remember us having arguments that I felt were really stupid because we were almost comparing what she is doing in Boram doing and who is doing is more important. It's like she would say to me, sometimes all you do is you look, you know, I have to look after the kids. There is ah to do the washing.


I have to either cook a meal and I'm thinking, well actually I do the all the cooking and shopping, all the stuff at the weekends. And yes, you do most of the cleaning around the house, but then I do the work. But the work I do isn't just I do the work, you know, that happens to I have to get up at 6:00 in the morning and I get back home about eight, nine in the evening sometimes.


And sometimes I don't get back home because I have to be in a check up in a hotel for three days, working constantly. So and then I come back and because it's my own business at the weekends, I'm doing all the paperwork. You know, I go to my own invoicing, I go to my own sales, I go to my own bookkeeping. So I've got all that overheads to do as well. And on top of it, I'm still going out shopping and cooking and all the rest of it and getting involved with kids and all the rest.


And it's not to say that what I did was more than what she did, but it's just that in her eyes, I just did my work. And if I was to ask her, well, what is that work, she wouldn't be able to explain it. So I don't know what it is. But you just do one thing. I do millions of things. You know, the fact that I did the ironing and I did the washing.


There are two jobs that I've done. You've just done one job, your work. And so these two sorry, these two things that I want to bring in, I thought would be like a big solution to a lot of the problems from reading about relationships and marriage and stuff is that I think it is good to always gauge that connection, like the magnetic sort of if you imagine that remark in your remark. You know, I think I've mentioned this before, and I think that's the easiest way you can feel that there's no connection and that this these like how do we men that how do we come back together and not keep retracting it?


That was one thing that I think is a good gauge of always being aware of this magnitude between your growth. And the second thing is that blind date for life always make time to have date night once a week where you know, the kids are taken care of, where you've got that time to connect. And I think that brings about a lot of connection and problem solving, just very naturally. So if not relationship maintenance, the. Yeah, perhaps that we didn't take the time out to certainly have time for just for ourselves.


Well, obviously we just applaud the long life. And as you quite rightly said, I mean, the conversation is, again, as Robert said, was the narrative, you know, who does more work is a nonsense conversation. There is something more deeper and fundamental in terms of perhaps feeling unappreciated is what she is trying to say.


Where we had this sort of date for life creates that connection in order for you to be able to open up to these things in other parts of the life. The health the health of the relationship is the level of connection to the bond that you have, and these kind of arguments are a sign that the connection is missing. I just want to throw in a few ideas, not in listening about the key to a relationship that works is can you be yourself?


Can they be themselves? And the relationship enhances your life, so the level of when you're talking about compromising, if it makes you less, if it makes your life less happy, if it makes you less, then that's a sign that the relationship isn't going to work. Because what you're looking for, the whole process of slaying the dragon is finding someone that you can say this dragon, that you can both be yourself and the relationship works. That's the sign that it's the right person.


So it was also talk about, like you, you will compromise and work because of the currency, because in exchange for the money, it means that you're willing to change.


But it's important to recognize that love is a currency as well. We don't think of it because we see economic money as a currency, time as a currency. Love is a currency. And the reason that we get into relationships is to love and feel loved. And so that is being conscious that there is a contract. It might not be written up like an employment contract, but there's a contract. I'm in this relationship because of I want to share my life with you because of whatever I want to get.


And the more conscious you are about the contract that you have, the easier it is to understand and to and to to have the relationship that works.


So one other thing I want to just put in to into the conversation is that in terms of compromise, like I think Harville Hendrix, there are a whole idea of relationship is that you grow as a person you like, you hear your childhood wins and you heal as a person from the differences that you have and. When when it's about like he's doing this, like it's easy, we don't love to learn about each and have money and never do anything, but it actually wouldn't make us happy is actually who we become in the challenge of life that brings us lasting lifelong happiness and meaning.


And in the same moment in the relationship, like we would, it would be ideal that someone else would do everything. But we really need to be the better person. And so. When we challenge ourselves that we refuse to accept substandard behavior, we make them a better person. So I don't know if that makes sense, but I'm hoping that can expand the conversation. Yeah, OK. I think I understand what you're saying in that I mean, obviously we didn't do that, but what you're saying, I guess, is that if you are.


Well, the weaknesses of the other person in some ways. You don't have to overcompensate in that that you feel you lost something. So, you know, a bit like, I suppose when I was when I took charge of the situation and then she felt that I was perhaps controlling. So I guess what you're saying is that you click in such a way that. You can do what you do is more or less automatically appreciate, I mean, I say automatic, I'm an automatic, but it's appreciated by the other person.


So your weaknesses. And they can help you see weaknesses in such a way that it ends up being a positive outcome because you're almost like, oh, thank you for showing that. Actually, I need to correct that and then they can help you with that side of things. Yeah, I don't know, maybe I totally misunderstood is superjumbo when you were talking about, you know, with your wife that she was scared to answer the phone or let's say, okay, why didn't you like.


Was how that's holding you back? I want you to be to be better so that you're happier, not because I want you to answer the phone, not because I want you to do this work or because I want you to do this. I I'm looking and I see that that's something that's holding you back. That's something my job is to support you. My job is to be there. My job is to challenge you, to be a better person.


Not for me, but for you. And this is like is this making like is hiding, making you feeling anxious, making you feel happier or less of a person? And so if if you can support them, you know, like, you know, someone isn't supporting you, like, OK, what's up? Because, you know, to you, Sandra's example, if someone isn't the partner isn't supporting. Right. He's got to go home.


And if someone has said nothing, he's got to feel like, you know, like I let her down. I was a man up there and he's going to feel that. And all of us feel we all feel at times we're not good enough. We all feel that we're underperforming and not as good as anyone else. And it's our fears. It's our inhibitions, all those things that hold us back from what we really want to day. And so if we are like.


If we compromise, we say, OK, that's okay, you'd be less of a person because I'm willing to accept this because I just want a easy life is a difference between an easy life and a really satisfying relationship. And so it's it's it's about. Getting to the root of why isn't it happening, is it happening, is it not happening from a fear, from a weakness, from a laziness, or is it happening from a fundamental. Different belief, and maybe you like your view of what's going on, because we all have views of what's going to make someone else happy, but it's one of the reasons why people can't often talk to their family because they have a view of what they should be doing.


But is it you have to get to is it really in their best interest or in what you think is in their best interests? S.O.P. Does that make sense? So does everyone agree with the idea that love is a currency or does that seem so alien? Now, I agree. I think it's really important to see your time and your attention and your emotional energy is valuable and it's something that is like a resource that you could put somewhere else. And so are investing that in in somebody and you could be investing that in your own goals and dreams or in another relationship.


So now I do agree that.


By by this law as a currency to remain a bit like making deposits into your emotional bank account, so to speak.


Yeah, I mean, basically we're used to seeing money as the currency. But what we haven't understood is money is a currency because we don't. Money exists because of a lack of trust. And so it's a shared measure so that we can we can know what the value of something is. And so a currency is is something that we want and something that we will invest time. We will swap another currency. So we might use money. We might use time.


We might use tension, energy.


All of these things are we swap one currency for another. And so. I've forgotten the specific ways that you using me.


Yes, I was using making deposits into account.


Yeah, some money. We want to be rich. Well, we have enough money to take care of what we need to do. We want enough love as humans. We can't operate fully without enough love, because if we don't have someone, it's like Paul said in the charity is about the support, what we're looking for in a relationship. We're looking for someone to trust us, believes in us, supports us. So that we can go out in the world and do everything else that we want to do, if we don't have that, if we don't have that from a family, we don't have from a partner, we don't have it from friends, we feel isolated.


We're constantly doubting ourselves, feeling anxious, we feel lacking. We're not going to be able to do anything else. So in that sense, yeah, love is, you know, like when we have that. Like, basically, trust is trusting that we're going to get that love from the other person. That the other person is going to work with us to get that. Resourced, I don't I really like the idea that money is love as a currency, because to me, love is always something that's a bit more beyond the athy.


So it's something that transcends all other things. But I have heard it said that when you in a relationship that is like a bank account, so you have to pay, you have to put love in and then you can withdraw love. And basically it's always good to be in. By credit space. Yeah, that's right. That is generally when you arrive at your place. That's when it goes down. Yes.


Our system, though, it's the reward you put in. You'll get what you put in, in a sense. So it doesn't whether you describe it as currency and currency, not meaning meaning money, but currency, meaning the reward that you get in currency.


It's just a matter of talking about the way that that is just a measure of that.


Yeah, I, I think what you need to look at there is the idea of the belief that you have about money because of money is seen as transactional, money is seen as less. That then means that you don't want to look at love in the same money. But time is a currency.


But we the time as a universal currency, which none of us can deal with this time, continues whether any of us care about it or not. Currencies is a way that where we're measured against other people. So who has more money as a way that we are measured against each other, whereas time is a measure that none of us actually have any control.


OK, so money we have a measure that has a value. It has a standard is over. We can touch it, we can pick it up. We know exactly what it's system.


That's right. So it's just become something which is a system of trade. So but it does also create status. Yes.


But such is love. So this time in a sense. But what's happened is we're in a capitalist society and so it's everything.


But love is the capitalist thing that. No, no, but it's the currency. We need money. Like we don't need money, but we need the survival. We need resources.


So, I mean I mean not to bang the religious drum, but that they like I was born a Christian and basically always grew up a Christian. Love for Christians. Love is everywhere. So if you choose to look for it is there. And like what you do is you give love all of that. And that's the way you deal with it so that they see. But in the same way this time, so it's money is so much more refined because there's so much more attention on it, because it's become physical and concrete.


But what I'm talking about.


Sorry, because people care about you, but people care about love, but it's just that we we the narrative that we have about love is that you can't you can't exchange it for money. And it's when you said it transcends. If you take money as the currency, it's not about all the things that we associate with money, but it's about a union survival.


I know what you're saying, but I think I think it cheapens a lot to talk about a lot of money, I think. But I have to say that that's one of my values. Yes. I love, love, Dumais, Transend, and I know like maybe Hollywood or whatever, but love can take you out. You know, you can be like a nowon. And if you find love, it can make it very happy basically. So.


OK, so just the challenge that. What does that mean? No one, because we owe someone. Well, not in terms of money, in terms of currency, not in terms of money, in terms of currency, in terms of capitalism, that no one of us are born equal, but all of us can equally find love and love can totally transact and elect someone that goes to fix the air conditioning in somewhere like the amps that can can quite happily find yourself in love with whether that which can seriously look like complete allow us to improve his situation.


I say, I think what people are saying is that he agrees with the metaphor, he just feels like it's a cheap, powerful fellow, like it's not a perfect metaphor because it's more valuable than money. But here is the metaphor of money. A little bit like the that.


Yes.


I want to get to is that when you're looking as an individual, we all need certain things to survive. So we need resources of survival which leverages.


Are you saying love is a reason? Yeah, well, I sort of see it as like if we're all plants, we all need, you know, the right environment, the right soil, the wrong war or the right sunshine to flourish. And love is one of them ingredients to that. We need for survival to be able to flourish properly.


Hmm. The sunlight.


Yeah, because we're social animals, aren't we? So I think I was reading that, like, if you're like if people are lonely then it can actually knock years off of your life because we do need to be with people in order to survive. Yes, so as an individual, in order to thrive, we need to we need like physical resources, so like shelter, food, we need love, we need stimulation, we need all these kind of resources.


And it's recognizing that's what motivates us to get into a relationship. So so that's the conversation here.


And he said, know, I don't know, I just haven't personally recognized as the.


Drive to be in a relationship. I can make sense. Yeah, so I've never recognized that before, so but if somebody is in a in a very big family that is very loving, everybody loves each other and somebody is living with their parents and they love the child. The child loves them. They don't need to be in a relationship if that if love is what they're searching only and if love is the only thing they're searching in the relationship or.


But this little. The different forms of love. What a healthy relationship, a healthy relationship is what seems to flourish forever, though, isn't it, because it's a different is there's another level of intimacy, Leeuwarden. Yeah, I like I like your metaphor of the plant, Sasha, so for me, like the fundamental force for all of life is the sun. Like we get the sunlight. The plant can't grow without the water and without the oxygen.


So carbon dioxide and. And so, yeah, yeah, humans are like that with love, and it's not like we get some love and that's enough.


It's. We always can. We're always going to want more, and Sandra says there's different types. So what love does for us is. It lets us feel. More connected illnesses feel part of something bigger. And in and so when I'm talking about a currency like people change what they do to get money because they need to do that to survive, people change who they are for love because they want to feel that love. So when you get. When you get love.


It changes like how how well we feel is about how safe we feel, how loved we feel and how purposeful, meaningful that we feel our life is. And so. Love is is like fundamental to all of that. Literally outside capitalism. Oh, sorry. That's really outside capitalism.


Yeah, but the problem the problem with money is that capitalism has said money is above all others. So what it said is like sell out your so do this. And all of our society is based on your state. You know, when you talk about status is about money.


Well, why? That's because we valued because for the good of society, it's about being rich, is about securing survival, but it's because people believe that.


I think it has because but that's the thing with love. Love has the ability to transcend that thing, which is one of the beauties of it. Yes. It doesn't matter who you are or where you come. If you find love, then like you say. The. It will. Saige. OK, so. OK, where's the dragon? All right, well, if if we were to go back, why so thousands of years ago? Right, society and those who shape society people decided that money was like the value that they purchased, and that is because money is for the common good.


Love and no resources are for the individual good. So society has always seen itself as secure and survival and the individual needs. Based on the individual needs are down to you. And so there hasn't been an infrastructure, there hasn't been a societal valuation of that, and so this is where the fairy tale comes from, is that the idea of love is it just happens? Yeah, it's being romanticized because nobody ever wanted to deal with it. So if you imagine, right, if you imagine thousands of years ago that people had valued love over money or our survival.


Would society be different? Well, I think like people weren't able to care about love, like even 100 years ago because they didn't have the money to care about our space. So it is a. What's the worst a. You know that I met. OK. Now, I can't remember the. I don't know, I think. Well, I think you need to separate basic human emotion, a need versus economic development, economic need for survival, which is earning money and spending money.


And there is a feeling of satisfaction you get for our pleasure that you get from acquiring money and spending it. But it's not equivalent to love. And I think what you get from I suppose Pete is talking about what the the value that you achieve or you place on a relationship that works because of the rewards that you get from being in such a group, in such a relationship. There is no monetary value that you can put on that.


But nonetheless, I would think that as long as we have had human relationships, even though in the past, you know, several centuries ago life was brutal, I think there was there was still a lot of good people, still loved people, still had relationships.


People still enjoyed life short and brutish. So it may have been and I think that has transcended it has come down through the ages as we as a civilization has developed. What we have is an artificial description of what love is. I think that has become the norm that we grew up with and believe. And then when we don't meet those expectations in our real lives, we feel disappointed because the fairytale doesn't exist. The resemblance doesn't exist. Yeah. Now it's coming in on his Chaja and sweeping you off your feet and.


Yeah, but then that doesn't tell you that tomorrow morning you're going to have to get up and make breakfast a. But after that, even though Hollywood movies are shy, you can still have that experience and that is the experience of love and you can't live in that state of euphoria all your life, other things come into play, especially if you start to have children and, you know, did whatever. All the other things that you get caught up in, you are interested in your career and so you're dividing your time.


So that state of euphoria where your adrenaline is pumping through your veins and it's just lost all the time and so forth, that can't last.


I'm way past children, so I have no children as I still believe in fairy tales basically. And I will not have anyone tell me I want a fairy tale. So. So, yeah, I'm not saying that you take money in exchange for love, but. You are right in what you say is about so what you put it, what you put and you go out there and you have to put with love, you are what you have to put more effort, I think, to get the best experience.


You're not meant to be you have you have to want to put in. Because you can't take out unless you keep in. So I actually love is what we love is what we give. And if you look here, do we have the most colorful is our children, our children, our parents.


But I'm sure I know that that's like unconditional love. Yes, yeah.


And it's because of what we give them, what we've invested. But I believe in unconditional love because of my religious beliefs anyway, so and that's why I think that's why I've come across the Bible as well, because I believe in unconditional love.


So, OK, so when you believe in unconditional love, that means that you're going to accept whatever the other person does. Yes. So you're going to love for the unlovable. Well, I made my choice and I've made my choice that I suppose I want to hear from Arab as well as. I think there are two levels. Here are two different aspects of it. So one is the mechanical side, if I can call it that, and that you make, as I called it, the deposit.


So through actions where there is respect, consideration, you are making continual deposits into the other person's emotional bank account with like maintaining the garden, like Sasha said. So that person then feels valued, cherished all the rest of it, whether you're bringing home some flowers or spontaneously, whether you're taking her out for a meal, because it just because it's Friday or you remember her birthday, you did something really great and extravagant or you bought the book that she was really looking for work.


We had little things and big things. And these are all what I would call mechanical that kind of creates that bond. There is also this other bit that I think it is trying to get to is that that person, for unexplained reason, just makes you happy because they they're there. Yeah, they're not doing anything. But you feel happy because they're there. Maybe the way they look at you, it may be the whether their body smells or whatever it is.


And I don't mean people, by the way. I mean, there is some magic there that you can explain. And I know I'm not trying to sound like some of the movies I watch, but am and I say this because I have a friend who I think she will be a lifelong friend. I think I mentioned before, we're just friends. Nothing, nothing more. There's no romance between us or anything. And she loves her husband. Even though he is the most undeserving man, he still is and she accepts that she loves him unconditionally.


And I was really intrigued by this and I said to her, what is it about him that you love? And she can't really explain. It's just that when he's there, she is happy. Yeah. Despite everything that he has done and not done when he there, she is happy. And I think that is the love that Pete is talking about. It's not so there are two aspects of this. The lucky people, I will say, will have that kind of love, but on both sides towards each other.


And then that added with the mechanical bits, well, you know, I mean, it's the mechanical bits that caused the problems bit.


Yeah, I know, but you can still have a very healthy, long lasting and fulfilling relationship, I believe, if you do all the other things right anyway. Yeah, because the you know, the other person that feels that you value them above other things and, you know, they feel cherished, they still have to still fancy. That's the thing that I remember as well. Of course, I'm I'm assuming that that side is over and done with because it takes, you know, literally seconds.


You know, you look at somebody you like and you don't like them. But to really have a fundamental or a stable relationship, you got to get to know the person is going to go beyond the physical aspect.


So you can't just say my ex loved me. I think basically I felt like it was it was proper, like, what's the word like. But lightning basically. Yeah, it was love at first sight. Yeah. And she stole my ex. So I think it's there and but like the mechanical got in the way and it was a long distance relationship and it caused problems. And you're right, there is bits and I I like that, I like the fact that Sladden the drag, there's a problem clearly I have to solve.


And she has to so and it's not all on me and I wouldn't want to compromise myself, but sometimes things like this takes over. That's the last, I think. Say. I'm sorry. Sorry. Question, how do you recognize when you have successfully slayed the dragon? That's a real place from. What it is, is a constant thing, but, you know, like Sasha used the metaphor of cleaning, so. In the beginning, it's about recognizing can you resolve differences?


Can you work to understand each other? Can you self disclose, can you understand, like see the different levels and. Connect, so it's never fully done because you are changing, you know, through through the relationship, you're going to change forever. Life experience is going to change. But the key I'm one of, you know, in terms of currency. It's about. If you have enough money, you feel safe, if you have enough connection, you feel loved, and so it's about recognizing if you don't feel loved.


Recognizing the connections gone, the connections gone, because there's some dragging between me, so the.


How like, how do you have a slight edge, can you work together? Can you operate together without and still and feel loved? So, you know, like Errol, when you talked about the two things I talk about, there had been to two models. So most people play relationships like a lottery. It's like they pick one that they're attracted to, and initially that's the last the excitement, they say this is my winning ticket, this is my one.


And maybe it will work out some people with us, maybe at one. And so the what I'm talking about in terms of slaying the dragon, the currents in all of these things are that the different game is understanding. It's like snakes and ladders. There's certain things that will take you up the board. There's certain things that are going to take you down. And snakes and ladders come out of an ancient Indian game, moksha, moksha, something.


And it's basically the things that take you up the ladder are virtue's the things that take you down the snake are like sins or voices. And so it's recognizing how to play the game. And so when you've gone through enough, so initially you meet someone, the first free six months is about lust, is about the excitement of being with them. It's about who you think they are because you don't know them enough yet. The long relationship is about understanding the different layers, I think.


Was it oral or Sandra talked about the different layers of the person. The longer you're in the relationship, the more the deeper the level.


But what happens if you've successfully worked through these problems? If you've managed to stay connected in spite of all these things, the level of trust, the bond, the respect is so much deeper because that is deeper. It takes a lot more to break a relationship. If you've never worked through that, if you're still working on the stuff that's above the iceberg. What it means is the level of trust, the respect is quite fragile. And so what happens is that the less, less needs to happen for you to feel disconnected.


When you feel disconnected, then there's still this friction and you argue about, you know, like the silly things that he's doing. Well, how are we doing? It is because of a lack of connection to slaying the dragon is having respect, having trust, feeling connected, feeling supported. And that means you get more of the currency of love. So you feel more full. Said the relationship is more rewarding. You want to stay in the relationship because you're getting everything that you need.


Does that make sense? In theory, yes, but I want to slay my dragon, even though I'm an axe. I say, yeah, I feel I have to slide my jacket. By saying, I mean, I think it comes back to communication again, doesn't it? Yeah, it's it's yeah, it's communication is the the bond of like how because, you know, you want to use the analogy of using different languages. And communication is the way that you understand.


OK, that word means something different for you. So like Peyton, I have a very different view because we have a different understanding of the word currency. And the. And when you refine and you understand what what you like, how do we learn the word? We learn a word because someone says it in a context and then you say. And so we go, oh, that means that and we know that we use the same. We are quite limited in FIFA, 100000 words or however many thousand words, but we quite limited in the way a word does doesn't describe an emotion.


It doesn't describe the feeling. And so we say I'm agitated, but yet we have different thresholds. And so agitated for someone means something completely different because we learn the words in different contexts. We had different upbringing. So love means something different to different people.


Love different to everyone. Yeah, exactly.


Because you learn in Atlanta in a certain context. And so it's understood going beyond words. And when you have a level of when you've done this enough times we've had that communication is what a commodity.


No, I never said a commodity. I said the currency. Yeah, but now a currency is a commodity. That's what it like.


It was a commodity is something that you can buy off the shelf. You may buy and sell and sell again. Yeah.


Love isn't a commodity. Love is a currency. Love is something that you get you do something to get. Not like that. That is a capitalist idea of currency.


But currency is something that we're going to invest time. We're going to invest. Why would you invest time and effort into a relationship unless you get something out of it?


I would say it's a reward system. You invest time and effort and whatever, and you are rewarded by the feeling of love and comfort with your partner. So, OK, if you have a difficulty with the word currency itself, it's a reward or something of that sort. But you put stuff in and you get something out.


It's that intangible thing, but it's the thing called love that makes you feel all cozy and comfortable and safe and stable and you get all dewy eyed over the person as you see the whole thing.


Wonderful thing. Yeah.


I think also there is the fact that you do things because I know was true for me anyway, but. Making her happy makes you happy or making your partner happy makes you happy, and you are then doing it without necessarily expecting anything. I mean, I'm saying without expecting anything in return, but actually, that's probably not true. You do expect the same sort of attention and care as well, but you are not keeping tabs.


So, no, but also what you are expecting in return is the look of pleasure and happiness that your partner that you see in your partner. That is reward for you, because that was your intention to elicit that response to your partner and that's your reward. You feel good.


If if you look at life as a game and every game is set by its limitations and its rules and we are all start the game like there's a goal, there's limitations. The challenges we are the game of life is we're hardwired with instincts, meeting certain currencies. We need to survive. We need to love. We need to feel some sense of meaning and significance, all of these things. And so it's not necessarily what we do. That's kind of the game of relationships, is that we try and make the other person feel as good as they can.


They make us. And if it doesn't balance out, the relationship doesn't work. But yeah, there is that hardwired that we need to love and we need to feel loved. And that's what without that we wouldn't get into relationships. But where we're struggling is that we have those instincts, but we don't have the knowledge, the methodology, the pathway to have that currently fulfilled, or if you don't want to use currency that need to feel fulfilled. And so it's it's something that's undeveloped in our society that we it's always been like, you know, it's true that we needed survival and so everyone was kind of focused on that and the like.


The divorce curve went up from the 30s, 40s, 50s onwards, because the relation, the need, like we had survival sorted out. So now it's about emotional, emotional fulfillment. And we're not getting that from our relationships in the most part. Now, of course, there are some people that have found a way, some people that it's come easy to. But typically most people aren't getting that.


But isn't it also. That many of us are emotionally immature when we embark on significant on our significant relationships in our young whenever in our 20s or whatever it is. And so if. Some of us evolve rapidly and then it's quite fine, we grow, we mature into the relationship, we are comfortable with ourselves, we understand what's important to us. And we and then there are others. We take so much longer time to get comfortable with yourself. What what you really want out of life, who you are.


And just give a quick example of a friend of mine who was married to a gentleman who we decided after a while she divorced him, that he hated it. He didn't like himself. He didn't like his own company. He he hated to be alone. He couldn't he had to be the life of the party. He had to be always drinking and carrying on and, you know, just. He could not he could not be alone because being alone meant that he would have to face whatever demons he had to face, which would create a nasty temper.


He, you know, had had some issues in his childhood, which obviously he had not dealt with. So I think that we are in. Our expectations of having a good relationship on an imperfect foundation in many respects, and so what we're doing in the relationship, we're having two separate issues to deal with. One is our own personal growth and development needed and dealing with our own inner demons while we are working on maintaining this this thing that we really want with this other person.


And every now and again, our demons burst through that facade that we have been trying to maintain of our controlled self. And then that disrupts the entire balance of what it is that we're trying to develop with the other person who may not be aware of these demons that you have had so close in your chest. And they are saying they think that they have met a new person. I don't know this person. That's not who I got into the relationship with, which is another drag then that you have just as the pope is elected.


I don't know if that makes sense, but yeah. Perfect tense. Yes. Like we have our personal journey, which you have to slay the dragon between everything that we want in office and people don't. People have different rates of evolution because they're scared to look, a lot of people won't look at anything like this and they're just the same. They just distract. They just ignore it, pretend hope it will go away. And that's that's what people are doing when the compromising is like you don't have to deal with it if you compromise.


And so if you settle for harmony, it's a way of avoiding having to slay the dragon.


And so it becomes magnified because not only have you got to slay your own dragon, but you also have to find someone who is you can slay the joint dragon with and then they have to slay their own dragons. And yeah, so so finding the relationship to work is about finding someone that you can do who is equally willing to do this, slay the dragon thing. And, and in a in an ideal relationship where you both slay the dragon, you support each other in slaying your own dragon.


So and it's about the level of comfort, it's about the level of openness, the level of transparency, the level of trust, respect, all of those things that you have that support each other on your own individual and joint journey of flying that dragon. And that's why that's the critical ingredient to a relationship that lasts, someone that you can work with in doing this, but most people never really think of that. Most people. You have this checklist of, you know, they look like they've got a good job, they're stable, they don't like my ex holding all of these things, they good with children.


They want children. And I think, oh, yeah, this is the one and that's the lottery ticket. And then it's just luck after that. Whereas if you understand, OK, if we do this, the relationship is going to fail. If we do this, the relationship is going to improve. Does that make sense? Does it answer your question? You said we like Germany with its full length relationships that I say. That's why as well.


That's why because we fall into relationships, because we decide that we. Because like we like, we generally fall into relationships because you fancy someone. So that's the way it goes. I like your idea that I do like your ideas. I have something I was. But that's what you have to overcome. You have to overcome something. In long term relationship, I like I like this idea, you've got to thank you, Rob, I'm telling you this man and I don't think I ever overcame this with Mavis's.


God damn, I tried basically for your skin, I asked and probably I'm not saying I wasn't deficient as well, but yeah, but we didn't like that, right. But personally, I still want to start by saying this, I swear, the way that I think is the challenge of life.


Yeah, the challenge of life is over.


I'm sorry. Sometimes you this fine. So how long have you been in a relationship? Me, yeah, well, I was I was married 13 years, but in my current relationship, four years. So but one of the problems is that most a lot of us have never really worked on dating skills, particularly for men, because particularly for men, it's it's harder to find someone. And unless you've worked out how to date successfully like so that you know, that it's not this personal nothing.


And it's not just like the first person I fancy that is attractive to me.


And I'm not someone that goes and checks people. That's not me. Say I'm all that I would be on my meds basically is necessary that.


But I'll tell you, like my life I got in I got married basically to the first pretty girl that was interested because I never really worked down the whole dating thing. But if you know and it's not necessary, that means that you have to sleep around, like whatever your standards are. But you have to know that you have the choice so that you select the person rather than feeling like, OK, this person's interested sometimes too much choice.


This is the thing. They're the first time I ever went on the subway. Yeah. And I just wanted some faith and said, why was there a place that was open. Yeah. And the guy was like, what you want, what campaigns do you want? And I was like this from the fact that you can't be indecisive.


Yeah, I don't care. And I fucking give a shit. Just give me a fucking sandwich sometimes like that.


We we need to take some responsibility for ourselves before we actually well, how we approach Dayton and really starting a relationship, because with each relationship that has failed in our, you know, our evolution or romantic evolution, hopefully we have learned some lessons about ourselves that we can take forward into assessing the next, you know, whether it be things that we cannot tolerate, we will not tolerate what the lessons you want.


No, no, no. I'm not talking about the last two days.


I lost the last part.


Yeah, but yeah, yeah, we like what we see and we want to hold hands and we want to and no pictures of we have got the knife.


Fine. But what I'm saying is that we are building up a vocabulary and we're building up a catalog of of of things that we have come across in each relationship that we should. It's part and parcel of all. I don't want to use the word it's not ammunition, but it's part and parcel of. I suppose our dictionary or resource materials that we can fall back on to make an assessment in the next relationship that we get into, but many of us, even though we have had these experiences, I think the euphoria of starting something new, we forget what we have learned and sometimes hindsight or we our friends may say, but in your last relationship or that one with that person, you that devastated you or you couldn't put up with that, or that was a serious matter for you and that's why you broke up.


So how come you're not tolerating that? So, you know, it's a it's a difficult one in the sense that we're all looking for a relationship. And so we want it to work and therefore we tend to. Things that mattered to us when we're breaking up, we tend to lessen their importance and you're starting a new relationship, that's I think that's what I want to say.


Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because yeah, because we're in different places and it's it's having the like the key thing is happiness, not the relationship. And if you fancy someone but they're not right. It's better that you have a fling get out of your system like as much as you want to, but not to take like the fun of dating. With someone and making a domestic relationship when it's never going to work and it's having to it's it's it's a skill.


I don't know if it's discernment, is it discipline of not being able to not get carried away with something that isn't true with the narrative. And that's what that's what I mean by building on truth.


There they are. And they take they are the. All right, why not? Because it's at this time is that it doesn't chime with me.


It's my birthday. I've never I've never done it. I'm forty fucking four, 45 in January, I'm old boy. Well, I was 40 when I worked out.


I was like 40 and I didn't work. I didn't understand how to die or anything.


And I'm a lot older than you, so please don't call yourself old.


You're much wiser than maybe I'm older, all of you, than ever. The oh, I'm older than you.


And I think we may I just I, I just I. This like we had the guy who was there for the day and I think it was like, I'll get you some money and I'm going out, but I just I'm like, I don't know if this is the judging. I don't want to be judged that my baby is my guy.


Sandra, you have to respect your opinion in terms of what you say you can and cannot do. And I think that is one of the things that we all need to be on.


I think I would have I have to let you know once is enough.


That's that.


So maybe I should just be on my own.


No, no, I don't think so. I don't I don't think that that's the the goal that you should have.


Well, yeah, that that's a common response. And the thing is that, you know, when I said we were hard wired for three games, what happens is this this drive, not because, like, I have the drive drive you have or you haven't.


I done nothing. Right then that's fine because.


It's it's life is simpler on your own unless you need a relationship, but most people, most of us need to share our lives with someone. I think I do need to share those with someone, but I just I just don't think I do struggle to go through that system.


That you describe where I can actually meet people that I like, usually I just don't like the idea of the system. And I would love to see everyone has their own path. Yes, several types of fathers definitely are my people, Pete. People have come up with different types of relationships that they find satisfactory because they meet the requirements, the requirements at a given point. I mean, I have said and I've made up my mind, I do not wish to get married again once is enough.


But that does not mean that I do not wish to have a relationship ever again. I do, but I do not want that.


I've been through the domesticated marital bliss thing and it's I know I value my private time, my personal space.


And there is a lot that I want to do that I don't know that a marriage would enable me to do freely, because you have to once you commit to a marriage, you need to make that leap with it.


Should the thing we didn't speak didn't speak about, we didn't speak about marriage of various purposes. Well, when you get married. A lot of people think that that's a lot. I think he put the time basically because you're married and like you put the time in. But obviously it can still be against the best. Basically. I don't know what it is a but I think we all agree that it is a gamble when you get to a marriage like that, it should matter more.


Basically, I think basically, yeah. So I'm not married yet, but as far as I'm concerned, if you're married to someone, it should mean something. Call me old fashioned, but if you know, if you're married to someone, they should fucking back you. Basically, they should be. You know, I'm sorry, I'll not move. But. Carol, I'm sorry. That's right, that's all I want. All I want to do is give you a hug and give you a lecture.


I'll consider myself hard, but the relationship is. I say we say luck and it is true. Because, like compensates for our inability to understand some of these issues that we've been discussing over the past few weeks and deal with them and where we have the immaturity of character, that growth problem in ourselves so we are not aware of are ourselves as a person. And what makes us think we don't understand what we actually want and what will be have a more chance of making us happy.


If we don't understand those things, then place a more of a part in the relationship. And the more likely plays part, the more likely it is that the relationship is not going to work out. And so in order to reduce the effect of luck, you kind of got to, first of all, understand yourself where your limitations are, what you give up, what you don't give up, because we talked about compromise earlier on. You got to kind of know where your boundaries are.


And so then you got to be able to judge the other person as well to be able to think, OK, well, how does this person think and how does that relate to me? And, you know, can I relate to this? So you got to kind of get over the physicalities and you're going to be kind of delving into the character, understanding them as a person and then thinking, can I is this good enough for me? And I am I I have a connection here, you know, can I pull I'm about to say put up with this person.


That sounds wrong. That's not what I mean, really.


It's true that I am. Yeah, but that their weaknesses. Does it bother me and you know, and I appreciate their strengths, and so once you can sell those things and you have the right communication and the weaknesses doesn't bother you. In fact, there are people it's funny enough, I was watching this in a movie one time and the guy was explaining how he finds the fact that she can't make up her mind. About all it takes are half an hour to order something because she's so precise about what she wants.


She finds that very cute and lovable to him is brilliant. You know, he can. Whereas for me, it would be mad if it took half an hour for someone to order something. But he found that quite lovable. And to me, that kind of certainly light bulb moment for me, it's that that's exactly the kind of thing that you see in somebody's. But it doesn't bother you that it's that it's nice and if you can actually get into the detail of the character in that way, then you are phasing out like more and more out of your relationship and making you say, OK, I can put up with this person or they can put up with me.


And of course, then there is the other bit that are they're able to do the same about you, because otherwise you may do that and you may say this is the right person for me. And then after a while, they go, hang on a minute. I didn't realize it was like this because they weren't able to do the same thing. Exactly.


Which is why I talk about luck, basically. Yeah, but not necessarily because.


But you know someone you don't know someone when you meet them, they basically.


Yes. Don't they. You have to try and then it's only like three months later or six months later. A year later.


And that you realize well actually I mean I've not really progressed with some of the other girls because I was much younger than I mean, but because they didn't talk because I was the only one. I mean, I talk a lot anyway, as we probably already guessed. But the fact that they did until they kind of already said to me that actually I know nothing about them. They're not and I'm not going to interrogate them. And you ask questions that and say anything they need.


I know anything about it.


Well, and if they are not the kind of person who can freely, confidently come across and talk, then, you know, and that's one of the things that I understood about myself in recent times, is that I actually value a confident woman. I'm OK. I married an incompetent person and I've helped her grow. And perhaps because I always value a confident partner. Yeah. So that they are not intimidated by I mean, I know some guys are perhaps intimidated, but I'm not intimidated by a confident person who can sort of say to me, hang on a minute, you are wrong there.


You need to sort yourself out. Obviously not in a rude way. And the condescending way, you know, in a way that you kind of you think, oh, am I going to get on with it? Just me. And you get on and you do it. And to me, that's valuable because that person is watching out for me. You know, they are seeing something that is not quite right and they're pointing it out. And I can see up there.


Right. Actually, I have to go and sort it out. And in a way, I'm grateful for that.


And also that's yeah, you're right. Now, you know, you're correct. Yeah. Yeah.


Because if you're going to be in a relationship, then it needs to be as equal as possible. Not a case of and I know in the old old ways, we used to say, oh, yes, you know, the guy's the breadwinner, he's the dominant one. The female is the subservient. And, you know, the guy says it and she just does it and all the rest of it, all that world is gone and will actually work either because all that happened was that the women had to put up with whatever they were given effectively.


And that doesn't make both parties very happy. If you want to fulfill deep level relationship, then you've got to be equals. And for you to be equals, you must be mature enough to be able to accept that you've done something wrong, that you have a failing, that you need to work on, that you need to work on it. She may or may not be able to support you, but you need to work on it. But then she needs to also accept the same about herself.


And if you can have that as respectfully as possible and do your best to try and support the other one, then I think you've got the beginnings of a great relationship. But that's what I meant. When you talk to her and she doesn't talk back, she doesn't share ideals or whatever she is may be shy. Well, you'll never get to know that person. And so from my mind, that's probably not the kind of person that I am after because I don't know anything about her and she is too shy.


And that means that if I said something, she might very well cower away and all that. And that isn't going to help me. That's not what I want, you know. And I know no, I'm with my ex wife, you know, she said, oh, I cook and clean and everything. And I said to her, I didn't intend to marry a cleaner. If I wanted a cleaner, I can hire a cleaner, you know?


OK, I'm grateful that you cleaned the house. But really, that's not the whole point. The whole point is the relationship, not the cleaning of the house. I mean, OK, I go out to work. Is that because you want the rich sugar daddy? I mean, I'm not rich anyway, but, you know, because you wanted money, is that it? You kind of looked at my bank balance and thought, yeah, OK, he'll do he's got enough cash.


I mean, that is not why you get married to somebody, hopefully. So I think you've got to kind of be able to talk to that person and the. The other person is going to talk to you, and if they do that, then, you know. But they have the right person or not, just what I'm saying, so so you have all but people come in different and sometimes very interesting packages because like my husband, when it comes to business, he is confident.


He is a good businessman. He was president of his professional association and he led them for three, four years. And he was this and what have you. And he can speak, you know, the lingo and he does walk the walk, but he is the most.


He's he's just not confident as a person. With me, ma'am, you are quite a guy that I was scared maybe, but I think I like honesty and say, OK, that I talk a lot, OK, and I will not be beaten.


But nonetheless, the point of the matter is that strong in one aspect, it is an admirable portrayal of the of the person. But those traits belong to come back home, if you know what I mean. So if we are having a conversation and I.


And I expect him to to respond not in a certain way, but just to respond and give an opinion. And I like a good argument. OK, I'll go with a good debate. So OK, if I call your point and we will figure I out we're not going to quarrel or anything is just a nice exploration of ideas. And he'll just buckle in NorTech. But with his friends, they will argue for hours and this is it.


That's what me as a female and not supposed to be as strong as his his friends and therefore he can't hold up that he compromises and without enough compromise, he's just he shuts off because he doesn't have the. Yeah.


It's like he's not comfortable with. OK, fine. Let me backtrack. I am more qualified than he is academically, OK, but he's still no no slouch, right. But I think he's very. It's a macho thing. Yeah, he feels that because you have a strong character and you're more qualified as a woman, do you think it kind of feels finds that intimidating them?


Yes. In a way. And then and then. I was not brought up to be shy about who I am and what I am and what I have achieved, so I kind of I it's that comes back to that compromise. I cannot compromise on that aspect of me because it's alien to me. And I don't know, love it, because then you will, so if you have to give in when you were a kid, I mean, you'll be compromising yourself then.


Why should you be a subservient person? And that's not your character, so long as you are not trying to, you know, be the dominant one and, you know, it's my way or the highway. And in that sense, you know, but, yeah, you have a strong belief and you would like to make your case vehemently without being rude or shutting the other person down, then. Yeah, well, I know. Oh, no, because I'm very supportive, because, OK, like in his professional activities, and so I, I write I used to write all his speeches.


He would call me in the morning. I have a speech to give at 9:00 and of course, and grumpy because you have you could have told me yesterday, I could have written it overnight and giving it to you because you're six hours behind me. No, you're telling me now and I must drop everything and write a speech. I give all of that and then I write the speech, OK? And he gets a good speech and he goes and he gives the speech and he thanks me.


Yeah, I rescued him again and that's fine. So I'm supportive. And when there are different things that need to be done, I said, OK, I'm going to do the dutiful wife thing, I will come and keep my mouth shut and help and support you, OK? And I'm fine with that, but that doesn't bother me. But when it comes to, as you say, you like a strong, confident, I want a strong, confident man outside of the work, outside of the work.


Know what I'm talking about. Yeah, so that's going to be on my list when I'm looking in that there is I mean, that's also why I get along well with this this lady friend, because she she is she she's a professional. She is highly qualified, more qualified than I am. I mean, not that that matters, but she speaks her mind and she has a strong character in that sense. She you know, if she thinks I'm wrong, she will tell me she doesn't agree with me.


I mean, but one thing I know for sure is that she's always got my best interests at heart. And as you will do in a relationship, if so long as you go the other person's best interests at heart and they know it even when you are delivering a negative message, so long as it's not crudely or rudely, then I think it's a positive thing. And I appreciate that she is not saying yes to everything. I say there will be times when she'll say to me, I don't think you are doing the right thing.


I think you are being unfair or unjust or something. And I appreciate that because it allows me to do so. I don't have to take her opinion, but allows me to stop and look at myself and go, am I am I right? Actually, am I am I going off, you know, am I wrong here? Is she is she got a point. And quite often she does have a point where she made it. Maybe sometimes she hasn't quite got everything right.


But there is a point there still.


And that's valuable because I have that relationship with there is no spark. They are just my friends there, just my very good being friends.


Yeah, but if you ever get everything together with everything ever.


But what I'm saying is that that's the mechanical side. But then if you add to that you the, the magic side of things and you know, is somebody that you love and cherish and that sort of thing, then obviously then you have a partner. Yeah, yeah, I think. I think the problem, you know, is a lot of people want to vote because they're scared to look at it and so many things in their child, and it's the whole thing of the idea of being in a relationship.


It means that you have to do this or these kind of lessons that they learned. And slaying the dragon is uncovering all of that. And so I think when we look at today and we look at what he said is the willingness to to look the willingness to to not just because when people come out of relationships, they go, oh, it was just, you know, my ex was an asshole. It was it was there. She was there anything but look at themselves.


And yes, it is it's never a one way. But the thing that we can control is we can get more layers of self-awareness. And so sometimes people can people can play a role in business. People can play a role in a certain confined space. But when you're in a relationship, when you like a lifelong long relationship, you get you're exposed.


That person sees you in all contexts. And it's the fear of being something that stops people from doing that. And so they don't want to like they'll crumble or they won't get involved or they it's because they're not willing to look at that fear of feeling unworthy of feeling, not good enough. And as Eric said, there's this whole patriarchy of where we've played this role of of man being the one who knows more and the one who's dominant and all this stuff.


And one of those men is it's men, women and shut up. And men feel that they have to be better than they are. And it's the willingness to look at that, the willingness to open up. And that's, you know, like I like what you said about love, Carol, but I I think all of life is a mystery until we know what it is. And now we're looking at genes. The genes do this. And and, you know, our intelligence is a matter of genes.


I think one day when there's enough study that we will uncover all the factors. But at the moment, there there is so much mystery. Like the attraction is largely a mystery. You know, these ideas that we were attracted to parents, this idea that we were attracted to opposites to similar people, but we don't really know enough that we are walking blindfold into this whole thing. And it's about. How much awareness, how willing we are to look ourselves, how open and transparent and vulnerable we're willing to be with someone, and then that's when we have that and we have that level of connection, the stuff, you know, you know, like you said about that, that person, the person's partner is indecisive and took forever.


We find that endearing when we have connection, when we don't have connection. That's the thing of I couldn't I couldn't bear that anymore. It's about the connection. It's about the trust, the respect, the connection, supportiveness. If we have that and we feel that like we have that relationship, that that person really cares, that we can really trust and we can really rely on them, it doesn't matter the idiosyncrasies of the person. But when we don't have that, those things, these are the things that annoy us.


But again, that's the surface level. It's all the stuff underneath. It's just a willingness to look at all of that and just want to really thank you for your willingness to be vulnerable, to look honestly at yourself. That's helped all of this discussion tonight. So thank you for sharing us, OK, sir. I suppose it's one way of evolving on my part. Yeah, yeah, so, yeah, it's it's a case of if I can't look at it and discuss it openly and acknowledge my own.


Part in the whole thing, positive and negative, then I kind of have on face the realities of the past, which means I can move forward with better strength, if you like, if I haven't learned from the past. Yes. I think it's so beautiful. So I say, oh, no, I'm not going, I it's just I was just saying it's about time you said something.


Oh, I want what?


How do I think we need a drum roll here?


How are the students doing anyway? It's all so broken up now. And I was just going to say, what do people think about the idea that you can be completely fulfilled by loving yourself, which will mean that you don't necessarily need anybody else, don't need to be in a relationship. But I wonder what people think about that. I don't think personally that's realistic.


For most people, it's very hard to truly. Love yourself in a way that is fulfilling. You know, brother. Sorry, you have we can't hear you. We have brothers and sisters, I speak, I have three older brothers, but I'm estranged from all of them. But I'm an only child. I can deal with life on my own, I guess, in a way that other people can't deal with it and then they can. Rhinovirus, I've dealt with it a lot better than others, but still quite like the idea of finding someone who.


To go through life with those. But they. It's always good to have someone that I mean, I've not come across anybody that. Is content on the on or not? I mean, people are capable of living on their own and like Peter, when I was an only child up until I was about eight. So I I mean, I'm I'm not a person that wants to stay evil now. I mean, OK, I just come out of a very long relationship.


I'm not ready for another relationship right now. I don't think only because I'm still I feel that maybe my emotions are still settling down. So I'm just really looking for friends for. I do not want to settle down with somebody that I can have a deeper connection with. I wouldn't want to be just on my own and I don't know anybody actually, at least not that I know a lot of people, but I don't know anybody who says, you know what?


And I'm I want to be on my own. I've. I've met people who are not on their own, but they live with friends. So in like two or three guys and they live together, you know, they share a house and everyone goes out and does their own thing and so on, but they're still together. They're not on their own. And he does say quite openly, he said, I think two or three failed relationships with women.


And it's kind of decided I don't want anything to do with women anymore as such. And he's quite happy just to be friends with someone just a minute there and not really get romantically involved. But even then, they are not looking to be on his own. I have I have I've known often I've heard about people who do claim to be happy entirely on their own. Actually, if you if you dig a little bit further, they do admit to feeling lonely.


Do you think you'd be happier and go. Would you rather have someone to go through life with you? The latter. Well, there you go. That's your answer. I think it's always nice to go through life with a fucking partner and grovelling. And there are plenty of partners in crime out there. You know, I'm a. I I think they're I think life is an individual path, and it's not about there's no rule and there are there are people who live perfectly happily on their own.


Yes. But most people who swear off relationships who it's usually a reaction to that.


Yeah. Wait, wait. Yeah. When you look at, you know, when I say we're hardwired to try. When you look at the sex drive is in us genetically or deeply embedded as a species so that we procreate and so reproduce because otherwise we'd have been wiped out as a species if we didn't have that. And Helen Fisher talks about she claims to have found I think she calls it relationship drive. So basically a need to be in relationship and like an intimate relationship, equally as strong as a sex drive.


So I think for most people, but everyone's individual and it's about there is no one rule is find your own pathway. And, you know, like going back to the analogy like this, I think the Snakes and Ladders is about there's a few universal things that generally that will make relationships easier than some that will make it harder. But you play the game. Everyone plays the game you're in. Why there's no rules. But you have to like pieces.


You have to know what you know, what do you need and just be honest about what you really need. You know, because a lot of people are just reacting to pain and, you know, they don't mean going their own way of all sworn off women and and all these kind of things.


Sorry, Tony.


You know, it's OK, but I think there are so many things have come up just in this evening's discussion that are what I would call a subtle, subtle, subtle things are some not so subtle, but they are they're not overtly acknowledged in many instances, but they actually influence how we react and how we behave and how we respond to hurt, to disappointments, et cetera. And it's, in some instances hardwired into us because of maybe things and or, you know, as we grew up in our childhood experiences, experiences with our parents, et cetera, et cetera, schools, depending on how you stayed at home and went to school or you were shipped off to boarding school at a young age, you know, there are people who say that they have detachment issues and those sorts of things.


But I think so there is the ideal situation. But then when you add those nuances or behaviors, then you are on a continuum with force somewhere on a continuum.


So we are not all exactly alike, even if we have had similar school in similar religious training, et cetera, in the same society, etc., it comes down to those other things. And I think for some people, some people may have had experiences that have been so hurtful that it is very difficult for them to bring them into their consciousness, for them to even deal with it, to acknowledge it, to understand what it is contributing to their actual behavior and how they approach relationships at this point.


And so some men may take the well, I want to call it a couple, but the decision to not engage after several disappointments, for example, not actually looking eyes to it, it could be both partners, both parties who are to be blamed for the breakdown. It's not the woman. It's not about women being bad. And so they don't trust women, but.


In that kind of scenario, many times their role is just never seem to be a part of the equation of the discussion of the decision making, that maybe I should look into myself, but I'm not having success with these relationships.


So I think we would need to be honest. About our own weaknesses and our own failings as part and parcel of that dragon slaying thing that you're talking about this evening and. It's not I hate to think that sometimes when we find things that are not so good about ourselves, we we get into a huff, we get into this disappointment and we do exactly what we're not supposed to do in that we should actually try to address the issue in a rational sense.


And that becomes a vicious cycle in itself, the sense of of of of of disappointment in ourselves and thinking that we're not good enough and that we are flawed and that we are not deserving of a better relationship and all of those things that come along with it.


I yeah, I think one of the most damaging things, like this whole capitalist society, you know, when you talk about your currency, your money has done as it is. The idea of status of having more is the idea of perfection, is the idea of selling to aspirations and what that's done and allied with, like control, the way that you control the society is shown. And once you start putting shame, people feel that they have to be perfect.


And the origin of like keeping up with the Joneses is feeling like if you're not like you're not good enough, if you don't have this and if you don't have this and it used to be, you know, when you go back to the Bible, it was like the Pharisees of who gave more was more religious, who was a better person. And so all of that that creates this whole layer of shame and all these layers of shame, then, I mean, people don't want to admit to being less than they are.


And so people are projecting who they think they want to be, who they think they should be, rather than revealing who they are. And so we have all this world was like the Facebook relationships, and I'm so happy and I'm so happy. And two months later, they're broken up and slagging each other off because they feel that they need to live up to something. And if we didn't have all this bullshit, we could just admit to being human, being having weaknesses and being individual.


And the whole culture has has been to make us commodities when the reality is that we were individual and when we embrace and it's not even necessary weaknesses, idiosyncrasies, because we're all different. You know, like if you have a circle of all the different dimensions of life, we all fit somewhere different. And it's accepting where we fit, where we belong and not going out without that one's a better place. I should pretend to be this. I should aspire to be this.


We are what we are. And when you strip it down and when you get the willingness to look at that and not necessarily accept who you are, except, you know, people hate dating because of rejection and because of what they get.


But it's just accepting, OK, this is this is this is what I am. I accept who I am. And other people are going to make judgments because they're operating on a different level of this is good. This is bad weather. That's just bullshit. It just doesn't work. If you look at it logically and you look at how that plays out. If that makes sense, you know, and also this building a facade is very difficult to keep it in when you get into the sanctuary of home and home life.


So you've created this public persona that you think is the desirable one.


And then you have to become you will have to move from that public space into the domestic space. And when you get there, they are supposed to be relaxed. And when you are relaxed, you're supposed to do all of those airs and graces that you have put on to create that public persona. It's very difficult to maintain that and be relaxed and be at home in that domestic that set in. So then that the other person can look at you and say, but that's not the person that I met.


Who are you? You're different from what I thought that I was dating or who I thought I was dating. Because you are a different person. I'm seeing things that just don't jive with that public persona that I made. And I presume I'm saying that maybe that those two month old Facebook relationships that you're talking about is the hard reality coming to face them, which says the picture is not real.


Well, often they know the relationship isn't that great. But what they're what they're doing is they're making oh, I'm so happy with this one, these two, because there is this whole sense of you need to be in a relationship. You need to you you need to show how loved you are in this relationship. And here's how I love this one. And you have something as private, like someone gives me flowers or someone say something like, oh, I love this one, because if I did this and what they're really doing is portraying to the world like, look how loved I am, I must be special because they don't.


And it's a feeling, not feeling good enough and feeling like you need to impress people. Whereas if it's genuine, like really happy couples, they do still do that because they know that they love they don't need to prove it to anyone.


That's why I don't do Facebook. It's time to think talking about people being.


Independent, I suppose, which is on its way to being a mature personality, and you have to be independent on three levels. One is financial independence, so it's better to pay your bills. One is intellectual independence. So you need to be able to solve your own problems. I don't mean to say that you need to know everything, but you can figure things out. Most people who come to places like this and you discuss and you learn and so so you have the ability to do that.


And the other one is emotional independence, where you actually don't need someone to pat you on the head and say, yeah, well done, you've done it and you feel. Are you. That's it. I'm great. You can actually do that for yourself. So fluctuating and at the same time you can recognize the faults in yourself and you don't kind of start beating yourself up over it. You understand that humans are flawed and that, you know, you are a work in progress and that you have the discipline to push yourself to do better next time if you feel that it's an important thing to resolve.


And I think if you can have those, then you can start edging towards more maturity of character and then you start thinking, OK, then you need to kind of establish a sense of professionalism and trustworthiness. And I think only then can you start thinking about being able to get into a relationship because you need to be you need to achieve those things. And B, start getting to a point where you can make and keep people over words. So on that point, when all of those things will come together, so I don't understand, how do you know?


I think what Immagine is saying is how do you know when you're at that point? That what you don't know where you're at that point. I imagine, like you're fucking seriously, little lady man, and basically two weeks is too much.


I mean, if we are talking about the three things that I've talked about, then first of all, you have to understand that maturity is not a binary event. You are not either mature or immature. It's like saying you're tall or short. You're neither you're tall compared to someone that's shorter than you and vice versa. Right. And so maturity is that as well, because I think sometimes making the point earlier on that you maturity level that you have when you're young is different to the maturity level.


When you get to my age, you know, one foot in the grave.


I a lot of fuck off, but, you know, over half a century. So, you know, whatever. But the point is that. Whatever maturity level you are at, just remember that you can be more mature going forward. The important thing is, are you comfortable in yourself and with who you are? That's the first thing. And then can you understand the other person? And are they and if their maturity level is more or less matched to use, then this potentially means that you are potentially, you know, might be a good match.


But then, of course, as you grow in life, your maturity levels may change because one of you grows much faster than the other person in maturity, and then that may then create problems and friction again.


And that I don't know how you figure that one out as to how quickly they will terms to the lifestyle, I suppose you don't need to be on your own forever, basically is the thing like out there and basically don't fucking sell yourself short. I think two weeks is bullshit, basically, you know, and. You have more often than not.


So I think earlier when we were talking about the problems that we were talking about with the prisoners just the last two weeks, I was saying was that the the problems in both of the relationships that I've had, if you can call them that, was that I wanted to see them a lot more than they wanted to see me.


So I wanted to see them more than once every fortnight, not because it didn't really feel you can't it's such a limited amount of time to spend with someone in order to get those three people out.


They want to see more than once the foreign policy can't find them.


Yeah, well, work out for them because they are there to be homework, basically they one.


So that doesn't ring right to me either, to be honest.


So I was thinking when I was at the area, I was laughing about it because it is actually so ridiculous and. So I actually thought that that was what our relationship was, but I could still categorize myself as being in a relationship despite only seeing someone once a fortnight.


But I don't think I can really categorize them as relationships. So I don't think I can say that I've actually had a relationship yet at the age of 31 is a relationship.


But did you meet their parents? Well, I think there's a couple of things that for me anyway, from my point of view. One is that if a couple like seeing each other once every fortnight, it's not my ideal relationship, I have to say. But who am I to you know, how I did it for them? It's obviously not great for you. And I don't think anybody will put up with once every fortnight either. I think most definitely will.


But at the same time, I cannot detect a bit of a thing of it. I don't know whether I'm right in saying this licking sticking my neck out, but almost like as if you somehow didn't achieve what you should do, what you because you've come to the age that you are and you don't have the proper relationship or length relationship. And I don't think you should look at it that way.


No, I don't think I necessarily do not need to go.


You got to necessarily feel that pressure. But I just I just I just try and work on trying to work out. What what has made it so that that's all I've managed to get and I've been looking at other people and what they have to offer that I don't. But it's not it's not an exact science. I know it's not honest.


It is bad, but it's not it's not a case of what have you got to offer? Because, you know, we talked about compromising and compromising yourself. So be careful in terms of saying, well, what am I missing? You're not necessarily missing anything unless you look inwardly and you think something is wrong with you that's different. Well, you know, it may be, for example, that you are not in touch with the right networks, that your circle of people around don't.


You are limited and it will never create. I mean, I've joined this group because obviously I'm trying to come back into life, as it were, you know, being married for twenty three years. You kind of you have a limited number of friends and so on. And my work is first full time. I mean, it's a full time. So I don't really have the opportunity to make friends in the line of work tonight because I'm somewhere else all the time.


I'm not meeting the same people, so I can't establish a relationship with people. And and so I think what you need to do is come back to what I was saying before. Intellectually, you need to start asking that question and, you know, start analyzing your environment. And are you actually exposing yourself to environments where you can meet people or are you just going to work, coming back home, doing your shopping and so on, and just a few friends and not expanding that.


That then limits your ability to meet lots of different guys that you know, you know, the partners that you may feel comfortable with. But again, I think initially. But I will say and you know, I mean, obviously, they can shut me down because, you know, no place to give advice to anybody, but I am just as personally initially just looking to make friends as many friends as I can make, but true friends, not just people I know, but people whose opinion and I value who hopefully will do the same on the way back that I can meet up with.


And a coffee, go to the cinema dinner, you know, go to the park, have a laugh on the phone, a couple of hours chat doesn't matter, but that's it. You know, it is a good friend, a shoulder to cry on viceversa. They're not thinking straight away. Oh, I'm a guy, she's a girl that said, you know, does this mean we're going to get together and have babies? No. OK, fine.


So ignore the person more to someone else. It's not like that. It's just looking to connect with people. And I think as you do that and as you push yourself to other avenues and places like I've gone to dancing, for example, I started going to dancing because I was always afraid of dancing and wanted to be able to dance. And so I've gone to dancing and with no expectation other than. I want to learn dancing with the people there have a job, whatever.


And out of this, I met this lady that I think she will be a lifelong friend because, you know, we just clicked and, you know, in that sense. But we will just be friends. Nothing more than that. But that's OK. It doesn't bother me. And if I value that and I'm grateful for that, I think it just came out of nowhere.


I tried I used to do a lot of dancing and I did have a secondary purpose to potentially meet someone of the opposite sex. But that never happened. And I did go for quite a while, OK, a good six months regularly. And I even did all the things that Google tells you to do to do it. All right. But, you know, you probably did it, too, right? You know, I mean, it's like it's a bit suspicious.


I don't know.


Just just to add to what Eral said, if I if I just share the screen, I wanted to show you this. So basically.


This is kind of what Errol was saying, but I would just put it in a different. Different sense, but. When you asked about how when do you know you're ready, it's not necessary that you're ready, but it's about this is what it takes. So what you said was your kind of relationships were in a convenient face. Oops. I just lost control of the OK, so, yeah, we're kind of in a convenient phase because it was low commitment and really.


It's about it's about your your level of commitment if you're, like, committed. So I am going along this path. That's the spectrum that Arrow was talking about. And then it's about knowledge and so just to go go back.


So then is kind of the iceberg. So on the surface that you're doing everything but what I mean means is. There's something below. The iceberg that somewhere something. Is the dragon that you need to slay? And then dieting is just really about where you are.


And let me just get. Yeah, it's just it's just really awareness meeting the right people, the messaging. What message are you sending out and all of those factors really? Well, it seems to me that. There I it seems like I might need to actually completely remove my desire for a relationship in order to find one. Or maybe it's a matter of perception in that you may be giving off vibes as they see of desperation, wanting to be in a relationship, and so anybody looking at you would think, oh, she wants to she wants a serious relationship.


Let me go play clingy clip. Yeah, but not not necessarily.


But but I want to move too fast. Want to commit once. It's like, you know, talking to a girl for the first time and he says all she wants to get married. And so I'm gone because they haven't reached that point that they just met you. But what the vibes that you're giving off is that you want to build the nest immediately to be careful of just a very passionate person and they're just slightly involved with something.


I can go, you know, I could be really. You know, I really intense with it, I guess. And harassing phone people pick up on good intentions and motives, though I'm on Amazon's side honestly taking that as someone who is dying very hard by the.


I agree to the divorce and so on, but it's about time, so just put yourself in places where people want to meet you and you will meet someone.


I think I if I did before Errol speaks, I just want to say the key thing that Errol said was about connect with people, don't look for the outcome, just connect with their friends, whatever their whatever.


Yeah, no, I don't I don't think I connect with anyone, though. I really do not. I really think I need to I'm going to find a partner today. I'm thinking, oh, I want to find someone to have a coffee with.


Where are you are you going to say to guys here who don't mind having coffee with you any time?


Well, you want to help me out? I'm gay. I mean, at the end of the day. You you need to enlarge your circle of friends. All I'm saying is that be careful. Of your own motives, because if there was a guy and he came along and let's say even though he didn't say, say, in your dance club and he was chatting you up with the pure intention of just, you know, good. And all he had in his mind was conquest, let's say, you know, a very bad thing.


That's what I was interested in, nothing else. I'm sure you will pick up on that. Because it will be fairly shallow. He wouldn't be interested in anything about you. He will be pushing it and all the rest of it. All I'm saying is that be careful of your own motives. So when you see somebody, don't think we're going to get together. And that said, you know, is it the right partner for me or whatever, you are just looking to have friends to chat with.


And, you know, if it's those friends, that's perfectly fine. If it goes anywhere else, that's a bonus. But if it doesn't, you know what your aim is to have friends in life and true friends, not just somebody you know, they love you. And that's OK. You know, that's nice, too.


But ideally, hopefully to connect with people so that you can have a true friend and nothing is wrong with a little harmless flirting, but definitely about how it is.


Well, it depends on the person, but your friends, your friends flirting may very well take it to a different dimension, but it can be just a flat for flat sake, believe me.


And it's a lot of fun.


Yeah. You're going to touch the person for that long, of course. But I think it's free. But but but what it does, it gives you some confidence and it gives you the ability to make small talk and it and you learn to read signals. So it's it's a good exercise. Don't I mean, let's not discount it. It is good. Phaeton, you agree.


Yeah. Yeah, definitely. I need to wrap up but I just I would, I would say two things. Firstly, if you knew that you were going to have a relationship and it was just a matter of time. I think there'd be less anxiety, and I think part of it is, is the lack of belief in that, and that would take away the the pressure. And the other thing is that. The other thing was, and it's every problem is in our blind spot, and it's having, like we talked about, the ability to to look and often we can't do that in relationships.


Often we need this is because we're in the ever, Babulal, with ourselves. We can't see what we can't or we don't know what we don't know. And in somewhere, it's just in all honesty and getting really clear, really honest. And whenever you feel a fear or anxiety, it is.


A sign of something like that isn't true. And it's just going beyond that because naturally it is possible and if it isn't happening, then there's something somewhere that you're doing that's stopping it and it's just working out what these. Sounds like it's just my desperation for it that if you don't know, you're not alone in this.


The biggest reason is people go when they go. I'm not wasting time. I need to. I need to. I'm not wasting time with people who aren't going to fit my bill. And they go looking with this checklist. And that is where people become commodities. People become commodities because they're looking for someone to fit that checklist. Well, Ariel Eruzione is just connect with humanity and everyone. And eventually you're going to find the person and you just need to be enough.


People need to be open and then just take feedback of, you know, whatever it is. But it's still something we're going to solve here in five, ten minutes. We're all on a journey, all of us. And it doesn't matter, you know, people who have the perfect relationship, they might not have the career. They might not have the sense of meaning, they might not have the health. All of it is something for us to uncover.


And the biggest problem is we have societies taught us this sense of shame because we don't have everything work that no one does. We're all on a journey. And, you know, if we were complete, what would be the point?


Overcoming our blind spots and you will get there.


It's just like like you're in a dip in the moment and you just don't see how you're going to get out, but you're going to hit maybe a bit lower before then you work out what it is and then you saw and everything can change so quickly. Well. Rob. You will get there and, you know, we're all kind of on the other side, so we see it, but in the same way, like I don't see things solid in savings and loans and savings Pieterson savings in our own life because we all think we're different, but we're all the same.


When you get to the core essence of a. But thank you for thank you for being open, thank you, Carol, for for sharing so much and giving us so much to work with tonight. And thank you, Sandra, for your always being bad.


And I really, really sharp and succinct things. And thank you for being.


Part of it. OK, thank you, everyone, and I'll see you next week. Whatever we do next week was a tough one up, yet I did have some ideas, but if anyone has anything specific, they want to. Discuss. I've got to say this, those of us who crafted. As that. If you like, I think, and I think maybe it may be I'm just being a little bit tongue in cheek, but where do we find good friends?


OK, yeah, because a lot of people have joined the group and his friends and reminding us they were typically friends, French romantic, but yeah, let's do a Frenchman, which a reason why I joined.


Looks like Watson is on the same path.


So, yeah, like, OK.


Yeah, likewise. So maybe we should all get together one day when all this covid thing is over. That would be great.


OK, thank you everyone. Can we wait for you today.


Thank you. Bye bye.