Artwork for podcast Everyday Disciples
Disagreeing as Christians and Using Social Media Well
Episode 212th October 2021 • Everyday Disciples • St Matthew, Grand Rapids
00:00:00 00:44:01

Share Episode

Shownotes

In this episode, we sit down with Lori Wieneke, Spiritual Formation Director at St Matthew, and talk about how to handle disagreements as Christians. We're in a world that's more polarized than ever and sometimes we Christians don't always handle those disagreements in a Christ-like way. Lori also recommended a resource that helped her: Love Your Enemies by Arthur C. Brooks.

In the second segment, we talk with Aiden Hunt and CJ Geluso about how faith and culture come together on Social Media as we seek to be followers of Jesus on those platforms.

And lastly, we have a quick tool to share for your Bible reading: The 7 Arrows of Bible Reading.

We'd love to hear from you! If you have a topic you'd like us to discuss, let us know at media@stmatthewgr.com.

Transcripts

Matthew Starner:

Welcome back to the second episode of everyday

Matthew Starner:

disciples, where we explore what it means to be a follower of

Matthew Starner:

Jesus wherever we are every day. I'm Matthew Starner, one of the

Matthew Starner:

pastors at St. Matthew in Grand Rapids, Michigan. And I'm so

Matthew Starner:

glad that you're with us today. Our first episode last week got

Matthew Starner:

some good responses. And we're learning a little bit more each

Matthew Starner:

week about how to keep fine tuning this so that we can make

Matthew Starner:

it the best it can be to help you and all of our listeners

Matthew Starner:

grow as everyday disciples. On today's episode, we sit down

Matthew Starner:

with Lori Wieneke, our spiritual formation director, and get some

Matthew Starner:

guidance on what to do when we disagree with other Christians.

Matthew Starner:

Something I'm sure we encounter more and more of these days,

Matthew Starner:

both in person and online. And speaking of online, our second

Matthew Starner:

segment, we talked with Aiden Hunt, and CJ Geluso, from our

Matthew Starner:

student ministries, about how culture and faith come together

Matthew Starner:

on social media. And finally, we have a resource to recommend

Matthew Starner:

that will help you as you read the Bible, whether it's by

Matthew Starner:

yourself or with your family, or your group. We've got some great

Matthew Starner:

stuff ahead. Let's dive in.

Matthew Starner:

Well, welcome once again to everyday disciples, I'm Pastor

Matthew Starner:

Matthew, and you might have noticed that we're in a time of

Matthew Starner:

a lot of division in our world, and very polarization of topics

Matthew Starner:

right now. Whether that's political stuff, ideologies of

Matthew Starner:

all sorts of different kinds, you might find yourself up

Matthew Starner:

against people that you used to be used to consider great

Matthew Starner:

friends that now you realize there's these deep divisions on

Matthew Starner:

things. And so today, I invited Lori Wieneke, our spiritual

Matthew Starner:

formation director to sit down with us. Lori, I know that

Matthew Starner:

you've got a number of close friendships, inside and outside

Matthew Starner:

of the Church of with folks who fall on all sorts of different

Matthew Starner:

places on all sorts of different spectrums, political, social,

Matthew Starner:

cultural, whatever. And I wanted to kind of pick your brain a

Matthew Starner:

little bit on how you handle being close friends with people

Matthew Starner:

who, who disagree with you on on so many different things.

Lori Wieneke:

Thanks, Pastor Matt, super happy to be here.

Lori Wieneke:

And I am thankful to have a variety of friends with many

Lori Wieneke:

different political beliefs, Christian beliefs. And I would

Lori Wieneke:

like to talk about that a little bit today, when you asked me to

Lori Wieneke:

talk about this, I kind of thought, Oh, I don't really want

Lori Wieneke:

to say I'm an expert on this, because I have failed in many

Lori Wieneke:

ways. And I can be happy to share that today too. But I kind

Lori Wieneke:

of thought back to my childhood. And I think my my dad and my

Lori Wieneke:

grandpa, although I don't think they realized it at the time,

Lori Wieneke:

gave a really good example of how to disagree. Even What's the

Lori Wieneke:

good word

Lori Wieneke:

loudly at times, and still love each other. So growing up, my

Lori Wieneke:

dad was one completely side. And my grandpa, my mom's completely

Lori Wieneke:

different politically. And I remember my mom even saying

Lori Wieneke:

sometimes, which I know people say today, which I actually

Lori Wieneke:

disagree with, like, let's not talk politics, because I think

Lori Wieneke:

it's important to talk about it with people that you love and

Lori Wieneke:

people you have relationships with. But my dad and my grandpa,

Lori Wieneke:

there were some Christmases, Thanksgiving, even Sunday

Lori Wieneke:

dinners where things would get pretty heated. And I remember

Lori Wieneke:

that as a child, like, what is happening, my dad's more of a

Lori Wieneke:

competitive, wild person, but my grandpa was my grandpa, who I

Lori Wieneke:

just loved and easy going. And so when his voice started to

Lori Wieneke:

raise, or they started to really get in some pretty deep

Lori Wieneke:

discussions, I remember as kids kind of asking, you know, what's

Lori Wieneke:

going on, you knew something was up, you knew something was up.

Lori Wieneke:

But where I feel like we are different now. And you mentioned

Lori Wieneke:

the polarization. Those two men never talked to us kids never

Lori Wieneke:

taught to badly about each other to anyone else. They discussed

Lori Wieneke:

it, they discuss things, weren't afraid to, I guess really

Lori Wieneke:

express their point. But at the end of the day, they never

Lori Wieneke:

equated or judge or related that to their Christianity, which I

Lori Wieneke:

think is happening today.

Matthew Starner:

And that feels so foreign to hear it to hear

Matthew Starner:

that like that they could they could disagree that loudly that

Matthew Starner:

passionately about whatever the topic was, and yet still

Matthew Starner:

respect.

Lori Wieneke:

Yes, don't hug each other goodbye. We still

Lori Wieneke:

worship together as a family. My parents, my mom's parents lived

Lori Wieneke:

in town with us. My dad would sit next to my grandpa on Sunday

Lori Wieneke:

morning worship. And they were both faithful Christian men who

Lori Wieneke:

loved others love Jesus served. And I feel like that's

Lori Wieneke:

different. Now I feel like Christians have become you can't

Lori Wieneke:

possibly vote for Biden and be a Christian because you want to

Lori Wieneke:

kill babies and you can't possibly vote for Trump and be a

Lori Wieneke:

Christian, because you are racist and you don't love

Lori Wieneke:

immigrants and that might seem extreme, but that is kind of I

Lori Wieneke:

do feel like I'm happy. I'm hearing that more and more. That

Lori Wieneke:

side doesn't love their neighbor like Jesus does. We're in the 19

Lori Wieneke:

Add when these discussions were happening, at least in my

Lori Wieneke:

family, I saw what it meant to disagree and kind of agree to

Lori Wieneke:

disagree some time and still love each other, and still have

Lori Wieneke:

a relationship and still be part of a family together. And I

Lori Wieneke:

think those were my first like, looking back, I kind of they

Lori Wieneke:

just modeled that.

Matthew Starner:

What do you think changed there? Do you

Matthew Starner:

think it was? Were the topics that they were disagreeing about

Matthew Starner:

as polarizing back then in the 80s? Or is it? Is it that are

Matthew Starner:

the things that we're arguing about? Are they more extreme

Matthew Starner:

today? Or is it like we've, we've incorporated these

Matthew Starner:

opinions into our faith in a way that maybe they maybe we've

Matthew Starner:

tried to make them more of a central thing than they should

Matthew Starner:

be?

Lori Wieneke:

Yeah, I would, I would agree with that, I would

Lori Wieneke:

actually agree with most of them. I'm not a political

Lori Wieneke:

expert, by any means historian or anything like that. But when

Lori Wieneke:

you look back, one of the books I absolutely love, which I

Lori Wieneke:

highly recommend anyone listening, it's love your

Lori Wieneke:

enemies by Arthur C. Brooks. And he talks a lot about I mean, we

Lori Wieneke:

could talk about social media and the news, but and I feel

Lori Wieneke:

like it's even that way today. But they're making both

Lori Wieneke:

political parties seem so extreme and so different. When

Lori Wieneke:

really I feel like instead of us focusing on all the things we

Lori Wieneke:

disagree on, what are the things that we can talk about? What are

Lori Wieneke:

the things that unify us, that we what are the things we agree

Lori Wieneke:

on, I have two good friends who would say the other side is

Lori Wieneke:

completely wrong, completely hurtful, doesn't love everybody.

Lori Wieneke:

And they both serve at the same ministry downtown, which just

Lori Wieneke:

kind of makes me you both, like, serve and give, dedicate your

Lori Wieneke:

time, love others and love Jesus. And yet, you would view

Lori Wieneke:

the other side so harshly. And that's that point, when I'm

Lori Wieneke:

like, we need to start talking about this more. And what's

Lori Wieneke:

happening, in my opinion, is a lot of people are blacking only

Lori Wieneke:

listening to people with their own viewpoint. And that is never

Lori Wieneke:

going to work well, not just political discussions. And I'm

Lori Wieneke:

sure you've done with I've been with pastors or served in

Lori Wieneke:

leadership positions to where if the leader only surrounds

Lori Wieneke:

himself with people that think exactly like them, you are going

Lori Wieneke:

to have a lot of problems because you are not going to

Lori Wieneke:

grow. And that I think, is what's happening with

Lori Wieneke:

Christians, non Christians. Were siloing ourselves, right?

Matthew Starner:

Yeah, you start to start to build that echo

Matthew Starner:

chamber around you, where you only hear the same thing. And,

Matthew Starner:

and, you know, that that's, that's rarely ever a good thing,

Matthew Starner:

right? Because Because we we grow and we're challenged a

Matthew Starner:

little bit, and even when we when we encounter something that

Matthew Starner:

we maybe disagree with, as Christians, I think, as we, as

Matthew Starner:

we think through that in a Christ like way, as we, you

Matthew Starner:

know, maybe pray over this this, you know, differing opinion sort

Matthew Starner:

of thing. You know, God speaks to our heart, he speaks to us

Matthew Starner:

through His Word. And I think that's a way that we can grow.

Matthew Starner:

But we have to open ourselves up to consider those things.

Lori Wieneke:

Which I don't think we're doing very well. And

Lori Wieneke:

I think we're mistaking unity to mean agreement on everything.

Lori Wieneke:

And I think that's kind of that you have to agree with

Lori Wieneke:

everything that I believe in, or everything I stand for. And

Lori Wieneke:

that's just not biblical, either. You think about I mean,

Lori Wieneke:

I love the Avengers. So you know, I mean, how boring would

Lori Wieneke:

the Avengers be if everyone was Captain American, and just a

Lori Wieneke:

little bit different version of Captain America and you talk

Lori Wieneke:

about the body of believers and how we're all different. And I

Lori Wieneke:

know for me, my good true friends are the ones that hold

Lori Wieneke:

me accountable, that are able to disagree with me that are able

Lori Wieneke:

to give me a different side or a different take on that. And I'm

Lori Wieneke:

thankful for that. I think you have to establish a relationship

Lori Wieneke:

with people to do that. And I've seen too many Christians members

Lori Wieneke:

that are church friends, just attacking people on social

Lori Wieneke:

media, people they don't know. That just doesn't work. Well. I

Lori Wieneke:

think in person conversations is a great way to start.

Matthew Starner:

Right? I think maybe a good rule of thumb there

Matthew Starner:

is the more what's the word I want to use? The more

Matthew Starner:

controversial the more hot button a topic, the more you

Matthew Starner:

need to have that conversation offline. Online. Because online

Matthew Starner:

just it just it's so hard to do it. Because you're missing

Matthew Starner:

something right? You're missing tone, you're missing like the

Matthew Starner:

the body language of the conversation. It's so easy to

Matthew Starner:

read into what somebody else has written even in a, you know, a

Matthew Starner:

fairly benign comment or something on Facebook, but read

Matthew Starner:

like sarcasm or snark or something into it and think that

Matthew Starner:

they're there meaning something that they don't

Lori Wieneke:

I do that all the time. Oh, totally. I do too.

Lori Wieneke:

Yeah. And that's why you have to ask. In fact, I follow Toby.

Lori Wieneke:

Mack on social media and that actually happened just a couple

Lori Wieneke:

days ago. People want to check out his account, but it was

Lori Wieneke:

regarding vaccinations at some of his events. And he posted the

Lori Wieneke:

next day. The account that started the whole fight was a

Lori Wieneke:

fake account. That was a fake account Me and 4500 Christians

Lori Wieneke:

fought and bickered and argued with each other. And it was just

Lori Wieneke:

again, that reminder of what good really comes out of online

Lori Wieneke:

fighting and discussions. Call someone up, text them private

Lori Wieneke:

message them, hey, help me learn, help me understand where

Lori Wieneke:

you're coming from, because your words you're making people

Lori Wieneke:

choose, I think it was in that book, Love your enemies. Think

Lori Wieneke:

he said, I can't remember if his dad was a professor and his mom

Lori Wieneke:

was an artist in Seattle, when somebody wrote all liberals are

Lori Wieneke:

evil, and I'm trying to remember what the other word was. All all

Lori Wieneke:

liberals are evil and stupid. And he said, hearing that that

Lori Wieneke:

became that's his parents, you're talking. So even though

Lori Wieneke:

he must had a different political view, now you're

Lori Wieneke:

calling his parents stupid and evil, and now we're forcing

Lori Wieneke:

people to choose people they love or their ideology? And that

Lori Wieneke:

just that's never a choice that people should have to make, in

Lori Wieneke:

my opinion? And how can you learn from people who who view

Lori Wieneke:

things differently from you?

Matthew Starner:

I think there's some really important things

Matthew Starner:

that you just said there about, when we have those those

Matthew Starner:

divisions to ask, like, teach me helped me understand. those are

Matthew Starner:

those are incredibly defusing words to share with somebody

Matthew Starner:

that they don't escalate the situation they help, they help

Matthew Starner:

bring some understanding and and really can foster that unity.

Matthew Starner:

Even though we don't agree on the same thing. We can still be

Matthew Starner:

brothers and sisters in Christ together. It's so important, I

Matthew Starner:

think for for the church to remember that, that that's what

Matthew Starner:

unites us is Jesus, and the other stuff, how we live out our

Matthew Starner:

faith in the world, it's gonna look different from person to

Matthew Starner:

person, we're going to have slightly different spins on

Matthew Starner:

things and, and understandings and applications of God's word

Matthew Starner:

for our life. And that's where having that conversation face to

Matthew Starner:

face, I think is just so important to help understand why

Matthew Starner:

someone has come to the conclusion they did, and, you

Matthew Starner:

know, maybe it'll help you understand why you're at the

Matthew Starner:

place that you're at. Exactly. I know, just like theologically,

Matthew Starner:

I've I've appreciated that. An issue a simple issue. That's not

Matthew Starner:

simple, but a common issue in the church of like, what do we

Matthew Starner:

believe about how the world came into being evolution or creation

Matthew Starner:

kind of stuff. And so sometimes listening to people who believe

Matthew Starner:

a different viewpoint than you, helps you understand where

Matthew Starner:

they're at. But it also helps me understand, okay, this, but this

Matthew Starner:

is why I believe what I believe I come away a little bit

Matthew Starner:

clearer, even though I've gotten a broader understanding of

Matthew Starner:

what's out there. And makes me kind of think about my position

Matthew Starner:

a little bit and understand that I don't have all the answers

Matthew Starner:

either.

Lori Wieneke:

And maybe you did that for them as well. And those

Lori Wieneke:

are the conversations and it's not something I'm really bad at

Lori Wieneke:

it right now. And I'm really trying to like, actually listen,

Lori Wieneke:

like kind of like, you're hungry for listening. I think I've

Lori Wieneke:

heard people say that before, where you're actually listening,

Lori Wieneke:

not automatically, just coming back with your point, because

Lori Wieneke:

you're right, and then letting the Holy Spirit like, stir on

Lori Wieneke:

you. I mean, that's literally happened to me. And it's not

Lori Wieneke:

that I'm changing my belief in God's word, changing, you know,

Lori Wieneke:

the core of who I am. But when you listen to other people, and

Lori Wieneke:

really listen to where they're at, I don't think everything is

Lori Wieneke:

so black and white. How we make things Christians or non

Lori Wieneke:

Christians, I mean, if probably a lot of people listening today

Lori Wieneke:

are Christians, but if you if your whole friend base is just

Lori Wieneke:

Christians, and just people that look like you, and just people

Lori Wieneke:

that vote like you and all that I try to get to know some other

Lori Wieneke:

people. And I think you actually have to go to places where

Lori Wieneke:

people do view things differently than you that that

Lori Wieneke:

are different than you and I think what's happening is we're

Lori Wieneke:

doing the opposite social dilemma on Netflix shows how

Lori Wieneke:

social media and all that kind of helps you do that two, people

Lori Wieneke:

are blacking you're defending people. And I'm not saying there

Lori Wieneke:

are some people who are toxic. I'm not saying to put yourself

Lori Wieneke:

in situations, if you're going to respond in an angry way

Lori Wieneke:

probably step away for a little bit. But if we just keep

Lori Wieneke:

blacking, and refusing to listen to anyone that's different than

Lori Wieneke:

us. I mean, that's not even how our country was founded. And

Lori Wieneke:

that's just not how things I just things just never go well.

Lori Wieneke:

Another podcast I love which we're probably not supposed to

Lori Wieneke:

advertise other podcasts, but Rise and Fall of Marcel's people

Lori Wieneke:

if you have not listened to that I've listened to it twice. But

Lori Wieneke:

listen to I think what I've gathered from that Leaders just

Lori Wieneke:

surrounded themselves with people who never challenged

Lori Wieneke:

them, who not just agreed with everything was afraid to

Lori Wieneke:

disagree was afraid, and it just doesn't work out. It just

Lori Wieneke:

doesn't work out. And that's, that's why I would challenge

Lori Wieneke:

people here today to

Matthew Starner:

absolutely yeah, that's never a healthy

Matthew Starner:

place to be where, where everybody around you agrees with

Matthew Starner:

you that just, that's usually a sign that something's wrong.

Matthew Starner:

Yeah,

Lori Wieneke:

out of fear out of you know, and I've had that with

Lori Wieneke:

some friendships to where I was, okay, I really think I need to

Lori Wieneke:

talk about this. But what's going to happen if seeing what's

Lori Wieneke:

happened in other ways. But in most cases, my approach is, hey,

Lori Wieneke:

I'd love to have lunch with you, I'd love to talk to you help me

Lori Wieneke:

to understand help me to learn, I really respect especially in

Lori Wieneke:

the Christian community, some of my friends who have been maybe

Lori Wieneke:

more bold on other issues that not might not be, what's the

Lori Wieneke:

word acceptable in the Christian circles, especially our kids go

Lori Wieneke:

to Christian Schools as well. And help me to understand it, I

Lori Wieneke:

love that you're not afraid to talk about that, and help me to

Lori Wieneke:

understand and in all cases, except one, I've always had

Lori Wieneke:

people willing to sit down and talk. And I think those are the

Lori Wieneke:

those are the real people, you know, what we see online that's

Lori Wieneke:

not your real, everyday people. And I think we have to remember

Lori Wieneke:

that too. And as Christians Remember, we're at fault. We're

Lori Wieneke:

not always right. And loving your neighbor, I think is a word

Lori Wieneke:

that's being tossed around without people really I don't

Lori Wieneke:

know they're using it kind of

Matthew Starner:

both ways. Sure. Want to use it use it

Matthew Starner:

almost as a weapon. And I don't know how could we use that that

Matthew Starner:

that command of god those words of Jesus to love your neighbor

Matthew Starner:

as a as a weapon against somebody that that just that

Matthew Starner:

feels wrong? So maybe if that's if you find yourself in that in

Matthew Starner:

that situation, maybe do a little bit of a heart check

Matthew Starner:

there and see, am I am I using this maybe in a way that doesn't

Matthew Starner:

actually reflect the spirit of what Jesus is telling us to do

Matthew Starner:

there? Because I think loving your neighbor is exactly what

Matthew Starner:

you're talking about doing is I'm not gonna sit down and and

Matthew Starner:

argue with you debate with you to prove my case, so that I can

Matthew Starner:

argue you across the line now to believe what I believe about

Matthew Starner:

whatever the situation is, but to sit down and value them as a

Matthew Starner:

person value their opinion, see and understand their viewpoints

Matthew Starner:

and, and help them feel heard. I do remember coming across this

Matthew Starner:

in a class a counseling class actually, but we talked about

Lori Wieneke:

in terms of debating with someone which I

Lori Wieneke:

don't think debating is all that helpful. But like, I don't

Lori Wieneke:

remember who it was some some philosopher, his his first step

Lori Wieneke:

to debating about someone is to be able to understand your

Lori Wieneke:

opponent's position clear enough that you can explain it back to

Lori Wieneke:

them in a in a satisfactory way. And it's like you you So to do

Lori Wieneke:

that, like you really have to understand all the aspects of

Lori Wieneke:

what the person who disagrees with you believes and thinks and

Lori Wieneke:

to do that to put in that time and that effort. That's huge.

Lori Wieneke:

And I think it shows that you value the other person Yeah.

Lori Wieneke:

Yeah, because we can agree to disagree and I think that's the

Lori Wieneke:

problem is right now there's this whole push that you can't

Lori Wieneke:

like, Oh, don't disagree. Don't ruffle feathers. Don't discuss

Lori Wieneke:

it. Don't did not just politically just with anything,

Lori Wieneke:

when that's just not healthy. That's just not really what

Lori Wieneke:

we're called to do. And I don't know I kind of challenge

Lori Wieneke:

everybody to start not being afraid I'm not that you want a

Lori Wieneke:

mean spirited arguments, not that you want hurtful comments,

Lori Wieneke:

but it's okay to disagree. And and what can come from that?

Lori Wieneke:

Well, as we wrap up our conversation here today, Lori,

Lori Wieneke:

any any closing thoughts or concluding thoughts for us on

Lori Wieneke:

this, this topic of division? For me concluding thoughts

Lori Wieneke:

number one, try to get to know people who don't think, who

Lori Wieneke:

don't act who don't go to your church who don't vote like you

Lori Wieneke:

really try to get to know them. And that might be coming out of

Lori Wieneke:

your comfort circle that might be really actually going to

Lori Wieneke:

places that just feel different than you would normally go talk

Lori Wieneke:

to people try to start forming those relationships or getting

Lori Wieneke:

to know people. For me a big one and a big change that I've been

Lori Wieneke:

trying to do is I heard Greg Frankie speak, Pastor for

Lori Wieneke:

dwelling, dwelling 114 I just love him and a lot of what he

Lori Wieneke:

says and it was a good reminder for me that I don't have to,

Lori Wieneke:

it's not my job to redeem, restore people save people. Our

Lori Wieneke:

job and our commands from Jesus was pretty simple to just love

Lori Wieneke:

God and love others. And I feel as Christians sometimes we're

Lori Wieneke:

trying to do things that are way above our pay grade. God was

Lori Wieneke:

smart enough to send Jesus to do the saving to do the forgiving.

Lori Wieneke:

So we just have to love God and love others. That doesn't mean

Lori Wieneke:

again. I know

Lori Wieneke:

But I think it's a reminder, no one is fixed yet. And if we

Lori Wieneke:

truly if Lutherans, if we truly believe it's all about grace,

Lori Wieneke:

that we are saved by grace, which is the whole reason I love

Lori Wieneke:

being a Lutheran, there's not a grace, but right. Grace, if

Lori Wieneke:

we're all saved by grace, and so I think that's just a good

Lori Wieneke:

reminder for me to Yeah, I thank you for sharing that, Lori. And

Lori Wieneke:

I think, you know, that that even makes you a really good

Lori Wieneke:

person to talk about this, because you're in that struggle,

Lori Wieneke:

just like all of us are, we all struggle with that. And if

Lori Wieneke:

anybody thinks that they don't struggle with loving their

Lori Wieneke:

neighbor, they maybe need to look a little bit closer pay a

Lori Wieneke:

little closer attention to their life, because because I think we

Lori Wieneke:

all at some at some level, we all struggle with our neighbors.

Lori Wieneke:

And we got to remember, love your neighbor, love God. Keep

Lori Wieneke:

Jesus keep the main thing, the main thing, and the other stuff

Lori Wieneke:

will work itself out. And if you're not struggling with

Lori Wieneke:

loving your neighbor, you're probably siloing yourself to

Lori Wieneke:

everyone that looks like you. That would be my if you're

Lori Wieneke:

getting along and totally agree with every single person around

Lori Wieneke:

you. Go meet a new friend. Great advice. So thanks for sitting

Lori Wieneke:

down with us. I really appreciate it and hope you've

Lori Wieneke:

enjoyed this conversation to have us listen in, as we talked

Lori Wieneke:

about Christians disagreeing with one another in a healthy

Lori Wieneke:

way.

Matthew Starner:

Welcome back. I'm Pastor Matthew Starner and

Matthew Starner:

for another segment here of culture and faith today talking

Matthew Starner:

about social media and I've got quite a crew gathered with me

Matthew Starner:

today to talk about social media. First off, my name is CJ

Matthew Starner:

juuso. I'm a volunteer here at St. Matthew, I help out with the

Matthew Starner:

production the sound side. And with the youth group. My name is

Matthew Starner:

Aiden Hunt and I work with the high school ministry here at St.

Matthew Starner:

Matthew. And today we wanted to talk a little bit about how our

Matthew Starner:

faith and culture intersect in the world of social media. So I

Matthew Starner:

gathered you guys together, because I think you this is a

Matthew Starner:

diverse group around here, we represent a couple different

Matthew Starner:

generations, we represent different patterns and stuff

Matthew Starner:

online. And so today we're going to just talk about how our faith

Matthew Starner:

in social media comes together. With social media, it is a

Matthew Starner:

it's a great tool, but one that can also specially as we've seen

Matthew Starner:

in the last what several years, starts to be a bit of a divisive

Matthew Starner:

thing, right? We can we can use it, or we can abuse it. And so

Matthew Starner:

maybe just let's let's kind of kick it off going around the

Matthew Starner:

circle here. What are some ways some good things that you've

Matthew Starner:

seen come out of social media use.

CJ Geluso:

Um, some of the good things I've seen come on to

CJ Geluso:

social media is like a broader outreach of the church, the

CJ Geluso:

church and kind of pastors and messages, God can use social

CJ Geluso:

media in good ways. But we also see the retrospect of that kind

CJ Geluso:

of the other side.

Aidan Hunt:

I love the the connectivity we have through

Aidan Hunt:

social media, like, for example, I live here in Grand Rapids,

Aidan Hunt:

Michigan, and yet, because of social media, and because of

Aidan Hunt:

technology, in general, I'm able to, you know, receive pictures

Aidan Hunt:

of my niece and nephew in California on a daily basis, and

Aidan Hunt:

I can listen to a soccer podcast hosted by two British guys who

Aidan Hunt:

live in Germany. And then I can also like Venmo, my friend who

Aidan Hunt:

lives in Virginia, and give him money and like a cup of coffee

Aidan Hunt:

on me today, like that's incredible how connected we can

Aidan Hunt:

be with people who are so far away. So that's, I think, a

Aidan Hunt:

huge, huge benefit of technology.

Matthew Starner:

The connectivity thing is huge. You

Matthew Starner:

know, I've been able to connect with people who, even family

Matthew Starner:

members that I've never actually met, I found some family members

Matthew Starner:

who we did the, you know, messaging back and forth to

Matthew Starner:

figure out how we were related. And that was super cool to make

Matthew Starner:

those connections. And so yeah, it's it is a, it's a crazy tool

Matthew Starner:

that Who would have thought like, especially, you know, we

Matthew Starner:

think of the folks in the Bible times the tools that we have at

Matthew Starner:

our disposal right now to share the faith. So you know, CJ

Matthew Starner:

mentioned, the way churches use social media for like saints.

Matthew Starner:

Matthew uses it for putting our services out there and we have

Matthew Starner:

our Facebook page and

Aidan Hunt:

This podcast was hard. Get Started in order to

Aidan Hunt:

help Share tools and resources with with not just St. Matthew

Aidan Hunt:

but with the whole church body, right Body of Christ in general.

Matthew Starner:

And yeah, we have people who are connected to

Matthew Starner:

St. Matthew, who don't even live around us, people who live in

Matthew Starner:

other states, which is kind of amazing. I'm always humbled when

Matthew Starner:

I, when I see those folks commenting on Facebook and

Matthew Starner:

engaging and things, it's, it's amazing that people have have

Matthew Starner:

connected with us in that way. So it's a it is a great tool.

Matthew Starner:

But the other downside to that is it's full of people. And if

Matthew Starner:

we know anything about people, people are sinners, all of us,

Matthew Starner:

you know, around this table included. And when you get give

Matthew Starner:

people a platform, and you give them an opportunity to share

Matthew Starner:

their their deepest, most intimate thoughts and feelings

Matthew Starner:

and opinions that in generations past would have maybe only been

Matthew Starner:

shared between like a spouse relationship or real close

Matthew Starner:

friendship when you can now put that out there for the public to

Matthew Starner:

just see and engage with that, it seems like it creates an

Matthew Starner:

opportunity for people to misuse that or turn it into a soapbox

Matthew Starner:

right? I think we've all we've all seen that in recent years.

CJ Geluso:

Yeah, and absolutely. Something I've also noticed is

CJ Geluso:

that social media can be used as like an extension of yourself.

CJ Geluso:

That's kind of how I see it. And so basically, how do I want the

CJ Geluso:

world to see me the people interact with me on an everyday

CJ Geluso:

basis know kind of who I am what's in my heart but on social

CJ Geluso:

media, I can pour my portray myself however I want. So I

CJ Geluso:

could almost kind of do like a false image of myself and act

CJ Geluso:

like I'm this amazing guy on social media. But in retrospect,

CJ Geluso:

you really don't get that that trueness. And I think that

CJ Geluso:

brings on shame in some people's hearts a bit.

Aidan Hunt:

One of the things I've noticed in I mean just my

Aidan Hunt:

time as a, as a Christian and someone who whose generation Gen

Aidan Hunt:

Z is so deeply impacted by social media there's a few

Aidan Hunt:

things we can we can talk about because the Bible doesn't say

Aidan Hunt:

anything directly about technology or social media. It's

Aidan Hunt:

one of the many, you know, topics that we can't turn to you

Aidan Hunt:

know, one of Paul's letters and be like this is how you should

Aidan Hunt:

use social media as a Christian because they did not have any

Aidan Hunt:

anything like this back then. But I think social media has a

Aidan Hunt:

lot to do with you know, things that the Bible does talk about

Aidan Hunt:

things like identity things like the words we use and the way

Aidan Hunt:

that we speak about others the way that we view ourselves and

Aidan Hunt:

the way we speak about about God and so I think when our

Aidan Hunt:

generation I mean me and CJ are part of the same generation and

Aidan Hunt:

Matthew and Adam you're I think part of the same one as well. I

Aidan Hunt:

think our generations use them slightly differently but in ways

Aidan Hunt:

that we're starting to see all of the impacts that they have

Aidan Hunt:

especially on on in terms of identity I think identity is the

Aidan Hunt:

big the big hitter when it comes to how social media is not only

Aidan Hunt:

impacting us, but really shaping us and forming us as well. And I

Aidan Hunt:

work with high schoolers and so social media is not only

Aidan Hunt:

something that I have to know how to use well but it's

Aidan Hunt:

something that I see the impact it has on on the people I work

Aidan Hunt:

with and you know the the kids that I get to interact with and

Aidan Hunt:

it's it's getting bleak it's getting scary how much first of

Aidan Hunt:

all time we spend on social media I say we because I am a

Aidan Hunt:

victim of it as well I mean we talked about our screen times

Aidan Hunt:

today during Sunday school and I was not the lowest one in the

Aidan Hunt:

room. Like she didn't wasn't either and it was like not close

Aidan Hunt:

either. It was one of the worst some there was 110 hour are not

Aidan Hunt:

gonna say who but 10 hours of your day spent on your phone.

Aidan Hunt:

But yeah, I think we see social media the way that we portray

Aidan Hunt:

ourselves the way that other people portray themselves and

Aidan Hunt:

comparison is just something that comes naturally with social

Aidan Hunt:

media especially in those formative ages teenage years

Aidan Hunt:

young adult years you know in your 20s and your 30s you're

Aidan Hunt:

constantly comparing yourself to people you know well like your

Aidan Hunt:

friends and your family but you're also comparing yourself

Aidan Hunt:

to people you you've never met before and you and you start to

Aidan Hunt:

envy their life and covet what they have and what you don't and

Aidan Hunt:

you know look at the way that they look versus the way that

Aidan Hunt:

you look and self esteem impact can can come out of that and I

Aidan Hunt:

think one of the things I've tried to kind of remind a lot of

Aidan Hunt:

people is that social media as it tries to form and shape our

Aidan Hunt:

identities our identity is still so rooted in Christ and rooted

Aidan Hunt:

in the fact that we are made in the image of God and and that is

Aidan Hunt:

who we are first foremost and always

Matthew Starner:

right yeah it's it's so easy to tie up all of

Matthew Starner:

your value all of your worth as an individual in how many likes

Matthew Starner:

you get how many people are sharing yours to how viral you

Matthew Starner:

get with a post that you have or whether or not your verified

Matthew Starner:

accounts. Your verify verified in the eyes of Jesus. I mean to

Matthew Starner:

sound a little bit trite, but you know, it's, that's not where

Matthew Starner:

our identity comes from it. We got to we got to remember who we

Matthew Starner:

are and who's We are and all of those social media platforms,

Matthew Starner:

the ones we have today, and the ones that we can't even think

Matthew Starner:

about that are coming in the future. They are, they're all

Matthew Starner:

tools. And so I think as Christians, maybe one of the

Matthew Starner:

things we want to think about is like, how do we how do we wisely

Matthew Starner:

use this tool? It's, I remember when, when Facebook was first

Matthew Starner:

taken off, and people were talking about like, what would

Matthew Starner:

Jesus use Facebook? I think that's a silly question to ask.

Matthew Starner:

You know, in part, it's a little bit like saying, would Jesus use

Matthew Starner:

a hammer? You know, it's a tool? Sure, Jesus would probably use

Matthew Starner:

Facebook, he'd use it better than any of us would, I think he

Matthew Starner:

would, he would use it well. And so we want to think like, how

Matthew Starner:

would Jesus use Facebook? What would he do differently than

Matthew Starner:

maybe the rest of us? And then Facebook or whatever platform

Matthew Starner:

we're on? How would Jesus use social media? You know, in a

Matthew Starner:

Christ lightweight, how do we use it that way?

CJ Geluso:

That brings on a whole series of questions. What

CJ Geluso:

I mean, what he posts, his miracles, and the videos of his

CJ Geluso:

miracles on Facebook, what he just posts scripture on

CJ Geluso:

Facebook, what he when he talked about his disciples post selfies

CJ Geluso:

with him and his disciples on Facebook, when

Aidan Hunt:

he posts his quiet time in the morning, yeah, hang

Aidan Hunt:

in with God. And it's like a picture of his open Bible and

Aidan Hunt:

like a cup of coffee and like the so

Matthew Starner:

would Jesus humblebrag? Is that what you're

Matthew Starner:

saying? I

Aidan Hunt:

have no idea.

Aidan Hunt:

Like, yeah, yeah. Like you said, I feel like he would definitely

Aidan Hunt:

use it much better than all of us. I don't think Jesus would be

Aidan Hunt:

as addicted to social media as we are. That's for sure. Right?

Aidan Hunt:

I think also, we can talk about the the, you know, chemical

Aidan Hunt:

reactions that happen with social media. So like when

Aidan Hunt:

social media users receive positive feedback, either likes

Aidan Hunt:

or retweets, or reactions, or comments or anything like that,

Aidan Hunt:

your brain fires off a dopamine receptor. Now we usually think

Aidan Hunt:

of dopamine is like the pleasure hormone, that's not technically

Aidan Hunt:

true, it's more like dopamine causes more wanting than it does

Aidan Hunt:

liking or like pleasure. So therefore, increased dopamine is

Aidan Hunt:

one of the factors in drug addiction, because, you know,

Aidan Hunt:

drugs such as cocaine, amphetamines, stimulants, they

Aidan Hunt:

increase dopamine levels in your brain. So the more of it that

Aidan Hunt:

you have, the more you need for that same feeling. And the same,

Aidan Hunt:

the same chemical that is fired off in your brain, when you use

Aidan Hunt:

cocaine and drugs is the same one that goes off when you

Aidan Hunt:

receive positive feedback on social media, it's jarring to

Aidan Hunt:

say the least. So we're being, like I said, formed and shaped

Aidan Hunt:

by the feedback we receive from social media and how it makes us

Aidan Hunt:

feel. And so the more we use it, the more we need it, as well.

Aidan Hunt:

And so when we think of the addictive qualities of social

Aidan Hunt:

media, and how do we steward our social media, well, as followers

Aidan Hunt:

of Jesus, I think it starts with understanding that you should

Aidan Hunt:

probably set limits to how you how you use it, both in what you

Aidan Hunt:

use it for, and how often you use it, how much time you spend

Aidan Hunt:

with it, I think that's probably a good starting point, to kind

Aidan Hunt:

of D shaping our lives from from the, from social media.

Matthew Starner:

And that's something that I think it

Matthew Starner:

everyone's gonna have to look at that for themselves, right? You

Matthew Starner:

know, the, just like, when we talk about, you know, other

Matthew Starner:

addictive things like alcohol, for some, what's the saying, you

Matthew Starner:

know, for someone who struggles with alcohol, one drink is too

Matthew Starner:

much, but 1000 is never enough, you know, kind of thing. You

Matthew Starner:

know, if you, if you really struggle with addictive things,

Matthew Starner:

if you have that addictive personality, you know, maybe you

Matthew Starner:

really need to limit your time that you spend online. For

Matthew Starner:

others who maybe don't have as big of an issue with that, you

Matthew Starner:

know, maybe allow yourself a little bit more leeway with

Matthew Starner:

that, but you're gonna have to prayerfully kind of make that

Matthew Starner:

decision, what's a, what's a appropriate limit for you. And

Matthew Starner:

as parents, you know, what's an appropriate limit for your child

Matthew Starner:

at whatever age they happen to be at. And then, and then stick

Matthew Starner:

to that as a parent.

CJ Geluso:

I think Another good tip would be tried to portray

CJ Geluso:

yourself in a real way, don't act like a perfect person on

CJ Geluso:

social media. I don't, we're all broken, we're all sinners, and

CJ Geluso:

we all need Christ. And I fear that that's when people start

CJ Geluso:

getting the wrong image of who they are finding their self

CJ Geluso:

image not and God is when they start comparing themselves to

CJ Geluso:

other people. And we have to remember that these people are

CJ Geluso:

only posting their good things typically, I mean, somebody is

CJ Geluso:

not doing a Facebook status with a big picture on their worst day

CJ Geluso:

ever. Typically, it's their day at the beach. And so even

CJ Geluso:

sometimes those those pictures are edited and, and so we can,

CJ Geluso:

we can find a lot of a lot of lies and that it is

Aidan Hunt:

important to remember that social media is

Aidan Hunt:

not an accurate portrayal of anybody's lives. So not only

Aidan Hunt:

should you not pretend like your life is perfect on social media,

Aidan Hunt:

I think it's important to remember that nobody else's is

Aidan Hunt:

either and we can often get caught up in that we see

Aidan Hunt:

everybody's lives and the things they're doing and the

Aidan Hunt:

experiences they have and we can look at them because their life

Aidan Hunt:

is so great and you know they're probably are really well. All

Aidan Hunt:

things about their life, but they don't have a perfect one,

Aidan Hunt:

there are things that are going on that you aren't going through

Aidan Hunt:

and that you, you know, can't even imagine the same thing.

Aidan Hunt:

Like we have wonderful things going on in our lives. But also,

Aidan Hunt:

there are some things that we struggle with. And we don't want

Aidan Hunt:

other people to have to, first of all, see those things. We

Aidan Hunt:

also don't want those people to have to struggle with them as

Aidan Hunt:

well.

Matthew Starner:

Right? Yeah, you're seeing the highlight

Matthew Starner:

reel. Yeah, from everybody's life, for the most part. One of

Matthew Starner:

the other dangers, I think, of social media. As you as you gain

Matthew Starner:

more, as you have that like community on there, you've got

Matthew Starner:

followers, whatever the platform calls it, it can kind of lead

Matthew Starner:

to, and this is a thought that I'm having for the first time.

Matthew Starner:

So this isn't one that I've written down here before. So

Matthew Starner:

just bear with me, but it leads to, I think, a false sense of

Matthew Starner:

community in those settings, because you're, you're

Matthew Starner:

interacting with people, but it's it's not a real

Matthew Starner:

interactive, I don't want to say it that way. It is a real

Matthew Starner:

interaction, but it's different from interacting one on one in

Matthew Starner:

like a personal close, intimate way with another human being or

Matthew Starner:

group of human beings. You want to you want to be careful with

Matthew Starner:

that false community that you don't like, you know, get too

Matthew Starner:

vulnerable on it, I guess, you know, there there, there should

Matthew Starner:

be some healthy limits of things that we don't put out for the

Matthew Starner:

world to see, it feels like it's maybe just my followers who

Matthew Starner:

might see this. But when it's out there, it's out there, you

Matthew Starner:

know, it's public, and we want to want to maintain those

Matthew Starner:

healthy boundaries, I guess, is what I'm trying to say here.

Matthew Starner:

Recognize that those are those numbers of the likes and

Matthew Starner:

followers of their people. But it's a different relationship

Matthew Starner:

than like, say, your small group at church, which everybody, we

Matthew Starner:

want to encourage them to be in a small group at church where it

Matthew Starner:

is that kind of close, kind of closed off personal connection

Matthew Starner:

that you have ongoing connection that you have with people in

Matthew Starner:

real life. That's not to say that you couldn't have some form

Matthew Starner:

of that online. But maybe just being aware of this is out there

Matthew Starner:

for the world. Be careful, the kinds of stuff that you put out

Matthew Starner:

there. about yourself.

CJ Geluso:

Yeah, cuz once it's out there, it's out there. You

CJ Geluso:

know, it can be a very vulnerable place social media.

Matthew Starner:

We've seen people, you know, celebrities

Matthew Starner:

and high profile people get taken down by the stuff that

Matthew Starner:

they post online and 10 1215 years ago, right? Yeah, I think

Matthew Starner:

things from long in the past that can come back and haunt

Matthew Starner:

you. I think one of the other things to maybe to think about

Matthew Starner:

in terms of kind of going along with what CJ said a moment ago

Matthew Starner:

of how you post online? And how would Jesus post online? I kind

Matthew Starner:

of wonder, would Jesus post about himself a whole lot? I

Matthew Starner:

kind of think he probably wouldn't post a ton about

Matthew Starner:

himself. But maybe more about what God's doing the kingdom, he

Matthew Starner:

would point to that sort of stuff. Maybe you know, we're,

Matthew Starner:

we're guessing here because, because I don't know, I'm not

Matthew Starner:

Jesus's Social Media Manager. his publicist, but

Aidan Hunt:

can you imagine the job of being Jesus? Oh, boy. Oh,

Aidan Hunt:

whoa, I

Matthew Starner:

think I think maybe Peter wanted to do that,

Matthew Starner:

you know, he was always kind of a spokesman for the group and

Matthew Starner:

Jesus often was saying nobody calm down. But, but I think

Matthew Starner:

that, you know, Jesus would maybe be posting a little bit

Matthew Starner:

less about Hey, look at this thing that I did. And maybe more

Matthew Starner:

about like, hey, look at what the kingdom is doing. Look what

Matthew Starner:

God's doing look at what the people of God are doing. Now

Matthew Starner:

certainly Jesus is a part of that and connected to that. And

Matthew Starner:

you know, so maybe in our own lives, the stuff that we post,

Matthew Starner:

maybe maybe trying to use it a little bit more for the kingdom

Matthew Starner:

in terms of posting about what God's doing, rather than like we

Matthew Starner:

joked about earlier the humblebrag kind of thing you

Matthew Starner:

know the good thing that I just did what's what's God doing

Matthew Starner:

point out those things I think those are are huge

Aidan Hunt:

if we if we hold to really believing that everything

Aidan Hunt:

we do should be done worship to God I think having that mindset

Aidan Hunt:

of like before I post this on social media like is this

Aidan Hunt:

glorifying God in some way? Does this point to him now maybe not

Aidan Hunt:

directly like I'm not we're also not saying like should you throw

Aidan Hunt:

your phone away and delete all those means that we're saying I

Aidan Hunt:

mean, you can do that if that's what you feel like you're you're

Aidan Hunt:

supposed to do but like you're allowed to post pictures of your

Aidan Hunt:

grandkids on social media or like you and your boyfriend at

Aidan Hunt:

you know whatever

Matthew Starner:

like those are good things like delicious meal

Matthew Starner:

yeah in front of you which is that

Aidan Hunt:

concert you went to like do things you we are like

Aidan Hunt:

you should share like highlight reels are okay because you want

Aidan Hunt:

to tell people the good things of your life. But it's important

Aidan Hunt:

for us remember like not all parts of our lives are good. And

Aidan Hunt:

not everything in our life is going to be perfect and not

Aidan Hunt:

everything everybody else's life is going to be perfect. But you

Aidan Hunt:

have that mindset of it is me posting this done in detriment

Aidan Hunt:

to myself and detriment other people's in detriment to the

Aidan Hunt:

ship at the Lord or is it glorifying him? Is it showing,

Aidan Hunt:

you know, the good things that he is providing me with is it

Aidan Hunt:

You know this really good meal like we can thank God because

Aidan Hunt:

good food is part of the design that God made a good food for a

Aidan Hunt:

reason. So we can share that with people that's an okay thing

Aidan Hunt:

to do,

Matthew Starner:

right every verse or every verse every post

Matthew Starner:

doesn't have to be a Bible verse right now. You know we can we

Matthew Starner:

can be genuine we can post about ourselves and our life and But

Matthew Starner:

yeah, I like that I'm doing it in a in a Christ like way that

Matthew Starner:

honors people. Man, if if everybody did that second one

Matthew Starner:

that you said, if that doesn't like hurt other people, the

Matthew Starner:

internet would be just a tremendously different place

Matthew Starner:

right now, right? Because there's so much of that tearing

Matthew Starner:

each other down. And that's not what we should be about.

CJ Geluso:

And social media is a spot to connect, you know,

CJ Geluso:

connect with friends maybe that you've you've known and lost

CJ Geluso:

touch with over time, or don't see much. So it's okay to post

CJ Geluso:

about that new job that you got, but maybe instead of, you know,

CJ Geluso:

I look at all this hard work that I did for my new job, maybe

CJ Geluso:

Hey, you know, I put the work in, and God blessed me with a

CJ Geluso:

with an opportunity. And so maybe just even changing the

CJ Geluso:

thought process before posting?

Matthew Starner:

Well, I think that's maybe a good place to

Matthew Starner:

wrap this up that, you know, we didn't solve all the problems of

Matthew Starner:

the social social media world. But you know, posting in a

Matthew Starner:

Christ like way posting in a way that isn't, isn't going to tear

Matthew Starner:

ourselves or others down. You know, things that are are

Matthew Starner:

positive, not argumentative, I think those are, those are great

Matthew Starner:

ways that we can represent Jesus in His Church, on our own social

Matthew Starner:

media platforms. So thanks, guys, appreciate the the input

Matthew Starner:

here and I look forward to doing this again, the next time we

Matthew Starner:

talk about culture and faith together.

Matthew Starner:

Hey, guys, Pastor Matthew here, with just one quick resource

Matthew Starner:

that I wanted to leave you with today. As you're reading your

Matthew Starner:

Bible, you might find yourself kind of wondering, you know, I

Matthew Starner:

read the paragraph or I read the chapter, whatever portion I'm

Matthew Starner:

reading, what do I do now? How do I dig into this a little bit

Matthew Starner:

more. And I want to share with you this, it's really on our

Matthew Starner:

website, it's a books, a bookmark that we've got. But

Matthew Starner:

there's there's actually a whole book about this, but it's called

Matthew Starner:

the seven arrows of Bible reading. And it's a simple

Matthew Starner:

little tool that you can use, whether you're doing your

Matthew Starner:

reading by yourself with your family, small group, whatever,

Matthew Starner:

have a way to just sort of dig into the text a little bit. And

Matthew Starner:

as you'd imagine, there's seven different arrows on this little

Matthew Starner:

bookmark, that that each one prompts us to kind of ask a

Matthew Starner:

different question about the text that we just read. What

Matthew Starner:

does this passage say? What is this passage mean to its

Matthew Starner:

original audience? What does it tell us about God? How does this

Matthew Starner:

teach us about humanity? How does this change the way I

Matthew Starner:

relate to people? How does it prompt me to pray and what does

Matthew Starner:

it demand of me, it's a great way to just especially for those

Matthew Starner:

passages of Scripture that maybe you've read a bunch of times and

Matthew Starner:

you feel like you know it, to slow down, pause and reflect on

Matthew Starner:

God's word and dig into that a little bit deeper, so we can

Matthew Starner:

apply that to our lives. We're going to drop a link to this on

Matthew Starner:

our website in the show notes. And but you can also just find

Matthew Starner:

it by googling the the seven arrows of Bible reading. And I

Matthew Starner:

hope this is a another useful tool for you as you are being a

Matthew Starner:

disciple every day.

Matthew Starner:

Thanks for listening in today on all these great conversations.

Matthew Starner:

We'd love to hear from you as we continue this journey together.

Matthew Starner:

If you could rate and review us on whatever platform you're

Matthew Starner:

listening to us on that would help us out and help others find

Matthew Starner:

us. And if there's a topic you'd like us to talk about, let us

Matthew Starner:

know. You can email us at media at St. Matthew gr.com. Thanks

Matthew Starner:

for listening and keep following Jesus together as we become

Links