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009: Do you punish your child with rewards?Jump to Highlights
00:53 Introducing this episode’s topic and guest 04:09 Dr. Houri Parsi has been applying evidence-based parenting methods from the Your Parenting Mojo podcast for two years. 08:54 Dr. Houri talks about their initial parenting beliefs and later exploring respectful and mindful approaches as their children grew older. 16:24 Dr. Houri changed her parenting approach after joining the Parenting Membership, moving away from using rewards or punishments and focusing on understanding and trusting their children's needs instead. 27:11 Dr. Houri initially struggled with giving up rewards and punishments due to her behaviorism background but eventually shifted her parenting approach, opting for a collaborative and respectful parenting style. 39:46 Dr. Houri discussed her parenting style, focusing on aligning with personal values rather than enforcing compliance. 52:18 Dr. Houri encouraged parents to shift from guilt-driven authority to collaborative parenting.Transcripts
Hi, I'm Adrian in suburban Chicago land and this is Your Parenting Mojo with Jen Lumanlan. Jen is working on a series of episodes based on the challenges you are having with your child. From tooth brushing to sibling fighting, to the endless resistance to whatever you ask, Jen will look across all the evidence from thousands of scientific papers across a whole range of topics related to parenting and child development to help you see solutions to the issue you're facing that hadn't seen possible before. If you'd like a personalized answer to your challenge, just make a video if possible, or an audio clip if not, that's less than one minute long that describes what's happening and email it to support@YourParentingMojo.com and listen out for your episode soon.
Jen Lumanlan:
Do you ever wish you could get rid of the rewards and consequences but worry about what would happen? Does it sound amazing but seem impossible that your kids would do anything you ask? After all you might be asking and then reminding and then nagging and then begging right now and they don't do what you want. So how could using fewer rewards and consequences be helpful? That's exactly where a parent Houri was when I met her a couple of years ago. She started listening to the podcast because she wanted research-based information on her children's development. She is a psychologist herself and actually trained in behaviors-based approaches meaning rewards and punishments. Houri had a difficult childhood herself and knew she didn't want to replicate that with her own children. But there was one key idea that made things difficult for her. She wanted to be a good parent, and she thought that when her children complied immediately, that was evidence of her good parenting. She thought she was failing as a parent when she didn't get that. But she was also kind of at her wit's end as she said in our conversation, the expert took away hitting as a tool to get compliance and then took away screen time, so what was she supposed to do? Over time, Houri realized a few really important ideas. Firstly, that taking a few extra minutes to make sure a child consents to doing a task like brushing teeth now builds up trust, that means it takes less time in the future. She also shares a story about her daughter, who was about five at the time, described punishing her father with what we would typically call disobedience or unacceptable behavior after one of these breakdowns in trust. It's an amazing story to hear in her daughter's own words. And you may never look at your child's serious misbehavior in the same way again. Houri is awed at her daughter's insight into her own feelings and needs and believes that raising children in this way will revolutionize our culture. She describes how she overcame her own internal resistance to using her power over her children to get immediate compliance. The logic she explains took my breath away when I first heard it, and I hope you find it impactful as well. It's been amazing to see the shift in Houri and her family over the last couple of years and now to share her story with you.
Jen Lumanlan:
Hello, And welcome to the Your Parenting Mojo podcast. And today we are here in the home of our guest, Dr. Houri Parsi, thank you so much for having us.
Dr. Houri Parsi:
Oh, my pleasure. It's lovely having you here.
Jen Lumanlan:
It is my first tasting of fresh tea.
Dr. Houri Parsi:
Hopefully not the last.
Jen Lumanlan:
Yes. Thank you for the tea bags.
Dr. Houri Parsi:
Yeah, absolutely.
Jen Lumanlan:
So we're here today, because we've been working together for a couple of years. And I've been lucky enough to have lunch with you before because we're Yeah, close.
Dr. Houri Parsi:
And working is generous. I think it's more me seeking your counsel. And then, like, trying really hard to be your friend.
Jen Lumanlan:
So whenever we get together, you always make me think and I mean, the highest compliment (oh what a nice compliment). And so when I was thinking about, you know, interesting people to talk with, I immediately thought of you. And so maybe you can start off by just giving listeners a bit of background like yeah, where are you? What's your what are you? What's your, you know, where do you come from?
Dr. Houri Parsi:
Sure. Yeah, so I am well, the reason I'm here is because I've been an avid listener of the Your Parenting Mojo podcasts, and I read your book, and I'm sort of a, I guess, a convert, a follower of your models and philosophies. And I've been using them for the last two years. I have a six year old daughter and just turned five year old son, who's on the autism spectrum. And they are very different. So how this sort of came to be was in, I've been able to share with you sort of as a friend, but more for your own collection of anecdotes I guess. Some of the outcomes, some of the incidents, I wouldn't call them incidents, maybe just the experiences, you know, that we've had, that I attribute to the application of sort of your philosophies, and I thought it would be or you thought one of us thought it would be you know, it may be helpful to share some of those as somebody who's been using, you know, the philosophies. But I think that one of the reasons that I, you know, when I talk to you, I want to dissect the, the theories. And I do it for my background, which is that, so I have a doctorate in clinical psychology. And I'm also an attorney said, I do primarily family law, although I do some other forms of civil civil litigation at times. And family law involves a lot of family problem solving, and a lot of consideration of children's best interests and their needs and their development. So there's a crossover into the science of parenting, and then the studies and the data that's around parenting, to both of the fields that I come from, both in family law and as a clinical psychologist. And then I would almost label my role as a mother as my third career, like, you know, the third hat that I wear, and they all have this thing in common, which is how much expertise can I apply to this role, from the vantage point of, you know, parenting and child development. So I, I grew up with a single mother. I'm Persian, I was born in Iran. And then I grew up the second half of my childhood was in California. And so I would, you know, describe the parenting model in my home is traditional. I was very authoritarian. I rebelled a lot against it. It was, you know, very traumatic and a lot of time in a lot of different ways. And so I already sort of knew that I was going to have to have a more mindful approach to my own parenting, because I wasn't going to repeat, listen unconsciously.
Dr. Houri Parsi:
The philosophies that I came, came with, as in my own history as a child, so I got turned on to you, we were just talking about the friend that I had that, you know, had commented on a post about potty training, and then sort of commenting back and forth and then had shared your podcast. And what I was really looking for at the time, my daughter had just been born. And what I wanted was not another parenting book with a model or philosophy, although that's what you have now, at the time. At the time, what I wanted was not someone to say: here's the best way to do it, I know best. At that time I wanted, you know, I really saw myself as an evidence-based person. And I wanted to approach parenting, you know, with the definition that it can be a skill and science that can be practiced, learned and eventually mastered. So from that point of view, what I wanted was the data. What I wanted was the evidence and the research. and it's just incredible how much parenting books that are out there are not evidence-based. They're not research-based. And I should say that pediatrics and child development was not my focus in my clinical education. I did forensics, because of the law crossover. So I personally, aside from just some of the basics hadn't, you know, dug deep into child development, from my clinical psych background, so I but I knew the studies existed. And so here you are, with this podcast that I told you earlier, I described it as like, oh, there's this woman who's just giving away like free lit reviews on audio that you can listen to while you're like breastfeeding and while you're like, you know, going on your walks and stuff. So it was just the perfect thing that I needed at the time, which was, you know, pick your subject, you have a question about, here's a summary of what's out there, and then kind of do what you will. So I was on the journey with you as you gather all that information and ultimately, developed a strong point of view. And with certain hiccups and obstacles and reluctance, eventually bought into that point of view.
Jen Lumanlan:
And lots more on that to come.
Dr. Houri Parsi:
Yeah. And so I apply it daily.
Jen Lumanlan:
Yeah, yeah. And so, obviously, you think deeply about a lot of things. I'm curious as to whether you had any ideas about what you thought parenting was going to be like before?
Dr. Houri Parsi:
Yeah. Well, I would say first, I didn't realize how much work it was gonna be. And I know everybody talks about it, sort of, but they don't really talk to non-parents about it right. Or non-parents. Yeah, it's kind of shocking. And then the other piece of it was there's this South Park episode I don't know if you've seen it where you know Cartman is like this bad kid. And the dog whisperer comes. She tries all the mom tries all the nannies, all the all the TV nannies like The Super Nanny and stuff. None of them can get Cartman to like, behave. And then the dog whisperer comes, mom comes and just as all a dog whisperer tricks and is able to get him to behave and he's just like, we're just eating dinner. We're the parents. He we just ignore him. He's gonna eat after us. He's like: I can't eat fried chicken in front of me and not here. And they're like, just you know, he's gonna tire himself out. It's fine. either, I guess I just gotta do my homework. I thought I thought I was gonna bear, like it's gonna work. Right where the, like the hierarchical parenting philosophy. South Park take on the dog whisperers, Alpha Dog, you know, to the point where in the episode Cartman ran away. And the nanny, Susan was like, oh, he'll come back. You don't always find they're always by the way, oh, I really, I thought I was going to be a lot more laissez faire. I thought I attributed a lot of my own successes to my parents' neglect, you know, when you hear these sorts of anecdotes about how third and fourth children becomes independent. And I mean, to some extent, that's true, if they somebody isn't catering to their needs, you'd figure out how to make your own needs. Nobody puts the asterisk that with some major emotional traumas attached. I mean, yes, you figure out how to meet the need. That doesn't mean that you do it without trauma. Right. So but for me, I thought I was going to be kind of a, you know, laissez faire, they'll figure it out, you know, loving, but not not, as you know, I guess, not as chronically mindful. I mean, those there's two words for you. I mean, just be mindful. Yeah, that's, that's how I would describe it. It's sort of become something that's on my mind all the time. Because I mean, at this age, right, five and six, I expect other people have been telling me that it's coming a nd it still hasn't. I still don't see, expect that they will need less and less parenting, but they're milking it. Ok. Yeah.
Jen Lumanlan:
And so you thought that you were going to be kind of, you know, laid back, and then they arrived...
Dr. Houri Parsi:
Only laid back in the sense of not doing everything for them. Right. But also authoritarian, yes, a very top down. Yeah. So laid back sometimes means like, anything goes, no, no, no, I'm not doing anything for you. And you're going to do everything I say.
Jen Lumanlan:
Yes. I'm not going to repeat the mistakes that my parents made, because they hurt me so much. And I thought,
Dr. Houri Parsi:
Yeah, I guess I thought that there would be a kinder way to do that. Yeah. You know, that if I was just, you know, nicer. Rather, there wasn't a flaw in the fundamental, you know, degree of mindfulness around the parenting and meet meeting of the needs and all of that. I didn't think that that was the flaw, right. I think I just thought, you know, that if you're loving and nice that it doesn't matter what dynamic you actually yeah, that's what I thought.
Jen Lumanlan:
If you're the one who's giving all the orders, and you're in, you're in a position of power.
Dr. Houri Parsi:
I mean, I had had, I had had really great, you know, I was in school because I have two doctorates. I was in school through my entire 30s. I had had really great professors, really great bosses, managers, supervisors, through therapy, training, there's always hierarchy. And, you know, I it did not occur to me that simply the authority and the hierarchy was itself inherently bad. Or maybe that's the wrong word. I don't even think it occurred to me that there was another way.
Jen Lumanlan:
Yeah, yeah. And then your children arrived.
Dr. Houri Parsi:
Yeah.
Jen Lumanlan:
And what was it like in the early years?
Jen Lumanlan:
Dr. Houri Parsi:
Just, I mean, exhaustion. I mean, just joyful exhaustion is how I, I still would describe it as that. Yeah. Just total utter joyful exhaustion. All the time. Yeah. It's kind of amazing how a good friend of mine who had her first child at 19. So she had gone through a lot of the parenting stuff way before me. You know, he had said to me, once, you know, that children, I said something about how they, I know, I know, children really, like, you know, tap you and exhaust you. She was oh, and also fulfill you they do both right, simultaneously. So that's, yeah, that's how it was. And then the way Hartsville is, okay.
Jen Lumanlan:
The sense that I got from you was that it was that you were you were still in that authoritarian mode. Right. At that point in the early days.
Dr. Houri Parsi:
Yeah, yeah. We were recommended, I mean, it worked from the point of view of if what you want is compliance, right, we were recommended by our pediatrician, the 123 Magic, Oh, yeah, hich we were like, wow, this, that's work. We were recommended to us, you know, timeouts, you know, a minute per year of life. Also kind of, you know, worked, I would say worked, again, if compliance is what you want, right? Right. You want to shape the behavior to fit, you know, the parents' viewpoint of what the behavior should look like, whether it's not crying about something or sharing something or whatever it is. And, you know, if it's cessation of some kind of behavior that you find inappropriate, then you can use timeouts or 123 magic to stop the behavior. So from that without resorting to hitting, I mean, all of these models kind of come come, I believe are born of a rejection of spanking, like, well, what else can we do to make our children to control our children? Yeah, if we can't hit right, right. And now we can't use screens, right? Like you took away our, our hearing and you took away screens, Yeah. How are we supposed to do this now? Yeah. So. So yeah, those were the models. And, you know, and I don't think it occurred to me that they, that I needed to even explore anything different, because we were getting into compliance, more or less. Yeah. And then, you know, the timing is interesting, because when you started to lean more into the punished by rewards book, and some of the other aspects of respectful parenting was around the same time that my kids were, you know, in that age, where they were individuating as sort of post toddler years, where the tantrums, you know, weren't just about an ability to self-regulate, or what will be coming about a need for autonomy and so forth. So it was around the same time. So it was sort of apropos for me to think, okay, you know, this, is this philosophically something that I believe in. Okay.
Jen Lumanlan:
And so how did that shift start to happen for you? Because you joined the Parenting Membership at some point.
Dr. Houri Parsi:
Yeah, yeah, I joined it, when I did the Taming Your Triggers workshop. At that time, my kids were not triggering me, my co-parent, my partner was triggering me. But I sort of took it on faith that my kids would also trigger, if there were these things that were making me angry, that I needed to sort of figure out my own history and what was being triggered. But it was really the, the episode you did on punished by rewards and around that same time, I actually think it was, within the same year, at least, that we were struggling with my son, who hadn't been diagnosed as autistic yet. And we were having a lot of meltdowns at the preschool. Like it was, it was really hard. It was really, really, I mean, there was hitting every little thing. I mean, his mood swings, he'd break dishes, I mean, there was a while there, where he was not sort of himself in the sense. I mean, he's always been intense. I described my son as if, if a teddy bear were a cannonball, that's my son. He's really loving, really, really intense, really, in your face, in your space, very loving, very affectionate, very creative, very fun, very happy. Now, he's very, very happy. But at the time, you know, now I know that a hitting phase is very common. But because he was in preschool, we had to have cessation of that behavior very, very quickly. So having, you know, listened and sort of accepted the punished by rewards philosophy of we're not going to try to have punishments not gonna have rewards here, but we need the hitting to stop. I had hired you for a consult or parenting coaching session. And you say, we took two sessions, I still think it only one.
Jen Lumanlan:
Well, there was also group coaching at the membership before, right. And I remember that very early Congress. Yeah. I don't remember all the details, but we were talking about rewards and punishments.
Dr. Houri Parsi:
Yeah.
Jen Lumanlan:
And you would, in my recollection, were somewhat resistant to the idea of, like, not using rewards.
Dr. Houri Parsi:
Yeah. Yeah, I was, and but, you know, had been trained in my own therapy training to just sort of, you know, go along with it anyway, and see what happens, so to speak, right. And I the anecdote around Orion, trying to get complete again, still, I still have the mentality that compliance was the goal. And, you know, I hadn't yet shifted that. And we were struggling with every little thing, getting getting dressed, getting, you know, have the door for anything was a big fight, brushing his teeth was always a big one. And so, you know, we, you and I talked about ways to, you know, handle the brushing teeth resistance. And I wanted to sort of prove to that I was doing all the right things, and that my situation is just like harder than what you think or something like that. And there isn't, again, he wasn't diagnosed at that time. So I think that it was a different flavor to it that we weren't aware of. However, what was surprising to me was because I want to show that to you, I was recording it, and so that by the time that we met, I could play it for you. And so, for the recording, performing for the recording, I was not going to threaten or punish or even offer a reward and and what I remember was that he came around in four minutes, which I would have thought would have taken forever.
Dr. Houri Parsi:
And so what I remember the incident still, which was that he didn't want to just say, "No, I don't want to brush, I don't want to brush." I did all that normal life, sing song and dance and try and make it fun. And he was just like, "No, no brushing, no song, no toothbrush, nothing." And because it's recording, I thought, well, I'll just ask him, you know, I'll just ask him. And at this time, he was two, he wasn't even fully verbal. And that was a big part of why I thought this is not going to work, he's not even going to be able to tell me. So I said, "Why don't you want to brush your teeth?" I think that was the first time that I'd really even like, you know, created the space. And he didn't answer directly, because he's, he couldn't, he just said, "Mommy" and he buried his head in my chest. And in that way, communicate to me that what he wanted was time with me. And so I reflected on it and realized, you know, that time when he and I are in the bathroom together is one of the only times he gets with just me. And so he benefits from prolonging it as long as possible.
Jen Lumanlan:
For connection with you.
Dr. Houri Parsi:
Yeah, And just that time to do this thing together. So, you know, put the lid down the toilet and sat down, give him a hug. And we sang a song I think together, and then he just brushed his teeth. Yeah. And the whole thing was less than five minutes without any meltdown. So that was a that was a turning point, I think for us. And then after that, I made a illustrated some of the different tools that I illustrated like a tooth brushing menu for him where there are different places a picture, a little drawing of him brushing his teeth, in his bedroom, or in the table and or in the bathroom. And so thinking about, well, what is my goal here? What do I you know, I'm worried about his dental health, right? So that's important. But what's not important is where he brushes his teeth, or even exactly when as long as it's like twice a day, more or less, right. So thinking about the fact that like, Nope, he's got to do it in the bathroom schedule, right before he leaves, it's got that these are all I have thought were just routines and as a way to learn what's the right right way to go. But wasn't actually connected directly to the goal that I had other than the authority piece. So once we realized that once we realized they could brush your teeth anywhere, including in the car, I mean, literally, we have a little cup of them this but to they have their sippy cup, and their toothbrush, with toothpaste on it head down is in the spit cup.
Jen Lumanlan:
You were about to revolutionize mornings.
Dr. Houri Parsi:
It was a life changer. Life changer. If you refuse to brush your teeth, either at night or in the morning. That's all we do, we just put the two toothbrush, head down in a in a sippy cup, maybe we make sure we have like some water, like I said sippy cup. And then typically five minutes later or 10 minutes later, if you've backed off, and then you remind the news handed to them or whatever, then they will do it. It's a lot of it is about the rushing around the routine that they're resisting and other things. So that's the other piece of it is that the resistance is typically not about the subject matter of the resistance, there's something else a dynamic or an energy, they're resisting.
Jen Lumanlan:
The need. It's yeah, I'm hearing need for autonomy, right? Like I will be the one who decides when and how this is gonna happen. Yeah, And I don't like being rushed. So there's sort of this emotional safety aspect to it. So when I feel safe enough to do it, I'm gonna do it.
Dr. Houri Parsi:
And I think it is a lot more transition time and a lot of kids probably do. And so just putting the toothbrush next to him in the car when we're driving somewhere. And then we get there, we're like, Okay, we're here. Time to go. And don't forget finish brushing your teeth. Like, he's already it's been introduced to him. He's had that whole 10-minute drive or whatever, just to kind of come around to the idea instead of Orion to do it right now. So yeah, for us, including him in the bed. It sounds crazy that they brush their teeth in the bedroom. But it does say sometimes I'm just too tired. I'm just I don't want to go. I'm just want to get in bed. Well, you know, again, we just talked to them about we leave it up to them. But we don't let them get away with without thinking about the consequences. Right? So it's a delicate dance because you don't want to shame them. Right. But you don't want them to just be neglectful of their own self-care either.
Jen Lumanlan:
And so what I'm hearing from you is cognitive flexibility in you. Right? Yeah, a lot of parents that I work with, we get you know, and myself included, right? We get it, we get it into our heads that these things have to be done in a certain way for it to "count." Yeah. And if we can have the cognitive flexibility to think okay, what is my actual need?
Dr. Houri Parsi:
Exactly.
Jen Lumanlan:
If my need is for my to protect my child's health and safety, Yeah, Okay, then can I be flexible about where that happens, and when it happens, yeah, how it happens and all the rest of it, Yeah, then we can find ways to actually meet our child's need for autonomy, for safety, for all those others.
Dr. Houri Parsi:
Yeah. Well, for me, and I would suspect for a lot of parents, if you ask yourself, what is my goal here, I think if you were honest, what you would actually have to say to yourself is: Are we in charge? Right? Like the compliant having immediate compliance is just for the sake of having immediate compliance because you feel like you're a failure as a parent if you don't have that is so often the reason that these power struggles are so stressful. And I think once you, you know, if you can embrace that immediate compliance doesn't need to be the definition of a good kid. Right? And maybe even, you know, compliance on the hierarchical way or as an authority figure isn't something that you value, then I think you find quite often that like, oh, I guess all I really want is as long as he brushes his teeth anywhere, right. But at the beginning, when you first say, Well, why do I want him to brush his teeth here right now, there is this sort of subconscious, the real drive, I think, is that I'm failing as a parent, if I don't have control or compliance from I get, control over and yeah, so yeah, yeah. So that was the first that was the recognition that it was a few minutes. And then my friend asked me yesterday, I was kind of going over, you know, some of the things that you and I might be discussing today and she said, I said, "It takes a lot of patience." And she said, "You know, how is that affecting it? How do you make build that in?" And I said that, "You know, the net amount of time and energy is less, because once you get back on clients, and then I would use the word "cooperation," right. Once around, brushed his teeth than it, I have built trust. And he will then cooperate with the other things I asked him to do, because he is on, he now sees me as somebody who is on his side, and has his needs and best interests at heart in the way that he believes it is not just like, Oh, I know what's best for you. Right? So you may have all the best intentions as a parent, but they won't trust you unless they think you get what matters to them. Yes. and once you show that to them, even if it takes 5, 10 minutes, what I think you buy your purchasing in that 5,10 minutes, trust, and then you get so much more cooperation and other things as well. So and I think you know, fewer meltdowns, when they do have knock downs, they don't last as long. You know, I just think that in that sense, it takes less time. But when they're young, it still does. It's never as fast as behaviors, you know, rewards and punishments, that's still always the quickest way.
Jen Lumanlan:
So I know that your your the way that you work with rewards and punishments has really evolved over the last couple years. Can you tell me a bit more about how that has happened for you?
Dr. Houri Parsi:
Yeah, I think you know, you know, because we've talked about it in the emails and things that I've really challenged, the notion of giving up rewards and punishments. My philosophical orientation, as a psychologist is I do believe in heavily in behaviorism. And I apply it a lot to myself in sort of trying to abandon habits I don't want to have or meet goals that I want to have, and, you know, rewarding myself or, you know, so it's, I wasn't willing to just sort of not have those tools in the family. And initially, as a result of your interview on the punishment rewards, book, I have thought, Okay, I'm going to accept, because I had also read other literature as well on it, and it jives with me that rewarding behavior that you want to continue robs them of the internal motivation. Like, I'm gonna accept that. But there are things that I really am not worried about them developing an internal motivation, like, I'm not worried that they're gonna grow up and not want to take a shower. Yeah, right.
Jen Lumanlan:
Kevin's kind of with you on that, right, because I remember talking to him, And he was saying, I don't really care if you use rewards for potty training. Yeah. Because I don't care if a child is intrinsically motivated, right? Yeah, I was really surprised by
Dr. Houri Parsi:
That. I was, yeah, yeah. I mean, if there are things that are going to be automatized, you know, behaviors, and they're going to be things that you just, you know, you don't feel there isn't a we don't have a society of people with anxiety around taking a shower, right, whereas we might have anxiety around or procrastination or homework or something. So I think the tendency is for parents to want to reward the behaviors, if they were that they think there's going to be an obstacle here, I'm going to use the reward to overcome the obstacle or the resistance. And so my first sort of landing spot in reconciling my behaviors background with your philosophy was, I'm only going to reward the things that I'm not worried about developing intrinsic motivation. So you know, if they don't just go into the bath or the shower, and don't yell or scream, when they wash their hair, then they get whatever screen time or candy or something, because I'm not, I'm just not worried about that. And that was my first kind of spot. And then what you had said to me was, well, that still puts you in the authoritative position. You're still the one doling out the reward. They still have to go to you to seek the approval. And it's still defined entirely by your needs and your goals. So it still develops a dynamic that is not in line with what I thought we were thought you got. Right, which was what I now coin as legalitarian parenting, right? So people call it respectful parenting and gentle parenting and I've told you that I, in my opinion, I think you can be gentle. And I think you can be respectful without this philosophy. It's really challenging the authoritarian perspective of it that children have to do what I say because I'm the parent. And I've said so. And instead, my job is to build trust. And if I build trust, then they will want to follow my guidance, because they believe that I care about them. And I'm not going to only follow my own agenda. So. So yeah, at the beginning, you know, when you challenge that, and it was a very quick sell to me, I mean, I think I read and I was like, just right, like I just it was, yeah, yeah. So we did, we did, I did, I did stop rewarding those things as well. We, we still have things like we have an allowance and stuff like that, but they're not based on rewards. So I have found certain ways to have rewards and punishments in my parenting style. One is that with rewards I do, I literally pay the children to do the things that are my job that I don't want to do, that they have no responsibility for. Because the thing around the the the allowance and stuff was like household chores and things, we just call it helpfulness. and everybody has to pitch in, and I don't pay for chores, but if they want to take out like the neighbor's trash, like when they're on vacation, or something when the neighbor pays them.
Dr. Houri Parsi:
So if you can find something that somebody else, you know, needs and so there's certain things like, if I'm busy, and I'm eating in the office, or the bedroom a lot, and there's a pile of dishes, you know, it's not theirs, and they want to clean up for me, I will reward that, like, I don't care if it's them, or I'm hiring someone else to come do it. Like I've literally offered an is not she took it up me up on it once. But I literally offered her once because I have ADHD. And so I do what's called body doubling. So where you work, you either as a grad student and a college student, I just had to work in the library or in a coffee shop next to someone else was working on it, that social cue. So now they have this bottom doubling services on Zoom, where you kind of work while someone else is working. So I told, I was like I pay for this service. If you want to do your homework while I work, and help mommy stay focused for every 10 minutes that you stay focused, and then I feel guilty if I'm distracted or go to my phone if you're if my six year old can stay on her homework. So if you stay focused, and that inspires me to stay focused, I will pay $1 every 10 minutes.
Jen Lumanlan:
Wow, that's a pretty good rate.
Dr. Houri Parsi:
Yeah, because how long can she really go? She's six. Right? So at first she was like, I think she did do it for I think, like 10 or 20 minutes. And then now every time, I've nothing. Yeah, and that's okay, that's fair. You know, it's totally okay. Because it was just, but what I like about that dynamic is that she sees she can see how I struggle with something. And she can provide a service to me to resolve something I'm struggling with, and be rewarded for it if she wants to, but she doesn't have to. And then around punishments, you know, we had the fortunate or unfortunate situation where we had to have cessation of the hitting when Orion was going through that phase. And at the time he was three at preschool. Because it was, there was about a month or so it was almost a daily occurrence, maybe not maybe a couple times a week, but it was often enough that the preschool was like they were being patient with us. But they're like, we need a plan. We need a behavior plan. So I didn't feel I made the judgment call that his impulse control. And his frustration tolerance was simply not going to develop fast enough to meet sort of the social needs of that particular environment without a behaviorist intervention. I didn't think especially because I'm out there with the team, right? Even though they're wonderful team, and it was boustani just spoke with them. I had to find a different way to get through to him to sort of overcome what for him at that time was just a very limited frustration tolerance.
Dr. Houri Parsi:
And so we I developed the idea of a toy jail. And it was just a big bin, clear bin. And if you hit somebody at school that day, or hit a sister, or hit me, then he had to pick a toy, and at the beginning, he would refuse so then I would pick one. And he pretty quickly picked up on the fact that Oh, I a toy is going in the toy jail, so I better I better participate. So he would pick a toy. And then at the beginning, it was three days the toy would be in jail. And I would draw a little picture of the behavior that led to it so it was visible it was we could see it, it would be like in the middle of the dining or not dining room, the kitchen. And we would just mark the tallies of how many days so we have a countdown so he could see it every day he saw the behavior that led to it and he was looking forward to getting it out of there and he knew that he needed to not hit an It was very happy when it when it was sort of sprung out of jail. And it was powerfully effective for the goal of stopping the hitting, because it got to the point where if I saw him bubbling up, I saw that frustration building, I would just say, this might be a point of the situation. And he would suddenly take that pause, you know, you say, give yourself this pause, just the word toy jail had built up enough of an association for him, that it short circuited almost the brewing frustration, and gave him just that little bit of margin, a space he needed to reflect, And he would choose a different way to go. And so obviously, he has an issue that isn't getting fixed by not hitting. But I have found in him that he does, he doesn't know how to ask for help from an adult, he doesn't know how to sort of communicate his needs, or walk away. There other things that he can do if he can get out of the trap of his own frustration. And so this punishment, this consequence, provided enough of a negative association, to make him think twice. And so yeah, it was very effective, I would say, we stopped using the toys after maybe a week. It might have it might not even been gone into this week, too. And then sporadically, maybe every few weeks for like a day or something. And then I mean, just less and less until over the summer, I think last May or June, so he would have been four, and it would have been about maybe six months or so after the toy jail. So we probably, I think we've gone a couple months without having to break it out. And my daughter ran down and said that Orion had bet her and which is not like him at all. And I was like, that's really surprising. And I asked her a little bit about what was going on. And, you know, they had a power struggle around a stool. There are two stools there. The one they were there two identical ones, but they're fighting over one. He was on first, but it's usually his spot or her spot something anyway, and so he done this thing. So she ran down, she was upset, he came down by himself right after, and said, Sorry, I didn't mean to bite you. And so then she said, You can't not mean to bite someone And bite someone, right? And you have to want to bite somebody in order for that to happen. And so then we had a little lesson about intent, and accidents. And I said, you know, there's something in the middle, which is sort of an impulse, right. And if you want to change an impulse, you can't just intend not to do it. You need to actually train yourself. And so we discussed And I said, that's why we did the toy jail, and Mommy has things that she does for herself to change bad habits and so forth. And so what do you guys think? I think I hadn't even mentioned the toy jail yet. I think I just said, I always just open it up and say, What do you think we talked about? What was the negative effect of the behavior? How can you repair you know, make it a apologizing, offering something? And then how can what's a good consequence that would help sort of train what I call your your caveman brain or your animal brain to help you not be controlled by the impulse? That's how we talk about it.
Dr. Houri Parsi:
So it's very separate, I make it very clear that I'm not shaming them, that we all have these impulses. And we need to train them, you know, so that's how I see it. And I think that gives them the freedom to know that I don't see them as a bad person, or a bad kid. So when I said: What should we do, as a consequence, ever yelled that toy jail, right? And Orion said, "No, I don't like to jail." And I said, "I know you don't like it, honey. That's why it works. Because you're gonna remember this thing that you didn't like, next time, maybe act differently when you have that impulse." And it was like this light bulb went off. And he said, "Maybe my BART trains and he has this large like, wooden train station. It's like a subway train station. And I was like, "Okay, it's really big." And I think it fit in the bin. So I was like, okay, so I was like, so I went to get it. And I was waiting, I got to talk to my BART train. And it has a little announcer recording and he recorded themselves saying, "My precious precious BART train. I know you don't want to go into toy jail. And I'm never gonna bite my sister again. But I did bite her today. So that's why I'm going into toy jail for three days. But then you're gonna get to come out, don't worry it and then I'm not going to do it ever again." I mean, he wasn't just like on board with the consequence. He was talking like, you don't have to have a psych degree. No, he's talking to himself. Right? He's soothing himself. He's thinking about the future. He's making goals and intentions about changes of behavior. You know, I was just really blown away. So from that point of view, for me, it reconciles the piece about I'm not doling it out. We're a team. We're all trying to train ourselves to manage our impulses better. This is just a tool that we use, and it seemed like he got it. Yeah.
Jen Lumanlan:
And that's what I really appreciate about your parenting approach, right? Is that you you take these ideas and you make them your own. Yeah, and you make sure that they fit with what you believe is right. And I really don't think it has to be my way or the highway, right? Like I have a fairly strong set of ideas and some tools that have worked for a bunch of parents. And they don't work for everybody in exactly the same form, because we're all different people. And we believe different things. And we have different values. And at the end of the day, I personally believe the most important thing we can do is to raise our children in alignment with our own values. Yeah. And if we have done that, we will look back at the end of our lives, and we will genuinely be able to say I did the best that I could, I would not change what I did. And to me, that's, that's where I want to be. Yeah. And I think that's where you want to be. And so you're making decisions, And you're taking actions that are aligned with what you believe. And I totally respect that, even though it's a little bit different than then yeah, we'll do it. Yeah. So once you decided to abandon compliance, and that being the goal of your being with your kids, what changed what was different after that?
Dr. Houri Parsi:
The outcomes of a parenting world without compliance as a goal, I think. So the first thing I'll say is that I think my fear that at the outset was that I was going to get these kind of crazy Hellion misbehaving children that are out there spoiled and not following any, any kinds of rules. And it has not been that at all. They are, you know, articulate and they've always what they want at home, but outside of, but even at home, they are kind to each other. You know, they're there for me, but but what I've seen is that they've become sort of social leaders, you know, this, their school, where they're at is always saying, you know, they're some of the most well behaved, articulate, polite, happy kids at the school, my son, there was a day where the principal called me to say that she just wanted to kiss her on that day. And, you know, so he was he hadn't turned five yet. And that she wanted to come out on a sunny day and bring the bubble ones into the TK, the four year old class. And when she brought them all the kids like, swarmed it, and he just went into Dr. Parsi mode, and just went, this is a social, we need to all get in the line. And then I'm gonna count to three, and on three, you're gonna take a 1,1,2,3. And she said, she couldn't believe everybody listened to him. And when somebody jumped on line, he goes, We're all just gonna wait, we're all just gonna wait. I mean, this is a kid. So I get, I might get resistance at home. But he's learning the language of how to pay attention to sort of what the needs are, how to come up with a solution that gets everyone's needs met, and was able to do it.
Dr. Houri Parsi:
So you know, we're just getting in, my daughter has been able to come up with solutions with her friends. You know, they're, they're five and six years old. And you know, her friends want to stop being friends with her one day, because she's too serious, and they're too silly. And then they had a conversation to decide one day, there'll be a silly day when they will be silly. I mean, they just, you know, they're, they've actually been so good at being social leaders being problem solvers, but also they know when to these "compliant" or follow the rules in different environmental settings. So I it is not true that if you raise your children to be equal in the home, that they're going to somehow become these anarchists outside of the home. That is, that connection is something I think we all fear that is just not there at all.
Jen Lumanlan:
Yeah, I think a lot of parents think And I think our parents probably did, to some extent, think that, well, it's a cold, hard world out there, right, and I gotta prepare you to be successful in it. And clearly, you're not going to be successful the way you are right now. And so I'm going to train you and shape you and hurt you a little bit. Now, in the service of you being successful down the line, yeah, you're essentially saying you don't need to do that hurting now, right, for maybe a better outcome, right? Because they're actually coming from a place of knowing I am fundamentally lovable, I'm fundamentally okay, because I don't have to change myself to be loved, be seen, is loved, and acceptable by my own parent.
Dr. Houri Parsi:
And they have practice diplomatically articulating what their needs are. So they don't need to act out you know, in these other settings. So yeah, I mean, the Yeah, the hitting completely stopped at preschool but beyond that, we've just getting this excellent feedback from so I would say, being you know, social leaders, problem solvers outside of the home is one thing that I've seen. The other piece is you know, the self-discipline and internal motivation for their age is quite advanced. You know, I was last Halloween I decided I was going to see about just letting them decide when they were going to have candy themselves they could and we could discuss as a family what the rules and parameters would be, you know, started that kind of from a Spider Man lesson if you you know, more responsible you are the more sort of power you have more freedom you have. What are some ways that we can show that we can be responsible with our you know, eating choices and let them brainstorm. They said they came up with the first one they came up with Orion that he said not fight to trade candy or share. And then Ever said, not eat too much at once. And I said, You know what mommy and daddy care about, right? Like how we would the vine or think of a responsible candy eater or just sugar person, and they immediately picked up on, you know, protecting against cavities, so we have to brush our teeth after. And then I reminded them also that we don't want to be picking up all the candy wrappers so together collaboratively, in I think, a very egalitarian fashion, we had a joint goal that we wanted to see if they could meet what was their own idea of responsible around candy. And if they could, then I would totally back off and let them choose whenever they wanted to eat it. If they created a plan and didn't follow it, they could still have candy, but I would be in charge of it for a day. They could tweak their plan. They could tweak, they could ask for help, whatever they needed to do, to be able to sort of follow through better. And then they would try to get the power back the next day and try.
Dr. Houri Parsi:
And so we talk about things like that. And my it was I mean, there were Yeah, when I was four, she was six. I never would have thought I could just put a giant bowl of candy out. But they both they drew their paper, three pieces in the morning, while Ever said two then she wanted three because Orion said three, I asked her if she thinks that it should be the same. She changed her mind and said I think two is enough for me. But then when it came time, she ate her two in after school and then to a dinner. Orion had a third one that she really wanted a third one. And she was she came to me with this real internal dilemma. She didn't say Mom, can I have another one. She didn't throw a tantrum. She said, Mom, I don't know what to do, because I really want another one. But I want to follow my plan. And she decided to deviate. And she said to me, Okay, I'm gonna break my plan today. So then that meant the next day I control the county doling it out. But after that, I think I got this. And she did. By day three, she was yeah, she was really able to stick to her plan. So the timing, articulate what she thought, you know, that it needs to be paced that I mean that so. So I would say the internal motivation and the self-discipline and the delayed gratification skills are for both of them. Although Everest is much better at articulating them. But what I see in both of them is way beyond years. And I don't have to place the candy anymore. I know. I know, I'm never the bad guy who's denying the handy look they're eating, they eat more than I would be necessarily happy with. But that is a no brainer. It's such a good price to pay if they have a few more pieces of candy to learn these other skills. That's how I see it. Right. So yeah, yeah.
Dr. Houri Parsi:
And then and then the third piece, and this is really huge for me, is the the insight into their own needs. Right? Because you and I were talking a little bit about how when I was training training to be a therapist, we were effectively taught that it takes at least six months of therapy before your client can even acknowledge truly acknowledge that defense mechanisms and denials And blame shifting And all this other stuff, truly acknowledge what their needs even are or how or what their motivations are, if they're self sabotaging, or pushing someone away, or whatever. And that at the beginning, you just kind of build up enough of a therapeutic alliance to be able to get them to be honest with themselves and you about what's going on. And there was a day where Everest had been to the doctor with her dad. And the situation required some authoritative control that she was not happy with, which was that the nanny and and her dad took Orion and Everest, and the nanny held in which had to restrain them for their vaccinations, their shots. She held the nanny held Orion and Travis her father held her. And apparently she was very upset. She wasn't ready for it. She was very scared. And he restrained her and she called the shots and then had a major major meltdown afterwards. And so that evening, we were chatting about a little bit and I said, you know, honey, I heard that you had a really bad time in the doctor's office today. And she said, Yeah, I did. And I was really mad. And I said, Well, that's surprising, because you last couple of times I took you you didn't even crack anything. And she said, Yeah, but this time, you know, I was upset and I and I hid after and I said, Where did you hide it? Because I hid in the street and why why would you do that? She said, I just had an urge to do something dangerous. I said, Why would you do that? That's all like you just said I think I just wanted to make daddy worried. And I was like, Well, why would you want to do that? She said you know, Mom, it's kind of just like a punishment. Like when you really want to get through to someone because he made me feel scared and worried and so I want to make him feel scared. Like just the candidness with which he could be like, you know, it's been it's not like that. There.
Jen Lumanlan:
Okay, how old is she?
Dr. Houri Parsi:
She's six, six. Yeah, I mean, just an I hadn't said it didn't say, do you think you were mad at dad? Do you think? No, I didn't feed her any of it. Yeah, she was like, I acted out in this non out of character way. Because I was trying to get through to my father, because he put me in a state of anxiety and fear. And I couldn't get through to him that he made me feel this way. So I tried to create that same feeling in him, right through this the way that I was acting out. And it's what was shocking to me wasn't that she had this meltdown, or that, oh, surprise, surprise, if you don't kind of go at her pace and give her time and space. And you were saying her consent, that it's upsetting. But the Insight towards her own motivations, you know, the idea that, I mean, it's just completely countered everything I learned,
Jen Lumanlan:
Did it take you six months to get to that?
Dr. Houri Parsi:
Of therapy before she could admit it? I mean, yeah, if you, if their needs are equal to yours, then the defense mechanisms don't have to be built up. There's no need to hide it. Because her needs are important and valuable. And, and the default assumption is that whatever she did, even if it was resistant behavior, or dangerous behavior, the default assumption is that it was there to meet a need. And she knows that even if she doesn't say that exact thing. If that's the culture in the house, you're raising children who do not develop the same defense mechanisms that we all have in our society. And the idea of a society of individuals with insight into their motivations around their unwanted behaviors or their harmful behaviors. I mean, that would revolutionize criminology. I mean, in a personal I mean, couples, I mean, everything. So we're at least Yeah, I was gonna go there. But yeah, so I would say that you drop compliance, you get these other rewards, you get these huge other rewards. And it's, it's really been phenomenal, because I get to just sort of observe it, right? It's we observe these outcomes. And yeah, so that's, it's going I mean, I would say it's going well. It's still tiring, I still feel like I'm doing a lot of coaching, a lot of narrating a lot of articulating. I mean, in the old days, I wouldn't have had this conversation with her, for example, right? Like, we might have just had a punishment around the meltdown. Yeah. Right. So.
Jen Lumanlan:
And then you might have been feeling guilt and shame around doing that, potentially. Yeah. So as we start to wrap up, we've been introducing a practice of sort of having ways that that listeners can sort of access this and if they want to try some of the ideas for themselves, and often we do it in sort of three levels of difficulty. But I think there's sort of one big idea that you wanted to leave us with that was really kind of transformational for you. Yeah. And in a way, I think you can sort of access that and in a bunch of different ways. So can you maybe share what what is the the thing that you're that you're hoping that the main...
Dr. Houri Parsi:
Takeaway? Yeah, I guess. So. We've talked about how you, you don't you can reconcile the model, I think, to fit, you know, your own family needs, if you can identify what the values are. And I would just challenge every parent to first see if they can identify how much is compliance, your definition of a good kid? How much does it matter to you? And then where does that come from? Is it really important to you to have authority and hierarchy and compliance? Or could it be that collaboration and cooperation and respect, and kindness and helpfulness, and these other things could achieve some of the same goals and outcomes without needing the hierarchical authoritative compliance? And when you start reflecting on well, is compliance really important to me, I think you have to look at where it came from. And for me, I remember very distinctly, reading some of your emails about this about the authority. And I remember feeling resistance like to it like, I don't know that I can go all the way there. Right. And so I was coming up with all the reasons why that's a bad way to go. And then my internal dialogue was like, Well, I'm the parent, just as if just the title of the role is enough. I'm more educated, I'm the older one, I pay for the house, I supply all the needs I you know, and so that these things, the the life experience, and education and the provision of the finances, that these things should themselves, give me the power over their needs, should make my needs be more valuable than their needs.
Dr. Houri Parsi:
As I was hearing these thoughts, it sounded they were all the same things that they say in Iran and other very heavily patriarchal societies about reasons why the men should have dominion over their wives or the women the same. Usually they're older, they're the ones providing the money, they're that you know, and I could not I still cannot think of a reason of why the children should just do what they're told by their parent because of the child and you're the parent, or why the parents needs should, you know supersede the child I still can't think of a reason that I don't hear used as justification to oppress women. So for me, personally, I had to come to the realization that I couldn't be a feminist or believe in equality of the genders in the home and simultaneously demand that I should have authority or control over my children versus a family culture where all the needs are equal, and we work together collaboratively to meet all of our needs. That was yeah, that was my that was when it just I had to like that. I think I was like dancing with a dancing with a dancing with it. Like maybe it's better. I don't know, maybe it's better doesn't feel right. Maybe it's better. Just doesn't, I just can't see it, you know. And then when I had that aha moment, I just couldn't, I just couldn't. And so from that moment on, it just became okay. Well, I guess I, I guess I'm a not authoritative parent. I mean, what's funny is there there's moments where I fall back into it. There was a day where I and I feel the cultural pressure, there was a day where every had a friend over and our friend says she was thirsty. And I said, Every year your friend is thirsty, can you go downstairs and get her some water? She said, No, I don't want to right now. And I was like, You have a guest who needs a beverage. You are a Persian girl.
Jen Lumanlan:
And you told me a little bit about your family dynamics? Well, I was offered and
Dr. Houri Parsi:
Iran, if you've been Iranians, for Iranians to have a guest and not offer them food and drink, or God forbid, that they're hungry or thirsty, and you and you just like, Oh, I'm busy. Like, oh, my God. Yeah, I know that. And I do think that there is something to be said for, you know, there are some cultural things that I want her to have and carry, and, you know, so I make some assumptions.
Jen Lumanlan:
And so then the practice is, if you're hearing this, the ideas we've talked about in this episode, and you're experiencing resistance, if you're thinking, yeah, that's not gonna work for me, that's not gonna work for me,
Dr. Houri Parsi:
Not from the kid but from the parents.
Jen Lumanlan:
Yeah, if the parents resistance is feeling resistance in themselves, which can often comes out in the form of that will not work for me, right? Well, not for work for my child. We are a unique circumstance, we this is this is definitely not going to be something that we can actually take off. Yeah. Yeah. To really take a look at why why is that? Right? Where's that coming from? And, and
Dr. Houri Parsi:
Also, like, give it a chance. I think what's so amazing is like the same thing that that requires and demands immediate compliance from the child is sort of demanding immediate, like compliance or a solution from the model, right? Where what we're talking about as a cultural shift. So I think if if you give it a true chance, it means I'm going to try this for weeks months and see, because it's not, it's not a quick fix kind of thing. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Jen Lumanlan:
Thank you for being here. Thanks for making me think.
Dr. Houri Parsi:
Oh, my gosh, thank you for I mean, no, it's I mean, defining my my parental experience and journey. And, you know, I hope to raise children who if they don't want to be, you know, changemakers, or impactful in this world, at least, feel empowered to be impactful in their own lives. And that's going to always be there's going to be a direct line between what they're able to accomplish in their own lives and in the world. And the work that you've done, because it's basically defined, you know, how I'm using them now so during their formative years, so thank you. Thank you.
Jen Lumanlan:
It's a real pleasure to be here with you today.
Dr. Houri Parsi:
Pleasure is mine.
Jen Lumanlan:
If you have a child aged one to 10, And you are sick and tired of the rewards and punishments, but you're feeling afraid that nothing would ever happen in your house without them unless you did it yourself, then I would love to see you in the Parenting Membership. We will support you in developing a vision for your family, the skills to bring that vision to life. The motivation to continue your own growth as a parent and also as a person and a customized plan to help you make it happen. The Parenting Membership is open for enrollment right now, but only until midnight Pacific on Wednesday, May 15th. To learn more and sign up just go to YourParentingMojo.com/ParentingMembership.
Adrian:
If you'd like Jen to address the challenge you're having in parenting, just email your one minute video or audio clip to support@YourParentingMojo.com and listen out for your episode soon.