Dive into an eye-opening interview with Jonathan, who shares his transformative journey from being a lifelong member of the LDS Church to navigating the complex aftermath of leaving. After his departure, Jonathan faced severe addiction and sought rehab treatment. His story takes an unexpected turn when he recognizes the manipulation techniques he learned within the church affecting his personal relationships. 

Discover how Jonathan's self-awareness led him to acknowledge his narcissistic tendencies, developed as a shield against shame, and how this realization ultimately cost him a significant relationship. Now, Jonathan is on a mission to educate and heal, particularly focusing on how men can better understand and respect women's perspectives within and beyond the church.

In this candid conversation, Jonathan also reflects on his relationship with his father, a faithful LDS member, who despite following the church's guidelines, passed away unfulfilled. This video is not just Jonathan's story; it's a call to action for empathy, understanding, and personal growth.

LDS Church exit story

Mormon church manipulation

Narcissism recovery

Addiction recovery story

Relationship after church

Understanding women's perspective

LDS and personal growth

Healing from religious trauma

Self-awareness journey

Therapy for narcissism

#LDSJourney

#NarcissismRecovery

#UnderstandingWomen

WEBVTT

check hello

beautiful humans welcome to

the midlife revolution i'm

your host megan connor and

today i have a wonderful

guest who is going to

enlighten us about some of

the problematic

dynamics within high demand religion.

This is a subject I've been

wanting to talk about for a

really long time.

I spent my entire life

surrounded by narcissists

and people with

narcissistic personality traits.

And I've long been

passionate about trying to

help people learn and

understand more about these traits

how you can successfully

navigate relationships with

people even when they

exhibit narcissistic traits.

Also,

I'm equally passionate about

teaching people the skills

and the tools that they

need to use to defend

against narcissistic

personality traits and the

ways in which these show up in our lives,

in our relationships.

Okay, so John,

welcome to the Midlife Revolution.

I met John on TikTok and you

go by House of

Deconstruction there on TikTok, right?

That's right.

Glad to be here.

So tell us a little bit

about your background and

how you got here.

Yeah, well, it's quite the journey,

but that's the beauty of it.

Let's see.

I'm thirty eight.

And let's see,

I was a junior at BYU when I

first started questioning

And it, it unraveled pretty quickly,

I would say.

And, it was a struggle.

I think, you know,

I've talked to some of my

other friends who were at

BYU at the time and we all

kind of left together.

And unless you really fill that void with,

with, with purpose,

you can get swept away in a

lot of different things.

And I kind of was, good and bad, uh,

but.

You know, over the past ten years,

I struggled with alcoholism, addiction,

and just really finding who

I was and what all this

means once you leave the church.

And that's led me to a lot of, you know,

deconstructing, changing the way I think,

meeting different types of people,

just really experiencing

life to the fullest,

both the good and the bad, right?

And that was going well.

And I'd kind of felt like I'd, I'd hit, um,

some breakthroughs and I

was feeling really good, very sober, um,

felt like I'd conquered that.

And I wanted to reach out

and kind of talk to other

ex Mormons and kind of give

them some tips.

Cause it had been, you know,

it's been twelve, thirteen years.

where I've learned a lot.

And what I was seeing on Tik

TOK was a lot of people who

had just left the church.

And so I was like, Hey,

I could have really used

some help when I was

leaving the church and

after to kind of understand that.

So I started making videos

obviously like a lot of us do.

but more so geared towards how to

navigate it with some compassion and,

and love there.

And I was really excited about it.

And then,

what was that about six months ago?

And then life really kind of

slapped me in the face and in a good way.

It's led to a lot of

awakenings and unblocking things.

And I was actually with my

previous partner, girlfriend,

who I thought was going to be, you know,

she was the one,

she was not raised in the

church therapist.

We had amazing conversations.

We'd get really deep.

And I have to say, you know, a lot of,

what I'm going to talk to today,

I owe to her and actually

listening to her and

understanding her perspective,

which is what is so crucial

that we men are going to need to do.

And we should have been

doing this whole time is

really listening and trying

to put ourselves in female

shoes because it is a different reality.

And so I realized that I had

I'd lost this person that I

thought was going to be

that that special person.

And I realized that it was

it was my fault.

And I had hurt her.

And it kind of came, you know,

we're going back and forth

towards the end.

And I finally accepted, okay,

this woman is no longer

going to be in my life.

She's not a part of my future,

which was tough.

But we all you know, that happens.

And so I was just

I tried to start manifesting

and getting back into a

routine and really trying

to get on the right path again.

And I imagined if I had

everything I wanted and I imagined what,

what a day that would look like.

And I realized that I was

still going to be stuck

with me and stuck with this mind.

And I didn't want that.

I didn't,

didn't want to really be

here anymore because I and

I realized then I didn't

really like who I was.

And that got me thinking, you know,

there's just so many

different things where I

acted a certain way that I

couldn't understand how

other people acted.

And so I started to seek, um, you know,

we had her and I had talked about,

you know,

our parents and they were kind

of narcissists and my dad

for sure was a narcissist

and you never think that's

going to be you.

Um, but I, I was desperate and, um,

my world had kind of

collapsed and it wasn't working for me.

And I, I didn't realize I was,

but I took some assessments.

And I scored pretty high for

narcissistic personality disorder.

And so that got me thinking.

And I answered him really honestly.

And I think that's crucial.

And so I scored pretty high

on a few of them.

And I was like, okay.

And then I went on TikTok

and I found other men who

were diagnosed narcissists

who would talk about it.

And I found one in particular.

And I...

I listened to everything he

said and I agreed with,

resonated with and thought

the same as he did about eighty percent.

And I was like, OK,

but that really helped me

because it made me

understand what narcissism is.

And really,

it's just it's a lot of shame

and it's a lack of ability

to self-validate.

and to love yourself.

And that it's simply

basically a coping

mechanism of how you were

raised and how to feel safe,

how to feel seen.

And some of those behaviors

become maladaptive as you

become an adult.

And that honestly really, really helped.

I felt a little bit of

relief and I hate that it took.

hurting someone you really,

really love to get to that point.

But we got to talk about the tough things.

And I think this is a way

where hopefully other men

can see this because honestly, right now,

how Mormons are raised,

how most of men are raised

in the patriarchy and the

entitlement that we feel,

if I were a woman,

I wouldn't want any part of it.

And so this movement of women saying,

you know, we don't need men.

You don't.

You don't at all.

and kind of figuring out

this was really really

eye-opening and that's not

to say that everyone all

men here are narcissists

but we all have it a little

bit and there's a spectrum

and my hope is that i think

in the coming years as

information just is so

rapid that we're going to

talk about narcissism

the same way we talk about

addiction with a lot more

empathy and understanding that

people get addicted because

they're hurt and they're

trying to soothe.

And that's where I think

narcissism can play a role here.

And obviously there's a big spectrum,

right?

There are some narcissists

out there that are just so

far gone that there's no real hope,

I think.

But I think it's a lot more

nuanced to that.

And I think a lot of guys out there

that are,

that have narcissistic tendencies

have no idea.

And I can kind of give, uh,

input and light what that

feels like from my

perspective as the abuser,

or I didn't think I was at all, but, uh,

going back through it, I absolutely was.

And once you figure that out

and you have that self-awareness,

then the healing can come.

And I have to say in the past six months,

I did a lot of healing,

some inner child work.

confronting this narcissism.

And I can tell you that that

is the greatest joy I've ever felt.

And it felt like for the

first time in my life,

joy was accessible from within.

And it opens up a whole new

world that I really don't

think a lot of men even know is there.

because of the way we're

raised and because of the

differences and how the

patriarchy and the church is set up,

it creates a lot of blind

spots and a lot of

subconscious things that

you're not even aware of

that really block your happiness.

And once again,

I owe a lot of this to

listening to women.

If you're trying to listen

to a guy who talks about how women feel,

that's your first mistake.

Please stop.

listen to women and, and I think you'll be,

be amazed.

So it's been a journey and

that's why I'm here.

And I think more of my

content is going to be

talking about being the

narcissist from the abuser standpoint.

And,

and kind of maybe either helping women

see if there's hope, you know, because I,

I do believe it can be healed.

I really do.

That comes with your self-awareness,

your desire to change.

and your ability to actually

put yourself in another

person's shoes and care

about other people and

getting out of your old, your whole,

the world revolves around me.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So first of all, I want to just say,

I think it's really amazing

that you got to the space

where you could have that

self-awareness and that

introspection because a lot

of people never make it to that place.

A lot of people, as you said,

these behaviors that were

really just an effort to be

seen and heard, they become maladaptive.

And for a lot of people who

those behaviors become their

entire personality and

they're not they lose the

ability to be introspective

the way that you've done.

So that's what I think is

really amazing about your journey.

And I just want to rewind a little bit.

So for for my listeners,

my viewers who maybe don't

know very much about narcissism,

just to sort of reiterate,

I think narcissism is is

largely misunderstood.

I think it's become kind of

a word that people throw around

because we have like this

much understanding of it.

So I want people to become

more educated about what

narcissism is and what it isn't,

about the fact that it's a spectrum.

So just if we can talk briefly, you and I,

about the fact that we all

have some narcissistic traits.

All of us have jealousy, spitefulness,

selfishness, those types of things.

Manipulating things to get what we need.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Manipulating things to get what we need.

And I think that's like that

starts to get to the

unhealthy side of the spectrum.

Like it's one thing for me to say, wow,

I really wish my partner

would call me back more often.

It's another thing for me to, you know,

call them and pretend that

there's some kind of an

emergency or situation that

needs handling.

That would be manipulative.

Right.

Right.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So doing things like that to

get our needs met rather than,

as you were saying, self-validating.

So again,

we all have these tendencies

towards problematic or

maladaptive behaviors.

The difference is that a lot

of us hopefully see that

they're maladaptive.

And we think that's not the

way I want to relate to someone.

And we think I'd rather be

more authentic and

um but a lot of us get put

in a situation very young

especially in high demand

religion where we aren't

seen and heard because

we're not really allowed to

be individuals we have to

just be we have to fit into

this little box that was

given to us so a lot of us do develop

I guess, you know,

maladaptive ways of

relating to people in order

to be seen and heard, you know?

And I think that does start very young,

but I think that you're

right in saying that for

men in the church,

it's a lot different than

for women in the church

because you are instilled

with a sense of entitlement.

So can you talk just a little bit about

Well, maybe before we get into that,

I'll just say that for

those who don't know a lot

about narcissistic personality disorder,

there's a difference

between the personality

disorder and just having

narcissistic traits.

When the traits sort of spin

out of control,

that's when it becomes the

whole personality disorder.

But you can have traits of

narcissism without having

the personality disorder.

And some of the traits that

I think people need to be

aware of that are some of

the most common traits of

narcissism are that need to

feel validated,

that need to feel like

they're the center of attention.

The

Sometimes arrogance or

inflated sense of self-importance,

fantasies of success and power.

And I think the two things

really that stand out to me

most of the time are that lack of empathy,

like you were talking about,

the inability to put

yourself in someone else's

shoes sometimes.

And the other one is that

inability to take

responsibility for your own behavior,

your own actions,

always trying to blame it

on someone else.

So I think that's pretty amazing.

That is a huge one.

Uh, not taking responsibility.

And, uh, of course women can have it,

but men especially, uh,

because of how we're raised

and we'll get into all that,

but you're absolutely correct.

Um,

What really helped me when I

was kind of discovering I

was a narcissist and

listening to another man

talk about being a

narcissist was it's what

really resonated with me as I came,

you will do pretty much

anything at the cost of

others and you don't even

realize it to avoid feeling shame.

And so that comes with

avoiding responsibility.

And I think that comes a lot

with how narcissists can

make you feel crazy,

where if you're asking your

significant other to

participate more or whatever,

and then they,

they emotionally manipulate

and they don't want to feel like we've,

we don't want to feel like

we've done anything wrong.

Heaven forbid my partner

sees that I'm actually not

who I said I was.

And so we can, we do anything.

And I didn't even realize I

was doing this.

We do anything to avoid accountability and,

you know, I'm, I'm trying, you know,

business has been hard, you know,

it's just a victim.

And so you can, you have,

there's different types of narcissism.

And honestly,

I've looked at all of them and I'm like,

I've done all of those different things.

So I, I don't,

I'm not sure if I

necessarily agree with

being pigeonholed into a certain type.

Uh, I use them all and, um, really.

You do anything to avoid feeling shame.

and feeling like you really

aren't that great.

But at the same time,

you know you're not great.

And you don't want anyone to see that,

but you don't consciously know that.

I mean,

all of this is coming after the fact,

but now I can piece it

together once you make that

awareness and you're

willing to take responsibility.

yeah and say oh my gosh i

can see that now i see how

i love bomb i see how i

pushed that relationship

even when she wanted to

take it slow and i just

thought i was panicking and

i just thought i i want

this i know it's for the

best she's the one and i

pushed well that's that's

love bombing and that's not

healthy and these are

things you kind of learn

after the fact so um let's

get back to what we were

kind of talking about of

narcissism really is

The core of it, I think,

is you have no idea how to

self-validate and you need

validation from others.

And then that makes you very

self-centered.

It makes you very selfish in

that what I just need my needs met.

And what it should be is how

can I improve my partner's life?

How can I make her life

better or his life better?

And instead it becomes,

I need my needs met or I'm

going to panic.

and then that person becomes

your only source of

validation and that's

that's a bad place to be

because i couldn't you know

and she would she would say

you know come on you gotta

love all your parts and you

can do this and you know

really supportive and she

became my only source of

validation and and that

happens all too often

with narcissists and that's

a recipe for disaster.

When you can't self validate

and you don't have the

confidence on your own to

create your own happiness

and to validate yourself,

that becomes a very toxic

dynamic where you're

essentially just using the

other person to get what

you need and that's not love.

And when this is going on,

I thought I was fully in

love and I still think I was.

And like you said,

the personality disorder versus tendencies,

that's a vast spectrum,

but I still think I had so

many blind spots that I

would probably put myself honestly,

all the way over into the

personality disorder, but I'm like,

just barely,

um,

I think self-awareness is crucial

and just taking accountability.

And instead of being, oh,

you're just being crazy or,

Uh,

and there's a lot of blind spots that we,

as men have that make that

difficult to drive women insane.

And that's where it kind of

being raised in the,

in the church can kind of add to that.

And as we said before,

there are certain check

marks that if you experienced growing up,

you're more likely to

become a narcissist.

And unfortunately.

high control religion, Mormonism,

enforces and fosters a lot of them.

It checks a lot of the boxes.

Yeah.

So let's talk about that.

What are some of the things

you experienced as a child

growing up in Mormonism,

especially as a man growing

up in Mormonism,

that sort of taught you

that you needed these types of behaviors?

Well,

let's first start off with the very

obvious, uh,

from the time you're a little boy, power,

priesthood, preside, authority,

hold dominion over your family.

Um, you're taught you're,

you have the power of God

using the word power, authority,

all of that, um,

gives you a sense of

entitlement and obviously

thinking you're the only

true church on the earth

and you're a guy.

where everything is just handed to you.

And you don't really even

see that growing up,

but after the fact you do.

And I think that language is

really dangerous because it

makes us feel like we rule

the world and we run this.

Yeah,

so for those who maybe have never

been Mormon or don't know a

lot about Mormonism,

When young men turn twelve years old,

they're given the power of

the priesthood laying on everything.

Yes.

And so Mormons believe that

when Jesus was on the earth,

that he had the power of God, obviously,

to heal, to bless,

and that he gave that power

also to his apostles.

Well,

Mormons believe that when the

apostles were killed,

that power was taken from the earth.

And that Joseph Smith was

chosen by God to restore that power,

bring it back.

So Mormons believe that

heavenly beings appeared to Joseph Smith,

put their hands on his head

and restored the power of

the priesthood to him.

They also believe that

Joseph Smith then did the

same to other men.

They call it an ordination

or being ordained into the priesthood.

And they're taught that they

literally possess the power of God.

And men are taught from the age, well,

from the age of three, basically,

indoctrinated into we're

going to receive the

priesthood when we're twelve.

And we'll have that power of

the priesthood as long as

we keep the commandments

and we're worthy enough.

And then you continue to

progress into higher and

higher offices in the

priesthood with more responsibilities.

And ultimately,

men are taught that it is

their responsibility to

preside over the home.

So it's a man marrying a

woman over whom he has dominion.

When I went through the

temple back in two thousand and four,

I was taught that my husband

would listen to the Lord

and that I would listen to my husband,

who would then listen to the Lord,

which was confusing for me

because my husband wasn't

an active member.

And so I was like, well,

do I not get to talk

directly to God then since

my husband isn't?

Anyway,

that was a totally separate situation.

But I can imagine as a man growing up,

knowing that you're going

to accept these

ever-increasing responsibilities,

and therefore have an ever

increasing sense of power.

I can imagine that would be a big burden.

Yeah.

I don't know if I saw it as

necessarily a burden,

but it was just like

understood that we had more power.

So if you start a kid very

young to think you have

more power than women,

that's going to stay with you.

That's imprinted.

And I think in the temple,

I think I read back in

nineteen ninety or something,

they changed it from there

was the law of the husband.

Like y'all have to do every.

So, I mean, come on, guys.

What do you think you're going to end up?

So, yes.

So we from a very young age,

just the principles in the

church lead you to believe

that you are better than a woman.

It's the hard thing to say.

I don't love it,

but that's what we thought.

and when you're taught i'm

sorry to interrupt you um

at any time when you were

growing up between the ages

of say like twelve and when

you went through the temple

for the first time were you

ever taught at any time

that women had access to

the power of the priesthood

through their temple

covenants or were you ever

taught that women could

ever exercise any kind of

priesthood power was it a

surprise to you to find women

were allowed to do certain

things in the temple to

exercise priesthood power

were you taught any of that

growing up no no nor was i

i just wanted to make sure

no not at all not at all so

you have i mean even from

in primary to sunday school like it was

It was very obvious.

And I think you could

comment too from being the

female side of it.

It's just obvious that we

are held to preside.

And I even looked at the

church teachings on how to do that.

And it just says preside in righteousness.

So we can get into this later,

but the church teaches a

lot without actually teaching Jack.

It's a lot of abstract,

eternal truths that don't

teach you how to foster an

emotionally healthy

relationship with a female.

It just says, you know, I got to BYU.

Get out there and date my wife.

How should we go about doing that?

Just do it.

Just do it.

Just do it.

Just do it.

And so you're taught from a

very young age.

that if you do the things,

you get these milestones, right?

Even in like scouts,

you get praised for it.

Then it's baptism.

Then it's the priesthood

when you're twelve.

Then you're a teacher.

Then you're a priest.

Then you get the Melchizedek Priesthood.

And all of that,

and it's true of any high

control Christian religion,

that leads you to external validation.

which is the core not good

part of narcissism.

And it really just leads to

you just check these boxes.

You check these boxes and

the need for internal examination,

self-reflection,

you don't need to do that.

You don't need to do that at all.

and then even as a young kid

you you have these

responsibilities that are

public i mean you pass the

sacrament that is public

that is in front of

everyone okay and then you

got to go bless the

sacrament and that's you're

nervous as hell right but

if you do a good job people

praise you you know and

you're commended for what

you do so from a very young

age you are taught

That what appears on the outside is really,

really important.

Okay.

And then let's all be very clear.

Like I'm assuming how your

parents acted at church versus at home.

We're two different things.

There's two different people.

Now,

if your parents acted the exact same

at church as they did at home,

you're probably not going

to be a narcissist.

You're probably not going to manipulate,

but come on, like even

you know,

people getting up to give talks

and they use that spirit voice, you know,

don't use a Google search.

I'm like, dude, no one talks like that.

No one.

But we all learn that as kids.

We all learn that that's imprinted.

Yeah.

So there's a couple of

things I just want to pause

and really highlight the

importance of this,

especially for those people

who were not Mormon or,

or don't know much about the LDS church.

What you're talking about is what I have,

what I've said so many times.

Oh, puppy.

Yeah.

Yeah.

She's the best.

Okay.

Come on.

You want to keep going?

What's her name?

London.

london thank you so much for

bombing our video today she

is she's teaches you what

unconditional love is and

treating this dog has

definitely helped my

narcissism oh she's sweet

um so yeah the one of the

main things i want to call

attention to and what i

talk about all the time on

my channel is that my

family members would put on

this veneer their public face and

This is where we learned it was in church,

that in church,

we act as if everything is

fine in our family.

We act as if we are behaving perfectly.

And then when we get home,

it's a completely different story.

When we get home, we're rude to each other,

we're sarcastic.

the kids will beat up on each other.

You know, we will tell on each other,

we'll inform on each other

to get validation from our parents.

And it teaches you that it's

okay to do that.

Not only that it's okay, but that I,

what I felt was like,

is everybody else like this?

Because I remember probably

the first time that it

really just hit me.

My mom had been yelling at me

for something I did wrong,

whatever the flavor of the

day was of the hour.

And then the phone rang and

she had just been yelling

at me and was just like

very angry with me.

And then she picked up the

phone and she goes, hello.

And the switching in that

tone of voice just graded on me so much.

And it made me so angry because I was like,

why can you be nice to this

person on the phone who you

don't even know who it is yet?

Cause we didn't have color ID yet.

right and yet your daughter

who you're supposed to be

loving and caring for you

know whatever minuscule

thing that i did to to you

know make her angry with me

and i just that that was so

confusing to me as a child

i don't think i was any

older than like ten or

eleven when that happened

when i really when it

resonated with me for the

first time and i started

noticing more and more this pattern where

we definitely have a way

that we behave in public

and in front of other people, but,

but it doesn't match at all

what is happening inside the home.

I think that I didn't make

the association until you

are talking about it right now,

that that is a breeding

ground for narcissism

because it's traits of

narcissistic people is that

their words and their

actions don't match.

They have one face in public

and a completely different

one in private.

Yeah.

reputation and appearance is

more important and so what

do i learn i learned that

you know and especially so

this is where you know that

can happen for women too um

but where men i think it's

more toxic is the

leadership positions right

so my dad uh and to his

credit you know he's passed away i

I don't blame my dad for anything.

And that's the thing.

You can't blame anyone for anything.

We're all just acting under

what we were taught and our

programming and what we saw

growing up is so crucial.

And if you compared what my

dad's dad did compared to what my dad did,

my dad crushed it.

Granddad owned a gas station

and my dad became a really

successful doctor.

He was a bishop.

He was in the state presidency.

He was admired.

He had everything that you

would want as a man in the

in the Mormon church.

But

So we, as kids, we,

we see this and you see all

these people coming up and

praising your dad and saying, oh my gosh,

I love your dad.

He's just the best, you know?

Cause my dad put on a mask

at church and he was there

for those people.

And all of us, you know,

I'm the youngest of four.

We're all like, who,

who are you talking about?

And so that reinforces for us.

Oh, okay.

how we act at church and how

other people perceive us is

more important than authenticity.

And, and it's rampant in the church.

It is just, and it's,

no one does anything to stop it.

I mean,

all the brethren who get up there

and talk, who use that voice,

like you don't talk like that, man.

Like it's, it's laughable these days.

And so, um,

And they would pass it off

as I'm being influenced by the spirit.

And that's why I'm talking that way,

because I'm under the

influence of the Holy ghost.

And when the Holy ghost is really with me,

I take on a different demeanor.

I'm gentler.

I'm kinder.

My voice is softer.

So yeah, that's, that's a big thing too.

I remember now growing up,

I didn't do anything.

terribly wrong um I didn't

drink or anything I was at

a high school where there

was like ten Mormons out of

fifteen hundred right um I

never drank or anything uh

maybe a little fooling

around with a female or two

which was really really bad

and my parents almost like

disowned me and they sent

me to Provo for a summer to

get away from this girl but

did they teach me why that

was bad did they teach me

and sit me down and say John

no they got pissed because

everyone in the school

found out everyone in

church found out and you

quickly see like it's more

important for what everyone

else finds out so what is

that foster it fosters a

lack of integrity yeah all

that matters is what is

seen and so many times i

saw like my parents or my

mom would keep things from my dad

So he wouldn't like this

goes on in the home where there is lying.

There is just doing what you

have to do to survive.

So

Yeah.

Well,

I do want to go back for a second

because there was,

there was a second thing

that you were talking about

that I think is so

important to the formation

of personality disorder traits.

And that's,

it's the bishop's interview,

the worthiness interview.

And when you're talking

about getting the

priesthood as a twelve year

old and then advancing to the next level,

like I know that you had

this and I had it probably

to a lesser degree because, you know,

women,

we had our class presidencies when

we were young women.

It wasn't the same or as

important as the priesthood,

but we got a bishop's

interview every year as well.

And it's this idea that,

that you have to have

someone else declare you

worthy like your worthiness

and your your sense of

self doesn't come from you

it comes from your

priesthood leader who tells

you that either you're

worthy or you're not worthy

and so it develops in us

the the very idea of

external validation it's

built on external

validation because it's not

enough for us to say i feel

worthy although they did

start adding that later on

like the last temple recommend question

is now,

do you think that you're worthy or

would you declare yourself

worthy to enter the temple?

But they didn't have that

when we were kids.

And so for me, very much, I learned that,

as you were saying,

I had to check a set of

boxes in order to have

someone else evaluate me

and declare me to be worthy.

And so it sets us up to need

external validation for the

rest of our lives.

And the other piece of that

is the perfectionism.

When you're talking about

giving the sacrament prayer

in front of everybody as a

sixteen year old boy,

you had to do it perfectly.

If you got one word wrong,

they made you start over.

And do it again.

And the shame that must have come up for,

for all of you.

Every time you got,

I think that's where we all

developed anxiety.

We all developed anxiety

passing the sacrament or

blessing the sacrament or whatever.

If we had maybe done

something that week that we're worried,

oh my gosh.

Do I need to tell the bishop about that?

Am I worthy to pass the sacrament?

And then, of course,

if you do do the right thing,

you go talk to the bishop.

Well,

now he's saying you're unworthy to

pass the sacrament.

Everyone can see that.

Right.

Or you're unworthy to take the sacrament.

Everyone can see that.

And so there's PTSD all up in that.

It teaches us that it's not safe to fail.

It teaches us that it's not

safe to be authentic

because even the smallest,

most minute transgression

or mistake is going to be

seen by everyone and you're

going to receive

consequences that are very public.

Very public.

I mean,

you tried passing the sacrament

tray to your dad and he has

no idea what's going on.

And only you and your mom know,

because we've hit it from

the dad because he would

just lose his shit.

Um, that's, that's, that's,

that's devastating.

Um, but you're absolutely right.

From a very young age,

we have to go into a room

alone with an older

gentleman who determines if

we are worthy.

the problem

with the church is it

really disconnects you from self.

Is I can only be blessed or

I can only be happy or I

can only have joy if Heavenly Father

If I do all the right things

and I can get my love from

heavenly father,

instead of I am just

endless light and love.

And I have that capability within myself.

You always got to rely on somebody else.

And then you got to get a

little temple recommend,

or you have to be worthy

each year growing up to be deemed worthy,

where they ask you some

really personal questions

that make you feel really uncomfortable.

And, you know, you,

you maybe you had swear

words in your mind too much

the last week and you're

panicking because you don't

know if you're going to

pass this worthiness thing because, oh,

by the way,

it's ward temple night and the

youth are going to do temple baptisms.

And if you don't go, your dad and mom,

they know something is up.

And that is beyond horrifying.

Right.

So you're absolutely right.

It's unsafe to screw up.

Now,

I'm sure there's some parents out

there that were really cool.

And I'm hoping that these

more modern parents these days,

that's being done away with.

But for our age group, man,

that was traumatizing.

Yeah,

and it's not just your parents that

see you not participating

in War Temple Night.

And for me personally,

I lived in Connecticut

during middle school and

high school years,

and we had to travel to Washington, D.C.

to go to the temple.

So it's a six-hour drive.

Okay.

And it's a big deal.

And we would usually find

some kind of overnight accommodations.

We would stay with members

or something like that so

that we could drive down, do baptisms,

stay the night,

go to church and come back the next day.

And so it was a really big

deal to have an overnight

trip with everybody,

all of the youth in the ward.

And if you didn't go, it was like, well,

what's wrong with you?

And then gossip, gossip, gossip.

Gossip, gossip, gossip.

And also back in that day,

you were not allowed to do

baptisms for the dead as a

female if you were on your period.

Oh my gosh.

Because they were afraid.

I didn't even think about that.

I guess they were afraid

that we would contaminate

the baptismal font.

And so it didn't matter

whether you used pads or tampons,

if you were on your period,

you were not allowed to get

into the baptismal font.

And so we were assigned a

task of either passing out

towels or helping in some other way, but

For some reason, for some people,

it was a little bit of a

steam valve of a let off

because it's like, OK, well,

if I'm not worthy to go,

I'm just going to tell them

I'm on my period.

I think that's weird, though.

I'll just assume that's the

reason I'm not participating.

but it was such a weird thing.

And it was again, yet again,

another way that teachings

of the church made me feel

disconnected from my body,

made me feel ashamed about

my body and made me feel

like I was less than and not,

not clean to participate

because of something I had

no control over, you know?

Goodness.

well that's just another kind of

example of like something we were

not that they would teach that,

but just very unaware as

being a man of other

people's issues and problems,

just finding out about that now, you know,

being thirty eight.

But of course,

that's a that's a that's a

common thing that should be considered.

It also just goes to how

disconnected and uninformed

the male leaders of the

church are about femininity,

feminine hygiene, a female's body,

you know,

thinking about garments being

designed by men and

issues that women have specific

to garments that men wouldn't have,

for example,

garments causing yeast

infections and other problems.

So it's like if they really

were talking to God,

I don't think that they

would have this lack of

information or lack of knowledge,

you know, God would let them know.

Okay.

I know maybe you think it's

gross if a woman's on her period,

but it's not going to hurt

the baptismal font.

If she gets in the water, you know,

if they were really talking to God,

I don't think they would be so ignorant,

but anyway, that was a tangent.

No, that's great tangent.

And it's, it's a,

it's a perfect example of the arrogance.

and the entitlement and the

lack of empathy of figuring

out your perspective

getting a female's

perspective growing up in

the church as a man don't

need to do it and what i

saw you know the the

activity in the home for a

man at least for me was

very superficial

was within the Mormon church,

there's doctrine and then

there's some kind of gray

areas where it differs from

family to family, right?

So for example-

In my family,

my dad was so against caffeine,

to a scary point.

We all had this.

You're playing a little league soccer game,

and you go, and they bring drinks after,

and there's no Sprite.

And so you literally have to

just stare at the cans and say,

I can't have any of that,

because my dad won't let me

have caffeine.

And OK, swimming on Sunday was so,

he was just, he would not allow that.

Um, and keeping the Sabbath day holy,

but we could totally watch football,

even sometimes go to friends' houses,

but swimming was just like,

absolutely not.

And then, um,

is it because he believed

that Satan had dominion over the water?

I didn't know because he

never taught us why.

Okay, got it.

That's something I heard

later on is the reason they

don't let missionaries swim

is because Satan has

dominion over the water,

which I don't know how that

works with the rest of the

theology or whatever,

but it's another one of

those weird Mormon myths.

So this is the reason I bring it up is,

but also my dad and my mom,

never went to the temple

ever that was like not that

was not a thing and we also

never had even when it was

like required not once

family home evening wow

and and it shows you and

i'm not saying that all

mormon families do that but

it shows you you can pick and choose

it shows you that it's not

really that important.

And once again,

that just solidified that

what goes on in the home

and behind closed doors

doesn't matter as much, you know,

but going to church and

being in a church boy, that's important,

but going to the temple, they didn't,

they didn't do that.

And, um,

But then like crazy about caffeine.

So when you have that, you just have this.

And maybe why I developed

more narcissistic

tendencies more so than

other people was I saw that

you could pick and choose

and it really didn't matter.

And what really mattered was what was seen,

your reputation, that outward appearance,

and

yeah yeah so i thought about

that and it's funny like

the the one thing that

forced my dad to be with

family at home he avoided

and so what do you think

that taught us you know

like this is one thing and

so he was he was really um

absent you know emotionally

absent father so my mom

tried to pick up the slack

for that and that's also

another formula for narcissism

that dynamic.

Yeah.

So that the,

the example of picking and

choosing which rules we're

going to follow sort of

gives you this sense of

entitlement of like,

I'm important enough that I

get to choose what I'm going to do.

Yeah.

I'm going to choose which

rules I'm going to follow

and which ones don't apply to me.

So that it, this,

this implication that some

of the rules don't apply to

me and I get to pick which ones they are.

Wow, this is blowing my mind.

We see that growing up.

And so what does that make us think?

Yeah.

I mean,

these are all things that I knew

about the church,

especially after leaving the church.

I think I became

disenfranchised with the

culture of the church a long,

long time ago,

because as a female and

also as a female married to

someone who wasn't active in the church,

I was like a third class citizen.

And then when I got divorced,

it was even worse.

So I already knew some of

these things about the culture.

being really unhealthy,

I didn't get to the truth

claims until much later.

So I already was in this

space where I knew this

stuff was unhealthy,

but drawing the parallels

between how we are brought

up in the church and narcissism, it just,

this is blowing my mind, like making,

connecting those dots.

And I think it's just, man,

this is such an important

thing for people to

understand and to talk about.

This is really, really important.

I hope, uh, you know,

for the female audience out there, um,

the different way we were

raised and obviously I'm not condoning it,

advocating for it.

It's just, it is what it is.

Um, one important,

really crucial thing that I

wanted to talk about is,

is the male white privilege

in the church.

And it's really, really there.

And it causes a lot of

arrogance and naivety and ignorance.

And it's really strong in the church.

And so let's talk about privilege.

A good example is we've all

had parents or grandparents that maybe,

you know,

say something racist or out of

touch and they don't see

their own privilege or they expect,

you know, that race, you know, whatever,

you know,

they go down that route and it's

clear that you can see their privilege.

Well,

all men raised in the church have that.

And we don't even know it.

And it comes from, for example,

let's say you are dating

someone who's not your same race.

And I know this is a harsh example,

but for women,

you can kind of begin to

see you're dating someone

who's not in your race and

you assume their reality

and their experiences and

their privileges and their

problems are the exact same as yours.

That's really naive and

really destructive.

And you are going to have a lot of issues.

All right.

And unfortunately,

the way the church is set

up and the patriarchy and everything,

men were born and raised

with that sense of

entitlement where not only

do we think we are superior than you.

quote I wanted,

but we're blind to the fact

that your experience is far

different than ours.

We think your experience is

the same as ours, which is just dumb.

That would be like assuming

someone of a different race,

their experience is different.

And that I think is how

different even a white male