Welcome to OrchestrateSales.com's Inside Sales Enablement Season 3 Enablement History. Where we hop in the Enablement Time machine and explore the past, present, and future of the elevation of a profession.

On ISEs3 Episode 12, Erich Starrett is joined by Dr. Shawn Fowler, whom he originally met when Shawn was VP, Sales Enablement (a true cross-functional #Orchestrator) at SalesLoft, and a gracious host of his first executive board meeting as President of the Atlanta Revenue Enablement Society back in early 2020. Before then, Dr. Fowler had been the World Wide Director of Enablement & Learning for IBM, and is now a Partner in his own sales strategy and sales enablement consulting venture: RevenueReady.

Highlights from the episode include...

PAST:

⌛️ Shawn "stumbled" into the profession working as the first services salesperson for Silverpop - essentially selling desired business outcomes. The SVP of sales, Todd McCormick, announced he was hiring a head of sales enablement and the hiring manager Drew Pronté said "hey, the CEO said that you should probably be the guy."

⌛️ He didn't know what sales enablement was. At the time he was pursuing a PhD in educational psychology so he combined what he learned from working as a sales engineer and as a services salesperson with what he knew about how psychology of learning works ...and he found himself implementing their first ever Sales Enablement program.

⌛️ His first Sales Enablement event was hosted by SiriusDecisions in Atlanta. "I was thinking we need to start something where we do that on a regular basis. This was easily the most valuable thing that I've done in the last six months."

⌛️ "Getting a seat at the table was probably the biggest factor in helping me be successful in sales enablement."

⌛️ Silverpop was purchased shortly thereafter by IBM when he then developed and executed their global expansion go-to-market plan. "I had the opportunity to see what it looks like in a much bigger level. IBM is basically a handful of multi billion dollar companies all put together. And I was part of one of those multi billion dollar companies inside of it. I got to see how these really big enterprise complex sales work, how you have to enable people across multiple different continents."

⌛️ Shaw was responsible for internal sales enablement including customer service and sales engineers and external - partner enablement - as well. "I think it makes a lot of sense, honestly, when you are in that position you have the opportunity to identify and eliminate a lot of the organizational issues that negatively affects your customer and that negatively affect the team as well."

PRESENT:

💼 Dr. Fowler diagnosed a few challenges that Sales Enablement faces today:

🩺 "I think there's not enough sharing of best practices"

🩺 "The quality of sales enablement as a profession has gone down pretty dramatically in the last five years."

1 - A lot of heads of sales are hearing from their investors that they need sales enablement but there was a period of time where I don't think a lot of them really knew what it meant.

2 - Heads of sales aren't always great at hiring enablement. Recognizing talent can be difficult.

3 - There is a lot of fluff. There was a period of time where sales was a lot easier and there's an entire generation of people who are in sales enablement who didn't have to figure out how to build a better machine. They could get away with adding more people to the machine and adding revenue by doing that. With venture capital drying up there's a much bigger focus on productivity. In order to achieve productivity per rep, you have to build a better machine.

🩺 The Doc offers REMEDIES to these challenges.

💼 Shawn shares a sample dive into RevenueReady's Customer Journey Workshops and parallel playbook creation approach.

💼 The power of a bottom-up approach, involving Sales Managment / the front line in the problem framing and in the solution process. A top-down only approach lacks the tactical information from the field needed to correctly identify and frame the problem, make good decisions, and design a solid solution. It also increases adoption because the front lines were involved in shaping it.

💼 In order to succeed you must both design an effective intervention, and then execute the reinforcement required to drive real change.

💼 "Sales (Revenue) Enablement is the change management arm of revenue." WGLL shoutout to Hillary Headlee who exemplified this at Zoom, having owned both global Ops AND Enablement ...during the height of Covid! And now she's doing it at the global Advisory Leader, Growth Team @ Insight Partners

for 500-700 companies.

💼 Interview advice for Enablement: Focus on the first 90 days through the lens of the CRO. Have the attitude that you will onboard as if you are planning to be in the top 10-15% of their sales team.

FUTURE:

🤖 There's increasing recognition of the role of enablement in change management and increasing recognition of the need for an explicit change managing function in organizations. At least in more successful companies, that's what what enablement is going to be seen as.

🤖 Increased focus on frontline managers on both the new and existing sales side of the house, because the reality is everything lives or dies with the frontline manager.

🤖 AI is going to evolve and facilitate some things. The power of artificial intelligence to comb through, for instance, the thousands of minutes that are produced on a weekly basis in Gong or SalesLoft or whatever, and distill that down into insights or into moments that everyone should take notice of can be really powerful when it comes to training, coaching, and identifying what works.

Please click 👇🏻, subscribe 📲, listen 🎧 ...and 🎙️ join the conversation! 

ORCHESTRATE Sales!

Erich

#RevenueEngine #DigitalTransformation

#RevenueEnablement

#AiCuriousHumanEnthusiast

Mentioned in this episode:

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Hello everyone, and welcome to Inside Sales Enablement,

2

Season Three, Enablement History.

3

And on today's episode, I

am so excited to have Dr.

4

Sean Fowler himself on the show.

5

He is an Atlantan I met him through

sales loft who was actually an incredible

6

sponsor of the sales enablement society

way before I was even a part of it and

7

they're near and dear to my heart as

a company and They, not only put on

8

an amazing conference rainmaker back

in my earlier days Where I learned so

9

much from sean and his peers and the

amazing people that they attracted but

10

they also hosted our first executive

board session when I became president

11

of the sales enablement society.

12

So Sean, you and sales loft are

a part of my enablement history,

13

and I thank you for that.

14

And I'm so glad that you are in my

present and hopefully future as well.

15

So

16

Dr. Shawn Fowler: That's awesome Erich.

17

Thank you.

18

I'm happy to be here today.

19

Be here today.

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Erich Starrett: Dr.

21

Fowler was the worldwide director

of enablement and learning for

22

this little blue chip company

called IBM back in the day.

23

That technology mecca, which informed him,

I'm sure, landing at Sales Loft and being

24

the vice president of sales enablement.

25

And now is a partner in revenue ready.

26

Sean is one of the few folks that

I've met that truly, embodies this

27

idea of enablement orchestration.

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Seeing how he interacted with everyone

in the company, he truly ran a cross

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functional enablement business within

a business at sales loft, which is

30

one of the three founding positions

of the sales enablement society.

31

And he had folks assigned doing different

flavors of enablement within the company.

32

And he's been a part of elevating the

profession from his days back in IBM,

33

whether or not enablement was a thing.

34

Sean, I'm going to hand

the mic over to you.

35

Finally.

36

Thanks for being patient and

letting me wax poetic for a minute

37

Dr. Shawn Fowler: Yeah, man.

38

Thank you.

39

I'm really excited to be

talking to you today..

40

RevenueReady is it's been

a long time in the making.

41

I first had the idea for the

company before I joined SalesLoft.

42

Actually, if SalesLoft had not

offered me a job, I think I probably

43

would have started the company then.

44

But I don't think I would

have been As good at it.

45

So remedy ready is basically

a sales strategy and sales

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enablement consulting company.

47

We work primarily with B to B

sass organizations, typically

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series a to B and then on up.

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We've got some public companies

who are customers as well.

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And we basically are trying to.

51

Remove the risk of sales execution

from your company strategy.

52

There's a lot of reasons

a company can fail.

53

Sales execution should not be one of them.

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So that's what we focus on.

55

Erich Starrett: And what

about revenue operations.

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Dr. Shawn Fowler: We do

lightweight revenue operations.

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Like we've got some

reasonable rev ops jobs.

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You have to be good at enablement.

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I think, you have to really

understand the data, how to pull

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the data, which data is right for

which situation, things like that.

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But when it gets beyond light revenue

operations, we pull other people in.

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Typically we stay in our lane.

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Erich Starrett: Makes a lot of sense.

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Question number one, Sean.

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What do the words sales

enablement mean to you?

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And when did you first hear them?

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Dr: Yeah, I answered

the second part first.

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I started my entire

career was an accident.

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That's the first thing to point out.

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Erich Starrett: Sounds like my life.

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I love it.

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Dr: I was a, I was at a

company called silver pop.

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I was doing I was doing training.

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So I got hired to be a to train customers,

to be on the customer training team, and

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I mostly got hired to do the technical

parts of the training process because

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I have a programming background.

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So I was handling like the API

training and stuff like that.

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Like the nerdier stuff.

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And I done that for a couple of

years, went into sales engineering.

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Really enjoyed sales engineering.

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At some point they decided to hire

their first services salesperson.

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So I became the first

services salesperson.

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I had a quota that was just services

I had to attach to, new logo deals.

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And really leveled up a lot as a

salesperson during that brief period of

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time, because when you sell services,

you are literally selling outcomes.

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That's it.

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That's all you can sell.

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So you have to really get deep on

understanding what their desired goals

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are, why they can't reach those goals

right now, and helping to paint the

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picture of what it's gonna look like

once you help them become successful.

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We had a newer SVP of sales.

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And he announced in a meeting that he

was hiring the head of sales enablement.

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I was actually coaching a friend

to maybe apply for that role.

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And the hiring manager drew Pronte.

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One of the best managers I've ever had.

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He came to me and was like, Hey, the CEO

said that you should probably be the guy.

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So are you interested?

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I applied.

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I didn't know what sales enablement was.

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I didn't know it was a thing I had

to put together a presentation for

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like how I would handle the sales

enablement role at the time I was

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getting my PhD in educational psychology.

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So I just took what I learned

from working as a sales engineer

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and as a services salesperson and

combined it with what I knew about

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how psychology of learning works.

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And put it together, got the job

and then had to figure it all

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out as I went along at the time.

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That was 2013 probably

is when I got started.

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. Erich Starrett: So that is pre sales

enablement society post Forrester

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definition, starting to officially see it

clearly as a position and a function or

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else it wouldn't have been posted for you.

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Dr: Yeah.

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Shortly after I took

the role of silver pop.

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It was pretty clear to me.

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I didn't know what I was doing it.

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I remember we had a contract with

Serious Decisions, who is, I think

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they're owned by Forrester now.

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So at the time it was

just Serious Decisions.

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They focused primarily on marketing.

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And we had a contract with them and

I had the opportunity to go to a

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sales enablement event in Atlanta.

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There were other sales enablement

practitioners there, and it was incredible

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because there were other people,

some of them knew things I didn't.

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Most of us were all trying

to figure out the same thing.

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Serious decisions, had

some ideas around it.

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It was like super useful.

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And I remember leaving that event.

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And thinking I think we need

to start something where we

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do that on a regular basis.

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This was easily the most valuable

thing that I've done in the

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last six months, you know?

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But I was trying to get a PhD at the time.

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I had two small kids, had a full time

job, like I had, a lot of stuff going

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on, but I was happy that they were

just other people who were dealing

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with the same problems that I was, and

they were trying to find a way forward.

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It was useful to meet other people

who are doing the same things.

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Most of my mentors were actually people

that I worked directly with though.

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I've been fortunate to have had some

really good bosses at Silverpop.

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My boss, the head of rail ops

and enablement was Drew Pronte.

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And he reported to our SVP of sales,

Todd McCormick, both of those guys,

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I think had gone through both PGI and

career builder, if I remember correctly.

142

And so those were really

good sales organizations.

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If you're in Atlanta, there was a

period of time where most of the

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people that you knew were probably

part of that diaspora, and so

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Erich Starrett: That is

a doctor word, diaspora.

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I'm going to have to look

that one up afterwards.

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I love it.

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Dr. Shawn Fowler: Getting a seat

at the table was probably the

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biggest factor in helping me be

successful in sales enablement.

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I had bosses who gave me a seat

at the table early on., Todd would

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pull us both in and be like, Hey,

here's what I'm seeing with the team.

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What do you think's going on here?

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And we would look at the data and

we would talk to the management and

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we would try to figure out what the

solution was and we would try stuff.

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And I didn't understand how things

operated at that strategic level.

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Until I got into that role and the fact

that I got to sit there and at first

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I didn't provide much value candidly.

158

I could give them context based

on my experiences in the field,

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which I had a lot of, but I didn't

understand the physics of sales, right?

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And I learned all those

things from working with them.

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And then we were acquired by IBM and

I had the opportunity to see what it

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looks like in a much bigger level.

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I was part of a business unit that

it's IBM's basically a handful of multi

164

billion dollar companies all put together.

165

And I was part of one of those multi

billion dollar companies inside of it.

166

Our business unit was, and I got to see

how these really big enterprise complex

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sales work, how you have to, Enable people

across multiple different continents.

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By the time I left, I was responsible

for both internal sales enablement

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and partner enablement as well.

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And the partner ecosystem is

really important if you're at IBM.

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And so you have to really distill down

what those value propositions are for

172

the different products that you have,

who the personas are from the buyer

173

perspective, what the challenges are that

they solve to make it clear to everyone.

174

What they should be looking for and

how to tell the most effective story.

175

Erich Starrett: Great backstory, what

I just heard you say is you're actually

176

the first person on the show that has

said, I was doing partner enablement.

177

We'll get to a minute, the shift from

sales enablement to revenue enablement,

178

but part of that is encompassing partners

for sure, which I've always seen part

179

of it and customer service, but you

were doing it all the way back to IBM.

180

Dr. Shawn Fowler: Yeah, even in the first

role at silver pop, I had both new and

181

existing sales under my purview, right?

182

So I had the new sales team, like the AEs,

the SDRs, the sales engineers, but I also

183

had the account management team, the CS

184

And I think it makes a lot of sense,

honestly, when you are in that

185

position where you've got both,

you New sales and existing sales.

186

You have the opportunity to

identify and eliminate a lot of the

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organizational issues that negatively

affects your customer and that

188

negatively affect the team as well.

189

So I like having that opportunity.

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Erich Starrett: Agreed.

191

And in the pre-show, we were talking

a little bit about how important it

192

is to have either A, failed yourself

in approaches and or B, been the at

193

a place or walked alongside others

who have been through a failure

194

convert it to wisdom, and that's

where good enablement comes from.

195

Through that lens.

196

It sounds like almost natural

presupposition to do those things that a

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room of 100 people were just starting to

think about and I would argue still aren't

198

being fully executed in enablement today.

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What led you there?

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Dr. Shawn Fowler: There's a few

things that we could unpack there.

201

I'll start with the, what led you there?

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Like most of everything that I've

learned how to do, first off, when

203

you talk to anybody who's been

doing enablement for a while, almost

204

everybody does the same thing.

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The reality is there's a handful

of things that work, and we all

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make enough mistakes until we

figure out those things that work.

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The problem is, I think there's not enough

sharing of best practices, candidly.

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That's 1 thing because.

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When you figure out what works, you

have other people who are just other

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companies, other CROs, other heads of

enablement who are trying to figure out

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the same thing, solve the same problems.

212

And most of them go through

and make the same mistakes that

213

other people have already made.

214

So that's a pretty common issue.

215

There's a second factor here,

though, that I think is interesting.

216

I think that the quality of sales

enablement as a professional has

217

gone down pretty dramatically

in the last five years.

218

In fact, I think the quality of

sales enablement has gone down as

219

it's become increasingly prominent

because You There's a few reasons.

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Number one is I think a lot of heads of

sales know they need sales enablement.

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They're hearing from their investors

that they need sales enablement.

222

But there was a period of time

where I don't think a lot of

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them really knew what it meant.

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And over again, even now we'll talk

to heads of sales who are looking

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to hire a head of sales enablement

or their only sales enablement hire.

226

And we're like, Hey, what

do you want them focused on?

227

And they really have one

or two projects in mind.

228

But then when you ask what you want them

to do after that they're not sure they

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have immediate needs of things they want

done, but in an ongoing basis, they're

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not quite sure what that should be right.

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If the CRO isn't clear about what they

want the head of enablement to do,

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and the head of enablement's not going

to be clear about it unless they've

233

done it before and they know what

they should be focused on and they

234

can earn that credibility with the CRO

and the rest of the leadership team.

235

And that's a big, if that requires a

lot of things that you have to have

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done in order to be in that position.

237

The second thing is I think

heads of sales aren't always

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great at hiring and enablement.

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Ahead of sales probably was an SDR,

probably was an AE, probably was a

240

manager, was a second line manager, right?

241

They've done those jobs before and

they've hired for those jobs, probably

242

dozens of times, sometimes hundreds

of times, they maybe hire two, three

243

sales and people over the course of a

lifetime, like that's so recognizing

244

talent can be difficult as well.

245

And then there's a final factor, which

is I think there's a lot of fluff.

246

Sales is never easy, but comparatively

there was a period of time in the

247

mid to late 2010s where there was

a ton of venture capital at play.

248

So lots of people were hiring,

it was easier to get results.

249

There was a good economy.

250

There were a lot of frankly,

SaaS companies who were just all

251

buying stuff from each other.

252

And so sales was a lot easier.

253

And I think there's an entire

generation of people who are in sales

254

enablement, who didn't have to figure

out how to build a better machine.

255

They could get away with adding

more people to the machine and

256

adding revenue by doing that.

257

And now venture capital

has dried up a lot.

258

People aren't hiring as much.

259

There's a much bigger

focus on productivity.

260

Productivity per rep in particular, in

order to achieve productivity per rep,

261

you have to build a better machine.

262

And I think that's the thing that everyone

really needs to be focused on right now.

263

It means you really need to understand

the market that you're selling to.

264

It means you really need to

understand where the friction

265

points are, both for your customers

and for your internal teams.

266

And you really need to figure out how

you optimize every step in the process.

267

And that takes a Domain expertise

that takes background knowledge, and

268

it also takes strong organizational

and communication skills so that

269

you can affect the change management

that's required to get results.

270

Erich Starrett: That was phenomenal.

271

So to read that back a little bit, there's

not enough focus on strategically thinking

272

about the cross functional revenue engine.

273

That first position that they're a

are different flavors of enablement

274

and be that it to be effective.

275

It needs to be run cross

functionally, and they didn't use

276

the word but and strategically.

277

So there's kind of two sides of the coin.

278

And neither side is in good repair.

279

Meaning the folks who are hiring for

enablement don't necessarily know what

280

that role does strategically other

than tactically coming in and doing a

281

project or two that has a beginning,

middle, end, and is fixing something.

282

And number two, you don't have the

talent pool that has that ability going

283

back to chief productivity officer now

that we need productivity per person.

284

And it's not just.

285

It's not just throwing

additional heads at it.

286

Ramping those heads up as quickly as

possible, which is also an element

287

of productivity, but it's a there's

a lot more strategy in creating more

288

from less than just bringing in more

so that does that land about right?

289

Dr. Shawn Fowler: Yeah..

290

And I , I feel like I'm dogging

on sales enablement practitioners.

291

I'm not, I don't think

people are bad necessarily.

292

I just think that they

didn't have to be good.

293

So they didn't learn how to do some

of the hard things that you have to

294

do to really build a better machine.

295

, I think that two years from now,

the people who are still in sales

296

enablement will be pretty damn good

at what they do because they will have

297

had to have figured it out, right?

298

Erich Starrett: I'm with you.

299

What I'm hearing is not negativity

per se, it's opportunity.

300

Dr. Shawn Fowler: Yes.

301

That is a great phrasing.

302

Erich Starrett: Thank you.

303

There is opportunity here.

304

One question in your current business,

how do you address the, we'll call it the

305

buyer side of sales enablement, right?

306

How do you help your current clients

and maybe that will inform some

307

folks out there listening who are

CRO CMO, even chief strategy officer.

308

We've got Tim Reister over at corporate

visions is a CSO with enablement reporting

309

to him, which is one of the interesting

implementations I've seen of enablement.

310

How do you get your clients up

to speed to address that need

311

and harvest that opportunity?

312

Dr. Shawn Fowler: there's

a couple of things.

313

When it comes to like the customer

journey and how customers buy and

314

eliminating friction for them.

315

One of our most common initial projects

with customers is a customer journey

316

workshop, because if you haven't

really sat down with all of the major

317

stakeholders involved internally, And

intentionally designed to process,

318

you probably have massive gaps in

what we uncover over and over again

319

is especially during the handoffs,

320

Everybody thinks somebody else is

doing something and nobody's doing it.

321

Or they think somebody else

should be doing something and

322

there's not agreement on that.

323

Or there's a whole bunch of data

that's needed for one part of

324

the process that's not created

by the other part of the process.

325

And so you have these moments

where there's a lack of alignment

326

or a lack of insight that occurs

throughout the entire process that

327

negatively affects the customer.

328

And so you have these situations

where let's say I go to a web form

329

and I'm reading about these like

value propositions essentially that

330

can solve the problems that I have.

331

I fill out the web form

and then I get a response.

332

And somebody calls me six

times while I'm in meetings.

333

And finally I pick up and

I'm like, Oh, this is great.

334

Yes, let's talk.

335

I would like to solve this problem.

336

And then I have a conversation and they're

like, what's the problem that you have?

337

Okay let me ask you some pretty demeaning

questions about whether you're important

338

enough to It sounds like somebody's

saying are your mommy and daddy home?

339

And then, they're like, okay, it

sounds like we can definitely help you.

340

Let me put you on the phone with

somebody else who can help you.

341

That sucks like now I, like I just filled

out a form Oh, let's schedule something.

342

Let's go.

343

Like, why do I have to talk to?

344

And then you hop on the call with the

AE and let's say the AE does a fantastic

345

job and they show you a great demo

and they figure out what your projects

346

problems are and they help you prioritize.

347

All that stuff and the deal closes and

then you get introduced to somebody else.

348

And you have to have all the same

damn conversations again, all the same

349

.

As a buyer.

350

This is what will really open your eyes.

351

I spent years as a buyer.

352

And I was like, this sucks.

353

This sucks.

354

This sucks.

355

Like all the different things that I

felt as a buyer made me a much better

356

salesperson, but what it was like to

go through those steps in the process.

357

And so we really pay a lot of attention

to what happens during the transitions.

358

And a lot of what we focus on, we do these

workshops, Is creating the disagreement

359

that is required for actual agreement

and creating a safe space where we

360

can moderate those disagreements and

come to a conclusion that I don't know

361

if you're familiar with the Patrick

Lencioni stuff, Disagree & Commit.

362

Like at some point, whoever's is making

the call in the room has to make the call.

363

There's going to be disagreement,

but everybody understands why that

364

decision was made and everybody's

committed to walking out and executing.

365

The steps necessary to bring this

desired customer journey into reality.

366

It's a workshop typically, right?

367

Like a two day.

368

Yeah.

369

Erich Starrett: A role play on steroids.

370

It's a flavor of whenever someone comes

to me with a problem, I'm like, great,

371

bring it, but bring a solution or three,

at least the beginnings of it, it sounds

372

like that's the same kind of thing you

do in that room is we're not going to

373

get it perfect, but can everyone nod

their head that this is the path forward.

374

Back to this idea that there's

opportunity for enablement, How do I?

375

Sean get up to speed in a way that I can

come in and pick up where you left off

376

And be that strategic sales enablement

revenue enablement partner in perpetuity.

377

Is there, what does that look like

other than failing a bunch learning

378

and, actually trying to meet that

bar of not just ramping up a whole

379

bunch of people, but taking what I've

got and bringing more productivity.

380

Dr. Shawn Fowler: Yeah.

381

So there's a couple of things we focus on.

382

Number one, we document

everything that we do and we do.

383

We do like a playbook playbooks are great.

384

I understand.

385

I've written so many playbooks in my life.

386

Almost somebody reads the playbook, but

it's useful to have it because sometimes

387

you do have to reference stuff in it.

388

So the people can just take a

quick look, like a cheat sheet.

389

This is what I'm supposed to do

at this stage in the process.

390

This is the way it works.

391

And if it changes, you have to update it.

392

So we work on creating governance.

393

For change, usually when we do

these projects so that there's

394

a process in place by which

people can actually make changes.

395

The second thing, and this is actually

the most important thing is we

396

build as much as possible, the best

practices directly into the process.

397

So that as you execute the

process, you are actually

398

improving the process as well.

399

And it takes time to do that,

but it's really important.

400

The third thing is we involve

the managers and the reps in the

401

creation of the processes themselves.

402

This is very often what happens is you

have these top down approaches to a

403

sales process or a top down approach

to messaging or a top down approach

404

to negotiation or skill development

or whatever you want it to be, right?

405

And it falls flat.

406

It falls flat for a couple of reasons.

407

Number one, When you do it top down,

a lot of times you don't actually

408

have the tactical information you

need from the field to make good

409

decisions, to design a good solution.

410

In fact, a lot of times you haven't

correctly framed the problem.

411

And if you haven't correctly framed

the problem, you're never going

412

to find the right solution, right?

413

So we make sure we involve managers

and reps in the problem framing and

414

in the solution process, because

that's going to give us a much better

415

picture of what's actually happening

and what the real problems are.

416

It's going to give us

a much better solution.

417

Plus.

418

When it's time to roll that

solution out, we've already

419

had all the holes poked in it.

420

We spent weeks having meetings

where people were poking holes and

421

we're iterating and we're iterating.

422

So it's a really good product that

those people are now going to champion.

423

Those people help design it.

424

If you get the right people in the room,

you've got really powerful champions

425

who can go out and get other people.

426

To adopt it, the managers are

already aware of what's going

427

on because they help shape it.

428

Plus we do extensive manager training

before we ever roll anything else out.

429

And then we do manager

reinforcement training.

430

So we create these methods, these avenues

for reinforcement as part of the project.

431

So that for the next month or

quarter, there's going to be

432

people who are actually working to

drive adoption of those changes.

433

And the reality is the project

itself, the intervention itself is

434

usually about one fifth of the amount

of time it takes to get results.

435

The other four fifths is all the stuff

you do before the project and all the

436

stuff you do after the projects to create

alignment, to get buy in, to design

437

a really effective intervention, and

then to actually do the reinforcement

438

that's required to drive real change.

439

Erich Starrett: We've got a listening

audience here of enablement practitioners.

440

Is it a, "and we recommend getting a sales

enablement professional" at the end of

441

that if they don't have someone on staff.

442

Or is it a, pretty much we've given

you the engine you need to maintain,

443

just keep doing what you're doing.

444

Dr. Shawn Fowler: A lot of

our customers have existing

445

sales enablement staff, right?

446

It's just, two or three.

447

And for this project, you need,

three or four more for six months,

448

like that's the reality is there's

certain pieces of infrastructure that

449

are really heavy to put in place.

450

Or you need to move quickly to get

these changes in place and your team

451

doesn't have the bandwidth to do it.

452

Like those are the most common

situations we get involved in.

453

If we are working with someone who

doesn't have sales enablement at all,

454

usually there's a chief of staff or

a head of rev ops, or somebody who is

455

a manager who we use as our primary

point of contact, who's the change

456

agent internally in those situations.

457

But we pretty much always recommend that

they hire someone to own an enablement

458

over the long term, because if nobody

owns it, it's not going to get done.

459

Erich Starrett: Outstanding.

460

And therein lies, I think the

answer to my question, which is.

461

Hey everybody out there in enablement

land if you feel woefully unequipped to

462

do all of those things that dr Fowler

is sharing bring on RevenueReady because

463

you're going to be part Seriously,

you're going to be part of that team

464

that the best way to get trained is to

walk alongside He and his advisors at

465

revenue ready and learn alongside them.

466

And then you do that in perpetuity, right?

467

That would be the answer.

468

There's not a secret place to go off and

study or at least currently a place to go

469

and interact and get those best practices.

470

Dr. Shawn Fowler: I think you should

design our sales pitch, Erich!

471

Yeah.

472

This is actually an important

thing to talk about though,

473

because I've been in this situation

before as a head of enablement.

474

It's hard to get headcount.

475

It is very hard to get headcount, but

the reality is your boss wants results.

476

Like the company needs results.

477

And one of the things that I think

a lot of companies are realizing

478

right now is because things

are, I've gotten harder to sell.

479

" Your ability to thrive as

a company depends directly

480

on your ability to change.

481

To effectively manage change.

482

The companies that make it are the

ones who can accommodate the changes

483

as they evolve in the market, they

have change management functions

484

built in to their strategy and that's

what sales enablement really is.

485

Sales enablement is the change

management arm of revenue."

486

That's what it is.

487

And if you don't realize that you're

never going to hire the right people.

488

You're never going to give them

the seat at the table they need.

489

But if you do realize that, then

whenever you have to change pricing or

490

your competition got better or whatever

it is you have to accommodate, you've

491

got this ability to evolve quickly

and rapidly and roll with the punches.

492

Erich Starrett: Sean, you just took

the words right out of my mouth.

493

Sales enablement, revenue

enablement is the change

494

management of the revenue engine.

495

What you and your team come in and

do, what a good solid RevOps team does

496

from the ground up, but Hillary Headlee

over at Insight Partners, and informed

497

by her having run, at zoom, both

rev ops and sales enablement, right?

498

And now she's doing it

for five, 700 companies.

499

That's what good looks like.

500

It's that incubated in a well

thought out strategic cross

501

functional engine where all the

seats of the table are represented.

502

And then having an enablement

professional who can take that.

503

Be a change manager and be the

bidirectional voice of that entire

504

engine out to sales out to now partners

and to customer service and back in.

505

And that's the important part.

506

And a lot of times that back

end part's not happening.

507

And another opportunity I see,

and I'd love to hear your thoughts

508

for Sales or revenue enablement

is getting in the trenches, right?

509

So you can be the voice of sales and

the customer and bring that back in

510

and now you're really cooking, right?

511

Dr. Shawn Fowler: It's nice to be in the

industry for a while because you meet

512

a lot of people and I end up talking

to a lot of like people who are newer

513

in their careers or like mid career.

514

Who are getting their first kind

of, I'm the only enablement person

515

opportunity is where I'm the first

head of enablement opportunities.

516

And something they ask a lot is what

should I have this interview with the

517

CRO, it's my last interview tomorrow

what do you think I should focus on?

518

And the thing I always say is the

first 90 days, like really, you really

519

need to think through what you're

going to do in your first 90 days.

520

How are you going to

structure your first 90 days?

521

And one of the things that I've always

focused on whenever I've joined a company

522

is I need to being in the top 10 sales

reps, I need to learn enough that if I

523

need to go sell this, I can go sell it.

524

I understand the market.

525

I understand the product.

526

I understand the problems solve.

527

I the competition does.

528

Cause if you can't do that, why should

anybody listen to what you have to say?

529

That's just the reality.

530

Like you need to be able to go have the,

you don't have to be the best, right?

531

But you should probably be in the top

10 to 15 percent if you had to be.

532

Erich Starrett: And back to role play

man If you can legit spar with the

533

top 10 of the company You're going

to provide such an amazing service,

534

it's getting out on the court with

those better than you, making you

535

better and you making them better.

536

Dr. Shawn Fowler: And if they have a Gong

or a SalesLoft or a Clari I guess Chorus

537

Clari, whatever, if they have that you

have no excuse not to be able to do that.

538

That's straight up.

539

Like you can sit there and listen to

the calls that the best sales reps made.

540

You can listen to the

calls that people wash.

541

You can listen to the calls where you

got the, you can listen to all that.

542

And if you do two a day for a month,

you can go a long way towards really

543

understanding what works and what doesn't.

544

Erich Starrett: Awesome sean.

545

Let's shift to the move from sales

enablement to revenue enablement You

546

I'm curious what that means to you.

547

Dr. Shawn Fowler: First thing is I don't

know how much I care about the name change

548

because I think sometimes people just

use different words to sound different.

549

I do like the idea of sales enablement

truly being a revenue enablement.

550

But there's a good way and a

bad way for that to work out.

551

The good way is that they

actually have a seat at the table.

552

They're involved in the diagnosis

of the problems and coming up with a

553

strategy and frankly, prioritization.

554

Prioritization is really one of the

keys to success in enablement in that

555

they can actually help solve straight

up revenue problems, not just sales

556

problems, but it means that you need

to be resourced so that you have people

557

aligned to both of those leaders.

558

If there are separate leaders,

that's super important to me.

559

The bad way is it just slowly

evolves into L and D I don't

560

have anything against L and D.

561

I started my career in L and D.

562

But that's not what sales enablement is.

563

That's not what revenue

enablement should be.

564

And I see a lot of companies where it's

revenue enablement in name, but it's

565

glorified L and D and I don't think

that's the best use of enablement.

566

Erich Starrett: and back to

those founding flavors, they're

567

stuck in talent development only

and not thinking strategically?

568

Dr. Shawn Fowler: A lot of times

they don't have the domain expertise

569

to help shape the conversation

either in that situation.

570

You're just creating a bunch of trainings

that nobody ever takes or they take

571

it while they do their expenses, like

that's not going to move the needle.

572

Cool.

573

Erich Starrett: Wrapping up here.

574

I would love to hear Dr.

575

Sean Fowler the future.

576

Give us, we'll give you the final word.

577

Where are we headed?

578

You mentioned earlier that you can

see over the next couple years,

579

those who are really embodying

this spirit of a cross functional

580

sales or revenue enablement role.

581

What do you see about the future?

582

What are those opportunities

for our listening audience?

583

Dr. Shawn Fowler: I would hesitate

to forecast any farther than three

584

or four years out, honestly, but

585

I think there's increasing recognition

of the role of enablement in change

586

management and increasing recognition

of the need for an explicit change

587

managing function in organizations.

588

So I think at least in more

successful companies, that's what what

589

enablements going to be seen as right?

590

I think one of the things that's going

to incorporate is increased focus on

591

frontline managers on both the new

and existing sales side of the house,

592

because the reality is everything lives

or dies for the frontline manager.

593

If the frontline manager cannot

effectively execute the change, or if

594

they're not bought in, or if they don't

understand clearly why they're doing what

595

they're doing and how it aligns with the

company's strategy, it's not going to work

596

and you're literally wasting your time.

597

You're wasting everyone's time to try

to do anything unless they're bought

598

in and equipped to be successful.

599

I think people are beginning to see

that and I think there's going to be

600

a shift, frankly, from the field to

frontline managers in terms of resources.

601

Those are the two biggest things

I think are going to happen.

602

Erich Starrett: I think AI is going

to evolve and facilitate some things.

603

I know there's a lot of AI

coaching and stuff like that.

604

I don't love it.

605

Candidly, but I think the power

of artificial intelligence to comb

606

through, for instance, the thousands

of minutes that are produced on a

607

weekly basis in gong or sales loft or

whatever, and distill that down into

608

insights or into moments that everyone

should take notice of can be really

609

powerful when it comes to training,

coaching, and identifying what works

610

great place to land, Sean.

611

. Thanks for all that you've done

for the profession, for Atlanta

612

for that matter specifically.

613

Maybe we can even get you out to a

Revenue Enablement Society meeting

614

here and have you wax poetic on

some of these things and help people

615

better understand the opportunity.

616

Dr. Shawn Fowler: Only if

there's beer afterward.

617

Erich Starrett: Yeah, absolutely.

618

For sure.

619

That wouldn't be face to face

without a beer at the bar.

620

Any final words you'd like to share,

Sean, on your way out the door

621

here in the orchestrate section?

622

Dr. Shawn Fowler: This was just wonderful.

623

It was a fantastic opportunity

to talk to you, Eric.

624

I really enjoyed it.

625

Erich Starrett: you too, man.

626

Great to see your face.

627

And I'm so excited for our listening

audience to benefit from this.

628

Appreciate your time

and we'll see you soon

629

Dr. Shawn Fowler: Thanks a lot, man.

630

Take care.