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00:53 Introducing this episode’s topic and guest 03:31 Kerry's insights into her role within Mom's Against Racism and discusses the organization's mission and initiatives 05:49 MAR’s origin and founding motivations 13:54 The various forms and manifestations of racism in Canadian society 18:50 How members of Moms Against Racism are guided in unlearning racism 24:49 Kerry reflects on her upbringing, sharing how her mother's personal challenges and disconnection from her cultural identity left a void in her understanding of her own heritage 28:00 Kerry’s thoughts on Parenting Beyond Power 31:14 Kerry talks about which tools from the book resonated with her and if she's been able to use them 43:02 Why Kerry agreed to join the Culture Talks Panel Event 47:22 Jen’s commitment to addressing issues like White privilege and patriarchy, striving to make a positive impact 50:38 Kerry’s Ideas for Anti-Racist Actions for ParentsTranscripts
Hi, I'm Adrian in suburban Chicagoland. And this is Your Parenting Mojo with Jen Lumanlan. Jen is working on a series of episodes based on the challenges you are having with your child. From toothbrushing to sibling fighting, to the endless resistance to whatever you ask, Jen will look across all the evidence from thousands of scientific papers across a whole range of topics related to parenting and child development to help you see solutions to the issue you're facing that hadn't seen possible before. If you'd like a personalized answer to your challenge, just make a video if possible, or an audio clip if not, that's less than one minute long that describes what's happening, and email it to support@YourParentingMojo.com and listen out for your episode soon.
Jen Lumanlan:Hello, and welcome to the Your Parenting Mojo podcast. You're in for a very different kind of conversation today than the ones that we normally have on the show. When my book, Parenting Beyond Power, launched in September of 2023, I decided to go on a little mini book tour of the West Coast just to kick things off. And I started in Vancouver because there was a core group of listeners up there who really wanted me to come up there first. And I decided that I didn't want to just do the usual bookstore thing of going to sign books and read in bookstores. I wanted to convene panel events because I wanted to develop relationships with people who were on the ground doing work locally, and to bring some of the benefits of kind of being in community to those folks as well. And so I decided to convene a panel event in each of the main cities that I visited, and Kerry Cavers who leads Mom's Against Racism, Canada gracefully agreed to join the panel event in Vancouver. And so we had an event there, and then we kind of hit it off, and we decided to get together again. She lives in Victoria, but she had a couple of days until her ferry back. So we got together in one of her friends' gardens, for a very informal chat. And at the time, I didn't actually realize that this was going to be a podcast episode, I actually kind of thought we were mostly doing her a favor, because we could talk about her and her work, and that maybe we could cut those videos for her. And we could she could use them as a way to communicate the work that she's doing to funders. So I saw it mostly as a thank you to her for participating in the panel event.
Jen Lumanlan:And then once we actually got into the conversation, I realized just what a pot of gold that we had. And I wanted to share that with you. So we're releasing this as a formal episode, obviously, because I didn't think it was gonna be an episode, I went in with a very different set of questions I would have done otherwise. And I didn't really have the sort of take home messages that I would normally make sure that we have for you. So I followed up with Carrie afterwards. And she very kindly provided over delivered, as Carrie always does, with a quite a lengthy list of ways that you can begin to take anti-racist action in your life. So she wasn't able to record it for us. So I will go ahead and read it at the end of this episode. So sit back, enjoy the conversation, and I'll see you again at the end.
Jen Lumanlan:Hi, I'm Jen Lumanlan of the Your Parenting Mojo podcast. And yesterday in Vancouver, we had an awesome inaugural Cultural Talks Event and Kerry Cavers of Moms Against Racism was a panelist in that event. And we had so much fun, we decided we would come back and do another iteration today. So we're here to have a chat. Welcome Kerry. Great to see you.
Kerry Cavers:Thank you. It's good to be here.
Jen Lumanlan:So could you tell me maybe a little bit about who you are? What's Mom's Against Racism? What's the work you do?
Kerry Cavers:Ah, well, my name is Kerry Cavers. My pronouns are she/her/hers. And I am the founder of Moms Against Racism, Canada. So we are a nonprofit organization that has the mission to educate moms and anybody in a mothering role--so teachers, caregivers, educating them around anti-racism, decolonization, and cultural competence so that they can then have the tools and the support to dismantle racism within themselves and to bring that to their families and out into their community as well. So we've been around for three years. We're kind of a baby nonprofit ever growing. But we do have about 2500 members across Canada. And we're mostly an online community of people. And we do lots of great events. So we have coffee chats like this every month to be able to talk about things that have come up at home or at school and how do we address this? How do we talk to our kids about this? What kind of language can we use? And then we also have more community and taped events where we're we're building and those relationships and those connections with each other. So we both have BIPOC or Black Indigenous Moms of Color in the group as well as a large membership base of White moms who are in there wanting to do their own unlearning, as well. And so it's it's really unique community in that we are living those White, like the anti-oppression, anti-white supremacy values, and are really working hard to create a space that is safe for learning. And that people can lean in and be vulnerable and do that hard work.
Jen Lumanlan:So how did Moms Against Racism get started?
Kerry Cavers:That is a really great question. So kind of long answer. I grew up in a town that was very White. And I had the experience of being one of the ollies in my school and I experienced a you know, racism all throughout growing up, and some of them being more overt. So more in your face kind of things. And, like one of my first instance I tell this story is, when I was about seven or eight, I had gone to a birthday party. And so it was all you know, kids of the neighborhood and it's every kid's favorite part of a birthday is the birthday cake. And so I was really super excited to get a piece of birthday cake. And all of the kids were handed out a piece of cake except for me. And I asked the birthday, kiddo, you know, like, oh, you know, in my mind thinking, there's another cake that's gonna come. And I asked, you know, "Can I have this cake?" And they said, "No." And I asked, "Why?" And they say, "Well, you're Black." And, yeah, it was one of those things that like, at the time I being biracial, growing up with my mom, I didn't really fully understand what that meant. But what I took away was that: You're other, you're wrong. There's something wrong with you. And it wasn't until like a little bit later, that I started really understanding that division. And it makes sense, when you look at like the stages of development and racial identity that that that would be happening around that time for me. And so like other things to be living with my White mom, I had the paperboy who constantly told me that I was adopted to the point where I questioned my mom, if I was adopted, and for years, I wasn't confident in her response.
Kerry Cavers:And, you know, other things like that are coming out. I had some friends in high school who were a little bit older than me, so coming out of my classroom meeting up with them, and then one of them saying to me, oh, like, "We talked about you in English class today." What, what you mean? And they're like, "Oh, well, we're reading this book that has this Black character in it, and they're experiencing racism. And we were wondering, like, talking about what your experience might have been like. " And that was mortifying to me at that time, because I was like, I there's boys in that class that I like, why are they talking about me, but like, on a bigger scale, just to, to be objectified in that way, was really hard. And so that's kind of the basis of it. But for me, like the start, I should say, of how this organization started, but I just tried to fly under the radar. And just fit in as, as best as I could. And so I've always been open to talking about my experiences, but never really pushing the envelope until I had kids. Because everything changes when you have kids. And so my my partner, my husband, he is White, like White, White, and I realized that like for for us and his family, but a lot of comments we're gonna come. And because genetics are wild, you never know what your babies are gonna be born, presenting as we started having more conversations and I started having more conversations with the mom friends that I was collecting to. And as it turns out, our first is White presenting. And then I have three, my middle is Black presenting and my youngest is White presenting which pre like brings its own a wonderful, stranger random comments to our family. But in 2020, when George Floyd was murdered, I had a lot of my mom friends reached out to me. And they were starting to ask some deeper questions. And at the time, I don't know if it was like the weight of that intergenerational trauma, but it felt really heavy. And so I was like, you know, I want to be able to hold space for these conversations, because they're important conversations, but it's also really emotionally draining for me. So I'm just gonna go ahead and I'm going to start a little Facebook group, just for me, and like, 30 of my mom friends, no big deal. And then I only have to answer the question what so I was really trying to reduce my workload here and this. And so and then I went to bed, and I woke up the next day, and I had 140 people in the group. And it was a really pivotal moment, because I had some decisions to make.
Kerry Cavers:And so I decided, I was like, okay, you know, I've talked with groups this size before we can do this. And so I closed down the group to be private. And then there was a backup of 1500 people either requesting to join or being invited by their friends. And it felt like a real turning point. In this, it felt like, kind of the first time for me anyway, that people were taking it seriously. And we're ready to have these conversations. And so from there, I then like very early on, was asked to speak on a panel about racism in education. And then we were part of an advocacy campaign, a letter writing campaign, and the membership just grew. And so it was, in, you know, with the words of Bob Ross, it was a happy little accident that Morris started. And it really has been this beautiful, organic process, which I think has lent has allowed us to really embody those anti-oppressive principles and values in the space because all of the programs that we take on is based upon our volunteers. We're 100% volunteer run on moms, educators, like the busiest people in the world, all people who have so much conditioning to unlearn. And so we do it in a very messy way. We do it in a very loving, messy way, in that you have capacity to do this great, but we're not we don't want you to burn out. So long. I'm long winded. But that is how MAR came to be. So I really feel that it's just me kind of going along for the ride with how things developed.
Jen Lumanlan:Yeah, I want to come back to that messiness. But firstly, I just want to acknowledge we're in Vancouver, right? Yeah, in Canada. So as far as I know, Canada never had slavery. Is that right?
Kerry Cavers:That is incorrect.
Jen Lumanlan:That is incorrect. Okay, great. So, um, so obviously, in the US, we had a long history with it. And I think that we can trace a lot of the challenges we have today back to that, and I think a lot of Americans, if I can sort of put myself in that shoes, is we, we look at candidates and we're like, ah, you know, they don't have the same challenges that we do. And so, from what I understand from having been here for a little bit, that that is not necessarily the case. It just shows up differently. So can you help us understand how does it show up here?
Kerry Cavers:Yeah, most definitely. So there is that dynamic and even up here in Canada, we're like, well, at least we're not the US right, which becomes a protective strategy from actually having to look and do any of the work. So for us, are Canada is that we're very polite. Canadians are very polite, and we were conditioned like my generation empire that we are as a multiculturalism haven right. We are inclusive of all people, which is not true. And we kind of have this feeling that we just fell into racism as it is but when you actually look back, our our nation was founded upon and built upon genocide of indigenous peoples, enslavement of African people, the the like with building the railway like the tiniest Pentax exclusionary immigration laws. And so we, we're just kind of quieter about it. And one of the things to remember too, is that the US has 10 times the population that Canada has. So almost all of the people who live within Canada could fit within California. So even just by volume, there's more happening in the US, which seems more egregious. But we have the same kinds of things here, too. We have, you know, Black people who are disproportionately targeted by the police. We have wellness checks, that actually end up in situations of death for indigenous communities. And we have, you know, I think it's right now the number is 25 different First Nations that don't have clean drinking water. And this is all like policy type stuff. So a lot of it is it's through legislation. So a lot of people are like, wow, that's just how it is. But we then go back and think about, like, well, who wrote these policies and legislation, and what was their lens, and in so much of it was written to benefit those first European settlers who came over.
Kerry Cavers:So for us, like with enslavement, we had like much of the people who came over and that were enslaved, did end up in the US. And then we have this story of like, Oh, we're the hero with, like, the underground railway. But what actually happened was many people migrated up, and just found very similar conditions here. And we were like, there's where, like, you say, we're in Vancouver. So Demographically speaking, we have more people of the African diaspora on the east coast of Canada, because of that slave trade route. And the it becomes less and less Black, the more and more west you get, and which is an interesting dynamic, because then racism shows up very differently, province by province. So we have like micro invite environments. And so the experience is very, so from mine of more polite racism, I think, like, for me, the most overt violence that I've experienced was we had our van keyed, because myself and another racialized person, I suspect, we're seeing exiting the van. And so someone keyed our van. But there's still like, things aren't necessarily getting better. And people are becoming more and more brazen, with their racism and, and their views. And so my concern for physical safety continues to increase for myself, for my kids. So we're not, we're not that much different.
Jen Lumanlan:Yeah. Okay. And so you mentioned sort of this messy, and learning, which I think a lot of it has to happen with White people, right? We're the ones who have to do the bulk of the unlearning. And so what does that look like when somebody's associated with Moms Against Racism, right, when they joined the group? What what happens? What what are we unlearning? And how are we unlearning it?
Kerry Cavers:It's yeah, so I agree with you, I think there's work that White people need to do in their unlearning. And then there's work that racialized people need to do to so I'll talk about that in a sec. But when with my like, there's, there's a lot of people who do this work in various different ways. And, you know, I had mentioned yesterday, I'm not a frontlines person, I'm not a holding the same process person. I don't like crowds. And so but I love the people who are those people that can go and do that. And that's the way that they want to do this work. When I say that, because there are a lot of racialized people who hold the opinion that we that we need to be more aggressive with White people on this that we don't want to coddle them or be mindful of their feelings. And I can respect where they're coming from because they they have intergenerationally within their own lifetimes, experienced a lot of stuff, and they're done. And I and I appreciate that, from the science that I understand about learning is that you know, when somebody is in a fear state, when they're feeling activated, they're not taking in any new information, right, you get the amygdala hijack. And that's it. And we see that with the with the fragility that happens in pops up and then defensiveness.
Kerry Cavers:And so within MAR we are really focused on it's a learning space, right? We know, people are going to mess up, we know people are going to ask a question, and there's going to be people who go, but we're going to like, take a moment and be like, hey, actually, you want to use this language, or I see where you might be perpetuating something, or you have a bias that needs to be addressed, just by the way that you're framing this. And it's it, we are really focused on calling people in and coming alongside them with their learning and that is not for everyone. It's not there's there are some White people who that is not for, for a variety of reasons. And there's some racialized people who it's harmful for them to be in that space. And I very much respect that. But that's the how MAR is different. And that's kind of like on our highway to racial justice. That's our lane. And then, if I may, on with the racialized people needing to do the work, like we live in a White supremacy society, right, like, as you talk about we are we are conditioned with many different oppressive systems, and that it doesn't escape us either. It just shows up in different ways. Yeah, racialized people we have our work to do to make we there are some people who have the privilege of growing up in families that are deeply connected to culture, that they've been able to have these conversations before and are very grounded in their understanding of racism and how it impacts them.
Kerry Cavers:But there is a large population of racialized people who haven't had that privilege of being so grounded, and especially here, when we have so many people who have brought their families here, over the generations, and Canada is really a country of assimilation. Right? So come in come be part of our multiculturalism, mosaic, but like, don't bring your culture too much, right. And so there's a lot of people, my generation, if you don't talk about it, it's not happening, right? Doesn't exist, it doesn't exist. And I want you to have better experience than me. And so people have lost languages, they've lost connection to culture. They are not understanding what racism is, microaggressions are, and they're simultaneously doing this unlearning the same time that way people are doing this on learning. And so it is really messy, because there's often times, especially for racialized people who are in workplaces who are now prioritizing this, because there's a lot of people who are having these conversations, that they'll get tokenized, or there's an assumption that they can just speak to this. And that can create a lot of feelings of shame, because they don't want to say: Well, no, I don't know, or I'm just learning this too. So, you know, and within racialized communities, we we gatekeeping each other. We do oppression olympics, or, you know, the colorism that happens. And so there's unlearning to be done on both sides. And with that, there is humility and grace that needs to be shown both sides. And I really feel that relationship is the way out of this race, like all of these systems have been created to break that down. And so if we can do this work individually, alongside each other, and together, we can start building those relationships.
Jen Lumanlan:Yeah. I'm curious about whether your mom talked with you about racism.
Kerry Cavers:Not at all. Not at all. No, no, I some. My mom had a whole host of challenges of her own that created a very chaotic environment for me growing up. And I wasn't that connected to my my dad or my dad's side of the family. So I had no real connection to my culture. I remember, so, but it's, it was in me. And so like, I would see things and I would gravitate to things like I gravitated to the Black TV shows that were on at the time in late 80s. And gravitated towards like, in living color. And I wanted to be a fly girl so bad. And so much so that like I told my mom is like, I want it and but I didn't have the words rate. And so really what I wanted was to go and do hip hop class. And so I was like, mom signed me up for dance. And so they put me in dance. And then I got into like, jazz ballet. And it was a raindrop, I was like, I was so mad. So what is this modern sense? And like a variety of other things, right, but I tried to connect, but it just, it wasn't, it wasn't there. And, you know, for from my for my mom being a White person, that was a really big gap on her part, despite the fact that I don't know if she would have ever been able to get there just based on who she is. But like I do, I see a lot of families where there's either one White parent, or maybe two White parents, and they've adopted that because of White supremacy, there is that non recognition of the Whiteness identity and then how it is been the default for the the normal. And that there needs to be mindfulness, there needs to be intentionality, in ensuring that that child knows all the parts of them. And coupled with that, that the White savior, so under White supremacy, that way of thinking of like, I'm the best, I know best. I'm gonna come in and save the day, because I save you from yourself essentially, which creates a chasm in identity, which is something that I have been working really hard as an adult now to, to bridge that and to to heal those parts of myself and to really, like, get to know who I am and everything that makes me. Yeah.
Jen Lumanlan:So you've read Parenting Beyond Power. And I guess I'm curious as to how it landed for you.
Kerry Cavers:Um, I think it is a book that every parent should read. I really do. I myself, I have some strong-willed, very spirited kids, outside-the-box thinker, kind of kids. And so I've been on this journey for a while of like, how do I best support my kids, meet them where they're at? And so I've read a bunch of different parenting books, like I see some congruency with, like the explosive child in that framework of let's treat our children like little humans, which I really, really appreciate. But with Parenting Beyond Power, what I love about it is bringing in those systems of oppression that whether we know it or not have a huge impact on our lives in the relationships that we have with our kiddos. And I think it both give gives parents and caregivers the permission to put down some of that guilt and responsibility for the patterns that they may have gotten into with our kids And be able to say, oh, okay, there's something bigger at play here. And that like being able to, it's in its eyes and like shifting the blame, but there's like an accountability that doesn't fully rests on our shoulders of what how the system's the generation, the parenting that we've gone through. And if you invite people in a very non-blaming, non-confrontational way to have a look at this and like, I think it is, like I love the book. And I know, sorry, I'm rambling gosh, I know it's it must bring up a whole bunch of feelings for you, I would assume being someone who is White, writing a book like this, and I think it's really important to, to hear this from racialized voices. And to hear this from White voices, because you are going to speak in a way tell a story in a way, share your own experiences in a way that people are going to connect to, that they wouldn't necessarily connect to, when I if I were to share a story that way. So I think it's really important. And I think it's really important for White people to say, look, I'm doing this work. And I'm surviving, like, I haven't fallen apart, right. And so I really, I love the book, I love the book.
Jen Lumanlan:Thank you, that means a lot to me. And that I there are some people who say that a White person shouldn't write this book. And so I definitely struggled with that. And I think that the the key thing that made me want to write it was, absolutely, we have to read and support the work of BIPOC writers. And I haven't seen a book that talks about what is essentially doing anti-racist work, right? From a perspective, that's different than talking with your child about race, which we have to do, right, we have never, ever stopped doing that. But if we are talking and we're having the conversations or reading the books, we're doing those things, and then we're turning around and using our power over a child to get them to do what we want them to do, then, I mean, anyone who's ever sworn in front of their child knows that if you then tell him not to swear, they don't take the lesson of your words. You take the lesson of your deeds and your actions. So it was really important to me to not just have the background of why is this important. But then, and what do we do about it? Where do we go from here? So I'm also wondering is are there aspects of the the tools part of the book that that landed for you in a way that other resources haven't, that you've been able to use? Maybe since you've been reading them? Could you tell us about that?
Kerry Cavers:Yeah, I so I will admit that. With it with reading the book, if, for me, it was a simultaneously reparenting, healing part of myself. As well as examining how I'm showing up in the interactions with my kids. And I, there's a part of the book where you talk about needs, right? And it's very central to this and planning everybody's needs and the like, what is it that I need, And I had to really sit with that. And I really appreciate it, the the visit, like the resources in listing out the different needs, because that was really helpful because it felt overwhelming, when when for someone who like, the way that I grew up and how I am now of you know, I often put other people's needs in front of mine and even just like there was a time when I was really mindful of like, setting boundaries and not putting someone's needs in front of mine but life happens, right and having three kids and trying to manage a household and sometimes we just lose ourselves in that to make sure that everything else is working.
Kerry Cavers:And so when I got to that point in the book, it it like made me stop and I was like I really need to connect back in with this. And just that reframe of how to have that conversation about like what my needs are and modeling that for my kids like hey, I really liked that I really liked the cupcake and being able to you know have those and and having that conversation and that relationship with with your child and it's it's you are having a conversation you're modeling it to them you're also like learning about them they're feeling seen and heard and you're feeling seen and heard and then you have that and you can refer back to it. And for me visuals I love visuals, I need visuals, and my kids do too. So I like using that with them as we've we've just started but already has been helpful and just be like oh like are we you know, are we talking about the cherry are we talking about the icing like where are we in things? So I yeah, it's been great. I love it.
Jen Lumanlan:Can you tell us about an example of a situation that where it seemed like maybe there was conflict and no way to meet both people's needs, maybe you maybe you want a child, and you realize, oh, we're actually fighting about strategy, strategies here. And if we can think about this level of needs, then we can find a way to meet both of our needs. Does something come to mind?
Kerry Cavers:Um, let me think. So, yes, so my I'm, so what I'm thinking about right now is, why would my kids be okay with me sharing. So I just want to make sure to be respectful of their time.
Jen Lumanlan:If you want to pause and think about it, and then you can answer me and I can ask the question again.
Kerry Cavers:No, it's okay, I got it. Um, so my, my daughter, she is just about to turn 6. So she's going into grade one. And she right now, like, going back to school to transition. It's a little bit scary. And so we've been working together on what would be what she needs to be able to stay for the full day. And there was, and for me, like, 'cause I'm working, I need to be able to do a fast drop off, and get back to work and, you know, get onto my emails or anything like that. So there was a level of impatience that I was having. But I also recognized that I want to be there for her and be supportive, but I couldn't figure out what it was for her. That was the challenge. And so and last year for kindergarten, like we did the surfboard carry, and sometimes have, you know, really upset and she will always like, after she's there settle in and be okay. So for this time, we were, you know, I was very fumbled at trying to put these things into practice, but was just talking with her, like, you know, what's, what are you feeling? What are you feeling in your body? And, you know, what do you need, and we were in wish we were in the classroom at that point. And, And she was able to tell me for the kind of the first time she's like, it's all the kids and they're looking at me, And I am feeling like, scared, and I need you there, because you helped me feel safe. And so and like, I'm on some level, I knew that right. And so then we could talk about how to make her feel safe. So she now has an emotional support dog stuffy that she brings with her and we've been able to connect with the teacher. And so we do a pass off the teacher, like physical touch to physical touch with the teacher so she feels safe. She feels that someone has her back. And that like, in such a short amount of time, we've been able to move forward faster than, you know, different tools and strategies that we were trying last year. And she's a little bit older, too. So that helps that fall as well. But I think really being able to find that need and address that need and also giving her options so we talked about, okay, like I can, week, I can stay longer for drop off, and then you stay the whole day. Or we can do a faster drop off and they pick you up early. So also giving her some autonomy in that of what would meet her needs.
Jen Lumanlan:Yeah. And it's so I think it's so profound to just understand, oh, this is a need for safety. And the strategies we can use to address that are very different than they would be if she had a different need. And so we stopped just throwing spaghetti at the wall and trying everything under the sun. And we're actively looking for how can we help you to feel safe, which then enables you to meet your need for competence and your work?
Kerry Cavers:Yes, competence was a highlight of mine. Yes, yeah. I could imagine, have asked me a bunch of questions. And so I want to know, like, aside from reading the book, like, why, why do culture talks like this seems like a very different way of going out and connecting with people and talking about your book, as opposed to doing like a book tour?
Jen Lumanlan:Yeah, I think it was sort of the intersection of seeing the challenges of my narrow divergence, and wanting to work with that and also, knowing that the story is so much larger than Parenting Beyond Power. And so, you know, having a stage by myself kind of scary, having a stage with four or five other people a lot less scary. And so there was that aspect of it. And then you know, if I'm going to be coming into these communities and talking about local situations, I mean, frankly, I don't know that much about the work that's happening locally. But there is amazing work that's happening locally. And I really wanted to be able to showcase that and to support the folks on the panel, the folks in the audience, the relay to for everybody to make connections. And I was really happy to see some of that happening. In the event that we had yesterday, where people, we saw two people who lived two blocks down the street from each other and had no idea and they just met, and now they're gonna get together, and some of the palace making plans to get together and have coffee together. And so if, if nothing else happens, amazing community and connections have already been made. And in addition, I think that the audience members now see the panelists in a different way than they saw before, right, they see you in a different way than they've seen you before. They are connecting your work and connecting the dots on that to the work that other people are doing as well, and how that shows up in different kinds of issues that maybe they hadn't considered before as being related to the work that you do. And so it's really about moving beyond our silos, right? We have this idea that, well, it's my book, and I'm gonna do this thing, And it's all gonna be about my thing. And I'm like, that's, that's White supremacy, White supremacy is my way of going about it. So do I want to be part of perpetuating this system that I'm trying to work on dismantling? Or can I imagine a way that shares the audience that shares the thinking that shares the ideas that shares the passion and the relationships with a broader group of people, so that we can all benefit from that we can all learn from each other and support each other's work?
Jen Lumanlan:And so I think, you know, that's why we're sitting here today is because we had the opportunity to be together on the panel, and then saw another way that we could work together that can support both of us. And so I hope to replicate this not in its exact form, but with different topics with different people working on different areas have these issues in many different cities around the US, Canada, other places, maybe even further than that, in the long term. So yeah, it's really sort of seeing it as part of a movement, part part of a broader conversation that's happening in the world about these really challenging social issues. So I'm so so I asked you to be on this panel. And I will never forget the way you responded, actually. So I wonder if you remember the way you responded. And I'm also curious as to why did you agree to do this? Why do you say yes?
Kerry Cavers:So I being in this space, now, we'll get a lot of requests to come in and talk and be somewhere. And often times, I can tell, it's really just a checkbox, you know, the way that it's been phrased or asked, I can tell that an individual has not done much work, they're not really valuing the weight of the situation. And the way that your email came in your request came in, and how full some it was, and all the details. And for me, what I appreciated the most was the vulnerability that came through from you have you had an awareness of your social location. So your privilege intersecting with the variety of other things that you have going on what you're trying to accomplish? And being up like you there is nothing to hide? Right? I can it was very transparent and then adding in the pages of the book to give me a preview, I felt fully supported, in that I felt like you had thought through how you were going to keep me safe, how you were going to ensure that it was a respectful environment in all of these kinds of things. So like, I felt no hesitancy in saying yes. Okay.
Jen Lumanlan:And so what made it be an event that you wanted to do right, I was invited to so many events, why this one is sort of a different one, given how limited your time is?
Kerry Cavers:Yes. So for me, what the book was based on is very much the work I see our membership, needing to do for mom say if her, the mothering people who are in our part of our group, it really is that untangling of those systems, and how that shows up in parenting, because we, my thing for MAR is people who are embodying anti-racism. And if as parents, we're not tackling some of these bigger ways that it shows up for us in the power struggles that we have, because that power struggle is what keeps all of these systems of oppression in place. We're not going to do it. And so I felt like there was a natural alignment with what you were doing, being able to come and connect with some other people who are doing fantastic things as well, was of interest to me because it can get lonely, being someone who is pushing that boulder up the hill. And so connecting with like minded people, was a draw for me, and then just being in a space of community and talking about this, it's my jam, I love it. So, you know, when when all of those things were in place, it felt like a really special opportunity to participate in something. I think that the universe blesses us in different ways. And one of those blessings has been getting to know you. I'm very grateful that you reached out to invite me to participate in this And I hope that we can continue working together. And, you know, I just one of the things that I've been thinking about and just wondering is like, what, of doing this work that you do with the book and the podcast and bringing people together to have these conversations, like, how does that fill your cup? Like, what do you love the most about that?
Jen Lumanlan:I think that learning about my White privilege, learning about patriarchy, learning about how capitalism has impacted us was something that it's like one of those things that once you know it, you can't know it. And once I know, or something like that, it's really hard for me to turn away from it. And to not do everything in my capacity to do something that really, I hope makes a profound impact in the world. And I think my thinking about my needs, my need to matter, right to do something that leaves the world in a better place than I found it is really, really strong. And so the the form that that takes is going to vary, right? Sometimes it's going to be a panel discussion through culture talk, sometimes it's going to be listening to a podcast episode or right, you know, reading writing a book. And those messages can come in different ways for different people who learn in different ways and who want to be in community in different ways.
Jen Lumanlan:And really, I'm just trying to provide options for other folks to learn the same things I have learned, and the impact that this has had on us, right, this is this has affected all of us. It has affected some of us way more and in way different ways. But it has affected me too. It has hurt me too. It has stolen things from me too. And so when I think when people see that, when they understand that, they're going to be more willing to come on this journey, and to walk with us, right, I'm not a person who's figured this out and fixed it even in my own life. Nevermind, you know, any anywhere further than that, but it's more, finding people to walk on this journey with together, I really think is how the work happens, and how it gets done and how we change these systems so that we can move toward a world where everybody belongs, where nobody has to hide a part of themselves because they feel ashamed of it, that they won't be loved and accepted for who they really are if they show that part of themselves, that we can just be our whole selves and know that that will be seen and respected and understood and loved. That's what I'm working towards, for myself for my daughter, for yourself, for your kids, for all of our kids, so that we can create that world together.
Kerry Cavers:And it will be enough.
Jen Lumanlan:I hope so. Thank you, Kerry. We're honored to speak with you, and be here with you.
Kerry Cavers:Oh, my thank you so much.
Jen Lumanlan:I hope you enjoyed listening to that conversation. As much as I enjoyed having it. It was a real pleasure and a privilege to meet Kerry. And to get to dive a little bit deeper into her background, and all of the things that she's accomplished through Mom's Against Racism, Canada, I wanted to conclude with the list of actions that she sent me. And before I say that, I just wanted to say, I'm going to pretty much give you her words, unedited. So this, obviously, is when I present a list of actions that you can consider taking, then it's it's one person's view, right of actions that we can take.
Jen Lumanlan:And this is Kerry's view. So there are some things on here that other people would say are not necessarily the primary thing you should be focusing on. An example of that might be land acknowledgments, right, which is where you are looking to understand whose land you are on when you're living and working. And to verbally acknowledge that so I've written land acknowledgments, I have one on the Your Parenting Mojo website, there's one in Parenting Beyond Power as well. And, but there's also a very different perspective that says that land acknowledgments are very performative and are not actually very useful. So, so ao just kind of take this as a list of things that you can try. And I also would just want to be clear that this is not sort of a checklist of things that you go through and do once and call it done. And now that you're an anti-racist ally. These are things that you can do on a continuous basis, so that you can continue moving your journey forward, and know that the journey will never be over. So without further ado, here are some suggestions that you can use to progress from bystander to upstander, to ally and to accomplice, and what your next anti-racist parenting step will be, is very much dependent on where you actually are, in your understanding and practice. Many of us perceive ourselves to be much further along than we really are, because that's how we want others to perceive us as well. So once again, don't think of this as a checklist. These are not things you do once and they're done forever. They're ideas for practices you can try today and on an ongoing basis, and carry ads that both White parents and racialized parents can undertake these actions because we all have learning and healing to do. So if all of this is new to you, the ideas that you heard in this episode are very new to you. Some things that you can do are reflection and journaling to become aware of your racist biases and beliefs. And you can do that by embracing the fact that you hold internalized racist beliefs. You can accept that racism exists that it is in all of our systems, in our media And our sports, in our parenting books in everything that we do. If you're a White, I acknowledge that you have white privilege and whether you like it or not, you benefit from our racist systems. Take note of your thoughts and impulses around by people. Are you comfortable or uncomfortable? What is the narrative or the story that is fueling that feeling? What is your first response to stories And accounts of racism? Are you disbelieving? Do you feel the need to reserve judgment? Do you make excuses or apologies for the racist behavior?
Jen Lumanlan:And then the next section for if you're not comfortable with the idea that you have internalized racism, start by diving into some learning, staying open and curious about your beliefs and unlearning, you might find historical accounts written by indigenous and Black people to counter the narrative that you were taught. You can read books on anti-racism and decolonization written by Black and indigenous authors. Talk to friends about race and racism, to talk to your children about what they're learning or not learning at school. Ask them what they think or how they feel about current events. Research whose traditional territory you live on, learn about them and write a personal land acknowledgement. Look for racism in headlines, articles, or even the whole publication. Go back and revisit events in recent history to see if you view them differently. Now, Black and indigenous protests, government policies or campaigns, school events or spirit days, etc. attend courses and workshops by BIPOC presenters, read racially and culturally diverse children's books with your kids And use that as a starting point for conversations. Next, if you've done a lot of literature learning already, then Kerry says it's time to start experiential learning, broadening your exposure to the world that exists outside of your own culture.
Jen Lumanlan:So make friends with BIPOC people watch movies and shows created BIPOC that feature BIPOC. Listen to music from around the world. Eat food from different cultures. Attend cultural events that you've never been to before virtually and in person. Do a diversity book audit and replace all your White centric books with books featuring main characters or all characters of different races and gender identification and abilities. And then finally, it's time to take action and set yourself up for the long run. So practice having consistent conversations with your kids about race, racism and White supremacy. Find friends or groups who you can take this journey with and schedule a monthly time to move yourself forward, support and action doing this work like Mom's Against Racism as an engaged member or with financial donations as a volunteer or all of the above. Check in with your children's schools or childcare to see what actions they are taking to incorporate anti-racism into their curriculum. You can buy a diverse book bundle for your child's teacher or school. Moms Against Racism can facilitate that for you if you'd like or donate diverse books to the school library. Attend the school parent advisory meetings and speak up when there are plans that may be exclusionary or discriminatory. Back up the racialized folks who speak up. If financially feasible for you find a therapist that resonates with you to help you work through your own personal trauma triggers and limiting beliefs. Anti-racism work will bring to the surface what you need to process and heal. Make sure you're well supported to help your own healing. And then Kerry concludes by saying: You can do this. We are living in a time where information is literally at our fingertips. There are multitudes of book and podcast lists to help you in your learning and event right and Facebook make finding workshops easy, you just have to commit. And we actually have a PDF of all of these actions that Kerry mentioned so that you can print it out and refer back to it over and over again at YourParentingMojo.com/MAR, MAR for Moms Against Racism.
Adrian:If you'd like Jen to address the challenge you're having in parenting, just email your one minute video or audio clip to support@YourParentingMojo.com and listen out for your episode soon.