Artwork for podcast Data Driven
Jennifer Swanson on Reinventing Business for the Era of Data and AI
Episode 315th March 2024 • Data Driven • Data Driven
00:00:00 00:56:15

Share Episode

Shownotes

In this episode Frank and Andy welcome Jennifer Swanson explains how businesses can reinvent themselves for the data driven age of AI.

From recognizing the importance of defining clear strategies and outcomes to the struggles of change management, Jennifer reveals that the heart of digital transformation lies in aligning individuals to the company's objectives, and significantly, that it's less about the technology itself and more about the people and processes.

Whether you're a leader in your organization, part of a cross-functional team, or simply intrigued by the intersections of technology and business, this episode is a rich exploration of what it really means to be digitally transformed.

Show Notes

05:31 Technology now integral to every business operation.

07:07 Offline businesses integrating technology for improved experience.

10:04 First wave of digital transformation: applying technology.

14:09 Data governance key to organization's predictable success.

16:54 Organizational governance ensures strategy, priorities, and outcomes.

21:47 Training, support, and focus key for empowerment.

25:57 Selecting narrow slices drives model implementation success.

28:49 "Positive experiences with scrum and DevOps"

32:22 Leadership defines market, customer, and problems.

36:12 In cross functional teams, sticking to lanes.

38:53 Embrace collaboration and diplomacy for success.

40:26 Smart professionals promoted to leadership roles, questioning suitability.

44:15 Found work through family influence and adaptability.

47:23 Experimenting with tech is now very accessible.

50:28 Family loves Audible, enjoys romance novel series.

55:23 Jennifer, thanks for the great digital transformation explanation.


Transcripts

Speaker:

Hello and welcome back to Data Driven. Our next

Speaker:

guest on the Data Driven podcast is none other than the digital diva

Speaker:

herself, Jennifer Swanson. As the CEO of

Speaker:

Tuckpoint Advisory Group, Jennifer doesn't just navigate the

Speaker:

digital transformation landscape. She practically

Speaker:

terraforms it. With an explanation of digital

Speaker:

transformation that's so clear and compelling, it could illuminate the

Speaker:

darkest corners of the Internet, Jennifer has the uncanny ability to

Speaker:

demystify the complexities of our digital age.

Speaker:

Her insights don't just scratch the surface. They

Speaker:

dive deep into the heart of how technology reshapes businesses,

Speaker:

cultures, and our very existence. Now on to

Speaker:

the show.

Speaker:

Alright. Hello, and welcome to Data Driven, the podcast where we explore the

Speaker:

emergent fields of artificial intelligence, data science, and, of course,

Speaker:

data engineering. And with me, is my most

Speaker:

favoritest data engineer in the world, Andy Leonard. How's it going,

Speaker:

Andy? It's going well, Frank. How are you? I'm doing alright. It's been a

Speaker:

wild week here at, Chateau Lavinia, and, you

Speaker:

know, we've had, just got back from a funeral out of state, and,

Speaker:

you know, it's all sad and all. But, Yeah. I it has taught

Speaker:

me to appreciate every moment, because our future

Speaker:

is not guaranteed. So true. How about you?

Speaker:

How things by you in Farmville? Things are good. You know,

Speaker:

we're in the end of February. We're doing this recording on February

Speaker:

27, 2024. And,

Speaker:

you know, the trees have been budding now for about, I don't

Speaker:

know, 2 or 3 weeks, and you may see me do, you know, rub the

Speaker:

corner of my eye. Pollen seems to be getting there. I actually washed

Speaker:

pollen off the windshield earlier today. True story.

Speaker:

Not a lot. Not a lot. Just a just a little bit of a

Speaker:

dusting, but it was definitely pollen. Yeah. And we've been

Speaker:

sneezing. We've had our than that. Our interesting.

Speaker:

We've had our first, start of, fake spring.

Speaker:

It's, like, 50 degrees today. And then tomorrow, it'll probably be, like, you

Speaker:

know, below freezing. Might get snow again. Who knows? But speaking

Speaker:

of snow, our guest today is from a place

Speaker:

known for lots of snow. Except this year.

Speaker:

Right. Except this they were just talking about that in the green room. Yeah. That's

Speaker:

right. So I'd like to welcome Jennifer, Swanson to the show.

Speaker:

She is the founder and CEO of Tuck Point Advisory Group,

Speaker:

a collective of digital transformation experts helping world

Speaker:

class organizations integrate digital technology into all

Speaker:

areas of their business and significantly improving customer experience and their

Speaker:

operations. So this is the, I guess it's second episode where we talk about

Speaker:

customer experience and customer, success, but

Speaker:

digital transformation, if there's ever been a loaded word.

Speaker:

I know. I know. What is that? Because I I when I was at

Speaker:

Microsoft, they they had this, the previous leader of the

Speaker:

particular group I was in had had something called Digital Transformation

Speaker:

Academy, and I wasn't really sure what it was about. It was

Speaker:

Yeah. To to me, it was an excuse to go to Vegas in this particular

Speaker:

executive to show off her her boat collection.

Speaker:

Sure. But I'm pretty sure digital transformation has more to do with

Speaker:

actual real work. Well, I think so. But, you

Speaker:

know, there's still a fair number of people walking around showing off their boats

Speaker:

and Rolexes that are working in digital transformation too. I

Speaker:

I will tell you that, I usually lead

Speaker:

with digital transformation because I can usually gauge

Speaker:

whether or not somebody is gonna have the slightest clue what I'm

Speaker:

talking about when I say, well, sure. I'm a consultant. I work in digital

Speaker:

transformation, and then I kinda watch their eyes. And if they glaze over,

Speaker:

I leave it at that. And then I ask them about whether or not they,

Speaker:

you know, watch the latest whatever sports ball thing or whatever, and then

Speaker:

we kinda move on from there. Or if they lean in and go,

Speaker:

you know, what do you mean when you say digital transformation? Then I go,

Speaker:

They're at least interested. Right? Like, at least they know something about this.

Speaker:

And really honestly, for me, digital

Speaker:

transformation is has lost all meaning. Right? It is

Speaker:

really for me the end tuck point. We really actually focus on operating

Speaker:

models and how companies work with technology and

Speaker:

people to, like, bring value both to the

Speaker:

company and the and the people that they serve. Right? The employees,

Speaker:

the customers, clients, what have you.

Speaker:

But nobody would understand that, and that sure as heck doesn't fit on a tagline

Speaker:

on a website or anything else like that. So we we use the vernacular of

Speaker:

digital transformation because that's the space in the market that is sort

Speaker:

of most often discussed. But, actually, the way we

Speaker:

describe digital transformation was in the headline you read, which is

Speaker:

technology infusing every part of the business. Right?

Speaker:

So 15, 20 years ago, maybe 25 years ago,

Speaker:

technology was the thing that drove, you know, our

Speaker:

email, maybe our the data stack, the, you

Speaker:

know, the customer database, the, you

Speaker:

know, the the big computer in the backroom. That's actually how my dad got his

Speaker:

start. He worked he worked with the computer. Right?

Speaker:

And that was in the giant the giant clean room. Right? The

Speaker:

computer. Nice. Back in the sixties

Speaker:

seventies in grocery. That was where he got his start.

Speaker:

Right? Technology was this thing that sat over there, and it

Speaker:

was, like, a part that was one part of the business,

Speaker:

and then the rest of the business operated sort of independently

Speaker:

from technology. And clearly, we are 50, 60 years

Speaker:

from that genesis. And where we are now is that

Speaker:

technology is the business and business is technology, and there's no part

Speaker:

of any business anywhere that is not

Speaker:

touched by technology, even in businesses that are

Speaker:

not technical by nature. So I always tell the story,

Speaker:

and I always say, stop me if you've heard this one. But, you know, take

Speaker:

the most offline business you can think of, and I always I go

Speaker:

to masonry. Right? And maybe because we've we did a massive

Speaker:

backyard patio project last year. Right? So here you have

Speaker:

people who are they're ordering

Speaker:

patio pavers and bricks and mortar and all of that stuff.

Speaker:

Right? So they are coming out to my house, and they are working in an

Speaker:

incredibly manual manner of

Speaker:

measuring and, you know, leveling and everything in there,

Speaker:

building things with hands with

Speaker:

hands and and materials. But guess what? They have to order all of that.

Speaker:

They've got supply they've gotta manage supply supply chain

Speaker:

issues. They've got labor. They have to be paid.

Speaker:

They have to be hired. People are finding them online

Speaker:

through review sites, through everything else. So even these

Speaker:

considered, like, offline businesses still have

Speaker:

technology all throughout their business. And the question is,

Speaker:

how integrated is that? How well is it

Speaker:

managed? How intuitive is that?

Speaker:

How, easily, how easy is it for

Speaker:

employees to manage it? How easy is it for customers

Speaker:

to use it? How does all of that enhance the customer

Speaker:

experience? And for small companies, sometimes

Speaker:

the answer is it's great. Sometimes for big companies, the answer is it's

Speaker:

great. And usually the answer is, well, you

Speaker:

know, it leaves a little to be desired. And that's where we

Speaker:

come in to really help think about that end to end experience, whether

Speaker:

it's on the employee experience side, the customer experience side, or sort of

Speaker:

the full stack, right, to really think about it, you know,

Speaker:

nose to tail, stem to stern, and think about how that full

Speaker:

experience is gonna be integrated and that technology end to end

Speaker:

integration is gonna happen. The you can't do that with

Speaker:

teams that are functioning in silos. You have to have cross

Speaker:

functional teams. You have to have cross functional organizations. You

Speaker:

have to have funding models that support that. You have to have

Speaker:

governance models that support that, and you have to have very different kinds

Speaker:

of mindsets that are different than when technology was,

Speaker:

again, the computer in the room over here and business off doing

Speaker:

their own thing. So that's kind of my manifesto of who I am and

Speaker:

what we do. That is the single best sorry. The

Speaker:

definition of of digital transformation. The single best one I've

Speaker:

ever heard. Aw. Now Thank you so much. It it's awesome because, you know, you

Speaker:

you bring up a good point that all of the way companies

Speaker:

are structured, it was the computer people were kinda

Speaker:

off on their own. Yeah. And when

Speaker:

I switched computer science when I was young but a young man in university,

Speaker:

my mom was horrified by the fact I would be one of those weird

Speaker:

people in the basement. Yes. And He has with moss on his

Speaker:

back. Right? Yeah. Right. And, you know, it's,

Speaker:

my home office, ironically, is in the basement of the house. But

Speaker:

Sure. I have a window. But, and

Speaker:

and, plus, you know, a lot of the the way that organizations are

Speaker:

structured are very much in that that kind of that

Speaker:

pre kind of modern era And you bring up the point, like, cross

Speaker:

functional teams, cross functional budgets. And Yeah. You know,

Speaker:

it it's almost like and correct me if I'm wrong, that the

Speaker:

the the the way that companies are organized and structured

Speaker:

is still 60 some odd years behind the curve. Yes.

Speaker:

Yes. Sorry, Andy. I didn't cut you off. Yeah. Sorry.

Speaker:

No. Sorry, Andy. No. That's okay. You asked what I was going to, so we're

Speaker:

good. I was going for cross functional and and a little more depth there.

Speaker:

Yeah. The, and that's the part that I think is really interesting is

Speaker:

that I think the first wave of digital transformation was, let's

Speaker:

apply technology to everything. Right?

Speaker:

And not to steal a very another very

Speaker:

overused phrase, but that's putting lipstick on a pig. Right?

Speaker:

Because what the assumption was, we could just

Speaker:

take technology, you know, and

Speaker:

smack it right on top of all of the old structures, all

Speaker:

of the old ways of doing things, the old, you know,

Speaker:

sort of siloed structures, The the

Speaker:

manufacturing model of we, you know, we do something over

Speaker:

here, and we hand it off to somebody next to us who hands it off

Speaker:

to somebody else who hands it off to somebody else. And, really, modern technology

Speaker:

is not built that way. Right? Modern technology really has a much more

Speaker:

organic structure and has to be built in a more thoughtful

Speaker:

strategic end to end manner if you're gonna get the the ROI

Speaker:

out of it. And so that's where

Speaker:

operating model transformation comes in. Right? And that shift from

Speaker:

project management into product management and really thinking

Speaker:

about that end to end structure. And so I think that's really

Speaker:

where I believe that second wave transformation piece is coming

Speaker:

in, and that's where we find you know, that's our market is in that

Speaker:

second wave where people will ask me, well, what kind of technology do you work

Speaker:

on? And we're like, yes. All of it. It doesn't matter because it's

Speaker:

it's not about the technology. It's the organizations that are not

Speaker:

seeing their investments in that technology or those data

Speaker:

structures or whatever it is, whatever those investments were in that first

Speaker:

wave, the executive teams are going like, wait a minute.

Speaker:

We were promised x, y, and z, and we're

Speaker:

not seeing it. Why not? And it's because it stopped with the

Speaker:

technology, and it did not go deep enough into ways

Speaker:

of working and into structure and into culture and

Speaker:

into governance and all those other pieces.

Speaker:

I think back to when I was a younger man,

Speaker:

and I was working in a large chemical company, and they had set up a

Speaker:

website. Right? They set up this big ecommerce thing. There's obviously the website

Speaker:

to kinda explain the company and all that, but they had this idea where you

Speaker:

can order directly on the web. And, ultimately, what happened was

Speaker:

somebody got an email and somebody manually key in the order into SAP.

Speaker:

But it. But you're right. Like, it was it was really

Speaker:

more of a pressure to get some kind of way that people can

Speaker:

order online in a way that

Speaker:

it was a very much a facade, and it was very much a duct tape

Speaker:

solution. But I think back, and I'm like, you know, if I could go back

Speaker:

in time and tell myself something other than the winning lottery numbers, it

Speaker:

would be Yeah. You have to think about the business

Speaker:

structure that you're operating in as an IT person

Speaker:

and very much so these are not IT

Speaker:

experts. These are not And and the people on the board, they get these

Speaker:

promises from vendors, from the news media, from

Speaker:

this, and they don't see it because it's

Speaker:

people process and technology. Right? Like, in in technology, you know,

Speaker:

one thing of it. And, AI, I think I'm seeing this all

Speaker:

repeat at kitchen kids of AI. Okay. So I'm not

Speaker:

crazy. Right? So is this kind of like AI? And I get a lot of

Speaker:

customers say, we want to use Gen AI. For what? And

Speaker:

when you challenge them, they kinda say, well, we want a chatbot.

Speaker:

K? For what? For what? And

Speaker:

Yes. I don't think people are really fully

Speaker:

I I encourage people to think beyond the chatbot. Right? Because there's gonna

Speaker:

be more use cases for Gen AI. But I

Speaker:

think the fundamentals are people, process, and technology. What's

Speaker:

your data supply chain look like? Governance. Right? You said governance a number

Speaker:

of times. You know, you you're on the short path

Speaker:

to being one of my favorite guests. What does

Speaker:

governance mean to you? Right? Because you're probably talking about more than just data governance.

Speaker:

I am. Although data governance is a really important

Speaker:

part of it, I just think that, inside of organizations,

Speaker:

which, by the way, governance makes me, like, the least popular person at any

Speaker:

dinner party, but I really do like governance because what

Speaker:

governance says to me is that there's inside of an organization.

Speaker:

There is a predictable,

Speaker:

and it doesn't have to be overly structured.

Speaker:

It does not have to be onerous. It does not have

Speaker:

to be, you know, death by committee because, good lord, we need

Speaker:

fewer of those. But that does have to be a predictable

Speaker:

method by which,

Speaker:

ideas

Speaker:

get floated up, prioritized,

Speaker:

and green lit, right, according to the outcomes and

Speaker:

strategies that are decided as the most important ones at the top of the house.

Speaker:

Right? So in a in a high functioning organization in my mind, right,

Speaker:

in a really modern, forward thinking, outcome oriented

Speaker:

organization, you have an executive team saying, we

Speaker:

know what direction we're heading, and we know what good looks like. Right?

Speaker:

Which means they have a clear strategy where they're gonna play and how they're gonna

Speaker:

win, and they know they've defined outcomes. Right? We

Speaker:

they know that's what, you know, that's what good looks like. They're not

Speaker:

saying we wanna make more money. They're saying,

Speaker:

you know, they're saying we wanna grow revenue through,

Speaker:

you know, organic growth in this particular market. We wanna do

Speaker:

it through, deepening our relationship with existing

Speaker:

customers, like, whatever that is. Right? They've defined what good looks

Speaker:

like, and they've empowered teams to say, alright. Now given

Speaker:

that, we trust all of the business units

Speaker:

to now go define how they're going to do that within their own spheres of

Speaker:

influence. And there's there are those organizations are gonna come back and say,

Speaker:

alright. Well, we've got 12 ideas. Here's our 12 ideas. Which 3

Speaker:

should we be working on? Right? And governance is the method

Speaker:

by which the organization surfaces those

Speaker:

ideas, decides how those ideas are gonna move forward, and goes at

Speaker:

them because we can't that organization can't go

Speaker:

after a 100 good ideas. Right? Somebody

Speaker:

shared a quote, and I won't be able to attribute it. So I'm very sorry

Speaker:

whoever said it and whoever shared it with me. But, somebody

Speaker:

shared with me on LinkedIn the other day something that said, priorities

Speaker:

are like arms. Anybody who tells you that they have more than

Speaker:

2 is either delusional or lying to you. Right?

Speaker:

And so That's a good quote. Like,

Speaker:

the those organizations have to have a method by which they're

Speaker:

they're saying not even no to things,

Speaker:

but not now. Right? And so governance

Speaker:

organizational governance to me is a way by which

Speaker:

strategy is set, outcomes are defined, and priorities are

Speaker:

determined. And the whole organization holds hands and says,

Speaker:

this is what we're working on, and it's okay. Not it's not

Speaker:

just okay. It's required that we're not working on the

Speaker:

things that don't fit in that bucket.

Speaker:

Right? Because that's the only way we're gonna be able to get things

Speaker:

done that we say are important. And so

Speaker:

that governance looks different in different companies. Right?

Speaker:

But on some regular basis, the leadership, you

Speaker:

know, probably 2 or 3 levels down, all have to come together and hold hands

Speaker:

and say, we know what's important. We agree what's important, and

Speaker:

we're committed to what's important. Right? Now when you get down into

Speaker:

data governance, there's different layers, and that takes on a whole layer different

Speaker:

layer of structure and meaning and things like that. But from

Speaker:

my perspective, that enterprise governance is

Speaker:

that ability to get everybody to hold hands

Speaker:

on priorities. You know,

Speaker:

it sounds sorry, Andy. It sounds a lot like cultural

Speaker:

governance. Yes.

Speaker:

Yes. Because how many times have you worked at a

Speaker:

company where

Speaker:

you get it. There's, like, a executive board meeting and everybody nods at

Speaker:

the strategies. It's, yes, this is the best strategy we've ever had in a 100

Speaker:

years of whatever. And you look at it and you go, first of all, it's

Speaker:

no different than the strategy we had 3 years ago, but okay. And that there's

Speaker:

not really a lot of meaning there, and I'm not really sure what it means

Speaker:

for me 3 levels down and how I'm supposed to decide what to work on.

Speaker:

Right? Yeah. And every vice president in

Speaker:

that company is gonna go back to their desk and work on the same projects

Speaker:

that are their pet projects because nobody's really holding them

Speaker:

accountable to stop working on the stuff that they just wanna work on because it's

Speaker:

their pet project. Right? Yep. It's a really hard

Speaker:

thing to get everybody in a company to take some bold steps

Speaker:

to say what's in and what's out. What we're

Speaker:

doing and what we're putting, we're either saying no to or not now

Speaker:

to. Right? Yeah. It's really hard to do

Speaker:

that. It seems like the no or not now or

Speaker:

not yet. That that seems to be the hard one.

Speaker:

Sure. Sure. Yeah. Wow. Sure.

Speaker:

So that's why we do a lot of, my my advisers

Speaker:

and I end up doing a lot of what we call as therapy, a

Speaker:

lot of therapy with the executive teams. And the other

Speaker:

joke, I have a lot of material that I use, but a lot of it

Speaker:

is I come in and I say, we're gonna use the f word a lot.

Speaker:

Feelings. We're going to talk about our feelings a lot. That's

Speaker:

funny. I like that. And that's what an f word I don't have to bleep.

Speaker:

Right. We had our first episode go

Speaker:

live, I think, the overnight where it was the first time we bleeped

Speaker:

it. It was just kinda funny. So, but,

Speaker:

the interesting thing is is that you're right. Like, it it's it's really

Speaker:

people and egos. Right? Because Oh, yes. Some people on their on

Speaker:

their their pet projects. Like, how do you get them to walk away from

Speaker:

their pet projects? It's worth not walk away, put on the shelf for later.

Speaker:

Like, that seems like, a lot of therapy, actually.

Speaker:

Yeah. Well and some of it is too is the change

Speaker:

that people have to make from driving their own

Speaker:

agenda to driving the agenda of the company. That's a

Speaker:

big that's a big shift. From me to we

Speaker:

is a really big shift, I think, in a lot of this. It's a really

Speaker:

big part of why we have a lot of change management,

Speaker:

as a part of our services. Right? Because I think and we do

Speaker:

a lot in terms of, executive team dynamics because

Speaker:

that's really where a lot of this starts. And not just at the executive

Speaker:

team, but that next layer down. And, you know,

Speaker:

every layer of an organization sort of brings with it its own dynamics. What we

Speaker:

have found really is that oftentimes, it's not the executive team that has

Speaker:

the biggest challenge, and it's not the grassroots layer. Mostly, we

Speaker:

find teams, you know, product teams in particular,

Speaker:

even if they're new teams, you know, teams of folks that and of

Speaker:

engineers, especially engineers that have experience working

Speaker:

in agile. They're hungry for this. They're ready. They want the autonomy. They want

Speaker:

the empowerment. They're ready to go. You know,

Speaker:

some organizations do some work in transitioning project

Speaker:

managers and BAs into product roles. They give them training. They give

Speaker:

them support. When done well and done right,

Speaker:

those folks are hungry and anxious and ready to have that empowerment and that, like,

Speaker:

dedicated focus of having one thing to work on rather than being,

Speaker:

like, peanut butter spread on things all the time. Right? They wanna really

Speaker:

have that focus. So it's not the grassroots that struggles, and it's not

Speaker:

the executive team. But those middle layers, you know, we

Speaker:

always say what got them here is not what's gonna get them to that next

Speaker:

layer. And so really part of it is taking them through that,

Speaker:

that change management to building the change muscle to

Speaker:

say, like, you've got the right skills. You have to start to shift

Speaker:

how you deploy them and helping them feel safe in that

Speaker:

deployment that they might suck at it for at first before they're gonna get good

Speaker:

at it in that leadership in that leadership mode. And that's really

Speaker:

hard to do. It takes a commitment from that top layer, right, and support of

Speaker:

their people to say, look. You probably are gonna suck at this, and it's okay.

Speaker:

We're we've got your back. Right? That we're gonna, like, help you through it,

Speaker:

but that's a really big part of it. And that's why, by the way, what

Speaker:

have we just been talking about in the last 5 minutes? We have not been

Speaker:

talking one bit about technology, which is why the whole idea that this is

Speaker:

digital transformation is such bunk. Right? It's not about

Speaker:

the technology. It's all about the people. It's it's poorly named,

Speaker:

isn't it? It really is. Digital is almost

Speaker:

incidental. Right? Because it's about Right. It's

Speaker:

about the the people and the process, not

Speaker:

Yeah. Not the technology. Technology is Yeah. That's

Speaker:

interesting. I I I

Speaker:

I, some time ago when I I switched to working for a software company, You

Speaker:

know, I was just like, I just appreciated the difference because a

Speaker:

wise man once told me, and he's since passed away,

Speaker:

that all companies view software and

Speaker:

technology as a necessary evil. Just some view it as more necessary

Speaker:

than evil and vice versa and some more evil than necessary.

Speaker:

And I think I get it. And I think I know why that is,

Speaker:

is it really boils down to how things were originally structured. It was the

Speaker:

there was it it had the in a lot of companies, I'm not saying all,

Speaker:

but the the general flavor is IT

Speaker:

versus everybody else. Right? That's been my

Speaker:

experience. So Yeah. Maybe maybe, I'm alone

Speaker:

in that. But no it's all been varying degrees of that and and

Speaker:

and when you you know, I I I now under

Speaker:

see I now see that there's a much larger

Speaker:

reason for that. And that that's interesting. So

Speaker:

how do you how do you aside from therapy, I mean, how do

Speaker:

companies get around this? Right? Like, is this I mean, this is a mindset shift

Speaker:

that has to start at the top or start at the bottom and and the

Speaker:

middle management, the middle layers. Yeah.

Speaker:

Poor middle management. They're always attacked from all sides. But I know.

Speaker:

Like, how do you convince like, in a situation where you have

Speaker:

convinced mental management to change, what was the what was the commonalities where

Speaker:

they did change? Well, so I will tell you. I've been doing

Speaker:

this for a while, and it used to I used to take the stance of

Speaker:

you know, people would say, is it better to just rip the Band Aid off

Speaker:

and just, like, late like, reorgan a whole company in,

Speaker:

like, 6 months and just give get just do it everywhere all at once,

Speaker:

make a big mess, and then put it all back together, or do you start

Speaker:

small and roll it out? And I used to say it doesn't matter. I have

Speaker:

since come to a different understanding, and I think I've got, you

Speaker:

know, we can do it both ways. There's pros and cons to both for sure.

Speaker:

But I think I'm coming around to a preference, of

Speaker:

a maybe it's maybe it's my my my age.

Speaker:

Right? Is that my kinder, gentler moments of

Speaker:

that I think part the best way is is, like, luring

Speaker:

people with, you know, sunshine and honey. Right? Like, you find

Speaker:

the space where you can really prove the model with, you know, whether

Speaker:

it's one one team, you know, 3 teams, something.

Speaker:

And I really like this idea of taking a narrow slice right from top to

Speaker:

bottom. So you've got somebody from, like, say, a VP layer all the way down

Speaker:

to the bottom. So not just taking a frontline

Speaker:

team or 2 or 3, but really taking a, you know, like,

Speaker:

a a nice narrow slice from top to bottom and proving the

Speaker:

model all the way down. So you've got advocates who

Speaker:

can see and taste and really, like,

Speaker:

be your, like, oh my gosh. This actually does work right in

Speaker:

in, like, they can feel it. They can, you know, there's like a

Speaker:

visceral feeling to it, and they get excited about it, and then that and start

Speaker:

to spread it to almost like, you know, the teams adjacent to them and then

Speaker:

the teams adjacent to them and teams adjacent to them. It takes a lot of

Speaker:

work to find that right team, but almost in every

Speaker:

single circumstance, the effort to find that narrow

Speaker:

slice is entirely worth it. Right? If spend even if it

Speaker:

means you slow your roll by a month or 2 to find

Speaker:

just that right narrow slice until they're ready, or, you

Speaker:

know, 2 narrow slices and really, like, wall them off for a period

Speaker:

of time, 12 weeks, 15 weeks, something like that to get,

Speaker:

you know, the VP, the directors, the teams

Speaker:

themselves, get them formed, get them, you know, trained, get them up and

Speaker:

running, and get them doing a couple cadences where all of a sudden they start

Speaker:

to feel this energy of, I do own my own destiny. I

Speaker:

am in charge. I do understand how to work with my business partners. I do

Speaker:

know, you know, I can, we can

Speaker:

deliver value faster. It is better when, as a product

Speaker:

owner, I'm sitting with my engineering team and my designer

Speaker:

and my business partners, and we're solutioning in real time. Like, all of a sudden,

Speaker:

they start to feel that, and they're releasing things

Speaker:

in 6 weeks when they've never done anything faster than 6

Speaker:

months. And all of a sudden, they're going, oh,

Speaker:

this. And guess what? That that success and that feeling goes all the way up.

Speaker:

And I think once you start to get that, then it starts to spread, right,

Speaker:

like a good virus through the organization, and you start to go

Speaker:

sideways. But you have to have those you can't just have

Speaker:

those wins be at, like, the junior level, you know, at the

Speaker:

frontline level or the mid middle manager level. You have to sort of have

Speaker:

it all the way up, and you have to pick people who are gonna be

Speaker:

willing to, like, stand on soap boxes and say the same

Speaker:

tell the same stories over and over and over again, and then go sit with

Speaker:

other sit with their peers and be like, hey. I see what

Speaker:

you're doing, and that's an anti pattern, and you need to knock it off. Right?

Speaker:

Like, it can't just be coming from the consultants or from, you know,

Speaker:

whoever is the internal champion. It has to be like, you

Speaker:

can't this is not okay. Right? They have to be those

Speaker:

people have to be the people that are willing to go in

Speaker:

and be in battle with you once you go, which means it's sometimes it's really

Speaker:

hard to find those folks, but it's worth the time to find those

Speaker:

folks. You know? I was I was patting my heart because I'm loving what you're

Speaker:

saying. And I've seen this implemented a bunch of different

Speaker:

ways, and I just wanted to get your take on it because a

Speaker:

few minutes ago, you mentioned agile. And I've

Speaker:

seen from, you know, the bottom and then from

Speaker:

maybe the, you know, the the lower middle, I've

Speaker:

seen, scrum Yeah. Kinda coming

Speaker:

in and bringing with it some of the things you're talking about. There's

Speaker:

definitely a culture shift that has accompanied scrum

Speaker:

where scrum has been implemented successfully in my experience. And

Speaker:

I also see, you know, kind of spiders out again from

Speaker:

that lower middle level down into

Speaker:

more or better or starting DevOps

Speaker:

and and those sorts of, that those sorts of thinking.

Speaker:

Where where I've not seen here's where I've seen it fail is when

Speaker:

people try to take just that piece that works well at the lower

Speaker:

end and then apply it up. Right? Yes. I've seen

Speaker:

that fail a number of times, and and I don't know why.

Speaker:

And it sounds like what you do is you're looking for that

Speaker:

entire stack, that that Yes. Silo, that top

Speaker:

to bottom, and you're fixing the rest of it. Yes.

Speaker:

And so I'd love to love to hear you speak to that. Because let me

Speaker:

tell you how many organizations I've walked into where the first thing

Speaker:

they say to me is, well, we can't do that here because we tried

Speaker:

agile and it didn't work. And I'm like, okay. Say more. Tell me more.

Speaker:

And they're like, wow. You know, fill in the blank

Speaker:

how many years ago? 18 months ago, 3 years ago, whatever,

Speaker:

last week. I don't yeah. It kinda doesn't matter. We

Speaker:

we, we put everybody through Agile, and I'm like, okay. Wait. Hold

Speaker:

up. What do you mean by everybody? And they're like, literally the whole company. Then

Speaker:

I'm like, so just IT. Right? And they're like, no. No.

Speaker:

Everybody. We turned everybody in. Everybody was an agile team. So they went around with,

Speaker:

like, like, a

Speaker:

fairy wand and magic pixie dust. And they're like, you're an agile team,

Speaker:

and you're an agile team, and you're an agile team, and they gave out little

Speaker:

certificates, and everybody's an agile team, and they put them through, like, a little, you

Speaker:

know, whatever, like, a 4 week, 1 week, 12 week, whatever,

Speaker:

dojo, whatever. And they were like, you're all agile teams. And,

Speaker:

like, they didn't address ownership constructs. They didn't address, like

Speaker:

you know, nobody owned anything, but you were an agile team. And I was like,

Speaker:

okay. I know what the problem is.

Speaker:

You know? And I have at least a half a dozen clients in which that

Speaker:

is the exact scenario. Right? Wow. And and to come back

Speaker:

in and say, okay. So, yes, Agile's gonna be a part of this

Speaker:

story, but only once we address things

Speaker:

like, what do teams own?

Speaker:

Right? What is the experience or the capability or the product that

Speaker:

you own and then how you deliver on it.

Speaker:

Agile's the delivery methodology, but you don't start with

Speaker:

Agile because Agile's a delivery methodology. Right? The ownership

Speaker:

construct and the strategy has to be a

Speaker:

part of that. Right? And so, you know, there's no there's no magic

Speaker:

pixie dust in my tool belt over here. You know? And so that's,

Speaker:

I think, a big part of it. So what's the opposite of that? I

Speaker:

mean, so we've we've talked about kind of the delivery model. People at the bottom,

Speaker:

lower lower middle and down. What then what is

Speaker:

the complimentary part of that that's from there up?

Speaker:

Well, some of it a big part of it is getting

Speaker:

leadership to understand that they no longer

Speaker:

I'm just gonna call a spade a spade. They no longer get to say,

Speaker:

the shorthand that I always have is they don't necessarily get to say that the

Speaker:

button is blue. Right? They don't get to say

Speaker:

they don't get to define the features. They don't get to

Speaker:

say, I want you know, in the data realm, their

Speaker:

job is not to say to draw on a little Post it note what they

Speaker:

want the dashboard to look like. That's not the point. The

Speaker:

point is, what questions are you trying to answer? What

Speaker:

problem are you trying to solve? What is the customer need that

Speaker:

we are trying to meet? Right? And by the way, who's the customer? Right? Like,

Speaker:

help define that at the VP and d director level. When

Speaker:

you are talking about that top of that leadership stack, that is

Speaker:

their job, define the market, define the customer, define the

Speaker:

problem. When you are getting to product

Speaker:

teams, their job should be to set take those problems and

Speaker:

say, we know how to solve those because we understand those

Speaker:

customer problems, and we understand our products, and we know how

Speaker:

those things can come together. In the data realm, it's no different.

Speaker:

We know what problem what questions need answering. We know how we wanna use the

Speaker:

data, what insights we're trying to drive. We know what corners we're trying to

Speaker:

see around, and those data teams know what is in

Speaker:

every single slice of that data lake. Right? They know what's there. Data

Speaker:

visualization experts, data scientists know how to bring that to life,

Speaker:

but you're not gonna, like, draw me a dashboard anymore. That is we're done with

Speaker:

that. Right? We are here to those that middle layer is here to be

Speaker:

the experts that you are paying them so handsomely to be. Right?

Speaker:

So I I I don't wanna cut you off, but I hear 3, you

Speaker:

know, 3 tiers. Yeah. I hear executive, you know,

Speaker:

director level. I hear product management. Yes. And

Speaker:

then I hear the people that I was speaking to earlier, the

Speaker:

the lower, middle, and down. And that's that is a different

Speaker:

way of looking at it. Yeah. And the issue is is

Speaker:

that they all have a role to play. You

Speaker:

have got to get those leaders out of trying to

Speaker:

play all three roles because that's not

Speaker:

their job. Their job needs to be forward looking and outward

Speaker:

looking so that everybody else can be the experts that they are

Speaker:

paying, that we're all you know, companies pay a lot of money for the expertise

Speaker:

at every layer. Let's let them be those experts and do their

Speaker:

jobs. That explains a lot of the failure I saw

Speaker:

in my younger days, and I'm older than you, Frank. I've seen

Speaker:

more. Probably older than you too, Jen. So oh,

Speaker:

Jennifer. I'm sorry. I didn't mean to shorten your name without mentioning it. It's fine,

Speaker:

Jen or Jennifer. It's all good. Just don't call me Jenny. That's the only one

Speaker:

I don't like. Don't do that. But, no, I've seen that. I've experienced

Speaker:

it, and I've wondered why there was this lack of harmony. You

Speaker:

know? And I felt like I wasn't being told what I needed

Speaker:

as as a person at the bottom. And I wasn't being told what I needed,

Speaker:

and instead, I was being told stuff that, you know, I already know how to

Speaker:

do this, and part of what you're saying isn't the right way

Speaker:

to do it. Some of it is. Right. But Yeah. You know? And

Speaker:

it's it's you really did a great job, you know,

Speaker:

spelling that out. And and I I think that's again, I'm gonna

Speaker:

echo Frank earlier and say that's probably the best explanation I've heard of that.

Speaker:

So really good. Fault. And also it's a hallucination.

Speaker:

Articulation. That's the way I'm looking for. Articulated that well.

Speaker:

Alright. Go ahead. I know. It's also like, oh, that's why everything always

Speaker:

was messed up. I don't wanna bring myself more work and and fix

Speaker:

it. But That's one. No worries. Like, it was, like, fundamentally, like,

Speaker:

the the you were trying to, like, get, like, a diesel engine to run on

Speaker:

gasoline or whatever analogy you wanna use. It's just not gonna work no

Speaker:

matter how much, you know, you try. One thought I

Speaker:

had, and this is something that I've I've wondered since I heard it. So,

Speaker:

once upon a time, when I was on a cross functional team, at a

Speaker:

very large, software company, and

Speaker:

for folks who can use LinkedIn, you can figure out who this was. I

Speaker:

was in the office in Washington, DC, and

Speaker:

I was on a cross functional team. And I heard somebody say the phrase,

Speaker:

and it's the first time they used it at that company that I heard it

Speaker:

was, we wanna swim in our own lanes. And I heard that, and part of

Speaker:

my, like, brain was like, uh-oh.

Speaker:

So given that cross functional teams seem to be

Speaker:

crucial for success in this, how do you how do you

Speaker:

address that? Because there's definitely a let's be real. We're dealing

Speaker:

with people. We're dealing personalities and egos. How do you how do you solve the

Speaker:

territorial challenges? Or is it more therapy? Well,

Speaker:

there's prob I would want to pull that person aside and say, can

Speaker:

we talk a little bit about what was said in that meeting? Right. Right. Well,

Speaker:

I was Right. Without the benefit of the I was but a plead in

Speaker:

that situation. But yes. I mean, listen. I think, you

Speaker:

know, without the benefit of a time machine. Right? Mhmm.

Speaker:

I think the reality is

Speaker:

human beings are always difficult. We will always be

Speaker:

difficult. It's never gonna be perfect. Cross

Speaker:

team collaboration and cross you know, just just general cross

Speaker:

functional collaboration is always gonna be challenging.

Speaker:

We all have our own areas of expertise,

Speaker:

but it's the additive power of them that is always

Speaker:

what's gonna make breakthrough innovation happen.

Speaker:

Right? Mhmm. 1 plus 1 is always gonna equal 4.

Speaker:

Right? You're not if you're only working by yourself or you're working within

Speaker:

your own swim lane, you're never gonna get to, like, next level innovation or next

Speaker:

level, you know, whether it's service innovation or it's

Speaker:

technical innovation or it's operational innovation. It doesn't matter. Right? You're

Speaker:

just never gonna get there. And, like,

Speaker:

human like, the human history is just it's like littered

Speaker:

with evidence of this. Right? It's like it's only when

Speaker:

cultures and people have bumped into each other. Right?

Speaker:

The salons of the 18th century when poets and scientists came together,

Speaker:

that's when, like, literally, revolutions happened. Right? Like,

Speaker:

this is how it is how it works. So

Speaker:

so then the only way to deal with it is to deal with

Speaker:

it through sort of nuance and

Speaker:

and sort of diplomacy of,

Speaker:

yes. We do all have to we have to own our own expertise,

Speaker:

but it is a a these are the opportunities. The collaborative

Speaker:

opportunities is where where we're gonna shine. So how do we do

Speaker:

that in a way that makes us all better? You know? I

Speaker:

just think there's no way around it other than to, like, greet it head on

Speaker:

and figure out a way to do it in an as nonthreatening away as possible.

Speaker:

But there's just there's always gonna be

Speaker:

somebody who's gonna be crabby about it, and so then you just gotta figure out

Speaker:

how to, like, make it work with them. But mostly, I think what

Speaker:

you do is you find the people who I don't

Speaker:

know. I'm always the one that's like, yes. Let's all get in a room and

Speaker:

do it. Like, I just think about my last corporate experience was with

Speaker:

a large health care organization in Minnesota. You can do the same thing

Speaker:

on LinkedIn. And I will tell you that one of the most thrilling

Speaker:

days of my career, corporate wide, and we all

Speaker:

have this, right, of, like, days where you just were like, this, I can't believe

Speaker:

I'm getting paid to do this work. Right? The most exciting days of your

Speaker:

work, was a day where we were literally having the

Speaker:

worst day ever. Like, everything was broken.

Speaker:

Things were really, really bad. I mean,

Speaker:

bad. And

Speaker:

3 or 4 of the smartest people I literally have ever worked with in my

Speaker:

career who were pretty high up. We were like, I we were

Speaker:

all directors, VPs, and we

Speaker:

maybe were promoted due to the Peter Principle. Right?

Speaker:

Like, we had all like, we were all really smart people as,

Speaker:

like, contributors, and we'd all gotten promoted and we're managing people, but

Speaker:

we were really, like, we were all really good doers. And then all of a

Speaker:

sudden found ourselves leading organizations going, why are we leading organizations? We were

Speaker:

really good doers. And so that included, like, a really smart architect, a really

Speaker:

smart engineer, a really smart product person, a really smart, you know, like,

Speaker:

strategy person. And all of a sudden, we were all VPs going, how the hell

Speaker:

did we end up here? Anyways, we all got in our room in the room

Speaker:

in our really fancy suits or whatever and, like, with whiteboards and stuff.

Speaker:

And we all went right back to our execution days, and we,

Speaker:

like, literally like, I still have a vision of the,

Speaker:

chief architect, like, loosening his tie, rolling up his sleeves,

Speaker:

and was like, alright. We're gonna figure this out.

Speaker:

And it was like 6 hours of the hardest whiteboarding I have

Speaker:

ever done. And, like, that was so fun. There

Speaker:

was no ego in that room. I was like, Alex, I have no

Speaker:

idea what you're talking about over there. Like, this makes no sense to me. Why

Speaker:

are we doing it this way? And it was because he is, like, 25 times

Speaker:

smarter than me, but, like, I've made him explain it to me. And in doing

Speaker:

so, he found some flaws in his thinking, and we, like, you know, figured it

Speaker:

out. But there were no egos in that room. We figured some stuff out, and

Speaker:

we fixed it. That was thrilling to me. I wanna

Speaker:

be around people like that, not the people who were like, Jen,

Speaker:

get in your lane, you know, kind of stuff. And I think you just gotta

Speaker:

figure out how to be around people like that. That is the best

Speaker:

answer to that because I often wonder I often think about that, and

Speaker:

I hear the term cross functional teams, and, like, I

Speaker:

I know that just the way the wind blows, you'll start

Speaker:

hearing, you know, stay in your own lane and things like that. And, like, I

Speaker:

understand both points of view, but there's a there's a tension

Speaker:

there, and I think that was a really good solution to it. I've I

Speaker:

ever since that happened, like, I'll say 8 years

Speaker:

ago since I heard that phrase, I was like,

Speaker:

that always kinda stuck with me. It was like and then I bumped into somebody

Speaker:

else who was on, a cross functional team

Speaker:

and was very stressed out, couple years later

Speaker:

when I rejoined said company. And,

Speaker:

she's like, oh, it's you know, she was explaining situation. I was like, oh, is

Speaker:

so and so saying that, oh, you gotta stick your own swim lanes again. Yeah.

Speaker:

Yeah. I was like, okay. Oh, yeah. That is an accident.

Speaker:

Right? No. Right. Right. Right. Like, you know, like,

Speaker:

now it's interesting. So I don't have any further questions unless you wanna switch to

Speaker:

the pre canned questions. I love this conversation. This is awesome because it helped Yes.

Speaker:

It helped it helped illuminate a lot of things that I never

Speaker:

understood why the situation was so blanked up.

Speaker:

See, it's therapy, Frank. I'm telling you. It's therapy.

Speaker:

I can look back now on a lot of situations where, I I mean, I

Speaker:

just I you feel like you're stuck in a Dilbert cartoon, and it's

Speaker:

just like, why why does it have to be this way? Or why is it

Speaker:

old? Like, Dilbert's popular for a reason. Like, why is that such a common thing?

Speaker:

Right. And, now that kinda

Speaker:

helps, I have a lot of more perspective than I it is therapy. Very well

Speaker:

done. Bravo. Yes.

Speaker:

Okay. So we can questions. Alright. So you wanna kick us off, or

Speaker:

do you want me? I'll kick us off. How did you find your I know

Speaker:

we're talking about data, but how did you find your way into this line of

Speaker:

work? Did this line of work find you, or do you find this line of

Speaker:

work? I found this line of work,

Speaker:

by a very long and winding road. And what I will just say, I won't

Speaker:

take you through all the nitty gritty details, but, I found this line

Speaker:

of work because as I mentioned earlier in the, in the interview,

Speaker:

my dad is a technologist and my

Speaker:

mom, my mom actually got her start, her

Speaker:

career. She's actually an artist by education,

Speaker:

but, didn't wanna be a starving artist. So she went to work in banking

Speaker:

and was a vice president in banking, but was really a

Speaker:

relationships person. Right? She did a lot of things with,

Speaker:

trusts, and she did fundraising late in her career. So she was a really good

Speaker:

relationships person. And so early in my career, what I figured out was that I

Speaker:

was bilingual. I could speak business and I could speak

Speaker:

IT. And, like, back in the day where that was a much,

Speaker:

thicker wall between business and IT, I could speak both.

Speaker:

And, I just always really enjoyed being able to

Speaker:

bring technical people and business people together and be able to

Speaker:

explain those two things, and that always served me well. And that's how I ended

Speaker:

up in this line of work because I really liked being the being the

Speaker:

connective tissue between those two things. That

Speaker:

is awesome. So what is your favorite part of this

Speaker:

gig? Oh,

Speaker:

okay. So what I will say is that as a consultant, I

Speaker:

get to, be a part of lots of

Speaker:

different kinds of companies. So I did work. I worked corporate

Speaker:

and, you know, client side for most of my career. I started

Speaker:

consulting about, 6 years ago,

Speaker:

and and

Speaker:

I would get impatient when I would work with companies. I'd work there for a

Speaker:

while, and then I'd be like, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. What's next? Like you know? And

Speaker:

I I worked a couple places long time, for a long time. My longest gig

Speaker:

was 8 years at one company, and that was fine. But, really, in those 8

Speaker:

years at that one company, it was Capella University. I had 5 jobs in

Speaker:

8 years, so it was never too long. Right? Like, I kinda I get antsy

Speaker:

after a while. And what I really like about consulting is my

Speaker:

ability to go in, learn a ton about a company and a

Speaker:

culture and meet all these different kinds of people and feel like I really get

Speaker:

to experience what it's like working in and with different companies,

Speaker:

but not but then being able to kinda, like, jump around. It's like a sampler.

Speaker:

Right? And I love that because I really find organizations fascinating.

Speaker:

And so it's that's my favorite part.

Speaker:

Interesting. So we have 3 complete the

Speaker:

sentences. The first of 3 is complete the sentence. When I'm not

Speaker:

working, I enjoy blank.

Speaker:

This one is hard because I work a lot.

Speaker:

So I'm gonna say I really enjoy

Speaker:

reading. So I'm a big reader, and I know you have some questions about books

Speaker:

later, so I'll just leave that one. I really enjoy reading.

Speaker:

Cool. So our second one is, I

Speaker:

think the coolest thing in technology today is

Speaker:

blank. I I'm gonna answer this

Speaker:

one with how easy it is to experiment. So especially with things

Speaker:

we talked about like chat gpt and AI, There's such a

Speaker:

low barrier to entry. Like, just being able to go and, like,

Speaker:

play around with stuff and experiment with it. I I think

Speaker:

that's fantastic. You know, again, 15, 20 years ago, you would have had to

Speaker:

have had special access to a university computer or whatever to

Speaker:

be able to do some of this stuff. And now it's just so easy to

Speaker:

just experiment and try things out. I see that with my kids too. I just

Speaker:

love it. That's

Speaker:

cool. And the 3rd and final complete the sentence

Speaker:

is, I look forward to the day when I can use technology to blank.

Speaker:

Okay. I have given this thought. I want a

Speaker:

fully integrated solution of laundry from

Speaker:

hamper to washer to dryer back

Speaker:

to drawers. Like, I don't even wanna touch it. Like, it has to be like

Speaker:

a like a closed system. I don't wanna touch it. I hate

Speaker:

doing laundry. It's like my least favorite thing. I've tried outsourcing as

Speaker:

much of it as possible, but at some point, I do have put it away.

Speaker:

And, like, I have to, like, touch it. And I just I wanna I want,

Speaker:

like, an a totally closed system. That's what I want.

Speaker:

I I have 3 I have 3 boys, and I totally get it. Yes. Yeah.

Speaker:

Yeah. Yeah. You know. Okay. Yeah.

Speaker:

So our next is, share something different about

Speaker:

yourself, but we remind all our guests we're trying to keep our clean rating.

Speaker:

Sure. Of course. Just so you know. Well so I will

Speaker:

share this, and it's something kind of new that I'm really enjoying.

Speaker:

My, oldest son is a freshman,

Speaker:

at in high school, and he has joined his robotics

Speaker:

team. Oh, cool. And they are entering

Speaker:

their big competitive season. And in fact,

Speaker:

he is going off to a regional competition

Speaker:

overnight, leaving his mother. I have to put him on a bus. Oh,

Speaker:

no. Oh, no. It's okay. It's okay.

Speaker:

He's done overnight camps before, so, like, we've been I've at least he's

Speaker:

been away from his mama before, but, but he had his

Speaker:

first kinda big competition. They kinda had a practice this last weekend, and he

Speaker:

was he's kind of a big deal on the team, and I'm very

Speaker:

proud of him. And, like, learning all about robotics competition, which is a

Speaker:

big national organization, and I'm really kinda

Speaker:

into it. And so we are a robot robotics family, and it's very

Speaker:

exciting. So That's very cool. Very cool. My

Speaker:

oldest is going to be a freshman in high school, and I was

Speaker:

telling them the other day, like, he's ready. I'm not ready.

Speaker:

Yeah. Just you wait until driver's ed hits, and then it's like a whole

Speaker:

other level. I'm not there yet. I'm I

Speaker:

was hoping for autonomous cars to solve the problem, but

Speaker:

I'm running out of time. Yeah.

Speaker:

You did drop the, the the hint about books. So Audible is

Speaker:

a sponsor. What books can you recommend? Well, I will tell you,

Speaker:

I think my family may may be the top,

Speaker:

purchaser from Audible because all 3 of my all 3 of my boys, my

Speaker:

husband and my 2 sons, like, we have the

Speaker:

annual subscription for Audible, and it might last us 2 months

Speaker:

Nice. By the rate that they read read audibles.

Speaker:

Personally, I personally am a big romance novel,

Speaker:

reader, which, I take I share openly.

Speaker:

No shame. And so for the romance readers out there, I will

Speaker:

tell you that the Penny Reid series, the the

Speaker:

beard series. So, Andy, I will tell you, you have quite a good beard.

Speaker:

It's a romance novel, and it's the beard series by Penny Reid. It's

Speaker:

absolutely wonderful, very funny, very sweet,

Speaker:

not suitable for this podcast if it's a family podcast because

Speaker:

it's a little steamy, but it is very good and very sweet. So

Speaker:

That's awesome. That's awesome. You can go to the data driven book dot com or

Speaker:

the data driven book dot com, depending how you wanna pronounce it. You'll get,

Speaker:

one free audio book on us. And, you know, and

Speaker:

if you subscribe and become a permanent annual, or monthly

Speaker:

subscriber, we'll get a little bit of kickback and, help

Speaker:

support the show. And the reason why this is actually funny. The reason

Speaker:

why we kind of are fairly strict not

Speaker:

strict, but we're we're sticking to our guns, so to speak on the

Speaker:

whole profanity thing is largely because obviously there's a professional

Speaker:

image, but largely because I like to listen

Speaker:

to some podcasts, and I can't do that when the kids are in the car.

Speaker:

So it kind of becomes this. It's more of a flexibility thing as opposed

Speaker:

to Totally. You know? Obviously,

Speaker:

I guess those those novels you probably wouldn't be listening to with the kids in

Speaker:

the car. You might those might be better for after the

Speaker:

kids go to bed and you're having Exactly. Time. You know?

Speaker:

I'm just saying, but that'll be fine.

Speaker:

Yeah. So where can folks find I'm sorry, Anne. This was your question. Go

Speaker:

ahead. No. I was just can't stop talking today. Where can

Speaker:

folks find out more about you and what you do? So the,

Speaker:

the easiest place is www.tuck point.com.

Speaker:

It's probably the easiest point part, place.

Speaker:

And then also on LinkedIn, I'm at, the at

Speaker:

jg Swanson. I assume you'll have both on your show notes and things like that.

Speaker:

Make sure we put that on the show notes. Yeah. Both of those places. So

Speaker:

either for the company or for me personally, those are the 2 easiest

Speaker:

places. Cool. Sounds good. Any parting thoughts?

Speaker:

No. But you guys are delightful. I just just spent this has been a nice

Speaker:

hour to spend with you. I just have loved it. So Well, thank you.

Speaker:

Thank you. We I really appreciate you

Speaker:

illuminating a lot of mysteries that I just assumed were just

Speaker:

part of just that was just the cost of doing business was dealing with these

Speaker:

kind of weird stuff or being in IT. Right? Being one of those weird people

Speaker:

in the basement thing. Like and and and now I kinda I have a lot

Speaker:

more therapy is a great analogy. I I you know, because it's like Yeah. I

Speaker:

know. You walk out of a good therapy section, you're like, that's why. Like, that's

Speaker:

what I feel right now. Yeah. Yeah. Good. It was really good. And I scored

Speaker:

a compliment on the beard. You know, that's always a win. It's a very good

Speaker:

beard. I really like it. I'm digging it. Thank you.

Speaker:

It was a great show, for us as well, and I can't wait

Speaker:

for our listeners to, to get a chance to see it. We just,

Speaker:

launched a new service earlier this week, in fact, where people can

Speaker:

subscribe and see videos. These videos behind the scenes,

Speaker:

they've been asking for that for, what, Frank? 7 years

Speaker:

since we started. And we wanted to do it. When

Speaker:

we started. We first started talking about it. We were like, this is this would

Speaker:

be great. And then we just found a platform and the stars

Speaker:

align, and we relaunched, like I said earlier this week. I don't think we

Speaker:

even have any subscribers yet. I I'm a little probably a little too

Speaker:

transparent in that, but we'll see. It's either

Speaker:

look. It's either this is the way we roll. I'll go and subscribe. I'll be

Speaker:

your first. Awesome. Woo hoo. That'd be kind. But it's you know, the

Speaker:

way we look at things a lot of the time is it's like it's an

Speaker:

experiment. You mentioned that earlier when you were talking to your clients. She's that you

Speaker:

do a lot of experiments and see how things roll. Well, if we get

Speaker:

one, awesome. If we get a 100, that'd be nice. You know? But

Speaker:

Yeah. We started the podcast, and we thought we were gonna do, I

Speaker:

don't know what, Frank, 10 episodes. And this is gonna be this is

Speaker:

gonna be around 375 or something like that. Yeah. 348, 3

Speaker:

3. Okay. So almost almost 360, basically. We're Yeah. We're gonna

Speaker:

we're gonna do a 360 retrospective for show 3 60. Sorry. I

Speaker:

spoiled the surprise everyone, but That's okay. It's a good tease.

Speaker:

It's a good tease. That's right. That's right.

Speaker:

Awesome. Cool. Well, thank you so much for having me, you guys. I really enjoyed

Speaker:

it. Thanks. It was great show, and we'll let Bailey finish the show. Awesome.

Speaker:

Thank you, Jennifer, for an excellent show. No longer

Speaker:

will I cringe when someone says digital transformation now that I understand

Speaker:

the true meaning on the term. We know you're busy and we

Speaker:

appreciate you listening to our podcast. But we have a

Speaker:

favor to ask. Please rate and review our podcast on

Speaker:

Itunes, Stitcher, or wherever you subscribe to us.

Speaker:

You have subscribed to us, haven't you? Having high

Speaker:

ratings and reviews helps us improve the quality of our show and rank us

Speaker:

more favorably with the search algorithms. That means

Speaker:

more people listen to us, spreading the joy. And,

Speaker:

can't the world use a little more joy these days?

Speaker:

So, go do your part to make the world just a little better and be

Speaker:

sure to rate and review the show. Until next time,

Speaker:

this is Bailey signing off.

Links

Chapters

Video

More from YouTube