Transcripts
Hey, Meg, let's do a podcast. That's a great idea. What should
Speaker:we talk about?
Speaker:All right, I'm just going to jump right into this. Every industry has its
Speaker:buzzwords, and what I always find interesting is that
Speaker:sometimes how people in the industry define those
Speaker:buzzwords differs widely. It's like
Speaker:instructional design. That's a whole rabbit hole we're not going to go down. I want
Speaker:to talk about learning ecosystems today, in part because
Speaker:you and I, who otherwise think so similar in
Speaker:so many respects, came at this one from two
Speaker:totally different directions. Yes. Yeah. And I actually remember
Speaker:the first time that we talked about this because I had just given
Speaker:a presentation at Devlearn and it was on
Speaker:learner journey mapping. And Sam Degas and I have done
Speaker:this workshop a couple different times, and we talk not
Speaker:just about the learner's journey, but also the
Speaker:entire ecosystem of things that support that
Speaker:learner through their journey. So we're talking about the people, the
Speaker:processes, and the technology that helps them to
Speaker:be successful in what they're, they're learning,
Speaker:but also in what they're doing, going to then perform and do on the
Speaker:job. And so
Speaker:that is my way about thinking about learning ecosystems. And I remember
Speaker:you came to me and you're like, you know what? I thought you were just
Speaker:going to talk about the technology piece and
Speaker:just the systems, but it's broader than that, isn't it? And I was
Speaker:like, I think it is, Megan. I know. I was like, where are the LMS?
Speaker:Where's the data? Yeah. Yep, yep.
Speaker:And, you know, as we were preparing to have this conversation,
Speaker:I also thought, I'm gonna go out and see what the rest of
Speaker:the world thinks, too. And so I asked my good friend Google,
Speaker:and I asked my good friend Chat. GPT well, we're
Speaker:not quite good friends yet, but we're getting there. I
Speaker:said, describe for me what's a learning ecosystem.
Speaker:Give me three different ways, emphasize different aspects of it, and chat
Speaker:GPT came back with one way to
Speaker:describe it from a technology aspect, another from community
Speaker:and social aspect. And the third way was organizational and
Speaker:policy. And I was like, that's exactly it. It's the people, processes and
Speaker:technology. I also found some other stuff around
Speaker:culture that could be people, too. Content,
Speaker:strategy, data, governance. So it's a lot of
Speaker:things. It's all the things. It's kind of whatever you
Speaker:want it to be. Could it be? It could be,
Speaker:yes, I think so. Well, and so this is helpful, though.
Speaker:So it's not just me, it's not just you right.
Speaker:There's lots of different ways to define it. I showed up, I remember, to
Speaker:rob Brodnick's learning ecosystem project. I was
Speaker:so excited. And yeah, I showed up with my lmss and my
Speaker:data lakes and I was all ready to geek out. And all of a sudden
Speaker:we're talking about social identities and student life,
Speaker:economic ecosystems. And I thought, I have landed on the wrong
Speaker:place. But they all. I mean, by the end of the session, it all made
Speaker:sense. It was just a bigger place than I had landed.
Speaker:So in our work, Meg, you and I have worked now with several
Speaker:organizations in their ecosystem strategy,
Speaker:and we always start
Speaker:with describing the current state as
Speaker:a good place to get started. And what
Speaker:is some of the things that you find that, that brings to that project?
Speaker:What's the value there? Yeah. So
Speaker:starting there allows you to really get
Speaker:a lay of the land and see do you have the right elements in
Speaker:place to achieve the goals that your organization is setting out to
Speaker:achieve? As a broad organization, but
Speaker:also with learners specifically, you can
Speaker:also start to get a sense for, are there
Speaker:gaps that need to be addressed? Are there
Speaker:redundancies? Are you one of those very, very large
Speaker:organizations out there that has six lmss
Speaker:and maybe you don't quite need
Speaker:all of those, or maybe each one of those is serving a very specific
Speaker:need and somebody higher up is saying, like, ask
Speaker:the lmss. And no, really what you find by mapping that
Speaker:current state is they're all necessary for different
Speaker:reasons. Maybe you'll find some inefficiencies or things that
Speaker:you could do better. Maybe you'll find that there's
Speaker:something in the environment, in the ecosystem that
Speaker:is holding you back from being able to reach your goals. So
Speaker:I think that's why starting with the current state can really
Speaker:get you a long way. And we had a project
Speaker:recently where we ended up with a really creative way of,
Speaker:an insightful way of looking at
Speaker:their learning ecosystem. And we actually looked beyond
Speaker:just learning. We looked at a lot of depth. There were things on that learning
Speaker:ecosystem that I don't see in a lot of places.
Speaker:Walk me through that one. Sure. Knowing that this is an
Speaker:audio and we're walking through a picture, everybody. There's a lot of hand waving going
Speaker:on. It's true. Yeah.
Speaker:So this particular project, we started by
Speaker:looking at all the different layers. So
Speaker:the learner has their layer and they can see,
Speaker:they see how they access things, the devices that they're using
Speaker:and the systems that they're using for that, the systems that are used to
Speaker:deliver. So that might be the learning management system
Speaker:or a data dashboard that they would see. So
Speaker:those are the learner visible aspects. And then below
Speaker:that, there's also the things they don't see.
Speaker:There's all the tools that are used to create the content.
Speaker:There's the content management, there's the content authoring,
Speaker:analysis and visualization that's happening with your data. And also
Speaker:a data management layer, skills, taxonomies and
Speaker:how the data is being aggregated and transformed
Speaker:to be able to serve up those visualizations and provide
Speaker:insights to leaders or to even to learners
Speaker:themselves. And then below that and kind of
Speaker:spanning across as well is all the things that enable
Speaker:the learning to take place. And so that might have something to do with
Speaker:AI or it's learning ops and project management.
Speaker:There's all sorts of things that might enable that learning to take
Speaker:place, even language and translation. That needs to
Speaker:happen. And so what we did was
Speaker:we identified all these different aspects
Speaker:and also laid them out in a
Speaker:matrixed approach to look at how that
Speaker:spans across the employee's lifecycle from
Speaker:the very start of their journey with you as an organization, when they're
Speaker:being attracted to your
Speaker:organization, also when retaining them as part of
Speaker:your, and then training
Speaker:them, getting them up to speed to when they're performing on the job.
Speaker:And how will all of that,
Speaker:all of those different pieces of the ecosystem interact with them. And
Speaker:then we really focused in, because we were working with the learning organization,
Speaker:we really focused in on that middle section
Speaker:of getting them up to speed and training them. When I think what
Speaker:was really cool about that project, because yes, we focused in
Speaker:on the learning part of the ecosystem, but as we
Speaker:drew that, we found there were pieces and tools
Speaker:that bled over into the attract, grow, retain,
Speaker:kind of the more HR and OD side of things and on the performance side
Speaker:of things that were going to hint that we needed to connect with other
Speaker:people, not just the learning folks in the organization. So that was
Speaker:super cool. Yeah, absolutely. I think that speaks to getting
Speaker:all the right people at the table to talk about this and look
Speaker:at it as well. You're going to need to, in this
Speaker:process of mapping the ecosystem,
Speaker:think about who your stakeholders are and bring them in
Speaker:and having this visual, that's one of the key things
Speaker:about ecosystem mapping, is you can start
Speaker:to have a visual that everybody can come around,
Speaker:stand around or on a computer look
Speaker:at together to have that common
Speaker:shared visual and shared language for what
Speaker:you have in front of you to deal with. And that's super
Speaker:super powerful. Yeah. So, all
Speaker:right. We can't really talk about learning ecosystems
Speaker:without talking about JD Dillon's book, the Modern Learning Ecosystem.
Speaker:Totally run out and grab that. But you've recently seen him
Speaker:talk, haven't you? I did, yes. We here in
Speaker:Ann Arbor had the pleasure of welcoming him to our
Speaker:local ATD chapter. He joined us
Speaker:virtually for one night and
Speaker:he got to talk to us about how AI is going to
Speaker:be interacting with and changing the modern learning
Speaker:ecosystem. And he shared his framework with us as
Speaker:well. And so his framework is really looking at the
Speaker:different modalities that are used for,
Speaker:for learning. And he's mapped those across,
Speaker:or he sort of stacks them up depending on
Speaker:the level of structure of that particular
Speaker:learning modality, and then also looks at the
Speaker:availability of that learning. So that's
Speaker:really a little bit more focused than what
Speaker:we have been talking about with learner ecosystem
Speaker:mapping. But I think also
Speaker:holds a lot of value to think about it using that framework. Well, and
Speaker:that graphic is super powerful, and we should include
Speaker:a picture of that graphic in the show notes because
Speaker:it really captures his point of view on things. And his work is all around
Speaker:frontline wernickers, and that's really his history.
Speaker:How structured is it and how can I get to it
Speaker:really makes sense in what he's doing.
Speaker:Meg, as I think about this conversation, as I think about the
Speaker:way you and I work at this together, what's always
Speaker:interesting is how just you and I work together
Speaker:on this, right? So I am, I
Speaker:move fast, I wave my hands around, I jump up and draw on
Speaker:whiteboards. And I'm
Speaker:one of those fast thinker people who can work the room, pull together a visual,
Speaker:and then you're the one who comes in and you think through it
Speaker:so carefully and deeply, and you find all the holes in that first
Speaker:draft thinking that we had, and you put the polish on
Speaker:it, but also you connect the dots.
Speaker:So you and I are coming at this from not only
Speaker:different perspectives on the ecosystem itself, but
Speaker:just on the work of doing that visual itself. Are
Speaker:there lessons for other people here? Yeah, I think there
Speaker:are. You know, the process itself can often
Speaker:bring more questions than it answers.
Speaker:And so bringing together people who
Speaker:are, who are thinking big and can help
Speaker:you with your divergent thinking,
Speaker:that will be really important. But then you also need those people in the
Speaker:room who are going to be deep processors, who are going
Speaker:to really hone in on
Speaker:details and think about all the implications of
Speaker:one thing or another. And so
Speaker:having a bunch of people and diverse
Speaker:people in the room, especially in the way that they think
Speaker:and process information, I think is really helpful.
Speaker:So you're just saying I should be a little bit more patient with things.
Speaker:Yeah, probably.
Speaker:Okay, so, Meg, seriously, we talk about ecosystems, but does that have anything
Speaker:to do with, like, the natural ecosystems we learned about in elementary school?
Speaker:So I think it's funny to think about that, because
Speaker:if you recall, my graduate
Speaker:education is in environmental studies, and so it's funny for
Speaker:me to be coming, like, back around and being like, oh, we're talking about
Speaker:ecosystems. But I think there could be some
Speaker:analogies or metaphors that we bring through there. I think
Speaker:probably the most obvious one would be like that. It's a web, and
Speaker:everything is interconnected. And so if you're going to be
Speaker:changing one thing in your learning ecosystem, it's going
Speaker:to potentially shift or adjust
Speaker:or have an effect on another piece of your learning ecosystem.
Speaker:And without having things mapped out,
Speaker:when you're making those changes, you could very easily
Speaker:be doing things in the dark and not know kind of the full
Speaker:implications of things as you're moving them around.
Speaker:So how'd that one go, Meg? I think it was pretty good.
Speaker:I think there could be a lot more. We could probably have
Speaker:more episodes on ecosystem mapping, but I
Speaker:feel good about that. It's a good place to start. We like it. Yeah. High
Speaker:five. This is Megan Torrance with Meg Fairchild,
Speaker:and this has been a podcast by Torrance Learning. Tangents is the official
Speaker:podcast of Torrance Learning, as though we have an unofficial one.
Speaker:Tangents is hosted by Meg Fairchild and Megan Torrance. It's produced and
Speaker:edited by Dean Castile with original music also by Dean
Speaker:Castile. This episode was fact checked by Meg Fairchild.
