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 Thanks for joining us on this week in Health IT Influence. My name is Bill Russell, former Healthcare CIO for 16 hospital system and creator of this week in Health. IT a channel dedicated to keeping health IT staff current and engaged. Today we have a returning guest, CIO and CDO for SCL Health, Craig, Richard V, and we have a great conversation about really that C-I-O-C-D-O title, what that means, what it means to lead digital, what it means to lead digital as ACIO as well, what, how all these things are starting to work together.

So great, great conversation with Craig. We've introduced a new podcast onto this week in Health IT channel today in Health it. This is a place where we recap a new story and we break it down every weekday morning. I'm excited that we are able to take those conversations we're having on LinkedIn and go one step further and really examine this.

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Today we are joined by CIO and CDO for SCL Health. Former guest of the show friend, Craig. Richard. Craig, welcome. Welcome back to the show. Bill, thank you. It's a, uh, pleasure to be here. Yeah. I'm looking forward to this conversation. So, uh, you made the move from North Carolina to Colorado. Tell people what it's, you know, I, I love North Carolina and I assume you did as well.

Colorado's pretty nice too. Yeah, it, uh, you know, I spent 20 years, over 20 years in North Carolina and really enjoyed the people, enjoyed the weather. Just a really, a beautiful place to live and come out to Colorado. It's a lot different. It's very much wide open. It's sunny all the time. Uh, you don't have the humidity.

So the summers are extremely comfortable and really enjoying it out here in the West. Yeah. People, people think you're kidding when you say it's sunny, but it is sunny in Denver. I, I can't, there's very few times, uh, outside of the days that the snow was falling. I don't remember too many days I was in, in Denver where it wasn't sunny.

Yeah. , you got that right. It's, it's amazing. Alright, well tell us a little bit about SCL Health. Yeah. SEL Health is a, uh, $3 billion Catholic, uh, faith-based organization. It's Mission-driven. It is, uh, provides services, uh, primarily in Colorado and Montana, and we still have some services in Kansas. So you have the CC.

And I want, I want to go down that digital path. How did digital support s. Yeah, digital was, was integral and we were fortunate that we had already started to bring those services together. So when you look at some of the things that evolve around digital chatbot services, so the way that we could automate communication and, and get knowledge back out to our associates, to our communities to allow that to occur.

Some of the, uh. Different campaigns for us on not only traditional campaigns, but but more text and more interactive campaigns. Again, to educate and provide those kinds of service. I really at a time that I. Information was not as readily available. So once you received it, you really need to get it out quicker.

So all those kinds of things fell into play. And when we developed our digital strategy bill, we broke it into several different components because some people look at the digital and they focus on the consumer, and that's really what it's about. And really, we kind of broke it into a handful of different areas.

So we're looking at the provider. We're looking at the consumer, those that already have interactions with us, the patient, uh, our associates, so the development of a digital workforce, a big piece of our work, and also partners. So our vendors, how do we continue to mature those relationships? Yeah. You know, it's, it's, it's interesting.

I was gonna actually back up there and talk about that because I have a lot of CIOs talking about, you know, how do we, you know, we had to do a lot of digital things, digital initiatives, digital. We technologies reach our community to. I.

But a lot of 'em are saying, okay, so now they're asking me for a digital strategy. It's almost backwards. It's like, we had to do all these digital things. Now they're saying, okay, how do all these things knit together? Give us an idea how, how you, you know, you set the direction, you know, funding, buy-in. How did you get all that stuff moving?

Well, it's interesting, you know, if you go back several years. Really almost like a decade or so when people were developing like it, strategic plans. And what was your strategic plan? Uh, there were several of us that really didn't have a strategic plan for it. We, we really looked at it. We have one plan, one strategic plan, and that's the one for the company.

And what we do is we provide systems and services support to help the company achieve or overachieve what their plan was put into place. So as we started creating the whole digital arm for the company, it was the. Chief Marketing Officer, a great person and myself sat down and talked about how we wanted to position this and put it together.

So we actually coover the, uh, the committee that we have for the steering committee for digital. And then what we've done is I then repurposed. An administrative position, uh, a new VP position, and then pulled in a person to fill that role, a totally different way of how they think and mature versus maybe what would be traditional in place on the IT side.

And really then what we do is we put together the, the planning that supports then our system strategy. Interesting. So first.

How did it, so talk a little bit more about how you organized, you have a, you have a, a steering committee or a, a, uh, governance group. Is, is this part of it or is it, or did you keep it separate from it? Is it highly integrated? What, what does it look like? Well, I'd say, you know, the culture here is very collaborative and we don't really draw a lot of different lines, but so the way that we part this together was really just sitting down.

We wanted to make sure that it was a focus of the work, and so we created a steering committee. It's a digital services steering committee. Salesforce, for example, is a component of that. Steering committee. And then what we did is we looked at the different resources that we had in the company and we brought all the resources together, the human resources and the budgets that go along with that.

And we put all that into one area and we moved that into it. And so, and actual, we changed our name from it to it TDS. So we're information technology and digital services. And with that, what we did was we didn't add to our current investment. What we did was I repurposed positions, several different of our administrative positions.

I created an opportunity for a digital vice president. I. Position and then we filled that position with somebody from the outside to come in to lead that now newly merged team that's coming together. But when we look at the steering committee that we put together, there's the person there that's for communication.

There's a person there that runs marketing, uh, strategies there. Some of our operational groups are there. So it really is a very . Multidisciplinary group coming together all are the purposes of digital services. Yeah. What's the VP of Digital services? Gimme an idea of what that, what that role, job description looks like.

Yeah. Well, it's like most of our job descriptions, descriptions, , it's, it's everything. It's right, it's everything. But she really has a very unique focus, so. She really is looking at different things, and I'll just throw out a couple of different buzzwords. So chatbot services we kind of put in there, for example, artificial intelligence and machine learning.

We put that within digital services. When you look at Salesforce, all the things that we're doing with communicating with patients and with. Our providers and with our consumers and trying to draw new patients. All that is within digital services. If you look at a couple of the other kinda workflow items, like robotic process automation that is within digital services chatbots that is within digital services.

So it's very encompassing of a lot of the new work, uh, that's happening within healthcare. And some of that is, is obviously, you know, stealing from some of the other industries that may have done this a few years earlier. Yeah. You know, Craig, I and you, you spent a lot of time talking to people outside of, of healthcare and looking at what they've done.

Is, is the C-D-O-C-I-O role pretty natural? I mean, and is it pretty common outside of, outside of healthcare? Yeah, it is. Bill, you know, it's, it's interesting you, you see, depending upon the company and the culture and, and the evolution and where they're at, I. You see some companies, a lot of people with chief titles, so they may have a chief data officer, a chief analytics officer, a chief experience officer, a consumer officer, or you have people, you know, like how we're doing it here.

Uh, not as many chiefs, but we're actually taking the roles and bringing up. Under a single person versus having a lot of different individual areas. So I think for me, I, I think it's a natural evolution to me, just like data and analytics was a natural evolution in a previous life, I actually was also the analytics officer in addition to the CIO.

But to me, some of that could all be just governed up under ACIO. I think what you see in outside of healthcare, you see a little bit more maybe on a technology officer . Or maybe even the digital officer overseeing ACIO, for example. But the way that we are evolving within healthcare, you've got things of data and analytics.

You've got the digital, you've got transformation, innovation. Those are things that to me, are just a natural evolution of the role and the responsibilities. Yeah, and they're, they're tightly integrated. There's so many dependencies. Actually, that's the the direction I wanted to go. I mean, traditional, it has all these operational components and what I've seen, uh, in my experience also from, you know, you, you kick off those digital initiatives and you bring in that expertise.

They look at it and they go, you know what? I need. I need APIs, I need data transparency. I need, uh, data liquidity. I need, I, they start talking in all these new terms. And sometimes there's sort of a shock to the, uh, foundational operation of healthcare. It. I mean, did you find that, you know, digital is leading you to transform the, the backend as well?

It is. And that is really kind of gearing us a lot more toward the development and what I'm talking about, the backend, you know, we're developing an SEL health Cloud and that Health Cloud will now be a, a mixture of a public cloud on-prem kinda work things that are software as a service really starts to evolve what that backend, uh, support area looks like.

But then you start gearing into other things. So we're actually going through a whole thing about what the, uh. The provider and the employee tool set's gonna look like are starting to collapsing, you know, some of the voice and data services together in a single device. Having to be more of a mobile device, trying to build a lot more artificial intelligence into that work too.

Again, to help support the provider or support the associate. So it's really kind of all getting into the backend pieces of what gets provided back out, as well as moving ourselves out into the consumer or in the patient world. Yep. Yeah. Are, are there technologies that you currently have your eye on that you're tracking in, in the digital space?

Yeah. You know, I mentioned earlier, you know, chatbots obviously, you know, people are throwing those things out there. And we're very, also, I have a volume of chatbots that we're creating. I do think robotic process automation, so for me, I'm kind of defining some of that work as a digital workforce. How do we really start to take the human component, make it more advanced by taking a lot of the

Robotic type services that we provide. Really automating that and making a lot, uh, better, faster, and easier, not only for our associates, but equally are more important for our patients or consumers. Our pro, our potential new patients coming in. Artificial intelligence I think is gonna be a big thing for us.

We're looking at a lot of things on the voice side, so for me, voice and we all experience in our personal life, it's kinda like the next user interface. You know, people say things to the Alexa or to Google Home. Voice really becomes that, that next way of how to do it, you do it in your cars when you wanna get to a certain location or change a radio station, your voice can make all that happen.

And so we're doing that here obviously as an interface, but also at in terms of the AI piece is really interpreting conversations and really starting to look at how do we interpret the conversation that's happening, for example, between a patient and provider and take that into a medical note with no human intervention.

So how do we continue to train kind of more of a, take the a human scribe and put him or her into a digital scribe. So there's really no human, but it's actually the machine is learning based upon the conversation, what the output should look like and then presenting that output back out. Yeah. I love, well, first of all, I love that terminology of digital workforce.

I also like just the concept that digital isn't consumer started elaborate on. What digital look like. Yeah. Gimme an idea. If we've fast forward five years from the different perspectives you're looking at this, you just talked about from the clinician perspective, you know that digital will come alongside them and help them to be more effective and more productive.

Are there other sort of I, I guess, visionary? You know, use cases that you're looking at to say, you know, in five years we would like our health system to look like this on behalf of our patients. Yeah. You know, if you looked at broken down the, the different groups that, uh, I kind of broke out at the beginning, if you look at the provider side, I think for us on the digital side, there certainly would be, uh, a lot more

Artificial intelligence built into a lot of the decision making and how we are offering the data up to providers to make those kinds of decisions, uh, on our patients, and really start to change the outcomes as well as the efficiency of that work. If you look at. On the, the patient side, certainly we want a lot more self-service.

We really want to provide the tools and the, the tool belt to allow the patient to do, uh, his or her work, uh, much more efficiently and really be a bigger piece of the process of health or healthcare. If you look at the consumer side, uh, I think people need choice. They need information to make those choices.

So as we continue to communicate our services, the quality of our services. How we're looking to continue to advance health and healthcare, getting that out to people so they can make those kinds of decisions. So with that also comes a lot of openness and transparency. So when they're comparing for different services, they can compare us easily with our, our competitors as well.

I. And I think as you move more toward the associate side to continue to digitize the workforce, you know, as we're looking at call centers and moving those into the new newer terminology of a contact center, you know, part of that is when you actually have a human intervene. I. Because of a call or a contact that it could be looked at as a failure point.

You know, what is it that that human has that can be automated or digitized to allow that to be better, faster, and easier than having a human intervene on that side. So those are all components I think that are very important as we look at. What the next 2, 3, 5 years might look like. I don't wanna overuse some of the analogies in the past, but when you look at companies like Amazon that was born, you know, in the cloud and that was born in a digital world, you don't have those kind of human interactions.

The machine is actually . Taking care of a lot of those services for you. And I think as we mature, that's gonna be the new norm, one of the new norms that people are gonna expect to have happen in healthcare, just like they've seen it with retail, as I mentioned, or in banking or other types of industries, is gonna be a norm for health and healthcare.

Yeah, the, the meshing of the physical and the digital is, is really interesting.

We completed transaction remotely, digitally, this today, this morning. And I think that that interaction follow regulatory things you guys are tracking at this point. Are you, are you ahead of the game on Transparency rule and 21st Century Cures? Uh. Yeah, we are, you know, we stay very close to that. I will, uh, put a little, um, thing out there for Chime and Chime advocacy.

I'm, I'm a, a member of that group, have been for years, uh, very strong group that, uh, Russ has put together. And so to be part of that, you look at the interoperability when we work ahead of that. A piece for our health system. We knew it was coming. We wanted to make sure that we could not only abide, but really provide the service of the intent of that, uh, data sharing piece and, uh, information blocking and move that off to the side.

I do think there's some new ones coming up with patient identity as well as provider identity. So, you know, historically you could see somebody coming into your office or into your clinic or into your facility. You could validate or verify when they would bring you information, maybe an insurance card or a driver's license.

But as you start to continue to mature more in this virtual world, you know, you may not see. Who that person is on the other line and he or she may not see who you are. So I think as we start to look at patient identity, how do we develop a digital identity so that when Bill Russell, for example, enters our health system, I know it's Bill Russell, and Bill also knows on his side, I.

Who I am as a provider, that you are coming into the right space to receive that, that level of service. So I think all that's coming in together. We're working with a couple of companies, ping Identity, Imprivata, some of these really more established and newer thinking companies are really helping us start to move ourselves into that direction.

And Colorado, for example, really is the only state at the moment that actually has a digital driver's license. And that's validated with verified within any part within the state of Colorado. I can't use it when I go to TSA or travel or move outside the state, both in the state, that license is on my phone.

And I think that is a way that we need to continue to mature ourselves to look at identification and reduce the duplicates that do occur. Yeah. You know, people think the patient id, oh, that makes perfect sense. Why have we done this? Complexity to it. I mean, you talk about the digital identity and the need still for a, a physical id.

We had a significant illegal immigrant population in Southern California that didn't wanna be identified, but we had to identify them when they came into the health system. And so we had records that. Helped us to try to match, but still matching was, was very challenging. And then you have privacy. It, it, it's such, uh, you know, it, it's, you look at it and you go, yeah, a, a record that identifies the person so that we have the complete medical record together.

Well, you know, uh, you still have to operate, uh, as a business. And I was very fortunate the things that we had put together as part of our support plan to help support our system strategy. Some of it got accelerated that we talked about, like on the digital side, which I think is great on the virtual side, which is absolutely excellent.

They were really starting to move ourselves into that. But also the other work that we had, so for example, we're right in the midst of an epic refuel project, so we just kicked that off. . In the last month, and so we got about 20 months of an epic refuel investment, which is really getting us back to foundation.

So a lot of that work will be continuing in 21 and going into 22. We did receive approval last year to replace our ERP system, so we're moving from Lawson to Oracle, ERB Cloud. We actually go live. April 2nd of this year. So we're in the fourth quarter of that implementation. So that continued throughout.

Covid put a little pressure in some areas, primarily supply chain, but we're overcoming those and we're getting prepared for go live here in about 10 weeks. We did go through talking about the digital space and some of our partnerships. We got approval last year to move forward with the Salesforce Health Cloud.

So actually we plan on implementing that and going live, but right in the midst of that, we'll be going live in the early second quarter of this year with the Health Cloud, uh, concept, which really . Gives you more of the opportunity for 360 view of, uh, the patient or the consumer of the different campaigns you may have offered him or her, the different ways that they've entered into your healthcare system and really start to personalize, uh, that relationship.

We're also, as I mentioned a little bit earlier about our contact center, really moving away from our call center approach into a contact center approach, and then Google. And as some of our, uh, with our, as we do the SCL Health Cloud, Google will be a big component of that piece. That's our technology partner.

We use them for office productivity, which we made that transition last year. But we're also gonna be our, our cloud platform as we continue to move forward. And then you've got the pieces that, you know, that happened a lot with Covid, with, uh, remote workforce and telehealth and all the different virtual ways.

Not only are we operating. Virtually as a company, but also providing services to our patients. So you guys really aren't doing it a lot then you're, you're pretty much just resting on your laurels and No, seriously, I mean, I.

I mean an epic refuel, uh, an ERP implementation coming up. C rmm, well, bigger than cm. The health Cloud is, uh, cm as a, as a base, but a lot of other things integrated into that. Those in and of themselves are all major initiatives, and you're a 3 billion health system. You know, how are you, how are you balancing all that, given that, you know, we're in a pandemic year as well?

Yeah. Well those are all things that as we continue to move through the pandemic and come out of them, there are things that we want to make sure we have in place, that we do have, you know, the more modern. Epic environment for EHR as well as our revenue cycle. We look at the the ERP system, you know, when you go back to something that was installed 20 years ago and now you're modernizing that with that comes to a lot of efficiencies.

You know, not only the backend, but also the number of different . Software applications, uh, we're gonna be sunset dozens of, uh, add-ons that were put into the old environment. The new environment takes care of that. Then when you look at these, you know, as you know, many of the things that we did, we actually just did a Kronos uh, cloud implementation as well, is they are now being served up in a cloud environment.

So that backend, . Question that you ask. It actually UPS ease some of the pressure on our data centers and the way that we are accessing that data. Because know these are naturally now born in and up into the cloud type services. So accessibility and reliability and all those different pieces now are really kind of coming into place for us, and they're all leading us into the right direction.

Do you have like a, do you have a, like a cloud architect? Who's looking at how all these things are gonna tie together. We actually just hired a, a new guy a few weeks ago, somebody who actually I had worked with in the past. Brilliant gentleman, and he will be helping us to more of the details of the architect.

We're actually going through the whole business case as we speak, and I think that's gonna take us a good two to three months to really get that . Socialize out there, understand what some of the investments are going to be, what some of the savings are gonna be, some of the impacts on . The staffing that we have here, as well as how the service is gonna continue to come back out and be more resilient for us as well.

So a lot of really good things coming into place, and we will see that continuing to evolve as the technology evolves and our partners evolve. But really what we're doing is we're shrinking. The number of different partners that we have, and we're taking the partners that we do have and expanding their roles and responsibilities.

And so for that, I think that will actually make it the administrative part even a lot easier. Yeah. So you're hiring people. Let, let's talk a little bit about remote work. Uh, how is, how does hiring change and in culturally, typically when you hire somebody, there's a, an introduction to the organization.

You know, how has hiring changed? How has making people a part of the culture changed, uh, in this time of remote work? Yeah, that's interesting. I think, you know, when you look at ourselves and, and others, certainly human resources is really gonna be even a, a more of a, a critical strategic partner in helping the healthcare system, in this case to continue to evolve and to.

Succeed because when you look at, uh, retention of existing people, you look at the recruitment that you're talking about, new people coming into place, a replacement of individuals or positions we have within my area. Last year when all this was happening, we, we intentionally went through that every single position that we had, and we classified 'em that this could be a virtual position or an in-person or onsite position.

And we went through all of that. And then we just, then we looked to see who were in those roles. And we had some that were mixed. Uh, and some of those were for good reasons, for good personal reasons, uh, or professional reasons that he or she wanted to be on site, even though the position could be anywhere in the country or the person was expected to be on site and the leadership role, for example.

But because of other personal circumstances here, she had to be. Somewhere else, uh, in order to, uh, fill that role. So we intentionally identified all of that and that when you look at how we look at recruitment coming in and new people coming to be part of the organization, that retention piece, it does become a very

A very tough role. It's a new challenge for us of how we can stay connected. So I actually offer Cokes with Craig, which are kind of open form type things. I also have coffees with Craig for the morning. Same, similar type stuff we do every week. We have a. Open lunch, so we get maybe 50, 60 up to a hundred people that will just come in and just have lunch.

And the thing that I've seen when I first came here two years ago, most of the questions and the open formed and the way that we connected, and also I'm on chat all the time, so there's chats that's happening continuously. It, it really was more about. On the professional side and what you're seeing now is kind of a transition.

We talk more about cars or boating or children or anything you can think of. It's, it's interesting how I think as a, as a culture, as a division, certainly within my scope, we're starting to talk a little bit more about the person. And less, more about the profession. And I find that an interesting transition because really when you look at people at home, like for example, yourself, I can see some of the things in your background, the things that you like, the things that you're proud of, and you can see that now in other people's lives.

And so when a little child walks through, or a dog or a cat comes flying through the, the video. People will pause and they'll say, Hey, tell me a little bit, or Bring her back, or bring him back in this chat. It's really becoming a lot more personal and I think that's a big advantage to really create that kind of culture that you're really caring about the person as much as you are about the position.

Yeah. You know, we used to have like, uh, bring your kid to work day. And now every day is bring your kid to Workday. It feels like it's, uh, I've gotten, I've, I've gotten to know people at a different level. It's been, uh, yeah, it's been really interesting. I, I noticed though, you're, you're in the office, so I'm, is that a, is that a conscious decision on your part?

It is. I'm, I'm five minutes away, so I'm just right around the corner and it's comfortable and there's a few of us that have come in on a regular basis throughout the pandemic. Uh, officially we're, we're closed. The building's closed. You have to have an exception to, to come into the office or a reason why.

So we're watching it very close and making sure that all the social distancing and all the pieces that are in place are really being lived here when people are coming into the, into the, our, our buildings. But I do enjoy coming in and being part of this. I've worked at home, I think Bill, maybe two days.

And I, and, and I enjoyed it. But really I, for me to get up, get going, coming in, it's just part of my routine. And, you know, part of my routine also was, you know, was coming in on Saturdays and Sundays and when I do my workout at the gym is just kind of a natural progression. Uh, I will say some of the things, you know, like stopping at my favorite breakfast place and those kinds of things have, uh, have changed.

Um, and now they're kind of getting back to that, uh, at a different level, but they're starting to come back a little bit. But I do enjoy the environment. Uh, it's a very comfortable place that we have here. . It's, uh, enjoyable and I get to see a few people every now and then. Yeah, let me, let me hit on cybersecurity.

You know, cybersecurity's, that thing that you, you can never take your eye off. I mean, you could do the EHR implementation, you could do the, the pacs, the rp, the C rmm. You can do all that stuff. But if you ever for a moment, take your eye off cybersecurity and you have a very good. CSO who is, is, is at SCL doing, doing some great work.

What I wanna really focus in on is, you know, how have you seen healthcare's approach to cyber change over the, I mean, you've been ACIO in healthcare for a long time. How has the, the approach to cyber change? Yeah, I, well, certainly it, it's, it's front and center, right? So every uh, board meeting that we have.

My CISO does a report out of what we're doing and how we're doing things on the cybersecurity side. Literally between every one, there's some major event that's happening and some education on that, and how we're looking to. Uh, make sure that we don't hopefully become one of those headlines, but what I've seen is a few things.

One is a, a large shift to, uh, managed services to really, there there are no companies that are more mature. They've developed an area of expertise and you don't have to build all that extra expertise yourself and be able to maintain it. So managed services coming into play. And that also gives you, as you know, the 7 24 look of your environment and all the different interactions that's happening without having a person, uh, be watching it, uh, at all times.

And with that comes, I think, the national progression into artificial intelligence and means machine learning. So it's starting to learn what a normal behavior is and can identify. When an abnormal behavior occurs, and if so, we can then segment that area of the company or that person outside of we feel somebody's been breached and be able to investigate that without necessarily impacting the rest of the company.

I do think too, that I. As we have with, with many of our work, as you know, is really going across industry, so it's not a healthcare situation. Certainly healthcare is privileged to house some of the most important and some of the most sensitive data that we have about people, but also this is, this is across all industries.

And so those continued learnings and being able to collaborate. Outside of healthcare is really important as we look to take this on, I think as a, as a country in our example, for example, versus just our industry or just our company, and then the, the continued learnings. So people, as we all know, is, is one of the major holes that we have, you know, that allowing people to come into your environment.

It's like somebody leaving the door unlocked, you know, at, at your house or the window propped open. Those are things that we continue having to educate on, and I think we're probably to a point that if, when we look at people who may have, uh, a disciplinary situation where they're leaving that door open a little bit more than what they should, or that window unlocked a little bit more than what they should, that we're gonna start moving our way through more of a, uh, reward system for those that are doing it correctly.

And a more of a disciplinary approach for those that aren't. 'cause really, it's kind of creating an exposure for everybody else, uh, to come in and to possibly do some damage to your data. So from that standpoint, we're going through a lot more of a mature process and heightening, uh, the awareness of some of those breaching.

Craig, thanks. Thanks for your time. And we've covered so much ground in such a. But we'll, we'll have to, we'll have to do this again in the fall and you know, by then we'll see if you're still standing. E-H-R-E-R-P, you know, health Cloud. That's, that's a lot of stuff going on. I'm, I'm excited for you. Well, thank you.

I appreciate it. And Bill, y your, your work is just, uh, tremendous. So the, the different sharings and the learnings, I continue to, to grow and be a student in my role. And so thank you for all that You do. Really appreciate it. Appreciate it. Thanks, Craig. Take care. What a great discussion. If you know of someone that might benefit from our channel from these kinds of discussions, please forward them a note.

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