In this episode, my special guest is Todd Ablowitz, a friend of 27 years and an industry veteran serving the same span.

In 2014, Todd along with Deana Rich Co-founded Infinicept, making them both Co-founders and Co-CEOs.

Infinicept provides tools and services that enable companies to get payments going their way.

Todd is a globally recognized authority on payment technology and emerging payments trends. As a well-respected thought leader in the industry, investors, media, analysts and industry watchers rely on Todd for expert advice, trend insights, and consulting.

An early adopter of the Payment Facilitator, and embedded payments model, since 2020 Infinicept has experienced exponential growth, tapping into the embedded finance market, which is projected to reach $585 billion by 2030.

In this episode, among other actionable takeaways, Todd shares his perspective on why Fintech is one of the hottest areas of innovation right now; opportunities and cautions.

Todd also talks about what he believes to be the greatest challenges facing the Payments/Fintech space today.

During our chat, Todd was impassioned, paying homage to those who have helped or influenced him on his journey. Among the many include Diane (Vogt) Faro, an industry icon, Scott Wagner, Mohammed Anwar Khan, Charles Drucker, Henry Helgeson, Eula Adams, and Samir Govil. (giving credence to “It takes a village…”)

Todd will be taking us on his journey; one of perseverance, setbacks, and dogged determination that transformed him into the entrepreneur he has become.

For Infinicipt the future is “blue sky,” with Todd and Deana remaining focused on their mission, steering the company on its continuum of excellence and growth.

what we hope for is to be this infrastructure layer across

2

payments and um, In a way that is

agnostic to the different providers.

3

We don't want to go

build a lending product.

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We wanna work with the

best lending products.

5

We don't want to go build a

banking as a service product.

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We wanna make the connectivity between

payments and banking and lending and all

7

the other things seamless so that software

companies and others have the opportunity

8

to choose their vendors of choice.

9

Welcome to Bridges to Excellence Podcast.

10

Inspired leadership in

payments and fintech.

11

Bringing you conversations

with payments most fascinating

12

people on top of their game.

13

Leaders, influencers,

experts, and innovators.

14

Each weekly episode turns our

guests wisdom into practical advice.

15

Their personal journey starts now.

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are meant to inspire and challenge

you to explore your possibilities.

17

Here's your host, Desmond Nicholson.

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In this episode part of our Founders

series, we're talking to Todd Abowitz,

19

Co-founder and Co-CEO of Infinicept.

20

Todd is a globally recognized

authority on payment technology,

21

mobile payments, and emerging trends.

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Todd founded Double Diamond

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industry clients solve their most

critical business challenges.

24

Then in 2014, Todd, along with Deana Rich.

25

Co-founded Infinicept, making

them both Co-founders and Co-CEOs.

26

Infinicept provides tools and services

that enable companies to get payments

27

going their way as a well-respected

thought leader in the industry.

28

Investors, media analysts, and industry

watchers rely on Todd for expert

29

advice, trend insights, and consulting.

30

He has written articles and spoken

about topics such as how embedded

31

finance is changing the way

financial services are delivered,

32

and why openness and transparency.

33

are good business Since 2020 Infinicept

has experienced exponential growth tapping

34

into the embedded finance market, which is

35

Todd will be taking us on his journey,

perseverance, setbacks, dogged

36

determination, transforming into the

entrepreneur he has become, and of

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course, sharing with us along the

way, insightful, actionable takeaways.

38

So stay with us.

39

Track 1: Todd.

40

Welcome to our show.

41

And do you realize it's been 27

years since we've known each other?

42

Todd: 27 years and, that was

43

Track 1: I.

44

Todd: pretty close to my

First day in payments.

45

Track 1: Incredible, isn't it?

46

Anyway, we'll catch up later.

47

Okay, Todd, take us back to your early

life, where you grew up and what your

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life was like while you were growing up.

49

Todd: Oh, wow.

50

I haven't had that

question in a long time.

51

I grew up, in northern New York about

20 miles as the crow flies from Canada.

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North of Lake Placid in

a town called Potsdam.

53

my dad was a professor still is actually,

and my mom was a real estate broker.

54

I lived in a town that was a college

town, obviously I was the son of a,

55

a college professor and it was half

college students and half farmers, it

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was a great experience Really amazing

public schools, in Potsdam, New York.

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Amazing.

58

And so I got a great education growing up.

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wasn't a big fan of the, uh, location

and couldn't wait to get out of there,

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and was lucky to do so when I was 16.

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Move into Boulder, Colorado.

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Track 1: So, uh, where

did you attend school?

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Todd: University.

64

I went to the University of Colorado

65

Track 1: I.

66

Todd: go buffs and, uh, excited

about our new football coach.

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We actually were a, uh, were a

national champion my sophomore year.

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We had a, uh, we were a great

football team during that time, so

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I wasn't a huge football fan till

I got to Boulder, but all changed.

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I went to school a little bit early.

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I went to school when I was 16, so

that was an interesting experience.

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Track 1: And, what was

your major in college?

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Todd: Well, it started pre-med and after

about a year of experiencing boulder

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and all that Boulder has to offer, I

switched majors to political science.

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Track 1: Now take us on your career path.

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let's start out with First Data

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Todd: Yeah,

78

Track 1: shall we?

79

Todd: after spending, an unusually

long amount of time in college, I

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graduated, in 96 and I was screwing

around all summer, finally decided by

81

around August that I really should like,

get a job and do something that would

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be productive and a friend of mine.

83

that I'd worked with at a department store

had been telling me about this job where

84

he was selling credit card terminals and

he offered to introduce me to the manager.

85

And I sent a resume in, I

got some letters of rec.

86

I was very excited about this opportunity

'cause he, pumped it up so much and

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I, my clothes in the front seat of

my two-seater car and drove down

88

to Arizona and couch surfed with a

friend went in and got a, an interview

89

at First Data with Scotty Wagner.

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who's a dear friend.

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In fact, I think he's coming next

weekend, to go skiing with me.

92

But Scotty interviewed me on

the way to the job interview.

93

I, I drove it the day before 'cause I

really was excited about this job and.

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Track 1: Oh.

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Todd: I, uh, I drove the route

from my friend's house and it was

96

a, a little ways, and it was new.

97

It was Arizona in August, and so I knew

exactly how long it was gonna take.

98

I left really early, uh, just to make

sure I wouldn't take any chances with

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traffic since I didn't know it very well.

100

And about halfway to the job interview,

I got a flat tire in 108 degree weather.

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a suit on.

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And I looked at the time

and I said, there's no way

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AAA's gonna get here on time.

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So I changed the tire, in six minutes

I remember getting to the front desk

105

of Scotty's office and, and the.

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receptionist.

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Becky looked at me like I had three

heads, and I was, I sweat through my suit

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and, luckily there was a gym underneath.

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and so I had enough time.

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I went down and I, took a, like I took a

really quick shower and tried to like dry

111

off my shirt and went into the interview.

112

And by the time I got to the interview,

he basically said I was hired And we ended

113

up just talking about college basketball.

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I think.

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Track 1: Oh, that's Scotty.

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Okay.

117

Anyway, take us through

that path beyond First Data.

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That first hire,

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Go ahead.

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Todd: I was at First Data for 10 years.

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Uh, so the first five years selling

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Track 1: I.

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Todd: or managing salespeople

and training salespeople.

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When I worked with you, to.

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Help small merchants with

their payments experience.

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And, I, realized very quickly, within

the first day that signing up a

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merchant account was like a mortgage.

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Five pages triplicate press, hard, three

copies, check, of blood, firstborn child.

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It was, what we had to

do to sign up a merchant

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Track 1: As they would say.

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Todd: Yeah.

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And so, it was exactly the

opposite of my college experience.

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I just got really motivated.

134

I thought it was a cool job,

and I really enjoyed it.

135

And so I was fortunate enough

to move up very quickly.

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It was a growth time at First

Data the late nineties were

137

really a, very, moving time.

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And before I knew it, I was managing

Something like half of the Wells Fargo,

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um, Merchant Services sales team.

140

And then I found myself in product,

because that was kind of a disaster.

141

and they asked me to clean that up.

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And so I spent that first five

years was really in this sort of

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this, this $300 million company.

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Called Wells Fargo Merchant Services.

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That was a joint venture between

First Data and Wells Fargo Bank, but

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it operated like its own entity and

it was really cool, great leadership,

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a lot of growth formative time.

148

And then I moved into more of the

mothership of First Data, and that second

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five years was a lot more stagnant.

150

a lot more middle management as

a director, working for various

151

executives on different products.

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Product initiatives and there

was a lot of seasoning on things

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like, how to speak to executives.

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I was really terrible at

it, uh, for a long time.

155

And it got beaten into you,

how you needed to do it.

156

We, one of my, uh, most important mentors

was, Diane Vogt, who's now Diane Faro.

157

And she, uh, man, she was

tough as nails and really.

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Set a very, very high bar.

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That was difficult.

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I thought she hated me.

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we've talked about this since I

thought she absolutely hated me

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'cause she's just really tough.

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I remember when I, uh, it was time for me

to go after 10 years and, I got recruited

164

to go to a, Silicon Valley company.

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I'll talk about that in a minute.

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I remember giving notice and

I was terrified to tell Diane.

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Her assistant thought I was like, sick or

gonna tell her I had cancer or something.

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I sounded so bad.

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So I finally tell her.

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And then we did a conference,

To kind of do, we were doing the

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National Association of Convenience

Source Conference at that time.

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I, I had Seven 11 and some really

big, relationships, across First Data.

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And I remember I gave her notice.

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We did some turnover with the customers,

and then she and I sat down at a blackjack

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table and started talking and playing

blackjack, and we became Best friends.

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I had no idea, how she felt about me.

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And, and we ended up after I left First

Data, we became really good friends.

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And to this day, she's one

of my dear, dear friends.

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Track 1: Okay, great.

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And what's the next step after that?

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After First Data.

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Todd: So in those days, this is 2005

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Track 1: Okay.

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Todd: There was a lot of excitement

about contactless payments.

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and went to a company that built the best

contactless payments readers in the world.

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they were called Vivo Tech.

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And we built contactless

payment readers about 10 years.

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It turns out before anyone needed them.

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but Visa and MasterCard were

populating them into the marketplace.

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uh, during the time I was there,

I, was, SVP of sales, uh, so I ran

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global sales there and I think we

sold 750,000 readers in 29 countries.

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during the three years I was there.

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Uh, what an experience.

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My networking, when you're

inside First Data, at least in

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those days, it's very insular.

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We, knew each other, but we didn't work

with that many outside in a lot of the

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jobs, either customers or colleagues.

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uh, Vivo Tech was the exact opposite.

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I had to meet the top brass from every

single, uh, merchant acquirer, not

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only in the US but many of them around

the world, with a focus, on the us.

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And was fortunate during that time to be

elected to the board of the Electronic

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Transactions Association, in 2008.

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And that was really incredible.

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I'd been involved by then, I'd

been involved in the organization

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for about eight years.

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I'd been the, I.

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Vice-Chair and then the chair

of the technology committee.

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And was a huge way for me to get to know

people in the industry make a difference.

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We started the technology

innovation award, when I was

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Chair of, the tech committee and

that that lives on to this day.

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We really wanted to do

something that would endure.

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So anyway, I, was able to my

network during those three years.

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And then what ended up happening was,

you may have heard, that there was a,

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minor financial disturbance in 2008

uh, really put a bullet in Visa and

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MasterCard populating the, the readers.

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So when you, when you need to

get acceptance of a new payment

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modality, you have to, drive

acceptance so that when someone gets

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issued the card, they can use it.

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And so Visa, MasterCard stalled on their

acceptance drive in the US because of

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the recession and budgets and whatnot.

221

And so that really put

pressure on Vivo Tech.

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And, and I got fired.

223

well laid off, whatever you

call it, because it was my

224

fault that that happened.

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I joke about that.

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Track 1: Of course.

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Todd: but I really cherished that time.

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I worked with, another mentor of mine,

Mohammad Khan, they call him now,

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the godfather of NFC, which is the

broader technology around contactless.

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And, I learned more from Khan.

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He was a software engineer who

learned how to do sales and business

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development, and I learned more from

that man, than I can possibly tell you.

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Track 1: Okay, and

let's not downplay this.

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In 2010, you were awarded, the

member of the year at, ETA.

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Okay.

236

Now,

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Todd: great organization.

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It's a great organization.

239

I'm sure I'll talk about

it again during the

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Track 1: Sure.

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Then of course you got into,

or you founded Double Diamond.

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What was that about?

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Todd: So when I left.

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Vivo Tech when I left, I was still

consulting with them for a long time.

245

I, left on really good terms.

246

I, love to joke about how it went

down, but, I always wanted to start a

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company and I didn't really consider

consulting starting a company, but it

248

was like a, it was all I knew I could do.

249

It's the only idea I had at the time.

250

So I

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Track 1: Step.

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Todd: yeah, and I thought,

I know a lot of people.

253

I made a bet that people would for

the, we didn't sell Vivo Tech readers

254

because of they had more Hertz, or more,

I don't know, power on this or that.

255

Vivo tech readers beat the competition

because we weren't selling readers.

256

We were selling what these things could

do, what contactless would mean over time,

257

how it could change a retailer's business.

258

And so we built that understanding

and that vision of the future.

259

And I thought I think

people will pay for that.

260

So I actually started doing some

consulting work with a couple companies

261

and I also started looking for a

job 'cause I didn't have much money.

262

I had moved back to Colorado.

263

Fortunately I hadn't sold my house

in Colorado and I only rented in

264

California when I was out there.

265

when I moved back, I was

really, really tight.

266

And actually my wife at the

time had Didn't have a job.

267

We had a, one-year-old.

268

And so we had like emergency funds only.

269

So in addition to starting Double

Diamond Group, also went and was having

270

serious conversations about a job and I

got an offer, to go back to First Data.

271

And it was a lot of money.

272

It was like double what I'd made when I

left and it was a lot more than I was,

273

you know, pulling down in consulting and.

274

I just, I had one big opportunity

on the line from POS Portal.

275

I knew the CEO quite well, Buzz Stryker.

276

he and I had been talking

about a project and I said to

277

him, look, I've got an offer.

278

I'd really like to, um, this consulting

thing, but I need an anchor client.

279

I need to know that I have some,

a certain amount I, and I needed.

280

At the time, I knew if I

had $50,000 of committed

281

Track 1: No.

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Todd: the next six months

I could build around that.

283

And so he came back to me.

284

I was on a plane.

285

I think we were using those,

I think it was blackberries.

286

I can, 'cause I can see that, the text

in my, in my head he said, I'll let you

287

know by the time you land back in Denver.

288

I was actually pitching a

consulting gig and so I'm landing

289

in Denver and I get a text saying.

290

Confirmed 50,000 in consulting

business in the next six months.

291

And I went back and I talked to

Heidi and I said, look, I've got

292

this offer for a lot of money to go

back to First Data, and I've got this

293

anchor client and she said, well.

294

What do you wanna do?

295

And I said, I, I think that the

consulting businesses has legs.

296

And she was good with it.

297

And that was that.

298

And I turned down the First Data

offer and took the gig and I ended

299

up making more that first year.

300

It worked well, even that first year.

301

Track 1: Great.

302

It is now 2014 Infinicept is launched.

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How was the idea conceived

leading to adopt embedded payments

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as a viable business model?

305

Walk us through that light bulb moment.

306

I

307

Todd: Okay, so it's

actually before that, we,

308

Track 1: I.

309

Todd: on the board of ETA

and I made friends with this

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lady who was really smart.

311

On risk fraud, compliance.

312

And the thing that really stood out

about Deana, this is now my co-founder.

313

The thing that stood out about Deana

was there was a conversation about

314

and one of the industry's icons,

Deborah Rossi was talking about very

315

aggressively in her, inimitable style.

316

She was very aggressively talking

about a particular topic, something

317

to do with chargebacks and

Deana in the most elegant way.

318

Corrected her on how it really worked.

319

Did it in a way that was elegant,

respectful, captivated the room, including

320

Deborah and She stood out big time, so

we became friends and we were talking and

321

another meeting or two later in April,

322

said the same day they would do their

own presentations and they were like,

323

Chinese walled off.

324

So Visa would come in and leave and

MasterCard would come in and then leave,

325

and the other card brands and they both

on the same day announced rules for

326

what we now call payment facilitators.

327

And I was captivated with that.

328

I thought that was unbelievable.

329

And I went and talked to the

Visa guy, Samir Gove, and asked

330

him, I said, is it big as.

331

It seems like it is.

332

And he says, I think it's, it's huge.

333

And I said, I'm gonna go

focus my business on this.

334

So I grabbed Deana and I was like, Hey.

335

She was like, I was

thinking the same thing.

336

I, there's so much compliance risk and

challenges to the models like this.

337

It's a great opportunity.

338

So we put our heads together,

said, okay, we'll do some gig work.

339

So we each had consulting companies.

340

So Deana had, Rich Consulting, and

by the way, you should put her on.

341

She's unbelievable, uh, for this podcast.

342

Track 1: Absolutely.

343

Todd: Absolutely recommend it.

344

So Deana, and I agreed to do some

work and within a month we get a call.

345

I get a call from a company

called Dev Pay, and they wanted

346

to build payments for developers.

347

And they, and called

Deana and I was like, Hey.

348

Do you think you can help these guys?

349

'cause they needed to figure out

how to get approved at Wells Fargo.

350

They were in Y Combinator,

which is a startup incubator.

351

so we helped them, I think

they had nine employees.

352

They got approved at Wells Fargo.

353

and then, somewhere in there they

changed their name to Stripe.

354

And so we found ourselves working

with, what became one of the most

355

famous, startup stories ever,

and then a few customers later.

356

Deana gets a call, on a referral.

357

She'd done a lot of work with Google

this company called Shopify, Deana on

358

a referral from Google, and they said,

we want to create Shopify payments.

359

And Deana calls me and says, Hey,

there's a whole bunch of cool stuff here.

360

I've got some of it, but I'd love

to get your expertise on some of it.

361

And so we helped launch Shopify

payments and that was, they had

362

about 20,000 merchants at the time

on different payment gateways.

363

And we helped them figure that

all out and get Shopify launched.

364

And the CFO who hired us at the

time, is still on our Advisory

365

Board as is Samir Govel.

366

And, and one of my mentors

from First Data, uh, I think

367

you had him on your podcast.

368

Eula, Adams

369

Track 1: Great.

370

Now tell us about some of the

major hurdles you encountered in

371

getting Infinicept off the ground

and how you feel it's strengthened

372

Infinicept as a company I.

373

Todd: Well, the first thing

374

The

375

Track 1: Right.

376

Todd: uh, pivoting from consulting

to having some software.

377

We had We worked with a, uh, software

company that needed the software and we

378

ended up partnering with them and, and

they had a percentage of the company.

379

We then were trying to sell it,

but we didn't really have much yet.

380

And so 20 14, 20 15, 20 16,

all those years were just.

381

of long proofs of concept because

we didn't wanna raise money.

382

We wanted to bootstrap, and as we finally

got some early software to the plate and

383

we were demoing it, I think I gave 300

demos before I, we made a dollar and we

384

showed it to this guy, Henry Helgason,

who was the founder and CEO of Cayenne,

385

which is a huge payments company, sold

for a billion dollars later to TYSIS.

386

He said, look, I'm busy with some

things right now, so I can't buy

387

your software, I'd love to invest.

388

The first thing, Dina and I looked at

each other and said, we're bootstrappers,

389

but we know and trust Henry.

390

And the first hurdle was the hurdle

of taking other people's money.

391

But that's what got us off the ground.

392

And we, raised some money from Henry and

that he brought a couple friends in that

393

are industry icons, in the investing

world hiring those first few people.

394

And then, there've been so many hurdles.

395

Uh, this one might take a minute.

396

We getting, from.

397

The first couple of people to around.

398

When we, as we got to about six people,

we had to start having meetings.

399

I mean, most of the people that

worked for us were, quite a bit

400

younger than us and used to an

asynchronous engineering culture.

401

And we were losing the thread some

of the time by not talking ever.

402

And so we had to start doing meetings.

403

And that was interesting.

404

And then throughout 2018, we were

building for a few customers.

405

We signed up five customers by the end of

406

So I did a pass the hat round,

for payments CEOs and investors

407

and working our networks.

408

And it was all just people we knew

and nobody that Infinicept until.

409

2022.

410

Uh,

411

Track 1: Wow.

412

Todd: did we go to, they all came to us.

413

They all said, we, we

like what you're doing.

414

Can we invest?

415

And we finally put a round together in end

416

and we went to 40 employees in 2019.

417

So that next hurdle unbelievable torrid

growth and figuring out a way to do that.

418

And I remember in July, 2019.

419

We'd sold all these customers.

420

We went from five customers to 30

421

Track 1: Wow.

422

Todd: and I remember some

of those early customers.

423

when you're building new software,

have to make promises of, well, we need

424

this if, you know, for us to buy this

software, we have to have this widget.

425

And so any one of those things wasn't

very hard, but when you stack that on

426

top of each other, it creeps up on you.

427

So whenever starting something, I really

recommend keep a lid on the early growth.

428

Don't go too far, too fast.

429

'cause it can really be hard

unless you're ready to raise

430

an enormous amount of money.

431

So that next hurdle was, the software

falling over, with real customers that

432

needed to pay merchants and, you know,

late nights and, and fixing it barely.

433

And, being able to get there

and keeping the customers.

434

We didn't have anyone leave, but

it was really, really hard because

435

they, trust you to buy your software.

436

trust you on delivering when you

are doing your best, but have

437

trouble, it's really difficult.

438

There's so many more hurdles.

439

I mean, we had COVID, we had, uh,

SVB, which was our big investor in 22.

440

When they went under that, you know,

we didn't know where our money was.

441

I mean, we've had hurdle after hurdle

after hurdle, and we'll have some more.

442

Track 1: Now, how many funding

rounds have you completed so far?

443

Todd: So I think technically, let's

see, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, technically five.

444

The first four rounds were all

very small, uh, and a small number

445

of people and all common stock.

446

We've only had one, preferred round

series A and that was, April of 22.

447

Track 1: now, what is the mission of

Infinicept and why is Infinicept an

448

asset to the payment FinTech industry.

449

Todd: So our mission is to drive the

transformation to software led payments.

450

That's our mission.

451

We wanna drive software companies to

the fore of the payment ecosystem.

452

So the biggest reason we're an Asset

to the payments in FinTech space

453

is we believe openness, fairness,

integrity, and that's not been

454

the history electronic payments.

455

Unfortunately.

456

We started something called

the Embedded Payments Bill of

457

Rights, and you can look at it.

458

It's embedded payments bill of rights.com.

459

And this is a industry movement with eight

principles around things like I mentioned,

460

transparency, fair pricing, no lock-in.

461

And so the biggest thing that

Infinicept stands for and provides

462

the ability to with your choice

of technology, choice of bank.

463

Your choice of, software ecosystems,

and we bring democracy to the

464

software companies and help them.

465

They, I mean, soft, think about it.

466

Software companies are incredible.

467

come up with an idea, maybe it's in,

event management, or maybe it's in

468

restaurants, maybe it's in nonprofits,

and they go and they build this beautiful.

469

merchant experience, business experience

ties so many different elements

470

of what a business, whether it's a

nonprofit or a restaurant or event

471

management or government payments.

472

These software companies build this thing.

473

They get it distributed, they

answer the questions, they build

474

it so that it's user friendly.

475

They do all this stuff, but then when it

came time for payments, they were just

476

Tossing it to some other company with a

clunky process, and that other company

477

so many times did not serve the customer.

478

kind of experience that the

software companies can serve.

479

So the software companies are

rightfully in front of this.

480

The software companies are rightfully the

ones to take payments to the next level.

481

we do that's special is we

help them get there faster.

482

We help them get there more seamlessly,

and we help them get there without

483

locking them into some Closed ecosystem.

484

Track 1: Got you.

485

Now let's talk about a customer.

486

You could pick any customer who

has become a payment facilitator

487

on top of your platform.

488

Let's focus on use case scenario

and talk about the before and after.

489

Todd: Yeah.

490

One of my favorite customers

is a company called WorkWave.

491

WorkWave has the majority

market share in field service

492

management for recurring services.

493

So for example, the So-called

Green Industries, that's pest

494

control, lawn and care, they have

janitorial services, et cetera.

495

So they were in a referral

agreement a major processor.

496

The customers were complaining.

497

They had a statement that

said the processor's name,

498

the revenue share was paultry.

499

The pricing was, was, totally opaque

and it was just overall a terrible

500

experience for their customers.

501

So they decided to become

a payment facilitator.

502

They had some bumps in

the road before they.

503

chose us.

504

They, worked with another vendor,

uh, shall remain nameless, and they

505

tried, but they had a financial plan

to hit a certain amount of revenue.

506

And when they found us, and they'd

tried to launch, but nothing worked.

507

And when they found us in the fall

508

And I remember when we finally were

getting close to signing an agreement.

509

Keep in mind, we'd just gone from

five customers to 30 and they were the

510

last agreement we signed before Covid.

511

And when the CEO called me and

said, I want to do a top to top, .,I

512

wanna make sure he also wanted to

grind me down for a better price.

513

But, he said, can you

hit this plan of March?

514

Uh, March, getting a material

amount of volume going, and

515

by November having the entire.

516

live and I committed that

we would get it done to him.

517

they got it done throughout 2020.

518

They got live uh, and they

hit their financial plan.

519

Post that experience.

520

They have a totally branded experience.

521

Customers deal with nobody but WorkWave.

522

They're on our tat.

523

The customer's looking at a screen that

is controlled by Infinicept both on the

524

merchant application and the sub merchant

portal, which is what the merchants see.

525

They see the WorkWave logo and they

see all their transactions, but it is

526

totally a WorkWave experience Infinicept

app doesn't exist other than in A

527

URL and now WorkWave has grown their

portfolio by four X since they started.

528

They're making significant income

and their merchants love it.

529

They added a CH, they've got

check conversion, or it's not

530

conversion, what do you call it?

531

Check deposit, remote.

532

Uh, check deposit.

533

They've been doing things with finance

and it's all on WorkWave payments,

534

which is a, really an admirable example.

535

I don't, I won't give their volume.

536

I don't know if they talk

537

Track 1: Sure.

538

Todd: publicly, but it is billions and

billions of payments volume, per year.

539

Track 1: Excellent.

540

what are Infinicept's core values and

how are they reinforced in the workplace?

541

Todd: So we have five core values

and we talk about them all the time.

542

They're extremely important

to us, and everything we do

543

revolves around our core values.

544

So the first one is have integrity.

545

The second one do the right thing.

546

The third one is act like an adult.

547

The fourth one is be excellent

because perfect is impossible.

548

And the fifth one, everyone's

favorite is eat and drink.

549

Well, the way we re reinforce these Des.

550

They infused into everything we do.

551

So let's just take an example.

552

We are into a ton of autonomy.

553

Engineers are expected to do their job and

and, create poll requests for their code.

554

And the reason we give them autonomy is

we expect people to act like an adult.

555

And guess what?

556

If you treat people like an adult,

they're more likely to act like an adult.

557

Do the right thing.

558

So this one's really important.

559

Do the right thing.

560

It, just e everything from we've had

challenges in the company, when we've,

561

people with personal challenges.

562

When we think about how we treat our

customers, we come back to, okay,

563

well what's the right thing here?

564

It might be painful, it might

be, costly or difficult.

565

We just say.

566

do the right thing.

567

the one that I think is most important,

I wouldn't say it's my favorite 'cause

568

it might be the hardest, but it is

the most important, is be excellent

569

because perfect is impossible.

570

And what that means to me is so often

we find ourselves it the first part.

571

Sure.

572

Be excellent.

573

That's easy, right?

574

You should really be excellent.

575

Great.

576

Well, perfect.

577

Being impossible is

really important because.

578

We don't want people covering their ass.

579

We don't want people saying, well, the

reason I did this thing was because I

580

thought this and I thought that, and

I was thinking, it doesn't matter if

581

you made a mistake, you made a mistake.

582

You're not perfect.

583

Let's just get that right there

in the middle of the table.

584

I fucked up.

585

I do it all the time, multiple

times a day, and putting

586

that out there and saying.

587

Let's be transparent that

we screwed up on something.

588

It's fine.

589

Let's own it.

590

Let's not get into a whole bunch

of noise around why it wasn't

591

really a screw up or covering up

that it was, we just screwed up.

592

It's fine.

593

People do it like multiple times a day.

594

So that one's really important to me

595

Track 1: Mm-Hmm.

596

Todd: because I find myself, if

I'm trying to be perfect defensive

597

and that has, there's no room

for that in life or in business.

598

We should just recognize that

we're fallible and we gotta

599

just keep getting better.

600

Track 1: Absolutely.

601

Now, transparency is one of the

key pillars in building a strong

602

culture in your organization.

603

What kind of feedback mechanism

you have in place to make it work.

604

Todd: Well, it's, it's

infused in everything we do.

605

So we have, regular communication.

606

We are transparent with our financials.

607

We're transparent with how the business

is going, whether it's going well or at

608

that particular time, not going so well.

609

We're transparent about our new sales.

610

We're transparent about.

611

many employees are doing what, changes

in the organization, everything.

612

And one of the ways we communicate,

is uh, a monthly hands.

613

I.

614

haven't asked me anything.

615

Deana and I and our Chief Operating

Officer, Scott Agatep, usually have

616

a set agenda, but especially with

Scott taking over as COO, he runs a

617

lot of the operations of the company.

618

and he'll walk through the agenda, but

we always leave enough time for asking

619

anything, and we put vehicles out there

for people to ask, by voice, by chat.

620

Anonymously and we've got

checks and balances to make

621

sure that it's really anonymous.

622

And, we get all kinds of interesting

and tough questions and we don't,

623

we don't shy away from them.

624

And that kind of transparency

has built a, culture.

625

And, and look, we, we always can

get better and I, and we always

626

encourage our employees to tell

us how to be better, but I believe

627

that the employee base trusts us.

628

To do the right thing, trusts us, to

tell them the truth and be transparent.

629

And that's because we've done

so in good times and bad.

630

our, one of our, we have some on podcasts

like this, we talk about so many things,

631

but one of the principles that's really

important is employees come first.

632

If you treat your employees

really well, they will treat

633

your customers really well.

634

And if your customers are really happy.

635

Your investors get taken care of.

636

So I think American business

culture has gotten that upside down

637

Track 1: Right.

638

Todd: And, I just think that if we

just do our basic job every day, then

639

the investors will get taken care of.

640

Track 1: I guess it's that

employee first mentality and it

641

shows case in point in January.

642

Infinicept was honored by Built-in

643

Awards ranking 15th on the best

mid-sized places to work in Colorado.

644

Congratulations.

645

Todd: Thanks de.

646

Track 1: As, uh, Co-CEOs, how do you and

Deana divvy up your responsibilities?

647

Todd: That is such a great question.

648

I have to tell you, I was not a

believer in co-CEOs before we.

649

Before we met, I, thought,

well, there's one president.

650

How are you gonna have two bosses?

651

Like, who, how do you break ties?

652

Who's gonna do what?

653

And it turns out in that time, during 2019

where everything was going really quickly,

654

we were stepping all over each other.

655

Not in a bad way.

656

Our trust and commitment to our

partnership is unparalleled.

657

I've never seen anything like it.

658

She, she's ride or die, in terms

of a business partnership and.

659

We found ourselves making decisions

that the other person had made the

660

opposite decision or just stepping

all over each other because when we

661

were just partners, we just talked

about stuff and made decisions.

662

So we, we hired a coach, a professional

coach, to help us through like,

663

okay, how do we divvy it up?

664

And we became extremely, uh, precise

and specific about who does what.

665

And basically, I do go to market.

666

Deana does fulfillment.

667

So I looked after everything from

marketing, demand gen, business

668

development, sales at the beginning.

669

That included product, and

theneaDina looked after Engineering,

670

consulting, customer support.

671

Oh, I also had, customer success in those

days and then Dina looked after customer

672

support and all of the serving of the

demand that was, that was generated.

673

And then as we evolved, we

realized that keeping product

674

and engineering on opposite sides

was not healthy for the company.

675

So we moved product to where I

belong, in Dina's organization.

676

we brought in a CTO to run all that

for Deana then most recently, Scott

677

coming in as COO, he's taken over

everything except for sales the CTO

678

organization with, sales reports to me.

679

CTO reports to Dina and,

everything else reports to Scott.

680

Track 1: Good My next question, but

before I get into that question,

681

let me put some context to it.

682

There you were in 1996.

683

Fresh out of college, no

prior work experience.

684

You joined First Data in

sales within three years.

685

It's now 1999.

686

You are now a District Sales

Manager for Wells Fargo Merchant

687

Services Alliance covering Colorado,

Utah, and Nevada, et cetera.

688

In that same year, you were nominated

for your first leadership award.

689

That I'm aware of, namely First

Data's Leaders of the Pack Award,

690

recognizing employees whose performance

were exceptional and exemplary.

691

With that being said, Todd, when you

think about your journey as a leader,

692

do you think you were born with these

capabilities and capacity, or do you

693

think you really learn to become a

leader during the course of your career?

694

Todd: it is not call.

695

Absolutely 1000% learned.

696

I was such a dork when I got started.

697

I was a micromanager.

698

I didn't know what I was doing.

699

I compensated with it for

it with hard work, but.

700

Yeah, I was, I was terrible.

701

And I give the credit to kinds of leaders

that I worked with, Scott Wagner, George

702

Jathis, Bill Vogtle and Karen Whalen,

uh, taught me an enormous amounts

703

about how to, how to carry oneself

in a public domain and how to lead.

704

And, uh, and there's many, many more.

705

I mentioned, Diane Faro,

Brian Seims Charles Drucker.

706

I mean, it's endless, right?

707

You just go through these people

that you learn so much from.

708

and so I studied and and was made a

very strong attempt to be self-aware

709

and not be so proud that I thought I

knew what I was doing at 23 years old.

710

You know, starting in corporate America,

711

Track 1: Now, how would you

describe your leadership style?

712

Todd: I would say.

713

I think it'd be better to

hear from, the team, for this.

714

But, the best I can say is,

listen, I strive to give, both,

715

autonomy and accountability.

716

To my team, I try not to get in their way.

717

I'm very passionate about the vision

though, where I have been accused of

718

overly micro is when I have a particular

way that I see the company evolving and

719

I don't see alignment to that vision.

720

Very, very important to me and.

721

I think the most important

thing is developing people.

722

my dad is, I mentioned earlier, is a

professor and he talks about scientific

723

children scientific grandchildren.

724

And one of the most rewarding times,

that I heard about was when one of

725

my managers, Steve Moss, who I still

adore to this day, I think he's one

726

of the top brass at Wells Fargo.

727

still, he was talking about

someone that he had developed.

728

And that person had done some amazing

things and he was really encouraged

729

to see their career blossoming.

730

And I think of that example where you've

developed someone and then they go on

731

to develop someone and they, and you're

passing down this business leadership

732

through the generations, speaking.

733

So that, that's really, I

think, a great way to, to look

734

at how to be a good leader.

735

Track 1: Now over the years, CEOs and

business leaders have shared their

736

thoughts on the phrase work life balance.

737

What does that mean to you?

738

Or would you phrase it differently?

739

Todd: Yeah.

740

I think everybody's got to, I think you

gotta do you on these things, and, and

741

it changes throughout your story arc.

742

One of the things that

I realized at the end of

743

Track 1: I.

744

Todd: at First Data is I'd let my body

fall apart and I was not feeling it at,

745

what was I 33 or something, and I was,

not happy with how my body performed,

746

and it was hard to fix that too much.

747

I started fixing it in California

with Vivo Tech, but it really put

748

attention to it starting in 2008.

749

when I started Double Diamond Group, I

had more time on my hands and I made it

750

a priority and one of the big priorities

for me was to get back to skiing.

751

Double Diamond Group is a play off

of a double diamond, which is a

752

black double black diamond ski run.

753

And I really prioritized skiing

and, um, personal health.

754

And of course I had little ones.

755

So as they started to, come in,

that took a lot of attention.

756

I thought in that, in those consulting

days, that lifestyle business, I

757

had, I, a lot of times I would go

skiing on Fridays and I would spend

758

time with my kids and they became.

759

Really great skiers and, one of

my great joys is skiing with them.

760

So it became a very heavy period

of, the life part of work.

761

So-called Work, work-life Balance.

762

And then when Deana and I

started in Infinicept I mean, a

763

startup is it's all encompassing.

764

You don't have a life of anything.

765

So that's a, 90, a hundred

hour a week job at times.

766

And for some years, like

it was for consistent time.

767

so some of the work-life balance,

so-called Work-Life balance was more

768

work and . Little less life, but

you have to keep your body together.

769

if I didn't run a marathon in 2013, if I

didn't, out, in a, in a consistent basis,

770

and most importantly getting my skiing

in, I wouldn't be effective in my work.

771

Track 1: Good what are

some of Infinicept's growth

772

initiatives for the coming year?

773

Todd: Okay.

774

our biggest initiative is we found over

the last few years where our approach

775

to be a software company for payment

facilitators and other payments companies,

776

too many software companies just don't

feel they're ready be a pay fac no matter

777

how much we can make the case and show

them, Hey, this is, you can do this.

778

Especially with our help, they

just didn't feel they were ready

779

and a lot of our competitors.

780

Were paybacks themselves and just

said, let us do the payments for you.

781

that never jived with our values

until we realized that we could

782

do it in a way that was really

friendly to the software company.

783

So we created Launch Pay.

784

Launch Pay launched earlier

this year in stealth, and then

785

we announced it in September.

786

And Launch Pay is a payment facilitator.

787

for software companies that

aren't quite ready, and so

788

we'll do the payments for you.

789

You still get your branding,

you still do the sales.

790

You can still service your customers,

but you don't have to register and learn

791

everything about payments to be Payfac.

792

Track 1: Good now, what are you most

excited about Infinicept's Future

793

Todd: I can't believe how quickly

794

Track 1: I.

795

Todd: are adopting.

796

Launch pay.

797

We've got billions and billions

and billions signed up already.

798

Our, legacy product, the pay ops,

payment operations software, we have

799

about 15 billion annualized payment

volume, we signed up more than a third

800

of that in six months on Launch Pay.

801

It's gonna take some real hard work to get

all the merchants live and to do all the,

802

gritty stuff to make that volume come.

803

True, the early about the

product is staggering.

804

Track 1: Now, where do you see the

company in five years down the road?

805

Todd: I think anybody who answers

that question with a straight

806

face is fooling themselves.

807

ambition and what we hope for is

to be this infrastructure layer

808

across payments and In a way that is

agnostic to the different providers.

809

We don't want to go

build a lending product.

810

We wanna work with the

best lending products.

811

We don't want to go build a

banking as a service product.

812

We wanna make the connectivity between

payments and banking and lending and all

813

the other things seamless so that software

companies and others have the opportunity

814

to choose their vendors of choice.

815

Track 1: Now what keeps Todd up at night?

816

Todd: Yeah, I think anyone who's

in electronic payments that

817

doesn't think about data security

doesn't have their eye on the ball.

818

But I think the biggest thing I

think about is, you know, we have.

819

More than 60 famalies Infinicept.

820

And the thing that I think keeps

me up the most at night is making

821

sure that we do the right things,

make the right decisions, and bring

822

the business where it needs to go

to make sure that those families

823

can, thrive and, achieve objectives.

824

and part of that is your job

and your financial, wherewithal.

825

Desmond Nicholson: What aspect of

your personality do you think has

826

been the most helpful in your career?

827

Todd

828

Track 1: I think kindness.

829

I think, uh, I have always tried to be

there for people and, it's paid back

830

way more than I would've imagined.

831

And, I want to double down on that.

832

I.

833

Desmond Nicholson: The law of reciprocity.

834

Indeed.

835

Now, FinTech is one of the hottest

areas of innovation right now.

836

Where do you see opportunities and

where would you steer new entrepreneurs

837

to look for problems to solve?

838

Track 1: Well within payments

839

Desmond Nicholson: I.

840

Track 1: I get very excited about payfac.

841

Of course, if I wasn't

doing payfac, I think.

842

One of the areas that's super exciting

is network tokens and orchestration.

843

I think, uh, business to business payments

is a hundred trillion dollars opportunity

844

worldwide, something like 30 trillion in

the US so you get very excited about that.

845

So healthcare payments

are still messed up.

846

Just paying your doctor should be

so much easier beyond payments.

847

I think the broader embedded

finance opportunity is huge.

848

The thing I'd caution there is it's

so big one has to find a niche to

849

address it, so it is addressable

trying to to bite off a $585 billion

850

market in one fell swoop doesn't work.

851

All the great opportunities started

with some sort of niche and use

852

that as a jumping off point to

build and expand to additional.

853

Desmond Nicholson: Good.

854

Okay.

855

We now move into our final segment.

856

The lightning round bridges to

excellence, inspired leadership

857

in payments and fintech.

858

Desmond Nicholson: Todd, in this segment,

I pose a question and you respond

859

with a single word or one sentence.

860

Shall we begin?

861

Track 1: Let's go

862

Desmond Nicholson: The road not traveled,

863

Track 1: irrelevant,

864

Desmond Nicholson: introvert or extrovert,

865

Track 1: massive extrovert

866

Desmond Nicholson: what

does success mean to you?

867

Track 1: changing payments.

868

Desmond Nicholson: What is the

best advice you ever received?.

869

Track 1: Follow Nature,

870

Desmond Nicholson: What one book would

you recommend to our listeners and why?

871

Track 1: the Mind Body Prescription by Dr.

872

John Sarno.

873

The reason is.

874

The connection between the mind

and the body is little understood.

875

When he was alive, nobody accepted

his, research, even though he was a

876

tenured professor at New York University

and today he died a few years ago.

877

And today his work on tension myositis

syndrome has changed, pain management.

878

So, the Mind Body Prescription

prescription is the best

879

book I've ever read.

880

Desmond Nicholson: Good.

881

What is your favorite quote in leadership

or otherwise that inspires you?

882

Track 1: You can build trust for

20 years and lose it in 20 seconds.

883

That was, that was a quote that,

Mohammed Khan, that I mentioned

884

earlier in the podcast, said to me.

885

Desmond Nicholson: What is

one thing people you work with

886

would be surprised to learn?

887

Track 1: I'm kind of an open

book, so I gotta think about it.

888

I was a giant dork in high

school and a complete nerd.

889

Desmond Nicholson: Who's your

hero of all times and why?

890

Track 1: My dad.

891

Desmond Nicholson: I knew

892

Track 1: because he, he's 78, he is a

distinguished professor at University

893

of Colorado, still actively teaching.

894

He will probably into his eighties,

won the biggest, award that

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you can win at, CU the biggest,

faculty award, and he's hilarious.

896

Desmond Nicholson: Broncos or Raiders?

897

Track 1: Broncos get real

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Desmond Nicholson: What is one thing

that has you fired up right now?

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Track 1: Taylor Swift.

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Desmond Nicholson: Todd, it's been

great catching up with you and thanks

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for the invaluable insights and sharing

your journey, for that we are grateful.

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Any parting thoughts to share

or comments before we wrap up?

903

Track 1: I just wanna say thank you for

everything you taught me and for the time

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we spent together all those years ago.

905

I use the things I've learned, from

your coaching and tutelage, to this day

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Desmond Nicholson: Well thank you

my friend for being on our show

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and to our listeners as always,

thank you for your time and Todd do

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give my regards to Deana will you?

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Track 1: Will do.

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I.

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Desmond Nicholson: And never

forget the more you expect from

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yourself, the more you excel.

913

You've been listening to Bridges

to Excellence podcast, inspired

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leadership and payments and fintech.

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Be sure to join us next time for more

conversations with another of your

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colleagues in payments and fintech.

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Insightful conversations in their

journey to excellence for transcripts

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and other materials covered on the show.

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Visit us at DesmondNicholson.

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com.