The Rev. Dr. Gregory Seltz, Executive Director of the LCRL and Speaker Emeritus of The Lutheran Hour highlights the Center’s mission to provide input, education, advice, advocacy, and resources in the areas of life, marriage and religious liberty as the Center seeks to engage in discussions, to establish partnerships and resources in our nation’s Capital for the sake of our churches, schools, universities, and seminaries. Make plans to join Engaging Truth for these two timely and informative programs.

The following program is sponsored by evangelical life ministries.

Welcome to the Liberty alert with Gregory SEL sponsored by our friends at the Lutheran center for religious Liberty here in Washington, DC, a program that cuts to the chaos and confusion in the culture today by talking to kingdom, citizen chip old biblical principles for robust public Christian life. And now your host is Dr. Gregory ultz

Good day, good day, Washington DC, and friends of the program all around the country. I'm Gregory. Ultz welcome to the Liberty alert where every week we try to cut through the noise and take on the issues, especially the public issues that matter to people of faith. You know, we try to rely on the wisdom of the word for the sake of the culture and the mission of the church. As we like to say at the LCR L we're trying to put our temporal liberties to work for the sake of the eternal liberties of God for all today. Uh, we have have Mike Barry general counsel at first Liberty Institute and Tim gig line VP of external and government relations at focus, uh, with us today. Welcome gentlemen, I'm really starting to struggle with this. How did we get here where people are more and more comfortable making differences of conscience illegal and, and punishable by law. And, and what effect is this gonna have on litigation? What effect is this gonna have on the cases before the court? So, Mike, I'm gonna start with you that there's that E E O C uh, case, uh, complaint against those Alaskan airline flight attendants, what's going on with this kind of stuff?

Well, let, let's start from the beginning. And that is that fairly recently, Alaska airlines decided that it wanted to jump both feet into the fray and announce its support for the so quality equality act, right? Um, this is a, a, a bill that is, uh, making its way through Congress. And, uh, it, it does anything but provide equality, but will address that in a different time, right? Uh, but nevertheless, Alaska airlines announced its full throated support for the equality act and on an internal Alaska airlines message forum, they ask for employee feedback. So they solicited their own employees to say, tell us your thoughts on the equality act, right? And lo and behold, you know, our clients, both flight attendants who are station were stationed in, in separate locations, but they took Alaska up on their offer and voiced their opinion. The one that that really stands out in my mind was her, her crime was to simply ask the following question, does Alaska airlines believe its its possible for a company to legislate morality? And for asking that question again, internally within the, within the company, when the company had solicited feedback, she was told that characterizing the equality act as a moral issue was a form of hate speech and that she would be terminated for that.

Wow.

Um, so I, you know, I don't know if it gets more draconian or Orwellian than that, but that, that, so that's, what's really led to our representation of these two, uh, brave women and our, uh, complaint to the E E O C the equal employment opportunity commission.

And Tim, you know, when I think about these things, that's a cultural shift because all legislation is morality based. I mean, you're talking about a moral position and, and so how did we culturally get here where the company is comfortable soliciting information? And as soon as you say, well, I have a different opinion on this and, and you're actually taking a moral stand. I may agree with, I may disagree with, and just by asking that we're gonna actually fire you, how did we get here?

You know, uh, the late great William F. Buckley had a marvelous response to a not dissimilar question of his era and I'm quoting him. He said, though, liberals do a great deal of talking of, about hearing other points of view. It sometimes shocks them to learn that there are other points of view.

And,

And I, I really think Greg and Mike, that is where we are at for the reasons that Mike and first Liberty Institute, which focus on the family works with, uh, just as closely as we work, uh, with the Lutheran center for religious Liberty, uh, you know, for all of the conscience religious Liberty questions that Mike has elucidated. So well. I also think gentlemen that we are now in the territory of where conscience and religious Liberty crosses over with actually our first amendment speech rights. Uh, and I think that men and women of faith of whatever faith should increasingly be sobered to know that it's not just a crackdown on your religious Liberty and conscience rights, but to bill Buckley's coin, it is also ultimately a crackdown on the ability of you to actually express your viewpoint in the public square. And if we are to decouple the first amendment from our great constitution, you don't just lose the constitution, you lose the entire purpose and meaning of the states of America.

And I think it's actually shocking too, when people think the basic moral teachings of the Bible, which people are comfortable with on, on so many levels. I mean, even when, even when those verses of the 10 commandments tell us no, we realize that that no is actually something we need to listen to. People are shocked today when they realize that that's the kind of speech that's being legislated out of business. I mean, the church is, is right in the cross airs of this. And, and Mike, we see that with one of your other cases in Maine where the, the government is not starting to target Christian schools and put them in kind of a secondary status. Can you tell us a little bit about that main choice case?

Yeah, absolutely. This is another case that first Liberty is working on, uh, this one. We happen to be working with our, our friends at the Institute for justice, uh, as co-counsel the quick synopsis is that the state of Maine is discriminating against a, the right and the ability of parents to choose a religious education for their kids. You know, if anybody's, uh, who's listening has been to Maine you'll know that the state is actually quite rural. Um, there's not there isn't a lot of urban areas or urban centers in Maine. And for a lot of the citizens of Maine who live in these rural areas, there actually is no, uh, government run, uh, secondary school. No, there's no public high school in these rural areas, cuz there's just not enough funds or not enough people or whatever. So, uh, so parents are really have to, you know, left to their own devices to choose what type of, whether it's homeschool, whether it's sending their kids to a private school and that could be a private secular or private religious school.

And for many, many years, this wasn't an issue. And in fact, what the state of Maine would do was subsidize the parent's ability to provide for that education because that's what the state's obligation is to do. Right? You have to ensure that your children receiving an education, but uh, you know, fast forward and the state and a number of years ago, they, they decided that, well, we're gonna continue to subsidize education for the citizens of Maine, but only if they don't go to a religious school. So if you're a parent who decides that, you know what a religious education is best for my kids, the state says, oh, well, sorry. Although we're providing subsidies and funding for parents to send their kids to private schools that only applies if it's a private secular school, we will not allow it to go to a private religious school. And that's the question before the Supreme court is, is that form of discrimination constitutional. And I would submit that it's not, it's not constitutional. You can't once the government has decided to enter the, your arena of funding, private education and saying, we'll subsidize your education, they then can't choose which one who's who are winners and who are losers in that, in that effort.

Yeah. And the, and the bigger issue to me and Tim, you can talk to this too. The bigger issue to me is they're by definition. And they're saying, because school is more than just data. I mean, you don't, you're not a school just to learn data. There's also formation. There's virtue. All those kind of things are ha are part of that. And of course we could say there's a moralness to education as well. And, and so by definition, the state now is saying, and if you get a secular education, that's the secular virtuous education that we're gonna provide for you. And we're saying, wait a minute, first of all, the state shouldn't have anything to do with what kind of virtues we actually instill in our kids. But by definition now, or by, uh, I don't know, defacto, they're actually saying, um, we're not gonna, we're not gonna let Christian schools have an equal access into our own country. And so Tim, I mean, what's going on with this kind of stuff. When we start to talk about things like virtue and morality and formation, and these guys can actually put Christian schools, they can put 'em in kind of like not only second place, but at the back of the bus,

Uh, you know, we are not part of to the parties. We are partisan to the issues, but there is a very prominent gubernatorial campaign going on in this nation. Uh, and one of the men who wants to be governor actually said, and I'm floating him. I don't think parents should be telling schools what they should teach, you know, um, to, to the point that, uh, my friend Mike Barry was making a moment ago, uh, we have to go back to first principles and to restate the obvious parents are the first teachers of their children. The home is the first incubator of what it means to be educated. That's not a Christian idea. That's not a Jewish idea. That is a reality across the board. And can you imagine after rule war II, if the federal government had said in creation of the GI bill, listen, you can go to any public university or college, but you may not go to Notre Dame. You may not go to Georgia. You may not go to Concordia. I mean, that's ridiculous. We're Americans. And this is part of the reason that I think first Liberty, uh, and their partners in this in vitally important Supreme court case, why they will be successful.

Yeah. And parents first, I, you know, I tell people when in, in my talks around the country, that the parents are the ultimate authority in the lives of their children and, and, and schools and police and government, all that stuff is a delegated authority. You know, we still have responsibility and it goes down to this. I mean, whatever, they teach you at school, I still gotta put up with it. When the kids come home, I'm the one that feeds clothes, my children. And I, I also have a stake in, in them being ready to face life, um, as it comes at them. So there's virtue that's to be done there. And it's the audacity for the state to look at us and say, um, no, that's not your job. Uh, so again, you know, and, and Mike I'm, maybe I'm cynical here, but you know, the main case I was talking about, I don't, I think parental choice is the only way out of this stuff, because it's only when the parents can take their money and go to another school that I think these unions will either have to deal with us or to deal with this.

Cuz I'm hearing, you know, people are saying we're fighting the school boards were fighting these things, but they have our money. They have our children, the laws are on their side. The only way that we can maybe fight back is parental choice. Well, this main case, is that gonna be a helpful case if, if we were to win that case, would that be helpful to this? Or, or do we still have other things on the horizon?

Well, it'll certainly be helpful. It, it mean it, it, it will be a, a victory in one battle, uh, amidst the war, you know, and, and, and I think what's really happening here is

This Gettysburg.

I, I, I hope not. Um, but, uh, you know, I'm so glad that Tim is on with us because he'll know he, he, if anyone will know, it'll be, I heard this fantastic quote, uh, this morning actually, as I was, I was listening to a podcast and, and it was, um, you can change what people think, but you can't change what they believe. Um, and I don't know if I, I, for, for whatever reason, I can't remember who said it, but I, it just stuck in my head and I thought, you know, but that's exactly what the far left is trying to do here. They, they desire so desperately and they believe that they have the ability to change what people believe. I think that, that, that, that, that is fundamental to what they're trying to achieve in our country. And you link together the main case and the Alaska airlines case. And I think that's the common thread here is that, uh, if we can get to these children early enough and young enough, right, we can actually form and shape what they believe. So that later on, when they become these captains of industry and the, and, and the executive officers of these quote unquote corporations, uh, they can begin to legislate peoples morality and, and they can begin to terminate employees who would dared question whether you can legislate morality. And

Yeah. May I pick up on that for one second? Yes. Uh, the, the incubator in the classroom today, uh, will ultimately catalyze the leadership class of tomorrow, by the way, uh, it was the self-educated Abraham Lincoln. Uh, uh, he had this grasp of human nature, uh, and history and public policy. And he in the 19th century foresaw the kind of disaster from polarization that we are talking about, you know, in the 21st century. And he said that, and this is, you know, of all the great things that Lincoln said. He said, if destruction be our lot, meaning the lot of the United States, if destruction and be our law, he said, we must ourselves be its author and its finisher as a nation, a free men. This is Lincoln. We must live through all time or die by suicide. That's absolutely right. Uh, you know, uh, this is the, this is the concern and the fear of parent in this generation. They feel that the country they love is being erased, uh, and transformed without anybody asking their opinion. Uh, and, uh, I think that to Lincoln's point, it's never been more relevant than now. Uh, we are having a national conversation that is culturally, and we're gonna find out, uh, just where we're going in this, in this, uh, in this debate.

And I think, you know, Tim, what you're saying is, is right on, and, and the idea of whether you can be a self ruling person. Yes,

Yes.

Self discipline person, or whether you will be a governed person. And Lincoln was trying to say, wait a minute. You know, we're the ones, we're the authors of our, our own life here as a citizen. That's what makes America unique. And I think you're exactly right. Our kids are being tempted away from that is if there's something better than that. And we're saying, no, this, this is one of the best ways to live life. This side of heaven is to have that kind of self determination in a nation that, uh, that protects your freedom. And speaking of freedom, you know, again, Mike, when you think about these Navy seals that you're representing with this VAX mandate, I've, I've gotten phone calls and letters, uh, from some Marines also from, uh, kids going to school, they want a letter from me that says, you know, tell, tell these people that I have a religious exemption to this. And I, I tell 'em that. I said, we don't take a stand on that on the vaccine as a church per se, but you have individual Liberty to say this far and no farther when the government tells you to put something in your body. And I know you're, you're now you're dealing with these Navy seals who are protesting these mandates. Can you tell us about that case?

Yeah. You know, first Liberty Institute represents approximately 34 Navy seals. Um, these are the elite of the elite of our nation's military. Um, and they, uh, E every one of these, these courageous warriors has a sincere religious objection to the vaccine. Uh, and the religious objections are, are, are for varied reasons, you know, and, but they're all rooted in their religious faith and religious conviction, and they don't have to be uniform or, or, you know, based on the same, you know, paragraph or, or section of, of scripture. Uh, they don't even have to be based on the same, you know, religious faith tradition. And so, uh, but nevertheless, the department of defense, you know, to go back to go back to Tim, was referring to Lincoln, uh, I'll offer another famous Lincoln quote, a coerced virtue is no virtue at all. And that is exactly what the department of defense here is saying is, well, uh, we believe that, uh, you putting this experimental, you know, vaccine into your body is best for you, despite the fact that these Navy seals are, uh, I would argue, uh, in better physical condition than probably anyone, the three of us know, Hey, wait a minute.

I heard a commentator recently refer to them as the Olympic athletes of the military. Um, and yet the department of defense is saying, no, no, no, we know better than you do what you need to do with your bodies. Um, we, so this is, you know, this is your coerced virtue, right? In effect here is that, uh, and yet we are, or it doesn't matter what your religious beliefs are. And they're now being told, okay, fine. We understand that federal law requires us as the military to at least show respect to your religious beliefs and to give you the opportunity to seek a religious exemption. And we're gonna allow you the opportunity to seek a religious exemption. But if you do, we're going to remove you from the Navy seal community. So it's a catch 22 for these Navy seals. Uh, it's either get the vaccine which violates their conscience and their individual religious Liberty, um, or ask for a religious exemption and they don't get to be a Navy seal anymore. They defy the orders of the military and they could get court marshal. They could be kicked out. So, which also means in effect, they don't get to be a Navy seal anymore. Um, I never thought I would see the day in our country when our military and our government was forcing service members to choose between their faith and their service. But yet here we are.

Yeah. And you know, when you think about that, Mike, I mean, faith and service, the, the founding fathers understood that our religious Liberty was fundamental to all other liberties. Well, now you're seeing a government that thinks of religious Liberty as something that it can dispense with whenever it feels like it. And people, you better understand this, what replaces that, what replaces Liberty self-disciplined and, and, and caring community type of citizens is the power O of, of the government. And when the government has that kind of power, um, your, your liberties are the first thing to go. I mean,

I, I wanna, I wanna add this to that, to that point, though, Greg is what you just said is if you study any to, to regime in history, you'll see that religious Liberty is almost always the very first flash point, right? When there was a, when there was a takeover of power. And the reason is because the totalitarian regime, the one thing they cannot tolerate is a group of people who says, we submit to a higher authority than the government. And when the government realizes that there is a group of people, whether it is an entire people group in Eastern Europe, or in this case, whether it's 34 Navy seals who says, I'm sorry, but I submit to a higher authority than the Navy, then the secretary of defense, or even then the commander in chief himself. And I cannot do what God forbids in, in my own unique, you know, in my individual circumstance. And when, when the government finds out that there is a group of people or citizens who say that that's always the first ones they're gonna go after. And that's what we're seeing with these Navy seals

And, you know, rice, Tim, he talked about this in one of those quotes about the issues between modernists and pre modernists. And of course he calls us pre modernists. And he said, those who believe in a higher authority there individuality comes from a higher authority. And those of us who just believe in the individual while he's at war with our constitutional freedoms in that statement, because our founder documents talk about the unalienable rights we have, because God created us. It's a fundamental issue we're dealing with, right?

The answer is yes. And to marry Mike's, uh, point about the department of defense and to, you know, to your question about, uh, the coercion of government this week, uh, here in Washington, we, uh, saw over 60 members of Congress, uh, send a letter, uh, to the attorney general and the department of justice. They are demanding answers as to why the department of justice is targeting parents, uh, who oppose critical race theory. That's right. Uh, and why the department of justice is taught, targeting, uh, parents who, uh, oppose mask mandates in schools. Uh, you know, uh, we have to realize that, that the attorney general, uh, has sent a memo to the FBI, uh, saying, uh, you know, there's been this disturbing spike, uh, and maybe, you know, we need to who, uh, uh, you know, get involved in overseeing our nation's, uh, schools. So, I mean, these are very deep waters and, uh, it is Congress's job, uh, constitutionally, uh, you know, to take a look. And I think the closer we look at this, uh, we realize, uh, that, uh, that it's, that it's nothing that, that ultimately is consistent with the founding, uh, of our nation.

Yeah, it is outrageous. We haven't even talked about that. It's outrageous when you can label people again, who disagree as domestic terrorists, because they have this disagreement about what's being taught their children, but that's where, uh, we are today. So, you know, again, I think we've been talk, we've been talking to Mike Barry from, uh, first Liberty Institute and Tim Galine from focus on the family. I think we would all agree that the state that is, uh, coercing thought is a state that's out of control. And thank God we have first amendment liberties to push back on that. Yes. All right. Well, um, Mike, thanks for fighting the good fight, you know, in the courts. And, uh, again, people can go to first Liberty Institute's website and kind of see more about that, correct? Absolutely.

First liberty.org,

First liberty.org, Tim, thanks for, or your work, keeping people informed about the issues on the hill. It's been really great working with you at, uh, especially with, uh, focus also with our LCR here in DC.

Thank you so much, Greg and Mike has ever great to be with you and both of you.

Thanks for tuning in today to get to know our L C L DC work better. Check out our website@crlfreedom.org contain. There are resources to empower your public square dynamic discipleship till next time. God bless you always I'm Gregory. Seltz have a great week.

You've been listening to Liberty alert with Dr. Gregory Seltz executive director of the Lutheran center for religious Liberty in what she did in DC. This program has been brought to you by the Lutheran center for religious Liberty.