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Saving the Orangutan from Extinction. Leif Cocks
Episode 16628th March 2022 • Your Positive Imprint • Catherine Praiswater
00:00:00 00:31:33

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Biologist Leif Cocks began observing and interacting with animals as a zookeeper with the Perth Zoo. Today he studies and interrelates with orangutans in the wild within their own habitat. Adventure with Leif on a journey of his research and saving the critically endangered orangutan.

Transcripts

Leif Cocks:

The individual orangutans that we save and give the opportunity to live a free and happy life is a lifetime achievement of immeasurable value.

Leif Cocks:

Well

Catherine:

thank you so much for listening to all of these amazing and exceptional, positive imprints.

Catherine:

I'm Catherine, your host for the podcast, your positive imprint, the variety show, featuring people all over the world whose positive actions are inspiring.

Catherine:

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Catherine:

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that's c h r i s n o l e

Catherine:

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Catherine:

Enjoy the show and get inspired to activate your own positive imprint.

Catherine:

Your positive imprint.

Catherine:

What's your PI.

Catherine:

Leif Cocks made a life choice based upon not having animals suffer for him.

Catherine:

Leif began his career with the Perth zoo in Perth, Australia, where he met, observed and interacted with many of the animals.

Catherine:

Through his zoological journey.

Catherine:

He discovered orangutans and their intelligence.

Catherine:

There is so much to Leif and his work throughout the years.

Catherine:

First, he has several academic qualifications as a zoologist and biologist.

Catherine:

His research is peer reviewed.

Catherine:

He has worked and continues to work with species management programs worldwide while continuing campaigning and lobbying for animal welfare in the wild, including the

Catherine:

He is dedicated to habitat protection.

Catherine:

Leif has a passion and he says it best.

Catherine:

My work with the zoo had instilled within me an iron clad determination to make a practical and lasting difference for all orangutans and other beings on the planet.

Catherine:

And I am so honored and so thrilled to bring Leif Cocks and his positive imprints to you.

Catherine:

Leif, welcome to the show.

Leif Cocks:

Thank you.

Leif Cocks:

It's wonderful to be here..

Catherine:

Oh, thank you.

Catherine:

I'm excited.

Catherine:

I've read.

Catherine:

I'm still in the process of finishing one of your books and learning so much about everything that you've done and have gone through, but have also gone through with the

Catherine:

And you're bringing a wealth of knowledge not just knowledge, but research, for generations and generations to come.

Catherine:

You started so young with your journey.

Catherine:

And I know there's a quote that you used, which I really, really liked "what you seek is seeking you" by Rūmī.

Catherine:

Leif let's start with your absolute passion.

Leif Cocks:

I've working with 15 orangutans, as you mentioned, and then discovered not only that, they're wonderful beings, but the self-aware persons

Leif Cocks:

that don't belong in captivity.

Leif Cocks:

In fact, they don't do well in captivity and they can only thrive while living in their own culture and communities in the wild.

Leif Cocks:

And of course at the same time, discovering that they're critically endangered species being driven to extinction by having been individually slaughtered on a mass scale.

Leif Cocks:

And, and therefore that started on my journey to, save the orangutans, but not only in doing that, helping save other living beings, such as tigers, elephants, indigenous human communities.

Leif Cocks:

And of course, protecting the habitat is one of the most effective things we can do to mitigate climate

Catherine:

change.

Catherine:

Change.

Catherine:

Oh, absolutely.

Catherine:

Working with animals in captivity was a journey for Leif.

Catherine:

But through his research and observations, he grew from that knowledge.

Leif Cocks:

There's two things.

Leif Cocks:

One, we need to base information on facts and knowledge and open to that knowledge, changing with new information rather than set in our ways.

Leif Cocks:

But in particular, you, we discover, let's say in any industry, there's kind of a cult like atmosphere with the human ability of a cognitive dissonance.

Leif Cocks:

And so there's inability for a organization or a association like zoos to understand what has changed about knowledge, about keeping animals in captivity and grow out of

Leif Cocks:

And those who challenge those ideas often excluded and persecuted because that's affecting the integrity and survival of the tribe.

Leif Cocks:

And so in some ways we have to become as more enightened, but in other ways we have to overcome the natural tribal evolutionary tendencies that keeps us trapped in these false paradigms and not to be afraid to grow.

Catherine:

So that is so easy to talk about.

Catherine:

Right.

Catherine:

How do we change that mindset?

Catherine:

Because it can't just be one person or two people or three people that are going to change the world.

Catherine:

We have people like you in the field

Catherine:

. Of course, Jane Goodall, but there are so many more people out there.

Catherine:

So how do we change that mindset?

Leif Cocks:

Yeah, no, exactly.

Leif Cocks:

It's difficult at one, at one point is, an example.

Leif Cocks:

I was went to a zoo and, and they showed me their orangatans and I said, oh, your orangatan really mentally distraught, and not doing very well.

Leif Cocks:

And the zookeeper said, looks right to me, he's perfectly fine.

Leif Cocks:

And actually it looks just like that orangutan down there at the zoo down the road and they all act the same.

Leif Cocks:

And of course you're absolutely right.

Leif Cocks:

It's a bit like a, I dunno, prison, guard, in describing how humans behave based on their only experiences, dealing with violent criminals or people who are in very unusual and stressful situation.

Leif Cocks:

And so it's very hard because, from a very early stage, when I started working for orangutan, I would go to the wild.

Leif Cocks:

Look at them in in the wild, rescue them, you know, and then stop their journey to captivity.

Leif Cocks:

So I had a very different perspective.

Leif Cocks:

I was coming back and comparing two very different animals, which most zookeepers don't have, the ability their experience it is extremely narrow, you know?

Leif Cocks:

And and the fact that the orangutans were dying far too early, uh, mentally stressed and had all sorts of problems just seemed normal because you didn't have that context.

Leif Cocks:

And so, so there needs to be expansion of understanding.

Leif Cocks:

And of course, being in the zoo industry, they set themselves up in the public as the experts.

Leif Cocks:

And therefore it's very hard for them to intercept outside new information and the fact that they may not be doing right or the future may not be what their expertise is in.

Leif Cocks:

It's very threatening.

Leif Cocks:

Therefore they need to exclude, all that information and actually deny it.

Leif Cocks:

This is why it's not possible to really, make really good things happen in the world, unless we reform the world, unless we reform ourselves, and become less egocentric, more

Leif Cocks:

We can't reform the world unless we reform ourselves.

Leif Cocks:

But on the opposite side of things is, we have to be fearless with our advice and knowledge and not be afraid to speak truth to power.

Leif Cocks:

But we also have to do that in the most loving way that we can do.

Leif Cocks:

Because we want people to change their minds that come along the journey you have to provide that loving space to allow them to change.

Leif Cocks:

Because they're automatically, even just by the next information alone will feel uh, they have to defend it.

Leif Cocks:

And if they're in a cultural cult where all others need to defend that paradigm, there's no possibility of change, but we can chip away with it

Leif Cocks:

if we constantly provide information in a loving and caring manner and allow the opportunity for, for people in organizations to move forward.

Catherine:

You have seen life for an orangutan in a zoo in captivity.

Catherine:

You've also worked with them in the wild.

Catherine:

You have released an animal that was bred in captivity.

Catherine:

Your journey is incredible, truly incredible.

Catherine:

And the knowledge and the research that you have is extremely informative.

Leif Cocks:

Yeah.

Leif Cocks:

Yeah.

Leif Cocks:

So in general, I, I think it's like having two wings of the bird, knowledge and love.

Leif Cocks:

And if you have one of those wings broken, you go around in circles, and you don't achieve any thing..

Leif Cocks:

Both are necessary to keep meaningful outcomes.

Leif Cocks:

One of the most wonderful experiences I've had in many times is being with many orangutans when they're giving birth, which is a wonderful experience.

Leif Cocks:

They're the most loving mothers.

Leif Cocks:

They suckle the infants for eight years.

Leif Cocks:

But at least for me personally, different to maybe how others zoo keepers interact with orangutans, because they're seven times stronger than the man and they potentially could hurt you.

Leif Cocks:

They always have a cage between them and that the big yellow line on the floor don't go beyond this otherwise the orangutan will get you, but all my working life, I just walked in with the enclosures

Leif Cocks:

So it's a very different relationship to take those bars away and, and, and have a personal relationship with them.

Leif Cocks:

And one of the most wonderful experiences I've had many times within 48 hours of the baby giving birth, the mother always takes a little baby's hand and makes it hold my finger.

Leif Cocks:

And so you get that, very early connection, with this beautiful little life that has just come into this world.

Catherine:

Which is incredible.

Catherine:

So people around the world, most people will never, ever have that experience.

Catherine:

So how do you instill that love and protection or conservation preservation?

Leif Cocks:

Yeah, I mean, maybe I need to categorize what, what love really is and love is the external expression of your joy into the world.

Leif Cocks:

As you know, if you're unhappy, you make the world unhappy, you snap at it.

Leif Cocks:

But if you're happy, you want to share that happiness.

Leif Cocks:

You want everyone to be happy and joyous.

Leif Cocks:

And so often what we call love is just the modification of selfishness.

Leif Cocks:

You may love your husband or your wife or your family, your community, or your country, but it's all about exclusion of others.

Leif Cocks:

So it's outside your boundary of what you call love.

Leif Cocks:

Real love comes out and has no boundaries, and so that needs to be, what is expressed.

Leif Cocks:

You connect with the beauty in life, you connect with everything and not only you're spreading the joy out, you can see that connecting and flowing back to you and orangutans are perfect examples of this.

Leif Cocks:

Because in many ways they're more noble form of person than the human being.

Leif Cocks:

They're not capable of the horror that human beings are capable of.

Leif Cocks:

So much horror and destruction.

Leif Cocks:

Orangutans don't have that side, they're not capable of looking at another being, wanting to destroy them.

Leif Cocks:

And this is probably because they have beautiful, nurturing, loving upbringing, which makes them very confident, independent, and self-assured in themselves.

Leif Cocks:

So they're, not very needy.

Leif Cocks:

They can really use expressing themselves as pure beings.

Leif Cocks:

But of course the other part of your question as well, how can people connect.

Leif Cocks:

. Well, one of the things I always recommend is coming on one of my tours where we go into the jungle, which is like coming home, you know, because we're involved in the jungle and have that experience and

Leif Cocks:

It's kind of irrelevant., one of the popular things people want to do is save the whales, how many people have met a whale?.

Leif Cocks:

Right.

Leif Cocks:

Probably a very small fraction.

Leif Cocks:

It's necessarily just knowledge.

Leif Cocks:

Every child is mad about dinosaurs, who has never seen one, you know, passionate about it.

Leif Cocks:

And so through knowledge and connection we can feel that we can expand a love to the most vulnerable persons on the planet.

Leif Cocks:

But because they're not from this species, they have no rights and so at the most ineffective, most vulnerable persons on our planet and therefore needing so

Leif Cocks:

And as mentioned, these things are all win-win for climate change, indigenous communities, all the other biodiversity, but to

Leif Cocks:

circle back a life of selfless action and compassion for others, even those who can never give the feedback to us, never reward us even with a thank you or anything.

Leif Cocks:

That actually ends up to be a life of absolute reward and fulfillment.

Leif Cocks:

And so as we grow , we extend the compassion beyond people and beings that we've never even met.

Leif Cocks:

We, we find that there's there's increasing reward not in name, fame, money or power, but in happiness as we become less and less selfish and more and more selfless.

Catherine:

That's certainly the hope for tomorrow.

Catherine:

There's people all over the world they really are seeking peace.

Catherine:

Leif recounts Temara's story from captivity back home into the wild.

Leif Cocks:

Yeah, yeah.

Leif Cocks:

Temara.

Leif Cocks:

I ended up facilitating the inaudible of three orangutans from the zoo and Temara were the first one, in fact, the first zoo-born orangutan to ever go back to the wild.

Leif Cocks:

And so, yeah, just taking on a journey from birth, being with her since she was born with her mother Puteri.

Leif Cocks:

Then when she's at the natural age of dispersion, we, we made this huge fig tree in the middle of the, the middle of the city this huge fig tree that we, we had

Leif Cocks:

And then we started speaking Indonesian and basically starting the journey there.

Leif Cocks:

Then transporting her to Indonesia and then keeping her in a cage for two weeks as she climatized.

Leif Cocks:

And then we would go out every morning, bringing the food into her, finding the fruit and bring it into her.

Leif Cocks:

So she would learn and looking at all the different monkeys and insects and eating all the food.

Leif Cocks:

And then of course, even the real journey starts when we open that cage and we let her out.

Leif Cocks:

And then myself for the first bit and the Orangutan Project's project manager, Kylie was, with me.

Leif Cocks:

And then eventually we handed over to the Indonesian technicians who then followed her for three years until she was able to totally survive on her own.

Leif Cocks:

And then of course I had the privilege of going back to the jungle that we are protecting with wildlife protection units we fund and actually holding her hand in the forest.

Leif Cocks:

For the first time it's two free independent persons

Leif Cocks:

mutually connecting in, in her home environment.

Catherine:

Isn't that such a remarkable story.

Catherine:

That just, brings your work and working so hard to free them so that they continue to be free the rest of their lives in the wild.

Catherine:

Orangutan, that is particularly interesting to me as to the name and how ancient the name is,

Leif Cocks:

"Orang" is, a person and "hutan" is is forest so uh, basically I mean means forest person.

Leif Cocks:

Yeah, so that's Malaysian or Indonesian language.

Leif Cocks:

That's been common use since early Dutch times in Indonesia,

Catherine:

And then the DNA.

Catherine:

That is something that we forget.

Catherine:

We learn it in high school, we learned it in college, but then we forget when we walk out what our DNA percentages are with the primates.

Leif Cocks:

Yeah.

Leif Cocks:

Yeah.

Leif Cocks:

So, I mean, there's two things.

Leif Cocks:

Obviously we're a close relative of the orangutan.

Leif Cocks:

But more importantly, we're both persons and I just quickly describe what that means.

Leif Cocks:

A person is when there's consciousness, which experiences the world through thoughts, feelings, and experiences.

Leif Cocks:

At a certain stage in the evolution of the mind the concept of individual identity comes up and connects the experiences of the past, present and future in a continuity

Leif Cocks:

This is in sense symbolic of let's say in the Bible of the Apple of Knowledge where, you know they eat the apple of knowledge and suddenly becomes self-aware.

Leif Cocks:

They know that I I'm this body, I am naked.

Leif Cocks:

And course what happens then is they get expelled from the garden of Eden and have to suffer because as we all know, the vast majority of our suffering is mental.

Leif Cocks:

So we can be living in a lack of luxury and the anxiety it's about the past and the worries about the future caused us suffering.

Leif Cocks:

Orangutans have a very self-aware sense of individual identity.

Leif Cocks:

This is why it makes it so much more important that we don't kill them and destroy them and make them suffer.

Leif Cocks:

And reason why they cannot be kept in captivity humanely because persons including us, don't do well in captivity because we need to control who,

Catherine:

We know that animals all over the world are treated inhumanely and they are killed in horrific manners.

Catherine:

But we can't just, be reactionary, become active as you did.

Leif Cocks:

Yeah.

Leif Cocks:

I mean, there's two elements to this.

Leif Cocks:

. We have to reform ourselves and we have to have some integrity.

Leif Cocks:

We can't be saying we love animals and have them killed and eaten for the pleasure of their taste.

Leif Cocks:

Ultimately it's for the benefit of everybody because, atom agriculture's causing one third of climate change and destroying the rainforest.

Leif Cocks:

So we have to, one is to have that personal integrity, but then the other aspect to it is in order to achieve anything meaningful, we have to collectivize.

Leif Cocks:

If I just become the most environmentally friendly individual and sit there and say, well, it's not me.

Leif Cocks:

The world will still be destroyed because we have to collectivize to make meaningful actions.

Leif Cocks:

And so the Orangutan Project is, is about one collectivizations and saying, okay, as individuals we have to have that individual integrity and action, but

Leif Cocks:

Climate scientists tell us, and this is the same situation for the orangutans in the rainforest- after 10 years, the ecosystems and the climate will start collapsing on top of itself.

Leif Cocks:

So we are living in the most important 10 years in a whole of human history of hundreds of thousands of years, as species has survived and existed.

Leif Cocks:

And we can't pass that obligation on a few generations because it'd be too late.

Leif Cocks:

And so we have to intelligently collectivize now to make the meaningful changes.

Leif Cocks:

In this case, for us, it's about saving the orangutans.

Leif Cocks:

But in that process intelligently saving orangutans for the benefit of all.

Leif Cocks:

We are doing probably the most cost effective ways of saving the planet; cost effective ways of supporting women's rights in communities' cost effective way of supporting indigenous communities.

Leif Cocks:

And by diversity in the economic future of Indonesia, all those things come along with it.

Leif Cocks:

Because love and compassion for other beings, is a win-win situation from the individual to the, to the whole planet.

Leif Cocks:

And selfishness not only helps destroy the planet but eventually it destroys the individual that seeks to gain through selfish actions.

Catherine:

I congratulate you for the way you live your life.

Catherine:

Your message is one of compassion and not judgmental.

Leif Cocks:

Yeah.

Leif Cocks:

I think that's very important.

Leif Cocks:

We have to judge, but never be judgmental because in essence who we are, we're all flawed individuals.

Leif Cocks:

There's no perfection in creation.

Leif Cocks:

And so for us to judge others, is not right.

Leif Cocks:

But also not effective in making meaningful change.

Leif Cocks:

But in a broader context of what we're speaking about, we don't have to give up anything.

Leif Cocks:

If we take up the higher, the lower just naturally falls off.

Leif Cocks:

If we take up the mantle of love and compassion, the desire for meat, , just falls off.

Leif Cocks:

If you find happiness within yourself to desire for alcohol to numb yourself temporarily just falls off it become well

Leif Cocks:

what was the point?

Leif Cocks:

In fact, trying to give anything up is always impossible because there's a natural resistance and we're fighting ourselves.

Leif Cocks:

But if we take up the higher ideals in life, reform ourselves and find that love and joy and, and selfless service to others, all that stuff just drops off.

Leif Cocks:

And others will, in a sense, look at your life and go, oh, you live a life of sacrifice.

Leif Cocks:

And giving up things, for the cause.

Leif Cocks:

And of course it could be farther from the truth.

Leif Cocks:

You've picked up a life of selfless service service was full of joy, happiness, and reward.

Leif Cocks:

And those things that people think are important that should make your life happy are just meaningless to you.

Leif Cocks:

They just fall on the way.

Leif Cocks:

, and of course it's the opposite.

Leif Cocks:

Sometimes people try to reform the world without reform themselves.

Leif Cocks:

Two things will happen.

Leif Cocks:

Eventually the desire for name, fame power money will start destroying it because they're fighting all the other people.

Leif Cocks:

They still need at this very selfish, painful level, this reward from outside to keep their egos going.

Leif Cocks:

The other thing is they might feel to themselves, I'm sacrificing so much in me and then they get resentful.

Leif Cocks:

I've sacrificed my life.

Leif Cocks:

I could be earning more money.

Leif Cocks:

I've done this and I've, and I haven't gotten any respect, reward or money.

Leif Cocks:

You know, this is how they end up resentful at the end of the process.

Leif Cocks:

And that's not the way.

Leif Cocks:

You end up destroying everything you create.

Leif Cocks:

The true path is selfless surrender.

Leif Cocks:

So it's a win-win situation is what I'm describing.

Leif Cocks:

And that's everything we need to do from, I will say it's not wildlife vs.

Leif Cocks:

People, it's not the environment versus the economy.

Leif Cocks:

It's not about you giving things up and suffering for others.

Leif Cocks:

What I'm proposing is, is this possibility of this is a win-win for you, what you're trying to achieve and how you collectivize with others to key some meaningful impact in the world and the entire planet.

Catherine:

When I go into stores, I read the ingredients, both my husband and I do.

Catherine:

We're very conscientious about what we purchase.

Catherine:

And so that brings me to the Palm oil.

Catherine:

Palm oil to not have it at all is not a solution to saving the orangutan.

Catherine:

How are we going to move the populations forward?

Catherine:

Leif explains indiscriminate charity.

Leif Cocks:

Ultimately it's about compassion for others, but more specifically is what we know is indiscriminate charity causes more problems in the world than creates and things like going Palm oil free

Leif Cocks:

it does a couple of things and it doesn't achieve anything in the real world.

Leif Cocks:

Actually reduces the capacity for organizations to do things because people say, well, I've done my bit and therefore they don't contribute and collectivize.

Leif Cocks:

So it's actually a double negative.

Leif Cocks:

They're not achieving anything.

Leif Cocks:

Uh, and secondly, that, because they feel that they've been or, they've been told they're achieving something, then they, they, they don't actually engage and collectivize with others to make a meaningful change.

Leif Cocks:

So what we're trying to do, and I call this intelligent actions.

Leif Cocks:

George Bernard Shaw once said his most intelligent man I ever met was his tailor.

Leif Cocks:

And when asked why why his tailor was the most intelligent man because George he was considered a very intelligent man.

Leif Cocks:

So he said, because every time I go in, he takes new measurements.

Leif Cocks:

In other words, he always checked for new information and made a decision based on direct observation and never relied on previous past information.

Leif Cocks:

So similarly let's say we're trying to save a rainforest and somebody would come along it's educating local people or they'll say planting trees.

Leif Cocks:

And so it's a bit like I'm going to a doctor with an ailment different ailments each time and he gives you the same medicine, the same dosage.

Leif Cocks:

He really, oh, well, hold it.

Leif Cocks:

You know, you, you are a quack and conservation is like that.

Leif Cocks:

Let's plant trees.

Leif Cocks:

Let's have rangers.

Leif Cocks:

Let's have community education.

Leif Cocks:

Yeah.

Leif Cocks:

But what you need to do is look at each ecosystem, know about how it needs to be pieced together, for, that ecosystem to survive.

Leif Cocks:

And then you look at what the disease on an ecosystem.

Leif Cocks:

Does it need protection, does it need community development.

Leif Cocks:

Does it need orangutan re-introduction to reestablish an extinct population.

Leif Cocks:

What does it need??

Leif Cocks:

And then you diagnose the disease and put the application and right medicine, the right dosage.

Leif Cocks:

Yeah.

Leif Cocks:

And so that's, what's in intelligent application.

Leif Cocks:

Let's say the anti Palm Oil people achieve their aim and tomorrow palm oil were banned the forest would still disappear because essentially they're cutting the forest down

Leif Cocks:

And if palm oil was the only thing that you can gain profit from destroying forest you could do something, but it's not, they'll plant sugar Palm they'll plant rubber they'll plant pulp

Leif Cocks:

Oh, okay.

Leif Cocks:

That company is no longer going to influence government to get the forest and destroy it.

Leif Cocks:

And then there's 20 other companies that simply move in and destroy that same forest the next day.

Leif Cocks:

You know, because it's about land use planning.

Leif Cocks:

It's about protection.

Leif Cocks:

It's about government regulations.

Leif Cocks:

These things which protect forests, the companies may influence that.

Leif Cocks:

Yeah.

Leif Cocks:

But there's many companies influencing that.

Leif Cocks:

And so this is why so many good people have been working for conservation for 20, 30 years and the rain forest just keeps disappearing, disappearing, disappearing.

Leif Cocks:

And my proposition that we don't have time to play anymore.

Leif Cocks:

We need to look at each ecosystem that we can piece together and survive the, this extinction crisis and apply specific knowledge in specific actions.

Leif Cocks:

Unfortunately, it's really dreadful for marketing.

Leif Cocks:

Marketing you want a simple solution,- plant a tree, build a wall.

Leif Cocks:

These kinds of simplistic solutions where the positive and negative capture people's imagination

Leif Cocks:

that's what people want.

Leif Cocks:

In a time of crisis, our psychology we want a strong man to say that one simple solution was, you've got to save the tribe.

Leif Cocks:

You know, this is, this is why everyone gets hoodwinked.

Leif Cocks:

It's very appealing to a tribal mind.

Leif Cocks:

That's why with, autocratic regime, the autocrats are falling into favor now, in America or in England and elsewhere because our tribal brain is not fully adapted to survive in such a complex world.

Leif Cocks:

It's no fault of anybody to get pick up on simple solution and engage in it.

Leif Cocks:

What we're seeing is every civilization, from south America or the Mesopotamia, it's actually fallen down through ecological destruction of its immediate environment, ; agriculture developed

Leif Cocks:

We're seeing it and we're doing this on a global scale and we're just following the same traditional pattern, watching our civilization slowly reach the limits of this

Leif Cocks:

And we're going to collapse in on itself, but we have the opportunity one for a better word, spiritual and moral evolution.

Leif Cocks:

So we have as human beings, this capacity, to come out of that tribal framework, we have this opportunity now.

Leif Cocks:

So, we all should just give it our best shot.

Catherine:

Part two with icon Leif Cocks next week.

Catherine:

To learn more check out LeifCox.org, L E I F C O C K S or TheOrangutangProject.org and include the word the.

Catherine:

Orangutan is O R AN G U T AN.

Catherine:

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