89. School Counseling VS School Social Work: Working together as a collaborative unit with Cayce Batts
Episode 894th December 2024 • Counselor Chat Podcast • Carol Miller, School Counselor
00:00:00 00:37:28

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In this episode of Counselor Chat, I’m joined by Dr. Cayce Batts, Social Work Educator and former K-12 School Social Worker in Kentucky, to explore the power of collaboration between school counselors and social workers. If you’ve ever wondered how these roles can work together seamlessly to better serve students, this conversation is for you!

Cayce and I dive into the unique strengths and focus areas of each profession, the importance of setting boundaries while remaining flexible, and how building strong partnerships can lead to a bigger impact. Whether you’re a school counselor or social worker—or just curious about how to strengthen teamwork in your school—you’ll walk away with actionable tips to enhance collaboration and improve outcomes for students.

What You’ll Learn in This Episode:

  • How school counselors and social workers complement each other’s roles.
  • The differences between the clinical lens of a social worker and the academic focus of a school counselor.
  • Ways to identify your strengths and share responsibilities effectively.
  • Why communication and regular meetings are key to successful teamwork.
  • Tips for fostering partnerships, setting boundaries, and celebrating wins.


Grab the Show Notes: Counselingessentials.org/podcast


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Transcripts

Carol: You're listening to the Counselor Chat podcast, a show for school counselors looking for easy to implement strategies, how to tips, collaboration and a little spark of joy. I'm Carol Miller, your host.

I'm a full time school counselor and the face behind counseling Essentials. I'm all about creating simplified systems, data driven practices, and using creative approaches to engage students. If you're looking for a little inspiration to help you make a big impact on student growth and success, you're in the right place because we're better together.

Ready to chat. Let's dive in.

Hello everyone and welcome back to another episode of Counselor Chat. I am so excited that you're here with us today and as always, I am really thankful that you are just spending your time with me and giving us a listen.

Today I have something special for you. I actually have a guest on and her name is Dr. Casey Betts and Casey is a K12 social worker, a school social worker and she works at the Fulton Independent Schools in Kentucky and she's here with us today really just to share how school counselors and social workers can really work best together.

So with that, Casey, I want to say hi. Welcome. Thanks for joining us today and if you want to share a little bit about yourself and your journey of school social work with our listeners.

Cayce: Hi Carol, and thank you so much for having me here today. I'm very excited and must admit that this is my first time recording a podcast. So very honored to be here with you, especially as I enjoy and use a lot of your products from your Teachers Pay Teachers website.

So as she shared, My name is Dr. Casey Batts and I am a school social worker in the state of Kentucky. Really enjoy my position as school social as a school social worker and also teach courses at the collegiate level on school social work.

So excited to bring my experience and background to share with you a little bit today about how school social work and school counselors can collaborate and also the differences and the unique components to each position.

Carol: I really can't wait for this interview because I know that I'm sure like I have the Facebook groups and I've been running them for about 11 years and I think the question that comes up over and over and over again is hey, we're getting a social worker.

Or I also run the social worker group, the school social worker group and from them from that side it's how do I work with my school counselor? Or we now have this extra position and how do we balance everything?

So I think this is going to be a really great Conversation?

Cayce: Yeah, absolutely. I find myself as a school social worker, I've asked myself those same questions and have been in those exact Facebook groups that you're talking about. And seeing those questions and those comments, I think it really begs the question of how can we work together to maximize our services and our strengths and our skill sets from two different perspectives.

Carol: Exactly. So can you describe for everyone, how do you see your role as a social worker, and how do you think it differs from your traditional school counselor?

Cayce: Yeah, absolutely. So as a school social worker, really coming from that social work perspective, we focus on the social, emotional, and mental health or wellbeing of a student.

Our primary focus, our mission, is to provide any services that really support the student socially, emotionally, mentally. I think sometimes that can differ from a school counselor a little bit, and not entirely by any means, but we don't typically have as much emphasis or focus on, like, the academic or career side of things.

So there's not any expectation for, like, career preparation or meeting academic standards or course credit recovery or anything like that. So that can be one of the main differences in my experience.

In the state of Kentucky, you must have a master's degree to be a school social worker. Because I have my LCSW and I am licensed, my position has been more clinical than a typical school counselor role.

Really just work with our school counselor to delegate and figure out where each of our skill sets can be utilized so that we provide thorough and thorough wraparound services for the students.

Carol: Yeah, I will say I don't know of any state in the US where school counselors do not have master's degree. So we're right up there with you that we also need a master's degree.

And I think, really for our role, our roles in mental health, I think that is really crucial to providing the. The best possible services for our kids. And I know that a lot of states, master's degrees aren't required for teaching positions, but in New York, of course they are.

And I don't know how states can really get by without having their people have masters, But I don't know. That's just. That's another subject for another day.

Cayce: Yes, it is, and I concur with that comment.

Carol: But I don't know. Tell me if you agree with this, because when I think of the differences between a school counselor and a social worker, I'm really thinking of it as like an MTSS perspective with your different tiers of services and because, yeah, we do focus a little bit more on the academic portions, but especially now that I'm an elementary counselor, we really deal with all the feels, right?

All the emotions, all the social emotional stuff. And maybe at the high school level we don't have as much time for that. But we are dealing with it all at the elementary level.

I really see for school counselors we're really doing all that tier one work. We are providing all the preventative stuff, right? We're giving the lessons, we're teaching all about how to regulate emotions and what different coping skills are and how our brain functions and why emotions, why we have them in the first place.

And then we also get into that tier 2. We are providing those intervention services for our kids that really don't quite get the tier one. They need that little extra.

We're going to provide them those that intervention model. And then I think depending on where you might actually work, like in my building we don't have a social worker. So I get into a little bit of the tier three because I have to do some IEP counseling.

But that's really, that's another whole other thing. Like we should be leaving that part to you guys really. But sometimes we have to do that as well.

Cayce: Yeah, you're right. Sometimes we have to pick up the pieces. And I think regardless if you're a school social worker or a school counselor, that's what we do, right? We see a need and we meet it regardless of how we have to do that.

So in my experience, I completely agree that the role for both of us in MTSS and an RTI is crucial specifically like behavioral rti. So I was on our school, a PBIS school, and I sat in on all those meetings and was part of the decision making body that implemented the policies that we have and the protocols that we have.

All tier 2 and tier 3 referrals came to me at the tier 2 level that looked like running small groups, targeted small groups referrals based on behavioral concerns or social emotional mental health concerns.

So most of my small groups were at the elementary level, but I did run some with the middle school and high school depending on each student and our criteria for determining who is tier 2 or tier 3.

Some students received here the small group interventions with me as well as individual psychotherapy. I would meet with those students individually ongoing to provide behavioral interventions for that student. So also was really had a big part in collaborating with the teachers to make sure that they were implementing the behavior plan or the treatment plan in the classroom to make sure that everything was done with fidelity so that we could really support the students in the best way.

Possible.

Carol: Yeah. I have only really been lucky enough to work in one building where we had a social worker. And it was such a great, I think a great fit, a great mesh.

Because, yeah, she did a lot of that, that psychotherapy and I did kind of like the psycho educational. And I think that's how we kind of split up the two.

Because I, I think one of my specialties is groups. Like, I have run a ton of groups. I've written group curriculum. I've had books published on that. I like, I was all about the groups, the individual counseling.

If I could push that off for her, she would. And she loved it. So she was like, yeah, give it all to me. So we definitely played on each other's strengths, but I think that also moved us into the tears as well.

Cayce: Yeah. And I think that's a beautiful example of just how you can maximize the skill set and the perspectives that we both come from to really maximize the services that we deliver and that we offer.

Carol: I'm going to bounce off that because I think the one thing that you said is how you bring that clinical lens in. And I know in like my program and even when I'm like looking at IEPs and things like that, and because I, I think I said that I have to do some IEP counseling, I mean, I don't do much.

I have like a handful, like a handful of kids and that's it. But we are always asking the question, like, does their emotional needs affect their academic performance? And so we are so focused on that academic.

Even if it's like an emotional. We're working on like their emotional regulation or their self confidence or whatever, it's to drive that academic performance.

And do you think for social workers it's always the same, or do you go and veer a little bit more into all like the background and the history and the family and the other lens other than just pure like how do we drive the academics?

Cayce: Yeah. So I would say coming from that social work perspective, I always teach my students at the collegiate level that we are a guest. This is a secondary setting for us.

So in social work we can work in many different settings. The same might not be said for a school counselor. They specialize in school counseling. So with a master's degree in social work, we can work in many different areas.

So it's not just primary specific to a school. So our focus or our mission isn't typically on academic success. Now, hopefully school social workers that do keep this in mind and they do incorporate this into the services that they Provide.

But we typically take and adopt a more whole person, whole child approach and looking at like their social developmental history to really understand the systems at play that impact that child in front of us.

So what is the f. What are the family dynamics like? Do they meet their developmental milestones?

What resources do they have access to or what resources are they needing that they don't have that might be impeding on their functioning or their school performance? We look at it from a systems perspective to really better understand the person in front of us and how we can better support them.

I think another unique thing that I really appreciate with school social work is that we collaborate with families a whole lot. And I recognize.

Well, I appreciate that school counselors do that as well, because I think that this helps us provide better services, make more progress. So it's not uncommon for me to conduct multiple home visits, to have multiple one on one meetings with parents in my office, even ongoing, because it's hard for me to provide meaningful change or to promote meaningful change or to see meaningful change with a child when we don't have the parents on board.

Again, from that clinical perspective, I have to be. I have to have ongoing communication and a healthy, strong relationship with the parents or the caregivers to make sure that what we're learning in session or what we're practicing, the skills or whatever it may be is also being modeled and practiced at home.

Carol: And I, I just love that. I really wish as a school counselor that I had more time for that. I just don't. So I really appreciate the fact that from your lens and from what your role is, that you do get to dive deep into that and really support the whole child.

Because let's face it, it is more than the academic piece and what they need to be successful in school, because we want them to be successful in school. But they need all these things, right?

That's important.

Cayce: And I found that having that, that strong parental relationship also in return supports the teacher because they know that we have that frequent line of communication with the parent. So sometimes as teachers may be struggling to get a hold of a parent or to have a parent who, to get them engaged or whatever the case may be, they will reach out to me and they'll say, hey, Dr.

Batts, I know that you have a good relationship with so and so's mom or so and so's grandmother. What do you recommend? I can't get ahold of them. And, and I can say, oh, well, I know that that grandmother works night shift and she works Monday, Tuesdays and Wednesdays.

So maybe you could try reaching out on this day. It really just helps strengthen the involvement and communication between classroom teachers and the caregivers as well.

Carol: So I think the one thing that I want to point out to all our viewers is that one of the big differences too, I think, between the two roles is the intensity at which I think social workers work with families.

Right. The need for having, I think even a smaller caseload is so important for you to establish those relationships and to put the time in that you need to really make a difference in the kids that you're serving.

And I think one thing that we don't talk about a whole lot is ratios. Right? We're always focused on ratios, but we don't look at the overall ratios for mental health and what a school should have.

Right? Because if really, if we're looking at recommended ratios and we're looking at a mental health team, we should have, for every 500 students, we should have one whole school psychologist.

Not like a partial that so many schools have, but a whole one. We should have two social workers and we should have two school counselors. And it's not an and or it's we need them all.

And unfortunately, I don't think I know of one single school that meets those ratios.

Cayce: Yeah, likewise, I don't either.

Carol: But. And then people wonder, why is mental health failing in our country? Or why are our kids having so many behavioral problems and challenges? And it's because we don't have the right people listening to these kinds of conversations saying, hey, well, you're kind of lacking in what you're offering here and you need more of this stuff.

Cayce: Yeah, absolutely. And something that you said, it made me think of the students that I have at the collegiate level who will do school social work internships with me. They often comment on how the caseload for a school social worker does seem to be smaller.

So that can be a complaint sometimes. Like, I feel like my impact isn't as.

Carol: Isn't as broad reached, maybe. Isn't as.

Cayce: Yeah, isn't as broad reached because the school counselor sees so many more. They see so many more faces in a day because they may be providing classroom lessons or they may be in the specials rotation or.

Or whatever that looks in each school. That can be. Another difference is that people need to consider when choosing when going between, or deciding between school social work or school counseling, because there are.

They are similar. And I answer. I answer questions like that all the time. What's the difference? And why should I choose one over the Other. And it really depends on what works best for you and what you're looking for.

Carol: Yep. It reminds me this of like, a little saying that somebody told me once. It has really nothing to do with social work or school counseling, but it's kind of rings to the what you were just saying about that smaller key size and not having as many kids or impacting as many kids.

And this has to do with friendship. But one of my friends told me a long time ago that friends are the few that you can hold in your hand. And acquaintances, they come in hundreds or dozens, maybe even thousands if you're lucky.

But yeah, friends are the few that you can hold in your hand. And I think that rings true for, like, we could tweak up the words a little bit. And for social workers, it's not how many friends you have.

Right. Or acquaintances that you have. It's the friends. It's the few that you have in your hand. It's the ones that you're working most closely together with. Those are the ones that you're really trying to make a difference with.

Cayce: Yeah. And the impact that you can make. Absolutely.

Carol: Yeah. We don't want to spread ourselves too thin. We want to make that positive impact.

Cayce: Sure. Yeah.

Carol: So. All right. I have another question for you because we've talked about a whole lot, but I think in terms of working with, like a school counselor, how do you think you kind of keep the boundaries between what a school counselor does versus what a social worker does?

I know that's a loaded question.

How would you answer that?

Cayce: I think that it takes self awareness, first of all, to know what are my strengths, whether it fits into that typical mold of what a school social worker should be or is or what a school counselor should be or is, knowing my strengths and what I can offer and working alongside the school counselor in the school building or district for them to say the same thing, hey, these are my strengths, and this is where I feel like I'm most effective and where my time is best speed bent.

And then collaboratively working together so that we can delegate and we can make the most change, make the biggest difference possible, knowing our skill sets, what we have to offer.

Carol: Right, Exactly. I have known social workers, too, like buildings that had, like, a social worker and a school counselor, where the social worker was doing the majority of the SEL lessons, believe it or not, versus the school counselor and the counselor was picking up some of the, like the whole school programming and doing more of the, like, I want to say, like your traditional counseling, only because they realized that that was what they.

When they got into the heart of it every single day, that's what they really enjoyed the most and felt like they were having these shining star moments doing. So I think sometimes the roles get a little blurred, but I think you have to be open to having a good communication and a good partnership, because I think that's what it is, is a partnership.

Cayce: Absolutely. Yeah. The school counselor and school social worker should always work together, never against each other. And I think another thing to answer your question that I think of is competence in the social work field.

Our code of ethics values competence. Looking at what am I qualified to do and what do I feel comfortable doing? I can't tell you how many times. Just because I am a licensed therapist doesn't mean that I feel comfortable treating anything and everything and how many times that I've made referrals out because I'm not the best fit for a person and their needs.

I think just really staying true to that as well. Knowing what we feel comfort, knowing what we're qualified and prepared to treat.

Carol: Yeah, and I totally agree with that, too, because that just reminds me of when I was working with a social worker. One thing that I picked up a lot with and that I've worked with a lot was with students that had selective mutism because I went through a lot of trainings, and it was just something that I ended up having more experience with than I wanted to because of all the trainings and things that I had to do from before.

We had a social worker, and our social worker was like, oh, good, I'm glad that you can deal with that, because I don't really know anything at all. I haven't been trained, and I haven't gone through all the things.

And she was really good with working with students that were homeless, and that seemed to be, like, a specialty that she became fantastic at. So we had those little, like, niches that we found, like, oh, well, if you have an sm, you're going to be working with Carol, you're.

Or you're going to work over here if you're maybe classified as homeless, so.

Cayce: Exactly. Yeah. And I would agree with that, school social worker. I, too, do not know too much about selective mutism, so that's interesting.

Carol: So, yeah, so I think we do have, like, those little specialties, and I think the more experience we have in the field, we kind of gain certain competencies.

Cayce: True. That's a great. Yeah.

Carol: It's like you have these lived experiences, and as you live them, you're gaining more Experience. Sometimes it's just because we have more life, right. We do more things, we interact with more people.

We have encountered different situations. Part of that is just as we grow, we learn.

Cayce: Absolutely.

Carol: All right, how about this? What advice? Yeah, what advice would you give to school counselors? School counselors who are, like, struggling right now. They're like, I don't know how to work best with my.

My social worker. This is a brand new thing. We're not really, like, bonding really. Well, what do I do? How do I, like, make this work?

Cayce: Oh, that's a good one.

I think it's hard to give an answer that's gonna fit for every single person. I think first you have to be willing to have those conversations, and it doesn't have to be a tough conversation.

It doesn't have to feel confrontational, but just having, like, a brainstorming time to say, hey, again, what are your strengths? What do you. What would you enjoy doing at the end of the day?

How would you like to look? What would you like to look back on and say that you did throughout the day? Is that running small groups? Is that individual sessions?

Is that working with community partners to find resources for the students? What. What is your interest? And then coming together to see how that can be delegated and divided up so that you guys can work effectively and efficiently together?

Carol: Yeah, I would agree. I think having those conversations is probably key and maybe even forget the title for a few minutes, right. And just sit down with the person, as a person, and discuss what the goals are.

Because really, we all have. I think in this field, we have similar goals. We have similar things that we want to accomplish. Right. We want to work with kids, and we want to do our best work for.

For the kids. But we have to have the conversations to how do we best do that? What are we bringing to the table? And how can we capitalize on our expertise?

And how do we say, all right, this is what I can do, and this is what you can do?

Cayce: Yeah, that's a good point. And it makes me think of conducting a needs assessment as well. That's something that we've done in the past to figure out what needs even exist before we start deciding what we're going to do.

What do. What do our students, the ones that we're serving, what do they need? Conducting needs assessment, administering it to staff and admin to determine where the biggest issues occur or what that may be.

Are there certain topics? Is it peer relationships or is it bullying concerns, or is it emotional regulation?

And then using that as a tool to guide the service delivery and to say, hey, I'll. I'll take this. If you can take this. Working together to kind of figure out each person's roles and responsibilities, not that it has to be something that's definitive and doesn't ever change, but that we can also be flexible and adapt on the go.

Because as a school counselor and as I know as a school social worker, no two days are ever the same, and it's going to change and we're going to have a plan, and the plan is going to be tossed to the wayside because something is going to come up.

Carol: Exactly. I also think that having, like, regular meetings set up are essential, too, because I think the more that you can talk about it and meet together, the more you're really going to be enforcing those expectations and those highlights and what you're bringing to the table.

But also, I think it's important to celebrate your little victories together as well, because if you are never sharing, like, hey, oh, my gosh, this is what happened today. I can't believe it.

Like, it was the highlight of my day. I think if you don't share those moments, you also get derailed a lot of times from the main focus of what you're trying to do.

And that is really obviously to help kids to be in their corner, to advocate for them, to bring the best of yourself for what they need. And so you have to be able to share the losses and the wins together and kind of come together.

Cayce: Absolutely. And to encourage one another.

Carol: And one last question for you. Are you ready? Let's hear. Okay, so what is one thing that you wish more school counselors really understood about the role of the school social worker?

Cayce: I think that something that is unique to school social work, and I touched on this at the beginning, is that systems perspective and that systems approach that we adopt. So we look at the whole child and all of the factors, the biological, the psychological, the social factors that may be impacting the person.

So we're not just looking at the fact that Johnny is out of his chair for the 10th time and the teachers asked him to sit down, but we're taking a step back and looking at the family dynamics again and other factors that might be impacting the child and looking at the resources that we can get to support them, making referrals when needed, working with community organizations, whether that's for transportation or housing or whatever the case may be, so that we can meet those basic needs before we start addressing some of the classroom concerns.

Again, not that the Classroom concerns aren't our priority. They are. But we just kind of take a step back and start addressing some of the other concerns first before we expect to see a change happen within the four walls of a classroom.

Carol: Love it. Love it. And I'm going to try to answer it in reverse. Like, what is one thing that I wish social workers understood more about the school counselors? And we're kind of territorial.

And I have to honestly say that I think we have to stop kind of being territorial because it's not about us and we can't get our feelings hurt all the time.

Right. And I. I'm going to be completely honest and raw here. Like, it used to drive me crazy when I would see posts or people saying that they were social workers and they had the job of a school counselor.

Their title was school counselor, but they didn't have the degree and they didn't have the certification.

And as a school counselor, that's a hard pill to swallow because we work really hard for our degrees, just like you guys work really hard for your degrees. And I just wish.

But that's no fault of either party, right? That's the fault of the system that we have to work for. I just wish that we could come together and put a class together for administrators that just said, hey, this is what's needed and this is the roles and help other people understand why they're a little different and why it's not an and or, and why it's a both and why we're just awesome together.

Like, we're better together, not doing our own separate things because we have to get past those little like.

Like they're trying to steal my degree or they're trying to steal my job or they're taking this over or we have to move past that because it's not about that.

Because then we turn it into an us problem and not it's our. Our kids that need something.

Cayce: That's a really good point because school social work is. Is relatively new. It's kind of the hot. It's kind of the hot new thing in schools right now. It's not that it's new in general.

School social worker has been around for many, many years, but it's. It's become so much more common. We see so many more school. School social workers as a result of COVID which is a great thing.

And like you say school because school social work is new. We have a lot to learn from school counselors. You guys have been in the districts. You guys have been there, you know, the school system better your students better oftentimes than the school social worker does.

So it just goes to show how important it is. Again, just like you said, at best, Carol, we work together, not against each other, and we can really maximize our strengths and build upon that so that we can provide even better services.

I'm so glad that you have the degree of a school social, of a school counselor, just as I have the degree as a school social worker, because we each bring different components and strengths to the field to benefit our students.

Carol: Exactly. Exactly. I couldn't have said it better myself.

Cayce: Sure.

Carol: So I just hope that for the people that are listening to this right now, and that maybe you are struggling with your counterpart, whether it's a school counselor or a social worker or just that extra body that is now in your space trying to help you deliver better services to kids, that you just get rid of all the negative stuff that maybe you're carrying around with, like, I'm giving you permission.

Let it go, because you don't need it. Just let it go and say, wow, I have help. Because really, when we are struggling with these enormous caseloads, and let's face it, I already told you that we don't have the recommended ratios that we're.

A school is supposed to have. Like, be thankful for the help and be thankful that there's another person that you can share all these things with, because it's not about you.

It's about the kids.

Cayce: Go forth and conquer.

Carol: Yay.

All right, so thank you, because I think this was really great, and I hope our listeners learned a lot. And because I know I did, I was like, oh, wow.

Like, my head is just, like, swirling with all this stuff. And I have a mentor meeting tomorrow with. I have a mentee in my district, so a new school counselor that, yeah, they allow me to mentor her.

So we're going to talk about all kinds of stuff, and we're going to talk about this. I can't wait. But in the meantime, before I let you go, I thought it would be really fun if you could answer just a few wacky questions.

Cayce: Okay, let's give it a go.

Carol: All right. Do you consider ramen noodles a soup or something different?

Cayce: What made you think of this question?

Carol: I don't know. I'm starving right now, and my kid was eating ramen.

Cayce: I've never given it thought. I would say ramen is a pasta.

Carol: Okay. So not a soup.

Cayce: Not a soup.

Carol: Okay. Only because it's sold in the soup aisle.

Cayce: I've never paid attention.

Carol: Look, next Time you'll see it with the soups.

Cayce: You're putting too much thought into ramen.

Carol: Well, I also ask the question a lot to my kids. Like, is a hot dog a sandwich?

Cayce: No, it's not.

Carol: See, I don't think so either, but the kids are like, it's between two slices of bread, and it's a sandwich, just like a sub. And I'm like, I don't agree with that.

So I don't know.

Cayce: I think this is the hardest I've thought all day.

I don't think it's a. It's a sandwich because the bread's not on top and bottom, and that's what makes a sandwich.

Carol: There you go. All right. Just the little things that make you.

Cayce: Say, hmm, you aren't wrong.

Carol: All right. And one last question. Are you binge watching anything on TV right now?

Cayce: I am not. Fun fact. I don't watch tv.

Carol: Oh. Can we be friends? I don't know.

Cayce: I have not watched a TV show in probably three to four years, so I am the knot on the log that spends all her time outdoors. I not binge watching anything right now.

Carol: Okay. Actually, my husband is very much the same way. He doesn't really watch anything. He will sit. I don't watch TV all that often, but when I do, like, I do tend to binge watch things.

And, like, I have a long night tonight. I also have some other, like, meetings to attend and things. And so when I'm done, I plan to relax by watching, like, Love is Blind.

Because it's, like, so not reality that I just. I have to laugh when I watch it.

And my husband will not allow me to watch it in our when he's there.

But he will sit down and watch TV with me. But he's not really watching tv. He's, like, on the iPad, playing a game or reading the news.

Cayce: Or it's just background noise.

Carol: Exactly.

Cayce: Yes.

Carol: Anyway, this was great. I really loved our conversation. Thank you so much for coming on. And to our friends that are listening, thank you. You guys are doing an awesome job.

Remember, what you do matters, and you are making a difference every single day that you show up for work. Keep on doing it. And remember, until next time. I hope you have a great week.

Bye for now.

Cayce: Bye.

Carol: Thanks for listening to today's episode of Counselor Chat. All of the links I talked about can be found in the show notes and at counselingessentials.org/podcast. Be sure to hit follow or subscribe on your favorite podcast player. And if you would be so kind to leave a review. I'd really appreciate it. Want to connect?

Send me a DM on Facebook or Instagram at Counseling Essentials until next time. Can't wait till we chat. Bye for now.

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