In this episode, we delve into the success story of ZenMaid, a Vertical SaaS company, with CEO Amar Ghose joining us to share insights.

Here are the talking points,

• Amar explains how ZenMaid simplifies scheduling for residential cleaning businesses worldwide, highlighting the critical role of efficient scheduling in the cleaning industry.
• Discover ZenMaid's customer base, primarily consisting of small to medium-sized residential cleaning businesses paying around $100 per month, totaling approximately 2,000 paying customers and $2.5 million in annual revenue.
• Learn about ZenMaid's impressive growth rate of 25 to 30 percent over the past 12 months.
• Explore ZenMaid's diverse marketing strategies, including organic traffic, SEO, a thriving Facebook community, and industry partnerships.
• Understand the significance of ZenMaid's Facebook groups in fostering engagement, gathering feedback, and generating content ideas.
• Gain insights into ZenMaid's SEO strategy, centered around content creation, particularly through the annual Maid Summit.
• Discover ZenMaid's approach to industry partnerships and the mutual benefits derived from collaborations within the cleaning industry.
• Learn about ZenMaid's customer acquisition funnel, involving retargeting, email marketing, and personalized onboarding.
• Understand ZenMaid's churn metrics, with customer churn under 5 percent and revenue churn around 2 percent per month.
• Explore ZenMaid's journey from inception, starting with cold outreach to acquire the first 100 customers, followed by inbound growth fueled by SEO and industry partnerships.
• Hear about Amar's commitment to ZenMaid's long-term vision, prioritizing independence and organic growth over external funding, despite offers for investment.

Hello everyone.

2

Welcome to the B2B SaaS podcast.

3

I'm your host Upendra Varma.

4

Today we have Amar Ghosh with us.

5

Amar here is the CEO of

a company called ZenMaid.

6

Hey Amar, welcome to the show.

7

Amar Ghose: Hey, thanks for having me.

8

Excited to be here.

9

Upendra: All right, Amar.

10

So let's try to understand, right?

11

What ZenMaid does, right?

12

And why customers are

willing to pay your money.

13

Amar Ghose: Uh, yeah.

14

So, uh, essentially everyone I watching

this, I assume is going to be familiar

15

with a maid service or a cleaning company.

16

Um, those companies have like across

the world have one thing in common.

17

They have to know where

they have to be and when.

18

Um, who's going to go there and what

are the details like of the appointment?

19

Um, that's even more important than

being good at cleaning, because if you

20

don't show up where you're expected

to be, then, uh, you know, nothing

21

actually happens in the business.

22

So ZenMaid is essentially a better

alternative to what previously was

23

a whiteboard or Google calendar,

or just a pen and paper diary, but

24

it's We essentially take all of

that basic information and put it

25

on steroids for cleaning companies

around the world to, uh, to use.

26

So all automations around the schedule

27

Upendra: Talk a bit about these

cleaning companies, right?

28

So how do they look like?

29

So like, what does a

cleaning company look like?

30

So how many, like, just give us a sense

of your, you know, customer, right?

31

Before we get

32

Amar Ghose: is, it tends to be much, much

smaller than we work with residential

33

cleaning companies specifically,

like very specifically, we don't work

34

with, um, with commercial cleaners,

post construction, you know, window

35

washers, none of, none of that stuff,

just like in your house, like cleaners.

36

So it tends to be almost like mom and pop.

37

Type businesses where, um, I

think our average customer has,

38

I believe five cleaners, maybe

a little, a little bit more.

39

I think six cleaners is now the,

um, the average in ZenMaid and

40

it, it ranges up to like maybe 40.

41

I think one customer has like, has like

80, but it's a, it's a pretty small, like

42

it's a very, very like SMB, um, that,

yeah, the average customer is paying us

43

just under a hundred dollars a month,

44

Upendra: okay.

45

And, and how many paying customers

are we talking about today that

46

you're serving on your platform?

47

Amar Ghose: a couple of

thousand low, low thousands

48

Upendra: It's around

49

Amar Ghose: around there.

50

Yeah.

51

Okay.

52

Upendra: All right.

53

Uh, that makes a lot of sense.

54

So like, what's the total revenue

you're doing as a company today?

55

And approximate approximate

numbers totally work.

56

Amar Ghose: we're at approximately 2.

57

5 million, uh, per, um, or 2, 2.

58

5 million annually right now.

59

Yeah.

60

Upendra: All right.

61

Uh, and also want to get a sense

of how you're growing, right?

62

So over the past 12 months, right?

63

So where were you in terms of revenue

approximately 12 months before today?

64

Amar Ghose: Um, I think

we were, I, I don't know.

65

That's kind of a, that's

kind of a tough one.

66

I, I mean, I think right now,

like we're, we're at like, like

67

just under 200,000 in annual or

in, in monthly recurring revenue.

68

And we were at about 150,000 in,

in monthly recurring revenue.

69

So yeah, about like 25 to 30%

growth over the past 12 months.

70

Upendra: All right.

71

So, so, and when did you

start the company as such?

72

So when was that first customer

that was, that paid you?

73

Amar Ghose: Uh, we started 11 years ago.

74

Upendra: Okay.

75

Uh, so, and that's, that's,

uh, that's a long time, right?

76

So there's, there's a lot of

things that, that must have

77

happened in the background, right?

78

So I want to capture this, you know,

in a step by step fashion, right?

79

First, I want to understand what's

happening over the past 12 months, right?

80

So this 20 to 30 percent growth

that you're getting, right?

81

So where are your customers primarily

discovering you in terms of, you know,

82

top of an early generation perspective?

83

Yeah.

84

Amar Ghose: Uh, they, we, we have like

a big community on, um, on Facebook.

85

We have a lot of organic and like SEO

traffic that is, um, that's coming to us.

86

Uh, we've run some paid ads, although

those have mainly been shut off in the

87

past year, but we're about to kind of like

bring those, um, bring those like back.

88

A lot of like industry

partnerships and stuff.

89

I mean, we've just, we've been doing

all of this for, for a long time.

90

So, um, you know, over the years

we've built up a lot of marketing

91

assets and quite a few, uh, quite

a few distribution channels.

92

Upendra: Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.

93

Right.

94

And I still want to get a sense of,

you know, your engine today, right.

95

I understand you've got

a lot of channels, right.

96

And obviously you need to have

those at this stage of your company.

97

Right.

98

So, but which of them do you believe it?

99

At this point of time, right?

100

It's sort of contributing a lot.

101

So can you just put a number, can you

just help us understand, you know,

102

give some ratio of what's working, how,

and all of those things across these

103

channels, or is it very hard to answer?

104

Amar Ghose: Honestly, not really

because marketing attribution

105

and tracking is just total crap.

106

It's a, it's a problem that no one

has been able to properly like solve.

107

And I, I also don't believe that there's

any one channel that actually does that.

108

I very much believe in the whole,

uh, Um, that, that someone has

109

to see your brand seven times

before they like actually sign up.

110

So, I mean, I would say that our Facebook

group helps a lot with a lot of people

111

signing up, but very, very few people come

to the Facebook group, discover us, and

112

then sign up directly like through that.

113

So I think it's all like

inter, interrelated.

114

I mean, If I had to pick one, it

would probably be SEO and organic.

115

Um, but, uh, beyond, beyond that,

I, yeah, I, I don't, I don't really,

116

um, really have a good answer there.

117

Upendra: So, so, so we'll, we'll, we'll

talk about these two, these two things.

118

So talk about this Facebook group

that you're talking about, right?

119

So what's your strategy there, right?

120

So do you use it primarily

as a lead nurturing channel?

121

Like what's, what's, what

happens in that community?

122

Amar Ghose: So we have

two Facebook groups.

123

One is for all of our users and that's

for them to, you know, to, to chat.

124

Um, actually not too

much about the software.

125

Where we tend to not let them ask

questions about the software in there,

126

uh, because, you know, they, they should

be going to like to support for that,

127

but it gives them a bit of a smaller,

tighter knit community to, um, to

128

get to know people and all of that.

129

And then our bigger Facebook

group is for all, uh, maid

130

service owners and, um, and, um.

131

You're just like anywhere, right?

132

It doesn't matter what software they

use, if their customers like, et cetera.

133

And so with that, I mean, we started

that group, I think eight years ago

134

at this point, so it really just kind

of runs on its own at this point.

135

Like we probably aren't using it

anywhere near as much as we potentially

136

like, as we potentially could.

137

Um, it's just a great place for like our.

138

Ideal audience and our potential users

to hang out online to ask questions.

139

So we do get like content ideas from there

And we'll occasionally post about you

140

know product updates and stuff like that.

141

But again, it's not it's it's not hugely.

142

Um Intentional at the moment.

143

It was back in the day back in the day

It's like I was personally on there every

144

single day answering as many questions

as I could Going live on facebook for

145

like multiple hours a day was like a

very like gary v style Um approach but

146

now it kind of runs a bit more like

on its own with like with minimal So

147

it introduces people to our brand and,

um, you know, helps out with, with a

148

couple of a couple of other things.

149

And then the user group is great

for like for feedback on the

150

product and stuff like that.

151

Upendra: And, and how big of, how big

of a group are we talking about here?

152

How many members in that community?

153

Amar Ghose: Uh, the bigger community

has, I believe 8, 000, um, 8,

154

000 like made service owners.

155

Upendra: And then just talk

about your SEO strategy today.

156

Right?

157

So what, what are you doing?

158

Right?

159

So is it landing pages?

160

Is it logs or is it everything?

161

Right.

162

So, so do you have any strategy going on

here, especially in your particular niche?

163

Amar Ghose: It's mainly it's mainly blogs.

164

Uh, so so we have is every year we do the

maid summit, which is a virtual summit for

165

maid services, uh, like around the world.

166

And that gets a couple thousand like

online attendees, um, every single year.

167

And we bring on Anywhere between like 40

and maybe as high as 60 folks to speak,

168

uh, some of those are our customers.

169

Others of them are coaches or

consultants or agency owners.

170

Uh, but the one thing they all

have in common is they all work.

171

Specifically with made services, right?

172

We don't take random accountants.

173

That's like, I work with small businesses.

174

That's not good enough.

175

They have to be ultra specialized

to working with made services.

176

And so what we do with that is

that gives us 40 to 60, um, pieces

177

of video content that are then

published to our YouTube channel.

178

And over the years, we've had, um,

we've had like a very talented writer

179

on our team who Who has gone through

and has turned each of those videos into

180

standalone, um, standalone articles.

181

Sometimes it's the entire talk.

182

Sometimes it's like one section of

the talk that makes a really good

183

800 or 1200 word article or whatever.

184

And so over the years, I think

the last time I checked, we had.

185

I don't know, 800 pages or something

like that on our, on our blog.

186

Um, and then other than that, it's

really just publishing consistently

187

being in business for, for, you know,

11 years now, and just, I think being

188

recognized by Google as just like.

189

A quality source of information that like,

you know, we've never played any games

190

like done any, you know, like black hat

stuff or any, um, you know, questionable

191

backlinking or anything along those lines.

192

So every time there's a Google

update, it always seems to help us.

193

Like, I can't remember the last

time there was a Google update

194

that actually negatively impacted

195

Upendra: And then how much of,

yeah, that makes a lot of sense.

196

How much of a monthly traffic

are we talking about in terms

197

of, you know, overall inbound,

198

Amar Ghose: I honestly, I, I

don't, I don't know, um, like

199

low, low five figures a month.

200

I think, I think maybe three to

4, 000 like a week on the blog,

201

but honestly, I don't know.

202

Upendra: got it.

203

Yeah.

204

And let, let's move on to your

industry partnerships, right?

205

I mean, like, so how have you built or,

you know, developed these relationships

206

over years to just talk about.

207

What happened over the time, right?

208

And what sort of partnerships

are we talking about, right?

209

And you know, what's, what's,

what's happening around this.

210

Amar Ghose: Yeah.

211

So with, with that, I think that

that was definitely playing to my

212

personal strengths when we were getting

the, um, the business like off the

213

ground that I went to a lot of live

events and met people in person.

214

And really just offered to

kind of to, to be helpful.

215

Uh, I think that if you're a SAS founder

and you are good with just like web

216

development, even like WordPress and

stuff like that, I essentially, you know,

217

let multiple consultants in the industry

know once I've sort of gotten in contact.

218

That I would let them know, like, Hey,

you know, um, technology is our thing.

219

Like, it's not like, it's not your thing.

220

So if you're having any challenges

that you need, website edits that

221

you need, like these sorts of things,

you always have a direct line to me.

222

You're thinking about

building your own app.

223

You can drop me a line and I'll spend an

hour talking to you about the challenges

224

you might go through and just sort

of like offering up time like that.

225

Uh, I remember that for one of the

consultants, she messaged me with some

226

problem that I looked at and I was

like, I have no idea how to solve this.

227

I ended up going on Upwork and

paying 200 to someone to come

228

in and to solve her problem.

229

She might find out about this if she

ever watches this interview, but like,

230

she never knew that we actually went

through and like, and, and did that.

231

Um, and then also we've always taken

the, uh, you know, a rising tide

232

raises all ships kind of approach.

233

So the maid summit, for example, it's

like every consultant in the industry

234

wants to be on like good terms with

Zenmaid because if they're not, they're

235

not going to get invited to this thing.

236

And that's something that, you know,

We've seen people that have literally

237

launched entirely new businesses off

of talks from like, from that summit.

238

So there's a variety of ways, you know,

we try to feature them in other content,

239

doing Facebook lives and stuff like that.

240

Upendra: Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.

241

And talk about your bottom

of the funnel, right?

242

So once somebody discovers your

product, what happens, right?

243

How do you convert that, you know,

that'll lead to a paying customer, right?

244

Is it completely hands off?

245

Like what's happening today?

246

Or

247

Amar Ghose: So it's a lot, it's a

lot of, uh, of retargeting of like

248

Facebook, uh, Facebook retargeting and,

uh, and then using email marketing.

249

Once we've added them to the, uh, to

the email list to kind of nurture them.

250

Um, It's self service in terms of getting

them, uh, getting them to a trial.

251

Once they get on the trial, then

we have like kind of a sales team.

252

It's not like a strict like

sales team, the way that it is

253

like with other companies, like

they don't make commission.

254

It's more of like a customer success

team that does a bit more of the

255

onboarding and the handholding.

256

Like we offer unlimited calls to help

people get started, but you know, most

257

people don't take advantage of that.

258

If they do, they're not

usually a great fit.

259

Um, so yeah, that, that, that's

generally like how, how it goes.

260

But then also the, the Facebook group

is really massive for that, right?

261

That the Facebook group doesn't probably

get us that much new traffic, but

262

anyone that joins our email list and

then jumps into our Facebook group,

263

it might take two years for them to

look at our software, but they're

264

never going to forget our brand name.

265

And that that's kind of the point.

266

Upendra: so do you get on

any sales calls as such?

267

Do you have any touch points where

your sales person goes and talks to

268

these customers, does that happen ever?

269

Amar Ghose: All right.

270

Well, dude, that's like

the customer success.

271

So, so that that's after that's after

they've signed up for the trial.

272

Not before.

273

Um, we only make exceptions if it's

like a franchise or somebody that's

274

like really big, but if someone has

like three cleaners and they're like,

275

we need to talk to you before we

sign up for a trial, the answer's no.

276

Upendra: So, but that's still

not your customer, right?

277

Somebody signing up for trial is

still your potential lead, right?

278

That you'll still have to

279

Amar Ghose: Yeah.

280

Yeah, definitely

281

Upendra: My question is like,

can you afford to have a sales

282

team at this price point?

283

There's a 2, 000 deal, right?

284

Amar Ghose: not a, not a real

sales team, not a real sales team.

285

If I had to pay people commissions,

we, we would not be able to make

286

the unit economics, um, work.

287

And I, I did sales in like

in a previous previous life.

288

So like, I'm, um, I'm quite,

quite familiar with that,

289

that, yeah, we, we don't,

290

Upendra: it's more like enabling

ER, you know, customers to move from

291

that trial to pay journey, right?

292

Somehow in some automations

or whatever you can do.

293

Amar Ghose: Yeah, much more

handholding and like on board.

294

And like I said, it's, it's more

customer success than it is sales.

295

Upendra: So how does it

show and look like today?

296

Right?

297

Because I mean, at this price point, you

typically expect a lot of shown, right?

298

So what, what's, how does

that number look like?

299

Amar Ghose: Um, I think like a

customer churn is somewhere like

300

just under 5 percent a month.

301

And then revenue churn is closer

to like 2 percent a month.

302

So it's, you know, I wish it

was, I wish it was better.

303

I hear about, you know, bigger

softwares that have just insane,

304

like churn numbers and everything.

305

And, you know, you, you have to take

like the good with the bad, right.

306

A lot of those companies, you have

a nine month sales cycle, right.

307

It's, you know, we sign people up

a lot without even talking to them.

308

So, um, you know, yeah, I don't

really compare myself to other, um,

309

other companies too much or other

industries too much, just because it's,

310

it's so, it's so specific and like,

it just, it doesn't matter, right.

311

It doesn't change.

312

Upendra: what's that

primary reason, right?

313

For these turned out customers, is

it because they are, they themselves

314

are shutting down their business or

what's happening in this case, right?

315

I mean, I'm understanding almost 60

percent of your customers sort of,

316

you know, go away in a year or so.

317

Right.

318

So what's happening to these customers

typically from your own analysis?

319

Amar Ghose: It's a

variety of like of things.

320

I mean, uh, yeah, I don't know.

321

Some, some go out of business.

322

Um, you know, I mean, I think, I think

what one thing is like when you look at

323

that 5 percent number, if you were to

remove customers that have been with us

324

for longer than 90 days, So that have

made like their third payment to us.

325

Then that churn number

drops massively, right?

326

Like you'd like, you know, probably

in like the 3 percent or like 2

327

percent like range, like range there.

328

So like the other thing is that a

lot of churn are people that were

329

never truly using the software.

330

They were evaluating it and 14

days wasn't enough for, for them.

331

Right.

332

So, um, yeah, it's, it's a

variety of things, but yeah.

333

Upendra: So I'm going to talk about

that zero to one journey, right?

334

So how did it all start?

335

Right.

336

So where did you, like, how did you

decide, okay, I'm going to build a

337

service for me cleaning industry, right?

338

How did it all start and how

did you get that first customer?

339

Amar Ghose: To just keep it,

keep it brief, uh, I ran a maid

340

service previously, and then a

friend of mine, because I'm, I'm

341

the non technical like founder.

342

Um, and so a friend of mine approached

me and essentially was like, Hey,

343

I see that you guys have built out

like, you know, Your own little

344

scheduling, just using the website.

345

I think that we can turn that into a

SAS and offer it to other maid services.

346

And so that's how we actually

started the company back in the day.

347

And then we got our first customers

with just cold email and cold calling.

348

Um, our first, first hundred customers

came from cold email and cold calling.

349

And at some point along the way there,

we got lucky with a partnership that

350

helped us to go from like there to maybe.

351

Maybe 150 or something and then

sometime between 100 and 150 clients

352

was when our, um, our inbound

began to, uh, began to build up.

353

That's when, you know, we were getting

to see a couple more folks finding us

354

like on, on Google and we'd written a

couple of articles and all that stuff.

355

So that's how we started.

356

Upendra: And then what have you raised

in external funding so far to build

357

your company over the past 10 years?

358

So, so is it completely bootstrap and you

co founders own the complete business?

359

Is that how it is today?

360

So,

361

Amar Ghose: four, four owners now

that were that one of my, my, my,

362

my initial co founder left in 2017.

363

So our current CTO has got a

significant chunk of the business.

364

And then one of the guys who was

365

to like, to build up the company.

366

Um, like it used to just be me,

him and the initial co founder.

367

He's got a, he's got a small

amount of equity as well.

368

Upendra: so what's the

long term vision here?

369

Am I right?

370

So what are you doing?

371

What are you planning

to do with this company?

372

Are you going to sort of sell it

off to somebody or what's, what's

373

the vision here now that you have

complete control over the company?

374

Amar Ghose: Um, I'm planning on

like, I don't, I don't think that

375

I'm likely to sell, to sell the

business, but we'll have to see.

376

It's like a, you never say never kind

of thing that it's just, it's one of

377

the industries that's like the least

disruptible in like, in, in the world.

378

It's just, you know, people are

always going to pay other people

379

to like, to clean their homes.

380

Um, so I don't think there's, there's

that much like risk in terms of, in

381

terms of that, um, Uh, I think that the

best companies are always built to sell.

382

So like the idea is that I'm, I'm building

it, uh, so, so that like, it's possible to

383

sell it, but the way that I see it is that

if I move on from Zen made, I'm likely

384

going to focus on, um, on like another SAS

product and potentially in the future have

385

like a portfolio of like SAS companies.

386

And so to me, it's like,

why, why sell the first one?

387

If that's the one that's like,

that's working, you know, it's.

388

Fits off like a nice, nice,

nice bit of like, of, of cash.

389

We've done all of like the hard work,

like hard work now, so, um, yeah.

390

We'll, we'll see.

391

I think it, it is more likely

that I'm gonna hire someone to

392

replace me as CEO at some point.

393

Upendra: And you don't plan on to raise

some sort of external VC funding and,

394

you know, you know, pump up the growth

by doing all of that things, right?

395

You

396

Amar Ghose: Oh, no reason.

397

Upendra: And why, and why not?

398

Why are you such, why do you

have such a strong opinion?

399

Amar Ghose: because people that

have investors generally essentially

400

have bosses and have people

that they're working for, right?

401

Like, it's 1.

402

30 in the afternoon right now and, you

know, I'm just back from an appointment.

403

I went to the gym like this morning

and like, I'm essentially responsible

404

for getting the results, but how I

spend my time is nobody's business

405

but my own, and I'm not going to

put that at, at, at risk, right?

406

Like, yeah, so, so that, that, that's

essentially it, like, yeah, we, we've

407

had a couple of offers from people

that are like, oh, like, you know.

408

You know, if you take this money, you

could just go hang out at the beach.

409

And I'm just like, I'm

already at the beach.

410

I don't, I don't need to, to sell, to

sell the business or to grow the business.

411

Um, like I'm growing it more now as

like almost like a personal challenge.

412

And because I do want

to make a bigger impact.

413

For us to affect more made services.

414

I'd like to bring on better people

onto the team and pay my current team,

415

like more than they're currently paid.

416

And like, and all of like all of that

stuff, but there is zero chance that

417

I will, that I will take investment

for this, for, for this company.

418

Um, you, you can, you can

mark my words on that one.

419

Upendra: Thanks so much.

420

Thanks for taking the time to talk to me.

421

Hope your skills send me to

much, much greater heights.

422

Amar Ghose: thanks for having