This week on “Liberty Action Alert with Greg Seltz,” join Dr. Seltz and his guest, Vincent Wagner, Senior Counsel with the Center for Parental Rights at Alliance Defending Freedom where he safeguards parents’ rights to direct the upbringing, education, and care of their children, talking the D.F. v. Harrisonburg City Public School Board case, where the school board has implemented policy to lie to parents about gender transition issues with their children at school. Listen in for the political, the cultural, the moral, and the faith perspective on this vital topic for your children and family. See how, in this regard, we can be “Good, useful” citizens in God’s hands in service to the God’s preserving and saving work for all. And be challenged along with us as we continue to grow in the  wisdom needed to be 2 Kingdom citizens for the country we love. Join us!

The following program is sponsored by evangelical life ministries.

Welcome to Liberty action alert with Greg sells, sponsored by our friends at the Lutheran center for religious Liberty here in Washington, DC, a program that cuts through the chaos and confusion in the culture today by talking to kingdom, citizenship, bold biblical principles for a robust public Christian life. And now your host, Dr. Greg sells

Good day, good day, Washington,

DC and friends of the program all around the country. I'm Greg sells. Welcome to Liberty action alert. We are privileged to have on the program today. Vincent Wagner, who serves as senior council with the center for parental rights at Alliance defending freedom. Welcome Vincent.

Thanks for having me here, Greg. Glad to be here.

Listen, I, you know, what you, what, um, the center talks about doing it's main purpose, it's stated gold is to safeguard parents' rights to direct the upbringing, education and care of their children. So my first question to you is who would be against this?

Yeah. You know, like a lot of things like that, that the devil can be in the details. And so that's what we're finding in, in the cases we're having to bring is, you know, at a high level, I think everybody would say parents have that. Right. But it's a question of school sometimes saying, especially, you know, maybe not here.

Right. Well, okay. So in this case then you're, you're part of a case DF versus Harrisonburg city public schools take us through that case because this is one of those things where, uh, the school board is basically saying, you know, parents, uh, will make the decision, not you.

Yeah. And that's right. That's, that's the core issue here is the school board rather than doing what it should be doing, which is supporting parents and making these decisions for their children about, you know, education about their kids' identity, those sorts of things. The school board has a policy that is cutting parents out of those decisions. And so here in this case, it's about gender identity and sexuality where the school board has started implementing a policy that requires teachers. When they hear that a, when a student says that the student would like to be treated as the opposite sex, the teacher has to do two things. Number one, immediately start treating that student as the opposite sex. You know, the, the big thing is generally names and pronouns in that situation. Number two, the teacher's not allowed to tell that kid's parents about what's going on in the classroom now.

And it goes a step further than that. It actually requires teachers to continue using the student's given name and the student's correct pronouns. When speaking with that, student's parents, even though the teacher knows that at school, the students going by a name and pronouns to go with the opposite six. So the flashpoint is forcing teachers to participate in this, but it's forcing teachers to push parents out of the picture. So in this case, we represent a group of teachers and a group of parents. Some of, one of the parents is actually also a teacher in the school district. So it, it, it presents both sides of the issue here. You have teachers saying, you know, our free speech rights, our freedom of religion, we can't participate in this. And the cons, the Virginia constitution here says you can't make us do that. And the parents are saying, you know, as parents, we have a right to be involved and these important decisions about our kids lives and you can't cut us out of those

Decisions. So what age group are we talking about here?

Yeah. So this, this policy applies to the entire school system. Um, our teachers here are one of S uh, an elementary school teacher they're in middle school and high school. So, you know, it it's across the entire school system.

Well, and that's, I guess, uh, you know, I almost don't know what to say about this sometimes. And I think one of the reasons why we wanted to have you on, I know you're very busy and you're gonna have to go pretty quick here, but we wanted to have you on, because we wanted to let parents know, you know, this stuff is in the water. It's not, it's not just in this particular school district or that particular school district. It seems to be bubbling up all over the place. And my first question, if I was a parent would be, when did we flip from, uh, a school, had to call the parents to give, to administer an aspirin to my child, to now where we hear about they're taking kids oftentimes even to abortion clinics. And now we're even hearing that they're, they're not only, uh, participating in this gender transition, but they're willfully deceiving the parents, uh, about what's happening with their children. Was there a point in time where we just missed this or is this just something that now is, is kind of rolling downhill?

So, you know, folks again, when you vote, uh, this is the kind of stuff we've always said, vote platforms, not people because the platform and the platforms of Liberty are those that honor the parents' rights and responsibilities obviously. But education seems to be one of these areas, um, where not only is it getting murky, but since, you know, we saw, saw this in the pandemic where if the school board decided we're gonna shut down, we're shut down. It didn't matter what the parents thought didn't matter what the children thought didn't matter what the science was. And, and we were sitting there going, you know, can you see how this can become a dangerous situation where they have total control of your children? Um, well, you know, when you talk about this particular case, then what are the ramifications? I mean, you know, you're basically, you just said two things.

I think that are very important. Teachers don't want to do this too, because I would not want to willfully deceive a parent, especially if I thought that it was the wrong thing to do personally as well. And then obviously parents who say, Hey, that's my child. Are you gonna be there on Saturday night? Are you gonna be there on Sunday when they're crying and they're struggling? No, you're gonna be back home in the safeness of your house having, uh, set this upon my child. What are the ramifications a if we lose this case, um, and then I guess B, if you win this case,

You know, it really is, it it's about the stakes of kind of who gets to make these sorts of decisions for kids, because, you know, children are children. They need adults to help them make decisions and guide them through lives. So, you know, the adults and kids' lives are gonna be helping them make these sorts of decisions. So it's about who's the primary decision maker and, and the presumption has been and should be that its parents, especially when we're talking about something sensitive, like mental healthcare, like sexuality, you know, since some other cases, we've got cases about say, you know, race and racial identity, but parents should be making those sorts should be involved in those sorts of decisions in their kids' lives. And it shouldn't primarily be the schools. And in this case, it definitely shouldn't be the schools making the decision without even consulting the parents. So I think that's really what's at stake is whe who gets to make these decisions for kids and whether or not schools are allowed to cut parents out of these decisions.

And I think you sent a letter, uh, early on, uh, before I think the, before this became a case. And I think, and when I read in that particular letter, one of the things that you cited was a physician who talked about, listen, if you enable, especially pre-pubescent children in this, in these kinds of things, these things which tend to work themselves out after, after puberty, if you, if you enable that in, in the life of my child, you bring way more problems into their life. Not less generally speaking, and, and again, then they, but they take, no, they bear no responsibility to that. What is their argument?

Yeah. So we're just now starting to get their responses kind of the stage of the case. Um, you know, so we're, that's so a little bit in flux, but you know, as to your first point about kind of like the experts, you know, it's, it's pretty clear that kids are better off when their parents are supportive and helping them make decisions like these. And one thing you do hear sometimes in these conversations is kind of, you know, that this, this kind of using a different name, dressing differently, that sort sort of thing, it's kind of downplayed, but experts in this field agree that this is a kind of medical treatment that the schools are engaging in. It's not just kind of, you know, let's try this out and everything will turn out fine. This is actually medical treatment. And so the schools don't really have any business pushing kids into this particular medical treatment without consulting their parents.

Well, especially, we all know that when we were growing up, peer pressure was huge. Peer pressure was never really to do the right thing for us. So tended to always do the, be to do the wrong thing. Peer pressure's huge at school. And if your, if your teacher is not in that sense, reflecting the role of the parent, that, that, that they're an authority figure that, that tamps, this kind of stuff down who knows what the ramifications, uh, to that could be. And I think that's one of the things that parents are really starting to worry about, which is, am I sending my child to school to learn things, or do they think that my child is, is like their patient? And this is therapy. Now, what would, I mean, at this stage of the game, you say we're early on in the, in the process, um, what what's coming next for this. And I know you've got some other cases around the country. What does it look like on the horizon? I, you said you think that there's kind of a wave of response, is it because parents are finally waking up to, to what's going on with a lot of this stuff?

Yeah. You know, as to kind of this wave we've, we've talked with parents and there is a lot of, you mentioned COVID earlier, and there was a lot of that when you're doing distance learning, you really get to see what's going on in the classroom. We've heard from a lot of parents that were surprised at what was going on in the classroom, right. To be honest, kind of in, in this sort of space. And so I think that that, that is driving some of the responses parents, you know, are hearing this, you know, in, in this case, you know, the, you have a policy that's actually trying to deceive the parents. So they don't, they didn't necessarily have an opportunity in the past, uh, to know about this. Right. Um, but we do have cases going on elsewhere. You know, I mentioned the ones in Wisconsin that we've got, uh, those, those are a little farther along. They're kinda getting in to the case seriously and, and Harrisonburg we're at the stage where we've initially asked the court to block the school's policy while the case goes forward. Um, and we're hoping for a good decision on that. Maybe sometime this fall,

You know, even if we win this case, the question I always have is will they abide by it? How binding are these things? Because I feel like parents are starting to realize, wow, they have our money. They actually run the curriculum and, and we can protest against the school board, but they don't really listen to us and they kind do as they please. And a lot of times they don't even tell us. So even if we win, you know, tell me what you think would happen if we win. Is it something where it could actually start to put a firewall against some of this stuff for the sake of parents around the country?

Yeah. You're, you're right. To kind of highlight the different aspects of the response here. I think that litigation is a piece of this and it's important. And, you know, victories in the courtroom are wonderful. You know, we saw this summer with something like Dobbs, how important that can be. That's the Supreme court's abortion decision from earlier this summer, um, where they overturn Roe versus Wade, right. Uh, but, but it's not the whole, it's not the whole piece. There's a, there's a culture shaping aspect to this that, you know, is important to us at ADF too, where we wanna change hearts and minds on these issues along with shaping kind of courtroom victories. So that's important to us. And I think that's an important thing for parents to be thinking about as well, kind of, you know, when they talk to their, their friends and neighbors about these issues locally, you know, school boards are controlled at the local level, right? They have, they have the opportunity to, to vote in those elections. They have the opportunity, you know, if it comes to it, to run for a position on their school board and try to see things change in a positive direction, you know, doesn't have to stay this way. They can influence the school board to respect parents rights, I think.

Well, and I, you know, I appreciate that too. Uh, like I said before, I think cuz I've read and I've talked to many, many educators in the public system who are just as frustrated. I mean, it's not just the parents who are frustrated. There are a lot of teachers, like you said, you represent teachers, uh, on these things too. And I guess what I struggle with is all parents wanna do is they want to have their children raised. And they educated in a moral, ethical framework that reflects their values. And, and you know, we've seen even in the pandemic science, science doesn't come valueless, uh, and, and, and science can be manipulated and used all different ways too. Cuz science just tells us that's something, is it doesn't tell us whether it's right or whether it's wrong. So you just said, get the parents ready for this. Maybe they can be more part of this. They can be a part of the board. They can do all these things. Is this something too where school choice finally is, is the logical extension in the, in the Milu that we're in?

Well, you know, one, I think what I'll say on that is say the family is we represent in Harrisonburg. You know, it's a piece of this case that they they're saying to the court, that's just not an option for us, that we need the public schools. And we rely on the public schools to, to help us educate our kids. Um, and we shouldn't have to sacrifice our religious beliefs. We shouldn't have to sacrifice our role, you know, our in the religious upbringing because you know, that's part of the court, those Supreme court cases on parents' rights recognize that this is part of people's religious duty to bring up their children. And what these parents are saying is that yeah, some people can go to Christian schools. That's great. It's not on the table for us for various reasons. So we shouldn't have to lose our rights in order to take advantage of the public school in option.

Well, and I guess I wanna be clear on this too. Um, a moral education, there are a lot of religions and even ethical secular people that I know who hold very similar moral worldviews, um, to the kind of worldview of the Judeo Christian worldview. So again, sometimes people put us in this box, like we're enforcing our religion and our moral views on things. When in, in reality, I would say, this is one of those times where the, I think this will be one of the arguments that these are minority students who feel outta place and we have to respect their rights. Well, you know, we're talking about 1%, you know, if that maybe a little bit more now that it's becoming, you know, avant garde to actually become a person who changes their pronouns. But we're now saying to the 97%, no, you're, you're, you're gonna, these are the values of education. Isn't isn't that what's really part of this lawsuit.

Yeah, that's exactly right. That, that the parents are saying these ideas about sex and gender they're, they're not something we can agree with as Christians, the teachers are saying same thing. We can't agree with these things. We can't promote them by participating in this, in the classroom. And, uh, the parents are saying, we they're saying we shouldn't have to send our kids to a school where you're pushing these ideas, that, you know, our contrary to our religion, our, our ideas about parenting, our ideas about morality and sexuality, that we shouldn't have to sacrifice those to get this public education. And, and this is, this is the school's viewpoint on these topics. There are already, you mentioned there are some kind of settled court cases on kind of teachers, college professors and these sorts of settings. And the court say, you know, this is a viewpoint on a contested cultural issue that the school is taking the school can't force that viewpoint on teachers. And then what we're saying here by extension, you can't force parents out of the decision about how, how that viewpoint is forced on their kids.

I think you're right. And I think one of the things that we see happening in, in our work on this is it's to obfuscate not to clarify because you know, the, he, she, they, it's all rooted in something that is bigger than you. So you are he because you're biologically male. If you go to the doctor, they have to, they still have to look at your cells because your cells react to medicine different than the cells of a she. And that's a beautiful thing. That's, that's that's medicine actually doing better for men, better for women in this whole egalitarianism and then obfuscating, whether you're they or she, which means are you a part of a group or are you a singular person? These were all meant to actually be more specific and help me understand that I'm talking to you. So like you're saying here, there's an, there's an obfuscation going on. And then for the school to participate in that, uh, this can't be a good thing. Well, listen, we are, I know we're almost out of time with you. So how can we be more supportive of your efforts? Is this something where people can go find out more about this? Where would they go?

Yeah. ADF legal, ADF, media.org, but the two different websites that you can learn all about our cases. You can click through to the parental rights cases on those websites. And, you know, as far as supporting us, you know, prayer is powerful and, and we would, we covet your listeners prayer. And in these cases, in all our

Cases, great to have you on, uh, Vincent today and what we look forward to talking to you after you win the case. Thanks a lot, take care. And now I'd like to welcome back to our program, Tim Galine, who's the vice president of government affairs for focus on the family, a good friend of the LCR L uh, welcome Tim.

Great to be with you, Greg.

Well, what did you think about that conversation?

Very powerful and focus on the family. Very strongly supports both Alliance, defending freedom and the Lutheran center for religious Liberty in this matter. It, it, it is very crucial that we go back to first principles, right? And the first principal at focus on the family is that parents are the first teachers and they have the principal responsibility and the principal blessing, and honor to be raising their children in the way that they feel is best. And, uh, as was made so clear by Vincent in your conversation with him, Greg, just because children go to school does not mean that somehow that parental authority or responsibility is ipso, facto severed. If anything, when our children go into the public square, into public schools, other public institutions, parents do not constitutionally somehow give up those rights. And unfortunately in the Harrisonburg case and too many troubling, similar cases around the country, that's the practical effect.

And, you know, uh, Tim, one of the things that I, and I'm really struggling with this because I, I get letters even not a lot. Uh, I wouldn't say it's the, the bulk of our church, but I get an occasional letter saying, you know, we are way too concerned about these things. These things are not as big a deal as we're making them out to be. And I frankly it shocks me because, and, and the typical a typical argument is because if we fight for things like parental rights, we are getting in the way of our testimony of the gospel in the culture. And I, first of all, I don't know what kind of gospel is a generic gospel that doesn't, isn't, uh, dealing with the repentance of sin. So if you can't proclaim honor your father and your mother, I don't know that you can proclaim the gospel to someone who's repentant, who's, who's, you know, not honored their father and your mother. So again, just getting up the 10 commandments now seem to be these mean spirited words of God that we're supposed to somehow overlook, but it really bugs me when they think that defending this fundamental and not just right responsibility, parents are gonna be held responsible by God, himself for what they do with their children. Yeah. Yeah. So again, talk to talk to our church, talk to our people and, and say again, you know, this is not only our responsibility, uh, proclaiming this stuff is part of being a Christian voice in the culture,

You know, at focus on the family, Greg, uh, one of, of the most powerful parts of our ministry is our help desk. Thi this is the place where, uh, 24, 7 52 parents, grandparents, aunts, uncles, cousins, people within a family who have a real concern can call focus on the family and say, I need to speak to somebody about this issue or that issue, uh, regarding family marriage parenting. Here's what is genuinely sobering. And I might say even shocking that one of the biggest trends that we are hearing at focus on the family is parents and grandparents who phone our help desk and say, and I'm giving a variation on what we hear regularly, my son or daughter, my grandson, or my granddaughter came home from school today. And they asked me, am I a boy or a girl that this issue came up, uh, in the classroom, that there was a discussion, uh, about human sexuality, uh, by the way, often at very young ages and that not reconfirming, or if I may say affirming the worldview of the parents or grandparents, unfortunately there is a license being taken where there is no objective reality that there are not, uh, you know, the biological male and the biological female, right?

And, uh, it's, uh, it, it is an issue which is profoundly confusing and hurtful and has a very deleterious effect on a young person when they go into a, a classroom and, and a teacher or a counselor, which, you know, by its great nature, affirms authority, right? The best kind of authority. And, and of a sudden their whole world is turned upside down. You know, that, that that's not objective, uh, Greg, what that is, it's, it's actually taking aside in a culture war, and it is undermining the role of, uh, of parents and of the family.

Well, the sexualization, you know, that's what, uh, DeSantis did down in Florida. He said, this is grooming stuff. Cuz these kids that are being taught this stuff, sometimes you're talking about second, third grade, you're talking about very young children and we know scientifically how long it takes for the brain and for the body to work through these things. And they're introducing this confusion at such a young age. We don't need these activists. And I think that's what we're starting to see in school. These activists who say, no, we're going to sexualize your children and, and we're gonna dare you to stop us. And that should be troubling. Like you said, not just to Christian parents that should be troubling, uh, to parents throughout.

Um, this is a, uh, a new form of, uh, of theology, right? Uh, but it's not, it's not brand new to the contemporary world, but it's a newer iteration of what at one time was called moral relativism, right? Situational ethics, that there is nothing that is objectively true. There's no right and wrong. There's no male and female. There's no such thing really as parental authority and that. And so to, to frost, uh, young people and to make, uh, those kind of incredibly important distinctions foggy at a young age, uh, is a moral relativism, uh, Goam up.

Well, Tim, thank you very much for being here with, uh, us today. This is the back to school, special folks. You gotta be aware of what's being taught to your children because that is one of the ways that you can keep them close, uh, to the Lord and close to your family. So thanks for being with us today, Tim,

Thank you so much.

Thanks for tuning in today to get to know our LC R LDC work better. Check out our website@lclfreedom.org till next time. God bless you. Always I'm Greg sells have a great week.

You've been listening to Liberty action alert with Greg Seltz executive director of the Lutheran center for religious Liberty in Washington, DC. This program has been brought to you by the Lutheran center for religious Liberty.