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Wondering how to spot red flags when dating a narcissist? In this episode, I sit down with Jonathan from Awakening Expansion, a recovered narcissist, to explore the warning signs you need to know. From love-bombing to a lack of empathy, we uncover the subtle—and not-so-subtle—behaviors narcissists display in relationships, plus how to protect yourself. Jonathan shares his recovery journey, offering rare insights into the narcissist’s mind and actionable tips to identify these traits early. Whether you’re dating someone new or healing from a past relationship, this conversation brings clarity and empowerment. Subscribe for more real talk on relationships and personal growth!

Tags: Red Flags When Dating a Narcissist, Recovered Narcissist, Narcissist Recovery, Spot a Narcissist, Love-Bombing, Gaslighting, Narcissistic Behavior

Okay.

Hello, beautiful humans.

Welcome to the Midlife Revolution.

I'm your host, Megan Conner.

And tonight I am joined once

again by Jonathan.

Jonathan,

thanks for being here with us tonight.

Great to be here.

Thanks for having me again.

I just did a revamp and I

changed everything.

So it's all under the awakening expansion.

So now TikTok,

YouTube and Instagram is

awakening expansion.

Awesome.

So I thought that tonight, this is our,

I guess,

our fourth time talking together.

And our other episodes that

we did were kind of deep dives.

I think it's a helpful

conversation to have.

What are some of the red

flags that come up when

you're dating a narcissist

or when you're in a

relationship with a narcissist?

And what should you do when

you notice some of these red flags?

So I have a little bit of a list,

but I'm curious from your perspective.

So for those of you who are

joining us for the first

time who don't know Jonathan,

Jonathan is a former member

of the Church of Jesus

Christ of Latter-day Saints,

as am I. Jonathan went

through an entire

deconstruction journey with addiction,

relationship issues, and became...

aware that he was using

narcissistic traits in his

relationship and is now a

certified healer and is

trying to help other, especially men,

realize the manipulative

tactics that they might be

employing in their relationships.

And what else do you want to

say about that?

Yeah, it's really exciting.

It's really just going back

to what I want my my

channel and everything to

be is really just

understanding your conditioning,

understanding your programing,

understanding that that kind

of voice inside your head

isn't really you and the

true you deep down in there

is just pure light pure joy

and has infinite capacity

for love joy curiosity and

and we get so bogged down

with everything that we saw

growing up everything that

we were taught growing up

and that really programmed

us into something that

might not be in alignment

with with what we want and

that can cause a lot of

depression that can cause a lot of

just really difficult times

whereas you're able to

explore that see where

they're coming from and

really heal through those

uncomfortable times and

those uncomfortable parts

that you don't necessarily

understand and beginning to

see where they're coming

from understanding they're

there to protect you they

may have learned

maladaptive measures to do

so but once you can kind of

begin that journey with self-awareness

You can see where a lot of

these things came from and

you can have a lot more

compassion for yourself and

then realize tapping right

back into that little child

and really having so much

more room for self-expansion,

capacity for love,

for affection for others,

for just outright

unconditional love that

maybe you didn't really

even understand how to do.

And that's kind of what I went through.

What I was raised with

taught me a lot of things,

and as we've discussed in

the LDS church specifically,

it does foster and cater to

a lot of narcissistic

tendencies that can develop.

And I'm simply trying to

show people that that's not

how it has to be,

and that there truly is a way to heal,

learn from those parts,

and expand into...

truly the highest self and

the version of you that

you've always wanted.

It's all within you and it's achievable.

That's awesome.

I love that.

okay so i'm thinking back to

when i first got divorced

and i was out there in the

dating scene which i

absolutely hated i did not

enjoy it at all but um i

think it was constantly

like a sifting process of

like going through you know

looking at profiles and

then messaging with

somebody and then you

finally find someone you do

want to meet in person and

then it's like the first date

And then it's like, well,

is there going to be a

second date kind of thing?

So I don't know about you

out in the dating world, but for me,

I was constantly looking for red flags.

I was looking for it in our

messaging before we even

met up in person.

Then I was looking for it in person,

looking for body language,

other things like that.

So, you know, just given the fact that

There are so many different

personality styles out there.

And there are plenty of

people out there who have

maybe some narcissistic traits,

but who aren't necessarily

a full-blown narcissist.

So we don't want to kind of

just put up a wall and say, oh,

I'm never going to talk to

anybody ever again.

But we want to be informed

about what some red flags might be.

And then if we're currently

in a relationship,

it might be helpful for us

to take some of these ideas

and think about our

interactions with our

current partner and see how

healthy our relationship is.

So I don't know if you have

a jumping off point that

you want to go from or

what's the best way to dive in.

Yeah, well, we can start there for sure.

And like you said,

not everyone is a full-blown narcissist,

but we all have narcissistic tendencies.

Like,

let's all just understand that and

give ourselves some grace through society,

through everything we live

in and how this world works.

We all do.

that's okay it just becomes

how much of it is our is

their self-awareness is

their accountability is

there a desire to

understand these things and

so you mentioned right out

dating we can kind of start

there I would I would be on the prowl for

Because obviously during the

beginning of dating,

we call getting to know

each other honeymoon phase.

You're on your best behavior.

You're not really showing

who you are fully.

And that's okay.

Let's all understand that

that's kind of a part of dating.

I wish it wasn't.

But one thing to look for is...

what what becomes toxic i

think is a person is

looking for something

specific and you know

you're kind of asking each

other questions and you're

loving that you're agreeing

on something and then

subconsciously like from a

person who's had deep

narcissistic tendencies um

that i didn't realize but

you're looking for them to

fit this box right you're

looking for them to fit into

what I want.

And, and in those beginning stages,

a lot of times we cater to

the other person because

we're trying to say what we

think they want.

And that's,

we're not getting into the

realm of toxicity yet

because you're trying to, you know,

you're trying to accommodate,

you're trying to find

common ground and that's all okay.

But I think

So the first advice I would

give is don't do that too much.

Be who you are, first of all.

And if there is a

disagreement and you guys

completely are not on the

same page with something, that's okay.

That's the beauty of growing

and learning a new perspective.

And so I think too often we see that as,

oh,

I've got to change this person or I've

got to run.

and that's that's

understandable but let's

first just start off like

you're actually trying to

get to know the person

you're really trying to get

to know them and you're not

trying to meet the

secretary the receptionist

you're trying to get to

meet them and you don't

want to necessarily only

see them on their best

behavior you don't want to

agree on everything and i

think we can get caught up

into that because it's like oh yes

We agree on this politic.

We agree on this.

This is great.

This is great.

And that is great.

But I think sometimes we can,

we can get caught up in that.

And before we know it,

we ourselves have put on a

mask to accommodate the

other person and they may

have done that too.

And further down the line,

that's going to lead to

some very difficult situations.

So maybe starting there, you know,

in the early dating scene, right.

Yeah.

And I agree with you that it

is wise to be somewhat guarded, to not,

you know,

give away all your secrets on

the first date, you know,

to reserve some things and

to not necessarily, you know,

come out and be a hundred

percent vulnerable to overshare,

to trauma dump,

any of that kind of stuff

when you're first meeting somebody.

For me personally, I think

what I keep coming back to

all the time is that all

relationships are about, well,

all healthy relationships

are about good communication.

So for me,

the first things that I notice are

whether or not somebody is

engaging in a conversation.

Is this conversation two-way

street or is it one-sided?

Is this them telling me all

about themselves and never

asking me a question?

Me trying to share something

and then them steering it

right back to their own

description of themselves

or whatever it is that they

wanna tell me.

So for me,

that to me is the first thing

that I notice is whether or

not the conversation is a two-way street.

Yes, absolutely.

That's a great point.

Because if it's truly a

narcissist or someone who

has deep tendencies, let's say,

they're viewing this as an

opportunity for a show.

They are thinking of it in

terms of how did I perform?

Did she like me?

Is she thinking about me now?

How was my performance, right?

And so, that's not how it should be,

right?

It really should be an

opportunity for you two to

get to know each other and

it doesn't have to be like

how you performed and I

caught myself doing that.

of trying to just perform really,

really well.

And so if you're trying to, you know,

piece through some

potential red flags is

exactly what you said is,

did they engage me?

Were they genuinely

interested in what I had to say?

Was there some follow up questions?

Or tell me more about that.

That is fascinating, you know,

instead of redirecting the

conversation so that I can now present

my genius or how great i am

you know that's a that's a

clear red flag that i would

be concerned with as as

charming as impressive as

whatever it may be keep

that tab and i think i

always you know since i've

learned that similar thing

is do they ask me things

you know are they

interested in who i am do

they really want to

understand me and truly get

to know me or is this a performance

Yeah, that's a really good point.

The performance aspect of it.

Also,

I think I can tell when somebody is

listening to understand me

versus listening to have a

response to something, you know,

I can sort of see them like

holding that thought in their head.

Okay.

Okay.

When, when she's done, then I'll,

I'm going to say my thing.

So just those first

communication pieces to me,

that's a big deal.

And you know,

It's again,

I'm gonna preface all of this

that we're talking about by saying, again,

that just because you

encounter a red flag or even two,

it doesn't necessarily mean that, okay,

we're done,

we're gonna end the

relationship right here.

Sorry.

We can just sort of make

note of the things that

we're noticing and sort of

put that in the database, you know,

just to inform

conversations going forward.

yes yeah telltale is is are

they truly interested and

like you said you can kind

of start to see um if

you're maybe finishing up

your thought or you can see

them react in a way to they

now know what they're gonna

say and honestly you can

kind of check that um

by maybe asking a follow-up question,

but really just look at this as,

is this person interested

in getting to know who I am?

You know, and like you said before,

in the beginning,

you don't want a trauma dump, right?

We don't want to go there.

And especially with a

narcissist where there's

this deep attraction or whatever,

there is a desire to be

vulnerable and reveal

things because you feel

this special feeling.

Well, I hate to break it to you,

that special feeling.

isn't necessarily the sign

of a secure relationship.

That can be anxiety.

That can be their emotional

inavailability.

So just be cognizant of that

special butterfly feeling

because it's not

necessarily a good thing.

It's something to notice and

be cognizant of because

that's not necessarily the

universe or God saying this is the one.

Your body is literally

having an emotional

response to something.

Yeah.

And a lot of times when it's

a new relationship,

that emotional response is

just this is new.

It's exciting.

It's fun to be out.

It's fun to be meeting somebody new.

It doesn't necessarily mean

that they're the one or

that there's some kind of

lightning bolt moment that's happening.

So, again,

just being observant in those

early days and taking in the information,

but not necessarily ignoring.

taking action on it yet.

Just learning all that we can.

Yes.

And someone with

narcissistic tendencies

will push the relationship and go very,

very quickly.

Things will escalate very, very quickly.

And so please be aware of that.

Be on your guard.

There is never any reason to

rush anything ever.

ever, regardless of what they say.

So just be aware of that.

If you sense that they are

starting to want to maybe

get into the trauma quickly,

just be aware of that.

And as we've said before,

boundaries are really important.

And if this is a great

person and they truly were

just maybe a little excited,

they're going to respect that boundary.

Yeah.

The other thing is, you know,

we hear a lot about the

love bombing phase in a

narcissistic relationship cycle.

And for whatever reason,

that has never really

resonated with me as

something that I could

easily pick out as a red flag,

because I think all new

relationships go through a

phase where it's new, it's exciting.

You're maybe texting each other a lot.

You're calling each other a lot.

There's a desire to spend a

lot of time together,

as much time together as possible.

I don't necessarily see that

as a red flag.

I think all relationships go

through that particular phase.

For me,

where love bombing becomes a red

flag is when it follows a

cycle of like we had a fight,

we had an argument,

we disagreed about something,

it was pretty bad.

And then all of a sudden,

Just a short time later,

we're back with love bombing again.

You know,

that excessive apologizing or

buying big expensive gifts

or the big fancy dinners or

things like that.

I don't know how much of

that you experienced or participated in,

but if you want to comment

on that or not.

yeah sure so um yeah love

bombing is is tricky

because obviously in the

beginning you're excited

and um you're wanting to

impress and you're you're

you're excited about the

potential and you see

someone that you like being

around and so your behavior is going to

show that.

So the love doing a lot

deeper dive right into

understanding narcissistic

tendencies and so forth.

Um

Because in my situation,

she did want to take it

slower and I did push for that.

And looking back,

I didn't necessarily even

understand why I wanted to do that.

But if you take a really

deep dive into that,

the reason is that wearing that mask

we'll just assume, you know,

during the love bombing

which is I want to get

supply from you and I want

to be able to remove my

mask as quickly as possible, right?

Because it's exhausting.

So,

a reason that true narcissistic

disorder people do that is

they're trying to get you

quick so that they can get

you and remove the mask.

And they don't have to really try anymore,

if that makes sense.

So that's where the love

bombing becomes toxic.

But a perfectly normal

person in the beginning can

totally express love and

show admiration and really

try to impress and have a good time.

Those are fun,

precious memories that you can create.

Now, yes,

when conflict does arrive and

perhaps a mask comes off

and there is a fight or something,

what you wanna be cognizant

of and look out for is you

really want true conflict resolution.

You do not want just the

love bombing or the

emotionality or

vulnerability to just get

back to baseline, right?

Because getting back to baseline

over a long period of time

is dissatisfying for the other person.

They're unhappy.

Well,

getting back to baseline for a

narcissist is happy, is comfort,

is what they're trying to

get back to versus

we're going to have a really understanding,

loving conflict resolution

situation where you feel heard,

I feel heard,

I understand what the misstep was,

what the miscommunication was,

and now there's going to be

a commitment to change in moving forward.

It shouldn't just be let's

get back to the lovey-dovey

stage of now we're back in

our comfort zone.

Yeah,

so that's definitely something that I

look out for is how do

people handle conflict and

how do they take criticism?

Are they able to receive

criticism without shame?

Are they able to give

criticism without judgment?

And then when a conflict arises,

how do they handle that?

Are they able to regulate their emotions,

manage their anger?

And then, as you say,

I think probably the most

important piece of that is

the repair after conflict.

Are they able to make that

relational repair?

Are they able to take it back into, okay,

can we come to an understanding?

Here's a resolution type of situation.

Or are they going to punish

you with things like the silent treatment,

the cold shoulder treatment?

You know,

are they going to try to get you

to suffer because you've

had this conflict?

So that's another thing that

I think is really important

that I look out for.

Yes.

If they are overly defensive,

that is that is not a good sign.

If they immediately feel

attacked at any request or

bid that you put out,

that's that's just not a good sign.

And and maybe

you know,

thinking back of how that could have,

what could have helped me

better in that situation is,

is if you do see that,

in a calm manner, just be like,

I feel like you're getting

very defensive about what I am saying.

Can you walk me through that?

Like,

what are you feeling and what are the

thoughts that you're

experiencing right now as

I'm saying this and asking for this?

What about that makes you defensive,

you know?

And I think it's always good

if they're willing to open

up and maybe they even

catch themselves because

most people with

narcissistic tendencies

don't think they're a

narcissist and they don't

think that getting

defensive is necessarily narcissistic.

And it doesn't have to be.

It's not.

It's a pattern.

And it's a willingness to,

as we always say, take accountability.

And one way to not take

accountability is to

deflect and turn it around

and get very defensive.

So that taking accountability piece,

you know, it can show up in small ways,

especially early on in a

dating relationship.

You know,

it looks like blaming everything

on the waiter instead of

taking responsibility for

your own actions.

you know actions during the

dinner or whatever so we

can always have in our

minds sort of those

narcissistic traits to be

on the lookout for and the

ways that they show up in

you know a dating

relationship or an early on relationship

So I think about that

inability to take responsibility.

That I think is probably the

biggest piece.

For me,

that's the biggest red flag that I

watch out for.

Are they able to apologize?

Are they able to say, oh,

I should have handled that differently,

you know?

And then that need for

constant praise or approval

can look like fishing for

compliments or constantly

talking about their

accomplishments or their

achievements or whatever.

What are some of the other

things that stand out to

you in that area?

Yeah,

so getting back to the accountability,

a lot of excuses were presented.

Very rarely was it ever just like,

you know what?

you are right,

I completely forgot or I did

not put enough effort into that.

I should have absolutely did that.

There was always a reason

why that commitment or

whatever it was wasn't able

to be fulfilled as

requested and agreed upon, right?

There was always an excuse to downgrade it,

right?

And I would be very careful

of looking at that.

Excuses happen, right?

But if you start to see a pattern of that,

I think that's really, really crucial.

And it's a way that someone, you know,

that I went through is able

to literally in my own head justify it.

that can be

really tough to grapple

with

when

you confront someone with a

problematic behavior how do

they respond you know

that's a big part of it

Yeah.

And I think, you know,

in that honeymoon phase or

the love bombing,

that is why that kind of

happens is they're avoiding

that at all costs because they don't want,

sometimes they don't even

trust themselves or they

fear themselves of what

they'll say if there is a

disagreement or something.

So I think that is why it

can be prolonged so long

and maybe pushing into the

you know,

moving in with each other or

pushing into a serious

committed relationship

happens sooner so that when

those things do arise,

you assume that you guys

are in too deep and she won't,

or he won't leave.

Yeah, for sure.

So I guess that kind of

brings me to my other, you know, the,

the last point that I sort

of wanted to touch on is, um,

when you enact or enforce a

personal boundary,

how does the other person react?

So for example,

you're saying the person is

gonna push to move in

together really soon.

We

to me, looking at, okay,

what does it look like if I

give some pushback about that?

If I say, hey,

I'm not quite ready for that yet.

How do they respond to that?

Do they get super angry and

start trying to say that, you know,

guilt trip you, say that you don't really,

you must not really care about me,

you know, those kinds of excuses.

Or do they say, hey,

that's totally understandable.

You know, I get it.

Are they coming at it from a

place of understanding and

like wanting to get to know

you and why you feel this way?

Or are they just defensive

and wanting to control the situation?

Yeah, absolutely spot on, Megan, again.

And I kind of want to bring

up maybe a little less

obvious one because I

didn't realize this was

going on at the time.

But it's not going to be as

obvious as they immediately

get ticked off and start

yelling at you at the first

time you challenge or set a boundary.

No, it doesn't have to be that obvious.

It can be true, heartfelt...

know have traits that they

don't even realize they

have that they these these

things are ingrained and

and if they haven't done

the work they don't even

know they're there so it

can be really tricky and so

i'm just going to be honest

and kind of point out some

things that um in those

situations you have to be

really careful of um in in

my mind or in the mind of

someone with narcissistic

tendencies they really believe

A, what they feel and B, what they say.

They really believe that.

So if there's a boundary and

maybe in a skewed way,

I view that as you're

trying to distance yourself

from me and you're really

not wanting to get as close

to me as I want to get to you.

then you know in my brain

that's that's that's a red

flag for me because i'm

like i'm i love and care

about you more than you

love and care about me and

you actually believe that

and and that's not good um

so i'm just trying to maybe

call out some things that

it's never it's not always

just gonna be that he he

yells at you and causes

violence when you bring up

a boundary no like he

really or she or whoever

believes that they're in

love and they're they're on

a one-track mind to be with

you the rest of your life

and get you and live

happily ever after like

those were feelings that I

had and I was concerned that maybe

she didn't love me as much as I loved her.

And so that was,

that was brought up and it

makes me cringe a little

bit now talking about it,

but it's not always going to be like,

you know, Oh, you're setting a boundary.

How dare you?

It's like hurt.

Like, Oh my gosh, this is threatening my,

you know, self-esteem.

I need your validation.

And I'm interpreting that as

you don't want this as much as me.

And that's devastating.

So just, I guess, watch out for that,

you know,

because it's not always as

obvious as you think.

welcome.

So many of us have

abandonment wounds and we

don't realize it.

And we don't realize that

that's what's happening

when someone puts up a

boundary or they take a

step back or even they say, slow down,

not ready for that yet.

A lot of that feels like

abandonment to those of us

who have that wound.

And so when the relationship

isn't going the way that

you think it ought to or

the way that you want it to,

it's really easy to get

offended and upset and

blame it on the other

person rather than saying, okay,

I'm upset right now.

It's not your fault for

wanting the relationship to

progress and I don't or vice versa,

right?

What we have to take a look at is, huh,

I'm having some emotions

come up that feel scary to me.

I don't like them.

It's not your fault.

This is something that is

coming from my side of the street.

So I need to be the one to unpack that.

I need to meditate.

I need to journal.

I need to figure out why I'm

feeling this way because

nine times out of ten in a

healthy relationship,

It's going to be something

that either you or your

partner bring to the

relationship from some past

encounter or some past

trauma that's happened.

So while it is important to

be aware of red flags,

it's also important to

think about the idea that

none of us come to a

relationship perfectly whole, healed,

and healthy.

You know,

we all have our issues that we're

going to bring to the table and

And I think that especially at this age,

and you're younger than I am, but for me,

when you're talking about a

second primary relationship

or you're talking about

after a divorce or after a

long-term relationship has ended,

you're always going to

bring some of that wounding

to the new relationship

unless you take your time

to work through it and figure it out.

So all of that just to say,

we're talking about all these red flags,

but it's also really

important to recognize

when a person is just trying

to do their best.

And for me,

that looks like the ability to say, hey,

I'm not sure exactly what happened,

but here's how I'm feeling.

And I'd really like to

figure this out with you,

as opposed to all of the

red flag things like gaslighting,

the silent treatment,

passive aggressive actions.

Those are the things that, you know,

if you can come through a

enacting some of these other

passive aggressive actions,

gaslighting and stuff like that,

then that's probably not a

relationship that's able to

progress because you can't

work through the conflict.

Yeah, absolutely.

And everyone is going to bring,

I hate the word, but baggage, trauma.

I mean, in a perfect world,

we would all have

gone through and healed our

trauma and we can just jump

right into a secure relationship,

but that's just not the reality.

And we all have different

attachment styles.

We have abandonment wounds.

We all have different histories.

We all have things that we

went through and that we suffered from.

And narcissism,

people who have

narcissistic tendencies or

even the flat out disorder,

they went through some stuff.

And if it's unresolved,

it's going to be really, really difficult,

unfortunately.

So, these, I think, are good ways to,

you know,

kind of test and see how they respond.

Um,

I did not know I had these things that

I needed to resolve.

I, I was clean and sober.

I had a lot of breakthroughs

and rehab and I had done a

lot of internal work on myself.

Um, but then jump, you know,

getting into a relationship

that it's a big mirror and

a lot of things can pop up

that if they're unresolved,

they will show themselves for sure.

Yeah.

Yeah, definitely.

So I guess just to kind of wrap up,

and I don't know if you

have additional things that

you wanted to talk about, but.

I think it's easy to look at

the narcissistic traits and say like,

okay, if somebody's gaslighting me,

obviously that's a red flag.

If somebody is grandiose,

obviously that's a red flag.

If somebody is making it all

about them or if they're

constantly needing validation, like those,

obviously we know those

things are red flags.

I wanted to just talk about

things that come up in a

little more of a subtle way.

The other point that I want

to be sure to make is that

no relationship is going to

be without conflict.

And so for me,

the most important thing is

how do you resolve conflict?

How do you handle conflict?

How do you repair afterwards?

And do you have an ability

to go through a conflict

together and communicate in

healthy ways about it?

And I guess my two big,

huge things are that I

deserve to be treated with

kindness and respect.

even when we're in the middle of conflict.

So if we're having a disagreement,

if we're having a debate,

if there's something we

fundamentally just don't

see eye to eye on,

it's still possible for us

to have a relationship.

But in those disagreements,

in those debates,

am I being treated with

kindness and respect?

Am I being heard and understood?

Do I feel validated by the

person across the table

from me in a way that makes

me feel empowered to continue

developing myself or do I

feel like I'm having to avoid topics?

Do I feel like I'm having to

change the subject?

Do I feel like I'm having to

hide parts of myself or

change parts of myself in

order to fit into this relationship?

So those are some of the

things that I look for.

Yeah, and that's really smart.

If you're not able to be

your full authentic self,

then what are we doing?

And I mean that with the

most compassion ever

because I've been there.

I created a situation where

my partner couldn't be her

full authentic self and, you know, not –

avoiding conflict or

avoiding certain things or

walking on eggshells or

changing parts of her to

accommodate me and that's

that's not a great feeling

you know but conflict

resolution and being

respectful and kind to each

other during that like if

you can go into an understanding like

if they're willing to work on this,

I'm willing to work with them, right?

And I think that's so crucial.

And instead of, you know,

I've said this before,

I really avoided shame.

Like,

I never wanted to admit or feel like

I was the problem.

And that goes back to a lot

of my own self-esteem and

being able to self-validate

and self-love.

So,

Things to look out for maybe,

and I hate to say this,

but I think you really need to,

is understand what their

parent dynamic was like.

How did their parents treat each other?

Because I promise you,

as much as I never wanted

to become what I saw as

negative parts of my parents or my dad,

Even when I thought I was

doing absolutely everything

I possibly could not to be like that,

it's kind of imprinted.

It's almost through osmosis

that that happens.

And how did he treat his wife?

Was there respect?

What was their conflict resolution like?

And I wish we had had these

discussions before.

with my previous partner and

understanding like we avoided conflict,

like the plague, you know,

my dad wouldn't bring up an issue.

He would just silent treatment or rage.

And I always, you know,

I'm thinking in my head, yeah, what a,

what a jerk.

How could you possibly do that?

That can come up and you

don't even want it to, you know,

and you don't even want it to.

Yeah,

I think it's so easy to fall into

what was modeled for us.

So we have to give ourselves

a lot of compassion and

grace for the fact that if

we didn't have a healthy

model as a child of adults

resolving conflict in healthy ways,

we're obviously not going

to know how to do it.

So we have to teach

ourselves how to do it.

We have to learn by trial and error.

And

You know,

I think what one of the things

you said is really important to consider,

like if this person wants to work on it,

I will work on it with them.

However,

I'll put a little caveat in there

as well.

One of the things Dr. Romney says,

and she's the narcissist expert,

she says anyone can change.

The narcissist won't.

They don't think there's

anything wrong with their behavior.

So if you're working on

something with your partner

and you recognize the same

patterns of behavior and

the same cycles are coming

up over and over again,

there's your red flag right there.

Because, yeah, I agree with you.

Like if somebody else wants

to work on the relationship,

I want to work on it, too.

It's a you know, it's a joint effort here.

But if it gets to the point

where they're breadcrumbing you,

in other words,

like just making just

enough change to keep you hanging on,

but then they go back to

their same old patterns of relating again,

those are red flags.

So there is a point at which

you have to assess the

relationship in this situation and say,

okay, have we been here before?

Is this something that we've

already worked on and we

thought was going to change

and now it's come up again?

Or is this a new issue?

We just always have to be

relating or sorry,

always have to be evaluating.

Is this a cycle that's

unhealthy that we're repeating?

Or are we really working

together for a solution?

Exactly.

And a more subtle thing that

I think needs to be considered

there can be accountability

or like remorse or I'm so

sorry and acknowledging that.

And I hope that that doesn't

immediately think in your head, okay,

I can excuse them now

because they're taking

accountability and they've

said they're sorry.

Well,

there has to be action, right?

And I fell into this and I

wanted to change and I wanted,

and I truly was sorry, but there was,

for whatever reason,

there was maybe a little bread crumbing,

right?

Um,

Because if you truly care

and you have the space and

you've healed your blocks and everything,

then you will change for that person.

You just will.

And if they're not and they

say all the right things,

even in those difficult

conversations and maybe

they get emotional and they

come up with excuses and

they convince you that

oh, maybe I was a little too hard,

but nothing changes and

you're having that cycle

repeat itself and getting

to a point where you don't

even know if this cycle can be solved.

that's still abuse.

That's, that's basically lying, you know,

and saying that,

that you will change and

there will be an improvement.

And if there's not,

that's also something you

obviously have to,

to look out for where that

might not be as, as obvious.

And it's not an outright,

like you're calling me out.

I'm defensive.

It's a no.

Okay.

Yeah.

You're I'm so sorry.

I've been busy.

Um, I will, I'll make this happen,

but if nothing is changing,

that's still something that

you have to log, you know?

Yeah, and I like that idea of logging.

You know,

it's like I'm not going to make a

rash decision about a

relationship just based on one single act,

right?

But I'm going to observe what's happening,

and I'm going to take note,

and I'm going to reserve

that action for maybe a

later time until I have more information.

But each interaction informs

our next interaction, I think.

Yeah, absolutely, absolutely.

And maybe a quick thing

before we go is I would be

cognizant and aware of,

because a lot of our

audience are former Mormons

or they were raised in high

control religions and so forth,

if you're still pretty fresh

of going through such a big

change like that.

For example,

with rehab and overcoming that,

they say don't get into a

serious relationship for at least a year.

And I would second that,

whether you're still with

your person or you've left

the church and you want to

get out there dating.

I would just really caution

you to figure out who you

are a lot more and maybe

uncover these things.

Because from my experience,

when you do it and you're

in a committed relationship,

it can be really, really hard.

And there's certain things

that you haven't been able

to uncover yet.

And that's why it's always

good to take your time.

So that's my little advice

for maybe former Mormons or

people who have just

decided then they're

heavily deconstructing to

be careful because it's

really exciting to find

maybe like a non-Mormon or

someone who has this

different perspective and

it is intoxicating and exciting,

but you owe it to them and

you owe it to yourself to

take your time and learn to

love yourself and learn this new you,

you know?

Yes, for sure.

I think that's that's such a

good point is that if

you're deconstructing your

entire worldview,

you don't know who you are

anymore right now.

And if you don't know who you are,

you can't really engage in

a relationship in a healthy

way because you're just

going to be sort of sliding around.

So.

Dr. Romney actually says,

if you're coming out of a

narcissistic relationship,

if you've been in an

abusive narcissistic relationship,

she says, take a full year, no flirting,

no texting, no dating, no nothing.

Take a full year, meet yourself again,

and then re-engage.

And I totally agree with that.

Um,

I think when you're deconstructing

religion, it can be like you say,

really tempting to like

jump into a new

relationship with somebody

who is the opposite of who

you would have chosen in your old life.

Right.

Um, but there again, if your,

if your worldview is majorly changing,

then you don't know who you are yet.

And it's so important to,

to sort of have some

foundational boundaries and

some foundational values

that you choose for yourself.

But it's important to know

what those are before you

go out there in the world

and start interacting with other people,

especially attaching to

other people when you have

no idea how that's going to

affect them or you.

Yeah.

And with all this

deconstruction you're doing, you know,

an example of leaving the

church is now you have this huge,

we'll call it a void,

that you now get to fill

with learning to love

yourself and learning who you are.

Yeah.

there's no need for dating

or any of that um just just

learn about yourself fill

fill this void fill this

new found space you have in

your soul and and fill it

with with figuring out

things you love or figuring

out things that you want to

work on yourself like

there's all the time in the

world for that and um that

that would be my advice

because i i think i i

I jumped in too quickly and

it wasn't a good thing.

And I wish I hadn't.

I wish I had taken more time.

Yeah.

Well, that is great advice.

Thank you so much for

unpacking this with me.

I think this is going to be

really helpful to a lot of people.

I think a lot of people are

scared of the dating scene

because they're scared of

encountering a narcissist

and maybe not knowing what to do.

So hopefully this gives

people a little bit of a

framework of little things

to start looking out for.

Nobody needs to do anything drastic.

right now, you know, just small,

small little things to look

out for little changes and, you know,

little tiny, you know, tiny movements,

not drastic actions.

Yeah.

This is an exciting time

where a lot of shifts are happening.

And so enjoy the shift with,

with yourself and

discovering that and friends and,

and growth.

And, and then, you know,

you trust in the universe.

If you're, if you're doing what you should,

you'll,

Everything will, you'll get who you need.

You'll get what your heart desires.

And there's just, there's no rush.

And I think after the

deconstruction part and all

of this awakening is really,

really fun to be able to

just focus in on yourselves

and do things like this and

find new hobbies and

discover things you never

would have before because

you have an entire new

world to go explore.

Yeah.

Yeah.

It's exciting.

Remind us one more time what

your Instagram and TikTok handle is.

Awakening expansion.

So awakening underscore expansion.

YouTube is awakening

expansion and Instagram is as well.

All right.

Well,

I'm really excited to see more of

what you're going to do online.

And thanks as always for

being so generous with your time.

Of course, Megan, always a pleasure.

And we will chat soon.

All right, take care.