Shownotes
In this fascinating episode of "Money Talk With Tiff," host Tiffany Grant chats with special guest Jordan "Doc G" Grumet from the Earn & Invest podcast. They delve into profound discussions about life, death, and finding financial independence beyond the dollar amount.
Doc G shares insights from his journey from medicine to content creation and discusses key concepts from his book, "Taking Stock."
About Our Guest
Jordan Grumet was born in 1973 in Evanston, Illinois. After graduating from the University of Michigan, he received his medical degree from Northwestern University and began practicing internal medicine in Northbrook, Illinois. He is currently an associate medical director at Journeycare Hospice.
After years of blogging about financial independence and wellness, Jordan launched the Earn & Invest podcast in 2018. In 2019 he received the Plutus Award for Best New Personal Finance Podcast and was nominated in 2020 for Best Personal Finance Podcast of the year.
Connect with Doc G
Website: https://jordangrumet.com/
Twitter (X): @earnaninvest
Facebook Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/earnandinvest
Connect with Tiffany
Website: https://www.moneytalkwitht.com
Facebook: Money Talk With Tiff
Twitter: @moneytalkwitht
Instagram: @moneytalkwitht
LinkedIn: Tiffany Grant
YouTube: Money Talk With Tiff
Pinterest: @moneytalkwitht
TikTok: @moneytalkwitht
Timestamps
[00:00] Offering positivity and comfort in the face of death.
[05:20] New approach to financial independence and work.
[08:51] Self-actualization, purpose, and identity in life.
[12:24] Fear of losing money outweighs goal achievement.
[14:58] Financial independence doesn't guarantee happiness, wealth concerns.
[17:34] Podcast, purchase links, upcoming book on purpose.
Key Points Discussed
- Transition from Medicine to Content Creation: Doc G explains his shift from practicing medicine to embracing his passions as a content creator and writer, focusing on the satisfying work in hospice care, which he continues part-time.
- Perspectives on Hospice Care: The conversation sheds light on the positive impact of hospice care, providing comfort and dignity in the final stages of life—a perspective that enlightened Tiffany while reading Doc G’s book.
- Philosophy on Regrets and Life Review: They explore the importance of addressing regrets and conducting life reviews, not only for the dying but as a practice we should adopt early in life to live without regrets.
- Financial Independence, Retire Early (FIRE): Doc G discusses the evolution of the FIRE movement from stringent saving to a more nuanced approach incorporating passive income and side hustles, emphasizing that financial independence should involve enjoying the journey, not just the destination.
- Maslow’s Hierarchy of Needs Revisited: The conversation critiques the traditional view of Maslow's pyramid, suggesting a more integrated approach to achieving self-actualization alongside financial and emotional fulfillment.
- The True Role of Money in Happiness: They debate the commonly held belief that happiness increases with income, discussing how real contentment comes from purposeful living rather than financial accumulation.
- Overcoming Fear of Financial Loss (Loss Aversion): Doc G provides insights into how fear of losing financial status can lead to unhappiness and restrict living a fulfilled life, regardless of one’s wealth.
- Purpose and Identity Beyond Money: The episode ends with a preview of Doc G’s upcoming book, "The Purpose Code," which tackles finding one's true calling and living purposefully.
Recommended Actions
- Consider conducting a ‘life review,’ regardless of age, to align daily actions with long-term goals.
- Rethink financial goals as tools rather than endpoints to truly live while you climb.
- Embrace a balanced approach to finance, allowing for enjoyment and responsibility simultaneously.
Resources Mentioned
This podcast uses the following third-party services for analysis:
Chartable - https://chartable.com/privacy
Transcripts
You know what it is. That's right. It's time to talk money with your money
Speaker:nerd and financial coach. Now tighten those purse strings
Speaker:and open those ears. It's the money talk with tiff
Speaker:podcast.
Speaker:Hey, everyone. I am so excited because I have Doc g on the line
Speaker:now. Doc g, if his name sounds familiar, he's a regular on the Stacking
Speaker:Benjamins podcast, and he's here to talk to us about
Speaker:kind of fire and then his book taking stock, which
Speaker:will dive in, of course, but. Hey, doc g, how are you?
Speaker:Hey, Tiffany. It's so great to be here. I'm looking forward to this conversation. Yes.
Speaker:I'm so happy to have you. It's been a long time coming, so let's just
Speaker:hop right in. Right? So, first and foremost,
Speaker:when I got your book and I started reading, I was like, what? I
Speaker:had no idea what you did for a living. So let's start with that.
Speaker:I feel like it's really important to set that groundwork for the people. So
Speaker:what is it that you do for a living? You know, it's funny you ask
Speaker:that, and five years ago, the answer would have been very clear. I'm a doctor.
Speaker:Interestingly enough, as I've made my own journey, I actually don't identify nearly
Speaker:as much as a doctor as I do a content creator and a writer. But
Speaker:technically, I am a trained physician. I practiced for about 20 years, and
Speaker:towards the end of my practice, I realized it wasn't filling me up. And so
Speaker:I got rid of everything I didn't like in the job. The one thing I
Speaker:still like doing is I was doing part time work as a hospice physician. I
Speaker:was leading some hospice teams, and that work really lit me up. So I decided
Speaker:to keep that part of my professional identity, but that opened up all sorts of
Speaker:space to go and live my life the way I wanted to and kind of
Speaker:pursue other things. Yeah. And, you know, somebody listening is probably like,
Speaker:hospice lit you up, you know,
Speaker:just to let people know if they don't know. Hospice is when you take
Speaker:care of people that are in their final stages of life. And when I
Speaker:was reading that in the book, I said, oh, like, this is a cool
Speaker:perspective, because not a lot of people have that perspective.
Speaker:And one thing that you hit on in the book is that most people are
Speaker:scared of dying. Yeah, people are afraid of dying. And it is
Speaker:a wonderful thing. And this is why it partially lights me up, is people are
Speaker:told, quote unquote, there's nothing we can do. The tumors
Speaker:advanced too much. The heart failure is too bad, the emphysema is too
Speaker:severe, and we get to come in and say, well, it's true, we can't stop
Speaker:you from dying, but we can certainly try to make every day look as positive
Speaker:as possible. We can help you with your goals. We can make you
Speaker:comfortable. We can make sure you're dying in the place you want to die, whether
Speaker:that's at home or in a hospital or in some type of hospice care
Speaker:facility. And so we have some control to actually
Speaker:help people to palliate this most difficult time of their life. And
Speaker:so that's why I always feel like it's a very positive thing because there's so
Speaker:much we can add when people are pretty much at their lowest. Yeah.
Speaker:And with that being said, like, were there situations where
Speaker:people told you, like, oh, I regret doing this, or,
Speaker:you know, I wish things, like, were better? In this area of life,
Speaker:we actually. Ask people about those things because once we control their
Speaker:symptoms and get them where they want to be, a big part of what we
Speaker:also do is help people with life review. So theres a series of questions we
Speaker:can ask them that helps them go through this life review. And a big part
Speaker:of that is regrets, so they can come to terms with both the good and
Speaker:the bad in their life. And thats a very important thing as
Speaker:you get closer to the end of life. I love that. I love that. And
Speaker:to your point, that is super important because when you think about
Speaker:it, sitting there and you know that according to the
Speaker:doctors, you may not make it. You know, you have a finite
Speaker:amount of time, and you kind of know when that time is coming. I can
Speaker:imagine, like, you would be sitting there like, wow,
Speaker:like, is this the end? Like, is this really what it has come
Speaker:to? And I love that you all take that extra step
Speaker:and have people go through that life review so that way they can
Speaker:come to terms with anything that has gone on in their life. And
Speaker:imagine if we did the same thing with young people when they weren't dying. Like,
Speaker:how much time could we actually have to then realize these things,
Speaker:work on them? And then when we got to our deathbed one day, we wouldn't
Speaker:have those same regrets? And so that's kind of a big message of the book,
Speaker:is like, look, the dying are telling us this really important,
Speaker:valuable information. We need to listen to them. Yes, for
Speaker:sure. I'm like, I need to do a life review today
Speaker:and just make sure that I am, you know, where I want
Speaker:to be in life. So I'm going to switch gears a little bit, because in
Speaker:the book, you really focused on fire. I mean, in the introduction, you go
Speaker:over, you know, what is fire? So why did you decide
Speaker:to focus on fire and also tell the audience what fire
Speaker:is? So I come from the fire community. That's financial independence, retire
Speaker:early, and it has actually evolved. But originally, what this idea behind
Speaker:fire was is that you could kind of front load the sacrifice, work really
Speaker:hard, grind it out, maybe not even enjoy what you're doing, and get
Speaker:to some net worth number which would then support you for the rest of your
Speaker:life. And so you could then stop working, and then you could really build a
Speaker:life of purpose and identity and connections. All these things, I think are really important.
Speaker:This idea was that you actually put those things off, you front loaded the
Speaker:sacrifice, and then once you got there and had enough money with great
Speaker:investments, you could do what you wanted to do. Now, that has evolved over
Speaker:time. That was kind of like that older version. The newer version looks at
Speaker:things like passive income and side hustles. These help us get to
Speaker:fire faster, right? So instead of some big net worth number, maybe we're actually
Speaker:looking at just making enough money with our side hustles to cover our monthly
Speaker:needs. And so you might have to wait 10, 15, 20 years to get to
Speaker:this big net worth. Maybe you create passive income or side hustle that can
Speaker:do that sooner. And in a way, I'm actually even
Speaker:a little bit more contradictory. I actually say that if you love your job and
Speaker:you come out at 22 or 23 and you're doing a job you would do
Speaker:even if you weren't being paid for it, because you love it so much, in
Speaker:a sense, you're financially independent right away if that covers your monthly needs for
Speaker:the rest of your life. Now, granted, you might be working to your 70 or
Speaker:80 if you're not putting anything away. And I would actually look at my
Speaker:book, I wouldn't say my book is anti fire, but what I kind of say
Speaker:is that in my book, we really get to this idea that if we're
Speaker:only looking at financial independence as our main goal,
Speaker:maybe we're looking at it a little bit wrong. And instead of focusing on money,
Speaker:we should focus on what that money is meant to do for us. And so
Speaker:can we start taking these messages from the dying and about regret and
Speaker:living the life they wanted to live and try to integrate those into our life
Speaker:now, regardless of where we are with our net worth? We, of course,
Speaker:all want to save for retirement. We all want to get a high net worth.
Speaker:We all want to hit financial independence, but I always tell people, I don't
Speaker:want that to be the thing you're waiting for before you live life.
Speaker:Amen. Amen. You said a whole word right there. Because
Speaker:I had to learn that lesson myself. I was an extreme saver,
Speaker:you know, debt free by 30. That's how I started this whole brand. And I
Speaker:was like, gung ho on getting that done. Now,
Speaker:I realized that, Tiffany, you know, you're working yourself to
Speaker:death. You're pretty much overdoing it. You're on overdrive
Speaker:and not really enjoying the fruits of your labor at
Speaker:all. Like, I was just so gung ho on saving and paying off debt.
Speaker:And so it wasn't until, honestly, like,
Speaker:2020 or so, where I was like,
Speaker:I need to start enjoying stuff. And I think the realization.
Speaker:Part of that realization was seeing people, so many people
Speaker:dying. We were in the midst of COVID and everything
Speaker:to the point of your book, and I was like, oh, my gosh.
Speaker:I don't want to be that person where I die. And
Speaker:I finally make debt freedom, but I've never experienced
Speaker:anything. So I started focusing more on experiences,
Speaker:which leads me to the next thing that I wanted to talk about, which is
Speaker:Maslow's hierarchy of needs. So to start us off, if you
Speaker:can just explain what that is. And that plays a role with our money.
Speaker:So Maslow had a theory about our needs. And
Speaker:specifically, he built a pyramid, which was a hierarchy, and
Speaker:he started at the bottom with the basic needs, right? Food, shelter,
Speaker:and kind of built up through things like love and the more ephemeral ones. And
Speaker:eventually, you get to this peak of self actualization.
Speaker:And so we're all kind of trying to build to the peak.
Speaker:What my message in the book is, is maybe this
Speaker:idea that it's a peak and you only can get to one
Speaker:level after you finish the first one is wrong. And maybe we need
Speaker:to level the whole thing, because I don't want to wait until
Speaker:I'm financially free to start living the life I want to live. I
Speaker:want to start doing that now while I'm building my financial life, while
Speaker:I'm building my relationships, while I'm doing all of these other things. So
Speaker:I argue that we actually have to flatten that pyramid. And
Speaker:those of us who wait till we get to that self actualization place
Speaker:may really miss out on all sorts of purpose and
Speaker:identity and doing great things. And so this is what I saw in the dying.
Speaker:I saw plenty of people who never got their basic needs covered but lived
Speaker:these full, loving lives surrounded by people who
Speaker:cared for them, and they died, maybe even in poverty, but with a smile on
Speaker:their face, holding their hands of their loved ones. And I also saw people who
Speaker:had the richest of the riches who died alone in hospital rooms because their
Speaker:family members were too busy and honestly didn't really care.
Speaker:And so I think we have to work on all levels
Speaker:at the same time. And I think, for instance, not
Speaker:having some of the money issues settled doesn't mean you can't get to the self
Speaker:actualization. And so while I love the theory,
Speaker:I think in real life today, we can't look at it
Speaker:as hierarchical. We really have to work on them all. Yeah, and I
Speaker:agree with that as well. And that's one thing I talk about on the podcast
Speaker:and with my clients. You know, a lot of times, this or
Speaker:that thinking, so should I be saving
Speaker:or investing, or should I go on this trip
Speaker:or pay off my debt? And for me, I feel like it's more of
Speaker:an. And, like, we can do both. We can do all the things,
Speaker:actually. We don't have to just focus on one. And, you
Speaker:know, I blame, you know, the big financial gurus. We don't have to name names
Speaker:here, but the super big ones with the big
Speaker:loudspeaker. And they're like, you have to do this in this way.
Speaker:You're not doing it right. And for me, I'm like, you know, there's
Speaker:so many different ways to do this. And I like to
Speaker:now enjoy while I'm getting all of these things taken care
Speaker:of for that reason. Now, with that being said, there's
Speaker:been huge debates on social media about what, how
Speaker:much money makes you happy. Right. So there's people that are
Speaker:in the. If you make less than 100,000, you know, it's
Speaker:impossible for you to be happy and survive. And meanwhile, I'm like,
Speaker:well, I know people that make way less than 100,000, and they're
Speaker:extremely happy and they're surviving. So what are your thoughts about that? Because
Speaker:I know in the book you talk about, does more money make you more
Speaker:happy? Yeah, and I have lots of thoughts about that. In the book. I talk
Speaker:about this saying that money is like oxygen, right? So when you
Speaker:don't have enough money, all you can think about is having more, and you don't
Speaker:have enough oxygen, you're gasping for air. But once you kind of
Speaker:have what you need, having extra oxygen doesn't help you. And
Speaker:I think money is very similar. And this also gets back to this idea
Speaker:that money is really a tool, not a goal. And so when we're basing our
Speaker:sense of happiness on how much money we have or what our net
Speaker:worth is or what our yearly income is, we're trying to make it into a
Speaker:goal, and it doesn't work very well. And there's a few reasons it doesn't work.
Speaker:One is if you get there and you get to that net
Speaker:worth or you get to that salary, because it's only,
Speaker:it's like what I call a mirage. It's a goal we've set. But that goal
Speaker:doesn't really deeply mean anything to us other than a number on
Speaker:the page. And so then it feels disruptive, and we're not
Speaker:sure what to do. And the easiest thing is to just double down and say,
Speaker:we need double the money, right? So a lot of times, getting to that goal
Speaker:doesn't actually solve any problems. In fact, it makes us feel anxious, and then
Speaker:we just set a higher bar. So we're always chasing after this
Speaker:bar, but never really reaching what we would call any level of happiness.
Speaker:The other possibility is you get to that level, let's say a million dollars is
Speaker:your net worth going. You get to a million dollars, you become petrified that something's
Speaker:going to happen. The stock market's going to change, you're going to have some type
Speaker:of emergency you have to spend your money on, and you become petrified you're going
Speaker:to fall below your goal. And so your fear of going
Speaker:back down is actually double what your fear of ever was of getting there. And
Speaker:that's called loss aversion. So I think our problem is that
Speaker:when we talk about money and happiness, we start thinking that
Speaker:that money actually gives us happiness. So if we just get to
Speaker:that place or a higher place, we're going to have more happiness. What most of
Speaker:us realize, and what I also learned from the dying, is that really, it was
Speaker:never the money. It was those deeply purposeful things that they
Speaker:did, those relationships, those hobbies, those much
Speaker:deeper things they were interested in that actually brought
Speaker:contentment or actually moved them in that happiness set point. So we all figure we
Speaker:have some kind of happiness set point. Maybe a five or six out of ten,
Speaker:if you want to get to a seven or eight, it's that deeper work. And
Speaker:usually having more cash just doesn't do that. Yes,
Speaker:I completely agree. And I want to back up to that loss
Speaker:aversion because that hit home for me.
Speaker:Like I said, when I started this, I was on this debt free by 30
Speaker:thing. I think at the time when I started, I was in the negative net
Speaker:worth or what have you, and so I had all of these goals
Speaker:attached to my finances. When I started coming up on
Speaker:30, I was like, oh, no. Like, I didn't make it.
Speaker:Like, people are gonna look at me crazy. It started giving me a lot of
Speaker:anxiety around hitting this goal at this time
Speaker:when I should have been focusing on the journey
Speaker:to get there versus hitting that actual goal.
Speaker:And so towards the end, I started realizing that when I realized I
Speaker:wasn't gonna make it, I'm like, okay, I need to shift my focus. But
Speaker:with what you said, I'm like, I should have thought about that
Speaker:sooner because I did miss out on opportunities. You know,
Speaker:friends are like, oh, let's go here. Let's go on vacation. Let's do this, let's
Speaker:do that. I'm like, no, I got to drive for Uber and Lyft today. It
Speaker:was like, gung ho. So I really like that you said that,
Speaker:because that's so real. Sometimes goal setting can give you
Speaker:anxiety and cause fear when you really
Speaker:don't need that much pressure on yourself. I'm a firm
Speaker:believer in your timeline is your timeline, and so
Speaker:you do things when you need to do them, when you want to do them,
Speaker:versus all of these outside pressures. So, even listening to this
Speaker:podcast, you know, you might be like, oh, I need to set some goals,
Speaker:but do it on your timeline, you know, our. Timeline,
Speaker:and realize that meeting those goals won't automatically make you happy. And
Speaker:so, for instance, Brad Barrett and I did a joint
Speaker:podcast at the economy conference, and we did it live in front of a bunch
Speaker:of people. And I interviewed someone. And so, if you think about financial independence,
Speaker:we generally define financial independence as having 25 times your yearly
Speaker:spending, right? So if you spend $100,000 and you have $2.5 million
Speaker:invested, it's 25 times your yearly spending. You're financially
Speaker:independent. This guy had 35
Speaker:times his yearly spending saved up and invested, and
Speaker:all he could think about is, what if the stock market goes down? What if
Speaker:I have a big purchase? What if? What if? What if? And he was continuing
Speaker:to work and doing something he didn't particularly like and not spending time with his
Speaker:children because he couldn't step away from the money he was making.
Speaker:And those fears of loss aversion. So it's a very real thing, even for the
Speaker:very wealthy, who have millions and millions of dollars.
Speaker:This idea that all of a sudden something could change and they could lose
Speaker:what they have really drives this continuing
Speaker:behavior. And as you're saying that, I'm
Speaker:like, it affects people on both ends of the spectrum. You
Speaker:know, it could be people that are experiencing poverty
Speaker:right now, and they're thinking about, oh, I need to make more money. Same
Speaker:thing with people that are Uber rich and probably have more money than the average
Speaker:person, they're thinking the same thing. And so, you know,
Speaker:this conversation has been truly, like, eye
Speaker:opening for me and hopefully for the audience as well, because
Speaker:we need to start living. Like, if COVID didn't
Speaker:teach us anything else is that life is finite and you don't
Speaker:know when your time is coming. And so
Speaker:we have to take a hybrid approach. Of course, you know, you want to
Speaker:save. Of course you want to do all your financial goals or whatever, but we
Speaker:still need to enjoy. So thank you so much for coming on the podcast
Speaker:and talking about this important topic. And like I said, I highly
Speaker:recommend the taking stock book. It was super valuable to
Speaker:me when I was reading it through and just hitting on these points.
Speaker:Of course, we can't give it all away here on the podcast. So
Speaker:if people were interested in finding out more about the book or more about
Speaker:you, how could they find you? So the easiest way is to go to jordan
Speaker:grummet.com. That's j o r d a n dash u dash
Speaker:m e t.com dot. There you can see pretty much the three ways I
Speaker:produce content. One was a medical blog I started in about 2003,
Speaker:2004. It's still up there. I no longer write there. You can find the link
Speaker:there. The other is a financial blog called Diversify. And last but not
Speaker:least, where I spend most of my time, the earn and invest podcast. All the
Speaker:links are there taking stock. You can purchase it there, and you can learn
Speaker:soon about my new book called the Purpose Code, which will be coming out in
Speaker:January 2025, which begins where taking stock left
Speaker:off. I talk a lot about in taking stock, purpose, identity,
Speaker:and connections, and I got a lot of feedback saying I don't know how to
Speaker:find my purpose. So this next book really delves deeply
Speaker:into purpose and how we generally think about it wrong. Oh, you
Speaker:are speaking my language. And if you all were feverishly
Speaker:taking notes on that, I'll have it all in the show notes. So don't worry.
Speaker:I'll have all of Doc G's links there. So thank you
Speaker:so much for coming on the podcast today, and I really appreciate it having you
Speaker:on. Thank you for the great conversation. Bye.
Speaker:Thank you for listening, joining, and being a part of the Money Talk with TIFF
Speaker:podcast this week. You can check tip out every Thursday for a
Speaker:new Money Talk podcast. But if you just can't wait until next week,
Speaker:you can listen to previous podcast
Speaker:episodes@moneytalkwitht.com or
Speaker:follow TIff on all social media platforms at
Speaker:moneytalkwitht. Until next time, spend wise
Speaker:by spending less than you make a word to the money wise is
Speaker:always sufficient.
