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Honest Talk About Heartbreak, Dating and Relationships - Rob McPhillips EPISODE 14, 23rd July 2020
Why Is Online Dating So Difficult?
00:00:00 01:32:23

Why Is Online Dating So Difficult?

Most people find online dating frustrating and difficult. What is it that makes normally nice people behave so badly?

Transcription

Welcome to honest talk about heartbreak, dating and relationships, relationships. The podcast helping you navigate your path to happy ever after with your host Rob McPhillips from Make Relationships Simple dot com. 

What I wanted to do, I don't know if we're going to be able to do this with this many people and in break out groups, but what I'd really like to do is break out by gender. For generalizations purposes, there's more than two genders, but for generalizations purposes, we're going to break it out into male, female, into groups to talk about your if you're dating your frustrations and if you're thinking of dating but wary of online dating, your fears about online dating.


I'm going to throw out some breakout rooms, and so what we're looking for, if one person in the group can act as a secretary and we want to get a list of the male fears and frustrations about online dating and the female. Fears and frustrations of online dating. So we're going to go for... OK, so can we have a spokesperson from the men's group, please?


Okay, James, great, right? I'm going to mute everyone else. OK, OK, great. So can you give us an understanding of what went on in the men's room?


Laughter. Yes, what happens in the men's room stays in the men's group. Yes. Men's room, first rule of men's room.


Yeah. So it was mostly frustration's rather than failures. So beginning with this A common one is that we felt that like online dating encourages a very sort of disposable mentality, like a sort of candy shop attitude as well, like easy to sort of pass on someone and then move on to the next person if there's any sign of any sort of perceived flaw. And some guys expressed that they felt some women had an expectation or perhaps even an entitled attitude that they because the numbers are on their side, that there's vastly more men, male suitors to females that day than they wanted to be charmed, to be impressed.


And like on a date, for some, there's an expectation that you pay. Another one was that profiles give off like a misleading perception or showing herself to be a certain way, but then when you try to interact with them or when you do interact with them, that they're not how they're portraying themselves to be.


OK, can we just get into that a little bit more?


Yes. Well, I didn't put that point myself. That was just not communicating. I don't know. You said that or what? Yeah. Why what?


So you're the spokesperson, so everyone knows it didn't come from you. Are you able to put it?


Or I would imagine from the gist of it, it sounded like perhaps they come across this like quite bubbly and lively in their profile. So you think, oh, I could talk to this person. And then when you start to talk to them or send them a message, you probably get very curt responses if that and it's just like one word replies you like. I thought you were like, I'm interested in, say, photography, and you are as well.


So surely that's a commonality is probably. But you're not really we're not really talking here. It can also be another thing I've heard men complain about, it's sometimes women put. Pictures that are quite sexually provocative and then are like, why are you talking? And men talk about that as being a frustration.


Oh, right, yeah, I can see that. Yeah. That maybe they put themselves that it looks like they're. For a bit of fun or something? Yes, sometimes there's a mismatch between the portrayal on the profile and then like in a conversation, sometimes men take it the wrong way and.


Oh, yeah, yeah. OK, so what else?


Sorry, I just want to rattle them off as quick as I can. Another one was. As a man that feels like even when there's a mutual match, it's up to you to sort of take the initiative to initiate the conversation. And if if a conversation sort of dies down a bit, it's up to you to send the first message again, to keep things keep the ball rolling. A frustration was that women certainly have a lot more choice and opportunity than men.


So you're competing against all your fellow brethren, you know, and with some apps or sites that definitely seems to be a pay to play or pay to win sort of option to sort of get ahead, like perhaps on I think somebody said, Bumble, if you if you're not sort of paying sort of boosts your profile because there's so many matches, you'll easily fall down to sort of the bottom of the stack. If you if you're not boosting yourself up there, see if you even if you mutual match it, that can sort of disappear.


I think that's common in Tinder as well. OK, yeah, yeah, so basically the problem is that dating apps are misleading and try to make you pay. Yeah, but the way that they make you pay is it tends to be free to women. And men have to pay to get accesstraveling, you know, send messages.


OK, another one with lazy profiles or very subtle ones, like I like travelling, eating out and the and watching film, but who doesn't. So and when there's always this thing like don't send boring messages like first messages. So when you try to look into their profile for something to start a conversation, there's not much to work with us.


I bet women I bet all the ladies on the call are kind of itching to be able to retaliate for that.


But we're going to get to I guess there's a reason. I want I want to go with men first and I want to get out. They said we're going to wrap it all up. So, yeah, this is a big one. So it'll be a woman with a picture and basically no text and then she'll say or say ten separate messages, her own reply.


Yeah, that's really cool.


Yeah, there's another frustration. It's like how many profiles of real or even current. Okay, so some of them like bots, some of them like even like prostitutes or just looking for like a marriage, someone to marry just to come over. I think that's perhaps more on the other side. The free site probably got plenty of fish or something. Yeah, it's something there's there's a whole network of a lot of dating sites, one actual company, and they're basically the same answer.


If you're on one, they put you on all and they do set up profiles. And there's thousands of of profiles that aren't actually real. But, you know, someone's been on and can't get rid of their profile.


Yeah. It's sort of held dormant just to make numbers. Yeah. And then I guess the only sort of final thing was for Thayer's. It's just so feared of the fear of being sort of scammed or taken for a ride, maybe like a out of money or like just even for free mail or something.


OK. Yeah, yeah. Yes. So basically it's the fear that they're not really interested in you. Yeah. But you're going to go out and you're going to like Internet bill, you're going to pay for that night out and then they're going to go home and someone else or whatever. Yeah. OK, right. Thank you for that, James. Was very brave. OK, OK.


Do we have a brave from the lady? A brave. Participant from the ladies group Chantel. So I'll start with the frustrations, I'm sure that sounds like there's going to be a big list.


It's a balance. So I think a sense of this, like a sense of urgency from, you know, from can we can we and I know this probably didn't come from you and we can assume it didn't come from you.


If anyone wants to add in the chat, you know, anything that you want to add, they're happy to admit to, then. Yes, to elaborate. So the urgency. In what sense?


So from the first conversations. Hello. How are you to see this like a rush to get on the phone in a rush to meet and then maybe a week later it could just come to an end. So it's like a kind of a rush of sense of urgency from then and then. The next one was a sudden rejection, which is just like after a week of fast pace, you know, moving it, something suddenly just comes to an end.


'And you're not really what I'm looking for' sort of statement or even ghosting ia another frustration as well. Where the person just disappears. But we we kind of I think when we was in the group, we talked about it a little bit and kind of came to an understanding of where I think we should be taking it and asking far too personal questions. We just just start talking to somebody like, you know, how much do you weigh? Things like that! Yeah really subtle.


Some say, boy, this is difficult and so it is rejection and abandonment, abandonment. Again, I guess I come down from the posting phase again that many of the men are married as well, whose identity we're not sure who's real, who's fishing, who's scamming, who's trying to manipulate women. And somebody else has a fear of not finding what she really wants. Yeah. And look. Does anyone want to comment on that now? Anyone? Just a me self, if you want to, it's sort of the male female around Iva.


You is some of that stuff is true to real life as well. Oh, I met somebody on POF years ago, they call it off. You don't show plenty of fish. Um, but she was already known to my friends and family anyway, so I already knew the person Reifler. I lay down the line. Yeah, one of a few issues was something somebody else was willing to spend more money on the. And and following up with one of the male comments was.


That person was willing to shower them with gifts and treat him to the level of pay, after all your drinks, I'll pay for your nights out. But I'm not saying it works both ways. I'm just saying and obviously this is personal to myself, but I think sometimes you can be the financial. OK. He says, you know, it could be the way it's why you say I'll devote two nights a week to say, well, I got this president so still I can treat to to the level I can see.


Five nights a week. And that's what they want. OK, so so in your personal experience, is that what she said or is that your interpretation? No, I know verbal, she told me it wasn't the only issue, but one point she said, this guy never lets me buy a drink. OK, is she still chatting to me and I've been saying it for a couple of years, but it was and it was getting very rocky and then I found out she was chatting to somebody else and one of the remarks was Elative and let's buy a drink.


He treats me, basically treats her like a princess and.


He told the nation that was one of. OK, does anyone want to comment on that or.


Yeah, I think I think a lot of experience of someone in a yeah, I feel like one woman said to me, are you the man?


You have to impress me.


So it kind of sounds like an obviously, you know, that's just this person that just kind of it sounded like there was a mentality or a mindset of like which is a bit traditional of life. So according to its traditional gender roles, you're the man. So you have to do certain things. And and I think also maybe there's something about some some women feeling, well, if it doesn't pay for the drinks and I don't feel valuable or if he doesn't come back like Prince Charming and do all this stuff and I don't feel valuable.


And maybe that's accentuated in the dating scene. So I think yeah, I think some people, I think is about a sense, having lost someone. I'm sorry. I'm really worried about being branded a horrible, sexist and generalizing terribly.


So this I'm just saying this is what we would have get to hear. What we've got a chance is that this I don't think any of us know each other in our everyday lives.


So we have the chance. So as men, we have the chance to hear what women really fear or what really their experiences. And and as women, we have you have the experience, the chance to see what men experience, because it's this difference of opinion and these feelings of like grievances and feeling like you're being taken advantage of that causes dating online dating to become a toxic environment.


So, Leslie, I think you had your help.


And yes, I would say that if the men are noticing that some women are asking to be paid for and I think it's really up to the men to think, do I want to be with someone who expects me to pay? And if you don't, then you should just say right from the very beginning, the boundaries is everything. I mean, I would never expect men.


I always get. But I'm on a good income and I can do that, but I think men need boundaries around what they are prepared to give and what and to receive, actually. I think there is layers underneath that, and I think that is. I think it was Ben said or was it that but I think it is about feeling valuable more than the money and there may be some examples of some women that who are like, yeah, I'm just going to go for the most money.


But I think it's that in the most part, I don't think that's the issue. I think some might throw it back in your face because they're trying to you know, there's already other problems and they're feeling angry.


OK, so I'm not sure was anyone else about to say something? Can I just say something?


Yes, I'm just kinda interesting article, but no, I'm taking notes all the time. But it's really interesting how the women have kind of gone to that next level of when they get into the relationship and the fear of that relationship. Whereas the guys are very it's like getting to that relationship from the guy's point of view and all the lying, the fake profiles. And, you know, we do live in that. I mean, I'm of an older, different generation to some, as we all are on this one, the whole women posing provocatively and giving off one image versus another just to get dates and stuff.


It's that sort of just not in my generation to be like that. But I can understand how difficult it is for guys to say this whole gangsta rap sort of thing going on, like they should be treated like princesses and everything. But it's just really interesting to see the difference in where women are coming from in terms of being emotionally hurt. Very quickly, we all went straight for the emotionally being hurt, being scammed and finding out that they married online and not understanding whether they're married, whether it's a completely different profile, all that kind of mistrust side of things.


It's very interesting.


OK, I think. Yeah, I think it is. And I think what you've really picked up, Jacki, is men and women have different problems in online dating for men, for men, it's brutal. At the start. It's like the rejection and the level that how hard it is to get a date for women. It's brutal later on because a woman can get a much easier than the man. But it's harder to get a man that she can trust in the relationship.


That's right. So, you know, there's different issues. And I think the frustrations and the fears relate to that. Okay.


So what I think might be useful is, does everyone know what the deal is?


Everyone knows what the frustrations of the agenda are. They got a fairly good idea from looking all both sexes, one for me to say at some point you want be the only person to talk to and the only person they're interested in at some point, that's what everybody wants. Do you find out at some point when you start getting interested in somebody you want, say you don't want to pay for drinks with other people, whether with the romance interest, that's for both females and males?


I don't want to hear that. Somebody says, oh, yeah, I went for drinks with somebody on Friday. What were you tonight? Well, it really is quite early because. That's a tough point. Yeah, I oh, that, as I can imagine, again, you don't want me going out for drinks with somebody tonight at some point, what do what do I know about there's going to be a second date.


Well, I'm not saying I'm a player. I'm just trying to say I can understand on the open side at some point. Well, I went to work. Some guy asked me how, but I've already got a date tonight. At what point did he say, I've got to say no to the other offer? OK, Laura has got something to say. Let me let me Laura, you need to arm yourself.


OK, so like the thing that really strikes me because I'm not like I've never done online dating, so it's really illuminating. But like, what's the difference between online dating, online dating and like video games? It's like too much of a game. And really, when you're talking about relationships, I always think I support authenticity.


You're looking for somebody real. You're looking for somebody to hang out with you, looking for somebody who interests you.


You can talk to and yet, like dating online seems to encourage game playing.


And that's that's what kind of worries me a bit.


It's not where the game that you can I can I really just echo that.


I really I really agree with you, Laura, very strongly. I feel like it's almost like you get into the mentality of, you know, women or men are competitors rather than potential people to relate to it.


Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I this is why I wanted to do the split because. So you have an understanding of what's on the other side of the screen. You know, when you when you're chatting to people, you know, is this key conflict that creates that kind of environment where there is no trust, where there is people become disposable.


Rob, hiya.


I joined a little bit late, so I was part of the men's men's room.


But, you know, it's very good to hear, like, everybody's like the other side's frustration. But I don't know really how to use that because personally, like, my key frustration is like.


You know, I really craft my messages are we look at the profile and fire up the message and you spend time on it and I you know, I never get answers back and that, you know, after 20, 30 messages you send just like, you know, what the hell, I'm just leaving, you know, spending and and and I appreciate the frustration and, you know, finding people boring or whatever, but it seems like, well, what can I do or what have I got to do more?


How can I use this information?


I mean, I feel as as Jacqui said, this is like the problem is I don't get the data in the first place. I don't get a message in the first place. I don't know how to use these information really from the women's side.


OK, I just want to. Yeah. So we get into the frustrations so that we get an understanding. And then I'm going to wrap it up of how you can use that and what you can do.


So, Sergio, I you to yeah, it's a different time period, you're going to reply to all of us later and I'm trying to understand what, you know around other women were saying that about, you know, the reaction and and these sort of things. And I hope you don't take it personally. I think it's probably the case for many men that you need to do a lot of messaging, Scandal was saying before and to get a response.


So quite often you find yourself talking to three or four women the time and and, you know, things are evolving. And but I always wonder at which point you need to sort of stop talking to them. You tell them this and I'm talking to someone. Something's developing. I'm going to start talking to you because that would be honesty. But they're not sure if this is something you guys want or like would be too harsh. I think we will.


Get to that and now I think what we what would be good is if we go back into the same groups, so male, female. And. Tapes. So what we want to talk about is advice, tips and what you would want.


The opposite gender to nine. What they would know in order to. Have more success to create that kind of connection where you can be honest and have that level of trust. So is everyone clear on what the experience of the agenda is and your the discussion is taking that on board, how can we make for better experience for each other?


How can we create that trust and that connection? And what advice would you have for the other agenda? It is very clear when you say better experience, you still mean within the context of.


Yeah, yes. Okay, so given that constraints and so the toxicity that we experience is because we're going into an environment where people have been hurt by other people because because there is that lack of trust.


There is that people treat each other as commodities, people playing these games, which then leads to people getting hurt, which then you're bearing the brunt of the hurt someone else had from other people.


So understanding that, how can you create the trust, create the connection so that you don't you're not messaging someone thinking are the same five other people or are you going to be dumped as soon as someone with a, you know, someone better comes along? So do we have a spokesperson or spokeswoman from the woman from the women's group? Again, I would say if I lost connection with one of the other ladies, you might want to jump in that I've only got a few tweets.


So if I missed anything, feel free to jump on. OK, so mainly what I got before I lost connection is that we feel that. Men need to be honest and up front in your profile, say exactly what you're looking for. Be really clear about what you're looking for. So if you're not looking for someone who expects to be treated like a princess and have everything paid for, that will definitely repel the princesses. If you believe that you're not a you're not looking for someone like that, you know.


And also not to take the rejection. Personally, because even if it is just how the person. I won't try to tell you just how the president kind of communicates how they're feeling if they reject you the same way they rejected, you don't do exactly the same thing. Somebody else and everybody. Anybody else. Let's jump. That's what I mean.


Do you mean from that? Like a woman's face, like, you know, like you see far away. You Smikle, you're not my type and then I'm not playing.


So if I can jump with you with further analysis of the end of the conversation that we actually said is that it was it actually goes for both genders. Is that is that rejection? Is that you will take a big question. You OK? But it's like the mix of your skin. Sometimes it's not your stuff. It's just so much. So if you could the delivery answers or the boy doesn't want to talk to you anymore, it's part of the game.


But we should deal with ourselves up to my touch. That's what we do. We got to do that. It's just part of the game. It's not pleasant, but we shouldn't be ourselves up. That sometimes doesn't just work and thinking, oh, I got rejected. Why? What have I done? It's done and learn something. And we go on. And this is for both genders. You. Yeah, and more specifically, I'm just going to say this to the ladies is.


What a lot of women get is they're afraid to reject someone, say, like, thank you for the message, but I'm really not interested because you can get some men that send some vitriolic and horrible, like, really emotionally laden vicious attacks. Wants to experience. OK, can you repeat that? I didn't say OK, so so what can often happen is mankind so beautiful, so beautiful. And then let me say thank you for your message.


But you know, you're not my type Perdig√£o, your fat bitch anyway. Ugly.


And that's why and that's why many women that don't reply back.


And it's like if you reply that if you're not looking for your look into this or, you know, go on, even if you don't reply, you are doesn't want to take of a message. So what do we come that, oh, you don't like me, you should be yourself. But this is where I go with the rejection. If I have to send five messages, no reply to me. OK, fine, but don't let me move on.


They don't they don't owe me a message back. Actually, we got this just because I like some of the we have a lot of little common interest and I message the amazing message and the reply back to me that enough he doesn't know me. No explanation. But for women, it's like, damn if I do, damned if I don't, I don't reply to you. I'm not like you. I again, you are rude. In the real world, when people get rejected, we tend to speak to our friends, we share it and we get sympathy.


Online dating and doing this, you tend to be in your own little silo. So a little rejection becomes magnified, I find. And you take it onto yourself because you're not sharing it with anybody.


So I think it's important to remember that even though you're doing this with this virtual person through a camera or whatever, that you do have your friends and your support group and that you do need to have some encouragement, somebody to say, really, you're not you don't pay him any mind and he's just being harmed. But we know that you are you're really a nice person. Some support I am, I find can dampen that kind of rejection. I've been told that I'm too arrogant and I think that what I want is just whatever.


And I don't want anything I said, but I really don't want anything. I just want to be a good friend to talk to if something happens is fine. But I can't tell you from the day I meet you that I know that you are the one I don't want in the real world. It doesn't happen too much screen.


Oh, yes. Sorry, I just I just wanted to highlight that for men to understand why women were so reluctant to respond.


That's a good point. Nancy made me remember that that has happened to me a couple of times for saying, well, actually, a lot of what I'm calling that was an agency. He sent me an obvious cut and paste message. So I just said that it was like a cut and paste message about maybe you should come up a bit more original. And it was just like one message after another about how so this color and that color was like, wow, okay.


So yeah, it's them.


Yeah. It does make it more difficult than when you're speaking to other people or something like that's happened, because I still think it's still if that has happened. So it's so close to be able to communicate well, to talk to people afterwards. And so because that not everyone's the same. So it's not fair on the ones who are not doing anything wrong to get ghosted or not get a decent reply or whatever.


But what I found in talking to and talking to men is. Well, I you know, I talk to women and I hear this, and then I sit in like a men's room, and what often happens is men really are struggling because we grew up in a patriarchy where we were supposed to be in a certain role and we were sort of had the advantage.


We're growing up in a generation where there's more equal. And so what's happened for the first time probably in our own history is that women have overtaken us in the job market. So there's a lot of men that are struggling to not compete, but to have some sense of status in that way. Then on online dating, where formatters is rejection, rejection, rejection, rejection.


And so a lot of men are having this sense of failure that becoming very bitter, that there's some really poisonous beliefs and a red pill fairy and men go their own way and all this that are playing on men and telling them that women and men for money and all these kind of things. And so what you get is someone who's sort of depressed or whatever, and they can't tell you that. And I just spew out this horrific vitriol. And, you know, to someone like you may have been someone who's really, you know, you know, sorry, I'm just not interested.


And it's like another rejection and. It's not personal to you, but that level of frustration means that you get this horrific abuse, which you don't deserve. So I wanted to highlight that, just so people understand there isn't it isn't anything personal because you're going to feel like if you get that message, you're going to feel like it's an attack on you. And it's really the person. It does. It does.


But what it is, is there is there is a lot of people that. It spoils it for everyone to use, and yet this is what creates a lot of the problems. Now I want you to be able to understand each other sites.


So we need to develop a sense of able to protect ourselves. And the first sign of an abusive statement, just block that person. Don't hope that it's going to go further for me. If I get something that is really not nice from from somebody, I'm done. It was nice talking to you, but this is not going to go any further. Goodbye. And I'm done. I block you end off because I.


I get very, very upset when I see another statement that's escalating our quarrel or are really being so abusive to me. It's not I'm not going to allow it. So to me, I have taken maybe Mr. Prince Charming, I'm getting rid of him in the process, but once he says something that is just really not making me feel very, very comfortable. I thank him and I'm gone. I think one way of looking at it is, is actually it's a good thing.


So there's a level of anonymity that comes with dating apps, even though you're showing your name in your profile. And unfortunately, that level of anonymity means that people behave in a way that they wouldn't do in real life. But it just means also they show their true colors pretty quickly. And if you think about these apps, less of dating apps, their introduction apps, because that's what they are. They're not you know, you're not actually dating on them.


You're being introduced to someone and then you work out whether you want to date them off the basis of their introduction. So if I see the introduction there, a bit of a prick, then you've just done that quicker and you can get rid of them. And I think, yeah, that's probably a good mindset to have you go into it. Yeah, I think I think that's exactly right, Sanjay, because what it does is it allows you to filter and the process of dating successful dating is really about filtering.


But before we move on, was there anything else from the from the latest group or I just wanted to add, you know, every time we got, like, these little wounds from dating people and then the accumulate, we need to be able to take time out to heal them. So we're not using our profiles just to sort of light our frustrations because it just repels the right people. And because I just I read some profiles. I'm just thinking they're just sort of run in about all of the bad experiences they had in day.


And just like so I have no friends, which is a shame because there could be something behind that profile that is a decent person yet. So not to use your profile to add. Frustrations, I think that's probably true for women as well a lot of the time. Yeah, I think that was one of the one of the points. There are women will have this list of, you know, their frustrations or men to list out all the things that they have found wrong with their whether they had relationships with.


Yeah, I think you should ever be negative on your profile and your profile is to advertise who you are and what you are offering, and if you get certain messages from certain people and maybe you can change the wording of your profile, but don't go negative because like Sasha said, you're not going to appeal to the right person. You're going to miss them. I've certainly seen lots of girls that it's just a long list of things they don't want, but nothing about who they are.


I'm not going to bother trying to come up with a kind of message to them because have nothing to go on. And it just seems like they're a very negative person, which might not be the case, probably is just that they've had a really bad time recently on these apps, which Kechiche consider whether that's the right out for you.


Yeah, yeah. I think trying to trying to be positive about yourself, but being being authentic as well. I mean, you're not trying to. Yeah. You're trying to attract people, but you're also trying to show the good parts of you, which is. Yeah, that's kind of personal attributes and qualities and looks as well. But it's about giving people kind of a fair picture of you.


I saw somewhere where a gentleman was justifying writing a book. He was six foot two. And his his his thinking was the girls all like Toulmin. So to attract them, you need to put something that is going to draw their attention so anything over six foot should do the trick. That's his thinking. But he was like five, eight. And you know what happens when you shoes when he turned out for the day? Yeah, exactly.


What's the point?


Yeah, I can say that people might be investing too much in these initial meet ups. You know, you are basically fishing to catch fish that you want to go with. And personally, I would not date someone without seeing them online and hearing them live online. And also I meet halfway and I wouldn't go more than a 15 minute drive. And the first meeting would be a coffee or a walk in the park in a public park. You know why?


I think it's really crazy to if anyone's doing it, I'd really, you know, just challenge any bigger investment in that. I think I think that's a good point. Like I said. Sorry, I was going to say it depends what level of person you know to guys, because it's each to their own, because somebody will beat somebody for a drink the first time around. I've done it the first time I've actually. Visual indexable gumbo, and it's quite a public place, and I'm at an X one spot, should you be fumbler, although again, it's a about line, but already.


Yeah, Metzer in the past. All right. Yeah. Yeah. But again, as to what level, because Boleyn's quite a public place sometimes quite. Although it could be quite public places. But again, I met somebody the first time once and Botsio did you before I started you be sister. So I got to know the level of trust already from that. But last time I spoke to somebody through Facebook, first time limited. Let's go.


Bowling is somewhat quite casual, so I don't think that's serious. Let's go. Personally, I used to a rule I wouldn't I wouldn't have a meal on the first. I don't eat on the first time, but I don't wanna be sat there while some is chewing the food while we're supposed to try to have some type of conversation. Right.


We saw them life and you had and interact with them online before you met them in person, not through a video call, but she was a friend of a friend of mine from the phone.


I think there's also a slight difference in my ability to call people. I think there's a slight difference between males, females in. There's a joke that women's biggest fear in.


Making an online diet is that it's going to turn out to be an ax murderer. Men's biggest fear is that she's going to be overweight and it's it's really about. Women typically have more danger to be aware of, whereas most men, if there is more danger, then they're not as aware of it and they're not feeling that danger. So there is that element behind the difference. So I just want to quickly go anything from the men's group before I'm going to try and wrap this up.


So from the men's side, it was we basically got wrapped up in one point, which is essentially women should send more messages, I think initially being more proactive, sort of taking the driver's seat or just in interactions. And that would help with some of the guys sort of confidence levels and also just confidence and sort of self-worth. And I guess that, yeah, they're they're interesting or someone wants to talk to them. OK, there's any we'll just give that a chance to see if any of the ladies would like to comment on that briefly or if not, that's fine because we can move on.


I don't know that there's a lot of research to say just just because of how history has evolved and stuff that women do. So if men are supposed to approach women, I think that's changing now. And women are being called out to sort of approach men more often and stuff like that. But I think maybe going back to the point you made earlier about men being rejected more often because they're sick of being rejected, they want women to make the first move, maybe more often.


So they still have rejection then because the woman's on this approach?


Yes, definitely. Yeah. I think it's a bit of all of that. And I think definitely the roots of all the problems are in patriarchy. And we will look at another meeting about the difference between men and women, but that's basically set up the communication problems and which is then come out indicting. So I'm conscious of it.


We can damn quickly another thing about both of them. So this is something I was discussing with a friend a week ago, is that so many women are so it's so easy for you to compliment another female and make them feel so nice. Men don't usually get this. We don't really compete with each other, that we don't get a nice buck and we really want this so that if you want to be the guy for the for the love of God, do it because we do what we want to that not good people as well.


I when I realize that it's easier for a woman to get more comfortable than even for a girlfriend than the guys. So I get why why I get why, guys, they like more issues, more different issues of concern to women. Yeah.


And also what what what I think one of the frustrations that men will probably notice is that there are women that have been knocked, the confidence has been knocked out, and so they get on online dating to get attention. And so that attention and validation so boosts their confidence. And that can be behind some of the you know, like there was a period after a breakup and someone like a woman who lost their confidence, she can instantly get a boost of confidence by telling how beautiful she is and how she wants to go out.


And there are women that that's the way that rather than Hill, that's the way that they're going to get feel better about it. And at that time, they're not really into a relationship there. That's when they sort of plamen off against each other. And so then other women who are in a different place and then then bear the brunt of it.


So I'm conscious of time. So I'm just going to go through some of my ideas about dating to to share with you and some facts. So what's really interesting is, Sasha, you are talking about women should should message more.


Definitely the single best thing women can do for themselves is the message more so if you look at this. So the percentage of first messages, like thirty percent of the time when one of the messages, a guy, she's going to get a response, whereas for a man is that's like 12 percent. So, yeah, definitely. Okay, so where are we? Okay, so basically what it's about and apologize to apologise to them, and this is quite sexist because it was done for a single women's program.


So you can if you can use the different language. It's basically the same same idea. But basically the quality of partner is about these. Five of the partners that you get in a relationship is based on these five. These are the five key skills. So on the better level, less anxiety you can have and more love and enjoyment you're going to have from the relationship.


So I can't remember who said, but I mean, go back and he said most people do take dating too seriously if I can just move this along the way. So, yes, basically, you're going to be lots of people that are interesting to you. There's going to be a certain subset of that that's going to be interested in you. And again, the difference between men and women is going to be a lot more men that are interested in a woman who's interested in them than vice versa.


Then there's going to be a certain amount that you going to meet and it's going to be a certain amount you're going to die. And then it's ultimately going to be one that you can. Have dated and want to commit to. So really, this this FREAKLEY skills, the mindset, the mindset that you go to, you go into dating wave, which is the biggest the biggest key, there's how you message in terms of your profile, in terms of your message, and then it's who you're choosing to message, which is the match.


And so when you get all of those free, that's when you develop the connection and the connection that can lead to a relationship.


So we can look at the problems of why dating doesn't work as being freaky, freaky reasons.


What we've talked about most of that is about people who aren't emotionally ready. It means that they've got unrealistic expectations in terms of the response that they get is matching what they are hoping for, a lack of emotional foundation. They haven't healed and not emotionally stable enough. And for a lot of people, dating is an emotional roller coaster because you get someone that sends your message and it's exciting and you think he's the one and then suddenly they disappear, which is I think what people mentioned is one of the frustrations.


And then people get hurt by that. And because they're they're hurting that, then give up and give up on it for a while and sort of give up and then they start again.


And so it's really important that you have the emotional foundations to be ready to die because it can be brutal.


So then it's about your message and if your message is unclear of tone. So.


One of the frustrations that the men's group talked about was was not having a profile, you know, having no basic text in the profile yet a lot of women don't want to put don't bother to text because it seems like men don't read it, because if if the woman is attractive to the man he's going to message and his men aren't going to because there's so much rejection and you have to send so many messages as I think it was Carlyle or Sergio says.


So what happens is insufficient to copy and paste, which then leads to a woman getting a message and going, well, this is just copy and paste. There's no real connection. So it's a problem with the messaging.


It's a problem we're pitching of understanding the level, being able to to start a conversation or connect and not filtering. So the key to successful dating is filtering is knowing. Is not being emotionally invested, but all we are looking for is yes no. And the relationships get messy and when people get hurt, is is on the maybe is that someone maybe a good relationship?


You know, people who get into relationships with people who aren't emotionally available, as they call it, because they're really and they're hanging on white and people wait years. Well, maybe they'll be ready if this happens and that happens. What you want to get to is either yes or no and not be emotionally invested in either of those. And then it's about connection. It's about realizing that people are there's more you know, there's more to people than the profile that they are a real person.


So. This one should come first, so basically all of us, we're people, we've got feelings this like who we are at the core, there's our fears.


And then around us, there's our sense of identity, which is like the social masks that we we socialize for.


We we give people this image of who we are rather than admitting to and being vulnerable to who we actually are and then our dreams that we have. And so the result of what you're going to get in communicating with someone depends on the level of connection that you're connecting with. So if you connect to someone's fears, you're probably going to get even hostile, anxious, or it's not going to be a smooth connection if you connect to their identity. It's going to be very ego based.


So women will often complain about men being like they're going to die. And all he talked about was his car and his job and how great he was at this and how this.


And so really what is about is a man who thinks that he has to impress someone, which I hope you can kind of get from men's experience that a lot of men feel that they have to they're in competition with all the other men and they have to prove that they're richer, that they're more accomplished than they have high status. And so a lot of dating is based on the level of identity and also because people don't want to admit what they really feel.


So there is the level of dreams, which is the level of possibility, and it's getting more. Again, you have to have something. You have to connect to that and you have to have someone who is willing to share their dreams. And then when you get into the core, it's about going really deep and that's when you can get a real connection with someone. So, okay, so I'm gonna give you five five. Of the things that I see most often is the problem is often there's an anxiety around relationships and people have a fear that they're always going to end up alone.


And because they're not sure that relationships are ever going to work out for them, what meaning this is that they're attaching so much to this time to this interaction. And because of that, the goal for them, once they meet someone they like, the goal is to make the relationship work and they change who they are and they change what they say. They change to try and please the person to try and make the relationship work. And so if you're doing that and really the goal, the goal of a relationship is to make your life better.


So the ultimate goal is to be happy. The relationship, the what we should do is date someone being ourselves, then being themselves. And what we want to get to is the truth of will that relationship work? Can we both be ourselves and the relationship work? And if that if that is, then that's someone that we can have a relationship with. But if we have to try and be someone else or if we have to use all these tricks and techniques to get someone's interest, then that's not a relationship that's going to work long term.


So a lot of the basic problems that we've got that, you know, people's frustrations we talked about, they come from the fairy tale model of the sense of for a lot of women that they are how culture has told them you're like value is how someone treats you.


And if so, if it feels like a man does want to pay, if it feels like he is not that bothered, then it feels like, OK, he doesn't really love you that much. And therefore that's a reflection on you.


So. Suggests to operate from the foot troops that we talked about last week, the other one is people are scared to get her. You know, people have been through some pain and they don't want to put themselves in that position again.


So, yes. So where we need to put our trust is first in ourselves, because if we know that we can trust ourselves, if we know that we can get over. Pain, we can get over a breakup and we know that we're OK and then we can be lied to about relationships. Now, a lot of people feel like a lot of people will jump into a relationship quite soon and they'll jump into a relationship and feel that because they're in a relationship, you should have trust and therefore they should trust the other person, although trust the other person without evidence.


Trust this is natural, is a natural thing that we trust when we know someone enough, but we have to know someone enough to trust them. So so who we trust is ourself, and then we look, we look and we trust based on the evidence, so that doesn't mean we go in with a suspicious but we know that we don't invest more than we can cope with losing and where we're going and giving every chance, but also giving someone the opportunity to show who they really are.


And seven point four is about Billye, dieting is not a quick a lot of people, a lot of people want to be in a relationship quickly and it's like there's a saying in project management that you can have quick, cheap and lasting, but you can only have two. And I think it's much the same in relationships, you can get into one quickly, you can get a satisfying or you can have lasting. And I think you can have two of those, but I don't think you can have all three.


And I think the one we need to be patient about the relationship and not jump into it too soon because so many people jump into a relationship because someone who seems great while they're dating, but five years later, they find that they're not the person for them. And some related to that is, I think that you should treat dating as a project.


It's it's a matter of. Knowing that you're going to find the one the one is out there and it's just a matter of. It's a matter of you being in your best self, because it isn't just about numbers, because you have to be in the right state, in the right place to be your best self so that you're going to meet the person who the right connection for you. But knowing that there's so many single people that it's what we do that determines the quality and the success of a relationship, not us innately.


And so it's about how can we improve? How we message who we met, who we talk to and ourselves, but we shouldn't look on a day a message, a short relationship as being key. You will see lots of people he won't write and you will have short relationships with people who aren't right, who aren't white. And so. I think when we're going to just check the check, if anyone has any comments on yourself, because I'm conscious, I'm talking.


What can I say something? Yes, I think I don't. I've just been obviously listening. I have not been on the dating scene at all yet because I'm just coming out of a long term relationship myself. But I'm just wondering, from everything I've heard, whether guys tend to be more practical. And so when they approach a relationship that they are perhaps thinking about the end position up front and whereas a lady would like to feel understand, you know, get to know the person a little bit before they make a decision based on their motorcycles thinking up.


She looks nice. She seems to talk nicely. Great. You know, let's just get on with it. And it's like a practical let's carry on, which then obviously creates the frustration with where she is thinking, well, hang on a minute. And I just want to get to know you. First of all, I want to feel something for you. First of all, I don't know. Maybe that is that which comes back to you to play the long game like this.


Yeah, I think there's this there's two things that I think the first thing is, is the women's group talks about a sense of urgency. And part of that urgency is the sense of being in competition and the sense that you need to be the one who's got the connection is not the guy who's who's first in to win. To win, win, win the woman. So I think there's that I think there's the sense of men having less messaging, less success, and I think also so I think there's that and a men maybe aren't saying yes to the relationship, maybe saying yes to the chance of sleeping with someone.


And they may feel that they need to say that they want a long term relationship in order to see that the woman will have sex with them. So there's some of that. There's and also it's about, I think generally typically for females, they sense more fear if they need to know someone because there is perhaps more danger. So I yeah, I think those points. Yeah, so I think there are.


Very various reasons, and I think some of those are. Did anyone else want to comment before we move on to. It's next bit. If I can just say I think that's a really good point that was made there and, you know, I think it was a really good, honest point that you made about men and how they sort of see the situation. And that's it for them and. I think what needs to happen is that, you know, and there is the old saying that the men will obviously think, you know, oh, this woman looks OK, that's what women do have to gain a trust because they're giving so much.


But I think maybe this should be a middle ground and, you know, and I think that should be recognized. So I don't think that women should stand back and not and wait for the man to come along with, you know, on a white knight in my arms. But I think it has to be a middle ground. So, yeah. And I think it's not detrimental to men that they do tend to think you did touch on something you said.


Oh, yeah, this is some really kind of mild sleep with a women say a lot more than that. We do want to see a bit more depth and they do want to get to know someone and that is how it is. So I think it should be a middle ground.


I would like to say something here because I think there is some some some sort of stereotypes there, because I've seen situations whereby where the context was was set up so that women were encouraged and felt free to to to ask men out more. And and these.


Typical roles of all, the woman wants to wait and and then they were starting to reverse, not reverse, but to even out and women were starting to be shocked. The men were refusing sex, for instance, offer for sex. So I really think it's a price on it for me. Is these this rush? At first, I don't know from women, but from myself. It comes from me, from insecurity and from frustration and and knowing, oh, I don't have I don't feel I've got many options.


So I need to close this one very, very quickly. Yeah. That's all.


I have something. I think it's very, very hard for me as a man to know when it's OK to sort of initiate without. I feel like I've been kind of like tarred with this brush as you're just you're just a typical guy just out for sex. But then I'll be in a position of kind of holding back a bit. But then things don't develop because I feel a lot women have accepted me as a man to initiate. So I feel I come in.


Yes.


Yeah, definitely. Yeah, that does. That's a common frustration for men. It's yeah. I think times have changed and men that really isn't clear for men. What's expected. Should they take the lead or are they being harassing. Well, that's where honesty and clarity has to come in from the start, because there's nothing wrong with saying what you want, because we all have an option whether we're going to go for it or not. So I don't think there's anything wrong with that.


We shouldn't judge people for what we want. Yeah, I think it's all about the honesty from the start. And then you can make a choice. And then if you can't blame anybody, if they've stated what we want. Yeah. Because you knew what you were getting into. And I think it's all about honesty and, you know, and trust and trust is scary. Yeah, yeah, I think I think a lot of men would be much more, you know, there are there are men, there are men and there are women that are there's a time when they want to play the field.


And I think men would be much more successful if they were just straight up men who didn't want a relationship and just just wanted something casual. If they were able to just say they'll clear and they probably have more success because there's a certain number of women. Not at that time. That's what they're looking for as well. And so, yeah, it's it's the lack of honesty and a lack of trust. They should have lie detectors on the sites where you can see whether it's a lie or the truth is you're talking.


Yeah, I think it only goes on a day after day should be made to do this workshop right through.


I mean, all people are asking for is on this day, how hard is that? Yeah, but then why is honesty so hard? Is what we talked about last week is the amount. It's not the communication. It's the it's the fear of judgment. And then also there's a reason why I went. I wanted the men to talk first because there is our society. There's much, you know, like men are the butt of the jokes because it's okay because, you know, men have had the advantage, you know.


And so there's a lot of pressure on men to not be honest. There's a lot of judgment. And so. Even in mixed groups, you know, we're lucky here, we've got men opening up, but that's the reason I had men's groups, was because without any women, there's just, you know, a different level of honesty that men can have. But there is so much pressure on men to look a certain way and to act in the same way.


So while I've got a teenage daughter and sorry, she you know, she's from a modern age where I spend a lot, it's been an eye opener for me. And I think I think you're right. And I think that's probably something it's more of a traditional mom where they probably feel they have to behave a certain way. And that's quite sad because women now have changed and rightly so and. And it's a shame that men do feel that they have to come across in a certain way because, again, it's all about honesty.


You know, perhaps that's because it's a traditional thing that men have to behave in that way and perhaps they don't anymore. They just need to come out with it. Yeah.


Yeah, we will. We will get into men and gender differences and patriarchy and what that and why that closes communication problems. But yeah, that is a big problem in dating. So what I've got here is basically something I think this is this is the way you really like when you're dating this before, during and after. And then that's how you are like. How you're thinking, let the emotion, the energy that you're coming across with and the conversation.


And so. Before it's really about being cool and just just not not taking it too seriously, I mean, basically dating apps are kind of like junk food for, you know, where you see a cake and you want a cake, you see, you know, a pretty girl or a hot guy and you start racing ahead and get excited. So it's just about being cool that knowing that everyone, everyone can and will have a relationship. And if they're in the right place and they know sort of the dynamics and how to manage it and they're relaxed about it and everyone will because they're just from the sheer numbers of people who are out there, we've never had access to more single people.


So everyone can have the relationship that they want, not necessarily with the person that they want, but that you have it with someone that they were attracted to. So it's about being cool and it's about being confident and confident, not based on this being a success, but about all this is is about to know yes or no. And then I didn't want to put clean because I didn't want it to sound like like no clean comes across as like non-sexual.


But what I mean by clean is honest, like you're being clear about what you expect that so everyone knows. So there isn't any problems afterwards because you've been unclear in what you've what you've said. So then it's just about staying calm and why wouldn't you be calm? Except that you've overinvested and you're investing in a certain outcome. The success is like you can never control what anyone else is going to whether they're going to like it or not. And so really, really, the success or failure of a relationship, 80 percent of it is set up before the two people meet, and it's in their blue blueprints of whether it's going to work or not.


And so the process of dating is to uncover that and to and to bring out that. So it's just been calm and the energy is just like dance. It's a dance back and back and forth. You don't have to impress anyone. You don't have to be a certain way because otherwise it's going to come out in a relationship later. And it's about connecting like this is the real key. People are always like, what do I message? What do I say?


It's about connecting. And the way that you connect is your interest because. We're not going to connect to everyone. We're not going to like everyone, but in all of us, the humanity. And if you can look beyond what someone looks beyond their profile, beyond even their attitude, beyond what they were young that and somewhere there's someone with hopes and fears and dreams. And if you can connect to that, it doesn't mean that you're going to date them.


It doesn't mean that you're going to be the one for them. But just to the level that they can will accept from you and the level that you want to engage with them, but just to connect to who they are. And then it's afterwards, it's just been clear it's being surrendered in the sense of not invested which way or how that it works, but just OK, let's let's see where it's going. And then invitation is if you're interested.


And just by to everyone who is going, that's. Thank you for being here, and the invitation is just if you're interested and just be open about it and I'd like to see you again and. And then just be clear with someone, I think I think how ghosting thing it comes. People don't want to hassle, but there's a level of honesty that we have to have in in people in order to have a relationship with anyone else.


We have to treat we can't treat people in tears like I hear some dating things of like you got a high value man on high value. Well, you want the right person for you. It's not about high value because otherwise what you're saying is, you know, some people are lazy and some people aren't. And but it's about. Connecting, connecting with people. And yeah, just just before we we sort of I just wanted to show you this as well, I forgot to show earlier, but it's basically how women write men.


It's how women write manageably one clear on a frequency. How women, right, men and how men, right women. And some men are quiet in terms of how they write women's attractiveness is quite stable across across the board, whereas women typically rule out 80 percent of the men. Which is which is another of the reasons why a tightening is quite difficult for men and and these are based on sort of superficial. As attractive, physically attractive as into those kind of factors.


OK. And I just want to tell you about I've decided after talking to everyone, I'm going to do a nightclub and a nightclub is going to be where we are, a club where. A small group of 6000 people will work. Together in terms of we'll go through how you build the how you have the mindset to today, how you build your profile, how you build out, how to message, who's message, how you feel to people, we'll work through the dating makeovers, as in everyone will have a chance of like here's here's my experience.


Here's what I want to do. Here's my frustrations and challenges. And then we'll will change the profile, change messaging and set you up so you're able to have more success. There'll be question and answers. And it's basically having a support team so that you can say, OK, this happened. How do I do? How do I deal with this? And so, yeah, that's going to be starting soon, so I'm going to send you some details about that.


So keep an eye out because there's only going to be 10 places because we want to keep the small group really small. Okay, so. I think I've covered. Yeah, covid that.


OK, I now run over time to check on it, but if anyone has any comments, questions or anything that they'd like to to say before we wrap up. Well, I think you got to. As you say, you have to be more comfortable in yourself and what you want before you can go out and look for others. If if you have. Emotional baggage, which all do battle scars, if you like, from previous relationships. I think one of the key things for me was actually realizing my own self-worth.


And once I did that, things became a lot more comfortable. It's not about I have to find somebody now quite happy to be friends with people. You know, I don't have to be in a relationship right now or tomorrow or next month. And if it doesn't happen, well, you know what? I've got a plan B as it happens, I can get it over and they'll be fine. But, you know, but but, you know, I think sometimes maybe people put pressure on themselves that they've got this kind of timeline.


I have to find somebody that is going to be my soulmate for the rest of my life.


And it has to happen like, oh, my God, it's been another three months and it hasn't happened.


Whereas I suppose I'm because I'm the time I don't know, maybe I'm not in that position, but I feel that I'm grateful for people that I see. And I meet I joined the dancing club because I wanted to the dancing and I thought that I gained a friend. And I think we will be lifelong friends. The fact that she is a woman, it doesn't really matter because she might as well be a bloke in the sense that, you know, we talk to each other and it isn't a romantic relationship.


It's actually a very good, friendly relationship. And it doesn't matter that she happens to be a woman, you know, and similarly to her, it's just we just talk and we enjoy each other's conversation. But I know that sometimes I think that that's the trouble. People go, oh, yes, I mean, whoever I tell or I talk to them like, oh, yeah, are you a woman friend? OK, so when are you guys going to be in straight away?


People assume that that's you know, that's the only reason why you talk to somebody, whereas I'm talking to her because she's she's nice to talk to.


Yeah. And I think sometimes people kind of forget that. Yeah. And they put pressure on themselves that there has to kind of proceed in some predestined direction and it doesn't have to.


Yeah, exactly. It's just connecting to the person, just connecting to the humanity of the person and then letting the details work out.


Because if you can if you can do that, you're going to connect and someone is going to be accessible, and I know that will probably be lifelong friends now, but just friends, you know. Yeah. Well, that was a conversation with. You know, I think you solve the problems now look like. Lawrence Norris going to talk. I'm sorry, Laura, you she's sorry. OK, so, yeah, I was just going to say, well, I started the session thinking online dating a complete nightmare and dreading it.


It's going to be awful.


And now I just feel really positive. It's not a walk in the park.


There are pitfalls, but actually it's fine.


Hmm. Yeah, it's all to do a really, really good outcome. Yeah, yeah, if you can win. If what we talked about last last week, the whole relationship, simple, if you if you go in with that mindset where you're not invested, we are not invested, heavily invested, and you can be relaxed about it.


And but what I wanted to separate the male and the female to understand why there's such a conflict, because if you can understand that and you can get past people's messages not taken personally and you can understand their frustrations and and connect and also for women, most women online dating. Okay, so I showed you that graph where they look at 80 percent of men as less attractive or unattractive.


So women typically are going for like the top 20 percent of attractiveness, the top 30 percent of intelligence, 64 or over often, and in a good stable job. And so what happens is six feet and over is fourteen point one percent of the male population. So you've come off like the dating market down to that when you go for the more attractive, all of those things. And none of those factors are things that relate to long term relationships, the initial attractive things that attract you.


But it's not about being kind. It's not about someone that you can communicate with and build a relationship. So, yeah, I'm glad you and Sasha did. You will talk about Santacruz book just quickly to.


I think Stanford is great on how people relate to each other and how that nervous systems like, yeah, just wanted to recommend it for day and it's really a really useful tool to go in today.


And with what what what what did you take away from it? And just relaxation techniques, Joran Day in people and stuff like that and. Yeah, can't really that's the main thing that's really stuck in my mind boggling loads for me is a really useful guide before a day. And I'd say it brings brings up a couple of points where someone mentioned earlier about. Oh, what was it I completely forgot. Completely gone for a very complex moment, you know.


Yeah, I don't think I've read the diking one. I've read I've got I've I've got a few of his own book.


I tend to. I don't find him the most interesting. I think what you've got is brilliant, but I find tactical. Yes, it is quite good by the his analogies, like the naval analogies.


And I gotten better actually. I can take in stuff more reading, but I have him on audio book. But yeah, I think his information is great.


I've read because I've read quite a few days in a marriage books and that's one really like because it really could hold out one. That's probably the most useful and practical I've found.


It's Stan. Stan taskin wired for Ditzen.


He's got quite a few wired for relationships I think is what it was when, you know, when people come in together. I think the guy that mentioned is gone now and how you kind of go in with that, you can't go in with the expectation that you've got to kind of go in with the expectation that they're probably going to be talking to more than one person. And you don't have to worry about that. He just connects with the person.


If there's something that eventually everyone's just going to fall off naturally anyway. So you don't really have to worry about all that sort of stuff. Yeah, and it's like lost. It's just like lots of just practical and about muscle relaxation. And so you come across as your authentic self rather than being anxious and nervous. And Olusola so.


Yeah. OK, thank you for that, Sasha, and anyone else questions comments before we. I think that's that's everyone. So thank you for being on tonight. Next week, we've got what I think is the free case or how to build relationships that simple. And I haven't set it up yet, but due to popular demand, the next one after that is going to be about breakup's. And I think even if you're not currently going through a breakup, that's useful.


I think one of the keys to being relaxed about relationships is knowing that you can get out of a breakup. And so I want to talk about some of the things that of how wide breakups caused so much pain and how you get over them. But thanks for putting up with the tech problems, hopefully will have a smoother ride next week, so have a good week and look forward to speaking to you next week.


Good luck to you guys. Experts say good bye to.