By definition a rainmaker is an individual who generates an unusually high amount of revenue for an organization by bringing new clients and new business to the company. 

Listen in as I talk with Matt Dixon, author of a new groundbreaking Harvard Business Review article titled What Rainmakers Do Differently! We break down the 5 Principal Profiles and discuss the Three C’s that can turn anyone into a Rainmaker

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Julie Brown:

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Matt Dixon

DCM Insights

Matt’s LinkedIn

For many of you.

2

You know, especially

listeners around my age.

3

The first time you may have heard

of the term Rainmaker was when the

4

film, the Rainmaker written and

directed by Francis Ford Coppola was

5

released in 1997 or when the book,

the movie was based off of written by

6

John Grisham was published in 1995.

7

By definition.

8

Uh, Rainmaker is an individual who

generates an unusually high amount

9

of revenue for an organization

by bringing new clients and

10

new business to the company.

11

Rainmakers outperform others in

the organization through their

12

ability to bring in new ventures.

13

And their contributions are considered

critical to the success of the business.

14

Welcome to episode one 70.

15

One of the shit works, a

podcast dedicated to all things.

16

Networking relationship building

and business development.

17

I'm your host, Julie Brown.

18

Speaker author and networking coach.

19

And today I am joined by Matt Dixon.

20

Founding partner of DC and insights

and coauthor of the groundbreaking

21

article and the most recent issue

of Harvard business review titled

22

what rainmakers do differently.

23

The subtitle of the article.

24

What rainmakers do differently is

business development and professional

25

services firms is outdated.

26

Here's what works now.

27

And I couldn't agree more.

28

Business development is outdated.

29

I work with a number of firms who

want to improve their business

30

development activities and identify.

31

Who within the office might have the

secret sauce or the it factor to become

32

a successful door seller or a Rainmaker.

33

If you prefer.

34

Well, lucky for us.

35

Our guest and his firm has done the

heavy lifting, conducting research

36

that has revealed the five distinct

profiles that define how all partners

37

approach business development.

38

Research that further reveals that

only one of these profiles has a

39

positive impact on the performance

and revenue of their company.

40

And that only 22% of the people

possess the characteristics that

41

make up this Rainmaker profile.

42

I bet you're curious to know what the

characteristics of this profile are.

43

So without further ado, let's

welcome that to the podcast.

44

matt-dixon_1_11-07-2023_100944:

Hey, Julie.

45

How you doing?

46

Thank you for having me.

47

Track 1: Yeah.

48

First I wanna thank you and your

co-authors, Ted, Rory, and Karen for

49

this research, which is so in depth and

so eye-opening, and as I mentioned in

50

the article, like the five profiles that

you've discovered, like how did you decide

51

that you wanted to conduct this research?

52

This was what you wanted to

spend a chunk of your time on.

53

matt-dixon_1_11-07-2023_100944:

Yeah, it was, it's kind of an

54

interesting, uh, background story.

55

Uh, Julie, so I, my background and as well

as, uh, uh, Karen and Ted, uh, we kind

56

of grew up as researchers at a company

called CEB, which is now part of Gartner

57

Group, and we were all part of the.

58

Business to business sales practice.

59

So we were serving chief sales officers,

chief revenue officers, heads of sales

60

effectiveness, sales enablement, you know,

uh, all the, all the industries were.

61

Sales is not a four letter word.

62

So it's basically like one minus

professional services, um, or, you

63

know, financial services as well.

64

So we're really focused on, um, serving

heads of sales in software, medical

65

devices, pharmaceuticals, logistics, uh.

66

We'd spent probably 20 plus years

studying what great business to business

67

sellers do, star sellers do differently.

68

We wrote a number of books on it, a number

of HBR articles, and one of the things I

69

learned really quickly, uh, is that, uh,

the doer seller world is quite different.

70

I remember, actually remember a, an

experience where I presented some of our

71

work from, uh, a book we wrote called

The Challenger Sale, uh, which was very

72

popular in business to business sales.

73

And I was called into.

74

A large consulting firm to present, uh,

the findings at the partner retreat.

75

Uh, this is going back like a decade

and, um, you know, two thirds of the way

76

through my presentation, the managing

partner kind of stood up and, and called

77

Time Out and asked me to stop talking,

which is a little bit unsettling.

78

Um, and I said, you know, I was gonna take

questions at the end, but please, you're.

79

You're paying the bills.

80

So go ahead, Um, and he said, you know,

you keep using this term sales and you're

81

talking about salespeople and selling

and, um, you know, all this stuff.

82

And what you need to understand is that

at our firm, we actually don't sell,

83

we don't use that term internally.

84

It's not what we do.

85

And, um, I, I said back, uh, in

response that, um, let's stipulate

86

to the fact that there's a mysterious

process by which the client's money

87

ends up in your firm's bank account.

88

And we're gonna call it sales

for the next 15 minutes.

89

I could just finish up my presentation

and everyone had a good laugh, but it

90

did, as I delved into it, and I kind of

continued to have these experiences when

91

I was called in by, you know, law firms,

accounting firms, investment banks.

92

Wealth advisory firms, um, PR

firms, executive search, um,

93

uh, partnerships that this doer,

seller world is quite different.

94

Um, a lot of things we talked about

in our previous work is how you need

95

to deliver challenging sales messages

that lead to your company's product.

96

But what if you are the product, right?

97

If the product is your own

advisory skills as a partner in a

98

professional services firm, that's

a very different ball of wax and.

99

As you know very well, um, partners

in professional services, it's, look,

100

it's tough to be a good salesperson

when sales is your full-time job.

101

Um, and we've learned that

over, you know, 20 plus years

102

of studying great salespeople.

103

It's even harder where sales is

a part-time job, and you've gotta

104

be responsible for generating

the business with your clients

105

and professional services and

then executing it with your team

106

is a very, very different motion.

107

Um, that puts a lot of

pressure on partners.

108

So I always had sort of.

109

Uh, kind of back pocket, uh, kind

of curiosity or or study idea to go

110

out and do a lot of what we've done

in B two B sales, but a, a sort of

111

bespoke clean sheet of paper, new

study of the do or seller world.

112

Um, fast forward to when

we founded our company.

113

Um.

114

Uh, two years ago, DCM Insights.

115

Uh, one of our partners, uh,

is a guy named Rory Chan.

116

Rory actually spent, um, four years

as Chief Chief Business Development

117

Officer at a big law firm, uh, McDermott,

will and Emery, uh, Enam Law 50 firm.

118

And at the time I had left cb, he

and I, he was a former CB guy too.

119

He actually hired me.

120

I was working at Korn Ferry at

the time, running their sales

121

effectiveness consulting practice.

122

He hired me and my team to come in.

123

Study what their top rainmakers

were doing at McDermott.

124

So it was our first time ever studying

doer sellers, you know, putting aside

125

everything we know about B two B sales,

but looking at doer sellers as kind of a

126

unique, um, breed, a unique population.

127

And we found some interesting

things in that study, um,

128

that just again, further, I.

129

Um, piqued my curiosity around what we

might find if we did a broader study.

130

So, um, we've had our company two

years ago, um, and we partnered

131

with, uh, Intap, who, as, uh, many

of your listeners know, is a big,

132

uh, cloud provider to professional

and financial services, uh, firms.

133

And Intap agreed to underwrite a

large global study of doer sellers.

134

Uh, so we, um, we embarked on that.

135

Probably about a year and nine months

ago, um, we scoped out the study.

136

We started recruiting

firms to participate.

137

And as you know from the article,

uh, we got, uh, 23 firms, global

138

firms and 1800 partners to actually,

139

uh, complete the study.

140

Um, we didn't get any hate mail from

partners, but it was a pretty long study.

141

it, it's a long survey.

142

The, the thing that we got a lot of

responses from folks saying, um, this

143

was a really hard survey to fill out.

144

It wasn't a simple I check the box,

kind of, you can blow through it really

145

quickly.

146

There were kind of forced

trade off questions.

147

It really forced partners to think

very critically about how they engage

148

clients, how they spend their time,

um, what tools and resources they use,

149

how they pitch for business, et cetera.

150

Um, it, it forced a lot of introspection,

I think, on the part of the respondent.

151

So,

152

Track 1: Mm-Hmm.

153

. What I . I thought one of the great

points of this article was a problem

154

in business that it pointed out,

which is that most businesses believe,

155

Hey, you do really good work and your

clients will keep coming back to you.

156

But your research showed that there's

a shift in the loyalty of clients.

157

Like,

158

matt-dixon_1_11-07-2023_100944: yeah.

159

Track 1: and so the shift is happening

and you're, you're prospecting

160

that it's going to get worse.

161

The shift in loyalty

is gonna get worse, so.

162

matt-dixon_1_11-07-2023_100944:

We actually, as part of the

163

study, we actually collected,

um, or we, we organized a panel

164

of a hundred c-level executives.

165

So these are, these are executives,

big companies that have, you know,

166

individually, decades of experience

hiring law firms and accounting

167

firms and investment banks and

search consultants and management

168

consultants and the like.

169

So if you edit all up, it was like

thousands of years of buying experience

170

with professional services firms and

partners, and we asked them, uh, a

171

series of questions, but one of the

most revealing ones was, you know.

172

If you had a new need that arose

and provided the firm you're working

173

with right now had done good work

for you in the past, would you be

174

inclined to just hire them again?

175

Would you just go back to

the, well, in other words, or

176

automatically go back to that firm?

177

We asked 'em to think about what the

response would've been five years

178

ago, what it would be today, and then

what it would be five years from now.

179

These respondents, uh, the responses

came back were pretty eye-opening,

180

um, 70, um, nearly three quarters.

181

It was like 73% of respondents

said five years ago.

182

Yeah, I would just go

back to those same firms.

183

So this was, you know, a, a time where

professional services purchasing Was

184

not really the domain of procurement.

185

It wasn't highly formalized.

186

Um, and, uh, you know, senior executives

could kind of put their thumb on the

187

scale for the firm or partner they really

preferred and maybe where they had a

188

personal relationship or they'd gone

to law school together with somebody

189

or business school or worked together

with the partner, their, um, who's, uh,

190

uh, you know, pursuing the business.

191

Today, that number is around half.

192

So about 53% of respondents said,

yeah, we would go back to the same

193

firms thinking out five years from now.

194

It's only about a third.

195

It's a slightly more, it's 37%.

196

And so this really is exactly

what you're talking about, Julie.

197

It's a degradation in the stickiness

of our client relationships.

198

Um, it is a more competitive environment.

199

We interviewed a lot of these

c-level decision makers as part

200

of this research, and what we

heard, um, was pretty astounding.

201

Many of them said, look, in the past.

202

Nobody really cared where, you

know, which law firm I hired,

203

which consulting firm I went with?

204

I could put my thumb on the scale.

205

No big deal.

206

It was a black box.

207

Today, everything is competitive.

208

Everything is a formal pursuit.

209

Procurement is involved.

210

And you know, for, um, fiduciary,

ethical, uh, legal reasons, I cannot be

211

seen as putting my thumb on the scale.

212

That's actually, we had people tell us.

213

Look, I, if I have a personal

relationship with a partner, I will

214

recuse myself from the purchase decision.

215

And we had CFOs and CHROs and GCs

and heads of m and a telling us,

216

you know, we are doing our firm and

our shareholders, our stakeholders,

217

our employees, a disservice if

we don't competitively bid out

218

each piece of business.

219

'cause we owe it to ourselves to

hear what everybody has to say

220

about our problems and our needs.

221

It, you know, we're kind of

shooting ourselves in the foot.

222

If we just go back to the same

partners we've always used, we

223

need to cast that broad net,

which then means the door is open

224

for you as a partner to lose that,

you know, longtime client relationship

225

because they're bidding it out.

226

Track 1: What would be an interesting

follow up study to this is in five

227

years when they, when client loyalty

is down to 30, you know, 33%.

228

If people are still as happy or if

they wished that they had you gone

229

back to their previous providers.

230

matt-dixon_1_11-07-2023_100944: Yeah, that

is an, that is an interesting question.

231

Will that all that shopping

around actually benefit clients?

232

You know, or

233

will they feel like

they've missed something

234

because they've not gone back to the,

the providers who really know them and

235

their firms and their teams very well?

236

Uh, that, that is a really

interesting, uh, question.

237

But I, you know, what's,

what's so interesting is I.

238

When we talk to partners, a I would

say the vast majority of partners

239

are very frightened by this prospect.

240

They say, this is, this

is not good for me.

241

And it's exactly for the

reasons you just articulated.

242

Julie, I've grown up in a world where if

you did good work, you, you didn't have

243

to compete for the next piece of business.

244

The client just

245

came back to you for, you know,

the next consulting engagement.

246

The next legal matter, the next, uh, tax,

you know, advisory piece of business,

247

they would just come back

to you automatically.

248

So it's frightening for the majority of

of partners, but there's a small segment

249

of partners who are pretty excited about

this and say, look, there are clients

250

that I'm looking to get in with, uh,

251

uh, stat, I think from, uh, Russell

Reynolds found, um, that a huge percent,

252

I think 20 to 30% of Fortune 500 GCs are

gonna retire in the next like five years.

253

Track 1: Yeah.

254

Oh yeah.

255

matt-dixon_1_11-07-2023_100944:

It's gonna put $60 billion of

256

outside council spend up for grabs.

257

And so these, you know,

rainmakers, these top performers

258

are like, this is great.

259

And, and these firms will, these

companies will not automatically

260

go back to the firms they've used

for years and years and years.

261

They're the door's now open.

262

I'm gonna get an invitation to compete

for it and I might win some of these.

263

So they're pretty, they're pretty

energized by this prospect.

264

Track 1: Yeah.

265

It's funny.

266

I do a lot of college and university

lecturing on networking and business

267

development, and one of the first

things I say to him is like.

268

Do you think everybody else

in this room is a dumb ass?

269

Besides you?

270

Like being good at your job

is the barrier to entry.

271

Now let's talk about all the things

that are gonna help you stand out.

272

matt-dixon_1_11-07-2023_100944: Yeah.

273

Yeah.

274

Track 1: Um, so as I mentioned, your

research found five distinct profiles,

275

which in my, in my experience in working

business to business we're spot on.

276

So I wanna dive into them a little bit.

277

The, so the.

278

For the listeners, the five

distinct profiles are the expert,

279

the confidant, the debater,

the realist, and the activator.

280

And one of these is the rainmaker profile.

281

So let's examine elite a, a little

bit of each of them, because I

282

think people will be like, yes, I

know who that person is in my firm.

283

Yes, I am that person in my firm.

284

Um, so great.

285

Let's start with the expert

because I think this is what

286

everybody strives to be like.

287

I'll just be an expert in the field

and everybody will come to me.

288

matt-dixon_1_11-07-2023_100944:

Yeah, it's, no, you're exactly right.

289

Um, so what, a couple thoughts,

just as I go through these.

290

I think one is, Julie, you're right.

291

The first thing that people do is they

think about themselves, um, and then they

292

think about their colleagues and then

they think about the, in their firm, who

293

are the top, some of the top rain makers.

294

Um, where do the people you

think are kind of doing it wrong?

295

What, what profiles they go into?

296

If you're a firm leader,

you're starting to think about

297

skylines, like, where are we?

298

Overweighted and underweighted.

299

Um.

300

Cautionary points.

301

One, I would say every single

302

a combination of all five.

303

However, uh, statistically every single

one of them majored in one of those five.

304

We all spike in one, right?

305

But people are complicated and

partners in professional services

306

are especially complicated people.

307

So they, so, you know, this is,

um, it's a messy, messy business.

308

The other thing I would

tell you is that, um.

309

This almost, I always say this upfront,

but it almost always comes back as a

310

question that we didn't study personality.

311

And I think when pe

when we go through this,

312

Sometimes.

313

people say, well, this feels

like you're born with it, right?

314

It feels like you, you just, you have

that kind of personality that will

315

put you in one of these profiles.

316

We studied, uh, behavior skills,

time spent characteristics, use of

317

tools and resources, uh, techniques.

318

So these are things that with

the right training, coaching,

319

um, and support from the firm.

320

Every partner can get better at.

321

Now, why a partner ends up in any

of these five is probably partly

322

because of their personality and

what they're comfortable with.

323

But, um, the profiles themselves did not

have personality based characteristics

324

to them.

325

Uh, if that makes sense.

326

So, back to your question.

327

So the expert, uh, first profile here.

328

Um, and, and, sorry, one more

One more piece of background.

329

So the way we did, not I,

this is really important.

330

We didn't invent these,

um, these profiles.

331

So this is a, we use a technique

called factor analysis.

332

Factor analysis looks at a large data set,

it washes out the insignificant variables,

333

then it isolates the significant ones.

334

And typically in a large model,

uh, the data ends up clumping into

335

groups and those groups move up

and down in the model together.

336

So if you have something in the bucket,

you tend to have the other things.

337

If you lack something, you tend

not to have the other things.

338

We've used this technique in the past.

339

I mentioned the challenger

sale research in B two B sales.

340

And this is the second

time we've deployed this.

341

Um, and I actually think it worked

better in professional services than

342

in the B two B sales study we did.

343

So the first one, um, that the

model identified is the expert.

344

The expert I would describe as

a reluctant business developer.

345

So this is the person who would

tell you, look, Julia, I didn't go

346

to law school to be a salesperson.

347

Right?

348

Or, you know, I didn't.

349

You get my degree in, uh, in tax

accounting to be a salesperson.

350

But we all know when you make partner

in a firm, you're expected to bring in

351

the business, not just execute on the

business as part of the job, but because

352

they're reluctant and, and arguably

uncomfortable with business development,

353

they take a very reactive order taker

approach to business development,

354

meaning they try to signal to the market.

355

If you are looking for, let's say, an

at like, um, an IP litigation expert

356

in pharma, or if you are looking for an

m and a advisor, uh, in, uh, consumer

357

packaged goods, I am your person.

358

So the way they signal to the outside

market is through thought leadership.

359

They do a lot of publishing.

360

They do a lot of speaking at

361

conferences.

362

They serve on industry panels and things

like that, and what they're hoping is

363

that if a client has a need that aligns

with their expertise, the client will pick

364

up the phone and call, or they'll send

365

an email and say, Hey Julie, we gotta,

you know, I, we found you in our search

366

for an IP litigation expert in pharma.

367

We have a matter coming up.

368

We could use your, uh, advice on this.

369

Now, what that means in practical terms is

that by the time the client has found you.

370

They've probably found several

other people who also claim to be

371

an expert because nobody, like you

said, there are not a lot of dummies

372

out there, and there are a lot of

people who claim to be experts in,

373

in very, very specific niche areas.

374

Nobody owns a domain unto

themselves, and so they get pulled

375

into a lot of competitive bids.

376

So that's our first, uh, profile is

377

the, is the expert.

378

Track 1: The second

profile is the confidant.

379

matt-dixon_1_11-07-2023_100944: Correct.

380

Now, the confidant, the confidant,

I think the best way to think

381

of them is as the classic kind

of old school trusted advisor.

382

And what I mean by that is they now, and

this is probably not to the letter of

383

the book or ha as it's described by the,

the creators of that model, but rather.

384

The way that it's interpreted by partners

in professional and financial services.

385

Um, meaning what they do is they,

they kind of find a small group of

386

clients, maybe three to four key

clients that kind of bear hug those

387

clients, they they bend over backwards

388

forum.

389

Many of these clients are clients that

they had preexisting relationships with.

390

So we went to law school together, went to

391

business school together.

392

We worked in the Corporate

development, um, uh, department

393

of a Fortune 500 firm together.

394

Now I am the partner

and you are my client.

395

Um, so these are

longstanding relationships.

396

They have.

397

They bend over backwards to these clients.

398

They deliver very client-centric,

a very client-centric experience.

399

They deliver a great work product.

400

Um, and their mindset is, if I

do all those things, what I'm

401

effectively doing is building a moat

around this client that makes it

402

impossible for anybody else to steal

403

the relationship.

404

And I should be good.

405

If next time the client needs help,

they're gonna come to me automatically.

406

It shouldn't be a competitive pursuit.

407

And so I basically build these

ATM machines and then I stand

408

by it and collect the money.

409

Right Now, one of the other, uh,

interesting rubs about the confidant

410

is because they've invested so deeply

in these relationships and because

411

they cannot afford to have any of

them, um, uh, go south or go sideways.

412

They don't share those relationships

413

with their colleagues internally,

so they don't collaborate,

414

they don't make referrals.

415

I had one, uh, uh, chief marketing

officer of a big accounting

416

firm said, I know these people.

417

These are the people who call me up every

month and say, why did my client get the

418

firm newsletter without my permission?

419

Like,

420

how did they even get the client's email?

421

You know,

422

Track 1: Yeah.

423

matt-dixon_1_11-07-2023_100944:

and they don't put any notes

424

in the CRM system again,

425

Track 1: Yeah.

426

matt-dixon_1_11-07-2023_100944:

they cannot afford for somebody else

427

to come in and, and screw it up.

428

Track 1: Yeah.

429

Yeah.

430

I, I worked construction for

17 years, architecture and

431

construction for 17 years.

432

And there was a lot of this that the,

this is my client, I take care of

433

matt-dixon_1_11-07-2023_100944:

It's my, yeah,

434

that's right.

435

My is is used often by the

436

by the Cond.

437

Track 1: I, I think the most, the two

most I saw in, in, in architecture,

438

engineering, and construction

was the expert in the confident,

439

sort of side by side together.

440

matt-dixon_1_11-07-2023_100944:

You're right.

441

I think those two, actually I think

it's a really good point, so I don't

442

wanna skip ahead, but if you look at

how they distribute by sub-vertical,

443

which you can talk about like law

versus accounting, um, those are

444

the two that dominate the landscape.

445

So, um, so you are a hundred percent

right, and, and when I talk to firms

446

about this, they either say we are

over without even doing the survey or,

447

or having any data to support that.

448

Say they just know deep down

we're overweight and confidants,

449

or we're overweight and experts,

450

but it's very rarely we're over overweight

in one of the other three, which we'll.

451

Track 1: Yeah.

452

Yeah.

453

So the third one is the debater,

which I found interesting.

454

I actually didn't recognize this

profile in anybody that I saw, so

455

I'm, I was curious about this one.

456

matt-dixon_1_11-07-2023_100944: Yeah.

457

So the debater in.

458

Maybe un charitable words of their

colleagues would be described as a, uh,

459

sharp, elbowed, opinionated know-it-all

so that may describe a lot of partners out

460

there, but these folks, so their, their

MO with a client and, and so these

461

folks, you find a lot of these folks in

industries like investment banking or,

462

you know, you do find a big chunk of

them in places like executive search.

463

And I think the reason is that, um.

464

These are spaces in which the fees

are the same across all the firms.

465

The assets that an, an investment

banker, uh, would represent or be

466

able to sell, you know, uh, on your

behalf or, um, to you are pretty open.

467

Just like an executive search.

468

Like we all have the, every

search consultant has the

469

same Rolodex of candidates.

470

It's a LinkedIn, right?

471

There's nobody, like, there's nobody

where from this is my candidate, right?

472

Um, and so these folks end up getting

pulled into a lot of competitive bids.

473

So you do find this debate or approach

where their goal is to come in and

474

say, I'm gonna box out every every

other player who's competing for the

475

business by telling you, giving you

a completely different point of view.

476

So I had a search consultant who told me

that, um, this was his go-to playbook when

477

he got call called into like, let's say

ACFO search from a big, for a big client.

478

Um, and he knew that he was up

against the other big search

479

firms, which we all know by name.

480

His goal was to come in and

basically tell the hiring committee,

481

um, that they're thinking about

the job spec completely wrong.

482

And my goal is to say

like, turn it upside down.

483

And what he said was, he said, it

doesn't always work, but every once

484

in a while it boxes everyone else out.

485

And then they're starting to be

skeptical that because all the other

486

people competing for the business,

they're telling them the same.

487

They're telling you x I'm telling you y.

488

And if I do that, create

white space and I can win's.

489

Interesting.

490

Part of this is that.

491

For those listeners who are familiar

with the Challenger sale, again, I

492

mentioned this a few times, this is our

study of business to business sales.

493

That approach was actually the

winning approach in B two B sales.

494

So coming in, reframing the clients,

understanding what they need, upending

495

their, you know, breaking their mental

model, shaking them by the lapels,

496

shaking them outta their comfort

zone, figuratively, not literally.

497

Um, that was a winning approach.

498

Um, but what's interesting in tipping my

mid, we'll get to the results in a moment,

499

these debaters don't do particularly

well in professional services.

500

And I think the reason is that

if you're selling software.

501

It's all well and good to come in and

reframe the client's world and blow

502

up their conception of what they need.

503

If you're selling yourself and you

are the product, it's exhausting for a

504

client.

505

And we had clients tell us this.

506

They said, I, you know, we had a

specific question in our client

507

interviews we asked about, um, I.

508

You know, how important is it to you that

your partners and your firms you work

509

with push your thinking and challenge you?

510

And, and they all said,

absolutely, it's critical.

511

I don't want any, I, I don't

want yes people, right?

512

I want people who push me, make me a bit

uncomfortable, push my thinking a bit.

513

I need a, a thought, thought partner.

514

But they also said, if every time

I sit down with them, they're

515

telling me I'm doing it wrong.

516

Like,

517

I don't have time for that.

518

Sometimes

519

I just need you to do

what we know we need.

520

Right?

521

So that is, uh, that is

our debater, uh, profile.

522

Track 1: Yeah.

523

Um, the, I'm glad I haven't

come up against that a lot.

524

in my professional career.

525

matt-dixon_1_11-07-2023_100944: Yeah,

it's, by the way, and to your point,

526

and I think there's a specific point,

uh, reason I think Juliet, maybe for,

527

for I, you're not the first person who

said, I, I don't know if I've worked with

528

Track 1: Mm-Hmm.

529

matt-dixon_1_11-07-2023_100944:

or been pitched to by those folks.

530

Those were the smallest percentage

overall in professional services.

531

So it, again, I think because

you're selling yourself and it is a

532

relationship focused business, that

it kind of weeds out people like that.

533

I mean, you do have some, but

they're, they're not very prevalent.

534

Track 1: So the fourth one is the realist.

535

matt-dixon_1_11-07-2023_100944: Yes.

536

Yeah.

537

So realist is another one that

you, it's a unique profile.

538

This is completely unique

to professional services.

539

This is the above board.

540

Truthful, transparent.

541

Um, you know, I'd say the, the

truth teller of, uh, to the client.

542

Tell the client what they need to

hear, not just what they wanna hear.

543

They're very comfortable saying

no, they do not sign up for work.

544

They can't, they know, they can't

deliver on, they will not sign up

545

for work that the client hasn't

allocated, um, enough budget for.

546

And they will always set proper

expectations with their clients.

547

Again, tipping my midst of the results.

548

Clients think that this approach

is, they appreciate it, but it can

549

be a little bit of a downer, right?

550

It's a little bit of a glass

half full approach, especially in

551

places like strategy consulting

552

where, you know, sometimes it's about

painting the art of the possible

553

and, and, you know, uh, the blue

sky kind of thinking our bluish

554

in strategy, uh, type of approach.

555

And so clients can find that.

556

If you will, Debbie Downer kind of

557

approach should be a little bit deflating.

558

Now, it, it is interesting that you

find these people in professional

559

services, and I think the reason

is that, um, professional services

560

is, it's not like buying software.

561

It's not like buying a medical

device, which you can test out.

562

You can see the features and benefits.

563

You can touch it, you can feel

it, you can pilot it, right?

564

Um, when you're buying a service

from a firm in professional services,

565

you are hiring for expertise

that is not possible to assess.

566

Until you get into the engagement and

you're kind of taking a leap of faith.

567

And I think what these realists understand

is that every client out there has

568

been burned in the past by a partner

that has overstated their capabilities.

569

A firm that is overpromised

and underdelivered

570

a, a lawyer who's like, who sends

surprise invoices after the matter

571

is concluded that are well in excess

of the stated budget that, you

572

know, was articulated way upfront.

573

So everyone's had that experience.

574

And so these folks try to set themselves

apart by kind of going overboard.

575

On the truthfulness.

576

Now, again, this is not to say

you don't want every partner

577

to be truthful and transparent and

honest, but these realists know that

578

unfortunately that is not the case.

579

And so they try to really set themselves

apart, um, and get clients to understand

580

that if you really want the honest

truth, you come to me, I'm the person.

581

Never gonna tell you, um, uh,

you know, uh, never gonna spin.

582

I'm always gonna tell you what you need to

hear or not what you wanna hear sometimes.

583

So,

584

Track 1: Mm-Hmm.

585

. Um, so the activator is our

final profile, which spoil?

586

Alert.

587

That's the rainmaker profile.

588

. Um,

589

matt-dixon_1_11-07-2023_100944:

When we get to that point,

590

Track 1: right.

591

So this is, I.

592

I, I think I am the activator profile,

like I and I, so I just, I wanna dig

593

into all the pieces of it because I

think this is part of the activator

594

profile is that relationships, it's

relationships inside the office with

595

the clients, making new relationships.

596

So I, I wanna dig into the activator.

597

matt-dixon_1_11-07-2023_100944: Yeah,

so the activator, uh, to summarize is

598

I would call them a super connector.

599

So, um, they are su like if you looked

at what we had a set of questions

600

around, for example, LinkedIn

601

usage or how a partner engages

with clients at a, a firm sponsored

602

event or an industry conference.

603

Activators, they are heavy users of

LinkedIn and, and, and technologies

604

like Sales Navigator for instance.

605

Um, they are purposeful

attendees at events, meaning.

606

Most partners will go to

an event and it's there.

607

You're there to consume the event,

have a nice dinner, have a couple of

608

cocktails, maybe you meet somebody, um,

maybe some business falls into your lap.

609

Great.

610

Um, but activators are there as a

business development event, right?

611

So they look at the attendee list, they

612

schedule meetings in advance,

coffees, breakfasts, you know,

613

lunches, dinners, side conversations.

614

They're looking at the attendees

and they're specifically saying, I

615

want, my goal is to meet this person

and that person, this other person

616

now.

617

They leave that event with a stack

of business cards or connections

618

they've established, and then they

try to convert those, uh, connections

619

into conversations and then use those

conversations to create paying clients.

620

Now what's also interesting about

these conversations is they are very

621

proactive in nature and they're, it's

all about bringing clients new ideas.

622

So, um, the, that is the way they move

somebody from the outer rings of their

623

network where they're just a connection.

624

Just somebody I met at a conference or I.

625

Into the inner circle where

I become a paying client.

626

What I'm trying to do is spot an

opportunity for that client, whether

627

that's a regulatory change, it's

an m and a event in their space.

628

It's a, a change in the labor market.

629

It's um, you know, gen ai, right?

630

There's lots of different

things that are happening.

631

Tax court decisions, you name it.

632

Things that clients don't

have time to monitor

633

these activators say, yeah, I.

634

I can put myself in a great position

if I don't wait for the phone to

635

ring, but I spot an opportunity.

636

I say, Julie, I don't know if you

saw this tax court decision in

637

your jurisdiction, but I think it

might represent a threat or perhaps

638

actually an opportunity for your firm.

639

I'd love to hop on a Zoom

640

or, or grab a coffee.

641

Let's talk about it.

642

Now, what's also interesting is

these activators will tell you, I'm

643

not looking to bill for that time.

644

But what I am trying

to do is pay it forward

645

to give them a chance to kick the tires

on me as an advisor, and also earn

646

a bit of goodwill so that when Julie

realizes, Hey, this is a real need.

647

I wanna carve out budget for this.

648

We need to hire a service provider.

649

I've, and even if it's

competitive, I've got a leg up.

650

'cause I brought the idea to

you and I paid it forward.

651

Where every other partner's

only gonna talk to you if you,

652

they can bill for the time.

653

I'm gonna pay it forward

with a bit of free advice.

654

Now the last thing about

activators, which is very.

655

Interesting is that unlike the confidant

who kind of hoards relationships,

656

these folks are the exact opposite.

657

So activators believe that, um, in a

world of diminished client loyalty,

658

the way that you create stickier

relationships is that you gotta shift

659

the locus of loyalty from me to we.

660

In other words, I've gotta get

that client to stop being just

661

loyal to me as a service provider.

662

My goal is to bring in my colleagues

in other practice areas in my firm

663

because when I do that, that, becomes

a multi-point, kind of multi-threaded

664

connection, which a client will think

twice about severing and going with a

665

competitor when we serve

them across so many different

666

functional areas and domain areas.

667

Um, and so they are actively

looking to bring people in.

668

Um, and you know what's also interesting?

669

We talk to activators

and they'll say, look.

670

I also, um, leverage my network as

a strategic asset for my client.

671

So a client, and it's the very best

activators you talk to will say that.

672

Let's say, um, uh, we spoke to, for

example, um, a partner in a law firm

673

in the uk and he told us, he said,

I get calls all the time about I.

674

You know, uh, hey Jim, do you know

any, um, search consultants in our

675

space or we're looking for a tax

advisor in, you know, Malaysia,

676

or we're looking for an m and a?

677

You know, but you've always get, you've

always, you have a great deep network

678

and you always steer us the right way.

679

And so he will point people

to others in network, say, you

680

gotta really talk to Julie.

681

You gotta talk to Susan.

682

You got to, you know, here's, here

are the people you should talk to.

683

And they say, I know I get blowback value

for that, even though I don't even do the

684

work, but because I can connect my clients

with talented people in my network.

685

That is a huge source of

value, uh, to my clients.

686

So a lot going on there.

687

What I, the way I summarize it

back to your points, activators

688

really do three things.

689

So,

690

um, and one of which I didn't, didn't

actually mention, the first thing,

691

um, they do is they have a real

commitment to business development.

692

So, um, of the five profiles.

693

These were the only partners who told us

that they carve out time to do business

694

development every week, if not every day.

695

Now it's not a ton of time, right?

696

It's, um, but it's, it's

meaningful and purposeful time.

697

Maybe it's a half hour in

the morning or the afternoon.

698

They do not let it get scheduled over.

699

And if it does for an urgent client,

um, uh, uh, engagement, they move it

700

to another time of their calendar.

701

They

702

always make sure they get to it.

703

It's like going to the gym.

704

If I miss my gym workout in the

morning, I go in the afternoon.

705

Um.

706

Every other partner in our study said,

I do BD when I have time to do bd.

707

We're not busy, busy

serving clients, right?

708

These folks don't view it that way.

709

Why does that matter?

710

Because we are in a world

of lower client loyalty.

711

So you better have a pipeline behind

that, those handful of key clients.

712

Quick, uh, story on that one.

713

Um, one of the PR firms that participated.

714

Um, in the research, um, told us that one

of their, um, top rainmakers a person had

715

been a top rainmaker at their firm for

many, many years, um, had a huge global

716

consulting firm as their key client and

leadership had always tried to encourage

717

this rainmaker to broaden his portfolio

of clients to not be so Single, you know,

718

exposed to a single client, and every

time they tried to do it and they tried to

719

feed 'em other opportunities, they said,

no, no, I'm too busy serving these guys.

720

You know, they need me for an event.

721

They need me on site.

722

They need me to go meet

with the leadership team.

723

Never had time to create a pipeline

behind that one key client.

724

Then, uh, just this year, that key

client put the work out to bid,

725

and this PR firm lost the business.

726

That guy went from their top rainmaker

for probably 15 years to the lowest

727

performing partner in the firm.

728

Overnight.

729

We had nothing, nothing to fall back on.

730

So that's the first thing we call it.

731

Uh, this is the.

732

Three pillars of act.

733

The first one is commit

to business development.

734

The second one is connect.

735

And we talked about this before.

736

Um, building your network at both

internally and externally as a

737

strategic asset to be leveraged, right?

738

They understand that, um, a

multi-threaded, a multi-point

739

connection with the client is

way stronger, especially in the

740

current buying environment than

a single threaded relationship.

741

So bring your partners in, bring

your colleagues in, create a high

742

tensile strength, multi-point

connection web with your clients.

743

That will help you weather, um,

weather the storm, because again, those

744

clients are gonna think twice about

pulling up the 10 stakes and leaving.

745

And then the last pillar, uh, so

that's, so we got commit connect.

746

And the last one is create, so I mentioned

this before, but activators know that

747

in today's world where clients want to

bid out the work force you to go through

748

RFP is competitive pursuits, et cetera.

749

and and they wanna put you in a box and

they wanna assume like, you're all the

750

same, whoever who's gonna cut us the

best price possible for this engagement.

751

Um, what they understand is that

in that world, way better to create

752

demand than to react to demand.

753

So I need to be out in front of this.

754

I need to bring my clients' ideas, not

wait for the phone to ring, because

755

doing so allows me to shape the RFP

if there's gonna be one, but at least

756

shape the client's understanding

of what they need in a way that

757

feeds to me as the best service

758

provider

759

Track 1: Mm-Hmm.

760

matt-dixon_1_11-07-2023_100944: So.

761

Track 1: So a couple of things when

you were talking about the activator.

762

My first thought was in order for each

and every firm to have . Activators,

763

we need to look at how people

are compensated for the work they

764

bring in and the clients they have.

765

Because I think our compensation plans

and schedules force people into that, that

766

confidant role and that these are mine.

767

I don't wanna share the, you know,

the, the, you know, uh, promotions

768

or, or money or bonuses or whatever

that come with keeping this client.

769

matt-dixon_1_11-07-2023_100944:

Yeah, you're totally right.

770

In fact, you know, I should

say I, it's kinda skipped a

771

little bit of the punchline.

772

We already said the activators win,

but just to put a finder point on that,

773

when we ran a regression analysis,

which we talk about in the article,

774

we looked at, if you put, for lack

of a better description, if you put

775

these five profiles into a horse race,

and you said, let me take the average

776

performing partner, and let's see what

would happen if they chose to lean

777

harder into any of those five approaches.

778

Four of those five.

779

Um, realist debaters, um, uh,

confidants and experts actually

780

have a negative correlation with

business development performance.

781

So in other words, the more a,

you know, your average partner

782

leans into those approaches, the

worse they do, uh, relative to

783

what they could potentially do.

784

They think they're stepping on the gas,

but they're actually stepping on the

785

brakes on their own business development

786

only one.

787

It was the activator that had a

positive straight line statistical

788

correlation with performance to

really get down to brass tacks.

789

If you took the average partner.

790

They went from not very good to very

good on the activator dimensions.

791

They could lift their own personal

revenue generation by 32% up to 32%.

792

So it's a big, big change.

793

Now you hit on, it's so interesting to

me because when I talk to firms, um, I.

794

You know, we, and we

show them the results.

795

More often than not, they say exactly

what you just did, which is, uh, they

796

look at, you know, I show them the

results and they're overweighted,

797

let's say in confidants or maybe

in experts, which is where most

798

firms end up being overweighted.

799

Um, and almost always

the, the chair or the.

800

The CBDO or you know, the managing partner

will say, we did this to ourselves.

801

Like there, this is not just

happenstance that people all went

802

into this confidant approach.

803

If you look at our comp plan, if you

look at who we hold up and we celebrate,

804

you look at the lateral

hires, we're bringing in the

805

people we put on a pedestal.

806

We shine a bright, we

put their name in lights.

807

Like every signal that our

younger, uh, associates and, and

808

income partners and, and junior

partners get is, this is the way to

809

make it.

810

You know what was interesting is across

these 23 firms, there were a handful

811

where they had a spike in activators.

812

Which really kind of set them

apart from their peers overall,

813

but also in their sub-segment.

814

And so we spent a lot of time with

those leaders trying to figure

815

out like, how did this happen?

816

Right?

817

'cause you're doing something differently.

818

And what we found was, um, that

they're kind of, they're, that

819

activator is not just about partner

skills, it's about firm capabilities

820

and creating the right environment.

821

So the first thing to your point

is, um, you've gotta have the right

822

both monetary, uh, incentives and

non-monetary reward and recognition

823

programs that signal to partners.

824

Here's what we care about,

825

right?

826

We care about cross-sell,

we care about collaboration.

827

We care about, um, network building.

828

We care about purposeful use

of technologies like LinkedIn

829

or events or, or what have

830

you.

831

We care about everyone carving out

and protecting time, uh, for bd.

832

Um, you've also gotta have the right

training and coaching programs, right?

833

That teach partners how to do this stuff.

834

And here's the thing, almost every

one of those activator firms told us.

835

We don't wait till people make partner to

teach them how to do business development.

836

That's actually in many

respects, too late.

837

What you wanna do is start investing

in them at the associate level.

838

Because if you think about stuff,

activators do, commitment to bd, network

839

building, being a proactive rather

than reactive, um, business developer.

840

These are not things you need to

wait till you make partner just

841

muscles you need to wait to develop.

842

You can

843

start developing them early.

844

And then the last thing they

would talk about, um, was.

845

Enabling an activator approach.

846

So that is the way that you equip

partners with technology or the way

847

that you support them with the BD team

or with, uh, thought leadership or the

848

way you structure your events program,

um, and support partners to turn those

849

events into real BD opportunities.

850

Like they're, you gotta create kind of a

nest for your, uh, for your activators.

851

So they're not swimming against

the system, but rather they're

852

supported by the system.

853

So I, I think that's one of

the most interesting parts of

854

the story actually, is that.

855

Again, it's, you could take a partner

in almost any other firm and you drop

856

'em into one of these activator firms

where they're supported and all the

857

nudges they're getting, tell them

to do things one way not the other.

858

And the outcome can be quite different.

859

So again, it is a story of

individuals, but it's also a story

860

of, uh, firm leadership and firm

861

capabilities.

862

Track 1: you, you quite succinctly asked

my next question, which was, you know, if

863

we need more activators in our companies,

how do we start creating them and giving

864

them frameworks to become activators?

865

I wanna go back to one thing

that you talked about about.

866

When it comes to BD, that the activators

schedule it and they, they, they

867

dedicate a certain amount of time,

and you didn't say how much time they

868

dedicated, but research shows that about

six hours a week is the sweet spot for

869

business development and or network

networking and business development

870

at the, you know, in conjunction.

871

And when I . Giving keynotes and I talk

about this magical six hour number,

872

people are like, I don't have six hours.

873

matt-dixon_1_11-07-2023_100944: Yeah.

874

Yeah.

875

Track 1: Um, and I think

the activator reframes.

876

What is networking and what is business

development as a very holistic part

877

of the job you're already doing.

878

matt-dixon_1_11-07-2023_100944:

Yeah, that's right.

879

You know, and, and I think, um, I

think sometimes partners get into this

880

mode of like, okay, I'm gonna schedule

an hour a day or however much time

881

a day to do my bd, and it's, that's

pitching for business time, right?

882

Or it's going fine, responding

to RFPs or what have you.

883

I.

884

But, but it's a very, as you said, it's a

very holistic understanding of what is bd.

885

So that hour might be spent, um, following

up on all the stack of business cards

886

you collected at the last conference.

887

It might be, um, scrolling the news to

look at, are there events here that I

888

could bring to one of my clients and say,

this is an opportunity for us to talk and

889

maybe potentially do business together.

890

Uh, there was a partner, we, um,

interviewed a longtime partner, managing

891

partner, actually, of a, uh, an Asian, uh,

Asian off office of a big global law firm.

892

And he told us.

893

And his kind of specialty area was, um,

patent and trademark kind of, uh, law

894

within, um, within the food, uh, industry.

895

Uh, and so he said, um, he

only ever had three things on

896

his desk, uh, any given time.

897

The first thing he had was his checklist.

898

Here are the things I'm gonna

do today in, in the BD things.

899

Here are the client thing.

900

So there's your commit piece, right?

901

This is, I've developed

a metronomic cadence.

902

I don't let BD fall by the wayside.

903

I, I'm always doing it.

904

The second thing he had, he always had

LinkedIn open on his, on his computer.

905

Never closed it, right?

906

Always had it open.

907

Track 1: I never close mine.

908

matt-dixon_1_11-07-2023_100944:

Never close it.

909

Right?

910

That's how we got connected.

911

I think

912

so.

913

And then the last thing he had

was on his desk, the stack of

914

today's news in the food industry.

915

And he's going through it and he's

carving out time and saying, where

916

is there some new, like, is there a

firm that's created new innovation?

917

Have they patented that?

918

Um, should I reach out?

919

Is that an opportunity

for having a conversation?

920

Um.

921

And so that to me was really interesting

'cause you got that commit that

922

the commit piece, the checklist,

you got the Connect, which is your

923

LinkedIn and you got your create,

which is that those industry events.

924

So I thought was a simple kind of way

to think about that activator playbook.

925

But you're quite right, it's not.

926

Now, if you look at, if you look at

average partners, what they tend to

927

do, first of all, their time is way

overweighted to delivering work versus um.

928

bd.

929

And the reason is they believe

delivering great work is bd, right?

930

That means if I deliver great

work, I'm automatically gonna

931

get the next piece of business.

932

So that's, and the other thing is

activators are equally weighted.

933

Not they're, they're more evenly balanced

in terms of BD versus execution time.

934

But also if you look at their BD time,

they're more evenly weighted across new

935

versus existing client opportunities.

936

Now, if you look at most other

partners are way overweighted

937

to existing clients, right?

938

I've already got this

relationship, I'm just gonna.

939

Overinvest in time, shower them

with service and client centricity

940

And

941

um, uh,

942

you.

943

know, all kinds of, you know, great work.

944

And then they'll just

hire me automatically.

945

But again, that, that approach

may have worked 10, 20 years ago.

946

You know, maybe we would've

seen the expert of the confidant

947

was the winning approach.

948

But today the client

environment is really changing.

949

And look my.

950

My, uh, guidance for partners is,

you know, if you're a top rainmaker,

951

if you're a top performer and you

952

Don't see yourself as,

953

an activator, that's okay.

954

There are top performers who are

on the other profiles for sure,

955

Track 1: Mm-Hmm.

956

matt-dixon_1_11-07-2023_100944: but

957

I think it's also.

958

a recognition.

959

We all agree the client buying

environment today is different from

960

how it was 10 or 20 years ago, and

if you buy the proposition that the

961

world is changing, then by definition

you have to evolve your approach.

962

What worked yesterday is

not gonna work tomorrow.

963

And so I encourage partners

to think about this as.

964

Not changing everything about who you

are and what you do, but rather, um,

965

uh, building involving some new tools

to put in your BD tool, tool belt.

966

Keep doing the stuff that made you

great, but understand as the title

967

of the, um, the Wellknown book goes.

968

What got you here is not gonna get you

there, and you gotta keep stepping on

969

the gas and evolving your own approach.

970

Thank

971

Track 1: Matt, this was amazing.

972

Thank you so much for taking so much

time to talk with us about this.

973

Um, if people wanna learn more about

you and learn more, more about what

974

you and your partners do at your

company, where, where should they, um,

975

look to find you or go to find you?

976

matt-dixon_1_11-07-2023_100944: Uh, so our

company website is uh, d cm insights.com.

977

Um, and that provides an

978

overview of kind of

who we are, what we do.

979

Um, we have offerings, as I

mentioned, we kind of cut our teeth

980

in business to business sales.

981

We do still do a lot of business

to business sales support, but also

982

what we do to help partners and

firms on this activator journey.

983

So can learn all about us and maybe

more than you wish to know on.

984

Track 1: Um, and I'll put a, i for

those people who have a Harvard

985

Business Review subscription, I'll

put a link to this article in the

986

show notes as well, um, because

it's, it's a fascinating article as

987

matt-dixon_1_11-07-2023_100944: Thank you.

988

Thank you.

989

And I should mention, by the way, I, I

love connecting with folks who've, um,

990

heard me on a podcast or show like this.

991

If you did, uh, send me a LinkedIn

invite, um, uh, Juliet, Julian,

992

I'm very active on LinkedIn.

993

I am, um, and I, I know I'd love

to connect with your listeners.

994

If you have a follow-up question, hit me

up and happy to continue the dialogue.

995

Okay.

996

Take care.

997

All right, so there you have it.

998

I want to be a Rainmaker or want

to nurture them within your office.

999

Start focusing on the three

CS commit, connect and create.

00:44:49,404 --> 00:44:51,894

Make time for business

development every day.

00:44:51,894 --> 00:44:56,634

And if not every day, every week,

Become a heavy user of LinkedIn, not

00:44:56,634 --> 00:44:59,814

just for connecting, but for commenting

and creating your own content.

00:45:00,414 --> 00:45:01,824

Start educating your clients.

00:45:01,824 --> 00:45:04,404

Don't wait for the phone to ring or

for them to reach out when they need

00:45:04,404 --> 00:45:08,334

help anticipate their needs and how

you can be a source of information.

00:45:09,264 --> 00:45:12,624

And convert those connections

into conversations.

00:45:13,104 --> 00:45:16,404

All things that we have talked

about on this podcast to still

00:45:16,434 --> 00:45:18,234

down and backed by research.

00:45:18,834 --> 00:45:23,874

And you know how much I fucking love to

say the research suggests take a drink.

00:45:25,164 --> 00:45:25,974

And with that.

00:45:26,351 --> 00:45:28,181

We are now onto the drink of the week.

00:45:28,601 --> 00:45:29,291

And it is.

00:45:29,951 --> 00:45:32,951

Based off of the three's commit,

connect and create it is the

00:45:32,981 --> 00:45:35,051

triple C welcome cocktail.

00:45:35,051 --> 00:45:36,371

And it's from taste and tipple.

00:45:36,581 --> 00:45:37,541

Here's what you're going to need.

00:45:38,051 --> 00:45:39,611

A quarter ounce of cinnamon syrup.

00:45:39,641 --> 00:45:42,431

We've covered how to make simple

syrup before and flavored simple

00:45:42,431 --> 00:45:43,931

served before in this podcast.

00:45:43,931 --> 00:45:45,371

So quarter rounds of cinnamon syrup.

00:45:45,881 --> 00:45:49,931

Two to three dashes of cardamom,

bitters, one ounce of cognac, four

00:45:49,931 --> 00:45:55,751

ounces of chilled, sparkling wine

and grapefruit twist for a garnish.

00:45:55,841 --> 00:46:01,601

So I think the three CS are going to end

up being cinnamon cardamom and cognac.

00:46:02,081 --> 00:46:03,251

I think that's the three series.

00:46:03,731 --> 00:46:06,941

Anyways, poor cinnamon syrup

into a champagne flute at two to

00:46:06,941 --> 00:46:08,621

three dashes of cardamom bitters.

00:46:08,681 --> 00:46:11,231

Add the cognac carefully

top with sparkling wine.

00:46:11,411 --> 00:46:13,721

You know, it could be

four seas if you use cava.

00:46:13,751 --> 00:46:14,021

Okay.

00:46:14,021 --> 00:46:14,471

I'm getting off.

00:46:14,531 --> 00:46:14,771

All right.

00:46:14,771 --> 00:46:18,131

Anyways, sparkling wine and

garnished with a grapefruit twist.

00:46:18,551 --> 00:46:18,941

Okay.

00:46:19,211 --> 00:46:19,871

All right, friends.

00:46:19,901 --> 00:46:20,681

That's all for this week.

00:46:20,741 --> 00:46:22,631

If you like what you heard

today, please leave a review

00:46:22,661 --> 00:46:23,921

and subscribe to the podcast.

00:46:24,251 --> 00:46:27,491

Also, please remember to share the podcast

to help it reach a larger audience.

00:46:27,761 --> 00:46:29,411

If you want more, Julie

Brown, you can find my book.

00:46:29,441 --> 00:46:31,451

The shit works on Amazon

and Barnes and noble.

00:46:31,451 --> 00:46:33,941

You can find me on

LinkedIn at Julie Brown BD.

00:46:34,151 --> 00:46:35,801

Just let me know where you

found me when you reach out.

00:46:35,831 --> 00:46:38,441

And I am Julie Brown underscore

BD on the Instagram, or you can

00:46:38,441 --> 00:46:39,881

just pop on over to my website.

00:46:40,331 --> 00:46:43,571

Julie round bd.com until next week Cheers.