Colorado baker Jack Phillips has been at the center of a religious freedom firestorm involving his refusal to bake a cake for a gay wedding. Join host Pastor John Cain as he welcomes Phillips and his attorney in a discussion of recent development in the controversy.

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And welcome to engaging truth. I'm your host, pastor John Kane, you know, the faith, conscience and rights of individual Christians are increasing under attack. Our guests today have firsthand experience with these kind of attacks. Jack Phillips owns masterpiece cake shop in Lakewood, Colorado with him today is attorney Jake Warner legal counsel with the Alliance defending freedom. Welcome to the program. Yeah. Well, starting with you, Jack, would you please recap for our listeners, the events that, uh, we've heard about on the news?

So I think the question that many people have is, uh, in hindsight, do you wish you'd just made the cake or take us through your reasoning and your faith and, and explain why you, uh, told them what you did

So in the aftermath, how have these legal challenges affected you and your family and your business?

Um, they affected us quite dramatically right off the, uh, Colorado civil rights commission and the administrative law court, uh, ruled that I had to start creating these wedding cakes that went against my faith if I were to continue to do wedding cakes at all. And so the decision was easy. We're not going to create wedding cakes anymore, but it was a decision that came with, you know, great difficulties because the wedding cake business was a large part of our income at that time.

So partly in response and partly to tell your story, uh, you've written a book. Yeah. Tell us a little bit about your book.

Well, the book is called the cost of my faith. How a decision in my cake shop took me through the Supreme court and it details the, the events of that day starts off with that afternoon with the two men coming in, um, subsequent harassing phone calls, death threats, uh, loss of business, but then it goes into, uh, my growing up, you know, background, um, my love of art and, um, needing a job after I graduated high school and getting a job in a bakery and coming to learn to love baking, and then, uh, finding the baking and, and my art background together, deciding to open up masterpiece cake shop and you know, where that idea came from. And, and that kinda a story. Uh, the name of the shop masterpiece cake shop masterpiece says art cake shop says cakes. So you knew you'd be coming in to get a, hopefully a, an artistic expression made out of cake and the cake would be my canvas.

Sounds good. What, so where can our listeners go if they'd, uh, like to pick up a copy of your book,

I then go to, uh, Amazon Barnes and noble Christian book distributors. Um, they can, um, order 'em directly through me at the cake shop. Um, my emails, um, really available masterpiece cake shop at MSN com. And, uh, we can connect that way, but it's, it's available wherever good books are sold.

That's great. Let's, uh, go over to, uh, to Jake, Jake. Um, why are these cases with, uh, masterpiece bakery so important for not only other businesses, but important for every Christian to pay attention to

There's one question at the center of each of Jack's cases. And, and to be honest, uh, it's one question that many courts are wrestling with around the country right now, and that's this does the government have the power to force creative professionals to express messages that goes against their deepest beliefs. And the first amendment says that the government does not have that power. And that's what these cases involving creative professionals, uh, concern. Um, we believe that the principle that protects Jack in this case, in all of this cases is the same principle that protects every American, including those who reach a different conclusion from Jack on some of life's biggest issues. And that's why we think that courts need to recognize that government has no business nor power to force anyone to express a message that violates their conscience. .

So are these cases all settled now?

They're certainly not settled. And, uh, there's plenty of cases. Ongoing ADF has represented clients all around the country. Certainly we represented Jack multiple times now, but we've also represented, uh, filmmakers in Minnesota, a painter in calligrapher in Arizona and all along the east coast. And what we've seen is that many courts have recognized that the government doesn't have the power to force these people to communicate messages that go against their deepest beliefs. For example, the eighth circuits recognize that the state doesn't have the power to force two filmmakers to create, um, wedding films, celebrating same sex wedding that, that violates their conscience. Similarly, the Arizona Supreme court has recognized that it can't that the state can't force a painter and polygrapher to create wedding art, celebrating a view of marriage that goes against their beliefs. So what we're hoping to see is that trend continues around the country and that the us Supreme court will ultimately weigh in and ensure every American has the right to create art consistently with their faith, without fear of government punishment.

So, uh, the screen behind you says, Alliance defending freedom. Tell us a little bit about the Alliance defending freedom. What kind of take, uh, cases do you take?

Well, ADF is the largest Christian legal organization dedicated to God given rights. We advocate for religious freedom, free speech, the sanctity of life, marriage, and family, and, uh, parental rights. And, uh, we represent people just like Jack all around the country. Uh, we represent, um, artists, we represent, uh, calligraphers paint, filmmakers, photographers, oral artists, all kinds of folks. Uh, and we are wanting courts to recognize that the government doesn't have the power to force these people to communicate ideas that goes against their faith. Certainly we do a wide variety of other work too, dealing with pro-life issues and different things like that, that I just mentioned.

So there an ADF legal.org, there's also an ADF church alliance.org. Uh, tell us a little bit about the difference between those two.

Well, a couple of years ago, the ADF launched its church Alliance and the idea was to provide a community of churches in which ADF would provide, uh, certain kinds of representation for, we would review their documents and ensure other kinds of, uh, ways, uh, to make sure that the church is, um, operating in a way that, um, is consistent with their faith, but also protected as much as possible from the laws and the various jurisdictions that we're in. We found that a, a lot of churches started having questions as they've seen, uh, as they've seen, uh, cases such as Jackson, um, others that we represent go through the court systems, churches started to wonder, well, uh, how do these laws affect what we do? Our hiring decisions, how we, uh, accomplish our mission and what we did here, ADF was, we said, Hey, uh, we will provide, um, a service for you to, uh, help, uh, you know, review documents to make sure that you are complying with, with these laws, but also staying true to your beliefs and giving you some security in that way.

So how many attorneys are a part of this, uh, organization ADF?

So how can our listeners get more information about you and perhaps support

Your work? Yeah. To learn more about ADFS work and also to learn more about the stories of people, just like Jack, you can go to our website, it's www dot ADF, legal.org. And there you'll find a lot of information, um, about this subject.

So can you talk a little bit about why it's important to have a constitutional court and not an activist court?

Well, it's important, uh, that the American people have confidence that their courts will interpret the law as written. That's the whole purpose, uh, uh, of our judicial branch. And they try to do that the best that they can. Um, what we're hopeful for is that in cases, just like Jackson around the country, that, um, the courts will recognize that the government doesn't have the power to force people to express messages that goes against their faith. And what we found is, is that, um, that these cases have a real cost of things. Don't go freedoms way. You know, I think about bear now, Stut, um, she's the Washington forest. She served, uh, a gentleman for nearly a decade before he asked for custom floor arts celebrating, uh, a same sex wedding. And, uh, Barnell politely declined that request. Um, but she's faced litigation for eight years. Um, because of that, uh, decision, uh, unfortunately, uh, just in the past few weeks, the us Supreme court declined to hear bear nail's case and she stands to lose nearly everything, her business, her retirement, uh, all that, um, based on, on that outcome. So, so these cases have a real cost. And what we're hopeful for is that courts will recognize this cost and affirm the freedom of every American to live consistently with their boys.

So thinking about a case like that, is it possible to, uh, get the Supreme court to revisit something like that, or to encourage them to broaden their rulings so that, um, uh, there aren't these minor differences between cases that there would be an understanding that the, um, the bill of rights will be supported.

We're confident that the us Supreme court will address this issue very soon. Um, cases are popping up all over the country with creative professionals, wondering, does the government have the power to force me to express a message that goes against my deepest beliefs? In fact, um, we had a ruling just this past week from the 10th circuit, forcing a, a web designer in Colorado to, uh, if she enters the wedding industry to create wedding website, celebr of your marriage, that contradicts her biblical beliefs. We're gonna ask the Supreme court to weigh in on her case and, and any other case that reaches that level. And we're confident that at the end of the day, the us Supreme court is going to recognize that people like Jack have the right to live and work consistent with their faith without fear of government punishment.

Very good. It, it seems strange to us perhaps that, uh, people that have assumed that, uh, things would always be defended according to the bill of rights that now it seems like some people are pushing a different agenda.

Well, certainly there are always going to be opponents of freedom, but here ADF, we, we want to advocate for freedom. Well, we wanna defend the, to people just like Jack Phillips. And like I said, we're very confident that the Supreme court will ultimately weigh in, in favor freedom. In these cases,

We'll come back to, uh, Jack Phillips and Jake Warner in just a moment. But first I'd like to, uh, point our listeners to our radio programs, website, Elm houston.org at El L lamb, houston.org may learn more about us find our Facebook, Twitter, and YouTube pages. And there, you may also donate to support our interviews with Christians who share their faith in Jesus often in very creative ways. We're a nonprofit organization and are on the air hosts are all volunteers. So your donations go far in purchasing broadcast airtime. You may write us at Elm PO box 5, 6, 8, Cypress, Texas, 77 4. Oh, going back to, uh, Jack Phillips, Jack, how can our listeners pray for you?

So it sounds like we need to pray for, uh, uh, a change of heart for those who are attacking Jack and, uh, Christians, uh, who are engaged in, uh, creative pursuits, um, pastor Paul to talked about, uh, uh, praying for, uh, our enemies, those who are opposed to them so that their, their hearts may be, uh, opened to, uh, to God's love and the truth. Um, as you look towards the future, what kind of, um, world would you, would you like to be making cakes in ? Is there, uh, an aspect of, of your, um, work that, uh, continues to give you great joy?

You know, I, I enjoy every aspect, uh, of my job. I enjoy the interaction with the, uh, customers, probably foremost, um, the designing of the cakes. Um, I'd say my, uh, cakes to become a canvas where I get to, uh, use my art to help people celebrate. And so I'm just hoping that, uh, the courts will, uh, understand that, uh, creative professionals like myself, um, have the right to, uh, live and work according to our conscience, without fear of, uh, punishment and these prolonged, uh, court battles, just to defend that.

That's, uh, what, tell us a little bit about your cakes. What's the one you've ever done?

Um, I've done a couple of very large ones. I did one that was shaped like a warehouse for a grocery warehouse opening. Um, it was about, uh, on and all six feet by 12 feet wide. It was a full warehouse with little products in front of it and all, or a big building that I was part of a team that we created that was it tall and, and 12 foot long and three feet wide. Um, but some of the unique, some of the smaller ones are more fun than that. Like basket of flowers for, uh, um, woman came in and she wanted a cake for her mom's 100 birthday and she loved red flowers. So we did a, a cake like that. Um, that was a basket of flowers for her. And that that's rewarding in and of itself, even though it's not large, it's a small event, just a few people there, but, um, it's a personal aspect of it and getting to take part in that message and that, um, celebration is why I got into this in the first place.

Yeah. Jake, could you talk to us a little bit about, uh, uh, are, are your, uh, cohorts, are, are they, uh, distributed around the country or do you have one home base?

ADF has offices around the United States, uh, one in Arizona and DC and Virginia and Georgia and other places. Um, but we also have offices all around the world, um, ADF, uh, advocates for religious freedom, uh, the sanctity of life, free speech, uh, marriage and family all around the world. Um, so we wanna make sure that, uh, that freedom is preserved for the next generation.

I I'd like our listeners to understand that, um, this kind of case could have an effect on churches. It could have a, an, an effect on, um, other, uh, individual contractors. Uh, the, the possibility of the breadth of this kind of case is something that would, uh, uh, possibly affect just about every aspect of the lives of, of every Christian. So if we, uh, broaden this case out, perhaps to its, uh, uh, potential, it, it is something that I, I want all of our listeners to, uh, to realize that, uh, uh, this case is bigger and Jack's cases are bigger than what they May 1st, uh, appear. Yeah,

I think that's a good point. John, what we're seeing is, uh, a growing trend around the country, government officials and activists are weaponizing our, um, legal system to try to punish people that they disagree with. And right now it's Jack Phillips and Barnell Suzman and other creative professionals around the country. But tomorrow that could expand to others, including perhaps, uh, churches and other religious ministries in different ways. So, uh, this threat to freedom is a concern, and that's why it highlights the importance of the us Supreme court stepping. And I'm cutting off these attacks now.

Yeah. I, I don't want our listeners to think that it can't happen because it's happened in these ways, perhaps as near as Canada and, uh, Germany and other, other nations. So, uh, hold your freedom dear and defend it and stand up for what you believe in.

Yeah, that's exactly right. Freedom is worth protecting, and that's what we're committed to doing here at ADF.

Yeah. Jack, uh, if there's one message that you would like to give to our listeners, what would that be?

Conscience. That's right. That's right. So thank you for, uh, for standing up and, uh, defending your freedom, but also, uh, defending the freedom of, uh, other religious individuals throughout our country. Um, it's been, uh, made clear to me that, uh, if cases like yours were to lose, then maybe the next step would be taking the ability to, uh, conduct weddings away from churches. So, uh, that, that kind of thing is, uh, the, uh, is what's facing, I'm afraid all of us, if, uh, if we don't stand up now and stand with the two of you,

It's important to take these threats seriously. Um, but we're confident that freedom is ultimately going to win out in the

Evening. Yes. Well, good. Well, God's blessings on your work for both of you, whether it is, uh, a cake or a, or a case, , we, we thank you, both of you for spending time with us and for, um, uh, pointing our listeners to, uh, the battle lines that, uh, that have been drawn real quickly. Jack, would you tell us once again, where we can find a copy of your book?

I find a copy of the cost of my faith. Uh, a decision in my cake shop took me to the Supreme court at Amazon. You find a Barnes in Novo. You can find a Christian book distributors, or you can contact me directly at masterpiece cake, shop atn.com.

Very good. God's blessings. Join us again real soon for another edition of and aging truth.

Thank you for listening to this broadcast of engaging truth. Be sure to join us each week at this time, to help support our ministry, contact evangelical life ministries, post office box 5 6 8, Cypress, Texas 77, 410, or visit our website@elmhouston.org, or find us on Facebook at evangelical life ministries. Thank you.