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188: Dwayne Staten | Power of Forgiveness Podcast ft. Joseph James
Episode 1888th August 2023 • Purpose Through Pain • Joseph James
00:00:00 01:05:53

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This is a very special episode, Joseph James was interviewed by Dwayne Staten, the host of the Power of Forgiveness Podcast.

They talk about how Joseph felt like he could never do anything to win in life in the eyes of his father, how he came to forgive him, and how they became best friends. They also talk about rejection, not being able to say sorry after someone passes away, and how people can come to forgive others, but they may not forgive themselves. 

They also talk about something very important and unique, unforgiveness. Unforgiveness can affect your body, your relationships, your life, and its is something that many people need to learn about to recover from. 

In this episode:

  • How joseph dealt with rejection from his father
  • How joseph delt with rejection from dating
  • How joseph put himself back out there to date
  • The definition of unforgiveness 

Key takeaways:

  • The 2 main parts of forgiveness
  • How to forgive yourself

Tweetable Moments:

  • “Its okay to not be okay”
  • “When you take the step to forgive someone, you may not hear what you want to hear. Do not take that personally.”
  • “When we dont forgive ourselves, our bitterness and resentment bubbles up.”
  • “Our brains are wired to scout for the bad stuff”

Connect with Dwayne Staten:

Dwayne's Instagram:

Power of Forgiveness Podcast:

Connect with Joseph James at:





Dwayne: Hello everybody, and welcome to another episode of the Power Forgiveness Podcast. My name is Dwayne Staten and I have a very special guest with me. Mr. Joseph James, how you doing, sir?

Joseph: I'm doing great, brother, so honored and happy to be here.

Dwayne: Honestly, I wanna thank you for honestly taking this. When I got the email saying that you were interested in this podcast, I'm not gonna lie, I was like, this is spam, this is spam. I know this ain't no real person. Then when I actually looked it up and I saw it, I said, oh snap, this is real, and when I looked at your background, I said, please, come on, please. Come on. You know what I mean? Thank you so much. So again, just thank you for just taking the time and opportunity to do this. I appreciate it.

Joseph: Absolutely, absolutely. I'm truly honored.

Dwayne: All right, so let me ask you this, if you can be on any reality TV show, which one would you be on and why?

Joseph: Reality TV show, let's see here. That's a good one. I haven't had that question. It's been such a while since I've gotten into TV. Man, reality TV show, could that be a game show also? I was just thinking about that, like a game show, that is reality. It would probably be something to do with World's dumbest criminals or something just oh yeah really, guys? Are you serious? I'm like, are you serious people? I'm like, did you not think this through? Honestly, I would love more than anything because I grew up a sports fan, I'd love to be on ESPN. I'd love to just broadcast on, oh, that's one, like some, like a highlight reel, like Chris Berman. Yep, little Chris Berman, my God, man, really? Really, man? Yeah. Something like that. Something like that. So that would be my that would be my, just totally opposite end of the wall of what I do right now, just the total just ESPN man, I hear that.

Dwayne: For me, oh, reality show, what I wanna be on. I'm a pro, it's, I'm just gonna be honest, wheel of fortune, there you go. What's that game show? It's Chain Reaction, okay. And it was another reality TV show. Oh, people Puzzler, it's a game show where it's like, people at magazine have the crosswords. They made that into a game show. So I would I would do that because me and my wife, we would just watch those all the time, and I'm just like, we're just guessing the puzzles, and I'm just like, I would love to be on, I really would.

Joseph: I'd love to be on the Family Feud with Steve Harvey, just to sit there and listen to them. Just to listen to them. I don't care if I get it. Everything I'd probably say is wrong, I'd be the guy that somebody comes up with 187 points and you only need three to get to 200, or whatever it is, and I wouldn't even get those three points, that just, that'd be me. That'd be my luck, and then I'd just get that dumb stare from Steve, just really?

Dwayne: That does, that would be me. He does give that ski the, he does give that stare. He is just did that really just come out your mouth?

Joseph: Exactly, exactly.

Dwayne: I remember this one. Even I looked at the dude like dumbfounded. He said, this dude said, give me a name that starts with H and the dude was like, Jose. I said, I've heard that one too.

Joseph: I've heard that one.

Dwayne: Man I literally looked at this guy, and I was like, he's dead serious, and he walked away, that was the winning answer. And I would've said, oh, sir, I'm sorry that you we'll just move on. We'll just, but again, just thank you for just coming on and just doing this.

Joseph: Absolutely.

Dwayne: I really appreciate this. So I know, when I got the email, I know that you have a story about forgiveness, so I just wanted to give you, this is this, give you the platform. So please tell us your story, sir.

Joseph: Absolutely. Just to give you a little background, I grew up in a very abusive family. My father was abusive, was a 20 year Marine Corps veteran, and so we lived a I wouldn't say we lived a militaristic life. That's not what our family, our upbringing was, but however, my dad believed in discipline and he believed in respect. So it was, yes sir. No sir, yes ma'am, no ma'am. But he also had this rule, it's an unwritten rule and it really wasn't fair, but if we went out in public, or to somebody's house or wherever, if they did not if whoever we were around did not come up to my parents and say, wow, you had the most, the most behaved kids, we got in trouble for it. And I'm like, y but that's the kinda, family we lived in my, he was very abusive, verbally, physically, mentally, the only thing my dad wasn't, is he was not sexually abusive to any of us, okay. But I grew up in this harshness of the physicality, but then also, and it wasn't so much the physicality that did the damage, it was the verbiage, it was the words. It was the words that we hold on most to, because, the Bible clearly says that it's, our words have the power to create or to destroy, life, speak life or speak death. It doesn't say anything about hitting somebody will create, speak life or death or things like that. Not that physical physicality can't do something like that, but ultimately, it was his words. It was, no matter how hard I tried, it was never good enough, when it came to sports, when it came to academics in school, and a minus was never good enough because I should have got an A plus, and that went through on, that went out throughout my childhood, my early childhood. I remember coming home and being all excited about a 97 on a test. And dad's you should have made a hundred, and I'm like, and you get beat down enough when you feel that you're doing your best and where it's not good enough. And you get to the point of why try anymore? Because when I would get a C, the response to a C would be the same thing as a response to an A. And so I'm just like, why try anymore? Why do it? At that age, why I didn't, and I've never really thought about this until now, but why I didn't go into the mental breakdown side of things of doing self harm or doing things to get for attention, I don't know. I guess my attention was trying to be the class clown, I gained the attention within the class, not doing anything self-destructive to me or to other people, but ultimately the rejection was very harsh to me. So I loved my dad, he was married to my mom for over 39 years before she passed away, okay? And, but my dad, he, I can vaguely remember the times of going out and having fun, dad times our fun dad times revolved around wrestling in the house, which was okay, I loved and a few times of him going out and throwing baseball with me or throwing the football, which all became work, not play, and I remember the times my dad was an avid, college basketball fan. We were diehard North Carolina Tar Hill fans, grew up watching Michael Jordan play. I was very young at the time when he was finishing his college career, but definitely watched them all throughout the NBA and so we were North Carolina Tar Hill fans, and then we were Chicago Bull fans, and that was about it, and then of course I loved football, I was a Washington Redskins fan, okay. 'cause in North Carolina, the Carolina Panthers didn't exist at that time, so we only had the Atlanta Braves that we can get baseball from, which I was a diehard Braves fan, and then Washington Redskins, and then of course every North Carolina basketball game. And I began to take such a liking that I would study the players and where they were born at, their hometown, their birthdate, their career statistics, their rookie year, how many tackles, how many home runs, you name it, I could, you could say, all right, Dexter, Manley, Washington Redskins, okay. He was number 72, he was kicked outta the league for cocaine, use all this different stuff. I could just ramble it all.

Dwayne: Whoa, okay, whoa. I remember Dexter Manley.

bly now about, this was about:

Dwayne: Whoa. Yeah, that's exactly, that's a truth bomb that.

Joseph: Yeah. And I'm like, in my mind, I'm like, how on God's green earth do you think is justifiable to take discipline and go beyond it to abuse? Wow. How can you fathom that? And I didn't understand. I didn't really, I was so caught off guard that I really didn't have a retaliation except for just saying dad I couldn't say I was, you were wrong, 'cause I didn't know all I could say dad, I forgive you anyways. But I was more perplexed by the fact that he would say that, not a yeah, you know what, son, you're right, I should have done things different as a dad. No consoling whatsoever, no apologies whatsoever, and I remember going outside as we were at church. I remember going outside and I'm in a RV of a friend that's a, he was a guest speaker, and he was my dad's age, spent time in Vietnam, so I said this to him. He said, Joseph, he says, you've gotta put yourself in your dad's shoes, and I'm like, what do you mean? He says, you have to realize what your dad went through and how your dad was taught to raise children or to be a father, or to be a husband, because let's really think about it, Dwayne. Let's really think about it. Is there really an instruction booklet on how to raise kids?

Dwayne: Absolutely not.

t if you were a child born in:

Dwayne: You ain't lying, you definitely not lying on that one.

Joseph: That's it. So I can write a book about my trauma and it's only going to come from a standpoint of what I went through, what I learned, and that's it, I can't sit here and tell you, Dwayne, this is what you have to do because I know this works all the time. I can even do a survey, I can do a case study of 400 people and out of 400 people X, X, X at this means this and this means that, and this is what the profound results were. But it doesn't necessarily mean it was you, okay? We see this in society, white male growing up in a certain area, black male growing up in a certain area. Yes, there are statistics saying white male can be likely to do this and black male can likely to do this, but it doesn't mean it has to happen. And so ultimately I had to realize the biggest thing about me forgiving somebody else is this right here, is knowing that when you go to forgive somebody, you may not hear the answer you want to hear.

Dwayne: Say that one more time, please, say that one more time.

Joseph: When you go to forgive someone, you may not hear the answer you want to hear, and this is where true heartbreak, this is where the hurt really comes in at. 'cause in my mind, okay, I felt my dad should have said, you know what, son, you're right, I'm so sorry. And I set myself up for more hurt, more failure, more grief, more trauma, more pain, more rejection, more resentment, more unforgiveness. I did that, my dad didn't do it.

Dwayne: And oh gosh, that's powerful, and it reminds me of some, something that someone said about how closure is a trap. Remind me of someone said that, 'cause when I thought about it, it's like, what if you do want closure from someone and they don't say exactly the script you have played in your head. How is that gonna work out?

Joseph: It doesn't bring closure, it don't.

Dwayne: what brings it brings more questions or more pain.

Joseph: Let's talk about closure, closure is nothing but healing, right? Okay. We get an answer, we can now put it beside but behind us, okay. But here's the thing, that's not the end of healing. It's not the end of healing. Because when we're go if, let's take a, let's take my mom for example, okay? Let's just say that my mom divorced my dad because she was in an abusive relationship, okay? Let's just say she did it young. She had three, four kids and they were all toddlers, okay? And she moves on, okay? And she lets go, she brings closure to the relationship by getting a divorce, never seeing him again. Even, let's just say that everything went perfectly right, that he gave her what she needed in the verbal words of closing, okay? But now she gets into a relationship that somebody could be very similar, maybe he goes to grab her for the first time out of impulse, now what happens? Now you realize whether or not you're truly healed or whether or not the trigger has now resurfaced or you've been re-triggered, okay? Because here's the thing about rejection, alright? Okay. And I know this is a little off subject compared to the forgiveness side. I thought that when I avoided rejection by not getting into any type of businesses because I had chance when I was very young to get into businesses, okay. And I didn't wanna hear the word no when it came to talking or asking about asking somebody for money, I didn't wanna hear the word no, okay. The other aspect of it was the girls, I didn't wanna hear the word no. So I did not even get married, I met my wife at the time she's now of, deceased. But we got married at 27, I met her at 25, okay or not. I was almost 25 and I met her mutually through her brother, okay. And it was just like, Hey, I liked her. She looked cute, but I didn't know what was gonna happen. But the way we met everything was just kinda Hey, it's just a group of us. We're hanging out, we're playing monopoly, and now I could do my flirting because I wasn't coming out asking, and we're all in the same thing. It wasn't isolating me to, Hey, I saw you sitting over there all by yourself, would love to be able to sit down with you. I didn't have to do it that way because in my mind, that was gonna be my worst case scenario of getting the word no. For me, the way I created it was, is if nothing happens, if there's no chemistry there, I'm not hurt because I didn't put myself out there, okay? Fast forward, I get married two years later, I kept married, okay? Was married to my wife just shy of 14 years before she passed away, and after she passed, it wasn't until later on when I f you know, January would be three years, but it wasn't until. Later on that when I'm like, okay I guess I need to start putting myself back out there and dating, and of course now you've got all these, social media apps to find people on dating. Yeah. You've got anything and everything, right? And so I when I remember the first time flirting with a young woman, and we're, where, again, it's a group setting. We're all out on a river and we're floating down the river on kayaks and tubes. And I'm flirting with her, and we start to chitchat and we get, exchange each other's numbers and stuff like that, and about two weeks into it, she just messaged me. I sent her a message on Instagram and she responds back, she says, don't ever talk to me again. Damn, and I'm like, and I'm like, first I'm like, what in the world did I do? But every bit of rejection, I dealt with as a young child and a young adult resurface back up. And why did it resurface? Because I was never healed of it, I was just in a relationship with a beautiful woman that never rejected me, but it doesn't mean that I wasn't re, I didn't still have rejection issues. And that's the thing also about forgiveness, just because you say you go to forgive somebody doesn't mean it's done, doesn't mean you're healed of it. It just means that there's an aspect of it that is a step in the healing process, 'cause here's where the old here's the part about us going to forgive somebody, okay. Us taking the step of action to forgive somebody is a place of vulnerability within ourself.

Dwayne: Say that one more time, just one more time.

Joseph: The step of going to forgive somebody, is the action of vulnerability within us, you the action of vulnerability because vulnerability brings healing.

Dwayne: Yes, it does. So I'm glad you said that. I am very glad you said that because one thing that I've noticed is that not a lot of people are vulnerable, and what I've also noticed is people play it off, I'm not hurt, I'm fine, I'm good, we're not fine. No, we're not, we're not, okay. And it's okay to not be okay. But being vulnerable, that's key. That was, oh, that was great. I'm sorry, keep going.

Joseph: Oh, no. Absolutely. I'm actually writing down what I said because I'm like, man, that's really good myself action.

Dwayne: It's funny how that works, right? It's like when you say something, it's just oh, snap, that was good. Yes.

after. So to fast forward, to:

Dwayne: Ah, nothing but facts, nothing but facts, nothing but facts.

Joseph: When we don't forgive ourself, and I want y'all to listen to me out there. When we don't forgive ourself, this is where more of the bitterness, the anger, the resentment, all those things start to boil up. We shift our focus on the other individual, but ultimately it's within us because we start blaming ourself, like for me, I blamed myself. Why didn't I listen to my wife more? Why didn't I take, I was listening to her, but for her, she wanted my undivided attention. She wanted me to close my laptop and turn around and look at her and says, tell me about your day, sweetheart, that's what she wanted, and I knew she couldn't forgive me because she was no longer on earth. And so I got to the point, it's God, forgive me for not forgiving myself of all the things that I went through. It wasn't my fault that my dad was abusive, it wasn't my fault at all, but I blamed myself, it wasn't my fault that my dad took me through so much rejection in life that it stemmed me from not wanting to get into business, 'cause I didn't wanna hear the word no, or rejection, ask a girl out. Okay, I'm 43 years old, I just turned 43 in September, okay. I was just realizing these things last year at 42, okay. But I'm telling you that the healing that has taken place in my life over the last year because of understanding the power of forgiveness within myself, I always knew there was forgiveness in other people. The Bible talks about not being, not forgiving other people, okay? But when are we gonna start forgiving ourself? When are we gonna start forgiving ourself for blaming ourself when it wasn't our fault? When are we gonna stop? When are we gonna start forgiving ourself for blaming ourself for things we didn't know that you think you should have known? I knew I shouldn't have gone out with that guy and I would've never been raped. How do you know you shouldn't have gone out with him? That's it. How do you know it was gonna, that's it, I had instincts. I had red flags, okay. We can sit here and say all day long, trust your gut.

Trust your gut, trust your gut, 'cause, because science has already talked about how it's connected to the brain. Listen, my brain has talked me more out of things that could have bettered me. Yeah. Than talked me into it, because the brain is designed to protect yourself, and the brain doesn't recognize the difference between the fear of jumping off a bridge when there's a bungee cord attached to your feet. Then taking a step and hiring somebody in your business, or making an investment, or starting a podcast or going out on a date or getting married or going through a divorce, the brain doesn't know the difference.

Dwayne: It is funny you said that because actually there was a study, it was done, it was a often a psychologist, Rick Hansen. He said, our brains are wired to scout for the bad stuff.

Joseph: Yeah, man, that's good.

Dwayne: And there was another article that was stated, we're, that's how we're wired to go for the negative, so you're right, we are more wild wired to talk our ourselves out of things than into things, keep going, I'm sorry, keep going.

Joseph: So ultimately, we blame ourselves for things of, what if I would've done this? What if I would've done that? You can't. What if life, nope, you can't, okay. If you make a mistake okay, I made a mistake, but you know what, I wasn't raped because I made the mistake of going out. I was raped because the guy did that to me, period. I made a mistake by allowing my kid to go with her dad, and her dad got drunk and the kid was killed in a car accident, it's not your fault. For letting the kid go. It's his fault for drinking, and we can dissect so many things, but ultimately we have to come to a place in our life. And I think this more than anything, I think the importance of forgiving ourself is way more than forgiving other people but I am never saying, don't forgive somebody else, that's not what I'm saying. Forgiving other people is an aspect of healing. You need to do it, but what you can't forget about is forgiving yourself.

Dwayne: Yeah, I agree.

Joseph: Because when we don't forgive ourself, we blame ourself, blame is grief. Grief, trauma, grief, pain, they're all interconnected, they're all interconnected.

Dwayne: I just had to take a minute, that's a lot to take in, very honestly, all good truths, but that's all gems, all gems, just wow.

Joseph: And Dwayne, your podcast title is The Power of Forgiveness, but there's so much power in unforgiveness. Nobody wants to talk about unforgiveness, we only want to talk about forgiveness.

Dwayne: let's talk that, we going to talk about that.

Joseph: Unforgiveness leads I mean you can research it, you can Google unforgiveness leads to health issues.

Dwayne: I actually did an episode on that. I did an episode, how I can deal with not only emotional issues, but also physical and mental issues, it can affect relationships and it's a lot, here's the thing, I knew unforgiveness was bad, just in general. But then when I learned how can it could affect my body, the people I love and everything else I just said, oh my gosh. Yeah. Oh yeah. What I look like holding this unforgiveness against somebody. That didn't make any type of sense, none.

Joseph: You don't realize it. It's like going into the gym, if I said, okay, we're gonna go in the gym and squat 600 pounds, you're like, oh my God, I can't even hold 600 pounds, but if I slowly start increasing the weight over a period of time, you'd be like, oh my goodness, I didn't realize I was carrying 600 pounds for so many years. There there's a new weight loss thing going on right now, it's not a program that's new, but everybody's taking pictures of turkeys, okay. And they're like, this is the amount of turkeys I was ultimately carrying around in my body, because I lost 150 pounds, I can't believe I was carrying around 150 pounds worth of turkeys, because they did it over a period of time, and the same thing with unforgiveness and grief, and loss and trauma and pain and hurt, okay? We all have a purpose in life from the pain that we experience, we all do. But there's a reality of understanding that forgiveness can lead to a road of destruction within our life, because we're carrying around that 10 pounds of guilt, we're carrying around that 30 pounds of pain, we're carrying around that eight pounds of trauma, we're carrying around the different things, grief, shame the rejection, the resentment, the abandonment, all those things we're carrying around all that excess baggage and all that excess weight. Simply because we're not choosing to forgive, and like Ira said, the two aspects of forgiveness, forgiving others, forgiving yourself, 'cause you can forgive others easily, not saying it's easy, but you can forgive others. And still live with the same guilt, trauma, hurt, pain, and everything else that goes along with that as a byproduct, simply because you're not forgiving yourself.

Dwayne: It is funny it's not funny. Sorry, let me use a different word, we always talk about, we need to forgive us, but forgiving ourselves is definitely key, as an old saying goes, it starts at home and with us, it has to start there, it has to. And as we were talking, I was looking it up, like for example, the unforgiveness. What's the effects of. Holding a grudge. If you, unforgiven, you bring anger and bitterness in every relationship and new experience, you become so wrapped up in the wrong that you can't enjoy the present. You become depressed or anxious. You feel like your life lacks meaning or purpose, or that you're at odds with your spiritual beliefs and you lose viable and enriching connectedness with other people. That's just a few things that can happen. And I've experienced that, like when I had unforgiveness every time with my biological mom, someone brought that up. I'd be like, why'd you bring down the mood the wrong? Everybody else's mood was fine, mine wasn't right, and I immediately, I'm just like, my mood just changed the whole time. So it really does help to let it go, let that unforgiveness go. You know what I mean? It does help.

Joseph: It's a powerful thing both ways, the power to destroy us, but also the power to set us free.

Dwayne: Wholeheartedly agree with that, wholeheartedly agree with that. So I wanted to go back really quickly 'cause it sound, from what you said, it sound, what you said earlier. It sounded like you were trying to find a connection with your dad through sports and like through the military service and looking for that approval. So what was that like for you when you were younger? What was that like for you?

o pitched the World Series in:

Dwayne: Yeah. I agree wholeheartedly agree with that, and wholehearted agree.

Joseph: That's the failure that we have is we expect somebody to respond a certain way when it comes to telling them that they forgive them or even saying, Hey, will you forgive me? No, I don't forgive you or why would you not forgive me? I'm coming to you 20 years later and apologizing. Key takeaway, you have to know and understand that people may not respond the way you want to when it comes to forgiveness, learn to walk away, you did your part, now the second part you can do is forgive yourself.

Dwayne: I agree with that, one thing I do wanna say also is let go of the script you have in your head. It'll let go of that script and I'll add on to that. Let go of, you need to hear someone say this exact thing in order to either let it go, to forgive, to heal, no, let go of that, 'cause there are times we could be like, if this person says this, I can forgive them. That's still keeping yourself hostage. You know what I mean? It doesn't help you, it hurts you. 'cause if I say for, if you say, if they say, I'm sorry for the last 15 years, that's what you want them to say, but they actually say, Hey, I messed up, what? The script doesn't go right. Some people may hold that grudge, so I say, let go of the script, you know what I mean? Let go of that script. One thing one thing that really just punched me in the mouth when you said you forgave your dad, and he said, that's what I thought I had to do, and I hear that from a lot of people my age when they talk to their parents, they're just like, I'll learn this from my parents or this is how I was brought up and X, Y, Z and there was a meme on Facebook and I want to bring it up. It said, give our parents grace, 'cause we were watching them grow up. And I was like, that's so powerful, so powerful. So when he said that, what did that do? What did that do to you? What did that do for you when he said that?

n he was a kid, being born in:

Dwayne: That's powerful, thank you for that. I wanna ask you, what does forgiveness mean to you?

Joseph: Forgiveness to me is coming to a place in your own heart and life of letting go, letting go that you can heal. And that may be a blanket statement, but forgiveness is I'll tell you what, for forgiveness is nothing more than openness. Forgiveness is the letting go. So you can be let in, so things can be put back in. It's if you look at a glass half empty, right? You can walk around and be defeated because the glass is half empty, unless you're always thinking about fullness, my glass is half full. I must pour that glass out so I can be refilled, when you harbor for unforgiveness, you'll never be in a state of forgiveness. So forgiveness to me is letting go so you can receive.

Dwayne: Yeah, I like that, I love that, I do. What is something you wish you learned earlier in your journey to forgiveness?

Joseph: Forgiving myself that when I kept on hearing the words no, and that I stemmed it into other things, that forgiving myself of accepting that answer so I could move on in life earlier.

Dwayne: And what do you wish to impart to the people about forgiveness?

Joseph: Just no one understand the two aspects of it, no one understand that. Number one, you have you, you need to come to a place of forgiving other people, but in that no one understands, you may not hear what you want to hear when you walk up to somebody and tell them that you forgive them, okay? Number two is forgiving yourself, I can't preach that enough. I cannot preach that enough because when you forgive yourself, because here's the thing, only you. Can decide whether or not you forgive yourself, you have that choice that's dictated by you. Yeah. But when you're forgiving somebody else or you're asking somebody else for forgiveness, that's dictated by them. And you can't control that. But you can control the aspect of forgiving yourself.

Dwayne: I like that, I do love that, I want to say thank you for coming on, man, for real, 'cause this was a treasure just talking to you, man, it really is. I appreciate it, brother, thank you for that. So let the people know everything you have going on when it comes to websites, businesses, whatever it is, who is yours, just promote yourself.

Joseph: Absolutely. So one is, I run a podcast called Purpose Through Pain. We're on all the major platforms, apple, Google, Spotify, it's called Through Purpose Pain, and we are helping and coaching people to find, to take the pain that they've gone through life and find their purpose through it, sharing it with other people or maybe just even understanding why you went through it, okay. I'm on Instagram, I'm on all social media meetJosephJames, the word Meet Joseph James, that's my first and last name, you can reach out to me then. I am also, I am a coach, I'm a breakthrough life coach, I do coaching to help people find their purpose in life on the pain that they've gone through, okay. For me, you heard most of my story, and then of course, it went to my dad dying, my wife dying, raising three kids by myself, dealing with all the trauma related instances as a kid and learning how to find, again, my purpose because at the end of the day, we cannot touch what we cannot feel, and that's the healing process, okay. So by all means, please reach out to me on social media. I'd love to be able to hear from you guys, reach out to me, ask questions, and any way that I can help you guys meetJosephJames on Instagram, you could reach out to me that way. Love to be able to help y any way that I can.

Dwayne: Absolutely. And for those who didn't catch that I got, I'm gonna put that in the show notes so that y'all can connect with them. All right. But Joseph, really just thank you, thank you for coming on, for real. Really just thank you, man. I appreciate you.

Joseph: Absolutely, brother, I'm truly honored, Dwayne.