A few weeks ago we talked with Dr. Brad Klontz about the 'money scripts' that we pass on to our children - perhaps unintentionally - if we fail to examine these and make conscious decisions about the messages we want to convey about money to our children. Today we continue our series on the intersection of parenting and money with a conversation with Dr. Allison Pugh, whose doctoral dissertation (and subsequent book, Longing and Belonging: Parents, Children, and Consumer Culture) remain seminal works in this field even a decade after their publication. In this interview, we take the position that advertising to children is happening - so what do we do with that?  How do children make meaning out of the messages sent to them through our consumerist culture?  How do parents attempt to resist the effects of this culture, and how successful are they? In our next episode in this series we'll dig more deeply into the effects of advertising itself on children's brains, so stay tuned for that!   Book mentioned in the episode

Longing and Belonging: Parents, Children, and Consumer Culture (Affiliate link).

  Other episodes on this series This episode is the second in a series on the intersection of parenting and money. You can find other episodes in this series: 038: The Opposite of Spoiled 105: How to pass on mental wealth to your child 112: How to Set up a Play Room 115: Reducing the Impact of Advertising to Children 118: Are You Raising Materialistic Kids?   [accordion] [accordion-item title="Click here to read the full transcript"] Jen  01:31 Hello and welcome to the Your Parenting Mojo podcast. Today's episode is part of a series that I'm doing on the Intersection of Childhood and Money. A while back now I interviewed New York Times columnist Ron Lieber, on his book The Opposite of Spoiled and we do use his approach to several topics related to money. But it seemed to me for a while now that there's a lot more to say on this. So more recently, I interviewed Dr. Brad Klontz on his concept of Money Scripts, which are the ideas about money that were passed on to us by our parents and that we will probably pass on to our children as well if we don't critically examine these and potentially make a conscious decision to choose a different path. Another avenue I've been wanting to explore is consumerism since I come from England, which is certainly becoming more Americanized than many other places, but where consumerism still doesn't have the same force that it does here in the US where buying things to express love or because you're feeling sad or just because you feel like it is pretty much considered a birthright. And I spent a lot of time looking for someone to talk with on this topic and finally found our guest today Dr. Allison Pugh. Dr. Pugh is a Professor of Sociology at the University of Virginia whose teaching and research focuses on contemporary work and relationships, and particularly the intertwining of culture, emotions, intimacy and economic life. She's currently a fellow at the University of Southern California in Los Angeles while she writes a book about her research on the automation of work that's historically relied on relationships between people like the caring professions. She wrote the book Longing and Belonging: Parents, Children and Consumer Culture back in 2009, in which she studies how children and parents in both affluent and working class communities in the East Bay Area of California where I live, manage the commercialization of childhood. The book was named by contemporary sociology as one of the 12 most influential books on the family written since 2000 and received several awards. A decade later, it remains the seminal work on this topic. So I'm excited that Dr. Pugh is here today to talk with us and help us think through this important topic. Welcome, Dr. Pugh.   Dr. Pugh 03:26 Thank you so much.   Jen  03:28 All right, so I'd like to start by quoting a few of the very first sentences from the preface of your book. So you say “Ask them straight out and most upper income parents will tell you they don't buy much for their children because they have the ‘right values’. Meanwhile, low income parents will try to convince you they buy quite a bit because they are not ‘in trouble’. Go into their children's bedrooms, however, and you will find many of the same objects Nintendo or Sony gaming system, the collectible cards, the Hello Kitty pencils.” You go on to describe how nine in 10 Americans feel that children today want too many material things. And four out of five parents think Americans overly materialistic society produces over commercialized children. Oh, my goodness. So what are some of the popular reasons why we might think this situation exists?   Dr. Pugh  04:17 Well, the first thing I would say is what is the situation?   Jen  04:19 Yes.   Dr. Pugh  04:20 And the situation is that children have a lot of things and yet Americans are worried about how much children might attach to those things, how much kind of emotional attachment they might feel towards material things. And those two, that's why I'm saying that, I'm describing that situation using those two things. They both have the things and Americans are worried about their feelings toward those things. That's the situation we're describing. And why do we have that situation? One issue is the kind of massive influence of consumer culture on Americans generally, not just children but children and adults, and that's why children have those things. And then the question about like, or the issue about how Americans are worried about how children feel about those things, that's a different issue. And that reflects our ambivalence towards consumer culture. As a culture, we both embrace it and we are worried about it. We are concerned about its impact on our own lives. And we express that concern with our concern around children. That's what I would say, kind of writ large. Now, the question about like popular reasons why people think children might be materialistic. That is, you know, people are sure that children are just glued to the TV or to their screens and then very susceptible to the advertising that's they're more susceptible than they see themselves as being. That would be like the number one reason why people are afraid that children are too materialistic. Another thing that you hear sometimes popular reasons would be people are pretty sure that other people, other parents are less able to control themselves than they themselves are. So they're pretty sure that other parents are, you know, kind of opening the spigot and just letting kids have whatever they ask. And then there's often a lot of generational critique, like, oh, kids today, you know, that would be another kind of popular reason why people are afraid. They're like, oh, kids today, they're more materialistic. They're more screen-focused, they're more obsessed with stuff, you know, that kind of thing. So those are three potential reasons why people—those are reasons you hear batted about, like, why kids, they have so much and be maybe too attached to those things.   Jen  06:45 It's like we're caught in a really difficult bind here, isn't it? We want the convenience of being able to make one click and buy something on Amazon that shows up tomorrow, whenever we feel like it. But at the same time, we're so worried about what this means for our children's futures. It's a very difficult position to be in for parents, I think.   Dr. Pugh  07:04 Yes, I agree. And, yeah, my overall kind of conclusion from all the years of research that I did and talking to people about this subject after is that, you know, the overarching conclusion I would want people to walk away with is something like, you know, be aware that children live in the same culture that you do.   Jen  07:25 They do?   Dr. Pugh  07:28 And whatever you're worried about for your children, kind of look at your own self, and what is the kind of modeling that you are doing? That's kind of the main thing that I come away with.   Jen  07:42 Yeah. Okay. All right. Thanks for giving that away early on.   Jen  07:46 And so you'd mentioned advertising, and I know that advertisements geared towards children isn't a big focus of yours. And so I'm hoping to do a follow up episode on that with somebody else who does really focus on this, but I wonder if you could just tell us briefly before we move on, why do you take a different view on this topic?   Dr. Pugh  08:02 Right. Well, it's not that I don't think advertising is important. Advertising is very important. I’m not, you know, kind of discounting the findings of many, many psychologists and experimental scientists that find that, you know, you show children an ad in an experimental situation in a lab, and then they turn out they want it more later or, you know, like there's a lot, not to mention all the corporate research finding efficacy, you know, they spent billions of dollars on advertising to children, and they're not doing it for their health. They’re doing it because they believe it to be effective. So it's not that I'm saying advertising is not effective. For me, I was less interested in tracking the effectiveness of advertising than I was in kind of how children what's the meaning children make of the stuff in their lives when they're out in the real world? What does it mean to them? And so the reason why I didn't focus on the advertising is because I kind of made it a constant. I just assumed all kids are exposed to advertising to some degree. And I did this at a time when I myself had three young children ranging in age from about, I think it was about three to 10. And my kids, you know, we don't have a TV, you know, like all these things, I was doing all these things to, I thought shelter my children from advertising.   Jen  09:26 As a good middle class parent does.   Dr. Pugh  09:29 You know, doing my best. And then they're in school or just walking around, like they swim in this water just like we do. So, even if you're doing some things, to keep them what you think sheltered or protected from advertising culture or consumer culture, they get it anyway from a whole bunch of other sources. And so that was part of the thinking that like, you know, advertising is everywhere. But that's not the end of the conversation. That's the beginning of a conversation like, given that advertising is everywhere, what do we know then? What's next about what to know about the meaning that children make from stuff? That's where I started. I wasn't controlling the effect of advertising because I didn't perceive that that was very possible. I was just like, okay, assuming advertising is everywhere, what next?   Jen  10:24 Yeah. And so that takes us nicely to one of the key themes in your book, I think, which is the balance of needing to fit in, but also not be too different from people. So you want to be different enough to express your individuality, which is why you need Nike sneakers, right? The right logo on the side. So you have to fit in, but you also have to show your individuality. And of course, this exists both on the part of the children that you studied, as well as on the parents’ memories of their own childhoods and whether or not I as a parent felt like I fit in as a child really can have some profound impacts on how I want to raise my child. And so I'm curious, what can you tell us about the differences that you notice that were important to children and parents?   Dr. Pugh  11:05 Mm-hmm. Well, one thing I want to emphasize a little bit differently, put a slightly different emphasis on what you are saying, which is I found that everyone, I would say, was concerned about fitting in. And the concern about individuality seemed, I'd say, of course, that's going to vary by temperament. So some kids are more concerned with that, but really, that was coming from the parents. So the kids were much more interested in belonging. And that's why I came up with that title. That title says it all.   Jen  11:39 Yeah, longing and belonging.   Dr. Pugh  11:43 What's the meaning? If the question is what is the meaning that kids make of the stuff in their lives? The answer is belonging. And that's actually a really different thing than a lot of research I found thinks the existing research is like thinking about status and how to be better than, you know, the better than your neighbor or your, you know, in a hierarchy. And actually, the kids and I remember, you know, I sat with kids for three years.   Jen  12:16 You knew these kids really well.   Dr. Pugh 12:17 I knew them really well.There were three different locations that varied essentially by class. There was a kind of wealthy public school, a private school, and then a low income public school setting. And each of these the kids are using the meaning of the goods and the kind of services that they could buy or that the parents were buying to belong more than to assert their dominance. So it was like I kept seeing again and again, you know, kids sitting around going, you know, I have a Gameboy, which I realized is a rather outdated reference, so, whatever they're talking about today. I have a Gameboy and then someone else would say, well, I have a We or something they would try and trump it. They would instead say, well, I have a Gameboy. Yeah, I have one too. Yeah, I have one too. And it was like, I have one too or I've done that too, was much more prevalent and much more prominent in the conversations that I was witnessing over three years. Then, well, that's for losers and really everyone should have this or whatever, you know. Now, that's the kids’ world that I was witnessing. And that was a surprise to me, because I had been kind of prepped by the culture, I think the Mean Girls trope, you know, the obsession with status that is a lot of popular culture as well as the existing research. But then you talk to the parents. So I also interviewed parents of the children that I was observing in each location, and the parents were worried like about belonging also. But they were also worried about their kids’ individuality or I should say the affluent parents in particular were most focused on their kids’ individuality in ways that the children were less so. And I can talk more about that, because that's tied into all sorts of other things about parenting, but those things I found in their consumer.   Jen  14:19 And I think from the affluent parents’ side, that sort of, I'm thinking ahead to the college years and the getting into college years, and you've sort of got to show that your kid is different from the other 50,000 kids who are applying to Harvard, right? Is that a big part of the difference aspect?   Dr. Pugh  14:34 Isn’t that interesting? So I think that's true. But it's mediated through a kind of generalized parenting style of, you know, intensive concerted cultivation that I think you may have talked about before on the podcast. So Annette Lareau’s really important work diagnosing what middle class and above parents are trying to do, this concerted cultivation is figure out how your kids are unique individuals and then cultivate the things that they are going to make them particularly special that are their particular passions. That's something that starts at very young, will say toddlers, and I think is powered by, in my opinion by rising inequality and the higher stakes of getting into college and which colleges, the college race.   Jen  15:27 Yup. So you mentioned Dr. Annette Lareau’s work there, and yeah, we have mentioned that on the podcast before and the term concerted cultivation is one that she used to describe how parents used organized activities and I guess consumption as well to foster their child's talents and I'm going to quote you on this that you said,“From the perspective of upper income parents knowing children's desires was also part of caring well, of listening, empathizing and reflecting back to their children their true natures, so they grew to know and love themselves. Upper income parents sought to understand their children’s individuals including their desires as part of diagnosing their individual strengths and weaknesses, the central task of every upper income caregiver before commencing on the path of concerted cultivation, plumbing the depths of children's desires was good parenting.” And I have to say, I'm gonna go out on a limb here, this statement made me really feel kind of uncomfortable, because I see so much of myself and my daughter in it. And there's a lot kind of going on in my personal life right now that I'm struggling with or related to not really knowing myself and I talked to Dr. Carol Gilligan recently about how patriarchy causes women to not really truly know and to use their true voice and men not to know and express their true feelings. And so I do want to help my daughter to know herself and to express herself from a very young age and we plan to homeschool and so we're going to have the time and space for her to really know her own strengths and weaknesses. And kind of in a way cultivate herself and I think and hope this will help her to live a fulfilling life. But I also see Dr. Lareau is arguing I'm essentially preparing her to function as an upper middle class White person in society. And of course, the reason I'm able to do this is because I have economic privilege. And so what I'm trying to tease out here is, is it wrong of me to do it in some way?   Jen  17:12 It's okay to say yes.   Dr. Pugh  17:15 I completely empathize with it. And I have a kind of two part answer.   Jen  17:20 Okay.   Dr. Pugh  17:21 The first is that what you're describing is kind of seeing another person with positive regard and reflecting that person back to her or him, you know, the child, that's part of good parenting. That’s part of good caring on some level, like even the psychologists with their analysis of infant caregiver relations will tell you that that this is mirroring. And that's part of good care. So on the most fundamental level, the answer is no, no, it's not wrong. The problem is when it gets kind of activated as entitlement, and that's the direction in which our culture is going. So there's really great work after Lareau, which was published, you know, 15 years ago or more. There's really great work showing that kids of middle class versus kids of working class or poor backgrounds, take that the streets you could say that they derive from being seen so regularly and so typically by their parents, and take it into the classroom and customize the classroom to their needs, in ways that accentuate the advantages that they have. You know, it's not just their parents speak more vocabulary to them or that they have more books in the home, but that they assume that they can customize...