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136. When The Shepherd Must Find His Own Way with Matthew Brackett
Episode 13618th April 2024 • FINE is a 4-Letter Word • Lori Saitz
00:00:00 00:42:18

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When you go out to find yourself, the journey can take you places you didn’t imagine you’d ever go.

Maybe it will take you to a different town, or even a different country.

But once you get there, it’s possible you’ll discover you really need to go somewhere else. Kind of like in the book The Alchemist.

Matthew Brackett felt the calling to go into seminary life from an early age, and it seemed to align with the values he was raised with.

Growing up as the 10th of 13 children, he was fortunate that his father made enough money to cover the expenses, even if there weren’t a lot of luxuries, and to afford a house that had five bathrooms.

As a child, Matthew was exposed to the core values of generosity and helping others, which was natural in such a large family in a house that also included other people who stayed with the Bracketts if they were down on their luck. Service, generosity, helping others, and sacrifice. There was also the vision of the transcendental, the idea that you’re a small piece of a bigger picture.

Combining all this with Matthew’s need to live beyond the small town where he grew up, joining the priesthood seemed a natural next step as it took him all around the world serving thousands of people. First, he studied for 10 years, then served as a priest for 20 years, including as a chaplain in the United States Navy and Marine Corps.

Everything seemed fine – but Fine is a 4-Letter Word.

The problem was that while his life’s work aligned with his values of generosity and service, he found that he was not serving himself.

Ultimately, he decided to take a year off. During that year, he spent four months as an inpatient learning about himself, before returning to his hometown and living with his dad while working menial jobs and collecting new experiences.

Today, he coaches with individuals, couples, companies, and organizations of all sizes, whose leaders sometimes don’t quite know what to make of a former priest. Is he going to force his beliefs on them? Does his background give him the ability to see different points of view? Does he have the experience?

Matthew is now three years into his new journey, and once again he is finding his niche as a small piece of a new bigger picture.

Matthew’s hype song is “Back in Black” by AC/DC.


Invitation from Lori:

If, like Matthew, you get to where you set out to go and then discover that’s not where you belong, the 5 Easy Ways to Start Living The Sabbatical Life guide can point you down your next path.

Once you read it, you’ll

✅ Discover a counter-intuitive approach to making intentional changes in mindset and lifestyle.

✅ Learn how to own your feelings and your struggles so you can address them.

✅ Find out how to face fears, step out of your comfort zone, and rewire your beliefs.

It’s only 7 pages, so it won’t take you long to get through. It might help you begin to fill the empty spaces in your heart and your life that you didn’t see until you took this first step backward to begin your journey forward.

When you’re ready to say F*ck Being Fine, this guide is the place to start. It’s time to be open and honest with yourself so you can make things better.

Go to right now to download it for free.

Let’s go chat with Matthew. He’s got such a calming yet inspiring energy. I’m excited for you to hear what he’s discovered and what you can learn from him to apply to your own life.


Lori: Hello and welcome to Fine is a 4-Letter Word. My guest today, Matthew Brackett. Welcome to the show, Matthew.

Matthew: Thank you, Lori. It’s so good to be here with Fine is a 4-Letter Word.

Lori: Fine is a 4-Letter Word. Yes. So we’re going to talk about that.

Matthew: All right.

Lori: But first, what were the values and beliefs that you were raised with that contributed to you becoming who you did as a young adult and then through to today?

Matthew: Oh, boy.

Lori: I jump right in with the hard question.

Matthew: I'm the 10th of 13 children, small town, New England, very faith-based family with a Catholic background. The values and beliefs that really—one is generosity that marked us. I grew up in a—as you can see, my parents having so many children. Again, it was a very generous mindset. Not that that's the only indicator, but they were—my parents were also very giving, not only to their children, but we always had other people living with us at some point, people that were going through hard times. So this whole thing about service, generosity, helping others, even the word sacrifice or giving for others, that was one value and belief, the importance of that. Another one was to live with the vision of the transcendental, what I would call, or the eternal, or the bigger picture as we call it. We're not living in a vacuum. The way we live is there's a bigger story here and to think about the bigger story and to remember that. There's a faith element to that and just that aspect of the human being that we transcend ourselves.

Lori: That we're a small part of a bigger picture.

Matthew: Yes, that and that we always—the human heart always looks to go beyond itself. And so, that's also just an aspect of how we're wired as human beings. There's an element of faith in there, but there's also an element just how are we as beings. Those two things are the things that come to mind. Now, I think, and I see this in a lot of faith backgrounds that there can be a lot of, I suppose, the negativity around faith. In other words, fear-based or guilt-based faith in many practices. That's what I call lazy religion because that's sort of the easiest way to motivate people and that's not the most effective.

Lori: Yeah, yeah.

Matthew: And when I deal with pastors and preachers, I call it lazy preaching because that's just the easiest thing to do. And there was a little bit of that. I wouldn't say really from my parents, but from just the surrounding people that we mixed with. And so, I think that duty, obligation and sort of guilt was there and I've had to work through a lot of things so that that didn't have so much power over me.

Lori: You bring up an interesting point and then I want to ask you a question that popped into my head when you said you were 10th of 13 children. But first, the point is that you said that guilt induction part didn't come so much from your parents, but it came from your surroundings. And so, the point I wanted to pull out here is that, yeah, parents are not always—they’re never the only influence in a child's life or only significant influence. And I think people don't necessarily realize how much outside of parents influences children.

Matthew: Such a good point, Lori. And I think if we think back, if we think of how much time parents spend with their kids nowadays, I mean, the kids spend tons of time at school, then extracurricular activities with friends and then in other community or social settings. So yes, there's definitely a lot of influencers other than just parents. I think with everything, with the advances in psychology, there's a lot of weight and sort of almost fault or fault-finding point, finger pointing on parents, which is, sure, they are the first responsible people for the kids, of course, and for helping them navigate other circles. But at the same time, I think we have to be careful not to overburden parents with this responsibility as they're trying to figure out parenting.

Lori: Yeah, absolutely. All right. The question that popped into my head is, how many bathrooms were in your house?

Matthew: That's a pretty good question. We had a large house. My dad had a good job, but with so many kids, no luxuries, right? And we all had to pitch in vacuuming the house. My mother would say, “All right, before you go out and play, go vacuum the house, flush all the toilets, and shut off all the lights.”

Lori: Okay. Right.

Matthew: So I don't know, I would say, five maybe.

Lori: Okay, all right. I was kind of anticipating you might say one, and then I was just going to be like, how did that happen, but okay. I don't know why that question came to my head.

Matthew: That's a good question, though. But yeah, it wasn't an issue growing up, and that didn't really cross my mind.

Lori: Okay.

Matthew: If there would have been one, that would have probably been an issue.

Lori: Yeah, for sure. For sure. And so, then, as you're growing up, you're seeing all this generosity, giving, sacrifice. How did that influence you? Obviously, we had a call before for this interview, and you were in the seminary for 30 years. How did you make that choice? What influenced you to choose that career?

Matthew: I think the influence of being wired for generosity, wired for service, wired for self-giving, wired for looking for the good of others, and doing something impactful in time and in eternity right in that transcendental nature of things. I think that made me—there are two movements, I would say, in making that decision to go to seminary, being ordained a Catholic priest, and being in ministry for 20 years. Also, serving in the Navy as a chaplain. So I think one was, I wanted to do something meaningful and impactful, and the more sacrifice involved then that was sort of a litmus test for that must be the right way. Not necessarily the proper discernment elements are there, but that was just sort of the way I would wire the way I thought. So one was being drawn to something and doing something meaningful and impactful. And if it was harder and it required more generosity and more heroism, then it had to be.

Lori: Got it.

Matthew: The other, I suppose, movement was also just getting away from small town New England, getting away from my family setting. Well, nothing against my family, but I was like, maybe I felt I wanted to find myself, and so I want to get out of here and get out of the shadows of all these other people and expectations and do my thing.

Lori: Yeah. Well, that makes sense.

Matthew: That's the greatest motivation or reasons to do what I did. But that's what I was at that age.

Lori: Well, yeah. I don't know that it makes sense to put judgment on it, whether that was the best thing to do. That was the thing, that was the path that you saw to take at the time, and it led you to where you are today.

Matthew: That's right. Yes. As we move through life, we're just trying to make the most of it and make it work. And I'm at a great place in life where I look back on those 30 years, there were some hard times, very dark times, and maybe we'll talk through that. But at this point with so much gratitude and appreciation, it built me up in so many ways. It's made me who I become. I had to work through a lot of things to get to where I'm at. So I had to claim life, where I'm ever so thankful and appreciative to all the people, all the experiences, and to where it has brought me today. And that's what we have to do as human beings is to make whatever. We make the decisions we make, and as we work through them and figure them out, that we make them work.

Lori: Yeah.

Matthew: And we make even challenges that come our way, and difficulties that we transform them into opportunities for growth, and that we, little by little, make sense of them, and make sensible.

Lori: Okay. So you were in that career, if you will, for 30 years, but you were only 20 years as a priest? Is that right?

Matthew: Well, it's 10 years of preparation and education. So it is, you're very much immersed in the lifestyle of what we would call becoming religious, making vows, and then preparing for what we would call priesthood or religious ministry, formal ministry. So there's 10 years of education and experience that build up to receiving ordination as a priest, and then 20 years of active ministry.

Lori: And then you left that?

I left three years ago. So in:

Lori: I imagine that is part of where the whole idea of saying everything was fine, but it wasn't fine comes in for you.

Matthew: Right. Yes. Well, in that role like many other roles, you have to put up this facade or this mask, whatever you want to call it, that I got it all together, because people expect you to.

Lori: Right.

Matthew: Well, we think that people expect. I don't know if people really expect you have it all together, but we kind of think that because of the position and the role that I have, I expect people to expect me to have it together. And so, I won’t give up there.

Lori: I think people do expect their religious leaders, and I would go—I mean, this is completely random, but I would think even more than regular religious leaders, that priests are put on an even higher pedestal.

Matthew: They are.

Lori: Than other religious, than a rabbi or something. And so, yeah, you felt like you have to now live up to that standard that's been set for you by society and by your community.

Matthew: Yeah, because of the lifestyle, there's a certain aura, a spiritual or a special aura about it that people have these expectations. And I don't think that's helpful for priests, and I don't think it's good for the people either. So that's a topic for another conversation. The fact is, you're in that—and from a young age, even before being ordained a priest in this religious organization, I was part of—I was given leadership roles from a young age. And so that, again, just puts you under a lot of pressure where you live to show up and perform really well, and always have it all together. And almost like disconnect from certain elements of your humanity.

Lori: Talk a little bit more about that.

Matthew: In some environments the—as a society, we've grown a lot in our emotional awareness, social awareness, mental health awareness. I would say back a few decades ago, and in certain organizations that I was part of, that was not necessarily understood or taken into account. The emotional side was sort of repressed, all the sexuality especially when you become a priest. It’s kind of like, well, we don't really know what to do with this even though it's an integral part of who we are as human beings. And so, without proper training or formation or education in all of these areas, we kind of like, well, I'm just going to disconnect. And that happens in so many areas of life, so I'm not trying to bash just one culture or setting. I'm just comparing through my own life experience.

Lori: Yeah, exactly.

Matthew: Working in the military, I saw this very common as well, because there's a great parallel there, because of the military—again, I'm meant to be strong. I can't have problems. And yes, unconsciously, you're almost meant to disconnect. No one tells you that. No one expects you to do that, but that's sort of culturally, you’re in this culture and mentality, which is very—a lot of intangibles, a lot of invisible things, a lot of unconscious things. So people feel like, well, I got to kind of repress these things, disconnect to these things. So I did that, and there's a comfort in that. There's a comfort in doing that for a period of time, because then I don't have to deal with uncomfortable things. I don't have to deal with ambiguous things or things that I don't know what to do with them, so I just don't deal with them.

Lori: Right. If you're putting them in this box, you don't have to look at what's in the box.

Matthew: Right. Yes, and now it works for a while. It's sort of like what we would call a defense mechanism or a coping mechanism. But if that becomes the way you live over a long period of time, at some point, it's going to send a pretty expensive bill.

Lori: When did that bill show up for you and what did it look like?

Matthew: It's going to come—things come back to haunt you. Before I answer your question, can I use an example, when I work with priests or seminarians or in the military, I use it a lot as well was, naturally, we put things, whether it be experiences, whether it be emotions or thoughts, there's certain things that we put away in a closet or cupboard hoping that, because we don't kind of know what to do with it until we just—hoping it will disappear. And some things are there quietly and don't really bother us. There's other things that when we put them away in darkness, they grow, and they can begin to invisibly take over our life. And as I recall, they begin to have a massive stench. You can never see a stench, but it begins to invade everything. And that's an image I use for that example.

Lori: It's a great image.

Matthew: Things that we put away and they can begin to become all invasive, even if we can try to pretend that they're not there. And I remember in my life, I was, again, really forcing myself to make it look like I had it together. And I know I didn't, but I didn't know what to do with that. And over time, I began to realize that other people were also noticing. At the same time, other people don't know what to do with it either. They don't know how to say something to you or how to care. And so, kind of like, no one touches it.

Lori: Right. Everything's fine. Everybody pretends everything's fine.

Matthew: Everything's fine, yes. I think this came up, that bill that we're talking about, it came up over time. It came in the form of depression. It came in the form of anxiety. It came in the form of an identity crisis. It came in the form of what I would call disorder, sexual expressions, which is natural when people are depressed or confused. Everything looks for a way out, even sexuality, whether it be in pornography, whether it be in meaningless relationships because we're looking to ease the pain in some way.

Lori: Yeah.

Matthew: And so, for other people, it can happen in other types, so substance abuse, other times—depression has many expressions. And there's also functional depression, which can be humor, which can be being a workaholic, very active, which can be just act like everything's fine, which can be serving and caring for others. So anyway, there's many expressions. For me, it showed up in very much a deep discontent, a deep darkness inside of my heart and soul while I still tried to be a beacon of light for others. It's challenging.

Lori: Right.

Matthew: And then just in not totally integrated healthy sexuality and then identity crisis. So it came up in many ways. I didn't have the muscles or the ability to know what to do with it for a number of years. I tried to kind of deal with it, to talk to people. I didn't know how to do that that well. And then I didn't always find understanding. In that role, you're also careful about judgment. You're careful about anything I say can be used against you. So you end up also just being very cautious and careful.

Lori: Yeah, I was just going to ask, so somebody who is the person that other people go to for all of these issues that you're talking about, when you have them then, where do you go, right?

Matthew: Yes.

Lori: And I hear what you're saying about being careful about who you talk to and what you say because yeah, it's like, where does the doctor go for help when they have a medical issue or where does the spiritual leader go when they are the one that people come to for spiritual issues?

Matthew: And sometimes the doctors are the worst and sometimes the spiritual leaders are the worst in this. I love being there for others and I would like to say that I did it very well. I was very successful in all areas of ministry. But there was also a comfort there in that I didn't have to deal with my stuff.

Lori: Right. You could help other people dealing with theirs and then you didn't have to look at yours.

Matthew: Yes. And then, at some point, it comes back to bite you.

Lori: Right. And so, what happened? Was there a specific incident or what was the final straw or thing that pushed you to go, okay, I really can't do this anymore?

Matthew: Right. It was a long journey. So I would have to say from where I was sort of consciously going through a really rough time and I didn't know what to do, so when things finally began to snap or to break, I would say in about seven years.

Lori: Wow.

Matthew: So really what it was was, because there's a lot of different aspects to the story. I was in Rome. I was studying and I was working there. I had a pretty high-profile role there. And I was also doing a specialized degree. Part of that specialized degree was personal accompaniment. And in that, we had to do a very deep psychological assessment with a whole battery of tests. And I have to say that that was the first time that everything was sort of brought to the surface. My history, everything I was doing. And explained to me in a very understanding and holistic way of, everything that I was going through right now, in the big picture why this was happening to me and the seriousness of my situation. I was sort of trying to avoid it. Yeah, I'm going to work through it. I'm trying to figure it out.

At that point, I had already started to talk to a lot of people and figure things out. But this brought the gravity of my situation to fore. Yeah, we need to do something. So that was very liberating in one way. This as we say in some areas, the truth was saying—with the help of someone who really cared to be able to look at the truth of my life. And so, it was very liberating. And it was also liberating also that I could understand. What I was going through didn’t mean I was bad or there was anything wrong with me. They were symptoms of a lot of other things that needed to be dealt with. And so, liberating and very helpful. So that was the moment where really intensified to work on myself and then that led to saying, “You know what, I need to take a year off.”

I checked myself into inpatient care, where I was for four months doing very intense work with myself and then I went—part of my therapy was just really going back home. I had lived overseas for many, many years, so this was going back home and living with my dad. My mother had since passed away. So this year was what I call the year of coming home to myself. Rediscovering who Matthew is and working through everything. So I did the inpatient care for four months and then treatment and then I was at home doing—it was such a great year in so many ways. I did my coaching training. I was just able—it was about discovering me. Where did I come from, going back to my roots, going back to just being Matthew. I took up a job as a waiter, as a driver for a taxi company.

I didn't want people to know my back story, who I was, what I had done. So it was a lot of fun and it was very grounding because a part of me also said, not only do I want to discover myself, but I work with a lot of people and I want to know what it means to be a normal person who has to make ends meet. Being in the lifestyle that I was in, we could easily become disconnected from the reality of those lives.

Lori: Right, giving advice that was theoretically sound, but not realistically.

Matthew: Right, and maybe not always understanding of the challenges that people have. So it was such a great experience.

Lori: It's interesting that when you were doing the work on coming—what you said, coming home to yourself, you were literally home, like physically and literally home where you grew up.

Matthew: I was. Yes. And for me, that was important, challenging as well, because it's going back to where I came from and I hadn't really lived—I hadn’t lived there. I had been away and so, people had seen me once in a while. There were a lot of questions and a lot of explanations.

Lori: Yeah. Right.

Matthew: It’s like, you were doing this and now you don't dress like this. You’re not doing any of that, or people didn't even ask about it. But they were just the normal—

Lori: Right, the gossip. What's going on with Matthew?

Matthew: It was upsetting because I always want people, if they have anything to say to me, I prefer that they talk to me directly. But again, this culture almost—people don't know how to do that.

Lori: Yeah. So you now, because it's in your heart, I believe, continue to serve, but in a different capacity.

Matthew: Yes, in a different capacity and now I have to make a living off of it. Before, it was—everything was provided for, but I didn't get paid for my services. So learning to sell services is a whole learning curve. And also, just the value of that and also, learning so much the process, but yes, continuing to serve people. I serve people in what I would call leadership or influential roles, because there's a lot here. But leadership, authority, influence, power, they are all part of the human experience. They have been and they always will be, whether we like it or not. And I've seen authority, leadership, power used so well so many times. And when used well, it's very life-giving and empowering. But when it's not used well, it’s used in a dysfunctional manner or toxic manner, unhealthy manner, it's very destructive.

Even more so in family and faith contexts because family and faith touches the deeper fibers of the human person. So that's why I'm very much in love with the complex beauty of the human person and very passionate about this whole topic of leadership because of what I said, because it can do so much good, but it can also do so much damage.

Lori: Yeah. Are you working with organizations as a whole or with the leaders individually?

Matthew: I can do both. I do both. It's not only the corporate world. There’s the non-profit world. There's the religious world. Any type of faith-based world. There's political, there's celebrities. Every environment has its functionality and dysfunctionality.

Lori: Yeah.

Matthew: And when I talk about leadership, I talk about this holistic approach of how I lead myself, how I lead in my inner circles. So I do some couples work as well. How I lead professionally and how I lead in an organizational context. I was fortunate to be or unfortunately, and I see fortunate to be part of a very complex, global complex organizations. Whether it be the religious order I was part of, whether it be the Catholic Church, whether it be the United States Navy. And now, I work with people in very complex global organizations with doing leadership coaching, consulting and education. So yes, there's that element of knowing how to navigate complex global cohorts.

Lori: I'm completely ignorant on this, but I'm going to guess that there aren't very many people who have done what you've done in the past, and then move out of it to continue serving in this different capacity. So that gives you a really unique, and I think the word unique is overused a lot of times, but you truly do have a unique perspective on what you're talking about like the complex communities or complex organizations, right?

Matthew: Yes, I would like to think so. I think corporate America, but anyway, there's a lot we could say there. But corporate America kind of thinks it's the best thing since whatever. And so, there's a lot of bias. So corporate America has a hard—or corporate worlds in general, has a hard time conceptualizing my life experience and seeing how it can bring value. So that's been very interesting to discover because they just don't know what to make of my past and how that could be valuable because they’re like, you don't have corporate experience. But I think there's obviously bias there. There's prejudice or whatever other words you want to use, unconscious. So I think that they miss out on a certain way, but they're very limited in that. But yes, I think—I know people that have done the same thing that I've done as regards to moves from professional ministry towards a similar life that I do. And so, yeah, I think we do have a lot to offer.

Lori: Yeah. I mean, isn’t the Catholic Church as an organization, is one of the oldest and—

Matthew: It’s the longest and largest standing global organization ever.

Lori: Right. So to me, when I hear you say the corporate world doesn't see how your experience is relevant, it just kind of blows my mind. What are they missing?

Matthew: Well, I think it's this sort of this prejudice around faith nowadays where it's—if you were in the world of faith, either you're going to come here and you're going to force it upon us, which again, is very inaccurate or if you were in a position of leadership in that, I don't know, you read the Bible, you prayed all day, you don’t know -

Lori: Right. You don't have the business experience.

Matthew: Right, or any of this. It’s more ignorance than anything.

Lori: Yeah, yeah.

Matthew: Ignorance can always limit us.

Lori: Absolutely. Yeah, that's so interesting. I'll be interested in watching your journey for how this develops because I just think it's so cool. Not that what you went through—like this transition to me, I see how much value you could bring to organizations. And so, how do you evolve in showing them that and then actually doing it. So they hire you and then doing it to help them evolve their organizations.

Matthew: Yes. So it is fascinating, so stand by as we go through this.

Lori: Yeah. That's another interesting point to pull out in terms of, for people who are listening is that, just because what you're doing doesn't necessarily make sense to the people you're trying to sell it to or share it with, doesn't mean that it's not still a good idea.

Matthew: Right. Yes, and I think people—a lot of times, I saw people that do find value in what I do and the people that know me, they know the credibility I think I have as of my background. I think especially in the coaching world, it's an added level of credibility that, holy smokes, this person has worked with thousands of people across cultures and borders. So the intercultural experience, the international experience and languages and just working with thousands and thousands of people. I think it gives me a huge advantage if we're going to say it that way.

Lori: Yeah, absolutely. How many languages do you speak?

Matthew: Three, so English, Italian and Spanish.

Lori: Got you.

Matthew: So a lot of my services, I offer them as bilingual. So everything that I do is in English and in Spanish.

Lori: Got it, yeah. Cool. I was thinking of something else and then it just went out of my head, but maybe it'll come back. First, let me ask you about—and this seems like now, given your background, maybe a funny question in my head. But the whole hype song because again, because people think, oh, priests, what are they listening to for—to get a boost of energy? Is it some kind of—

Matthew: I remember the hype song it was Back in Black, right?

Lori: Right. And so, this is so—again, it's kind of like blowing my mind or other people, but that's because of the stereotype of, oh yeah, priests are just very religious. They don't listen to rock music, but of course you do. You're human.

Matthew: Right, we do. And there’s different levels. I'm not a big AC/DC fan, but I just love that rhythm. There's a few reasons. I wore black for 30 years.

Lori: Right.

Matthew: And then, I'm from Boston and that's the song that they use when the Boston Bruins, the hockey team in Boston, when they come out, they use Back in Black because they wear black as a uniform. I'm a drummer, so I grew up drumming and so, I just love the—I really like music and I love different rhythms. But I saw that on your questionnaire. The first song that popped in and I was like, I'm not going to think about other songs. That was the first song that popped into my mind.

Lori: I love it. Yeah, going with the first thing that comes to mind because that's the true thing.

Matthew: Even though not literally.

Lori: I love it. It's so perfect. If people want to continue a conversation with you, where is the best place for them to find you?

Matthew: Fine is a 4-letter word podcast.

Lori: Yes, yes. But—

Matthew: They can find me on my socials. Matthew Brackett Official is my handle for a lot of social media. Matthew Brackett on LinkedIn and then my website

Lori: Okay.

Matthew: And my YouTube site as well where they can find a lot of interviews that I've done, content that I produce.

Lori: Excellent. I will put links to all of that in the show notes so people can find it easily and click on it and go straight to you.

Matthew: Yes, that'd be very helpful. I look forward to that. I am looking for opportunities to continue to engage, whether it be in interviews, whether it be another podcast, whether it be speaking engagements. So much to share with people. And I think, as we've talked about, I have a unique background which creates a lot of curiosity.

Lori: Yeah, exactly. It's curiosity and we haven't known each other very long. And from that, from the time that I have known you, you just bring such a calming energy.

Matthew: I hope that doesn't mean that I'm putting you to sleep.

Lori: No, not at all. Not at all. It's a very calming and grounding energy.

Matthew: Well, thank you. I think that's just fortunate to all of the years of experience that I’ve been able to have and it has helped me to do that. I’m very fortunate, very grateful.

Lori: Yeah, no doubt.

Matthew: I’m hoping to bring that to people.

Lori: Matthew, thank you so much for joining me today on Fine is a 4-Letter Word.

Matthew: Thank you, Lori. Thank you very much for the opportunity.




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