This episode of the Speak In Flow podcast dives deep into entrepreneurial thinking, exploring how it can enhance your leadership vision and foster creative leadership. Host Melinda is joined by Keo Sar, Chief Operating Officer of Matter Product Studio and angel investor, as they discuss his personal and professional journey. From surviving as a refugee to building and scaling startups, Keo’s story is a testament to resilience, innovation, and purpose-driven leadership. Listeners will gain valuable insights on integrating personal growth into their leadership strategies and embracing creativity to overcome challenges in both business and life.

In This Episode, You Will Learn:

Vision Beyond Goals

Keo distinguishes between goals and vision. While goals are concrete, vision is broader and filled with possibility. Leaders must dream beyond specific objectives, inspiring teams with a bigger picture for the future.

Embracing Adversity

Keo’s personal story of being born in a refugee camp, and his family’s journey out of Cambodia, offers powerful lessons about resilience and overcoming adversity. He talks about how this background fuels his passion for helping founders in emerging markets, reminding us that while talent is equally distributed, opportunity is not.

The Power of Curiosity and Learning

One of Keo’s superpowers is his ability to learn and reinvent himself. He explains how his father’s belief in continuous learning—beyond formal education—allowed him to thrive in the tech world and beyond. This mindset, along with Keo’s innate curiosity, enables him to navigate uncertainty and build innovative solutions for his clients and startups.

The Journey to Fulfillment

Keo reflects on the achievements he’s reached in his career, from executive roles at startups to angel investing. Despite these external successes, he discusses the internal realization that fulfillment doesn’t come solely from accomplishments—it requires deeper alignment with one's purpose.

Coping with Loss and Finding Purpose

Keo opens up about the tragic loss of his cousin, who took his own life. This event deeply affected Keo, prompting him to reassess his priorities and dedicate himself to making an impact in the world. His vulnerability and reflections on grief remind us of the importance of emotional connections and self-care on the path to success.

Memorable Quotes:

“Talent is equally distributed, but opportunities and access aren't.”

“I've always been so focused on achieving my goals that I don't know if I've actually really taken the time to just enjoy it.”

“I always bet on myself to figure it out along the way, because the reality is, I don't know everything.”

“It took me six months to make peace with the loss of my cousin. I had to take a step back and reassess what was truly valuable in life.”

Resources Mentioned:

Connect with Keo Sar:

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/ACoAAAGCGxIB3yUedIePf9sqng_evMIMMgtFcB0

X - @keo_sar

About the Guest:

Keo is the COO & Partner at Matter Product Studio. Matter Product Studio is a boutique technology consulting firm focused on AI-powered digital transformation, implementing real-world AI solutions for mid-market and enterprise clients to materially improve efficiency and output. He is also an angel investor and helps develop emerging innovation ecosystems in the Western Balkans, MENA, and SEA regions, respectively, by supporting founders through workshops, mentorship, and advisory. He also graduated as one of the top fellows from an Investor Accelerator program run by Dream VC.

Fun-facts:

• Keo was born in a refugee camp in a jungle in Thailand
• He wrote a book in 2nd grade and had it illustrated by a classmate
• He’s run at least 500 miles a year since 2019

About Melinda:

Melinda Lee is a Presentation Skills Expert, Speaking Coach, and nationally renowned Motivational Speaker. She holds an M.A. in Organizational Psychology, is an Insights Practitioner, and is a Certified Professional in Talent Development as well as Certified in Conflict Resolution. For over a decade, Melinda has researched and studied the state of “flow” and used it as a proven technique to help corporate leaders and business owners amplify their voices, access flow, and present their mission in a more powerful way to achieve results.

She has been the TEDx Berkeley Speaker Coach and has worked with hundreds of executives and teams from Facebook, Google, Microsoft, Caltrans, Bay Area Rapid Transit System, and more. Currently, she lives in San Francisco, California, and is breaking the ancestral lineage of silence.

Website: https://speakinflow.com/

Facebook: https://m.facebook.com/speakinflow

Instagram: https://instagram.com/speakinflow

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/mpowerall

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Are they

2

Melinda Lee: welcome, dear listeners, to the speak and flow podcast? Where we dive into unique experiences to help you and your team achieve maximum potential and flow.

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Melinda Lee: I am so excited for you to be here today.

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Melinda Lee: We have Keo Saar. He's the chief operating officer for matter product studio.

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Melinda Lee: Hi, Keo. Nice for you to join us.

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Keo Sar: My pleasure, Melinda, happy to be here.

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Keo Sar: I'm forward to it.

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Melinda Lee: Oh, I'm so. I'm looking forward to it, too, because I know your powerful story, and I'm so excited for the audience to hear it before we dive into your journey. Tell us more about the success that you have achieved and accomplished, or your experiences, and what you do as the CEO, and also angel, investor.

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Keo Sar: Hmm, yeah. Well, I'm the as you mentioned, I'm the CEO at matter product studio. We're a technology consultancy and we also build

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Keo Sar: technology for mid market and enterprise companies centered around AI. My background

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Keo Sar: is in building and scaling tech companies. I've been at 5 different startups. 2 unicorns. One got acquired.

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Melinda Lee: Wow!

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Keo Sar: Made it all the way to a series B before it you know died, but you know.

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Keo Sar: be able to make it to a series. B is still a a journey and a worthwhile journey for for any startup.

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Keo Sar: because it takes a lot of work to get there.

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Keo Sar: And then.

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Keo Sar: more recently, as part of my role at matter product studio cleaning up the operations, getting it more streamlined. Recentering how we approach our, you know, revenue production

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Keo Sar: and then making sure that ultimately, like our clients, have the best experience with us. And that we're able to deliver the quality of work that we we say we will and go above and beyond for our clients.

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Keo Sar: Besides that, I get really excited and passionate about helping to develop emerging market ecosystems.

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Keo Sar: So I work as a mentor advisor and an angel investors in

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Keo Sar: emerging markets in Central Eastern Europe.

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Keo Sar: and then have now started to take a look at Southeast Asia as well, and I've done some work in the Middle East and North Africa.

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Keo Sar: So. You know, because my my philosophy, when I approach these things, is that you know, talent is equally distributed. But opportunities and access aren't so

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Keo Sar: part of my my mission and my goal is to be a bit of an equalizer. Take, you know, my experience and resources and network to help founders that I think, are, you know, building impactful companies? To

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Keo Sar: take the next step in their in their journey? Whether that ends up being successful or not. We. We can't say

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Keo Sar: but I I'll do everything I can to help them along that journey.

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Melinda Lee: Right, right? And you and you've acquired so many resources and experiences and knowledge and people network

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Melinda Lee: and it had so much success with the 2 unicorns, with helping startups with the with the Coo at Matter product studio.

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Melinda Lee: You've had so much success.

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Melinda Lee: and yet I know, and I'd love for you to share

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Melinda Lee: the journey, because it

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Melinda Lee: overnight.

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Keo Sar: No, it it certainly, is, is not an an overnight journey, and it's typically meandering. But

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Keo Sar: I think we have to start at the beginning. My! My background's I'm Cambodian.

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Keo Sar: My my parents are refugees from Cambodia. A lot of people don't know

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Keo Sar: what happened in Cambodia during the seventies and eighties. But there was a war that was happening there as part of the what the Us. Called the you know, Indochina theater

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Keo Sar: and we got caught up in that

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Keo Sar: the war started in 75 that led to

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Keo Sar: a genocide that wiped out.

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Keo Sar: you know, something like a 4th to a 3rd of the population.

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Keo Sar: During a 4 and a half year period. But the award so

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Keo Sar: was almost a 20 year war which not a lot of people talk about.

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Keo Sar: As a result of that, my my parents escaped Cambodia. So my mom

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Keo Sar: escaped 1st into Red Cross refugee camps in Thailand. My dad

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Keo Sar: his story is slightly different. Because during that time they split men and women into different camps. My dad was actually scheduled to be executed.

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Keo Sar: The day he escaped. because the Vietnamese army.

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Keo Sar: yeah.

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Keo Sar: some people would call it invade, some would call it rescued. We're not here to discuss that.

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Keo Sar: But yeah, they came in and all hell broke loose, and that's how how we actually escaped. And found his way to Thailand.

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Keo Sar: She was Refugee camp and found my mom amongst. You know you're talking about

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Keo Sar: tens of thousands of other refugees.

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Melinda Lee: Oh, my!

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Keo Sar: Then, yeah,

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Keo Sar: and that's where I was born. So I was born in a refugee camp in Thailand. Called

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Keo Sar: was the name of it and commune 6

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Keo Sar: 5, almost 5 years ago, to the date, I convinced. You know, some of my best friends to go back to Thailand with me to find this refugee camp.

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Keo Sar: and and we found it.

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Melinda Lee: Wow!

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Melinda Lee: What was that to see like where you are today and where you saw started born? What was that like for you at the refugee camp?

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Keo Sar: Oh, my, I it was! It was so. It was such an out of body experience for for me personally.

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Keo Sar: because

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Keo Sar: yeah, I I stopped believing in coincidences, and the story is a year before

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Keo Sar: that the trip actually happened. I was doing a lot of research on where the camp was. And if there were any organizations still connected to the camp that could point me in the right direction

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Keo Sar: about an organization on Facebook, where they

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Keo Sar: more or less. We're like caretakers of what was left of the camp.

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Keo Sar: and it was funny. 6 months before the trip.

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Keo Sar: I I asked them like, Hey, like I'm still. I'm still planning on coming. They're like great.

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Keo Sar: When you get to the site

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Keo Sar: there's a small hut. There's some keys.

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Keo Sar: Take the keys. Let yourself in.

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Keo Sar: do a self tour, and then make sure you lock up and return the keys. I'm like.

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Melinda Lee: Wow!

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Keo Sar: Okay, that's fine. But A month before, a month beforehand I wrote them again, just to confirm. I was like.

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Keo Sar: Hey?

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Keo Sar: I'm still coming. I just want to confirm that. You know you someone, or you know the keys will be there, and we can go in.

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Keo Sar: And they were like, well, we actually have a caretaker now of the property.

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Keo Sar: And he can meet you and give you a tour. I'm like that's even better. That's wonderful.

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Keo Sar: Turns out he wasn't just a caretaker, this gentleman, he was so gracious and so nice

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Keo Sar: was he worked at the refugee camp.

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Melinda Lee: Okay.

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Keo Sar: From the time it opened in the seventies to the time it closed in the in, the in the early nineties.

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Keo Sar: and he spoke

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Keo Sar: French. He spoke Thai. He spoke English. He spoke Khmer, which is official language, Cambodia, and I'm pretty sure he spoke Laos as well, and he gave us the entire history.

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Keo Sar: And I I told him. Well, could you take me to commune? 6, cause that's where my life began.

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Keo Sar: And he's like, Yeah, I can take you there. So apparently there was a bunch of mosquitoes, because it's literally the jungle.

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Keo Sar: It's at the foot of this mountain, and my my friends that were with me.

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Keo Sar: They're like, you just walk through the jungle. We didn't follow you because there was a bunch of mosquitoes. I honestly didn't even feel it.

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Keo Sar: And you know I got to commune 6 and just stood there. I was like

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Keo Sar: I I don't. I still don't know what was going through my heart and mind at the time, but I'm like this is where my life began.

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Melinda Lee: Wow!

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Keo Sar: And yeah. So we, you know.

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Keo Sar: that's that's where that part of the story begins. We we got sponsored by some family friends in San Diego, California.

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Keo Sar: That's where I grew up. Before that, before coming to San Diego. We had a pit. Stop, if you will.

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Keo Sar: in the Philippines. It was in a region called Maron.

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Keo Sar: and they had what they called refugee processing centers, where they got you

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Keo Sar: ready to acclimate within the country that you're going to. In this case, the Us. But a lot of the Southeast Asia Diaspora ended up in Canada, in France and

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Keo Sar: Australia. We're kind of the and the Us. Obviously were the main spots.

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Keo Sar: And the purpose of this transition camp was just to get you ready for life in this new country.

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Keo Sar: And yeah. So we we ended up in San Diego, where I grew up and then for university. I

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Keo Sar: decided to move to San Francisco. Did my undergraduate degree in creative writing, and then got my got my masters in finance.

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Keo Sar: I was working at 2 fortune, 100 companies only to find I was not a corporate person whatsoever.

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Keo Sar: And that's when my startup journey began.

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Keo Sar: And

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Keo Sar: yeah, that's that's the. There's obviously a lot of things in between, and we could talk about those, too. But.

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Melinda Lee: Yeah, well, I mean, I want to touch upon your dad. I think your dad had a huge influence.

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Melinda Lee: To.

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Keo Sar: Hmm.

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Melinda Lee: Yeah.

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Keo Sar: Yeah. My, my dad was a disciplinarian.

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Melinda Lee: Yeah.

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Keo Sar: He very much believed in

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Keo Sar: and discipline, but I think more than anything else. He also believed in

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Keo Sar: education and education for him didn't necessarily mean school.

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Keo Sar: It was.

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Keo Sar: How do you constantly learn and and challenge yourself in that regard? Because his

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Keo Sar: philosophy and he used to tell me this all the time was like, look, you know.

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Keo Sar: we we don't have a lot of resources like, you know, we grew up on welfare, government assistance. Everything like that so? Money was, you know, extremely tight.

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Keo Sar: So

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Keo Sar: he felt strongly that if we got educated

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Keo Sar: because of his experience, you know, in in Cambodia, with the war, and everything like that's something

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Keo Sar: that can't be taken from you.

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Keo Sar: And if you, if you learn how to learn.

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Keo Sar: You'll always be able to reinvent yourself.

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Keo Sar: So so that's

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Keo Sar: so, that's something that that's continuously stuck with me. And when I talk to people, and you know, from time to time. They're like, oh, tell me what your superpower is.

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Keo Sar: and I just say my superpower is just learning.

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Melinda Lee: And reinventing, just.

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Keo Sar: And reinventing and just figuring it out.

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Melinda Lee: Yeah. But how powerful that is. I mean, that's why you're great at helping these startups to to get their, you know, to get to where they need to be, because, as startups, there is no path, there is no, there's no academics, there is no guideline right? And so not meaning. There's no academics, but there's no pathway like in academics. There's like a career path, or there's a you take Xyz course and you graduate. There is no path. And so that

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Melinda Lee: mindset of it's okay. You can still learn. You can still invent, grow whether it's in school or whether it's your business

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Melinda Lee: to constantly have that mindset. Is what you you've taken away from your dad, which is so. Yeah.

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Keo Sar: Yeah. And I would also add, you know, he

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Keo Sar: He was also very good about

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Keo Sar: letting me letting me explore my curiosities.

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Melinda Lee: Yeah.

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Keo Sar: He didn't say I had to be a doctor, a lawyer, engineer, he's like.

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Keo Sar: What do you want to learn? What do you want to do like try it. Figure it out and you know, he he had this trust that

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Keo Sar: I would be able to to figure out ultimately which

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Keo Sar: you know, especially coming from an an Asian background.

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Keo Sar: And hearing stories about, you know, Asian tiger parents, if you will and like, you know, it's a jay shetty who has, you know, a podcast and that you know pretty sure you know who he is. It's very like

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Keo Sar: He's a British Indian, and i 1 of the things he he said that made me laugh out loud was.

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Keo Sar: it's like, yeah, you know, in in our household. You had to be a doctor, lawyer, lawyer.

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Keo Sar: or a failure. He's like, so I'm basically a failure in my family's eye. That's

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Keo Sar: not the case anymore. But.

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Melinda Lee: Right.

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Keo Sar: I really.

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Keo Sar: I really appreciated that about my my dad.

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Keo Sar: and yeah, it's carried me a long way, being able to

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Keo Sar: give myself the room to like, create, and

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Keo Sar: to your to your comment, reinvent things.

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Melinda Lee: Yeah, and have the huge success. Like with your roles, with with making money and

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Melinda Lee: and with your drive and working hard, you've accomplished a lot

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Melinda Lee: internally, externally.

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Melinda Lee: What was that like for you when you acquired so much externally? What was that like internally for you?

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Keo Sar: Oh, oof! That's

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Keo Sar: That's a heavy question in in a lot of ways, right? Because I I think

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Keo Sar: because of our our background being refugees. There's always a flight to safety.

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Melinda Lee: Yeah.

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Keo Sar: And and you you want to be sit like my mom was definitely the more cautious one where you know I would be at a job, and I would tell her as an example, mom, I just got promoted.

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Keo Sar: and she would be happy for me. But then there's a but right her, but was.

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Keo Sar: don't piss anyone off like. Don't piss your boss off like they might fire you your coworkers might be jealous of you, so you gotta be careful about that.

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Melinda Lee: Gosh!

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Keo Sar: Yeah, and you know it. It was

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Keo Sar: I. I tried to understand it as much as I could.

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Keo Sar: but you know I I'll never fully understand, because I I didn't go through what what she went through.

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Keo Sar: During the war, losing, you know, family members, her younger sisters and things like that. So that's that's not that, not something I can relate to. I can try to empathize with her in that case. But

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Keo Sar: It was also something that I didn't let hold me back, because.

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Keo Sar: you know, going back to like I've worked hard for this.

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Keo Sar: I know that

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Keo Sar: and you know, in in terms of the the success that

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Keo Sar: I've had. It's

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Keo Sar: for me it's going back to.

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Keo Sar: I always bet on myself to to figure it out along the way, because the reality is I I don't know everything. I still don't know everything

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Keo Sar: and especially in the startup world. You're just constantly trying to figure things out.

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Melinda Lee: Right.

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Keo Sar: And the companies that I think succeed the entrepreneurs that I think succeed. And the founders they're just really great at figuring things out in time.

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Melinda Lee: Right, right.

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Keo Sar: It's it's really about your ability to quickly problem, solve for anything. In the moment.

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Melinda Lee: Thanks.

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Keo Sar: While still building for the long term.

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Melinda Lee: Right, right, right.

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Keo Sar: And and if you can really master those skills it, it can take you a long way.

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Melinda Lee: And you mentioned and you're gonna continue to do that. And you've continued

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Melinda Lee: to have the success and you mentioned that sometimes at 1 point you

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Melinda Lee: you stopped and you thought, Okay, is this all? There is.

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Keo Sar: Yeah.

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Keo Sar: I, yeah, to to more concretely answer that part.

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Keo Sar: When I

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Keo Sar: began my startup career, I I had this like 5 Year Plan.

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Keo Sar: right? I was like, I'm gonna be an executive at at a startup and get into the into into the C-suite which I made happen.

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Keo Sar: But

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Keo Sar: you know I I got there. And my 1st question. It wasn't.

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Keo Sar: You know, I I had a a brief moment of excitement. I'm like, Yeah, this is amazing like, I did it. You know, I was like, I'm here.

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Melinda Lee: That's funny.

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Melinda Lee: but.

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Keo Sar: Afterwards it was just like.

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Keo Sar: Oh.

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Keo Sar: like, is this, is this all there is to it?

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Melinda Lee: Yeah.

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Keo Sar: You know there wasn't. There wasn't after that initial excitement. I I wouldn't say there was a a sense of fulfillment on on my end.

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Keo Sar: because.

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Keo Sar: you know, part of it was I I've always been so focused on achieving my goals.

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Keo Sar: That I don't know if I've actually very really taken the time to just enjoy it.

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Keo Sar: And for for me this was a, you know, a check off the box.

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Keo Sar: I wanted to achieve this goal of being a an executive at a startup, making X amount of money

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Keo Sar: and achieve those things. But it felt hollow in a way.

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Melinda Lee: Oh!

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Keo Sar: Because it didn't really speak

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Keo Sar: to like my true nature of having a a bigger impact on the world and being able to help more people.

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Melinda Lee: No.

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Keo Sar: And

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Keo Sar: that's you know, that's when

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Keo Sar: I. So at the last startup I was at, I was the chief revenue officer. We you know

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Keo Sar: we did enough revenue over a 2 year period while I was there that we were able to raise the 25 million dollar series B,

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Keo Sar: at which point. I thought

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Keo Sar: it was a good time to take a step back

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Keo Sar: and away from, you know the grind of a startup. So, and

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Keo Sar: I would also add to that. You know there was

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Keo Sar: a personal tragedy

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Keo Sar: that that came up during that time as well. So my

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Keo Sar: cousin, you know, unfortunately took his own life.

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Keo Sar: you know, not too long before we got to to the to the finish of the the raising the

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Keo Sar: series. B. And it really.

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Keo Sar: it really took a toll on me in the sense that

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Keo Sar: it accelerated my

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Keo Sar: process of reassessing everything that was important.

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Keo Sar: because.

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Keo Sar: you know, I think in in our quest for for achievement.

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Keo Sar: We often miss the the little things and the little signals in our lives. With with the people. You know that that we love.

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Keo Sar: and

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Keo Sar: I felt that was

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Keo Sar: part of it, because, you know, we we spoke not too long before.

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Keo Sar: He took his own life, and it it haunted me for months, because.

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Keo Sar: you know, like the question that kept coming to me was like, Did I miss something, you know? Should I have been

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Keo Sar: checking in more often.

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Keo Sar: should I give him better advice, and I'll never know

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Keo Sar: I'll never know. And I it took me a long time to to make peace with that. But

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Keo Sar: in that process

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Keo Sar: It

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Keo Sar: forced me to take a step back to reassess what was actually a value in my life. And

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Keo Sar: yeah, for me, it wasn't like the money or the.

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Keo Sar: The achievements anymore. It was defined by freedom and impact.

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Keo Sar: And the freedom was, you know, freedom of, like my time and commitment.

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Keo Sar: Freedom to create

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Keo Sar: the things that I wanted to create and get involved in.

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Melinda Lee: And.

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Keo Sar: And

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Keo Sar: I I think I wrote this whole manifesto on it. And I I just had this like out between, like outpouring of of emotions, and everything that I felt like had just been dormant, for you know, a number of years.

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Melinda Lee: Yeah.

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Keo Sar: and and I took a mini sabbatical to be able to to do that. And

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Keo Sar: the second part of that was looking for ways to make bigger impact. And that's when I started getting involved into these emerging market ecosystems and trying to see

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Keo Sar: what founders are building something that I think, has a potential to affect humanity in in a positive way.

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Keo Sar: and figure out how I can support them.

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Melinda Lee: Yeah, how special.

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Melinda Lee: how special of that. And and

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Melinda Lee: no, I'm so sad to hear that that your cousin did what he did.

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Melinda Lee: and

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Melinda Lee: and yet like you. And then that drove you to go down and reflect and question.

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Melinda Lee: and and then, you know, to actually turn that into something that is driving you to change humanity.

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Melinda Lee: thank you, for you know your life, your cousin, I mean, and I'm sorry. Do you remember? Was there a sign when he went to you.

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Melinda Lee: What did he say? Was there a moment that you, that in your.

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Keo Sar: Mike.

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Melinda Lee: I felt like I should have stopped at that moment because I'm diving into communication here, cause you mentioned in our quest to do more and achieve more. There are moments where people come into our lives.

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Melinda Lee: and I'm wondering, was there something in your heart where you're like? There's something really wrong here, or maybe there wasn't. I'm just curious.

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Melinda Lee: Or were you? So

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Melinda Lee: maybe just didn't know. Do I'm curious of like breaking that down more.

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Keo Sar: Yeah, that's that's a great question.

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Keo Sar: And there was a few months

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Keo Sar: cause we we text each other relatively regularly.

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Keo Sar: and one, you know, one of the last messages I I received them in was like.

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Keo Sar: Hey, guys, can we talk? I'm like.

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Keo Sar: Yeah, of course, like, you know. And it's not something that

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Keo Sar: he texted regularly.

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Melinda Lee: You would say that, yeah.

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Keo Sar: Yeah.

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Keo Sar: so

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Keo Sar: this was.

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Keo Sar: yeah. This was October

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Keo Sar: of 2021 is when you know he he took his own life.

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Keo Sar: The last conversation we had

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Keo Sar: was August of 2021

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Keo Sar: and I I just remembered so clearly because I I was on this

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Keo Sar: work trip to Seattle. I was meeting a client.

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Keo Sar: I was meeting an employee. I was at a hotel.

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Keo Sar: and you know I I had this hour long phone call with him, and

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Keo Sar: he just seems so lost.

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Keo Sar: And the biggest question

288

Keo Sar: that he was trying to answer or you know, asking me to help him? Answer was, what was his purpose?

289

Keo Sar: And Yeah.

290

Keo Sar: how do you like? How do you find that purpose?

291

Melinda Lee: Yeah.

292

Keo Sar: Which is.

293

Keo Sar: I don't know. I I don't remember what I said to him.

294

Keo Sar: Because it's it's such.

295

Keo Sar: It can be so nebulous.

296

Melinda Lee: Yes.

297

Melinda Lee: and.

298

Keo Sar: So.

299

Melinda Lee: Do lists.

300

Keo Sar: Personal.

301

Melinda Lee: Yes.

302

Keo Sar: As well, because

303

Keo Sar: that that purpose is so. It's different for each person.

304

Melinda Lee: Yeah.

305

Keo Sar: You know, and I I might have said like, well, you know what are, what are the things that you can't, you know. Take off your mind and like

306

Keo Sar: like, what are the things that get you excited about working on? So just giving him kind of a series of questions to to ask

307

Melinda Lee: Right.

308

Keo Sar: Because I you know I

309

Keo Sar: I don't know. I don't know how to solve these things.

310

Melinda Lee: No.

311

Keo Sar: Answer, and.

312

Melinda Lee: I don't think that was your job. I mean, I think you need to do it. That was brilliant, and, like you asked them the question

313

Melinda Lee: question. And do you remember if he was able to say something like, or was he quiet.

314

Keo Sar: No, I I mean it. Was it? He was quiet and it it was.

315

Keo Sar: yeah, he he said.

316

Keo Sar: Like I'm lost. I don't feel like I'm contributing.

317

Keo Sar: Yeah,

318

Keo Sar: And in

319

Keo Sar: in the note I don't know what the whole note said that he left, but the part that

320

Keo Sar: was was read to me. Said something

321

Keo Sar: along the lines of like.

322

Keo Sar: I've been fighting demons for a long time, and no one else can help me.

323

Melinda Lee: But then.

324

Melinda Lee: yeah.

325

Keo Sar: So I,

326

Keo Sar: yeah, there's there's a lot of unknowns. And I I think over time you, you learn to to make peace with the the unknowns, because otherwise it can it just it drives you crazy.

327

Melinda Lee: Well, and I I mean, I think, honoring, I think, in terms of when I know what I know about communication is like when you

328

Melinda Lee: try to solve for them. It doesn't work.

329

Melinda Lee: And you really listen. Going back to listening

330

Melinda Lee: and those words that he's using are so heavy and feeling that with him, taking a moment.

331

Melinda Lee: I don't think that was the time to try to give him the answer, which is, that's why you're asking.

332

Keo Sar: And.

333

Melinda Lee: Just to help him.

334

Melinda Lee: But I there's so much there that he needed to process to, even before he even finds out what his purpose is because he's sitting in a lot of shame and like, who am I? So I think that's it requires a lot, and I want to like, encourage everybody to really pay attention when people use words like that to really just listen.

335

Melinda Lee: and not even sometimes have solutions. But listen.

336

Melinda Lee: and then hug them. Hold them, remind them that they're worthy. Remind you. And but

337

Melinda Lee: maybe not even just in your words. It could be action. I think. I remember what you said to me last time.

338

Melinda Lee: Do you need a hug, or do you need advice, or you? Do you need to be listened to? What was it.

339

Keo Sar: Yeah, so the it it's it. I heard this on a podcast.

340

Melinda Lee: Yeah.

341

Keo Sar: I think the gentleman's name is

342

Keo Sar: Matthew Abrams or Abraham. He's a he's a communications professor at Stanford. He does a podcast.

343

Keo Sar: And he was just talking about how to communicate simply but effectively.

344

Melinda Lee: Yeah.

345

Keo Sar: And

346

Keo Sar: you know, in in certain situations before. And they they taught this as part of

347

Keo Sar: Elementary school training for teachers. I think it was like in the northeast, or something. I don't remember exactly, but they taught the teachers before

348

Keo Sar: they started down the road of you know, I'm trying to problem solve asking the student. You know. Do you want to be heard?

349

Keo Sar: Do you want to be hugged, or do you want to be helped?

350

Melinda Lee: Yeah, it's like.

351

Keo Sar: That's so simple and can be so effective.

352

Melinda Lee: Right? Right? So it's in those moments, because they need to process in the way that

353

Melinda Lee: will support them, empower them. And that means that sometimes we have to take a step back to give them what they need, and.

354

Melinda Lee: You. You may not be that Savior, you, you being here. And that moment was what he needed.

355

Melinda Lee: You ask questions. It sounded like you were there for a long time at, you know, talking to him and listening to him, but at the same time we also want to empower people that they can.

356

Keo Sar: Hmm.

357

Melinda Lee: Be them for themselves. They need to do what they need to do for themselves.

358

Melinda Lee: Yes.

359

Keo Sar: Absolutely.

360

Melinda Lee: So I, utilizing what you said, that simple framework of Do you want to be heard, hugged or helped.

361

Melinda Lee: and and then giving you the rest. The outcome is really

362

Melinda Lee: up to the universe. Up to this person.

363

Keo Sar: Yeah.

364

Melinda Lee: And.

365

Keo Sar: And for me it was, you know, it took practice. Because I naturally

366

Keo Sar: I

367

Keo Sar: I'm I'm a problem so.

368

Melinda Lee: Want to. You want.

369

Keo Sar: Actually, when something comes up, I'm like.

370

Melinda Lee: Right, right.

371

Keo Sar: This is what we're gonna do.

372

Melinda Lee: Exactly exactly. And that doesn't help people. You know that sometimes that even turns them off. So so yeah, so stepping back and like, yeah, giving them what they need, allowing them to process and trusting that the outcome is what

373

Melinda Lee: is what their soul has wanted

374

Melinda Lee: and signed up

375

Melinda Lee: a part of it. Yeah. And so. But you just being there for them and him.

376

Melinda Lee: So I and and I honor him. I you know our risk, rest in peace.

377

Melinda Lee: and and now you have been been able to take that and do good in the world.

378

Keo Sar: Yeah, I

379

Keo Sar: it. It took me, I think.

380

Keo Sar: 6 months before I I was able to

381

Keo Sar: find some semblance of peace with it, and and part of it was I

382

Keo Sar: I wrote an article dedicated to him.

383

Melinda Lee: Okay, we'll share. You want to share that. Put it into the show notes we'd love. If you want to share.

384

Keo Sar: Yeah, yeah.

385

Melinda Lee: Yeah, yeah, that.

386

Keo Sar: Yeah, I know, cause like one of our plans was to

387

Keo Sar: to go to Thailand together

388

Keo Sar: because he was. He was half Thai half Cambodian, and

389

Keo Sar: I was.

390

Keo Sar: I don't know if it was Netflix, or maybe just you know, TV. But

391

Keo Sar: there's this famous chef in J. Phi. In Thailand, and she makes these

392

Keo Sar: incredible crab omelets. And it's you know, she's like

393

Keo Sar: probably

394

Keo Sar: the first, st

395

Keo Sar: maybe only maybe there's like one other now, like Michelin star like street food vendor.

396

Keo Sar: And people literally line up for her food.

397

Keo Sar: And

398

Keo Sar: I was watching, listening.

399

Keo Sar: because they did an episode on her background. I'm like this is so fascinating, because.

400

Keo Sar: you know, be before that she was working if I remember correctly, at like a clothing factory.

401

Keo Sar: and it burned down.

402

Keo Sar: And now she had to figure out how to make money to feed herself and her daughter.

403

Melinda Lee: Yes.

404

Keo Sar: And so there's this really big why, for her and even to take a step further, one of the things she she mentioned during the show was.

405

Keo Sar: you know, like her mom,

406

Keo Sar: was against her cooking.

407

Melinda Lee: Wow!

408

Keo Sar: And she, you know, so part of that was also wanting to to prove to her her mom. And and I don't know

409

Keo Sar: proving her mom. Wrong is probably not the the right

410

Keo Sar: way to to think about. That is probably like proving to herself that she could.

411

Melinda Lee: Right exactly. I would agree with that.

412

Melinda Lee: But I love how something had to come down.

413

Keo Sar: That's right.

414

Melinda Lee: Rise.

415

Keo Sar: Yeah, yeah.

416

Melinda Lee: Yeah.

417

Melinda Lee: Yeah. And you also. And your dad, too. Did you go? You mentioned because your dad had a huge influence, and I want to honor him, too, because he's no longer with us as well.

418

Keo Sar: Yeah, the

419

Keo Sar: my dad, he passed away now over

420

Keo Sar: it's about 9, and a half years ago.

421

Keo Sar: yeah, and it, it was the

422

Keo Sar: the the period following. That was.

423

Keo Sar: I would say, the darkest periods of my life.

424

Keo Sar: Because he was my best friend. We spoke every Sunday.

425

Keo Sar: you know I I lived in San Francisco at the time, and I would, you know, go down to San Diego pretty frequently to to spend time with him. We would go on drives and

426

Keo Sar: just talk and

427

Keo Sar: it was.

428

Keo Sar: It was difficult

429

Keo Sar: to get used to not

430

Keo Sar: speaking with him every Sunday.

431

Keo Sar: and to just be able to call him like, Hey, I've got this situation because he he was always great, but he never told me like this is what you should do.

432

Melinda Lee: Oh, I love that well, and though I can, I just highlight the reason why is because, as you know, I'm a speaking coach communication coach, and just that power of what we remember our conversations. Every conversation is so important.

433

Melinda Lee: The and not not taking that for granted, because you never know when you're not gonna have that Sunday where you could just pick up the phone to call them.

434

Keo Sar: Yeah, no, that. That's exactly it. So you know, I

435

Keo Sar: I envy everyone who still has their

436

Keo Sar: yeah.

437

Melinda Lee: Parents, yeah.

438

Keo Sar: Yeah.

439

Melinda Lee: And so remembering to to use your your voice as a way to connect

440

Keo Sar: Yeah. And you know, I I think the way I I honor him is to continue to try to to do the right thing and make an impact on on the world because he was

441

Keo Sar: You know, he he got hurt on the job. He was a janitor, and I had to actually put these pieces together, because I actually didn't know what he did.

442

Melinda Lee: Wow!

443

Keo Sar: I didn't know what a janitor the concept of the janitor was.

444

Keo Sar: and a few years ago, on a trip home, I I found the janitorial certificate from.

445

Keo Sar: you know, some nonprofit agency, and

446

Keo Sar: I I tried to look up the company that he he worked for asked my mom and kind of, you know.

447

Keo Sar: getting to the conclusion that he was most likely a a janitor. At this, like medicine processing company in in

448

Keo Sar: in San Diego.

449

Keo Sar: And

450

Keo Sar: yeah, like, I said, part part of the

451

Keo Sar: the way I honor continue to contribute to the world in a positive way, because, you know he he very much believed in

452

Keo Sar: building community

453

Keo Sar: and providing services. So one of the things that you know he

454

Keo Sar: he did, which you know, I

455

Keo Sar: being

456

Keo Sar: like his son that I'm extremely proud of, was he? He built

457

Keo Sar: the Cambodian Buddhist society in San Diego, and took it from like this one building and turned it into this, you know, expanded probably 4 or 5 times this the size of this property. And

458

Keo Sar: it was a community center. It was a school for both adults and kids to learn. Khmer, which is our our language.

459

Keo Sar: you know religious holidays were were celebrated there, and this was all, you know. Not it wasn't paid work, and he poured so much into it.

460

Keo Sar: And I I just remember this this moment. Now that we're talking about it. I

461

Keo Sar: he's

462

Keo Sar: we. We're going to the Temple, because that's where a lot of the meetings of the you know, the people involved in in this work.

463

Keo Sar: and

464

Keo Sar: we walk into this very crowded room.

465

Keo Sar: and and you can hear the noise as you're walking towards it.

466

Keo Sar: and as soon as my dad walks in the door like it's just like

467

Keo Sar: silent like, just just like whatever noise was there was just like vacuumed out. I'm like.

468

Keo Sar: what's happening here, you know. I don't remember how old I was. I was probably like 8, 9. And

469

Keo Sar: Yup, it's just my dad.

470

Keo Sar: So.

471

Melinda Lee: Oh, I love that well, I love how you're you're able to transition! Can you hear me?

472

Keo Sar: I'm having a bit of an audio issue.

473

Keo Sar: Can you hear me.

474

Melinda Lee: I think it's back.

475

Keo Sar: -Oh.

476

Melinda Lee: Can you hear me?

477

Keo Sar: One second.

478

Melinda Lee: Okay.

479

Melinda Lee: I can hear you.

480

Melinda Lee: but it is.

481

Keo Sar: Oh, okay, it was.

482

Keo Sar: I don't know why, but your voice sounded like a chipmunk.

483

Melinda Lee: Oh, yeah, it it went out for a little bit. But how is it now?

484

Keo Sar: It's it's fine now. I I guess we'll just have to go without headphones on my end.

485

Melinda Lee: Okay, that sounds fine. So we're almost at the end. So it's okay. We'll just pick up. We'll just edit that part out. But I was gonna say, so, we'll just take a pause. I think I was gonna say, okay, I remember what I was. Gonna say, take a pause

486

Melinda Lee: and say.

487

Melinda Lee: I hear the the transition I mean you lost someone so dear to you. And your dad, your best friend, someone you called every Sunday, someone who you connected with, and and he was so honoring to you and respected you, allowed you to flourish, allow you to build on your strengths, and to reinvent and to learn. He just let you thrive. And so.

488

Keo Sar: And that, and.

489

Melinda Lee: How, when you communicate with each other, you felt safe.

490

Melinda Lee: and and so for me to lose him

491

Melinda Lee: was so hard like you. It was a heartbreaking moment. You're someone as a part of you is gone.

492

Melinda Lee: Yeah. And

493

Melinda Lee: and I want to acknowledge your strength in

494

Melinda Lee: honoring him and and transitioning to do. Everything you go doing forward is is almost like you. Remember him and you work hard, and you you do, and you thrive because of his energy within you. It's like you. You take that forward and you propel, and you use that going forward and all that you do. And so he's not forgotten. He's still with you, and he's actually still

495

Melinda Lee: giving you wings to fly. So.

496

Keo Sar: Yeah, every day. And he

497

Keo Sar: people think I'm crazy sometimes, but he does come to visit me.

498

Keo Sar: In my dreams.

499

Melinda Lee: I love it. Oh, my mom! So you know I love it. They do come, visit us.

500

Melinda Lee: and cause they're part of us, and he's still with you.

501

Keo Sar: yeah.

502

Melinda Lee: Believe that for. And I feel it. I feel that.

503

Melinda Lee: So thank you so much, Kia. And I'm gonna just wrap up

504

Melinda Lee: what is. And then I'd like to ask you. And I ask all my guests what is that? One leadership? Golden takeaway.

505

Keo Sar: To.

506

Melinda Lee: The audience to remember.

507

Keo Sar: The one golden takeaway is understanding your team's why

508

Keo Sar: and

509

Keo Sar: get to know their personal why? So you can help connect

510

Keo Sar: their personal why, to their business goals.

511

Keo Sar: And that way it becomes more crystal clear. Why, they've chosen to do what to do and be part of your team and work that they're doing, and also

512

Keo Sar: why they're doing it. It's not, you know. And I tell my teams this all the time I was like, look.

513

Keo Sar: you're not going to be here forever at this company.

514

Keo Sar: Yeah, let's like, let's just be realistic about that but however.

515

Keo Sar: while you're here, make the most of it.

516

Keo Sar: and I want to understand your why, so I can help you make the most of it.

517

Keo Sar: because I know the things that you do in your career to help grow. Your career is also going to have an impact on your you know your personal goals.

518

Melinda Lee: Right.

519

Keo Sar: Yeah.

520

Melinda Lee: Amazing. That's so beautiful.

521

Melinda Lee: And it's like their motivation from within.

522

Keo Sar: Yes. Yeah.

523

Melinda Lee: And I'll save you time from needing to micromanage, because they're already driven from within.

524

Keo Sar: Yeah, and and it's.

525

Melinda Lee: Courage to help people find their why cause it is nebulous, it is uncertain, but at the same time it's worth all the effort and the time and energy, and the connection that you're building with this person because you they know you care.

526

Keo Sar: Yeah. And and I think that's a very critical part of of leadership and management is.

527

Melinda Lee: Yeah.

528

Keo Sar: Knowing that your your manager

529

Keo Sar: cares about you? Because.

530

Keo Sar: statistically.

531

Keo Sar: yeah, I think it's something like 55%

532

Keo Sar: of people surveyed. They didn't leave because the the company they left because of their immediate manager.

533

Melinda Lee: Exactly.

534

Keo Sar: You know. So I I think the better that we get at building leaders and managers. It's a benefit

535

Keo Sar: for all the stakeholders involved.

536

Melinda Lee: Nothing else.

537

Melinda Lee: Yeah.

538

Melinda Lee: awesome, excellent!

539

Melinda Lee: That was amazing, Keo. I am so grateful. Thank you for sharing your unique journey, and I have gotten so much out of it, and so many powerful nuggets, so many powerful takeaways. I

540

Melinda Lee: want, you know, help people to discover the why.

541

Melinda Lee: Listen, connect with them honor their journey, and sometimes it can be uncomfortable for others.

542

Keo Sar: And.

543

Melinda Lee: Going to ask you, what do you need? What do you want a hug? Do you want advice, or do you want to be heard.

544

Keo Sar: And so.

545

Melinda Lee: Thank you so much for those

546

Melinda Lee: amazing insights and takeaways, and I appreciate you and

547

Melinda Lee: thank you, audience, for being here. I trust that you enjoyed this, and take what you need to serve you in your life, and until I see you next time I'm your sister in flow may prosperity flow to you through you and on to others. Take care.

548

Melinda Lee: bye, bye, Keo. Thank you.

549

Keo Sar: Alright. Thank you.

550

Melinda Lee: Bye.