Refilwe Ledwaba loves learning new things but with South Africa's first black female helicopter pilot already a pioneer in so much, what life lesson have a pair of chopsticks taught her?

Hi, I'm Dhruti Shah, and this is my podcast Have you thought about? I'm a writer, journalist and poet, and I love finding out about what passions and interests people are pursuing, especially if they're blending together these interests in unusual ways. In each edition, I'm going to chat with someone I find particularly interesting. And who has been able to fit things together in their life or profession that you might not always think of as an obvious match at first. You're about to hear me chatting with Refilwe Ledwaba who brings together a love of aviation, education, and travel. Refilwe we've known each other for a few years after you featured on a project that I was working on about innovators. And you're used to breaking barriers, because after all, you're South Africa's first black female helicopter pilot, you've worked in the police, you worked on commercial flights. But first, how did you fall in love with aviation and flying?

I always get that question a lot. And it's quite an interesting story. Because there's a traditional way of falling in love with something. And there's a sort of a non traditional way. And I would like to think mine was non-traditional, because with aviation, you always hear stories of a young person growing up, looking up the sky, or building, you know, small aeroplane or small model aircraft, and you know, all those things. And that's how they develop the passion. Mine was a little bit different. And it was a bit different because of the context where I was coming from. So I was born in a small town, it's a similar village, we didn't have an airport close by, I have never seen an aeroplane before. I've never seen somebody that looked like me flying. So for me, aviation was never a viable career choice for me. So I didn't grow up putting together a small aeroplane, or building paper planes, per se. So my initial passion, I wanted to become a doctor, I wanted to help people. And that was mainly based as well on the community that I grew up in, where we had really powerful women that were doing all these awesome things. And there was a lady as well, that was a doctor in that community. So she was my role model. Those are some of the role models I sort of looked up to up until I got introduced into aviation when I was at university. So you can imagine that was like very late in my life that are going to introduce interrogation. But because I grew up as a very curious person, a curious child, I always asked questions, you know, read books, I wanted to know about what is it this industry. It was sort of a lot of things that played a role right to the end when I finished my degree. And I couldn't really go to medical school, that I ended up in an airline as an air hostess. So you can imagine, it's so different from what I have, I had initially started doing. And even though like during university, I started being curious and asking questions,

and I was on a flight where there was a female pilot, and I was like, Okay, so there's a room for female pilots, but still not that the one that looks like me in a way. And it was only when I started as an air hostess in an airline that it really sort of cemented- I think we don't realise some of the passions that we have. Not because we don't have a passion for whatever particular because we don't know that something like that exists, or it's even an option. But once it started becoming an option, I'm like, Wow, I love travelling I like, you know, I like reading, I like to work with things. And this is, you know, really perfect for me. And that's really how you know how I started. So mine was a little bit non-traditional. But I really love the industry. And I'm glad with some of some of the challenges that happened along the way that sort of, not forced me, but kind of like directed me into the direction that I am. Because if it wasn't those challenges, because it was challenges that really did that, if it wasn't those challenges, I wouldn't be where I am. So I think it's one of those times where I always say bring those challenges on because something great is going to, you know it's going to come out of it.

You really are fearless. And the thing that I really like about you is that you just don't keep your fearlessness or your skills even to yourself. Because you are a social entrepreneur, you founded Girls Fly Africa, you've been encouraging girls to get into STEM careers. But why is it so important to you to take that fearlessness, and encourage others to areas that perhaps maybe they're more traditionally steered away from. You didn't realise that, you know, aviation was necessarily going to be for you as a kid, but you like hey people, you can pretty much do anything. I remember being at one of the camps in South Africa and it was inspiring to see all these young women believing that they could be whatever they wanted to be. So why do you keep giving, giving, giving?

It's also such an interesting question, because it's, you know, sometimes, you know, we get answers like, you know, how it makes you feel or how you want to make the world a better place. It has a lot for me to do with my values and how I was brought up so I don't look at it is you know, I keep on giving. It's actually in me, because that's how I you know, I grew up. I grew up in a community of a lot of women, and those women were career women. So I really, you know, even though I grew up in poverty, but I had the privilege of growing up among those women so they were career women. My mother was a teacher. We had a female doctor, but there was something quite interesting as well. They were not only looking after their career, they gave a lot to the community, for example, the doctor had a build a community centre to make sure that women in that area have got access to basic health care, she put together some vegetable gardens, so women will come in, have vegetable gardens, solve them. So as a means of looking themselves, and my mum, my mum taught music, you know, in the community, and none of those, they were not paid. We had a woman that had a creche, to make sure that all those women can do other things, so they can drop their kids at the creche there and can go on to do other things. So I grew up in a community where, you know, women did that. And because of that, it's almost like women are uplifting each other. And you can see the power of collaboration, the power of community, the power of when women take things in their own hands. So ultimately, they thought, okay, there is a problem, because that's what they did, when there was a problem. They did something to address that problem. If there's a problem of poverty, they put gardens there. If there's a problem of daycare, they had a daycare, if there's a problem of healthcare, they put a health care centre. So that's how I grew up. And it was sort of ingrained in me. So

I think you're slightly, understating yourself, you have multiple fellowships, you are a global leader. And I can see why people's eyes light up when they are in your presence. My eyes light up in your presence. But the other thing I think is really fascinating about you, and tapping on what you just said, is that you are curious, you are a lifelong learner. I mean, you're studying right now. And what is it that keeps that curiosity going?

when I was going through my training, I had a lot of challenges. Being one of the first female, it comes with a lot of responsibilities, you literally have to pave, you know, pave the way, but because of that upbringing, I always looked at the challenges, like okay, what can I do about it, instead of Oh, my word, this is like, in some, you know, it's so big. That grounding, almost, not only helped me go through the challenges that I had, but also it made sure that when I came after I went back again, and okay, what do I do to make sure that these challenges never exist for anybody else that come after me? So I took the aviation, you know, community as my own community. How do we make it inclusive as a as a community, those women gave me a very beautiful base, that I was able to grow up and become a person, you know, person I am today. And the question is, how do I give other people a similar base to be able to excel to whatever, what, you know what they do. And again, you have a community like that, then you become better as an industry, or better as a community. So it was more like something that it was kind of like, ingrained in me, it's something that comes, it's one of my values. Community is one of my values. So I knew I had to, you know, I had to do it, I had to inspire. The second thing as well, which was quite important. I wanted to become a doctor, because there was a doctor in my community. So seeing people like you doing certain things, it's very important, which brings me to role modelling as well. So as a young person, being a doctor was a non existent because there was none. There was like, not none, but it was something that it's normal, yet we normalised it and because we normalised it afterwards, it was accessible. So for me, it was quite important that I've reached this, you know, highest or whatever, there's all these titles, you know, but you know, sometimes the titles, they, you know, they put you on a pedestal. But it was quite

important for me to go back to make sure that I'm accessible to those young people. Because sometimes when we get pedestals, we think 'no, I have to know sit on that stage and look down on people'. That's not what we did in our community, you go to the people, you work with them. And for me, it was quite important that I become accessible to those to these young people; that I answered their calls that I'm not, you know, not anywhere on the pedestal. Yes, I might have those titles that comes with what I've done. But it doesn't necessarily mean that I'm different. Or I've got a certain level of authority over anybody else, it simply means that I've got certain access that maybe they didn't have, and that it's up to me to open that access. And you know, they can look up to me as much as I looked up to those women in those communities. So I think that's why I'm really passionate about you know, this work.

I love learning. I remember, as a young person, I used to just open books, I love books, and it just used to keep me keep going. I like learning about new things; curious about things. When I see that there's a problem that I can't solve, I go to school and research. And it's quite interesting. So at the moment, I'm studying inclusive innovation and technology. And I went back to actually start looking at it from an academic perspective, or whatever I'm doing it because of where we are in South Africa. We currently struggling from triple challenge, unemployment, poverty, inequality. And I mean, people have done everything that they can and including myself, and I thought to myself, you know what, I've done what I've done, but I'm gonna go and study what the real issue is, get to the bottom of this and just try to understand what are this bigger problems because sometimes we just, we solve problems by just putting like a band aid on that problem without really understanding what the issue is. I'm one of those people that understand things through academia. I'm a lifelong learner, I want modules and I'm able to apply them. So I know my strengths. And I know what my strong points are. And I'm using those to actually be able to get something but also look at how do I then continue impacting, but not on a smaller scale than we've been doing. But on a bigger scale, where you start shifting some of those macro challenges that the country has. I know it sounds big. And I know when I see people smile, but I'm just that crazy, where I think, yes, I can solve those issues. For me, that's, that's what drives me. And sometimes you need to just be crazy enough to think that you are one of the people that are going to, you know, solve those issues. And that's how we move that needle. So I'll just go into ways if I can solve it, I always, you know, try to see how else can I approach a, you know, a certain issue. So by studying, I love studying, so

that's something that I do, I thrive when I study, I'm happy when I'm studying, most importantly, what I'm doing as well, it might sounds crazy, but I want to continue solving, you know, the world's problem, but on a major scale now. And for me, that's an avenue because I love doing what I'm doing. I love researching, and I love going into communities and talking to people, and academia gives me an opportunity to do exactly that. It is tiring, but I've realised that when you love doing something, and it's meaningful to you, it doesn't matter how tired you are. You know you make time for it, and just extra as well is you know we've got 24 hours a day. So I did audit on on my 24 hours, just to see where do I spend my time. And I realised that we actually do have time? Where do we put our energy. On what type of things do we put, you know, do we put our, you know, sort of our energy, so I had to audit my time. And I found that I actually, it's fine, we actually have time as a student and I had a couple to do other things. Because now you have to really, in a way, start planning, start utilising maximise and utilising your time really efficiently, and start discussing things that don't really add value to what you're doing every day. You know, we're

thinking about things to think about. So doing an audit of your life of your time, is that something you regularly do, or this was something actually as part of this inclusive innovation that you're going to sort of try out as a new technique, and perhaps do more regularly.

It's something that I've started doing, like about two years ago, I was always tired. And I was in addition, we'll call it being behind the drag curve, being behind the track, drag curve is you know, the aircraft is ahead of so as a pilot, you have to be ahead of the aircraft, because you have to anticipate. So we don't want to be behind the drag curve. Because when you're behind the drag curve, it means that the aircraft is ahead when the aircraft is ahead, that's trouble, you're not able to anticipate - you're slow to react. As a flight instructor, I have to teach my students to be always ahead of the drag curve. So I use the techniques that are used in the industry in my personal life. How do I make sure that I'm always ahead of the drag curve instead of behind the drag curve. So in the aviation industry, we've got pre planning, you know, when you go on a flight, there's certain things that you need to do. And at certain times, you need to do you have a checklist, right. So you need to do certain things, you need to get a need to get the weather, you need to get this. And then the phase two, you need to do this, then you go on to your pre flight, and you get on, and before you can even start to do your checklist, it's already in your head that after I do this, the checklist comes next, oh, this, and then you learn about emergencies. You've got recalled items that are already inherent, before an emergency can even happen or anything can happen. There are signs right that are in the cockpit, a light might come on, or pressure might come down. So those always, those signs that help you to be ahead. But you also need to do a certain level of preparation. So when I took what I've learned from the technical aspect of the industry, into my own personal life was how do I make sure that I'm ahead of the of the drag cuve, because it's very comfortable to be ahead of the drag curve. Whenever challenge comes, you're ready to you know, to deal

with the challenge because you are ahead. In aviation, when emergency come when you're ahead of the trek, you're ready because your mind is set in such a way that you are really ahead of the aircraft. So with me, and how do I become ahead of my own life? And in such a way that whenever something comes, I'm actually ready. So I use the same concept, what are the things that I need to do? How do I make sure that I make a make it easier for myself to be able to carry on things that I do in terms of the planning. So I've got days where on a Sunday I do my pre planning. And just like when we fly, we'll always look at the planning. Is it still? Does it still apply? Didn't the wind change some variables, you know, are we still getting to the destination? So with my plan as well, I do those checks. You know, it's like travelling from A to B. So I do a plan maybe on a Sunday, and during the week I keep on going to that plan - has any of those variables changed? Has anything changed from there that will make it difficult to get to the destination, you know, or make it you know, be behind what I need to do? So there's a lot of checks and balances; a bit of those checklists and really opening up as well my mind and my shedule in such a way that if anything comes because I'm way ahead, I'm able to say okay, how do I deal with it? I've got space to be able to deal with whatever that I need to deal with. Now one other thing that we always use as well, in aviation, we've got this thing called, it's sort of a silent review. So from a certain time to a certain time, we don't do things that are not important. The only thing that we do, it's the important to the flying, which means we don't chitchat, you know, you and the captain or the pilot is not chit chatting, your focus is on that particular flight on that particular flight. Because those times are the times where according to research, most of the accidents happen. So, which means you need to be fully in your mind.

So in your personal life as well, you need to have all those, you know, you to start creating those times, where they asked and think, what is the end goal? What is it that you want to do for this week, let's say if it's academia, it's that priority, then you shut down everything. And that's what you focus on. So I'm starting to use some of the techniques that I've learned in the aviation industry, some of the technical things as a pilot that I've learned, and use it in my personal life to make sure that I'm not behind the drag curve, but I'm ahead of the drag curve and be able to solve whatever that comes, that wasn't part of the plan, you know, that can shake me or take me away from what I'm supposed to be doing. I don't know if it makes sense.

It's that this is amazing. I'm like, where's your book Refilwe? Where is it? I mean, I know you're in books, but I want the book of this is. Now this is a great self help guide. And it ties in so well with what you're talking about with the academia with the inclusive innovation, because this is stuff that you know, and actually, this is stuff that resonates so. So well, I'm going to be taking this away and being like, actually, this will hopefully help head towards a comfortable, uncomfortable, because it seems like that's what you're talking about. That's my big thing at the moment is being comfortable in the uncomfortable, but you you seem to constantly be there.

You need to challenge yourself. And once you do it a couple of times, and you you get this rewarding feeling of challenging yourself, and it starts with small little things. I'm gonna give you an example. And I'm gonna be honest, I know it's going to sound funny. So I had a problem with using chopsticks, right? So I'm like, you know what, I can't, for some reason, I'll, you know, pick it up and whatever. And, and I was like, 'oh, my word'. And to a point where I'll go to restaurants and not order something that I had to be, you know, because it was a bit uncomfortable for me to be able to use chopsticks. And one day, I'm like, no, man, I'm gonna learn how to use chopsticks. So I'm going to actually put time on the side and learn how to use chopsticks. So I went on to YouTube videos. It took me about three hours to actually learn how to use chopsticks. And I'm like, I was scared of something that I haven't even attempted to learn how to do. But the weirdest part about that was the moment that I actually got it right. That whole my whole house - chopsticks. It was such a small thing. But the feeling that you got about, you know, yes, it's a very uncomfortable place. Because I mean, I can fly aeroplanes, right? Jets and whatever - I couldn't use chopsticks. That's like two things. And the moment I moved myself, and I'm like, I'm going to get into that uncomfortable place. And I'm actually going to teach myself how to use this. It doesn't matter how small it is. I'm going to learn how to do it. And I did it. And now I'm actually teaching other people. But what does it say? It says the reason why people don't want to get to that uncomfortable space, because they're scared of failure. They're scared of what if it doesn't go as much? What if, or they're scared of what people would say? Because they don't know we want to do things that we're good at. We want to do these things that matter because we're comfortable in doing that. But as

well, the rewards, the feedback that we get from doing things that comfortable. In a way we think they're much bigger, because people are saying, Oh, this is so nice, because you do it so well. That's something that you've done. Now, when you move from the comfortable to uncomfortable, it's something that you haven't mastered. It's something that you haven't done. Now with, you know, the fear of now getting negative feedback, because as human beings, we always want to, you know, when I hear positive feedbacks, but what does it do? It prevents you from growing, it prevents you from trying other things. Now, I couldn't eat things that require chopsticks because I couldn't use chopsticks. And I mean, man, some of those things are quite nice. Now that I know, you know how to do it in a very uncomfortable place that's where growth takes place. Not growth, because you've mastered growth because you've overcome something that you thought that you wouldn't do. It doesn't matter how small you are. So what I've done is well, like during the year, I've got a list of things that I really want to do, but I'm scared of doing. I'm uncomfortable. I'm embarrassed of telling people that I cannot do because as somebody that has done so many things that look difficult, I'm expected to know everything right? But there's some things like using chopsticks that I couldn't do. So I've written that list and I'm going through that list so I can now show you I have cancelled the chopsticks and these other few things that are coming after that I need to do and when we have another conversation - I'll tell you those other things that I actually need to do. But the most important thing is I give myself time and grace and realising that this is a new skill. And instead of, and I'll go to people that actually are good at that. And I'll say to them, I'm not good at that. And I see that you are good; can you teach me and it becomes a fun activity actually is with my friends and some

people, they're like, oh, you can't do that. Okay, cool, we should do that with you. So I turn something that is very uncomfortable into something fun. And in that way, that negative that you expect from people, it's not there anymore. That's the other thing. I think one of the most important thing as a leader as well, right, it takes courage to move from comfort to uncomfortable, but you also allow other people to be vulnerable enough and say, you know what, I can't do that. And when you start doing that, with your teams, when you start doing that with your friends, that's how you grow as friends, that's how you grow as teams, because you've allowed them to do that, when they see you as perfect all the time, that's where the problem comes in. But if they know that you actually, there's certain things that you can't do, there's certain places that you're uncomfortable, but you're willing to forego some of those nice things you get, when you do things that you're comfortable, then you give other people permission, especially people that look, you know, in a way look up to you to, you know, to do those things. Another example I can give you, you know, due to my obviously, the background, you know, English wasn't, you know, our first language and because of that I was really too scared to do public speaking, you know, speak in front of people, because I'm thinking, Oh, my word, you know, what are they going to do, because sometimes we attach language into something being smart. So if you speak a certain way, it means that, then you're smart. It was a very uncomfortable place, because of all those things, you know, stories that we tell ourselves. And the first thing that the first time that I and but I was, and I had to tell this story, and it might take a little bit of your time. But the first time I remember at university, and I wanted to be part of House committee, because I wanted to be a leader, you know, like, it was something that is in me, I need to be at

that so I can change certain things that I didn't like, but because I was so conscious about speaking, and it was so uncomfortable for me, due to a lot of various factors. And I was at a university where I mean, I was at the University of Cape Town where people that went to that university can speak a certain way, they are very assertive, you know, they come out. And I've seen people that were campaigning for those positions, they'll pull up like papers and papers and talk, like Obamas and everyone. So they had all these speeches. And I'm thinking, I'm not gonna do that, you know, like, I don't even have, I can't even put a paragraph of whatever that I'm going to, you know that I want to say it because people that are running for those positions, they've got a whole lot of other things that you know, that they're going to say. And first year, I was too scared, and I didn't do it. In second, I'm like, no, I need to do it. Because I need to get to this position, I need to start changing certain things that I don't like. And so in February, I started writing down what I'm going to say in November, like couple of months, so every month, I will write down all those things. And my speech I did 10, 10 months I spent writing, you know, so I could stand in front of people in high school, in university to say, you need to vote for me for house committee. And I practiced and I practiced. And then comes November where we had to now campaign, get in front of people and I froze. All those practices, I remember, I froze, but in that freezing as well, I'm like, okay, I need to say something. So I said something. But it wasn't something that was written, it was something that came from my heart. And as like, I want to be part of the House Committee. This is why you need to vote for me, and this is what I want to do. If I you know, if I'm voted, I mean, I didn't even spend five minutes, I was voted in one of the people that got the highest vote ever. So I don't know why

they voted me in. But it is what it is. And whatever that I had said that I was going to do, like I said to them, the rest that I was at will be the best in sports or something like that. So I became a sports rep. And it was the best in sports in the history of you know, in that year. And for me, there was a lesson as well, I got out of my comfort zone. I did stand in front of people, I did embarrass myself, but the results were much bigger. And from then on, he couldn't get me off the stage. But this is something else happened. So when I became a pilot, and I started going to those rural areas, those young people heard the way I spoke, spoke like them, and they were scared as well. They were like, we're from grad areas our education system wasn't is not as good. We can't speak English, therefore we cannot become a pilot and I'm like hell no, that aircraft doesn't care. Whatever. You can speak English like me, wherever. You put buttons - they're technical. So for for me getting out of my comfort zone and really overcoming and understanding that yes my background was a certain way. But that doesn't stop me from getting to the top of my game. I gave those young people in rural areas that spoke like me that had a similar background and permission to actually say, 'you know what, we're gonna get onto that stage as well if she can do it, and still laugh at herself. We know the mistakes that she's done and still get to that level where she's at now. Where can we do it?' So yes, being uncomfortable can yield amazing results but can allow other people permission to also get to that space of uncomfort. And therefore leading to their own growth as well. So yeah,

Wow. I mean, I'm literally so awestruck, and it's absolute amazing. You are travelling, but also not able to travel, you know, when we had the pandemic, you were still maintaining Areyestories, I might be pronouncing that incorrectly. So let's make sure we pronounce it correctly. Tell, tell us a little bit more about how that came about. And how you maintain that because I want to make sure that people see the beauty through you of what the world is like.

So Areye it's a Sotho word, it means 'let's go'. The name came as a result of, you know, when I was growing up, we had like, young people early in the morning, we'll go and call each other and we'll say areye, and we'll go and create magic, either play in the streets, or, you know, go up the mountain and do a lot of stuff. So it has a lot of meaning. So it means let's go. So and you know, so there was a lot of obviously negative stories during the pandemic, which is obviously where we are, it's warranted that you're going to have these negative stories. And at that time, I had to go back and draw on something that I knew, you know, what are some of the stories that I can tell through, you know, areye, you know, the stories of, you know, some of the beautiful things in the country, and even travelling within the country, some of the beauty of the country, and some of the stories, some of the positive is positive stories there. Because as a pilot, I think we're really badly impacted by the pandemic, because all aircraft, you know, they were grounded, and suddenly you lose your identity. As what we thought was our, you know, in a way, an identity as a pilot, so, you know, there's no longer that prestige of walking through the airport. And so for me, it was a way of what are the other stories that are there? What are our stories, because our story are, you know, they it's not just, you know, a single story of just being a pilot, you know, like, I don't know, if you listen to the TED Talk by Chimamanda Adichie of the danger of a single story, right? So we're not just single story. So I'm just not only a pilot, there's a lot of stories, that makes me who I am. And that's what are Areye Stories my story is, you know, the stories of let's go, of growing up, of the other things that I can, you know, I can do. And I know other people, a friend of mine, at some point, started a vegetable garden, because I spoke about, I think, on my Facebook,

whatever, I spoke about vegetable garden, on my Areye, the stuff that I do, that I didn't know, during the pandemic, and, you know, so and so. So it was, it was meant to say, Yes, this is where we are. And this is where we find ourselves. But this can't be the end of our stories, this can't be the only stories, this can't be the end of it, there's a whole lot of other ways that we can, you know, we can tell our stories. And what I also try as well is to be honest, meaning that when I'm down, I write it down my frame of mind is somewhere else, I put it down that is somewhere else. When I you know, I know at some point I always talk about as well my Foundation and how tired it made me. So I put it down that I'm actually tired of the work that I was doing. And for me, it was quite important because that's the real story. In the beginning you were talking about oh, you're doing all these other things. And when people look at you, they're like, Oh my word. You know, you can do all these other stories, but people need to realise as well that in that story, you get tired, you get challenged.You get emotional, as well. It was important to make sure that comes out. There is no you know, all the heavy stuff only. There's also some of the bumps that I that I go through some, some of the losses as well, that I grow through so that's that's what it was meant to do. Yeah.

The wonderful Refilwe Ledwaba who is forever curious and brings together innovation, aviation, travel and more. Do you have an interdisciplinary life because I would love to hear from you. And perhaps we can chat in this podcast that goes with my newsletter, which is called Have You Thought About and can be found via www.dhrutishah.com. Please join me next time for a fun conversation with another guest who likes to shake up things in their life. Thank you, Rian Shah for the music for this podcast.