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Honest Talk About Heartbreak, Dating and Relationships - Rob McPhillips EPISODE 21, 15th September 2020
Playing The Game of Relationships
00:00:00 03:32:55

Playing The Game of Relationships

We had a lively exchange of views in this podcast on how we should play the game of relationships.

We talked about the two main ways of viewing the games of relationships.

Then we got into the detailed games people sometimes play in relationships. For example, should you 'treat them mean to keep them keen?'

The Relationship Landscape. All this and more wisdom from;

The Scouse Guru

Heroic Erel

The Diplomat

and many more we haven't renamed yet!



Welcome to honest talk about heartbreak, dating and relationships, relationships, the podcast helping you navigate your path to happy ever after with your host, Rob McPhillips. So tonight's meetup is about playing the game of relationships, I've got my game of Game of Thrones mug here. So first thing I think we can discuss in the breakout rooms, if you discuss. When I couldn't so I'm going to talk about our relationship has been, again, lasting again tonight. And what's your reaction, what's your feeling about that and what's your view?


It is often. Often this. Well. Often these people have a reaction to sometimes being called again. Okay, so we're going to split and see breakout rooms differently.


I'm sorry I didn't tell you.


You said to go to the breaking room.


Yes, a breakout room. Let me see if I can. To the breakout room. Did you get a link to click?


But I left it. But what what to do in this briefing room.


OK, so the breakout rooms for more private conversations. So you're going to discuss the topic in smaller groups.


Mm hmm. Yeah. OK, and then. I just want to come back to. Yeah, OK. And then we're going to come back into the main room, where will we discuss to discuss anything anyone wants to talk about that came across in the breakout rooms and then we'll have a more general discussion.


OK, again, I be.


Joining us, OK? Hi, Robbie. I was just actually replying to your message. Yeah, I found I found it was in the meetup calendar.


OK, yeah. Sometimes people people done is kind of buried in. Okay, so what we did tonight, as you saw, was playing the game of relationships. So how it works is we have while people are joining this, others, you don't have a breakout group, breakout rooms. So the smaller groups where you can have private discussion. So I'll send you a link to see join one of those groups and then we're going to come back here and have a big general discussion about what they're discussing in the groups is the question is in terms of what I'm talking about tonight, relationships being a gang, life being a game.


What's your reaction to that? Do you agree with it or disagree with it? How do you feel about that and say that clear enough? Yeah, makes perfect sense. Yeah.


OK, all right. So going to actually to your breakout room two. So if you just. You should get a link oh. Sorry, Rabbi, I jumped off the bed quickly, but I think we're halfway through it being something I know now, if you just joined the just join the group and.


Yeah, yeah. Then you yeah. There probably been more discussion. We just joined and then when there's a chance just joining. Yeah, that's fine. Now, we're sorry about that. No problem, can you get it? Uh, yeah, but you can. You can. Everyone stay in their discussions. I'm sorry. That's OK. That's really good. You know what? I love the game of Blic and how to play well.


I listen to a podcast called The Reality Revolution. Brian Scott, I know ever is is it's amazing. It's a really good podcast. Kathleen has everyone back. OK, so did anyone have any interest in discussions, any interesting forced? Joshed. This is Sheila and Sheila. Hi. I think most of us, if not all of us, agreed that to use the term game doesn't sit well with us in terms of relationship. Personally speaking, I can see the concept of a game and I can see there are similarities in terms of rules.


Players in quote marks. Again, the word players doesn't sit right with me in terms of relationship. But I guess, you know, again, concept of being winners and losers. But again, that's whether you're playing as a team, as a couple together or playing as individuals, therefore being a winner and loser. But I think, in fact, I believe that, you know, you don't necessarily know all the rules going in. If you're in a relationship, you you have to, like, find out the rules as you go along.


And everybody has different rules. Thank you for that. OK, I heard you say something, it's just I am beginning to feel more like the you know, it's not the dating stage that's just like a game because you don't know at that stage what you're getting yourself into. But once you're in a committed relationship, I think it's more if it was a team thing rather than two people competing against each other. OK, yes. Anyone else? Is that the general feeling in our group as well?


We sort of put forward a slightly different angle to it and by saying if there was any positive.


So if there were any positives to come out of the game situation, then you could say that you're entering into a win win game rather than a win lose game. And by default, there will be rules. And those rules could be authenticity, openness, communication, trust, the basic fundamental things for a relationship. And if as long as everybody's aware of them, then you could both be winners of that game. And I guess if one person is not fulfilling their part of the bargain on that, then the game might not be successful, I guess.


And Armytage, about I wasn't sure if you can talk or. So you mean it's. I was going to say I do agree with it being a game, but not in the sense of like your playing and your being conniving. I do think life is a game and you've got to play your cards right. And in a relationship, you need to go into it knowing who you are and what you want out of that. And you need to set your standards, your values, and the person needs to know what is expected of them.


Coming in from the start, so I think the yeah, I do agree with it being a game. OK, I you. So I'm going to the reason I set this as a thing is it's similar to we were talking and I was talking with, I think a couple of a couple of weeks ago about you remember we were discussing about love as a currency and you had a strong reaction to that. And there's a subtlety to to both of these ideas that really underpin a lot of the problems that people have in relationships.


So, for example, when I was talking about love being a currency, it wasn't because obviously meaning it was actually because what I'm saying is, of all the currencies is the one that we that we value the least in terms of our giving our attention, I refer to it. So. Okay. So I want to put some more detail, too, to the concept of life and relationships being a game. And the best way I know how to do that is from there is a book from James class and he talked about finite and infinite times.


And so finite game is a game that we're used to. I'm just going to mute everyone so that there is no background reaction. That's. Mean yourself if you have something to say, so. Okay, so there are finite and infinite times, so finite game is what we're familiar with in terms of it has agreed laws. It's a game like football. It's a game like tennis or any of those kind of games that we used to it. It's got agreed.


And this is what some of you picked up on, is that it's got agreed upon rules, but they're imposed rules. So there is and by definition, there's a limitation and there's a winner and a loser. So if we look at so in America, they've got the elections going on and the election is a finite game. They can only be a winner and that can only be a loser. And there's a time when it's over. And so.


In the final game that we have, like titles like if whatever row you have, if you if you play the game of law and you qualify as a lawyer, you're a lawyer. And that doesn't change. And so.


And today's winners and losers and the fight to win is fierce, fighting for control. So the infinite game is a game that doesn't end. So it's a game without boundaries, it's a game that we define by ourselves, and it's a game that deepens over time. So if you have someone who's an artist who loves art. There is an infinite game because you can always get better. There's people who might win this prize or whatever, you know, kind of you think of an art prize, but, you know, like people win the Pulitzer Prize for writing.


But it doesn't mean that they're forever they forever won the game. It means at that moment in time, they were at the top. But it's going to change. And, you know, music is again, is an infinite game. We have the charts and someone's at the top, but no one is at the top always. And so it isn't so much about winners and losers, but it's how can I play the game and get better?


So. Dieting is often spoken about as being a has been again, because it's the diet. And if you look at the way that people treat the dating game, it's players. It's people who feel that they're won by if they can sleep with a girl, if they can get the most attention, if they can do all of those things, they're playing a finite game.


And and, yeah, of course, and there are relationships where someone of want to be in control and they will see themselves as winning by getting their way, but they're playing it with a finite game. And if you look at a lot of the relationship advice, it's technique to send this text. It's say they do this thing so that you get a certain result and that's playing a finite game, whereas an infinite game is about deepening the connection, deepening the conversation.


It's about it's not about winning or dominating, but it's about developing the connection. It's about exploring rather than than winning, it's about dealing with what's now rather than let you win, and therefore you're always a winner. So one of the problems is that. In work, in business and things, people play and play a finite game, so someone who seems like someone who sees business as a as a finite game is how much money can you win?


And. So they're driven to be like destroy the competition, but actually no one ever wins. You know, when you look at those charts of Jeff Bridges is the richest man Bill Gates was for a long time, but no one's ever won because it's never over. There's no there's no finish point. And so a lot of the problems that people have are someone feels like that that wasn't proud of them, they felt like they were a loser at school, that they have this.


Insecurity, and so they have this drive to prove themselves, they have they feel like they need to have more and more success. To get away from the feeling of cost. But the label comes from the past, and so the feeling is from the past and no amount of success that you have now is ever going to change that feeling that you had back then. So when people. Play. A finite game. Like rejection in indicting warm relationships is all consuming, and so one of the reasons people are so devastated that a break up is because it feels good, because that they've got a finite game attitude to it, like this person's gone.


Therefore, I've lost. I'm never going to have that back. And if you treat it so when I'm saying about playing the game of relationships, what I'm talking about is that. If you ever. Wants to love and be loved, then you're playing the game of relationships, it's whether you know it or not. But you're actually. You're in the game. It's an infinite game. It's not like there's winners or losers, but it's different places.


And. So relationships are an infinite game. So there's never an end to it and it doesn't matter what state you are, because there's this whole I'm going to show you later about the landscape of relationships, but wherever you are is a place in the game of relationships.


And it's about if you don't like where you are, it's about moving to a different place. So the idea of playing the game of relationships is. That you're conscious of how you're doing it, because when you're conscious of how you're doing it, then that means that being in that relationship, it means you're not playing passive aggressive or not playing victim and and control. You're not playing the power games that people play, the drama games that people play.


But you're you're like bringing it to awareness. And so it's about doing relationships more consciously.


Bellamy Riley, if I've got your name right, you've got your hand up. Did you want to talk?


Yep. So you were talking about, like, proving someone wrong.


So when something happens, like when someone says that I cannot do something, so our tendency is to like, prove someone wrong. So if you tell me, like, I cannot, like, do some kind of heart, I cannot win a particular game, then it's very common for us to prove someone wrong. So it's been in our genes. So how would you actually like differentiated and how do you recognize when you are playing like a finite game on infinite game?


Okay, so if you're driven by an insecurity, which is to prove someone wrong. To accept the label that you're a loser or you've lost or you're a failure means that you've said that the game is over. Because if if the game is still playing, then you kind of lost. Does that make sense? Yep, yep, so it's it's it's when we put it into a full context, it's when we haven't really looked at or been conscious of what we're doing or how we're playing it.


And so we've put ourselves in a box of I failed once and therefore I'm a failure.


Does that make sense? Could you could you repeat that again, please, click on Introspectively. Yeah, OK, so. If you feel that you're a failure. Then you've put yourself as that you're playing a finite game. Uh huh, yeah, the nature of relationships means that it's an infinite game because for there to be a winner or loser means I grew up talking about relationships you were talking about. Yes. So in whatever context you say the game of life, you can't ever be a failure in life because you're only in a certain place.


Because it's not over until it's over. Yeah, is that clear? Oh, yeah, that's clear.


Yeah, yeah, OK, I've got a question. I don't know how to raise my hand. Yeah, that's fine.


Just jump in and say, uh, if if everyone was aware of the rules of the game and was conscious about making sure that they were going to play by the rules, can everybody enter into the infinite game, regardless of their part, either upbringing and the expectations about the future? OK, so the infinite game is one that you play in your own. It's because the final game is where we agree on the rules. This is it. These are the limitations.


This is how we play it. An infinite game is about is an attitude to life. It's I'm doing this. This is something that's important to me. This is a game I want to play. I'm going to define. Now I play the game. So so in terms of relationships, what I mean is every couple is unique, so every couple can set the rules, the boundaries, the the playing field, how they want it to be.


So it's the difference between playing. Between playing.


Like snakes and ladders all playing. Musical as a do I mean, if you're a musician. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Does that make sense mean some of your question, I guess, is, is it safe and sound?


It's like reframing how you're approaching it. And it's not by trying to win. It's something it's about personal development and how you're going through your life, I guess, like reframing it. So it's more of a personal experience, I guess, like as a second question to that. And I'm not going to go too much because I'm sure you've got a lot. But where does like human irrationality and desire fit into that? Because if you're like if you're in a partnership or relationship with somebody and you're committed and you're conscious of the rules and you're both playing along and something comes along where you don't expect it to be sort of you desire something other than what you have, could you still fit that into the infinite game when framing things, or does that then turn from what you thought was an infinite game into a finite game because you switched out completely different?


OK, so just so I understand. So basically, you're a couple, you've played this game, you set up the rules, you've set up this is our agreement, this is how we work. And then one person looks like there's someone else outside of the relationship exactly like this.


I suppose you could use that in terms of making more money, desire more money, or you want more material possessions or you want something other than what you have, which is like a new apartment, for example. Do you then just because of that human irrationality and natural instinct that desire more or something that you don't have, it's almost like a prerequisite for playing infinite game in order to get that deep connection is to ensure that within you've worked on yourself enough that you.


Are committed to not like want something else, however, that's not something you can really control. OK, yeah, I get that. OK, so the. Infinite game means you set your own rules so you decide how you play. So there are no rules. It's it's you decide the basis. So now you've got into a relationship. You've agreed. And I'm assuming you you've agreed that you're going to be crazy, some monogamous relationship. Okay.


So this is interesting. Someone asked about doing a meet up on polyamory and handling multiple relationships, and I'm happy to have that meet up. But as I said to him, it's I'm all about making relationships simple. And what you've done then is exponentially complicated.


So when you look at when you look at success in terms of whatever that you want to to achieve so in life. So I think in life we have freaky game, freaky games that we play. There's the sense of feeling successful, of using our strengths to be able to survive. So having some sense of success, there's love and there's meaning now when there's also health alongside that and all these other kind of games. And when you look at any anything, if you're going to be a success in business, if you're going to be a success in your career, you're going to be a success in any artistic thing.


Success in health. What it means is. It's having the discipline to let go of the short term desires. So in health, what I want as much as I can, but then that's going to cause health issues. So success in health comes from the restriction.


It comes from the discipline or the habit of not looking for short term gratification in. If you're going to be a success in business or career, it means that you have to put in a certain level of work. It means that you have to build, you have to turn down like the easy life. You have to turn down when those times when you could maybe socialize or be easier and you have to put in enough effort and work to achieve that success.


And so in the same way, in relationships, the way that you get the real deep connection and the feeling is from the commitment to the game. And it's part of the relationship that there's always going to be a dip, there's always going to get Diamond has a graph which shows the five stages of relationship. And it's like he says, most people give up in the third stage, which is where you initially have the honeymoon, and then it goes down and you have kids and stress and things like that, and you haven't really worked out how to work out your differences.


And he says the real depth and companionate love that you get from a relationship comes later. And so it's the. If you look anything in life, what the reward that you get is in relation to how much commitment you've had in giving, that if you look at who we who do we love most? These are children generally, and we love our children because we've given so much to them. Does that make sense and there's a lot of sense, yeah, no, it really does, and it is wise words as well.


So thanks. OK, this one. The question is, is how is it working in not trying in the relationship? Well, the infinite game. Means that there are nine rules in order to really. It's really like an infinite game means something you're playing because it's so serious that you're always going to play in it, it means you're willing to commit to it. It means you're willing to.


To put any effort to make it. I'm going to say success, but in terms of being rewarding and success, I suppose, is defined by yourself, so. I mean, there are times, of course, in relationships where it makes sense. To give up if but for most people, if you can get along and you're quite happy, you've been quite happy four to five years and most people have more to gain from staying in and working on the relationship than not.


But of course, there are relationships where if you're in a relationship where. Someone isn't willing. To work with you, we're sorry. Okay, so basically it's where someone is playing a finite game, where they need to win. They need to control. They need to. Have those kind of things, they're really the. Fact is, that means that you can't play. Play the game in the right spirit. It means that you're playing a game that you can never win.


And it's not winning in the sense, but winning as in winning an infinite is going deeper. The winning it is like if you're an artist is producing a better work, if you're it's like Elizabeth Gilbert of April Love, she gave a TED talk that she did.


She'd written other books and then she'd achieve this like worldwide bestseller. And it brought her great acclaim. And people said, like, what you going to do now? She was still relatively young. And it was like, where do you go? You're never going to recreate that success. How do you like do you give up? Like I've heard of golfers who who got how emotional or achieve some great scoring and they will never play again. But the infinite game is something that you do for the love of it.


And it's because it is a key part of your life, so. It's. You define if that's a game that you want to play, because obviously the infinite game is infinite, so you can go in lots of different directions. So it may be that there really are valid reasons that you can play a better game with someone else in a different relationship. But that its its defining do you have more to stay like, is there scope to grow in that relationship and deepen or.


Are you stuck and it's not going to work for you anymore? Does that make sense?


OK. OK, so does anyone else have had a view on on that? OK, I have I have I clearly explained, like, the difference between a finite and infinite game, feel like you understood that difference.


I think it can't be final because if you did something good that made someone very happy. And you stop to keep going, you would lose him because you have to keep playing. That's why you have to make it in finite.


Yeah. Yeah, yeah, I think that's very true. I think so many people, I think, particularly men, feel like they have to win over the woman, they've won the woman. And then it's like, well, we're married or whatever. That's it. It's over. And yes, if you if you're. That's very. Like I said, it's a really valid point because if you stop playing, the relationship dies. OK, so but sorry for interrupting, yeah, no, Carol.


Yeah, but there is a great aspect that I'm not sure if you already mentioned it to having like a very nice relationship, this dating or friendship. Is having your own shadow. Your own values. So so you have like you feel like you have a new relationship and you enjoy it in reverse. Because by logic, if you give everything in the relationship and make the other party happy. Inmates somehow like feel like you are trying too hard, so a human being when you find someone is trying to hurt.


He will find you less attractive. The New Year's and then biologic, you did everything, but this is not good. Um, okay, so what you're saying is if you are really happy with someone, then you try too hard. They're going to lose attraction to you. Yeah, you would be less attractive. Part.


And so I'm interested in.


In getting these languages, everyone feel about that. Do you feel that's valid? I think it's the phrase treat them mean, keep them clean. I mean, that's I think there's some sort of value within that particular phrase, because, you know, sometimes the more that you do for somebody, the less you get. Also, I'm not really too sure of the psychology behind. You could argue if your mother is someone who was genuine and they would see those, you know, those good traits or those quality things that you're doing for the person as a positive.


But, you know, the reality is if you if you to, like, message somebody every day just to set an example, message someone every day and respond to the texts, as soon as she was received, you wouldn't be looked at as someone who, you know, you probably get more of like a desperate type of feeling from that person. I'm not saying I would personally, but from experience with friends and stuff. And if the text and somebody and.


The replies, for instance, it's like Egypt is a bit keen, you know, I'll hang back onto the floor, I don't really know why that is, and I get my personal viewpoint on a possible. The you know, if you're interested in someone, then you don't really you shouldn't have to play a game. But yeah, I suppose I suppose in the modern day. I think if you. You feel you may feel that you're doing a lot and you're doing everything that you think the other person desires, but if you're if you're doing it because it's what you think they want rather than what they actually want, they you run the risk of that person, just not appreciating what it is that you're doing.


So you're doing a lot, but it's just not it's wide of the mark. So the purpose that you're trying to fulfill is it's just not there. And maybe as a result of that, you feel that you're not being appreciated by the other party. But what they actually need is not is still not being fulfilled because you are doing what you think they want rather than finding what they actually want and meeting those needs. I think I was kind of going around it in a circular way, but I think you get.


OK, I've heard this argument before. So what I'd like to do, I think. I believe based on past experience, that there is a gender divide to this. So what I'd really like to do is I've been supporting everyone into breakout rooms based on gender. So I'd like to go to breakout rooms for we're going to go for about 12 minutes to discuss. These ideas. I think I've got everyone the Katie I, I don't know. I don't know which female I'm female that helps.


OK, Saeb Erekat. OK, so. So how is your discussion interesting? You don't want to know? I think we have to I think I'm not sure of that, that we had the same opinion in that group.


I'm not too sure. What do you think? I think we were a bit split.


Yeah, we were. Mm hmm. And. I think everyone's back, right? Is there someone from. The men's groups who is happy to share, so I'm just going to I'm going to be everyone, so I'm one person that time can talk and.


If I could play music now, I'd play that was that Bonnie Tyler we're looking for a hero playing some music.


Are you going to be that bright again? Are you that hero?


I mean, I can take this stand if nobody wants. I feel like he's just nominated, you know, nominated myself from my group unless somebody else from my group wants to live with.


Go on there. OK, so. Well, I was saying, bottom line, it's a it's a complicated topic. Because for a start, treat them mean to keep them clean, I think is wrong fundamentally because it talks about manipulation. OK, you have to be if you are not prepared to be honest and genuine in a relationship, then perhaps you're not ready for a relationship. I mean, I'm guessing that you're not being a street pickup artist here, so if you are looking for a fulfilling relationship, then you're got to forget about things like the.


Now, interesting point raised in my group was around well. Around people being taken for granted. And also people feeling claustrophobic. So this one was around, for example, I always do something and I do it and without any expectations, and so the other person devalues what I'm doing now. And the other one was around, I want to spend a lot of time with somebody I've recently met and they are kind of running away from it. The closer I try to get, the further they run away.


Now, again. Should we be using treat them and keep them? Again, I will say no, because it comes back to manipulation. That's not right. If there are issues around being taken for granted, well, that probably means that you have to start working on your communication, get to know each other properly, get to appreciate what each of you contribute to the relationship. And if the other person is feeling claustrophobic, it can be one or two reasons, maybe both of them.


One is that you may not have the same views in life. Maybe that person doesn't like to have a lot of interaction. It can also be that you have a problem that you are so. Trying to grab the other person so much that you're suffocating them, you know, maybe insecurities in your life and you trying to fulfill that by, you know, you won't let her go anywhere because you're afraid of, you know, if you can't live, you have to do everything together.


Y you know, OK, you may enjoy each other's company, but there is a limit to everything. And she may want to go out with her friends one evening and have a nice dinner and have a good chat. And she doesn't want you to be calling her every ten minutes to make sure which restaurant she's. You know, so there is. So there are things like that, and those things come back to managing the relationship, I suppose, setting the rules, as you said earlier on in the game, and clear expectations and having that meaningful conversation with each other so you understand each other's fears and problems.


And to be able to do that properly, then you've got to be a grown up. In other words, you're going to be able to have that conversation. And in that way, you're going to be able to be prepared to think that perhaps you are wrong as well, or maybe altogether to be able to self evaluate. So coming back to it, I think I felt anyway, if the others, even if the others didn't agree with me, I think they did, though.


Is that the fundamental keep them this thing around manipulation isn't right. I confused everybody enough or shall I tell you? Nothing, you you quite clear. Jenny, anyone got any questions? To Registerable. And is everyone in that group, in that group in agreement or any different views? OK, so the other men's group. What was your. Discussion. Well, thank you. We were talking about stuff, I think, a bit more earlier, early on.


So not not in I think in the sound world, I'm. And it's not you certainly don't want to s a manipulative, dynamic, I suppose, something where you're not being genuine with the other person. But we were talking more about sort of in the early days of our relationship and the sort of dating age when when there's this sort of there seems to be a sort of accepted wisdom that you shouldn't reply back too fast or it might show that you will need or that your you know, you haven't you haven't got a full social life that that you know, that that you're needing.


The other person is saying that it can give out negative signals sometimes that lie or reduce potential desirability of some people can think of. And obviously, we would certainly talking about messaging that it can be quite it can be interpreted in many ways, I suppose, but it's actually quite a poor method of communication in some respects because someone could even be working or something, you know, if they don't respond for a long time. So it's quite difficult to gauge.


And to gauge interest by certainly the you know, the Nixon response, which is one way that it may going to be about. I think about quantity and quality, I can I can I just say something?


I mean, if if if I was in that situation and she judge me based on the amount of time I took to get back to her or how quickly and she basically evaluated me based on that, then I have to say, in my opinion, she is so shallow that I wouldn't want to be with her anyway. I mean, if she is going to be judging me based on just that, then I have to say upfront, she is not the one for me.


Couldn't you but couldn't you sort that problem out by just communicating your circumstances? In other words, if you. In your job, it's very inconvenient for you to be texting, you know, your phone is whatever whatever it is that you do, you can't do it. I can talk to you maybe in the lunch break I can text you back or at the end of the day or before I get to work, but during my work hours. You're not you're likely not to hear from me rather than an assumption that because you don't hear from the person that they are in, you are whatever, they're ignoring you.


There is a clear understanding because to my mind, a lot of misunderstandings occur because we don't communicate.


Yeah, what? That's what I'm saying. Nothing.


What can I say something. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Basically I say this if somebody is earning money or they've got a career and you're the woman at the end of the day. If you're waiting for text messages, it's a bit insecure on your part, maybe it's a self-esteem or an ego situation. I think at the end of the day, in a relationship, when you go into it, you don't treat the means, keep them clean. But from the start, there has to be clear boundaries that the woman in my opinion, you can sit down for this, but the woman is the prize.


The man, if he wants the woman and he wants a long term commitment, not a wham bam. Thank you, ma'am. But if he actually wants commitment with a woman, then it's time for the woman to pay that price. And you, the woman has to treat us all through the relationship, not just from the start, but all from it. And it doesn't matter whether you don't hear from them or not. But at the end of the day.


It's when you do hear from them. Can you hear me? Sorry. Yeah. What are they saying to you? So it's two different worlds. The man wants the woman. The woman is the prize. She has to rise from the start of the relationship to the end of the relationship. Is not truly a man mean to keep him canids, treat them, let them know that you have standards and values and if he wants to keep the relationship going.


And to come to you is way too comfortable, then there's no challenge, there's no one in the Cape wanting to keep her happy. Woman's going to do things the man wants.


But if you're too easy and too nice and make them too comfortable, then they feel safe with you and they feel like they can take the piss basically. So if they know they can't do that with you, you're going to keep them interested. And keep them there if they if they want. That is just in my opinion, it's a it's a very fine line to be demonstrative.


It's a very traditional and also not because it's because of women. There's quite a women's movement to be stronger in relationships and things are moving away from those old traditional values. It can be quite difficult to find that balance.


Yeah, but if the woman's feminine, if you're a feminine woman and your feminine and your playing your part, you're playing the game. Well, as a woman, the man is going to play the game right to keep you. If he actually wants to, he's going to do that because he's invested in you, because you never easy from the start. He's invested time, money, energy into the connection. And he's not going to want to give that up.


But you can't the woman can't love that, because if she lowers that, then it should change the rules of the game. You think not? Do you think that's true? I mean, do you think that's a traditional more of a traditional way?


Well, I think that is changing, but yeah, I think I could be wrong.


No, I'm not saying it doesn't work. They would work for everyone. I mean, some of the you know, some of there are some women I know that wouldn't stand for that yet.


But I'm not talking about the women. I'm talking about the men.


But I'm not a commodity and I'm feminine, but I don't want to be treated as a price to be had.


I'm sorry, maybe, but you said earlier you thought what a relationship. Could you just come out of a marriage?


Yes, but that doesn't mean that I that I think that I am a commodity that's appointed point to different things in my marriage and the currency.


The currency of love.


Yes, but it's about the rules. There's a a buttonholing or a putting people into a stereotypical role. And I think when you get into relationships, you find that those boundaries are not as defined, but you have to have boundaries.


You have to have them. Otherwise you're going to be I think you have to have those boundaries in a relationship, because if they're not there and the boundaries can be pushed, that's when problems you're not going to get what you want as a woman.


No, I'm talking about this notion of what it is to be a woman and what you need to get out of a relationship versus what the man needs to do and what the man's role is. I have I have difficulty with that, OK? Because I don't see a man.


In particular, in one particular way, and that there's the role of a woman in another way, I would give an example of two friends of mine that a man is he does all that he needs to do, but he's the nurturer in the family.


He does.


What would traditionally be associated with the mother is the more patient, nurturing, loving the babies, walk them. That's good.


But I have no problem with that. That's good, because that suits the woman.


No, I would not. But what I'm saying is not about what suits the woman. What I'm saying is that that for some, but that does not play into the grain of it being the traditional boundary that is put before you even get to know the person. Because I am not expecting a man to get the baby. Maybe because, like, maybe the woman got a career, maybe the woman has a maybe the woman isn't good in that area and he is so alive and well he's good at.


But that's the point I'm making, that different people are good at things.


And because somebody needs to do this to make the value the woman, he needs to see her as a high value.


But one needs to value the man, too, in the same way the value the men get.


But the woman who valued the man, if he values her. Yeah, but OK, but it has to be an equivalent is not OK. The woman doesn't lie to the man just because the man values the woman. It's not.


No, she knows the man because of what he does.


When you're talking about the woman so so he should value you because of what you do, that's that the the value each other because of what you do, because if one does not give in and one's not put into the relationship, then it's an unequal balance. That has to be a balance. But you need to know where you stand.


Yeah, but standing and being does not mean that you have to enjoy stereotypical roles.


I mean, it's not like this woman. I have difficulty.


If you're a masculine woman, you're going to emasculate the man.


Not necessarily. Suppose the man loves it.


Said if it's submissive then yeah, it probably will.


But we cannot go into relationships with preconceived notions of what a person is going to be, because if they don't fulfill that idea in your head, then you talk.


Then you don't go into that relationship with that person. You go into the house with you or with somebody that you know that you want.


OK, OK, we make it a bit beg to differ. Just for a moment, Sarah. Yeah, OK. So what you talked about is the woman being the prize, the woman needing to be high value, the man needing to achieve that price. What I'm interested in is whether on what basis, like where where is the basis of this the them keep them Cain Park.


It's all to do with the trait, the make them Cain. If you go into a relationship as a woman from the start sleeping with a man on the first or second or third date, he's not going to value that relationship. He's if you're going to relationship from the start as a woman, as a high value woman, you're going to to go with a man that just wants you for sex.


You're going to you're going to entertain a man that knows how he knows what he wants. And if he wants you, he's going to behave in a certain way and you're going to let him know from the start by your actions. And by the way, you are the way you want to be treated, which is as of a high value woman. And then he is then going to try his best to win you over, to get you into a relationship.


And if you start that way, then you keep it that way. Yes. As a woman, you are then going to appreciate him. You're going to be loving, you're going to be kind, you're going to be supportive if you're going to be all of those things that he's looking for in a woman or a wife or a long term relationship. But I feel that going into it, that is how you need you need to have your game head on as a woman.


That that is what you're looking for and you're not going to take anything less. Yes, I mean, that's that's why a lot of relationships are. But that's a finite time. Really, because it means that the relationship, because what it means is it's about battle for power, for control.


I don't think so. I don't think so. I don't think so. I think it is that that you've got standards and you've got morals and you've got a way about you and the. That I think that men like that they like they like not to have a woman that is like, you know, you get men that they have women and they just view them as a comfortable pair of shoes. They feel like they can do anything because that woman's not going anywhere.


They don't feel like they need to try hard after the honeymoon period. It's like I don't have to do that anymore because I did it then and now I can stop. OK, but I don't feel like that should ever stop on AVL part for the woman as well. I'm not saying it's one sided. I just think, in my opinion that relationships will work that way because the man is working towards making you happy. If he thinks he doesn't have to try anymore, then he wants to.


So if I just see the game of relationships, we play it in whichever way that we feel makes sense based on the narrative that we have. The problem, I feel with the. Strategy is that what you're saying is to be high value, to be the price you have to be something of them is natural to, you know, to be yourself. So I think I think we've explored.


I mean I mean that if you bend over backwards and become to you have to keep a logical head on as a woman. Think if you become a fairy head in the clouds because you see all the time men going off with younger women, men screwing women over. I think if a woman doesn't have a level of logic about it, I think she's going to get screwed.


I say something. I think what Sarah trying to say, if I understand correctly, is that women initially needs to have some self-respect. And yeah, and they and they need to value themselves, and so by seeing it go not to get desperate to try and attract attractive move, that means going to bed with them on the first day. And so that's what I'm going to do, because effectively, that's other than being disrespectful to yourself, that's also not being genuine because it's just desperate.


I think that's what I was trying to get at here, if I understood you correctly. Yeah. To begin with. Yeah. And then throughout the relationship, obviously keep the self-respect as negotiable. Yeah.


Because I feel like they need to know where the boundaries are and how far they can go, because if they think that they are gone now. So I put in all that work and I've got it now and now I can do I like the No. They need to know that I know of like if I have to put in the work, I'll have to keep this going because I want to keep this relationship because she's not going to put up with my shit.


The that comes back to, I guess, when you're in the relationship, not to take the other person for granted. Exactly.


That's your job, to make them feel good. Can I just say something? I mean, I understand the gentleman who was saying, like, attitudes to traditional roles are changing. I'm just not sure that evolution is quite happy. And I'm just not sure, you know, that trying to modernize this whole dating thing works. I mean, that's just my opinion.


OK, I'm. I agree. I think I think there's a nuance, which is why I wanted to discuss it in gender groups, I think. This is what men always feel. But I feel that there is more nuance to it, I think Carol brought out really well the nuance in what Sarah is saying in that it's a yes, you do need to establish your standards and not draw. But I think there is a level of playing a game where it becomes more manipulative.


But I just like to go back to. The second men's group before we move on to the women's group. To see if there was any different different point of views. So we relate in respect, the exercise, break, exercise and treatment mean keep em keen, yeah, we still still in the group yet again echoing what I've got in my group out of England.


And so it's been quite quick.


But yes, I think we're saying the speed at which you text back determines how needy you are from from one side. And I guess that goes into potentially how dependent you are on the other person to fulfill your needs. And because you don't know a lot about somebody, you don't have a lot to go on and therefore you're trying to figure them out. Obviously, the content of your message, you are able to see more of a person and then you can realize that they're an independent person.


They've got their things together. They can kind of settle down and they know what they're looking for. But in the first few stages, there's probably an explanation for why you sort of engage in this kind of subconscious dance where you're trying to just figure each other out. And I guess it goes onto a little bit more about appearing to be who you are rather than trying to be someone that you think you should be. And I think that comes back to authenticity and yeah, there being some other good comments about communication.


And you can't really you can't really know what the other person is thinking unless you ask them or unless you go into that as a conversation. So to constantly be texting with the presupposition that the other person is thinking that you're behaving a certain way is kind of a hiding to nothing. So it's much better to probably ask straight up like, yeah, this is who I am, who are you? And I'm at work and I might have a Delamar response and just be honest about it, I guess.


Yeah, I think there is strength in authenticity and being.


I don't like to use the word high value, because I don't think. It's helpful to see people as high value, low value, different people as the person is right for you, not right. Whereas when we're looking at high value, low value, what we're making judgments about people based on what we want.


And so it's yeah, it's maybe even reframe that to say not high value, but strong values. You know, what you stand for and you know what you stand and therefore you can enter into any sort of relationship, friendship, companionship or like relationship of work because you know who you are and what you stand for. And that's what everybody else does as well. I guess so. And by default, you become high value because you have strong values.


Yeah, yeah.


And you clearly communicate who you are. I'm you're only just just before you speak. Thank you for putting your hand up. I think we get excited in the conversation. It's easy to to to jump in because we we've got something to say while it's relevant. So if we can, like, put up a handle on that so that we can make sure we and the other person finish. Probably had something to say, yeah, so we were talking about not to, uh, consider a person as high value or low value based on like how fast we text are based on our behavior to one person or whatever.


But when but practically this is how the things are working.


But the moment when we see someone as high value are low value, then it obviously affects our ego and it would stop us from us seeing the good in the other person.


So. That's totally different from what the value which we stand for. So how does it work when they when it comes to a relationship?


Can you really not use the words low value and high value? I really think that it's demeaning to people. Let's not go there. Yeah, the the problem is that, like from when I try to find something to understand, what about to try to get to know about the human psychology or like to get into more like how to get into a good relationship, whatever you find, Internet or YouTube. So it all talks about like be a high value man and be a high value woman.


But I finally find it totally absurd and like, it doesn't fit into my values or it's the whole dating experience is quite new for me. I come from India, so like I live in Germany. So it's a totally different culture when I get exposed to a different culture. But it totally to a whole new experience that why do we judge people?


Why do we make why do we create such an ego at first place? And why do we want to, like, build up a relationship on top of the ego? So why do we keep playing all these games? So that is what it's been wondering from.


You know, I've been making my head since ever since I get into this. I just like to suggest that I is going to hand out next, but I just want to the whole high value, low value thing, if you think about it, it's. Comes from someone trying to sell you something if they're trying to sell you a system, they have to say that you're going to get the prize, the high value partner, so that you follow what they say.


People are people that are just because someone's got what makes someone high value, because they have more money, because they're prettier, because they have something, there's people that you are right for you, but it's not like everyone is in a hierarchy and some are better than others. Everyone. Is worthy of him and respect everyone has value as a human, it's just who's right for you and the quote that hierarchical quality, it doesn't mean like this comes from like ranking.


I think it probably comes from where men would rank women as number and say, like, I want a 10, so I've got my game so I can get a 10 and. None of that has any relation to long term relationships, long term relationship is it doesn't after a few years, doesn't really matter what someone looks like. You know, you've got used to them if you want. You've got into that relationship, you're comfortable with them. It's the qualities that they have.


And when they talking about high value, it's typically typically not those qualities. It's it's looks it's I conveyed on a high standard, personal or whatever it is.


So I think it's worth knowing where something comes from by to then judged the how effective it is. Sarah, you had your hand patiently. Sorry to keep you waiting. Hi, can you hear me? Yes. So high value, obviously, I've got my makeup on at the moment. So when I say high value, it doesn't it doesn't necessarily mean to do with looks what you you know, what job you do, where you live. I mean, I live in a housing association house.


I've got no makeup on my face and my place is decorated and I'm a carer. I look after a nine to six year old and my daughter has Asperger's and lives at home with me. So when I say how I value it might come across in a derogatory term, maybe that's not the best way to put it. But the whole point was treat the and keep them clean. And the fact that a relationship is a game. Yeah. So what I was trying to convey is this.


If you want a soulmate, a twin flame, I actually solid committed relationship. Yeah. Then you have to have your values, your morals, you have to know what you want them from the start, because if you don't as a woman, you are going to be approached, especially on tight insight, because a lot of them and not all of them, a lot of the men are just looking for sex. Yeah. And a lot of men will approach you on the street looking for sex.


Yeah. And if you don't value yourself and know what you want as a woman, if you don't have a game plan from the start, you are going to get mugged enough because these men are approaching you because they want to have sex with you, not because they want to get married and have them.


Yes, that's true. But I'm sorry I have to bottom, but I refuse to look at all men and approach and think that hateful and violent.


And I'm not saying, oh, man, please, I'm not a doctor.


No, no, no, darling, whatever, because that's like you're speaking down to me first and foremost and saying, what was I?


We are disrespecting men. I think we're disrespecting men. Please let me finish. I say I think we're disrespecting men when we look at them and think that the only thing that they want from us is sex. I don't agree with that. Well, that sure was a woman.


All right, mixology look, I said I said, don't, darlin, don't I respect your opinion, but can you let me finish?


Because I did put my hand up and what did I say? That I could speak. So you can speak of the ME, if that is OK with you.


I don't mean to disrespect you and asking you not to call me darling. I'm not your darling. I realized by telling me that. Hey, Sandra, can you have ok.


OK. Will you stay here if you want to finish and then we will go.


Oh quickly. I'll let you finish. I'll work it out. My point was this, my point was this, that if a man like you and approaches you, if you want to weed out and you want to find what it is he wants from you. Yeah. As a woman, in my experience, then you need to be you need to be stuck in your values. Stuck in your morals. No what you want. So when he approaches you.


Yeah. You don't get a fair way and carried away and buy into whatever they're trying to sell you, you know what you want. I want to fly or soul mate. I want a spiritual connection. This is what I want out of a relationship. I want something long term. So when that man approaches you, that is your game plan. You already know what you want. You're not going to get swept along with the winds of the tides with his pants.


It's OK. Yeah, you know what you want. So when someone comes to, you know, they want. So then you're not going to jump into bed with them straight away, because if you do that, how you start a relationship is continuous, because if a man sees you as a friends with benefits or someone that he can just have sex with, he's going to view you that way. In my humble opinion, I could be wrong.


This is just how I see it. So if you want your strategy, your game for life is I am looking for somebody who is going to be loyal, devoted and loving, and I'm going to be the same and I'm going to give them the same without mocking myself. I'm bending over backwards. I've done the work on myself. I haven't got daddy issues. I don't need to fix things from my past. My past is fixed up, released my negative emotions and limiting beliefs.


So if I go into a relationship, I know what I want and I want somebody who is the same as me and I know how to play that situation. I had to play my cards right. Yeah. So anybody can see how they want to see in that way. It is. You have to play your cards for it, in my opinion. Unless Baltasound about. OK, right, thank you for that. OK, so we're going to move on.


The first okay, so what have we got any more from the ladies group who's got. Something different to add. I said, I can follow that really strong opinion, I was in that group and I I didn't fully agree with that, but I do understand what she's saying about, you know, what you want from it when you're going in. My take on it was that. Maybe my experiences are completely different to hers, but I've always been like just quite straight up with people, that doesn't mean just jumping into things.


That just means being your real self and not playing games. I kept getting the feeling that what was coming across the times was that, you know, if you were if you didn't if you were being your real self, that meant you were going to do. I don't know. It will all go wrong. I don't know. Maybe I'm hearing it differently, but I don't know. I just I just felt like you just connect with people. You just be yourself and be just straight up, you know, quite I think quite soon, if you like, people know.


And then just be honest about if you just find it interesting, you know, we're just not really that compatible. But what do I know? I don't know. I just so new to me, you know, I, I, I agree.


I think it's easy to react from pain and from fear. And I think I can make his guarded. What I'm really interested in is that what I've noticed, this idea of keeping them keen to treat them means keep them going mostly comes from men and it often comes in a relationship where men will feel their partners lost respect for them and got bored because they got what they want. So I'm really interested in women addressing. Like this, so said one of the barriers.


And I I can see where men see this and I can see how it develops, but I've never quite worked out the nuance.


And I know women typically see it very differently, so I'm really interested in women talking about. A man. Feels that that given everything and then the woman's lost respect and lost interest. I don't I don't know why that would happen if I don't know. I wouldn't lose interest in a man or lose respect for him if he was just being genuine.


So but then maybe I'm an unknown and I don't know, I just I don't see I don't know if they have women here. I think that I wouldn't lose respect or interest in man just because I got what he thought. I wanted an enormous board. I don't know. That's just. But I will say that I'm not very I'm not very typically female, you know, I was and as you know, as a physio, I have my own career.


I had my own home at twenty four. I didn't bother to get married till I was five. And then I have my children at forty, forty three and then about start a whole new again approaching 50. I don't really care about stereotypes or what's expected of me really. So I wouldn't say that maybe my view views typical and I've got a lot of male friends and lots of Irish friends, so I don't view men in that way if they've got value to me as a potential and so to it.


I don't know. I said I'm quite baffled by that, that kind of mentality that I think you would. And maybe it's because I've got close friends that now I wouldn't sort of have the idea that you would treat the men to keep in pain. I just don't get it is really alien to me. I just I just I just don't get my head around that, I guess I'm just quite straightforward with people and how. But that doesn't mean that I would behave in a different way.


Disrespectful by. I don't know, maybe, as I say, it's too soon for me and it's just I'm just quite baffled by that. OK, I find it very difficult. I'm sorry, but I find it very difficult to.


Grasp the notion that we are commodities. To be desired or not desired, to be not seen as of.


Sufficient worth, based on some set of criteria that you don't know you're being judged by, that's one that we have rules that are predefined. That we should fit into. I just you know, I just I find that all of that very difficult. Sorry. Yeah. Can I can I just say I think that was one way, one interpretation. And Sarah's talked about that. Have you? And I know there are people who play the game of relationships in that way.


So we're not saying everyone gets to choose how they play the game.


And we know the Sarah. It's also the keepon mean thing. It's the whole thing, not just theories. It's just everything being, you know.


Yeah, OK, so. But we got Sheila and Alan. I'm not sure he was first, but I will let ladies go first in traditional roles if I say Kialla.


Thanks, Allan. Thanks, Rob. And I think from my point of view, I grew up in in the 80s with the you know, with all the government TV adverts about AIDS and everything and from, you know, traditional, you know, being touted originally as a girl. You know, you've got to be careful, guys. Well, is to sit with you and everything like that and everything Sarah said, you know, but I think I'm old enough now, wise enough to know differently for myself sometimes have moved on in terms of saying guys treating girls is the main ticket.


McCain. I think that stereotyping, you know, having been in a relationship, I think some some guys may do that and they still do that. But I don't think it's the same for every guy. And I think, as Sandra said, it's disrespectful to the stereotype stereotype of guys like that. In my situation, I feel that, you know, sometimes guys don't. There is that feeling that perhaps the guy thinks you are what you need.


But I think there's also that other side of the coin and that guys perhaps are not as forthcoming with their replies or communication because they are busy, just as women are busy with their careers and their lives like gets in the way, but also because perhaps they don't want they don't want to give the wrong impression that. I shall put it that. That the female or the guy from either side is moving too fast from them, they don't perhaps have worked to have that communication, to give the impression that they are moving too fast and that probably possibly holding back, standing back because they're not ready for that yet.


Can can I just ask a question, the web. I've seen it most has been in long term relationships. So this isn't where I typically say it isn't so much about the dating. I know there is that whole dating vibe thing, but it's typically an explanation or that men have of of relationships like never too much. She got everything she needed from me and then she was looking somewhere else.


In my experience, I haven't come across that, and admittedly, I've only been in a long term relationship off and on with one guy, and I think we're at the point where it's not so much as you know. Street, the main ticketing, and it's more a case of perhaps not. Necessarily wanting or knowing yet what we both want or not wanting the same thing, and it's trying not to hurt each other. This is not a case of treating them and to keep them clean.


If anything, it's the other way around, perhaps trying to let them down. Without being hurtful. But the other side might not see it like that. And that could come from the guy, Odigo. It is the problem here, the red meat, I'm thinking that this from a guy's perspective, and I suppose maybe this is where it comes from, which is a typical comment. Yeah.


And I'm, you know, say, for example, you did you were just a kid packs a lot of what you just did, everything that the other person said. And I don't think a woman would like that. I think they want some challenge in a bad way or the power structure, but they want a dynamic Artspace dynamic is a the visual display and everything they say.


And they say, I I think that I think there are a couple of things.


One, I think a relationship should be equal. And I don't mean that each side does exactly the same thing. It's whatever each other is good at and what each other want from that relationship. The other side of that is, you know, if that were the case, I wouldn't disrespect the guy. I think and certainly from my own experience, you can whether that's in a relationship or a job or whatever, you can't become complacent and not realize it.


And it's sort of like just Dritz. And I think sometimes you can grow apart because you're not growing together or at different speeds, and that can be in a relationship or a job or anything else in life, it's not you're not disrespecting your partner. You've just taken them for granted, but not realizing it. Thank you for that, Sheila. And Alan. He still. Yeah, I just wanted to just kind of give us like a little bit of an alternative point of view just to pick up on a couple of points that are being raised this evening.


I don't think it's helpful to, you know, to kind of separate things into gender, because at the end of the day, we're all human beings and we're all here because we want to learn more about having successful relationships. And as is spoken about in previous weeks for people who haven't been in attendance is what the most important thing is for having a successful relationship is to have a good relationship with yourself. And you're never going to have a good relationship with somebody else if you don't have that good relationship with yourself.


Because if you are seeing yourself. Let's keep it simple and go from the term that was used before high value or low value, if you see yourself as a low value person, which is low self-esteem, you know, you don't have a high and high worth. You don't feel like you contribute to things that you don't think you particularly attractive, regardless of how you look. And then that is going to be reflected in the relationship you're going to have with somebody else.


Consequently, if you think that you're amazing that you can get anyone, you once you've got this big, amazing job and, you know, X amount of money, then again, who's going to be good enough for you? I think the most important thing is to be, you know, is awareness and to see any sort of relationship from an equal standpoint. Not all men want to have sex with people on the first date. I certainly don't.


And I don't have any interest in it whatsoever, to be quite honest, on most of my friends. And I do have quite a lot of friends very, very long enough. And I think exactly the same way as well. I did show is just that it is just a stereotype and put where it was coming from and treat them and keep them. Kimura's was just kind of from the almost from the beginning of the balance of of any shows of relationships and particular points.


And final point that I wanted to make was in relation to people getting comfortable in relationships. We all know about people and I'm just using this generically and people put on weight on or are no longer trying and and, you know, not not engaging in conversation anymore. I personally think that you should always try. It's not like you're making friends with somebody and then go, you know, I'm not going to bother talking to them anymore and I'm not going to bother going to these social events.


I think ultimately, as I said at the very beginning, it's about having a good relationship yourself and you've got to keep it real. You can't suddenly be doing, you know, all these physical things and mental things and the tendency of groups to better yourself and go through all of these connections so you get a better body.


And then as soon as you get with the know, you will actually go, you know, I've got this person I and now I don't have to go to the gym and now I don't have to work on myself. I personally don't think it should work like that. I think it's about because there's no end game. You know, you're right. It is an infinite game. I there's no way I could go right. And I was thinking about relationship now, so I'm just going to give up.


I don't and I think nobody nobody ever will. So it really only the Internet game rather than the sonic.


I'm just just to pick up there's a couple of things, I mean, one of the things I wrote I write down is about patriarchy.


And I think it was to do with, like the roles in society that the roles in society that we've been given.


Traditional roles are. A reflection of our culture and a reflection of our cultural history and and that we're all products of a patriarchal society, and what that means is that we've been conditioned not just from our parents, not just from school, even though we've grown up with a more egalitarian view of relationships, but our whole culture has imbued us with what it means to be a man, what it means to be a woman, and why we're not limited. To those constraints, I don't think we have to play the game as in man, female, masculine and feminine.


I think we can set the rules of of whatever we want to play the game.


But we are products of that conditioning. I do think there are biological differences. And the reason I think there is a big gap between men and women in which is a problem of communication and a way of viewing. And so that's the reason why I feel it's sometimes helpful. And what I wanted to get at tonight was the different views of men and women on the second topic, just just to just say, I'm Sarah.


We we've heard a lot about your view, but I don't want it to be like this is about diversity of opinion, so I don't want to go too too long. But do you have something new to add? Yeah, yeah, I do, yeah, yeah, so all of a side is that yeah, I feel for them, I feel for men. If men feel like what they're doing isn't enough for a woman. I do feel for that.


I think maybe I might come across in the wrong way. Maybe I can express what I meant in the right way. Yeah, I know roles have changed and altered everything else, but what I was trying to say is that a man, when he first approaches a woman, it's because of the way she looks. Yeah, and if a woman is an. Doesn't know exactly what it is she wants from the star. She could maybe get played because they are.


I'm not saying all I know, not all because there's a lot of men that don't want to have sex for a very long time. I understand that. But what I was trying to say is that there are men that do want that. And as a woman, high value, in my opinion, doesn't mean. Yeah. OK, so let me break it down. Obviously, yes. Most men are going to go for the way you look because that's what they're going to be attracted to.


I'm sorry if it's stereotypical and if I've got it all wrong, but I in my opinion, men go for how a woman looks. If a woman looks rough on the street and not all that, I can't see them approaching her if she looks beautiful. And it does whatever you say beauty is, if she looks put together, makeup, dress nice, smells nice, looks good, then probably they're going to approach that woman. And if they approach that woman and she sleeps with them straight away, then they're going to got what they wanted.


And now she isn't the prize because they got it straight away. And if they could get it straight away, it means that any man could get it straight away and now they're not. I don't I don't know if I'm coming across wrong. Maybe I'm old fashioned in my finkin. I don't know. But my point was that if you look good and take care of yourself. It doesn't matter. I don't mean high value in that way, I just mean in the way that you carry yourself if you want.


In my opinion, as a woman, if you want to attract a man and get a long lasting relationship, that means anything. You know, you have to treat them nice. Yeah. Let them take the lead in a certain way. Yes. Maggie Thatcher was a brilliant prime minister. I'm in love that I'm I'm a leader. I'm a Leo. Yeah. So I am full of confidence. Yeah. But saying that when you meet someone in the beginning.


I feel like they want to take the lead in a certain way, and if you allow them to do that in and and you have some morals and self-respect, you then in the game of a relationship, you're going to be in a better position to get the relationship that you want. And if you want to keep that relationship and keep them interested and wanted to know more wanting to be with you, then I feel like you need to stay at that level.


Because if you lower the bar, the thing that can happen is that they can get both complacent and then neglect to and just feel like you're there and it doesn't really matter.


I'm not saying all men will do that, OK? But I'm just saying that if you want to play the game, well, then maybe you need to keep these things up, because if you don't, you could get screwed. But it's just in my opinion.


OK, thank you. And OK, so. Does anyone else have anything to add to the whole thing, keep making? Perspective, should we move on? I know we we're running a bit late, but there's was one more thing if if if you have time, I'd like to share. We are for time, most people, like I say. Part of the thing about. An infinite game is that. So when we look at, like, the fairy tale, it's a finite game because it means there's a pressure to find one, there's a pressure to win someone over, there's a pressure.


There's the social pressure for people who are less like social pressure on people who are single, like single, which is less. It's like you're not doing as well as the pressure of like when we divorce or when we split up, it feels like a failure.


And a lot of that is. Social pressure emerges when we're looking at the infinite game, then wherever we are is just a place. So if we. Her and alone, that's just the place if we're lonely, that's just a place if we're dating, that's just a place if we were in a relationship and not so happy, that's just a place. And it's it's more about moving to where we are, where we want to be. So I'm just going to share something of the way I visualized that.


And this is what I call the relationship landscape. And she's maturing. But basically this for me is like the landscape of relationship. I realize what I have left office is this single and happy. And I think that's because most people are usually looking to be in a relationship. There are some people that are quite happy being single, but said basically it's I've got the better balance. This is where people are sworn off relationships because they've been hurt in the past and they're scared to try.


There's heartbreak hell, which is like that period where you've been hurt and you're healing. There's the toxic trap where people get into a toxic relationship. Frustrating flames refers to when someone wants to be in a long relationship, but the relationship just stopped working out. Maybe that's not the right person. Maybe the person is not committing. The dating doldrums are when you're dating and it's not really working out and you're fed up and and it's not really going any further.


It's domestic drudgery when you're in a relationship that's got into that domestic state. But it's just it's not really work and it's just drudgery. And then there's a little bit of bliss by where everything is, how you want it to be in your relationship. So for me, for the infinite game is about knowing that we will probably go through most of these. Most of us go through most of these some time or another. So it's not. That we've lost, it's just that this is where we are, where do we want to be?


So does that make sense and does that? Speak to anyone in terms of how we do relationships. Or is it a conversation killer? OK, did does that that doesn't make any sense, I didn't. I have something I want in a minute, sir. I didn't hear the question. OK, so basically. If you are to view. So I feel that there is from this patriarchy, from this whole society, I think there's cultural pressure on people to be in the relationship.


There's cultural pressure that feels like you failed if your relationship has worked out. And I know. I was the one who decided I didn't want to be in my marriage anymore. I was the one who took the choice to separate. And yet when the divorce papers came, I still felt a little bit of a felt. Is that feeling that something even I logically might not feel it. And I know lots of people feel I've never really felt like when I was single, it never really felt it was fine.


It was my choice. But I remember once I was there, I was at an event and someone said, well, you know, why? Why is your partner not here? And I said, I'm single. And she goes, Oh, I'm sorry. I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry why I'm single. So I never felt like that. And I know particularly probably more for women who've reported it to me, but they feel like it's a judgment on them and it feels like it's something they're not doing right.


It's something that they're not, which I think goes back to where there was all this pressure on spinsters that if you didn't find a husband, you were left on the shelf and you were a burden to your family from a time when when women didn't have. Means to. Means to earn their own money and to be independent. I don't know if does anyone feel that pressure, feel that sense of value, cultural value. I can just tell you about something that ironically happened to me today, there's a conversation going on in my workplace between myself and a couple of the ladies that were there.


And just, of course, a long story short, you know, they made the comment. I made the comments, and then I said something and then reply came by and it was just like it was nothing to do with the conversation so that the darick, like on the girls come in. So he comments came back and the comment was as follows. And I remind you, it is me who is married and you are not. And I say, OK, I did I didn't reply to it at all.


So we just kinda like walked away at that point because it was just like a bit of humor. But I think that passion meant it. But I went back into into the room on my own and give it a little bit of contemplation. I was thinking.


That person said that as like an offensive thing towards Michelle. And clearly she's marriage a success, even though I know that she doesn't have a good marriage and a lot of problems in the relationships she's telling me about and domestic abuse within that relationship. She doesn't have a good relationship with the shelf. And I kind of like thought to myself, well, how is it that you can make a judgment that you're better off than what I am based upon the fact that you're in a relationship with somebody and what she doesn't know whether I am or not, but she just said about the marriage.


So I just thought I'd share that with you just in relation to what you mean.


Yeah, people do that. People do that kind of thing. And. It's basically when you if you analyze it, what it basically amounts to is that they don't have a logical argument. And so they're going to try and shame it. This is like an attempt to to cut like stop me from talking by insinuating that, yeah, that they're doing better. And this is something.


So so I look at where's the journey?


So, like, if you're looking at in relationships and this is something I've given a lot of thought to, is where's the journey like where's the high point with the low point in order that you can. Like progress like this, like we do in a journey to. To have better relationships, to have that like feel better about our relationships and yet.


There is this view that it's better to be in a relationship, and yet so many people are in bad relationships, they're miserable in that they're much happier being single. And yet there is this view that, like you say, like this whole Facebook idea of look how happy I am, you know what I'm going to break up with and see in two weeks. And I think this is really where we're not honest. And we don't have honest conversations about relationship because there is so much shame created and.


That shuts down conversations.


But also, I think we have to look at relationships in the context of our communities, you know, our friends, because when you're a part of a couple and I suppose that's why there is some status given to we are married, you know, I'm part of a couple. And so we have friends who are maybe more than likely also couples and we fit in there. If you sever the ties of that marriage, then you you will find that you could be.


An outcast from that group, so and by that, your status then is diminished, so to speak, and maybe some people would rather not have to face all of that kind of change, you know, at work in the end with your friends. And they put up with the relationship for all of its deficiencies so that they can maintain the status quo, because that's their that's where they're comfortable and it means a lot to them. And your total life would become uprooted, in a sense, your friendships, your where you are, because marriage is a desirable state to be in a society.


You know, and I I agree with you, Sandra, and I think it also works the other way where, you know, when your friends start getting married and having children and you're not, you also lose that social circle because you're not a couple. You don't have children. And therefore, as a single person, you surely cannot understand or you no longer have things in common. You can't talk about your children. You know, when they are meeting, when they're married, they meet other couples and you're single and not in a relationship.


So, again, whether that's out of embarrassment or out of because you don't have as much in common anymore, you're no longer invited to these events. So I think a lot of sometimes people go into relationships so they don't lose that friendship circle that they have. My. So go ahead. So I think that this all boils down to that being a universal need and desire to be loved, and that keeps us from having to. Fear of dying.


And how. That's a very singular thing, you can only do it on your own.


And I think that relationships actually cover that and prevent you from from having an existential crisis, because you I think you're so far removed from an existential crisis when you're inside someone, for example. Because that's like the opposite of when you die, because when you die, you don't die alone. I think I think when life is like, yeah, I think. So the way I see it is life is a solo journey, but we need to be a part of the pack and.


It's the pack for survival. So when you say it's about the existential, do you mean like I'm interested in learning a little bit more detail? I don't really know how else to say it, except it really is that we all have a need to be loved, even if it doesn't look like we do. We all want to be loved. Maybe that maybe that desire is stronger in people who have not had a good to haven't felt loved by their parents.


That can be very strong. But I think what it does. Is that desire, it's to stop us from thinking about what it might mean to die. And I think actually the group. Is what gives us life. The energy of all other people, the love of other people belonging. Yeah, I think in Sarajevo, you know, so I sort of have and but it doesn't doesn't this effectively come back to realizing your own self-worth and being a lot more confident in yourself?


I mean, you have to to some degree feel that you are OK. I mean, love yourself. I guess to some degree. I don't mean full of yourself, but I mean. Being being confident in yourself such that you can withstand the pressures of society. So, as Sheila pointed out, as your friends get married and have children, you may very well find that you no longer have enough in common to be able to retain that friendship circle.


Well, then you may need to perhaps find a different friendship circle. Easier said than done. I get it. But on your journey, that environment is no longer suitable for you and therefore you need to change. I mean, life is full of changes and change provides us with this comfort. I get that, but also provides us with new opportunities. So by feeling more confident in yourself, you can kind of accept that things are changing or you may have a longing to be loved and all the rest of it is, as it was pointed out, and that.


That's true. Everybody likes it. I mean, we all like a bit of a pep talk and an ego boost and all the rest of it, but. And maybe there will be something to the point that if you have had some sort of luck in your life, that that kind of fulfills that. But I think the real growth has to be in your character in that you need to. You need to learn to love yourself and realize that actually you are OK.


Work in progress, but you are OK. Yes, yeah, yeah, I agree, and that is just incredibly hard to do. It's just it's so, so, so hard to sustain this as well. And I'm sorry, I was just going to say they're there. Well, I'm not gonna say it's easy to do. There are ways of doing it. But yes, I think well, one one way I've done it with a with but it was mainly with career was to look at all the positive things in life that you have done that you achieved.


And to see that actually even in hard times. I think your own behavior in response to it, that if you have acted with integrity, with honesty, Shilpi, and realizing that you've done all those things, I think should also give you enough confidence to hold your head up high. I mean, I've been through, for example, redundancy. And as you know, I've been through a long marriage breakup and I don't sit here feeling ashamed that it's happened because I look back on it and actually.


Even though at the time I felt embarrassed to have been made redundant, it was the first time it happened to me. I mean, how can I potentially be made redundant? You know, I was good at my job and all the rest of it. But just because I had strong values in life, I was very much positioned sometimes, you know, the job I had defined me as a person and naturally, when you lose that, you feel worthless as a person.


But when that happened, I. Started looking within myself and I got in touch with a book or Koby's book, and when I looked into that, I realized that actually I had the wrong view of the world and what mattered was integrity. And then I think back on it, actually, I behaved naturally and I don't know why, but I behaved with so much integrity at the time. But now I understand why the people who made redundant were embarrassed because it was made for the wrong reasons, but that's beside the point.


The point is that. My behavior forced them to reflect on their behavior and they felt embarrassed at the time, I was embarrassed. But then when I look back on it now, I realize that by just behaving properly, I made them embarrassed. And so when you realize that, you kind of realize, hey, you know, it doesn't matter whether I am divorced or I am, I've being made redundant or whatever. Look, it's been it's been a great experience for me.


I've grown up as a result of it. It's been a positive thing. I'm not saying I enjoyed the lesson, but I think it was a lesson I needed to have. It's allowed my character to grow and become a stronger character. And I don't sit here feeling embarrassed because I'm divorced, because I'm not a wife beater, I'm not an abuser, I am not a cheater. I behave with full integrity as far as I'm concerned. I'm not perfect by any means and I'm not an angel at all.


But I don't think. That bad, so to speak, I've got my faults, yes, and so is everybody else on this call, but it doesn't make me less of a person just because I'm divorced, because I behave with integrity throughout and during divorce as well. Yes, I got angry and we shouted at each other and, you know, so you and sort your back and all the rest of it. But at the end of the day, I feel I always made the choices with good intentions and I made decisions with consideration.


And because of that, I feel self-worth and value in my stuff. I can sleep well at night. You know, anyone can. That's why I feel comfortable talking to you and you heard me talk quite freely about my life and my marriage, and that's why I feel comfortable talking about it, because I feel I have behaved with integrity throughout and during. And I think if we can do that and realize that you're doing that, then I think you realize that you are a good person, not a perfect person, just a good person.


And in a way, you know, that is all that you need to be. Sound unlike a Bible preacher. I was just thinking, we've got the Schakowsky who's about to be next up, but I think we need we need a name for our role as well. We'll think on that while. Paul Allen. Yeah. Any ideas in the chat box? But we're now going to go see. I feel like I need a drum roll, but we're now going to go to the Scouts, Greg.


And I say that that's an excellent introduction. Thank you, Rob. Yeah, I was just kind of see one of the things that we all need is connection with other people. I think one of the things that we've got here, you know, you spoke earlier on, Rob, about about being part of a group or being one of the fundamental things are being part of a group is having connection with other people. And that connection is shared ideas, shared values, shared thoughts.


You don't necessarily have to agree with everybody, but you can still see feel the respect elements coming from other people. But when? In regards to your original comment about society's views on people who are single or as I like to call it, an issue of relationship, well, I know the vast majority of people wouldn't be able to cope on their own. And I think it requires a great deal of strength and from the individual to be able to come home of an evening when you've had a bad day and not be able to speak to your partner because you don't have one and go, you know, this is what happened and that's what happened.


I think that those require a lot of strength and it also gives you the ability not to rely on other people. And I think perhaps and I don't want to speak for anybody else, but. I would personally prefer it if it didn't have to rely on anybody else at all, and I don't mean from a nasty point of view because I'm a very sociable person. But I, I would rather be self-reliant and then have other people around me, not because I feel like I need to get things off my chest, though, because I have a need within certain areas of my life.


And that's kind of what my goal is at the moment. I want to be self-reliant and I don't want to be because I would hate to be in a situation where I thought to myself, you know. I've got to stay with this person, because if it if it don't have means, I'm on my own, which you see all the time. You know, I speak to people every single day with you know, I spoke last week about fear, where fear is the biggest part of a person's a person's life.


And that's not something that I want. It is difficult, though, I'm not saying it's it's an easy road to go down, but there's no point in an acceptance and think that at the end of day isn't right. So you can go, yeah, I'm in a relationship because a couple of years or a couple of months down the road, that relationship's going to fail because ultimately it was never right in the first place. And then you're going to be not even at square one, you're going to be worse than we were before because you're older and you're certainly not wiser and you've got another failed relationship and behind you.


So I think just keeping an eye on yourself and and having a good attitude would certainly we can all hate each other. We can all see each other, and we all have the freedom to do what we want to be with. We don't want to continue with this session. We can cancel it off. So there's a lot of things in life to be grateful for. But one of the things that that we do, we do as human beings is to once the thing that we don't have in this case, we're talking about relationships or, you know, it will come.


You just got to you just got to believe it. But that's just my opinion. You've just got to keep. That belief that things will come back, though, are those blessings are there waiting for us. But we've got to be ready for those lessons. Otherwise of that blessing comes when we're not ready, then it won't be a blessing at all. And maybe it'll pass passes by or we won't be prepared for it. So we'll lose it.


So you just got to be patient. Hmmm, I, I, I think you're right, I think. The less you need, the easier it is to be happy, and if you can live alone, you know, like people talk about the Dalai Lama and people like that has been these great white people. But it's all these enlightened people, but it's easier. To be enlightened and to be calm and peaceful when you don't have a family, when you don't have like the domestic life of most people.


So I think if you're able to be self-reliant and that has its own challenges, as most of us have a need to share our life and have support. So, yeah, I agree. Sheila's patiently. Good meeting, and I just want to say I agree with what I said, you know, I. I was brought up by both parents, brought up by a very strong independent mother, and she's brought myself, my sister and my brother up to be strong, independent people.


So I'm in a fortunate position where I am self-reliant financially. And, you know, obviously I have a family if I need the emotional support. But I have a question, really. You know, I've I've said this to my partner before, you know, and I've spoken to other friends, female friends, who are also strong, independent women with good careers and financially support themselves. So to move away from the idea of traditionally where you had to find a husband to support you, we're not in that position.


We've gone way past that. So my question is, I've often said to we've often said, you know, we don't need a man. You know, if a strong independent woman is in a relationship with a man, it's because she wants to be in that relationship. And we feel that wanting to be with that man rather than needing to be with that man was actually in a stronger position for the man. How do you how do the guys feel about that?


Do you feel unappreciated or you know, when we say that we're not saying we don't when we say we don't need we don't need a man to support us in the sense of financially and be with, you know, for us to become their dependents. But does that come across differently from the man's point of view? From from my perspective, because I think we will understand and then I Robinson's debate and you will understand that there has been a very male dominated by all of these things organically happening probably from the from the bottom up.


So I suppose it's fine for women to get together and support each other. That's cool. And in some respects sometimes. I think that saying it is cold, but sometimes you do find people who do try to pigeonhole you. And I think that doesn't mean you're not strong. A strong woman doesn't stand as an independent woman, doesn't scare me. So. But there is there is a sort of movement where there are there are quite a lot of people.


It does sound, but they're actually kind of hakman and they do put man down quite a lot as well. And I think that that I find that a bit tough sometimes think. OK. And Errol, did you before you go, did you want to respond or is your response in the chat box sufficient? Let me I just want to go on the only because my my son was going for my attention, so. Yes, to respond to Sheila, I think.


I think there's a lot to be gained from a relationship with a strong person, because you can build on that quite easily. There are and I don't know if I'm right in saying this, but if both parties are good, strong personalities, then I think what you find is that there are less weaknesses in the relationship that are. Less fractures in the foundations. If I can put it that way, I think sometimes men get and this might be psychological or social conditioning, but sometimes I think men get afraid or intimidated by strong willed women.


I've been lucky enough to be a manager for many years, and I have to say some of the best workers I had were strong willed women who could really get the job done, hard working, and they didn't take rubbish. You know, they don't suffer fools gladly. And it's really good that they were like that. But I suppose I never felt intimidated by that. And one thing I have noticed is that when you have a strong willed woman, she is not going to be a walkover.


She's not going to play the pretty lady in the corner to you at all. But you know what? You're going to get a heck of a lot more out of. Staying in the course, communicating with respect, because she'll probably get a lot more respect from me and hopefully I will get her respect back and effectively because she's a strong willed and I'm guessing that also equals intelligence, that we will do a lot more in life together, a lot more productive and more fulfilled because of that.


Rather, because otherwise, what are you looking for, a cleaner, a slave? A yes man. I mean, you know, if you are not looking for a partner in life, then, yeah, fine.


Go for somebody who has a character or who's got a broken character that you can dominate. But if you are looking for a true partner, then you shouldn't be afraid of her intelligence or her strong willed character that she debates, that she says, actually, I don't agree with you on that one. And she wants to, you know, discuss it. I'm not saying argue it nose to nose, but, you know, sit down and discuss it like grown up adults, trade ideas.


I think that's that's that's a brilliant thing. But it doesn't mean you have to be a grown up that you can't have your male ego getting in the way. That's my opinion. Thank you. Right. I have to go sorry, guys. OK, we're going to be here thinking up your name by you. Well, you go. Oh, good, OK, very good night on all of you.


Canaro, before we go see another strong willed woman, Palmira Ali. You had your hand up. Were you? Did you still want to talk or have you? I think I will covered the point which I wanted to convey, because, like growing up, uh, with a single woman, like my mother, like we had like three kids and she was a wonderful woman who took care of all the so. Oh, so the woman who was independent and who is strong doesn't, like, really frighten me.


So rather I get so much inspiration and so much respect for them. So I think it basically boils down to childhood and how we perceive the power that later on on a day just like defines our character, how we react when when a woman is independent and when no one is a strong person. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I think I think it can be can be the case. It's. Yeah, I think it's security and. Childhood plays a lot into that.


OK, Sarah. As you know, I'm a strong willed woman. I think you've got that. But my point is this, that I am strong willed. I have my shit together. I have my money, I have my car thought is twenty six years old. I've got my own place, you know, I know who I am and what I want. But at the end of the day, I, I want to. Niedermann, there's no point in me having a man if I don't need him.


And I feel like the man that I love that I end up with as I've been single for five years, so for me to get into a relationship and to I want a long term commitment. I don't want to stay in friends with benefits. I want to be with somebody who brings the best in me. And I bring out the best in them spiritually, emotionally, physically, you name it. It's got to be the whole shebang. And that person has to be pretty damn special for me to even want to commit.


I want to spend my life with them because I'm quite happy as I am. I know who I am. I I don't I don't need a man to validate me to make I don't need them financially. I don't need them emotionally or spiritually. I've got that covered. But saying that for me to bring a man in, then he has to be all of those things. And that is what I need and that is what I want. Otherwise I don't want an assistant.


I don't want a personal personal assistant, you know. So for me to bring a man in, I understand and you can call it hierarchy, traditional people can call it what I want, but I understand the dynamics of a man and woman. And I could be wrong. But in my personal opinion, for me to bring a man in, I need to let him do his role as the man, which is to take the lead in a certain kind of way and to meet my needs in a certain way, because that is going to make him feel like a man.


And I want to feel like a woman. I believe that. If I'm too masculine and I'm too like, I don't need your money, I don't need your help. I don't need you. They don't need you or not, I'm not going to then make him feel like a man. And I feel like. You need to make the man feel like a man and the woman to feel like a woman. You're two different entities in this world and you're on your own journeys.


But at the end of the day, you've. You've got to make him feel like a man and he's got to make you feel like a woman for it to work, and I could be wrong. I could be wrong. But if I'm too masculine and I'm too like, I don't need you for anything, why is he there? What's he there for? What's his role? Well, just this. I've got pets. I've got a bird and a rat and a.


Why is he there? He's got to come to add something, he's got to come because I need him in some way, not that I need him because I don't need anybody on my own. But there's got he has got a role to fulfill and a need to make. And I've done some explaining that, well or not, I might be coming across as very old fashioned, I don't know. So please enlighten me. Well, those of you in your past relationships, where they.


No, they weren't. I was with a guy that. No, they weren't. I haven't had that ever. No, no. They fought for me and tried to defend my life, try to didn't appreciate me for who I was, didn't let me shine. So I need the man let me shine and let me be the center of attention and let me be who I am. But at the same time, I've got to be mindful of the fact that I am very strong and outgoing and I need to let him fit.


I need to let him be the man. And in whatever way, that is why that is. But just the appreciation, because I will appreciate the man, but without trying to take over everything and micromanage everything, I don't want to do that. I want to be with somebody who actually gets it. I organize a lot of people, you know, and. I'm responsible for everybody's welfare because I'm a carer. I'll look after people, but I'm also an energy healer, so I've lived a lot in my life and I want a man who gets it.


I don't want to be the one planning everything. I want to let him plan things and let him be in control whilst letting me shine, ok?


OK, there's two hands up, Janice, I'd imagine. I'm not sure he was first here. We got rid of emissions unmuted so we'll go first.


Sir, I wondered why you needed a man to feel like a woman and and also by consent. So I can sense from here that you've got quite a big bira. No, no, no, I don't need them, I am a woman, I'm all woman, and I know that I'm a woman. Trust me, I don't need a man to feel like a woman. What I'm saying is that I don't agree with the fact I don't need a man.


I don't need anybody. I am really my own shining bright star. I'm okay. But for me to get with a man and to have a relationship. I want him to feel like I need him. I don't what is the point in me getting with a man, if he's going to feel like he's my personal assistant, like he's my it like he's my my butler. I might as well go get a submissive. Or Slive said, So can I, you can't stand what you're saying and correct me if I'm wrong.


So you're saying like me, you are strong and self-reliant. You can do everything yourself. But I you know, you sometimes you're always the one that's taking charge and looking after the people. You want a guy to actually sometimes take charge and look after you. And, you know, I want a man who could fill that role. Was he going to be in love with them? Like, keep care of you? Yeah, yeah. I'm right to work.


I don't work unless I'm with a submissive man or a slave. I don't think a man is going to want to be with me in a long term relationship if he feels that I'm outliving him all the time.


Yeah, I understand what you're saying. Yes. But you need to be strong enough to let go for him. Yes.


Let him be a man. Yeah. Yeah, that's all I mean. Yeah, I hear you, yeah. OK, and Janice, you've been waiting patiently. OK, it's going to be it's going to be it is a bit out for me to say, and I'm not sure I'm going to sign a settlement. Right, but I'm going to try, OK? I was like here. It's hard to believe if you look at me now, I was kind of like you, so I completely get what you're saying.


And I realized why some of the things now what you're saying is really thrown at me, because I was so so when I was younger, I was very much in control of all my own things. And then I literally got to the point where I thought, you know, I'm always the ones who think how I'm always the one doing everything good at it. Yeah, I get that and I really hear you. But then what I will say that put me in a really dangerous situation.


It is only now hearing you that I understand why I got into so much trouble and broke nose my back story. So it's probably going to get lost. I did. Is that what you're saying? And that put me in a really dangerous position. I was right to let that man let myself, like, needin. I had to make myself less listen and hands up everything that I thought. I mean, yeah, but I think everything I am that's not my power.


I'm not giving my power. Whatever you.


Same thing. Where you saying to make him feel needed. Yeah. But you need to know. I think that yeah.


I don't need the jobs around my house. I need him type stuff. I need him to make. I need him, I don't need him now. I think that's the perception in my power.


Why should I. It's perception and I recognize it because I've done the similar thing is that your perception is to be less certain to make him feel needed.


Oh, no, no, I'm not. I'm not I'm not less than I'm still my beautiful scheu playing.


They all need to me.


You need to make what I mean is. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. What I want him to know is as strong and as beautiful and as powerful as I am, that I still need him so that he doesn't feel less the main. But you see that playing out than Sarah. So how do you think you're going to make him feel needed? That's my question to you.


Without giving up anything, I'm going to let because I'm going to let him do things for me. Right. So that's why I I'm not going to say, oh, it's OK. I've got a pint on deck. I oh, it's OK. I can pay for this. I could do that. I'm Sarah. Sarah, you can have your say. But we need to be one at a time so that we're not talking. Janisse So we are trying to say is that so?


You know, I it's very, very difficult because I, I can see now in retrospect, where may maybe it is very hard to get this across because I can see that you've got your own viewpoint and it's a bit like, you know, everyone's got their own perception. You're standing you looking at it from a different viewpoint. I've gone I've gone from being at the top of my career, having control of everything, being able to do my own DIY.


My dad was a builder. You know, I can paint and decorate like I can't do plumbing now, so no one else need plumbing.


But anyway, um, so, you know, I was renovating a house when I met someone first and, you know, I was climbing my career rapidly.


I was really driven, really ambitious. And I have my own house at twenty three. Diagram straight off from the work we did on it, right? The person I was with at the time was totally, you know, I could see him getting less and less and less then, you know, and he was like, oh, I can't get married, you know, until I earn enough. He was clearly never going to earn enough. He was never going to.


Not by my judgment, by his judgment. So that ended. And then I was like, you know you know, the more confident and strong I'm getting, this is harder to find a man who actually likes a woman to be in that row. And I and I can see it now. I literally kind of thought either I need I need to find a really competent, strong man who can kind of be in that row to where I can meet him and let me know, which is what you're saying.


Right. I on mean massively and it's really hard to tell.


Woman One minute, Sarah, it backfired massively because what happened was I found what I thought was that really confident guy. But be really wary because what happened was it was it was so gradual, I didn't even really notice. So everything got took like a little bit of time, a little bit of time. Little bit time. Little bit of time. And it was done in such a subtle way because I thought it was me allowing him to be needed.


And so I didn't question things until it was way out of control. It was done like, yeah, it's really hard because you don't even see it happening. Yeah. So just be wary of that one thing, that thing, because he will appear. But it's not a very nice thing when it does come like that. It has to be, you know, saying you need me. I don't think that's a I don't think that's quite the right way to look it.


I thank you for that. I that makes sense. But yes, yes, it does need to be less than to be made to meet someone.


I know I there is we have a relationship need to be. We all need someone, most of us, and. But there is that. Yeah, like if you're bialy, but they start not losing yourself and the surge, I want to say this before I let you speak. If we're not here that you don't have to convince us. It's not who wins the debate, it's not who comes out and how much that you you are able to.


Show us your point of view is right, because this isn't going to be sorted out in debate. This is what happens in life and all of us have our blind spots. And the reality of what's going to happen is going to happen. And it's not that like you can have your your view of your point of view is better and it's going to prevail. But what people are doing here is trying to show we see different things like I'm wrong and I have blind spots and certain things they pass me that that I don't understand about relationships and the same for everyone.


That's just like seeing it from different perspectives, isn't it? Yeah. Yeah. So this isn't about this right or wrong. You play it your way, but it's about. This is where relationships are played out, so you don't need to convince us because I don't want to spend, you know, like the next 20 minutes talking about this. This is one part. So now if you want to respond briefly.


So very, very quickly, no, no, no, I understand because I'll be off giving my power away before, so I totally 100 percent understand where you're coming from. So my point, we're still trying to convince you. It's just basically maybe I'm I'm being misunderstood. What I'm trying to say is that for me to be with a partner, he has to be so much. I can't just be with the regular guy that goes down a pub that supports the football.


I'm so if that sounds shallow or for me, it has to be someone artistic, cultured, spiritual, it has to be so high, in my estimation, in everybody's I value that role. So people are going to take what I say, how they want to take it. So what I'm trying to say is this like, yes, I want the man to feel needed. It doesn't mean I'm going to give away who I am and what I'm about because I have a lot going for me.


I have a massive amount of money and I know that. And I'm not being arrogant. I just know that. What I'm trying to say is the man that I have a future long term commitment with will know I love him, respect him, need him, value him and want him in my life. And that is the only point that I was trying to make. But if I don't get that I'm cool as I am. I've got I've got all of that.


So I know whoever ends up with me is going to be very, very lucky. And for me for me to be with that man, yet I'm lucky we're both going to be lucky. It's a mutual thing what we both need, each of whom we both help and support and love and nurture, which it's not one sided. But he will know that in some way. I do need him. He's not listed on me. He's not my lackey.


He's not a real he's not my butler. I don't know if that comes across the way I want to say or not, but that's what I'm trying to say. OK, and I hope you'll both be very happy that we will find. Yeah.


I'm going on a date tomorrow, so wish me luck. It's like it's a dissolve, but there are. It's. Well, maybe you can report back with your happy ever all around the world. I'm very hopeful about this because we've got a good connection. So I'll keep you posted.


OK, good luck. Thank you.


As anyone else. Great, if you I know we're getting light, so we're in the late night crew here now. I think I think it's hard, isn't it? You know, it is it is all about having a good a good balance of things and and not overstep step the mark. So you're not too needy and also not on the step in the mark. So you're kind of showing me the person that you don't need them at all. It is it is all about balance.


And so that is definitely something to to consider. And I'm just trying to like think, you know, when I wake up tomorrow morning, what to figure out of. Of this this evening, they always do finish these sessions just as valuable. It is interesting and to hear other people's opinions on stuff and, you know, I think sometimes as human beings, we can be be drawn into rights and wrongs. And it shouldn't be about that because that can be one of the barriers to having a successful relationship in terms of, you know, I'm right and you're wrong.


So therefore you must be down to me or whatever.


And but, yeah, it's it's it's I think it's important to turn listen to what everybody else, what everybody else's opinions are and just take from each, every, each and every opinion something that we we think will benefit us in the future. And even if we had something that we don't agree with, then we can also listen to that and go, well, that's not something that I want in the relationship that I want to perform with, with this person that's going to come along.


And so, yeah, it's been an interesting even and thanks everybody for your time. And thanks to you, Robuchon. And thank you for for year to tonight and to all Americans, there's one thing I just want to say before, Sheila, is that I think we are on a safe journey, but there is also this. So we're on our own self journey. And this is what came up when when everyone was talking. We're on a journey, but we also are place in the pack is really important.


And so there is how we see ourselves, but there's also how others see us. And there is a sense of value, high value life value. There is that perception of people. And we do need to not devalue ourself and to show people that we have value for the pat. But we need to separate our own inherent value and then the value that we express to others, and I think you sort of touched on it in that if we.


Authentic, if we stroll, we know who we are and we're able to share who we are, then we inherently show that value socially. Sheila, thank you for your patience. Thank you. I just wanted to add thanks, Alan. Like you, I get a lot out of these sessions. And I think from that specific question I asked, I actually think my next step is actually to go back to. This guy I've been seeing off and on and, you know, and perhaps my communication has not been good, you know, my understanding of saying when I said, you know, I don't a strong, independent woman doesn't need a man if she's with a man or with a woman, she wants to be with them in that relationship.


I think I need to from what you guys said and from others, the girls said, well, I think I need to make sure he understands where I was coming from. And as you said, it's not to say I'm disrespecting him as a man because I'm honestly, really, really appreciate everything he's done and the support he's given me. And what I was trying to get at was that, you know, a strong, independent woman doesn't need a man to survive.


She can do that herself. If she's with a man or with a woman, she's there because she wants to be there. So I think my my take away from this is I want to ensure that he's understood what my message was, is. Thank you. I think the reality is none of us need a relationship. It's the perception that we need that we want a relationship that enhances our life. And it is sadly true that men are threatened by stronger women and more successful women, and there are a lot of men who can't cope with a woman who's more successful than they are and.


But when you're looking at who you want a long term relationship with, you're looking for someone who's secure and someone who can create their own rules of the game. And just because someone is more successful financially in their career and status wise, there's also qualities that you bring. And so I think what every relationship has to define is what is the contract we have? So all relationships have what I call an unconscious contract and meaning that I'm in this because I'm going to get this from you and I'm going to give you this.


But most of the time, that isn't spelled out. So if we make the contracts conscious that he knows what you want from him and how he can bring you value in the relationship and you and you equally, then you have an agreement and then you have a way of knowing what are the indicators that determine the successful relationship, if that makes sense. But don't you think also that you use the term contract, but there's also a contract with Self?


To be true to myself, to try to be the best that one can be, but also at the same time to be willing to compromise, but not to. But there are certain essential ingredients of one's self that one can't compromise on. But there are others that you should be for the sick because it's two individuals that are coming together and in order for them to overlap. But, you know, you don't want you're not trying to be one, but there is a certain amount of overlap.


There has to be some amount of compromise. And being willing to compromise those things does not necessarily make you any lesser of a beam of a person, but also. So for me, yes, the contract with the relationship, but also a contract with myself to want what's best for me to be able to grow as I am, but at the same time to be conscious of that. I also value the relationship as being a part of me.


That I need to also take care of it, because it is it is it's also contributing to making me a better person or a more a better person in the sense of fulfilling my, my, my my needs are ones, as you say, because in a sense, they're they're they're there once because we don't actually need this some of these things that we think we need, which I wholeheartedly agree with.


But I think also that this notion of what a strong woman is, we have to be careful that we don't put it into a stereotype as well, you know, because there is that there is a notion of what a strong a strong woman is based on, I suppose, the caricatures, but nonetheless.


I think everybody's version of what is what is a strength and what goes to making up a strong woman very to a certain degree, but we as women also need to not buy into that to the point where it becomes it makes us. Caricatures of ourselves. You know what I mean, playing, playing, this is like we assume a role and we play it to the max. Yeah, and that that in itself brings pressures to the relationship, and that in itself is dangerous and and well, I have the floor.


Please let me just say I'm sorry for that outburst earlier on. But as you can see, I'm a very passionate person.


And when things go wrong, Rob is laughing already.


When things are not right, I'm going to say that I cannot help myself, me, if you must, but I will. I'm sorry, but I really I love men too much. And I really cannot tolerate hearing men be denigrated for no reason at all whatsoever. So please forgive me for my passionate display.


The thought of a bitter battle, I think. I think part of being the group is the value of the group is the diversity. And sometimes I think there's people that come with a view that they want to portray. But I, I feel that as Paul, like part of the family or part of the group is that you have to you have to let those there has to be a bit of up and down in order to to get to want to work in is.


But I think ultimately it comes down to like respecting you are entitled to have different opinions. There's just one thing and I so imagine I'm going to get you in next, but there's just one thing I just want to pick up on. So I don't believe when I talk about the contract, I don't believe in the compromise. So I took last time I said I've got my views of I think first you have to have like the spiritual view. Where are you in the big picture of.


Like whatever view of meaning of the universe, the next one is the contract with yourself and then the contract with the other, but it needs to be that the person. I think the determinant of a relationship is can you be yourself and you have something to give them the Canadian themselves and they have something to get to them. And what we're doing in dating, in building a relationship is finding out, can I be myself and still have value and enhance your life?


Can you be yourself and have value? And then I think it should be like if we if we don't if we don't have that overlap, if we're not if we're going to detract and someone has to pretend and play a role, then we that's not the relationship that's going to work, actually, actually.


Rob, when I said can't compromise, when I was using compromise, maybe I needed another word. It's really not a compromise in terms of either suppressing a characteristic of yourself in order to mess with somebody else. It's more of a transactional type of compromise like me, practical decision making wherein you have to agree, negotiate and agree. It's almost like, OK, I need to live in this city, for example, and I need to live in that one.


How do we that's the kind of compromise I'm talking about, not about characteristics about yourself.


Yeah, OK. Sorry, Megyn, thank you for waiting patiently. Sorry. OK, so I put myself in the category of being a strong woman because I'm OK with being vulnerable and I'm very open and I'm very open about how passionate I am as well. So I think in that sense, I'm a strong woman. But unfortunately, I think it does intimidate some men and the very men that I would probably want to have a relationship with. And I think I found that.


I think it can attract very egotistical men if you're a strong woman, and that could end up being quite an unhealthy relationship. And that might not give you the more they will make you think this.


There's love there when really it's I don't know how to describe it, it's a bit like now sex.


And. Yeah, I'm going to say it. I'm sorry, can I just add to something Sandra said about the definition of a strong, independent woman, and I think I understand I something as a growing up as a teenager and all it said to me, you know, you can't be too strong because if a strong woman was a strong man will always clash. And I got that. And I think from you know, I see myself as a strong, independent woman.


But I also know that as a strong woman, I have to be strong enough to know when to ask for help and ask for help. And I think sometimes that takes a strong woman to do that. It's, you know, being a strong woman doesn't mean that I'm invincible and I can do everything on my own. I know when I need help, but I need to be strong enough to ask for it. You know, I think it's it's important.


There is strength in vulnerability. And just being able to communicate clearly. You know, what do I need and isn't a weakness to need something?


Yeah, so I think going to the point that this auntie had said, you know, as a strong woman, you can't have a good relationship, you can't have a strong relationship with a strong man. I think you can, but I think both sides have to. No, to have that respect for each other and and stop and listen. There is not is not a case of someone being a winner and someone being a loser. You know, you need that compromise.


Yeah, it's about the ability to resolve difference, the respect and the trust to let each other. Understand each other. That the the view, like the whole point of this, is that we have lots of different views so that somewhere we're going to come out with a better a better view. You know, like I you know, I could do a lot of people do their webinar and say this is this is the gospel. But it wouldn't be it wouldn't be as good as having, you know, people with different views to show my blindspots.


And the same worrying couple that. Both of you have more wisdom than one of the. And I think every relationship is unique, so everyone writes the rules for their own, and so I think we do get people will relate based on their experience, but it's not. That you can't have a relationship, it's who do you need to have that relationship with and I think strong is one one.


Convention is so many damage to people. Oh, you just said something which is interesting in that you you hone your your instincts and your gifts and your, you know, everything according to the relationship that you are in this at a given time, it becomes part of your experience portfolio. And in some respects, if you're not careful your next relationship, you may want it to be a carbon copy, bringing in the same. Treats and everything, habits that you developed in the in the last relationship, so the kind of rhythms that existed in that relationship, the kind of cues that you developed as partners, you're expecting to to have this that same dynamic develop in the next relationship.


Ignoring the other person has a different set of skills and different sets of experiences, different reactions, different everything, you know, is different. And yes, some things may become over time familiar or seeming like like what you had. But that expectation that you are who you are and the adjustment is not going to be to meet the other person, the other person having to conform to you, because that's your comfort level. It's almost like somebody, you know, having an idea of of his perfect mate and then every mate after that.


Uzelac has a similar look. I found that with my husband and OK, I am Frank, OK? He likes blonde girls with long hair, OK? So was his girlfriend before me, girl, long hair girlfriend before that brown hair, brown girl with long hair. OK, and so it's a pattern. So I know that if I see somebody like that around it, I knew that he could like her, you know, because there's that pattern is established.


And I know that that's that's, that's what he goes for is like a man who likes blondes, are one who likes brunettes. You know, it's the same kind of thing.


But nonetheless, do you there's the other side of that. Do you try to conform to these preconceived ideas that this person is throwing at you, you know, and sometimes in some very oblique ways, why don't you do it this way and you should, you know, and the suggestions and sometimes it takes a while to before you realize that, hey, they're trying to make me into an image of somebody. That they probably had a relationship in the past that they have very fond memories of, and that in itself can make you feel very inadequate.


And also cheated on because you are being made to be what you are not and not appreciated for who you are.


I don't want it to just not I want you to tell me something different. Yeah, no, I was just I was just thinking we need we need a name for you as well.


So I think what's really.


It's the idea that someone is fixed. Honourees. If you've we've probably all gone into certain jobs, certain environments, and we've really struggled and we've really been our worst and then we've been somewhere else, we've certain people, certain roles, and we've really thrived. And it's the same in relationships that you could have the relationship with the same person. And yet it's kind of like you're that like you and someone else could have the same relationship with someone else, with the same person.


And yet you would see an entirely different side of that person because the climate of the relationship is going to bring out different aspects of them. It's going to make them show up differently and the parts of them are going to make you show up differently. So there is that's why every relationship is unique, because although you might be having a relationship with someone and they may even have some of the similar traits.


We I think we look at people and we see the tip of the iceberg and we say that we know that person based on what we've say to them. Now, when you look at Facebook, Facebook has 400000 separate data points on each person. That's how they can bring advertising. That's, you know, like the Black wrote sapiens, Yaro Novela or whatever. But he he it was artificial intelligence that told him he was gay before he knew. That there is there was some company, there's a bit of a scandal, but she had.


Adverse. About her being pregnant. Before she knew and I didn't know the light from some tests, but they knew from the data points that the data analysis is so good that they can tell you things like that's how you can get adverts to you. So targeted that you like just because they're able with artificial intelligence, they able to add all those data points and so. There is so much more to someone than being strong, being high value, being this, being that there's all these different dimensions that are going off.


And to take intelligent, handsome, any of those things is just a gross simplification of a human being and a you best thing to get in this quibbling that the other statistician as well.


And you're talking about the data points. It's a bit like when you say when you say, I think a thought of someone and you run something and you Boultbee, you think of people all the time and they don't bring you, but you always remember the time when they really. So I'm just saying with that, in some respects it isn't necessarily the clever advertising. Facebook identifies with his brother in the privacy of their own, basically. So maybe if she was looking for someone who's pregnant or something, or maybe it's just the type of stuff that I just try that.


So it's not the time. And I suppose it's just the collections that I didn't want to detract from your point, but basically. Yeah, no, no.


But it was basically my understanding of it is like they map out all the people who do they saw the people of that age demographic and yes, some of the people that they will send and they want to be pregnant, but then shared so many of the characters IT personality to who said the 16 step groups.


That was amazing. May I have to say, and I don't normally like personality types, and that's obviously an old fashioned thing. That's not Facebook. But when I read it, I was just like, whoa, really? And I've done those sorts of things before, but I'm just it's a bit like the old fortuneteller. They just sort of like when you see her in action or something. So picks up and he waits for someone to make the connection and then he's in there and it's our best not exist quite like that.


But that one was really quite perceptive in the wild. I haven't seen one before. And that's kind of the that's newest stuff, isn't it?


That's why I was actually doing something originally dates from how is coming out.


Yeah, I'm a fan of it. Actually said.


Hey, what are you. I was I was an advocate, actually. Really? Yeah, it was when I read it, I was like, well, it really actually made me understand myself in a way that I haven't.


Which which which combination of letters is that? I don't know. I think I may be introverted, so look out over Univision and I and I pay so a mediator already.


Oh, you're really close to me then, because I'm Anniyan t.P. I'm a diplomat.


God bless Hawaii. I'm intrigued.


I didn't get this scrub any chance of sending it to me ever.


And suddenly, no, I had to laugh because the examples that they gave were Barack Obama and Oprah Winfrey.


Arabsat no doo doo doo doo doo doo doo.


Would he take so long to make his an absolute passionate said he's so cool. I said no, this is work anyway. I'm a diplomat so I'll try to be a diplomat by working with this or that.


OK, yeah, we've got a nine a.m. or you could I think there's another term for Lion, which is apparently a dreama. They were in a bit of an idealist. Oh, come across media.


Yes, yes, this is funny, I can't remember my letters, but it was I just said, oh, OK, if that's mean, well, so be it. I will I will take it and I will try to act on it. So when I'm being intemperate and really being he will remind me that I'm a diplomat.


Yeah, I think. I think.


It's had some quite large criticism for its statistical and scientific basis, but I think it's a good starting point. And you can look at it's true. It's not true. I like my heart breaks for me, it feels like the one most descriptive.


OK, here's what mine says. It says extraverted, true, intuitive, nessma energy. I am feeling. Yes, I, as you can tell, emotional. I'm judging an assertive.


Yeah. It's not it's true. Yeah, I think what's good about them is whichever one you are. It shows you the value in it. Whereas I think when when we have, like, these things of some people are good, some people are. People, you know, like if you go by intelligence to people who are intelligent and some people feel less if you go by status and money, some people feel they're winning and it's not it's really like we're going back to them for the game is about how can you be better?


How can your life be better? And I think that that is really what everything else is in service to. This is going back to when I was complaining about U.S. commodities. Isn't that, yeah. Commodity everything in this country is so commodified that they just value and everything that they basically. Yeah.


And see, the thing is that. Why I think that's really important is. That when you look so for a career, people will spend, you know, doctors who spend nine years training for a career, who has spent nine years, like, for me, love is equal value of like money or physical survival or success or whatever. And yet no one spends anywhere near the same time. And so people put it on a sacred can't be debated, can't be questions like what's the status?


And yet, yeah, that's it. And yet they don't their actions and their values don't equate to that. It's like give what lip service to it, but don't actually live up to it.


But part of that I think has to do with education. You're expected to work. You know that. You're going to have to work at it. You have to pass exams. You have to stick at it. You have to do better. You have to really work at it, work to get ahead in your career. You have to work at it in the bin. Right. So it's effort, but romance and relationships come with a glowing, airy fairy expectation at the beginning, which doesn't have a work tag attached to it.


So the expectation of work is not. They're at the forefront. It's when you get into it that you realize, hang on, to maintain this thing, it's hard work and many of us are not equipped to do the hard work. Especially you have had very little good examples in my life.


I learned the lesson the hard way. So like you said, Sandra, you know, I was brought up to and I'm Chinese. My ethnic background is Chinese and our whole culture. And the way I was brought up is that you you get a good education and you build a career and you can financially or sounding a stable and you build a good future for yourself. And that's what I did. And up until 2006, you know, I had a good career.


I guess I still do it redundant. So I don't know. But, you know, I'm in a good place. But in 2016, I realize as friends were getting married and starting families and my social circle was getting smaller and smaller, I'd spent so much time concentrating on my career that I realized how lonely I was, you know? And I realized at that point that like a career, you have to work at having a good social life.


It doesn't just come to you. And there's an art to having friendships and relationships that they think improve with effort and time. Now they're out of practice. Then it's like you're starting from the beginning, I find, because I find that there's some people that you you deal with and it's organic and the friendship flows. And with others, there's a process that takes more time and it will come good.


But you have to put in the effort.


Both sides do. It's just like it's just like, you know, a romantic relationship. You can't take things for granted in life. But nobody tells us that that's the point. You go to school and they tell you, you get the religious studies, you get the history, you get all the rest of it. But there's nothing that really and you'll get the sex education. But it's not some boys, it's the mechanics.


But it's not about the emotional bits that go together to glue and make a relationship work and the dynamics, the ebb and flow of relationships, you know, between partners, etc., and also the impact of children coming into a relationship, the impact of caring for an idea out here on.


I'm not particularly religious or spiritual of anything else, but I went to a Church of England school and you talked about relationships. Do you think that church attending church was supposed to be where you got your education about? Building a working relationship should have come from. I don't know if you've come from there, I don't know. What do you think? I think that some of the preconceived notions that we have about relationships stem from our religious teachings, especially if your parents were religious.


You know, I could be wrong. But for me, certainly, yes, the Bible and, you know, I remember once my mother said to me, remember, the man is the head of the household and you must do this. You have to listen to him because he's the head of the home.


I mean, I would not think it's true to say that in terms of that. I mean, it's not where it should have come from. Maybe theoretically, I suppose it should come from your parents or that it's not a good thing to probably do. This is probably the last thing you want to talk about. As you probably know, if you're lucky enough to have brothers and sisters, you might get it from them or your friends because you call that sort of as you get around, you might have anything that you need, maybe even into your 20s, and then you sort of get a bit better if you keep them.


But I certainly think that religion and religion does that set of social roles. And I'm a believer I mean, I always a Catholic, I was raised Catholic, but I'm not more. But I can certainly say that. There's been a very large anti religious movement in this country, and that's fine, but I don't think they've necessarily got anything to replace a social welfare system that gives the social rules. Absolutely, and you could I mean, this is one of my pet subjects.


I mean, if you actually think about the power, something obviously the power of the police or the courts that comes from the king or the queen and that comes from God. So your natural legitimacy of power also flows all the way. So but what they've done here is they've completely said, right. Religion's rubbish to get. However, they don't, but I mean, they're trying to make people like Wayne Rooney, you know, like some sort of when the kids need to look up to and you can't buy Wayne Rooney, someone that kids are going to look up like they just didn't have anything to replace it with.


And I think it's closer to home, though, is the if you are fortunate enough to have two parents at home, the way they treated each other, that was that was the lesson really, to be in a home and see whether your parents had a respectful relationship, how they interacted that you that you learned it was there. It was you know, it seeped into your subconscious. And that was a valuable lesson on. And and. But if you were in a dysfunctional home, then you also learned those lessons, so I.


I think the narrative is all important, and I think we learn I think when you ask people, there's very few that have seen a relationship that they would really like to emulate. And I think when you look at statistics, you know, like this 55 percent divorce rate, people under 30 in a relationship, not 99 percent of the so-called fail as in the last. I don't think culturally we know how to do relationships. And I think the reason for that is because society and when we look at society, society has two main pillars, is religion and government.


And both like like you say, the basis, particularly from our society, comes the idea is given from God that God didn't say right. And. I think that although like you like, if you're religious, then you're entitled to your views, but I don't think I think there is also a way of shutting down debate. If you make something sacred, you make it important, you make it unquestioned. And this is why we have like the royal family has these processions so that no one can really question it.


And in the same way religion has become, you know, you can't question religion because that offends someone's beliefs.


But when we look religion, Christianity came from Christ. Christ never saw the church. Buddhism came from Buddha who never set up a church. And if you read the sermon on the Sermon on the Mount, the church is actually based on exact principles that Jesus said don't do. And it was based on the society that was there to paganism. It's the same pagan diet and then those dates with the Christian theology and Christianity. The power from that, and we know that the corruption in the Middle Ages, where they were selling indulgences and and so the narrative of religion has become.


Distorted and to fit the social environment and so that you had the Crusades and all of these things that got their power from the papacy and so they, you know, like missionaries and going to other countries was like the Americas was at the root. It was blessed by the pope so that it was legitimate. And so what you're looking at is the church supports the government and the government supports the church. And so the interests are entwined. And so you've got all of these ideas of what is like what a relationship is.


Basically, the religion is is enmeshed with what's right for the society. And so what's right for the society is the message that's come down. That's what's been because the government and the church are in control of the books that are written. They're in control of the messages that are sent. They have the means of of communication. So we've had and this is what I'm talking about, it being a currency, we've had millennia where the focus has been on the good of the society and the individual happiness is down to you.


And so we don't have a body of knowledge. You know, psychology is 150 years old. I don't think is even that. I think it's 140, 120. We don't have any body of knowledge telling us what we should do. And when you say you made a really good point there, and it's the point that Joseph Campbell made for decades, that the mythology of a society should be based on the technology of the society.


And we and what you said, we have a mythology that is 2000 based on technology that 2000 years ago. Yeah.


And we need to make the narrative that it takes so long to make those points in five years to bring them into that. Though, at the time that comes out, it's already at that. Yes. Yeah.


And so we need a mythology, which means we need a narrative that fits with the science of our time. And you can't look to government to do this because government isn't is political. And so the government doesn't work on what's best because they don't. You've got an education minister who isn't qualified to teach a class. You've got a health minister who couldn't practice health. So it's political, it's ideology. It's about popularity. It's about and it's the problem of democracy is that democracy is always going to go to the sun reader who can, you know, like Trump, go in because you're the simplest campaign.


Boris Johnson got in because nobody misunderstood him. Whereas if you have someone who is more nuanced and more complicated, people misunderstand him and they just get ridiculed.


So governments operate on cycles, short term cycles, which do not allow anything at that time to embed itself. No new concepts can be embedded in five year cycles when you want to change people's behavior and all that in this country.


We've had 10 years and then it was in before that. Before that it was about AIDS.


So, yeah, but generally, if you know what I mean. Because elections, what they are doing is it's a five year, four year thing. But you're absolutely correct that the way things are moving now and the way the body of knowledge on most things is increasing daily, it is very hard to keep up. And we are yes, we are not evolving in tandem with the body of knowledge that is emerging. But nonetheless, we have structures that tend to want to keep us firmly in our places.


Yes, yeah, I think it is true to say that religion, it's probably the fault of organized religion organized that the patriarchy arose, I think because Rob says even before the printing press, that was about the only time that they were sold unless it was a proclamation from the king or something. So definitely there because obviously there are various things about the Gnostic gospels and Mary Magdalene and they see babies. And so I'm aware of these other opinions. And it's quite possible, having seen the way the church operates in those places, we have to get married in the Middle Ages and they get rid of that.


They say, I mean, you know, there's no reason. It's kind of a natural. But it's funny because, I mean, I'm thinking this is I'm saying and it's probably not a good thing to say for a personal relationship, but if you actually back to what you were saying, Rob, about, you know, like no one can say or not, many people can see a relationship that they can have. And to approximate I mean, politically speaking, I'm not sure you can actually argue that humans actually mate for life.


To be perfectly honest, we know that certain animals do not see horses and stuff, but there are some bad human beings probably died. And the idea of actually talking about the idea of mating for life, these kind of marriage isn't that which actually arose from religion. Logically speaking, Janette's doesn't actually make sense. So much is really that construct that produces that idea by the sea side where religion's a lot of rubbish. So. Of the animal kingdom in the animal kingdom, though, the notion of mating for life takes on penguins, whatever, if you if you look at their behavior, you'll see that there is a behavior of of of rituals that enhance and maintain that bond.


It's just like when the apes, the grooming those things for us, what do we do to maintain our relationships?


What's what's the equivalent for us intelligence wise? I mean, we're just this is just a mutation. And this is saying, what is it?


What is it that that we do?


It is the whole thing of that work in work, keep on working and trying to build rituals to evolve, because that's what it is. If you think that they just meet come together and they just and they're together, they go through these rituals, you see them with their pattern dancing, they're whatever. They're plucking their thing and preening in and what have you and so forth. So obviously there are hormones that are probably be next that do the bonding, that help with the long.


And it's for us. But what I struggle to figure out what those rituals are that. That will be the bond that will cement us together. I will only say, like so much that it's about the men and the women, isn't it, in their chests and said, I'm the biggest, strongest man in the chest. They say there's no women's lib in the earth.


I mean, some of the women are quite well, OK, bonobo monkeys, they are very sociable and ready for any interaction so that the group is cohesive. They they meet in a split second. That's that's their connection. And it's part and parcel of this society. So it keeps them from not fighting. It keeps them as a cohesive group. And they they they get along and that is their contact.


And obviously the hormones that get are those that keep them as a as a as a as a group that's not each other apart.


So I think we I don't think we're necessarily biologically. Primed to somebody, I think the reality is we don't know. Helen, Helen Fisher talks about there being a romantic drive as well as a sex drive. But I think. If you look at different cultures. The relationship, like a patriarchy or matriarchy or whatever society they have, is based on the practicality of the society. So there are societies where there is free love and there's one where when a woman is pregnant, I believe that all, like everyone that a woman has sex with during the time she's pregnant, they'll integrate some of the characteristics.


So they will when they know they're pregnant, they'll go to sleep with a man who's most intelligent, man is most charming, man is just so their children has all those qualities. So I think if you look at all the different societies, there is every type of relationship. That's where it's usually where women have multiple husbands.


There's where in relationships up in there. Is it? Yeah, it's like pulling Polynesia or somewhere like that. So there is every type. I don't think it's necessarily that there is one type and I think maybe it's the fact that we have so much narrative that goes beyond our instincts. But I think it's an interesting question and it's going to lead us through our next one of next week, which is I can't remember what a title is basically about what is the ideal relationship.


And I think that's that is something we need to establish for ourselves. Like to take that journey.


Rob, before you go again, the context, there is a cultural context within which this is happening, just like what you mentioned before, because all of those different relationships and what they do, they are all built into the culture that they're part and parcel of the culture, the cultural norms. So we are looking at this in this cultural context within which we find ourselves or but at the same time, many of us come from different cultures and we are all here.


So I think that that in itself is interesting because people are coming together across cultures with different expectations and different understandings of what makes a good relationship. And that in itself is interesting. Dynamic, I think.


Oh, yeah. Yeah. I think that's one of the most. Biggest drivers like globalization, one of the most positive things of that is that we are learning and assimilating. I think we are having a lot of teething problems at the moment with with overcoming the prejudices and fears. But yet, as we break those barriers, I think we start to understand how limited we are from our own cultural blind spots so that we can transcend them. And when we can try and send them, we transcend our mistakes and we can.


Well, I don't think so many people realize how defined and how conditioned we think that we feel that we need to do this and do this and. As we become aware of of that condition, we're able to be more conscious and we can override it and can be more ourselves than we were than we otherwise would have been.


It should be an interesting show because, as I said, I'm amongst Chinese, Chinese, I'm called well, I'm commonly known as BBC, so I'm British born Chinese. So I have an Eastern culture background, but a Western mindset. And I, I believe I can integrated the both cultures quite well. But I've never been attracted to Chinese guys because this is perhaps a stereotypical thing. My parents, both Chinese want from Hong Kong and from Malaysia, came over in the early 60s and I was told growing up that I have to marry Chinese until it was a point that as we get older.


So I. You're talking about making mistakes when you're teenager? Well, I have very, very strict mother. I was told we were allowed to have boyfriend girlfriends until I went to university, and then that didn't happen. So anyway, I as we got older, both my I have two siblings. We were all told not to marry Chinese. And as we got older, it probably into our early teens or early twenties, it became OK, they can be Oriental.


And then as we got older, mid twenties, it was a case. Well, you know, so long as they're good, they come from a good family, you know. And as we got older, we couldn't give them grandchildren. It became even, you know, and it was to a point where I had so many friends.


Our parents knew each other and had two daughters. And the younger daughter, who was probably a couple of years younger than me, she married an English guy. And I actually said to her, thank you so much, because you've now set the precedent. My sister is actually married to an English guy as well. You know, she set the precedent. She put that thought into our parents minds that it was acceptable. But overcoming that culture barrier, even within your own family, was.


So it should be an interesting talk, but it should be said as part of that.


Thanks. Thanks for sharing that with us. Hopefully we get to hear more about how you've. Like in integrating both cultures, you must see like different levels of pitfalls and I see the good and bad in both.


I think it's it's I think it's it's.


It's easy to stereotype cultures, but I think you have to look at individuals because individuals have different experiences from whatever culture they're from, and that could be somebody who is British, who was born and grew up in Southeast Asia or the other way around, or could be they were born here and moved out there. Different cultures, different backgrounds produce different people. We're a product of our environments and experiences. Well said, I wish I could say that that's a perfect night to leave it on where we're going to need to not have a name for you as well.


We'll probably talk too much. Now, you've added you've added some great insights. So, yes.


Thank you, everyone, for sharing and for making the call that we had actually all next week.


Thank you. Have a good week.