Award-winning author Professor Nate Holder plays multiple instruments and regularly tours but why does he think it's important to decolonise and change the way we learn about music?

Hi, I'm Dhruti Shah, and this is my podcast Have you Thought About, I'm a writer, journalist and poet, and I love to find out about what passions people chase after in life, especially if then blending together skills in unusual ways. In each edition, I'm going to chat with someone I find particularly interesting. And someone who's managed to put things together in their life or

Like a lot of kids, got into music through our parents in different ways, right. So it was hearing music around, I grew up in church. So that experience of listening to music and being involved in music, you know, singing along, you know, actions to some songs, and that kind of thing. Music was just part of what we did all the time. But I think a lot of us at young ages were into

But it's not just about someone listening to music, you've gone and made it into a pretty big part of your world, you are a professional musician, you do try and encourage others to find fascination in music as well. So how did you take that passion, and really immerse yourself in it?

I'm not gonna lie. I know, when you're like 14/15, and everyone's starting to talk about applying to universities, these choices are going to actually shape a lot of your life potentially. And so you've got to think long and hard about the choices you're gonna make. At that point in my life, I didn't really have any passions outside of music, I can't even say was

figuring out different ways to share and to help people have positive experiences of learning an instrument.

How many instruments do you play?

I play the piano, I play saxophone, I play clarinet. When I say play, I mean to varying degrees to varying levels, but especially the piano and in the saxophone of the instruments that I play the most; picking up the flute bit by bit as well.

Clarinet, why is it set aside so compared to the saxophone, and now you've got the flute. I mean, I say that because I'm someone who's actually rather naughty, in that, you know, I played the clarinet up until I was 14. And then I really actually regret this, but it was starting to mess with my art lessons at school. So being taken out of one lesson to do another lesson, I actually

The clarinet part of it is really interesting because I wasn't allowed to give up on that even though I wanted to at different points because my parents really said to me that I could hear the piano which like you I kind of regret now even though I picked up back up later. It there's this thing around being young and either thing Things are crashing. And I wrote a book about this.

always learn and to grow, but there's a pressure that comes with that, that isn't healthy, and they're in different ways. You know, so and then that translates education, where, yes, there's so much to learn. But some of the problems of education is that telling children that they have to learn things in a particular way. And if they don't, they don't go to the next level. Like literally, you

You also focus on the fact that music is for everybody. But it also comes from everybody. And it comes from different heritage, it comes from different places. And actually, we don't focus on that enough. And bearing that in mind. What are you doing to change things? And as part of the answer, I'd love to hear when it's tough. How do you keep going?

Oh, well, I didn't try and change things as they tried to change things. Because I don't know how much I can change things by myself. We do talk a lot like just as humans, we talk a lot about things that we should change. But sometimes what can be lacking is actually doing it and then having the appropriate tools to help us to change. Right, part of what I've been doing is writing

I'm shameless.

You are and that's something I've learned. Probably haven't implemented that in the way. Maybe you should but you're amazing at that. And I've seen so many other people who do that. And no one's gonna do it for me if I don't do it myself. So yeah, you've got to push yourself, you've got to keep plugging yourself even if people get annoyed at you, or they want to block you or they're

I was gonna say they don't say that about the big brands which are regularly advertising or sharing, but when it's someone who's smaller trying to make an ame there is that element of oh, gosh, this is a bit embarrassing, I feel it, I always feel it. But if we don't take ownership of our own stories, or what we're creating, as you say, who else will?

Absolutely, when it gets tough when thinking about, you know, does this work anymore, or, you know, are people listening anymore? It's important to find those networks of people. And I'm learning to do that. As creatives, I think, we can be very isolated from the world, and we see the world through Twitter, we see the world through Facebook, if we're not going out, and, you know,

On one hand, maybe people think you've got a glamorous life, you're out touring, you've hung out with celebrities, you know, you've got the music. But that's all hard work. It doesn't just come willy nilly in terms of oh, yeah, there's Nate, we're just like getting on straightaway. You really have to build those relationships. And it's not always glamorous, is it at all?

No, it's not, it's not. That's not to say it's all bad either, right? Like, in different ways, funnily enough, for some people is glamorous, but you do it often enough -and it's, it's just what you do, right? It's just part of your job. And sometimes it's important to kind of step take that step back into recognise it for what it is, and be and see the goodness and be grateful that

I thought about products, you know, as a creative for quite a while. And it's like, oh, no, this is what it's called, I thought it's just a story, or I thought it was just things thinking out of my brain. But no, these are, these are products. And as you say, it does take time to pull things together. But beyond the music, what else makes Nate, Nate?

It's a constantly evolving idea about who I am constantly evolving, you know, what it means to be a to have been a boyfriend, right? It's different to what it is to be a husband, you know, and then what it is to not have kids to have kids is different. You know what it is to, you know, I used to live in London. Now I don't that's different. And you know, there's so many things

next few years again. And then I'm a freelancer. Now, if I do end up having a full time job, that's going to shift, because the ideas of what it is to work, and when you work, and how you work, and how much time you can spend and just thinking financially and all this, it changes is constantly evolving. Yeah, ask me again in a few years time.

But that element of fatherhood, as you say, it does change who you are aware how you behave with you, it would be fascinating to again, to explore that element in terms of was it a quiet shift, or pretty big in terms of being like, okay, this is dadhood,

I'm expecting my first child in next few months, which is, isn't absolutely miracle that I've seen it happen before, right. But being involved in it is a totally different feeling and sensation, and my wife has a child. And so she is now mine, you know, and that change was way more kind of sudden. And so it's been a roller coaster of just understanding and seeing firsthand that

Congratulations. And yes, of course, I find children very confusing, amazing, but very confusing and very unpredictable. They do what they want to do. But it's interesting in terms of that book thing, because we're book buddies, as it were. And again, I don't think my book would have come to fruition had it not been for my niece and nephew literally saying, Have you tried this

Absolutely. And I think that the amazing thing about children is they don't they have no fear, in a sense, like they, you know, the things that will second guess, you know, in our minds, about third guessing fourth, and just keep going over and over is that well, have you done this? Why not? Obviously, you know, this is the, this is what you have to do. Now, if you're gonna want to,

I agree, although when they really are like, 'oh, whatever, like you're such a loser. You're like, Oh, great. I feel really old now. But thanks for that. Maybe, maybe that's just me, maybe I'm just a loser... no it's pure comedy. But I'd love to find out more in terms of you know, there's so many different aspects to who you are, to who we all are. We're all quite complex

I think one of the things that's kind of made it easier, I think, in some ways for me is that I'm working in an industry that doesn't have many of us, right. So in education, yes, there's a lot of black men, but in music, education, there's really not many at all. In some ways, it makes it easier, in some ways, it makes it more difficult, you know, you feel like a, you know, not

into a room saying, I'm not going to look at this person like this. But he might think I'm looking at him like this. So how am I going to mitigate that. And so sometimes, maybe there's instances where we're trying to dodge something that's either actually not even there, which affects how we interact with each other. I think it's really complicated. It's really complicated ideas, especially kind of

So a lot of it boils down to that open dialogue, and just being able to talk, what gives you hope?

Sometimes not a lot. To be honest, sometimes not a lot at all. We have reports coming out around we're recording this or two days ago, a report came out about institutional sexism and racism, homophobia in the in the Metropolitan Police. In the UK, just for anyone who's listening outside of outside of the UK, that doesn't give you very much hope, because this is stuff that Black

like struggling with you know, difficult concepts and allowing them to express themselves. It's about the secondary school kids who are 15 and being forced to decide in different ways, like the trajectory of their lives at 15. About what do you know, a 15. If it's about the kids in early years who are discovering who they are, and looking at the kids around them have been like, Oh, my skin is different from yours. And asking the questions, well, why, you know, that's where the hope comes from. Because hopefully, if we are able to create the right environments for these kids, they're

The amazing Nate Holder who brings together a love of music, writing children's books, and so much more. Do you have an interdisciplinary life because I would love to hear from you. And perhaps we can chat on this podcast that goes with my newsletter, which is called Have you thought about and can be found www.dhrutishah.com. Please join me next time for a fun conversation with