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Honest Talk About Heartbreak, Dating and Relationships - Rob McPhillips EPISODE 23, 29th September 2020
Treat Them Mean, Keep Them Keen! True or False? Part 1
00:00:00 02:23:37

Treat Them Mean, Keep Them Keen! True or False? Part 1

Some people such as 'The Rules' advise on following tactics designed to make you appear less attached and less interested.

Is this a valid strategy or does the inauthenticity affect relationships?

We discussed this topic and a wide range of other topics such as Poyamory and Monogamy.

Transcript

[00:00]

Welcome to honest talk about heartbreak, dating and relationships, relationships, the podcast helping you navigate your path to happy ever after with your host, Rob McPhillips. This question has had me having nightmares like that, it just it just reminded me of a certain scenario that I was thinking, this is why I don't believe it's true, why I believe it is false because of this scenario. And then I've been having nightmares about this scenario last night. Oh, gosh.

[00:38]

You want to tell us what the scenario is or is that it wasn't a slip in something major just a day in a situation where it was over a long period of time, it's probably over like two years.

[00:50]

I kept seeing the same guy on this this thing on the website and we never really talk to each other. And then we got talking somehow. I was like a bit not sure about him, but we got talking. It was really weird and taking ages to text back and all the rest of it. Days like three days, four days, sometimes the message box. So I just fizzle out and then didn't see him speak to him again for like another year or something and completely forgot about the other time and then would kind of arrange to meet or and then he'd just go sit at the last second and then he would not actually arrange to me it was just kind of like, do you want me?

[01:34]

OK, then again, about a year later, I started talking again on a different website and it seemed a lot more interested this time year. Getting to know me more and all that sort of stuff seemed interested. So I was like, OK, let me go on this time and arrange to baby. So I was about to leave and everything and he just didn't respond. So I just didn't just delete him off my phone and whatever and then left it.

[01:59]

But I think that was kind of one of them. Treat it means keep from keen. And I think he thought that that was going to keep me hooked in and I just like, fizzle out. And then he kept liking me on the thing as well afterwards because he most of premium's you can't rely on my account and like him, I just just left it, left it physically now because I'm not playing I'm not allowed to play games. But I think that was one of them scenarios I amines CAPM key.

[02:24]

I was just looking for some of them, and there's a four page open that's gone, but it was this one recommends you take four hours minimum to reply to a text. You only see them once a week for the first month and only, oh, this is is this advice to be able to treat someone mean to keep them interested.

[02:54]

Yeah. All right.

[02:56]

But what do you think? Do you think that works?

[03:02]

I think that it's getting more and more complicated to make things work because there's so much. So much, so many fishes in the sea, I don't know how to put it, but I'm not very good at playing those games. To me, those are games. And I don't know, I did do it for a little while, but I tried to kind of date guys that. Kind of go with the same perspective as me, so we are both honest and very like it's consistent behavior.

[03:35]

So if a guy doesn't text me for three or four days, I just match them or whatever it is, because it should be consistent. And it's not showing me any respect, because if he's busy, I'm busy. So I'm really bad at that.

[03:50]

But I do believe that sometimes you do have to play a bit like you mean to keep them calm. So I did do that with a guy that I'm dating at the moment. There was consistency when we were talking, but I was not always available to meet up, so I tried to keep a little bit of a balance there, but it's really hard.

[04:15]

I don't really know how to explain, but I. Yeah, I do think there is a bit of a playing games. So so what did you do in terms of playing games? Uh. I am I playing games, it's just like I think when we begin to get to get interested in someone, it's really easy to just shut everything down and just focus on that and let your life you like. At the first message we get, we hear that.

[04:49]

And I was like, oh, my God, it's him. Let me reply.

[04:51]

And I was like, no, save yourself.

[04:54]

Just finish doing so. That's just putting yourself in check. Yes. But at the same time, if it was the old me, I wouldn't think about it. I had to go through bad experiences to kinda. OK, hold on, finish what you're doing or go and do this first and then come back and reply. So I changed my behavior if it was anybody else.

[05:18]

Also it was a family member or friend message. And if you're busy, you're going to put your phone down a message in Berkeley or anywhere.

[05:24]

You know, it really depends. I normally, quite honest, I don't always have my phone with me and at work I probably they know they probably won't reply straight away, but I tried to reply as soon as I can so I didn't change retasking.

[05:41]

So I'm always like, I need to focus on.

[05:43]

Yeah, I do, I do multitask a lot so I can do that. But and I work with my phone with me. But sometimes I really have to ignore it and just focus. I carry always carry my personal phone and my work phone with me. I have to work with my phones on all the time so I will see it. But I choose to reply or not and I don't really know. I'm really bad at playing games, but to me it has to be a bit of that.

[06:14]

I was more concerned about what I was doing. I think of the OK, hold on, because if I reply too quickly in my read this into OK, she's very available to get those. Those are the things that we hear a lot.

[06:29]

I don't think it goes very well when you when any of us move too fast. Yeah. Excited for you. I think it is better to sort of take things more of a natural pace and just I don't necessarily see it as a game. It's just it's just more of a natural pace.

[06:48]

Yeah, but I say this because I'm saying about it's really hard.

[06:54]

I find nowadays to have a proper conversation through a chat, for example, where you were in the past. It was normal, like, OK, oh, we texted me and after like five minutes I would text back and then we would have a conversation. Now it's pretty much like, OK, text today, reply. But tomorrow we will send another text. It's a it's a bit hard to keep up with that pace because you end up not having a proper conversation.

[07:23]

And how are you going to really develop some interest that you will go on a date or something like that? You're not available sometimes. Yes.

[07:32]

So that's that's I think that some women are better at that than others. And then at the same time, why is it why do I feel that? But guys don't really feel that. I don't know. Because I had guys that would reply straightaway, if I message, they would reply straightaway. I think it's a feminine or masculine thing. I think it just depends on the person. It's just some people are a bit more like, oh, yeah, we need to know what message about straight away.

[07:59]

So I really believe that they have to kind of like hold back and wait a bit more natural about things. And then there's some that we'll be like incessantly texting you every second. The guy is just like, whoa.

[08:12]

I was just wondering if if women feel that pressure more than men do. Also, no one thinks about it and is just go with the flow. Now, I think I think it's positive. I think men also get the same advice from some people. But I think I definitely like you. I think the part where it has some validity is if you're I think this is like your. Like being authentic, but then there's also like there's the core of who you are, but then there's also we live in a society with social creatures and there's this social pecking order.

[08:58]

And it's like we look at people in terms of like social value and the highest status is more attractive. And so there is something that. How you act, how you behave shows people like your way, where you are sort of in the pecking order and people are watching prickliest. And if you if you're willing to willing to please be willing to give up everything, then it seems that you have low social value. Yeah, but I think where it becomes false is like I'm not going to reply.

[09:48]

I've got you know, I'm going to set my timer for four hours. I think I think you have to have a certain level of momentum. And for me, like, if someone's a long time texting, it's just like you can't there's no, like, Spock to work off. And so I personally, I would be less interested or if I feel someone's playing a game, then I just like, completely uninterested. That's what I mean.

[10:19]

Like, I'm not good at playing games. I find myself. What I changed was that maybe on the beginning because I started online dating for. Two years ago, I think, and it was very on and off because I'm not very patient, I don't know how to play games. If people would text me, I would reply to them. If I was free, I was free. And I also had the unfortunate event of most of my friends went away.

[10:46]

So they moved back to their countries or they moved to other cities. So I had more time in my hands. And I don't think that gives me less value. I don't have less value for that is just the way things worked out.

[10:59]

It's not necessarily there's less value, but we're looking like an all animals day looking like if you have a dog, you have to make sure that you'll you'll see as the leader. Yeah. So. It's not that you have less value because of that, but it's that there are certain unconsciously we judge and so conscious of it, and it was my opinion consciously and unconsciously.

[11:29]

But I think there is.

[11:35]

There is a little bit of luck, if we know we can have something, then we're going to sort of strive for the next thing. And I think people are indicting all sort of striving for the best that they can get. And so there is it's not that you have less valuable. That is just that that would play some of the unconscious triggers. But I thought there is some research that they did.

[12:04]

There was what is researched by flies, but it is found that people who play games attract partners who play games. And so they have less. It's. The more authentic you are is the best long term dating strategy. Seller, in your situation, though, like you said, you were worried that people would think that your own life or whatever it is you said, you are busy, though. You work, you you're doing this. You do not what you choose to.

[12:40]

I don't know.

[12:42]

But then I guess it's not like we try to worry less about what they might be judging you.

[12:50]

But I think I came to my son and I don't think I don't think I changed into playing games. That's not what I meant. I think that I became more conscious about putting myself first and just finishing what I'm doing and then replying. So I'm not counting the time to reply. And I'm not doing that. I'm dating this guy for almost three months, so I'm not doing that. And I did not do that. But I was just very aware that I needed to do my things first because and this was due to past relationships where I had I think I am I give a lot.

[13:28]

If I'm like someone I do, I like to do nice things for them. And it's not the first time that I would do it. I say that they had me for granted and that to me was quick. Excuse me, it was quite insulting. And of course the relationship didn't carry on. So to me, it's just like I had to learn from a really bad relationship to kind of put myself first.

[13:53]

But it's really hard to keep a good, normal balance to it. And and to me, it was more that, like, I am still interested. I still want to have a good conversation with you, but I would do this first hour.

[14:09]

I am going and do that first whatever, and then I'll reply and and at the same time, I would give probably a better reply after I had done those things because I would be more focused on life and things ended up working.

[14:27]

All right. But just but I had but I had the same opportunity where someone was always texting, always very keen. And in the end of the day, they were playing games anyway. It's really hard to read into people, I could read what was going on, it took me a little while, but I did get where we were going. But it's just really difficult. But I just kind of I think it was I'm not playing games. It was just me, like kind of prioritizing me, not getting too involved too soon and just trying to save myself, if that makes sense.

[15:06]

I think I think there's something I think there is something that, like the old value comes across in the sense of, you know. Not exactly. Yes, I think this is a principle I have that people will give you the minimum that you'll accept. And that's like being able to set boundaries and say that I'm not going to accept anything less.

[15:43]

So generally speaking, though, because if somebody wants a certain standard for themselves, regardless of what other people are going to give them or not give, if they're going to still try to hold to their own standards of themselves over recent people.

[15:58]

Yes. Yes. So is being able to walk away from someone that doesn't fit, right? Yeah. Is going to treat you right. Like there's a level that this is what I this is what I'll accept and I won't accept anything less. And then people will generally rise to it someone. But then they were never going to be, you know, this concept of somebody rising to solve it.

[16:22]

I think you mentioned this last week and it's kind of like been on my mind a little bit because I almost feel like if the rise into what your bar is for them, then they're not doing it for themselves. They weren't right. They didn't have their own boss and they're not doing it on their own.

[16:39]

I believe that people also only change if they want to change. So I don't believe that people will change because you ask them to. So if they try to rise to your standard, they are actually doing it because they want to.

[16:51]

It wasn't because they want a relationship with you and more because they value Northrop's, I think because they value enough for that. And they care about you enough for that.

[17:02]

I don't know.

[17:02]

I'm so confused by this concept, but I find really hard to, like, set the boundaries and like that kind of where you want them to meet you, because sometimes you have a very clear conversation about it. And then they say, yes, they understand and they will try and figure that out. But then in the end, they don't. And that's when I think that's about, as we speak, louder than words.

[17:25]

It's really hard to get a prescription hafter over over the what's the word for it that actions have to be what you're basing your judgments on, not the words.

[17:40]

That's the thing.

[17:42]

I think I think if you think about it like did you work out do you watch where you eat or anything like that? Yeah, so do you do it from pleasure or did it from the cost of what it will be if you don't do it for long?

[18:02]

Charity? Yeah, I want to go record long. How could go and all that sort of stuff.

[18:08]

But it's not for the love of the exercise itself. No, it's just to look after myself.

[18:13]

Yeah, exactly. So like if you didn't if there wasn't that like cost if you didn't do it. You probably wouldn't moderate, like for me, I would eat all the chocolate. I would I wouldn't work out.

[18:28]

It makes you feel groggy after a while. Yeah, exactly.

[18:31]

And that's why I like like I've got into yoga since lockdown. And I did it because if I know if I don't, I'm sitting around and I'm going to get my back is going to her shoulders are going to be stiff. So I work out because I know otherwise it's going to cause problems.

[18:50]

Yeah. You reaping the benefits from it. Yeah.

[18:53]

And again, like, like you say, when I eat sugary things I can feel and I feel like if I carry on like that then there's going to be consequences. And so the only reason I don't is because. Of the fear of of how I'll feel otherwise. And I think it's the same with people that people will naturally go for comfort, will naturally go for what's easy.

[19:23]

So it's about discovering what the person really wants and if they're open to encouragement towards getting what they want. That's about all it's partly, but it's the act of of being in a relationship means that you have to work together. It means you both have to I don't want to say compromise or I'm going to say sacrifice, but you have to go right. You have to grow into being able to accommodate both of you. And that. I'm to see you sleeping on my own.

[20:02]

This is so harsh, eventually I'll work out.

[20:07]

It actually makes you a better person. And obviously it's like working out makes you a better person because you feel better if you help me.

[20:16]

It's finding that fine tuning of Wes Wedge to accommodate for the other person.

[20:22]

And you know what I mean, where it makes you better. Yeah, I guess so, but yeah, and then what point does it become a deal breaker if they're not happy with a certain standard of lifestyle? Well, that's. That's what you have to work out, is where the where the debris like. Can you can you live with each with the problems that you have been together, can you resolve yet or not and knowing the problem is going to be there, is it something I could live with long term?

[21:07]

Yeah, like, can you understand what the source of of the problem is, understand, and there's going to be things that, you know, that annoy you about each other, but it's understanding, OK, that they're in this because this is how they are.

[21:21]

I'm not like most people would be like they shouldn't do that and they want to control someone. But it's like, I understand that's who you are and I love you for who you are. And so, you know, I accept that. Because I just think that they will be able to change, but I think that the things we have to adjust and kind of be understanding of because we are not perfect either. So they will have to accept certain yuckiness about us or whatever it is.

[21:58]

Yeah, I think we should change. We should change things like when someone brings it to our attention, it's evil, something where when we drop in below the line, like here's the line of the best partner we can be. And the best person that we can be and if they say I don't to see your friends, well, that's that's not reasonable. If they're saying I don't want you to do that because I want you to spend the time with me, that's not reasonable.

[22:32]

But if they're saying. Like your. You're not treating me as well as you could. Or in whatever way, you know, like I want you to take me into consideration or something like that, then that actually is you being a better person, a better partner. And so that's the way that it makes you like the only way, because being single is you only have to prove yourself and then it becomes exponentially more complicated when you include someone else.

[23:13]

So you have to rise to that standard in order to make the relationship. You both do. It's not like one person has to accommodate, but you have to work out what the relationship is going to be like. And that's going to mean in some ways that you're going to be need to be a better person by a partner. And so are they. And it's what? Where do you where you moron standing, where do you give more? I just feel like I have so much to learn still, because I'm finding like it's easier to break up sometimes than to just process everything in a relationship.

[23:55]

And because of the fear of, like, being disrespected or not having my needs met and all of that and how to work things through because of all the past, because of all the bad experiences and not wanting to go through those things again. So I find it hard when I go, I find something about the person that I cannot quite as I feel like sometimes bringing it to us because it might. Just make them go away, but at the same time maybe have less value in their eyes if I kind of give them a second chance.

[24:44]

Does it make sense? So I appreciate that we are you running from fear or because it's the right thing to do? That's what I don't know sometimes.

[24:57]

Now, I understand the law for a long time and the big guys, for example, and I can I can share this like the guy I'm dating, I pretty much left his house one night. I was going to stay over, but I just felt like I need I need to leave because in my head, it was like I was leaving the same thing that I lived before. And my brain was just saying, hey, you need to get out of here.

[25:29]

So. And it was it was really I was understanding you wanted to talk and everything, but I just felt like I can do this right now. I need to go home. And I just left because of that fear of, OK, why is this happening? What have I done now that is leaving for for us to stay like this, somebody saying it.

[25:49]

So it's really hard with trauma, though, because of the this is something that triggered our trauma. So this one little tiny thing that they might do that isn't it doesn't necessarily mean they would ever treat you in a way that you've been treated in the past. But that might trigger you to think that this thing's going to happen again and then you start feeling exactly how you felt. Then sort of you're living, reliving your trauma. But when that's happening, it's very difficult to work out.

[26:24]

I'm just really very much from or is this actually the way that this is headed? That makes sense?

[26:32]

Yeah, it does make sense, but it's extraordinarily hard to judge. I had to take some time and try to think, OK, why am I feeling like this? And I totally see why I reacted that way. But my fear still is still there that it might lead me on the same path and really what I have lived before.

[26:55]

So the only solution to that would be is to try and be in a soup to find to know the safe from what you call it. You know what these red flags are. There's also like Six Flags, you know, so to try and find to see the warning signs that they're actually a safe person, if that makes sense.

[27:23]

There's a book called The Safe People, which was quite good to see you able to then identify certain behaviors that tell you that this is a safe person. Yes.

[27:38]

And then it's just to be able to start opening up about the things like you are too close to them and see how how well they communicate with you around the. That would be another good way to say all this. I'm not going out for myself. It's good to know those things are always good. Thank you. It's always easier to say than to do so in the process.

[28:04]

But I think it sounds from what you're saying, it sounds like. Your fear, it's like your fear. I think you have to give people I think, first of all, you have to obviously you have to heal and you have to trust again. But when you're dating, you have to give people a chance to show you that they can't be trusted. But you have to give them the benefit of the doubt that if you never like, if you jump before, you're never going to know if you can trust someone or not.

[28:44]

But I think I think it's what's really important is that you take a case of them being in a physical situation where. Like, you have no control because it is from force. If it's if it's something that emotionally then it's about. Overinvesting or it's about letting yourself be. Change be controlled and. If I think the thing that you need we need to do is to go into relationships and being unwilling. Like the relationship doesn't matter as much as you matter.

[29:37]

And when you hold to that and not let anything. Come in as as higher value than that so that you don't. Less than yourself for anything. Then you can. Just play out the relationship and then you can see how people are. I think you have to watch people, watch what people do, not what they say and. Then you'll find out. And some good advice is just don't sleep with him. Just don't do it.

[30:19]

But what I see, if you if you do that, then it's just going to hook you straight into the relationship and then you won't be able to go with them.

[30:30]

Why is that? You feel more bonded. It definitely does a scientific fact. Yeah, no, I know it does, but I think it has more of an impact for women.

[30:44]

Yeah, maybe. Yes, it's still for I think for both, isn't it? Still that connection and in whatever way is on this still thought release of dopamine or whatever it is, you know, excitation oxytocin.

[31:03]

Um. So even even for a man, ROBERI say he doesn't doesn't isn't interested in a woman, and it's purely about sex for him, right?

[31:15]

He's still going to it's not I'm not saying it's not going to be a one night stand, but for some men, just even if it's just about sex, it's still keep going backload only. And the reason is that skilled and hot analysts find a relationship just like the woman still hooked into this bad relationship.

[31:41]

I think it depends on how you view sex and how there's a whole cultural thing and personal interpretation. So for some men, some men want it's kind of like. Quantity and fill out, right? That was the challenge now of our. You know, like I've slept with her. Now on to the next one. To some men. Don't have to. I know there is scientific fact that when Tyson in his situation sorry, in that situation, the woman isn't going to isn't going to be dealing with all the relationship, the relationship, the relationship, because he's already gone.

[32:31]

Does that make sense or do you mean that's easier for I'm not to say easier, it's not easier. I don't know. It depends on the woman. But what I'm saying is that you kind of think that I don't know. I'm just I'm talking to generalize to actually does depend on the person. But I think men can go whole, just as women can get hooked in both from different perspectives or for different reasons. Yeah.

[32:59]

Mean. Yeah, definitely. Men can get hooked in what I've seen men get hooked in because it's the first woman. It's shown interest in a while. Or she's really pretty, and I think that they're never going to get anyone else like that, it tends to be. That dynamic that I've seen. I'm talking more from the oxytocin perspective, so, I mean, I know it means different things to the man and the woman, generally speaking, but I still think there must be some oxytocin hope for the man as well as the woman.

[33:38]

The research that I've read this is that it has less impact on man than it does on women.

[33:45]

Yeah, I think it's like. I think the women is like supposed to be like three days, and I think for men it's like a day or two days. Something you want to watch, sorry for the cat, the biochemical tourism or something like that in women. Sorry, it's longer lost in women than it is in men.

[34:09]

Yeah, OK. And I think stronger. OK, yeah. So I see why that would be different than what women just don't do it.

[34:21]

And then there are women that can, can have casual sex and not.

[34:27]

That's not what you want is it. So from what I can hear, you know, I'm Partho.

[34:35]

There is no love lost. I don't think I have ever been there, but yeah.

[34:42]

Job. No. And yes or no, Britain, no. Yeah, you know, I I was sorry, I'm surprised a few more regulars are not here today.

[35:06]

Yeah. And I just got an email from Pete that he couldn't make it and. I'll just check if I got any other messages, but now I think it was everyone obviously just had it in will have to do the same next week since. We've got one more synced. Yeah, I think everyone's. I think we had a few proponents for. Playing games a little bit more. Hi, Lucy. Oh, I wasn't sure if it was happening today or over the week.

[35:45]

Yeah, I messed up. I put the wrong time down. I'll put it to.

[35:53]

So we've got a small group discussion, and given that it's a small group, if you want to discuss anything else, we can discuss anything that I want to know about.

[36:06]

Like I mentioned to you, about 100 percent. It was just playing. Keep him keen on it.

[36:12]

Yeah. I mean, there are some really just really childish and really stupid.

[36:19]

I think I want to say it was a lack of maturity, definitely. But it's like. It's like this belief that I have to do these things, otherwise no one's going to, but there definitely is like this. There is that thing that men do believe that. And I can see I can see why they believe that women lose respect for them. I think some women I don't think it's all I think the ones that want to be treated, me and the guests, I'm like, OK, how is the thing going on all the time?

[36:58]

I think there is a I don't think it's necessary. Keep the main, but it's it's I think in a relationship people see for you anyway. I think one of the challenges for men in a relationship like when I've been in a relationship 20 years, they often leave the relationship 20, 25 years for someone else for no real basis. Just because they have someone who looks up to them and admires them, which you're not going to get a home of like 20 years.

[37:36]

I don't know. I'm hearing from you that you kind of think there's a truth in it. I think there's a new nuance. I don't I don't think you should play games I. I think there's two key parts to it. I think you have to look how do you like who you are, your sense of self? And I think that can be mistaken for I think a lot of men will do this, I think if I give everything to the woman, make her happy, then she'll be pleased with me.

[38:16]

And that doesn't work.

[38:17]

That's not really that's not really that small. And so then they call police and co-dependency.

[38:25]

Yeah. It's like boys are told. Boys are told like you. You always have to treat women. Well, you have to. And there is this whole thing with like the fairy tale of dating. The man has to woo the woman. The man should always pay. The man should be gentlemanly. And so there's this. So discrepancy and inequality, and so that makes men think that the way to make a woman happy is by giving her everything that she wants.

[38:58]

And then that's dangerous, though that's so dangerous. But it's what boys are told. Like, you've got to treat women like a princess and you've got to do this to actually want to experience of this because like, I want woman and I don't remember anything at all.

[39:19]

And then my son is just like, I don't I don't know. He's still quite young, but I couldn't imagine teaching him any of that stuff personally. But I see what you're saying generally in society, that's what the boys are taught culturally.

[39:34]

It's like the message, even if you subconsciously is that man is to provide. The man is and some men feel their job is to is to make their partner happy. To make them happy, so you see, when a woman is unhappy, a man feels like I'm not doing a good enough job. That's why men don't want to talk. Because if you're unhappy, it means I failed and I don't want to I don't want to have that conversation.

[40:14]

OK, that's interesting, I hear what you say, and I can see how that would play out for sure, but yeah. I don't know, that's just a communication thing. No, I mean, I'm thinking of the type of women who are expats, like really expensive things all of the time, and the money is going to go and do whatever, even break boundaries to go and meet these demands and. I don't know, I'm just thinking of the really toxic extreme end of things, but I am.

[40:51]

There are women that feel like you have to take me out somewhere really nice. You have to buy me a nice thing because otherwise I don't feel like you value me. Yeah, I don't know what the original point was, I see do you have an opinion on treatment came ketamine or ketamine don't get treated?

[41:23]

I actually that when it came to me. Yeah. I don't really know. Like, I'm starting a new relationship and you're so excited, but I don't know. Like it never really said it's me, like because I felt like playing those games just wouldn't be myself. I would always be thinking like there are also all those things like I don't know, they say the rules. Like I said, it's like you shouldn't do all of that. And it's just so like I'm neutral, like I want to be in a relationship that's completely natural and I can customize.

[42:06]

And just feeling that would be difficult if I was playing those games. And I don't know if he could trust me. So if I was playing those games. So I don't know. I'm going the way of not playing games and being honest and everything like that, so I will see how it works out later. But. Yeah, I don't know. But this doesn't mean I don't really see the. Maybe I see some point in it, but I don't know if I would be able to do it, but I would wish for such a relationship.

[42:43]

Is there is the underlying message more don't look to overeager? I think he's done be overeager. Yeah, I think you can't know about the relationship until your end, but like a long time in. But I think you have to. You have to. Look at like see how they how they behave. So look, as you say, the stellar, I think you have to give someone a chance to hurt you, but but not not be so.

[43:22]

So you're looking when you're when you're in the early days of a relationship, like the first year you're looking for who they are, you're looking for. Will they hurt you if they're given the chance? And. Then if they do, then it's about communicating and explaining how it feels, why, why it hurts, and that you won't accept that. And then if they respond.

[43:49]

Yeah, and if they if they don't care, they do it again. They say, oh, they say the right things, but don't do it then, you know, like they're not someone you can trust. Because if they're going to do that in the first year, the 20 year for the first year, what are they going to do? I've been there, right?

[44:12]

So is it that you don't trust that you can cope with that situation?

[44:19]

I think because I gave the benefit of the doubt in the past and. And there was always that conversation. Oh, yes, I do understand where you're coming from, you are totally right. I am going to try and change this. And then for a week, it would be the honeymoon stage again, isn't it? That's what they call it, I believe. And then it will go back to the same, if not worse. So it took me quite a while to actually get on to dating again because of that.

[44:53]

This happened like two and a half years ago, and I have been in a lot of trouble to just get out there, trust and try to get into a new relationship. Because and I think I had people playing games with me online dating is absolute, it can be really good, but I had a lot of. Bad things are happening, I guess, and I heard like friends as well, so when you get to knowledgeable of that, it's kind of just puts you off.

[45:27]

And so I have been doing this online dating for two years, but I really didn't get those many states because I would just in the end of the day, I would be like, no, I don't want to or. Or I would just like I would have the app, but not use it in the end of the day because I was exhausted and I probably the only spoken to five guys is just but I don't know, maybe like my trust levels or with me being afraid of not setting.

[45:58]

My boundaries are forgiving and then being taken advantage of like my that's what I think about my previous relationship, I don't feel like I was ever a priority or that I was ever understood. And it never tried to meet me halfway. And it was not that I was trying to change him. I totally look into that relationship. I see some episodes that I could have done better. But that is my learning curve, I don't think. What I ended up.

[46:35]

Suffering from it was very good, and I think it was because. I think my dad is to say that once you forgive too many times people get used to stepping all over you, which is quite harsh, but it's that's how I felt. And now I am quite scared because I had this moment where I flaked and I it was my brain just saying, like, you need to get out of here because it looked to to similar to something I've been through.

[47:04]

So I just wanted to get out of there and now that I will have to solve that issue. I don't really know, first, I will have to see to listen to his side and tell him exactly what happened and what went through my head, but I don't really know. I'm always afraid. OK, I'll give the benefit of the doubt. Let's carry on. And then something worse happening. So no. Do you know what you would do differently now?

[47:36]

And about what happened in my previous relationship, if you were back there, would you, you know, would you react differently and if so, how?

[47:47]

I think I wouldn't have stayed in the relationship for more than four months if I went back to it. I know the things that I have done wrong that might have hurt him and that I could have changed, but I don't think I think from on for the first four months, I could already tell that things were going to go well. And I just gave the benefit of the doubt and I carried on and. It just got worse and worse. So is it is it is it about learning some truth to you?

[48:22]

So sorry I didn't hear this.

[48:26]

Right. Is it about learning trust for yourself? You saw. And maybe I don't even know why I haven't found out exactly anymore. I'm more afraid of like being stepped on and hurt, if that makes sense.

[48:44]

Well, I think, you know, at that point in the form stage, you sense that you knew you felt you knew that it wasn't going to work out.

[48:53]

And I think at that stage, you need to trust yourself more than you've got a relationship. Then you want the relationship. The trust in yourself needs to come before you in the relationship.

[49:06]

I think the stages that where I was was not the best as well, because I had just moved into the U.K. I didn't know anyone around here. So, you know, maybe I was a bit more vulnerable and isolated as well. So maybe that did not help. And now I have all this. Bad relationship in my head that is keeping me from moving forward. So it's a bit it's a bit complex to explain and really understand, but yeah.

[49:41]

So yeah, it's just like saying because I it's like I'm treating this person like it's the exact same of the other one, but. And I shouldn't be doing that, and I don't know, it's really hard. This is a good that you recognize it for what it is, though, because it's an opportunity to grow.

[50:06]

Yeah, I hope so. So if I don't say, OK, you said in the beginning that you'd grown so from something in the past. I've grown from them. I think that's the experience I had gave me more. I appreciate my time better I can live with myself better. That's something that I don't think I used to do, um, because I lived very much for him. But you recognize that and you learn from it. Yes, so that's the bit I learned, but it doesn't.

[50:50]

It doesn't mean that I'm not afraid of going through the same again, you're. I think your different point is I know, I know, but what I'm saying is it's good that you recognize that man so that you can learn to earn your hair at places like this where you can find that, you know, that's something that you might need to grow from, not fair or even just talking about it and stuff like that. So if you if you could grow from the past problem now you know that fear's your problem, you could grow from that fear as well.

[51:25]

Yeah, it's like that that thing about the red the red flags is just. Recognizing them, so there's I can't really say that I'm seeing a lot of red flags, but I still think that maybe that is a red flag and maybe that is a red flag, because I'm just afraid that's really confusing on our stage.

[51:46]

Yeah, you can grow for it, though. But personally, I don't think it's I think there's so many people, particularly people who've been in toxic relationships and they're desperate to know what the red flags are. And it's like if there's a list.

[52:05]

But I think what we all do as humans is we we we basically justify whatever we want to do emotionally and we'll find whatever logic is different. It's not that it's because of this. The I think is worth planning out. What you would do, like where you're breaking points and how would you react, because sometimes it's difficult to react in the moment to know what to do if you've prepared for it.

[52:43]

Then, unlike you, you know exactly, OK, if this happens, do this so. It's for me, it's not so much about red flags, but other than someone like physically grabbing you and physically hurting you. Emotionally, how people hurt you is because you've overinvested, because it's something where, like your your story about it, you're like little narrative is what creates the pain. It's like the difference between the reality and the narrative. And it's it's having a certain level of discipline of not.

[53:25]

However you feel like the excitement in the early days is lasting chemicals. And. Where people really get into really bad relationships is because they believe that that is love. And so when it goes bad, they're trying to recapture what the like the first flush, so people who are in toxic relationships like the first year is amazing. It's like the first six months. First year is the biggest high. It's everything they ever dreamed of because someone can play that role for a while.

[54:02]

Someone can pretend to be everything that you've ever dreamed.

[54:07]

But after six months or a year, they want what they want, they want the adulation, they want whatever, and it's unsustainable that no one can give it. And so they have to resort to manipulation and coercion and force and abuse to get what they want. And as somebody who doesn't know any better, right, we get like nosy psychopaths, sociopath, they don't care. I don't know any better, but that's that's their only out for what they want.

[54:41]

And they'll use someone. But but someone where people fall into it is because it's so great that they get addicted to that high of how it feels. And they're constantly trying to recapture that. And so they get snippets like you'd be bad and then it'll be OK. It'll be good for a week and it be bad and they don't want to give up.

[55:03]

So carrots and a sermon is really important, isn't it? Sorry, character discernment. We need to be able to be assessing the person's character. How do we treat this person, how you know how to interact with the world. I read to people do they seem quite down to earth and kind and all of that sort of stuff. Yeah, yeah.

[55:25]

People people in those relationships, they always noticed that there was something, whether it was how they treated other people or on moments. But yeah, it's it's about the thing is that like the romance of it is great and the excitement of it is great. But I don't believe that something lasting in something real. You have to get beyond that, and so that's like go with the flow. Enjoy it, but also be able to fall into the trap.

[55:55]

Yes, yes.

[55:58]

You'll see you're looking at someone's character, someone over the long term. And that means that, you know, the only way you can really trust someone is if you give them the opportunity to hurt you. And they don't like when they're really angry with you and they really in a row and I really hate you, if they still don't hurt you, then you can trust them. But. I know, like if you've been for it, it's like I don't want to go through that, but there is like there's a narrative and there's dynamics that create that pain.

[56:34]

And it isn't necessarily what's done to us, but it's how we interpret what it's done to us. And so you've held.

[56:48]

To some extent from from where you were, and so that was a process, it isn't necessarily a time, it's the process is what changed in you in the way that you look and enough distance and see you. So knowing that you healed from it means that you can heal from any any other thing in the same way. And like, if you change the narrative quicker, you can change how it feels. Does that make any sense? It was to me, so say like, for example, if somebody got cheated on, then they could be Oh I did.

[57:30]

Is because I did this or because I know they can blame themselves or they could go. Actually, it doesn't matter what I would have done, I would have done anyway. Or even if it was the nicest looking girl in the world, he still would have done that anyway to her, because that's that's more about what he his decision that he decided to act upon at that time. For whatever reason. It wasn't a reflection of me or reflection of whatever else.

[57:55]

I mean, that's just one example of of being able to heal from things and then being able to trust men again. On the flip side, if it happens to a man, you know, if he sees that, you know, she did that for whatever reason and it's not a reflection of something I did wrong. And I say it's a good narrative to start to heal from. I think the core, like the core thing online is the fairy tale model.

[58:22]

It's where people like the whole lot girls are told if you're beautiful enough and sweet enough, he'll love you. And and so the message so many people say, and I know that people who are you I don't believe in a fairy tale, but when you look at the way that cosmetics are sold, when you look at how everything is sold to women, it's like if you have this perfume, if you have the skincare, your husband is going to love you more.

[58:48]

It's not like in someone's been married. Yeah. When someone has been like 10 years, it's not going to make any difference, you know, significantly to the relationship. But that's the message that girls have always had. Like, you have to be beautiful enough. You have to be this. So when people's marriages or relationships are. In trouble, they go for makeovers, they get and they think, like, if I'm more pleased for that and like you say, it's this belief that how someone loves you.

[59:29]

Determines the value of you when in reality, if you look at logically has no relation, they do what they do because of who they are and off most of the time. If cheat. It's nothing to do with their partner. It's to do with ever feeling attractive, feeling respected, feeling. More competent, capable that they still have it all. It's got nothing to do with that. But then often, like in the argument afterwards, it's going to be, well, you did this and that's really just a justification.

[01:00:17]

That's a justification to say, look, I'm not sure. Yeah, I completely agree with you. I hear you saying. The biggest problem in relationships is we've been fed so much pressure for and even for even from from parents at child days. I was I was watching this woman today on the baby pillow. So about two years old is like, I need a we need we you don't need a way like telling the child it doesn't need to worry.

[01:00:54]

Like, well, then it got so bad and it carried on for so long. She ended up saying no, that the toilets are sure they've been closed now. And even a two year old child wants to trust these power and become confused on the toilet short due to be confused as a kid tantrum.

[01:01:13]

Such a young age. And the same thing happens in relationships and stuff. And it's sometimes has been ingrained from a very, very early start. And that's why we get so why it becomes such a big problem for us, because we're so used to it happening right from from being, you know, to or whatever.

[01:01:35]

A lot of like particularly people who get into toxic relationships. They've usually had some injury from childhood and there's a lot of vulnerability and it isn't even necessarily consciously. It's just the way that we learn as children is from we're making sense of a world that we can't understand and we misinterpret, misunderstand, and even when our parents don't intentionally mean to, there's still scars that we're going to. Just because we didn't we weren't able to make sense of it. And then that means that we feel unlovable and so we go in search of someone who loves us, which and then someone who comes over the top and shows us how special we are that no one has ever shown us, we then feel like maybe I am.

[01:02:40]

And that is what causes people to get stuck and addicted. And that's where they get. Her. There's a lot of pain right there. Oh, gosh. Can we change the subject or am I just heavy, isn't it? And second, to do some duties.

[01:03:20]

You know, one thing that's bugging me at the moment is. These two things is getting in you like you're saying, it takes you a long time to know a person, every time I date someone, I date them quickly, like take I'm over a few weeks and then not send off no refund on a date. Someone else few weeks. Know this. I think there's only one person out dated a bit longer because I was in therapy at the time and my therapist was encouraging to keep gay in this person and that didn't work out for whatever reason we did.

[01:03:56]

It was a really nice guy and like I could have had a comfortable relationship with him. But I think maybe further down the line I might have got a bit frustrated. Life seems a bit too like. We're not doing anything with our lives, this. Anyway, yeah, so, Ron, I'm gay, and now I find it is like the thought of really getting to know somebody and really sort of into a fervor for the stage with them.

[01:04:24]

Is making me like, I don't know if I can go through all of that and keep getting to know someone for that length of time and pulling away, if it's for whatever reason, it's not going to work out. I'm kind of like not wanting to put myself through it all again.

[01:04:40]

Investments. Yeah. Yeah. So it's kind of like not putting me off. Maybe I'm put in putting the brakes on too quickly with people because I don't want to get to know them more or whatever. I don't know. So is it like you're losing interest to.

[01:05:02]

I think I think I don't know if it's genuine deal breakers or if I'm just finding deal breakers and things, I'm not really deal breakers. If that makes sense, yeah, maybe a little bit less than definite deal breaker, so I'm sure I'll find a list of about 40 things that maybe maybe I just need to write a list of the deal breakers and then just check in with myself. Actually, it's not any of them things, so I should probably still get to know this person more.

[01:05:35]

Maybe that would help. Yeah, I think you have to give people a chance. Yeah, so I believe things like you will be just made to wait for each other, but then many places and people like making each other, like making good for each other like that, you want me to start with, you need to work on it. So I guess. That doesn't ever happen if. Like, the people are not coming back, its.

[01:06:11]

I don't know if I'm sure I can. I can hear you volumes quite low on my computer, I guess. But I was just saying that I believe in this like that people are cutting off the right for each other. But then many people tried to teach me that people will be made good for each other just by coexisting together and like trying and investing into it. Looks like it just just it doesn't just fit together, you have to make it like build it together.

[01:06:54]

Is that what you mean?

[01:06:55]

Yeah, yeah.

[01:06:57]

So some of it can happen if one doesn't fully commit to some relationship, I guess. Yeah, two people to be commended for its work. Yeah, I think that's what that's that's like in the first year, that's what you're looking for, is this someone he's going to he's committed and willing to. Change and grow with the relationship from. OK, stress, how much stress? Everyone's got stress in their lives and how much like, how do you determine is it just based on the person and how much they think they can deal with?

[01:07:40]

How much stress do this person got? A lot of stress in their lives. How do you determine, like. Is it just based on a certain person, though, I feel that will be too much stress for me, so, you know. Take forever with a person. It depends. It may be a time in their life where there's a lot of stress. It just it might be someone that has a lot of drama. Some people, so not another track I've seen a lot of women getting into, I've seen more and more women, is that the most of my life is so hard.

[01:08:25]

I know I've got to deal with this. I've got to deal with that. And the women will also out and they'll accept that guy.

[01:08:34]

Oh, he stressed because he's dealing with a lot.

[01:08:36]

Well, you still have an adult relationship. So, yeah, it's time management.

[01:08:43]

And yeah, you have to if you're you can only have a relationship with an adult. And if they're making excuses and I can't do this because of this, I can't do this because my life is so hard. Well, that's just. You know, that's just an excuse and. There'll always be something, but you still have to there's like you still have to.

[01:09:17]

Live up to your responsibility, so say in a situation where you've got kids and they've got a difficult situation with their access or this is not amicable, like that would be a good reason for me to go. Like, I don't know the full story, but I don't really want to know the full story.

[01:09:38]

I know maybe I'm being a bit too hasty.

[01:09:44]

Yeah, I would I would give someone the benefit of the doubt, because if you're looking like any situation, it depends like. It is going to be a little bit more stress, but it may just be like anyone can get involved with someone that's trouble and get into that kind of relationship doesn't necessarily. Isn't necessarily a reflection on them, and it's it's not necessarily about their situation is tragic, you need to get to know them on their part.

[01:10:15]

And yeah, we should know you're not going to see for a while. Yeah. Lisa wanted want to pick his brains while we're here. Lucy, sorry I didn't hear this. Do you want to pick Rob's brains while we're here? Oh, everyone. Oh, you mean like ask questions or anything?

[01:10:54]

Any questions you have in terms of making sure you've got something we can talk about? Anything?

[01:10:59]

Yeah, like my situations in terms of dating has changed quite rapidly in the last two months or so. It was like on the dating sites and dating one guy was bad after a while and it was very emotionally draining and I went home and then I got to get someone completely unplugged. And now I have another problem, like totally love, but we are far apart. So it's got some problems of distance relationship. And he is still trying to get to me like he's still fighting to get to me in 12 days, but I'm still going to be quite difficult.

[01:11:38]

So if anyone has any tips for a long distance relationship, how to keep it together. I committed. I couldn't cope with long today, with long distance trying to in the past, I couldn't do it, but I know that it works for some people. I know in normal conditions it would be fairly easy because it can be mostly done online, so we would need to be there once in like a month or two and his job, so he would be able to come for a very long time.

[01:12:12]

But the current is making it very difficult to be able to see. I think the difficulty in long distance relationships, which are much more difficult because you don't have contacts, so you don't have communication and. You're talking, Sasha, about their oxytocin in that you don't have any of that, so it's difficult. It's difficult that communication about trust, you can misunderstand each other. So I think the thing that you have to do in all relationships is which, again, is easier said than done, but is.

[01:12:57]

Assume the best and. Be the best partner you can and. Because what happens is this like narrative of now, you know, maybe they they. Maybe they're lying to me, maybe they think maybe this, maybe that, and that's the thing that comes in and causes wedges between people. Yeah. I think as far as wildlife, it may be just surreal, I'll I'll respond after it was just something that jumped into my head. Yeah, I was just saying that so far it seems to work well with good trust and good communication, even online, but I guess once we I'm not in the first month of the relationship, it might be slightly more difficult when you have more work to do.

[01:14:02]

And there's also the master control in the imagination as well, because you've only got so much information like your imagination, what was he like in this scenario? Are they going to be like this? And I think that would be the hard part. Right. Is this your imagination of what they would be like in real life?

[01:14:26]

Yeah, I'm hoping that we had quite intense period together, and then once he arrives in like 12 days, we'll be quite intensely together as well. So it will be just. Yeah, I don't like the uncertainty of the time, it's like horrible, like you could normally just fly very cheaply.

[01:14:46]

There might be a good thing, it might be a good thing just to slow down. So is slowing things down a little bit.

[01:14:54]

And. And we are going very quickly, I guess, if you don't mind getting locked down together at the moment.

[01:15:03]

That's. Now, it could be risky, I guess, but then try out and discover a bunch of problems maybe.

[01:15:12]

I think just naturally. You're going to get excited, and I think you enjoy that, enjoy that, but also keep a little bit detached where you're looking at the difference between, like the long term and the short term. So, like, I think what we do is it's like it's a why even you just enjoy that wave. But remembering there's a difference between long term and the short term. Does that make sense? You mean like whether we are planning long term or short term?

[01:15:50]

You know what I mean is. Like enjoy, like you're in a new relationship, you're in love, you're really happy in that. So enjoy that. But. What where a lot of people go wrong is that that they say we love each other, we're always going to love each other and that. So there's the emotional side, which is great. But it also has to tally up with a logical side of it, not like not being biased, where all, all, all of us go wrong in life and in relationships is cognitive biases.

[01:16:33]

Like we have blind spots, we have shortcuts. We believe things what we want want to be true. So like when you're having you know, if you are in love with someone, you want them to be the perfect person and you overlook evidence. To show that they know annual override that because you don't want it to be true. And so what I mean is like, enjoy. Just enjoy that. And but just. Let don't rush into anything and let it play out and you'll see.

[01:17:16]

If it is and if it is like. You know, you will. This is like your only shot. You would have it again. I don't know. I don't want to, like, be a downer, but I'm just and, you know, probably it will. But just you have to just have logic as well.

[01:17:44]

I think you never like to hear, but yeah, I guess. Are really trying to work on it properly. Like many of us sometimes is someone who tends to be long distance away, kind of quickly fell apart as we didn't really properly try, like it was just like, oh, we haven't seen each other for months and we don't even need to talk anymore. But this time we seem to be investing quite a lot of effort into like developing the relationship and getting to know each other properly and communicating.

[01:18:23]

This is. One of them, like Esther Perel, has this idea that. You desire and emotional closeness. Mutually exclusive. So having distance creates more desire. If I explained it clearly enough for them, I. Does that make sense? The I'm not sure why should they be excluded? No, I'm not saying I agree with that or I'm not sure she has some evidence. And she she argues that cop who's the more emotionally close they are.

[01:19:19]

Because she says, like, you shouldn't hug, you shouldn't kiss. And then you have more. Sexual desire. It sort of runs counter to. Everything else I've seen. So if one desires someone, is it, then they are less emotionally close?

[01:19:44]

Yes, she says basically the more that you know someone. The less you desire them. But then how would it ever work in, like, long relationships, like even if they are together, they get to know each other very well and they get something for it, so whatever. But if it's actually good, then it stays together. Now, if they were.

[01:20:20]

I think there's something to it, because logically, yes, when you first know someone, you're more attracted to them. Lindheim honeymoon stage, but I think it's bit extreme like her. Her advice is you shouldn't shouldn't shouldn't have something like that, but you shouldn't like, you know, like as husband and wife or people living together for a long time. You should keep your distance. That psychological tantric sex. So I'm just like, don't case, don't hug, you see, the president isn't a hundred times you kiss like I thought.

[01:21:10]

Gosh, I think what she's trying to say in terms of like a long term relationship, if if things are getting like the sex drive is going downhill either way that have a little bit of time apart to reignite things. I think that's what she's going to do.

[01:21:27]

I heard that one before, but the way that it was put, it was like it's like you're under the same roof and behaving like that. That's what I was getting at. Yeah. Which can come across as cold, like some people would complain, like, oh, you haven't said it, you love me today.

[01:21:46]

So not to hug, not to kiss or something like that, to be mutually agreed between people in this case, it is just really just suddenly change.

[01:22:00]

Sometimes you run into the opposite problem. Most people say that once it stops working physically, it stops working overall for them. Like, I don't have that experience yet because I'm getting like I didn't have any longer relationship here. But it's what many people say that they have the problem of is it going to work? And then it's causing them a lot of stress. And it's not like. Difficult for the relationship in. Yeah, I think definitely because if you're in an exclusive relationship, that is your like your gateway to sexual relations, if someone isn't interested.

[01:22:42]

So there's there's that this frustration of not having a release and feeling like you're trapped within a relationship. And then there's also. A sense of rejection, which then becomes like, I'm less attractive. So, yeah, that causes bitterness and also, yeah, I mean, it all depends on the narrative that. Whoever has about that, yeah, yeah. I think there's there's more detail to it, but there is there's definitely like particularly research shows these women who are actually less interested in a longer relationship.

[01:23:34]

It's because traditionally there's always been like this man that is men, but actually there's some research that shows it's women that need more variety than men. No, I think we we came to go into relationships worried about people cheating, and then it all gets a bit messy, don't rather than sort of trust in the other person not to. If that makes sense, if you've got that level of sort of communication and you kind of see that person's morals and what boundaries they would and wouldn't cross, you know, and if they can take a lot of their sort of worry out of things.

[01:24:38]

Yes. There's an interesting book. Obsession of color over there, but it's all about Gen. David Buss, psychologist, about jealousy in relationships where it comes from and research into it. That's interesting. What's it called? Oh, shit, I think his obsession with. OK, she's no obsession, the dangerous passion, dangerous passions you don't find when you read and stuff like that, though, I mean, it's good to understand the say jealousy and how that works out in relationships, the PSA level.

[01:25:40]

But in that process of learning about do you not think because that's all our minds focused on, we can then worry about it manifested in our own relationships.

[01:25:52]

He kind of get along well.

[01:25:55]

Yeah, it's like if you're a policeman, a policeman, and he sees bad things, all they expect is bad things from sort of, you know, the interesting one, one thing that we've we've only ever seen bad relationships and we've only ever read and seen on TV and everything we're immersed in is bad relationships. And when it comes to having a relationship, it's like we expect it to be bad and we don't know any better or any different because that's what I don't know.

[01:26:25]

Yeah. Okay. So let's have a little quick poll and in a chat, if you want to speak, how many of us have seen. Oh, OK, how many relationships would you say that you've seen that you would like to emulate? In real life, yeah.

[01:26:52]

Yeah, I think I know some yes, some I'm trying to think maybe. Maybe. Could be a couple. So there are so few, I think, where money, money and relationships, we got really screwed up ideas. So the interesting thing, the most shocking thing for me in reading that book is that there's always been an issue of jealousy and patriarchy is set up to control women. It's to make to shame women about sex, to control their access to men because of men's fear.

[01:27:48]

And so then there's all these people that jealousy has been in their relationship and they've been like, I think mostly studies with men and they're then having therapy about their trust issues. And, you know, the interesting thing. Is. In a lot of those cases, the other person actually was cheating. And so infidelity is huge and always has been.

[01:28:22]

It's not like not all people, but my point is, is when you focus in on a subject like that, I'm not I'm not saying I'm just when any subject that we focus on, like an assistant majority of people, then, you know, I think that can make us more worried about it happening to us because we're forgetting about a few. Yeah. And also. Yeah, I yeah, I suppose it's a fear of. Of what would happen, of what it means about you.

[01:29:10]

Yeah, is. It is all that narrative, actually, I've been talking with someone who wanted to have a talk about polyamory and multiple relationships. And is that the way forward? So we've we had an exchange and I wasn't sure if the interest from people just how do I swing by the.

[01:29:45]

Like Swingin', maybe more polyamory is the argument for polyamory is that we're not just to love one person, we have too much love to give. We should be adult enough to love different people for different things. Yes, so that's the argument and really it's about not possessing someone, it's about sharing your love and loving many people and not being obsessive, possessive or. Now expecting everything from one person. I don't know, I mean, I've only got like I could only bring my sort of religious perspective to things.

[01:30:33]

So with the religion, I practice my not being allowed to marry more than one woman, for example. But women can't marry more than one man, one man, for example. So I think that would be sort of polyamorous to some extent. Or is it you more talking about families living in the same household?

[01:30:54]

No, I think polyamory is quite a big movement and it's generally both. It's it's basically so you'd have multiple partners. They'd have multiple partners. These are like real relationships. It's not like swinging when you're like you're just sleeping with someone. But it's it's real relationships, but coexisting. So they live in one house totally and how they can do that, but no, this is typically like you go off and see. They've won I and Jeff the next and Tom, another time, I'm busy on the arguments, the arguments from a religious perspective, why that would I mean, now it's different in modern times to some extent, is that it was a.

[01:31:50]

If men if it's men with women, they always knew who the child's father was. Whereas if it was women with men, they didn't know who the child's father was, also these DNA tests and stuff these days? Well, that was one of the reasons why men were allowed to and women weren't and also to do with these loads of things. That was just one example. But there's a lot of reasons why they said yes for men and they shouldn't be for women and.

[01:32:23]

None of it's come into my mind at the moment. Yes, it's only it's only men who have enough to to to be able to look after multiple women, isn't it? You can provide enough resources. Yeah, so I was one of them, yeah. So. To me, when I'm looking at that, that looks like that was a rule made by men weighted in favor.

[01:32:48]

Yeah, they would have definitely been made by men, but I don't necessarily think it was in favor of men. They they did. It was a societal thing. So if there was people left over from war, for example, and there was women without husbands, it needed looking after that would be one way of the women being looked after at the end of a war. So all the men would have been killed and then the left with all of these women that have no one to take care of them.

[01:33:15]

And that was one of the reasons why was so women could be taken care of because there was a lot more women than they were men. This loss, these losses, I just don't remember much of it.

[01:33:28]

Well, I don't think I don't think it's like one. There's one way just to give men the upper hand or to give men something and take away from women, it wasn't a light at all. It was more it was best for society.

[01:33:46]

Well, the like the big fear of men is I'm not really I'm going to bring someone else's child up there. So that's where I felt like it was mine. But if you look like anthropology, there's there's lots of cultures with different mazelike cultures will love these cultures with polygyny where the woman has multiple there's not many, but there are cultures where women have multiple husbands. Yeah, I mean, this monogamy and then this. Polygamy and. Now is like polyamory.

[01:34:40]

But I I. I don't believe it works in our culture, and I'm not saying it from a moral basis or it can work. But I think it requires the level of emotional development, emotional intelligence, to not not get jealous, not have someone not feel more not.

[01:35:06]

No, I don't I don't think you can't take jealousy out of the equation because that's a natural human emotion is about managing. The jealousy can be managed.

[01:35:15]

And that that's the argument of polyamory. We have to grow and we have to love each other more. And we have to learn the I remember John Gottman being asked passive.

[01:35:26]

So it sounds like they really say saying that jealousy has to be removed, obsession has to be removed because he's a natural human emotions.

[01:35:33]

Springle for everybody is basically what they say. And this is in juggling multiple relationships. You have to.

[01:35:46]

Look, I don't like. If you look at spiritual movements and spiritual people who are really into spiritual stuff. I don't like, you know, like it becomes like a badge. I'm more spiritual in you. I'm more involved than you. And in every kind of community like that, there's people use something to say. Something to seem like get one over, you know, I mean, or himself are very competitive. Yes. In a bad way.

[01:36:29]

So that the. The use in Datsyuk instead of light oh, and I've Gorbachov and you become a spiritual thing. I've got more spiritual notes than you. It's just like so very petty and childish. Yeah.

[01:36:46]

And I think that there is.

[01:36:52]

It can be an argument I've seen of all of them, we're more evolved, but it's quite. Yeah, I mean I mean the argument, it it it's a convincing argument. But when you look mechanically and I remember John Gottman being asked, like, why didn't you study them? And he said, we tried. He said that those type of relationships don't tend to last long enough to get them in the study to like to get them in the lab to to to study them.

[01:37:28]

So it tends to be more like swingers as well. Also. Even having the freedom people than people then. Still, she still got outside the boundaries and. And then the jealousy and often that can be one person that really wants an excuse to sleep around and I saw coerce the other partner into it. But, yeah, I I didn't know if there was enough interest for people to. To discuss it. So are we no better off moving in the direction of healthy relationships and which ones work and which ones last, and then if we focus on them for you, we might all have about hope.

[01:38:27]

I mean, that's why I believe I believe, you know, when I said it's. I think you make relationships simpler and you make them simpler by making them more honest when because when what makes them complicated is not wanting to tell the sheriff. And complications come from avoiding the truth when you just deal with the truth, it becomes it's a harder decision to make up front. It means that you have to make hard decisions, but it's simpler to deal with because you know where you are.

[01:39:03]

See, in my ideal world, and this is why I'm still not in a relationship, because I haven't found it yet, is boy meets girl, girl meets boy. We just because, you know, like modern day in and all the rest of it. And there's so many expectations in the way that things should go. And it's just like, yeah, I to get married. Yeah. I wanna get married. Let's see if we're compatible and let's actually talk about this to civil mutual human beings and OK, if we decide we think we could make this work, let's get married and go for it.

[01:39:32]

So that's kind of where I am now. But my issue is that when I'm talking to people, I always get this sort of warrigal sense that then, all right, to drop the relationship. If we get to a point where actually I don't think we can move forward with this. So that makes it, I feel quite vulnerable areas that make sense.

[01:39:53]

So you don't think that they would say to you, I don't think this is going to work? I've met one person that very much felt like they would be happy with doing it that way or the people, it feels like they would drag it out, even if we could blatantly see that it wasn't. We were uncomparable. Like a.. No, don't be like a mutual yeah, actually, you're completely right. I'm like, yeah, I can really see where you're coming from.

[01:40:21]

This isn't going to work. And let's leave it nicely without too much emotional baggage.

[01:40:32]

But you could have that discussion at the beginning with somebody you could, but then would they still stick to it? Like because emotions are funny things and you never know. We don't even know how we'll react, let alone. Liked to think for six months, a year before. So you're wanting to have that discussion so that you don't have. Difficult situation later, yeah, so with the guy that I dated for a long time at the end, towards the end, when I thought, I can't move forward with this for whatever reasons, I just that's when we need to support each other out of this, because it got to a stage where we were really comfortable with each other and quite, very comfortable with each other.

[01:41:24]

So I was just like, yeah, we need to. We need to support each other out of this, and I don't think any of us ever really wanted to leave it where it was, but we just did. And it was easier that way because we did support each other. It wasn't like we didn't solve each of his feelings on the way out or harshly or.

[01:41:45]

I like that, so maybe I'll just do that or maybe you said I think I'm better off mentioning it from the beginning.

[01:41:53]

No, I didn't say that. I was just clarifying because I don't know. I don't know. People like to agree things early, often in law.

[01:42:04]

Are you serious? Are you in for a committed relationship?

[01:42:07]

No, I only like most most guys will have said they would have said somewhere on the profile about wanting to look into marriage. So I wouldn't really be speaking to them. I'm talking more about for some guys, it's just like gather looking for marriage. They're not looking for compatibility in the same sense that I might be.

[01:42:30]

If that makes sense, it does. I think. There is a big difference between men and women. I think. I don't think many men have. I think men and women have a different experience, a different upbringing, had different messages, different outlooks. I think men are much more happy to go with the flow and are less like men, less likely to end things.

[01:43:10]

And. This is the problem because they're less likely to end things, even if it's not right for them or for me, I don't. I don't. I don't difficult.

[01:43:23]

I don't know that necessarily having the discussion up front will change anything.

[01:43:34]

But what do you fear that you would think it's all going well, but they not be happy?

[01:43:40]

No, my fear is that it's going to be a sticky situation to go off. It's not going to be easy. If I get to know someone more, say, four or five months down the line, I will be spending a lot of time together. And I'm really starting to enjoy having them as part of my life. And then I can see something blatantly this isn't we're not compatible for whatever reason that we just can't continue.

[01:44:09]

And then being not wanting to let go of the sort of things you expect might be happening, maybe incompatible, can be solved, broken. What sort of things could we just can't get to an agreement about, say, kids, for example, and one guy that was in a lot of debt and my therapist said to me, you need to consider that if you do decide to go ahead with this, that debt is now your debt.

[01:44:46]

And I was like I spent a long time getting out of debt.

[01:44:49]

I don't want to be in a relationship where a guy is in that most debt. And.

[01:44:56]

It's just different things like that wasn't too bad because I'd only been on a few dates with him and I just thought these things, someone like me really, really wants loads of kids, for example. I mean, you can work early on, but say we were both weren't sure. And then we got to a stage where one actually really couldn't let go or one of us really wanted to stick to. I don't I'm not I'm not worried in this very well, could you kind of hear what I'm saying, though?

[01:45:27]

You know what I mean? I'm just surprised that these things can be discussed. The idea that I believe that will happen.

[01:45:36]

So you can start by discussing them and figuring out what you can do to have these social conversations with people who are sometimes it's like one person will be like, yeah, I'm not sure. And I might be like, yeah, I'm not sure. And then it could take us a long time to figure out where we're at with it. For example, if that makes sense.

[01:46:03]

No. I think that's part of the process, though, isn't it, because you're not you're not sure until you are ice is. Well, I was just saying solutions are sometimes it can be further down the line that something kunzle. You know, I believe something like that. I'm just thinking. I think you never know with relationship. I think you always have to be open to the experience.

[01:46:40]

Well, I think I think there's a there's a thin line. I think there's there's. This is a point you have to commit and be absolutely committed, because if you're always wavering, then the relationship is never going to work. Having said that, there are people change, situations change, and. You know, sometimes someone can have an accident and then then they have completely different behavior, completely unreasonable, violent, but not a situation, if you knew the person beforehand wasn't violent, that's something personal.

[01:47:28]

I would stick out because I know it's not a bad. I don't support them in the health problems. But sometimes you. I guess what you say in Rob is that if somebody if somebody. If some some call part of that person changed as the group. Is that, you know, a lot of people have midlife crisis and then suddenly change. Hi, Janice. Hi, because of the roskill. I don't think I don't think it's like like what I'm explaining.

[01:48:20]

I don't think it's. I don't think it's like a guarantee that nothing's ever going to go wrong or lives happily ever after. But I just think this is, you know, you're at least sort of in the same headspace as each other and you're on the same wavelength. Yeah, yeah.

[01:48:39]

I hear you saying is kind of like we'll be talking about a slight attraction. Is that. Getting rid of the problems as early as you can. He can resolve them. I think I'll have someone else. OK, well, it's nice to see you. Nice to meet you again. Thanks to. Thank you for nice meeting you. So just as you've joined us, Janice, we I messed up and put the wrong date for tonight, so we were talking about keeping me keep them came by cheating on me, which I.

[01:49:31]

I remember the uproar this caused last time.

[01:49:37]

We we haven't had anyone strongly advocating for cheating the men. Are you are you going to be the. The four NHAI. No, I. I don't. No, no, let me get let me get my head scarf and I'll catch up, catch up to speed with where you are. And, you know, I just need to think about where where we're at first.

[01:50:10]

Yeah. We we kind of want to all over. All right.

[01:50:17]

No, I'm not for keeping them. What was it how did you find that tape?

[01:50:23]

Well, I've already said it wrong. What did I say? Treat them, treat them OK.

[01:50:29]

But she didn't mean to keep them. I'll never say that again properly now.

[01:50:39]

And I said, I think when people have a mindset of doing something like that, it just feels a little bit like game playing.

[01:50:48]

And I think that's why I don't advocate the idea. However, on the other hand, I don't I don't think that you should be overly keen and put your own interests in your own life on how to play someone else. So I guess that's my current viewpoint on it. Yeah.

[01:51:10]

Yeah, I think I think that's very true. There is some research that found that people who do play games attract other people to play games, and it's the people who are themselves. You are a lot more authentic, who have longer lasting relationships. I'm glad to hear that research. I started to worry last week. I'm not sure if it was last week or the week before. And I did wonder, though, oh, lots of people under this mindset now where you've got to play these games to, you know, keep the main to keep them calm, because if that's the way it is, you know, I guess, yeah.

[01:51:58]

Just not that way in kind. That wouldn't come very naturally to me. I'd struggle. Yeah, I think I think there's always I mean, they thought the rules have you heard of the rules that were like 80s, 90s?

[01:52:13]

And I was very specific set of rules.

[01:52:17]

If you come across it, anyone I know I haven't Army, I'm going to find what they are, what Google searches of these people are important in.

[01:52:31]

What are the rules? Okay, so be a creature unlike any other. Don't talk, don't talk to a man first and don't ask him to dance. Don't stare, man, or talk too much. Well, I mean, Imhoff will go on a diet. Don't call him and rarely return his calls. Always end comes first down, except this Saturday night, day after Wednesday, and yet is quite a very specific and prescriptive and that was from the 80s and 90s.

[01:53:07]

I must've totally missed that. Then, you know, is a big book.

[01:53:11]

It was 1995, 1995. I was a bit busy. I was too busy working a lot at that point.

[01:53:20]

I was a physio and I was on call a lot. So yeah, I see the rose. I just did not say that. You've been avoiding wearing a face mask on, you didn't see them rules?

[01:53:35]

Oh, no, I'm wearing a face mask.

[01:53:38]

Think I. I always forget after they wanted to come say it seems like a really teenage boy thing to do.

[01:53:50]

Treat your means, keep kupinski. Yeah, it sounds that, doesn't it, it just sounds that way. My great. Actually, it's women who play more of the games. When I was reading this research, really, you know, that that specific phrase, though, that specific I don't I'm not I'm not mean. And this is a just bashing type of thing. And just that particular phrase I have the only association I have with that phrase is to teenage boys from a long time ago.

[01:54:28]

They actually believed and lived by that. So we've got to treat girls me.

[01:54:33]

Well, I think there's also sort of a macho look, you know, like.

[01:54:40]

In front of his friends, we can't seem to be seen as nice or whatever. Yeah, yeah, the guys, I don't think we made any progress. So. Is a. He. Any other topics or anything anyone wants to discuss or. I don't know, I think I'm glad that I've been able to pick your brains on so much today. Me and Sasha, because I can't see anyone else here yet. This I can see them now for some reason.

[01:55:33]

I mean, yes, sometimes it's it's got to review. You can see everyone I speak and you see who talking.

[01:55:42]

Yeah. Yeah. I think we'll have to do this next week as we've got it.

[01:55:47]

But there might be I think. I think where a lot of it comes from is is. Men on dating sites have a really tough time, and so there is this feeling there's much more competitiveness, I think, among men. Just by the dynamics of a dating site, there are more men than women, it's harder for a man to get a message reply. Women are much less likely to initiate contact. And so. It can seem that you've got to play these games and it's like women have these in coaches and things like the rules and that, but men have like pick up artists and things like that who give very specific.

[01:56:51]

What tactics? And a lot of them feel that they need to have them women, these people in line doing it for women as well. So, yeah, I mean, it just seems so heavy and like getting into every last little detail of watching this body expression and that where they used and it's just like, wow, just I think a promise you this heart, you I think you mentioned it before, this high value money for high value women.

[01:57:23]

And it's just like this is getting ridiculous.

[01:57:27]

Yeah. I think what you want and I think actually the techniques do work in the short term, but what happens is you just delaying a problem from initially to later from. Where you get the problem, but if you're if you're selling, dicing it, I'm going to get you into a relationship, then you can use tactics for that then work.

[01:57:58]

Like you said, it's just about building connection with people and about it being authentic. And then it just happens. Don't like if a guy struggling to talk to a girl and he's like, you, me, I'm not going to respond to her for five hours. Well, then she's got three other guys, all Maxygen then he might just lose out because he didn't respond. Yeah. So if you don't it doesn't work anyway.

[01:58:23]

Yeah, I think it's. Yeah. I think you need you need momentum, you need. If if it's a message every other day, like so many others say, like you should maximum for messages before, you never message more than four times. And my experience is like, is this why all the guys like pestering me to phone them after two text messages?

[01:59:02]

I think some of that and also but also the other thing is, like you said, they know that you're getting lots of messages. And I know that if you if they don't. Like develop more of a connection quickly that they'll lose their chance with you. I think that I think they're all just a bit too worried because of the day in color, and yet I think it is I think the dating dynamics brings out the worst in people. And I think but I think that if you.

[01:59:38]

Act differently and you act more. You just look genuine, a genuine connection, whether whether it's someone you were tied to or not, that you just like nice to everyone and you connect to them, then your. Like, you'll be different, people will treat you different and then you have a different experience. Yeah, but I, I, I do think, you know, like I'm doing, like, sort of like training on messaging and that's the basic problem in.

[02:00:17]

Indictee, is that. The messages are the messages are boring, the messages don't lead anywhere. And it does make a difference.

[02:00:28]

I had a guy messaged me and I wasn't interested in his profile, but he's the way that he approached me, made me want to have a conversation with him because he was like me, picked up on something in my profile and was like, well, tell me more about that. Took an interest in my interests. And that led me to want to have a conversation with him. So that does definitely work then. It doesn't. He then felt disappointed because I had this conversation with him, but I was like, yeah, I'm not really I didn't want to take anywhere that I thought at all he felt like.

[02:01:04]

He felt like I was leading him on or you should have told me from the beginning that he wasn't interested and I just felt like, well, I couldn't help pull off a conversation with you because you were so good at a conversation type of thing. And it wasn't it was just too attractive for me not to have that conversation with him. So, I mean, even that has its downfalls as well.

[02:01:24]

So it does. But then he probably would have been the one why you want your message. You know, you can that. I think. One of the biggest problems in deicing is everyone is out, everyone's out for like. I won't miss I won't miss eyewitness, and no one's got any consideration for what is ever personal. And if you let go of what you want and. Like you, if you just if you have that message in conversation with enough people, then you that's how you develop the connection.

[02:02:13]

But it's not been hung up on a specific person or been hung up on an outcome like it doesn't. You know, you can have the conversation without. Needing to go somewhere? Yeah. Yeah, that's a set to go in with. Definitely takes the pressure off, doesn't it?

[02:02:35]

Yeah, it's the thing is, it's just the process so that basically there are enough single people. There's someone there's plenty of people for everyone. The problem is in finding them. And it's just a lot of the things that people go in with, the barriers, the meeting like I need to know if this is a long term relationship. I need to know if you're doing this or that. There are things that stop the connect connection. And if all we did was this is who I am, this is what I'm looking for is this kid.

[02:03:12]

And if you just did that and even if you were like, OK, you know, maybe I'm not attracted to you, but, you know, we could be friends. And if you did that with enough people, someone's got a friend who's, you know, like they'll know someone who you'd be right for.

[02:03:29]

My problem is, though, he's like, I could end up with friends with like all of these guys. And then I meet the right person and I've got like 20 guy friends in my old.

[02:03:42]

And then they're also one in a conversation hoping that maybe it will go somewhere. You know what I mean? It's just like, yeah.

[02:03:51]

Yeah, it's biocides just been. Clay. And having and being able to listen and take what someone else says. I think it would be just like I'm not interested in a I don't feel there's chemistry and I'm happy to chat and in my life, I really want to check. Some will because the other problem is that a lot of people on dating sites who are just looking for a friend and not really have any interest in and anyone. You know, there's different dynamics, a lot of different dynamics going on, isn't there?

[02:04:40]

Yeah, yeah.

[02:04:42]

I was watching this video the other day of a dating coach and she was saying, oh, gosh, I just lost my hand.

[02:04:51]

Oh, what did she say about online dating for hours now? We'll come back to me afterwards. But it was it was it was something to do with what you just mentioned before. Well. It is I think the is, or at least for me, it is kind of like, you know, when you talk build in that genuine connection with someone on. He sort of taken a slower approach to get into some key things about the. For me, it's just like you, I don't want to build like this relationship with someone, and if you're not to work out, which is stupid because there's never going to find the one that works, I will ever keep doing that.

[02:05:40]

Well.

[02:05:44]

The less fear you have. The more the quicker it will take and it's taking longer because of the fear.

[02:05:53]

Yeah, because the more like fear and when when you open up. But it's to do with what's really important is knowing that you can heal from pain, like if you know that there's a process and that the pain is really about a fear of it not never happening. And knowing that if you can so if you know that you can heal, you know that you can always find someone to take. That takes away the fear and the anxiety and then you can open up and you can.

[02:06:31]

Being unfair in time, that's my problem, I need to just let go the first time. Yeah, I love being there as well for women at my age, I think that even if you are aware you've got a fear of time, you biology's telling you more is screaming at you all the time. Like from on a subconscious level, like this is a completely out of my control. Does that make sense because of like four babies to by the age of 40, so even if I didn't have this fear, my biology would be instilling this fear in me anyway?

[02:07:10]

Yeah, I mean, I think that that's the biological is the only real fear there is. Like I think I remember that twenty nine is the most twenty nine and thirty nine are the most people. Like if you took an age there's more people married at twenty nine and 39 than any other time because it's coming up to big milestones. So yes, biologically I think. You have to realize this is a difficult one, but you have to look at is going to have to try and keep my father in check and just like.

[02:07:50]

But things happen, I guess. It's so hard because you have those dreams and you see like time is running, it's like you feel like time is running out.

[02:07:59]

So I don't really want kids, like, because it's my son's twelve, so I don't really want more children because I love the ages of the moment and I love babies and I love kids. But I always kind of feel like, you know, he's a lot more independent and I can do a lot more things. And I'm enjoying life and I enjoy spending time with him. We can do a lot of things together that are more adult and. I just see I don't really want kids because of my because of my age, I was my son was a lot younger, probably one more and.

[02:08:41]

All men want kids like my father. He said, why don't you try somebody older that's already got kids? So I tried somebody old and it's already got kids and they still need more kids.

[02:08:55]

So, yeah, I've gone for somebody older again that's got kids and he wants more kids, but we've not had the conversation yet. He's like a really, you know, these dead set on having more kids or not. So we just have to wait and see. I suppose she really like if everyone. Was open, transparent. And you man off people, but typically it's like the fear, the fear stops them from reconnecting with people, and because of that fear, it means it's harder like people have got masks up and you can't see who the one is.

[02:09:40]

But if you could if you interacted with enough people with transparency, then like the speed of light, the speed of finding someone that you're going to have a lasting relationship would be quicker. But it's it's like fear and everything that holds us back. It's, you know, public speaking like nobody wants to speak because no one wants to stand out in the same way. No one wants to feel rejected. But the rejection is really only a story in our head.

[02:10:18]

Yeah, does that make sense? Yeah, it's not necessarily a rejection, it's just not what's best for each person.

[02:10:24]

Yeah, I mean, rejection is really projection is is it seems personal, but it's not. No, it's not.

[02:10:32]

I think that's one of the biggest lessons and one of the biggest mantras to kind of hold on to a lot of the time is even if it seems like it's the most personal thing ever, even if it is the most personal thing ever. Don't take it personally, because when we don't take it personally, it's removed from all of the I don't know how to explain it, you know. I mean, it's because.

[02:10:56]

We inherently selfish, like biologically, we can't help it, and we can only look out in the world in our eyes, and so we make a story about the world and the way that we make the story about the world is really the star where the central character. So when we get her, is that enough from childhood, though?

[02:11:18]

Do we not grow out of that? Or is that are you talking even even with not only grown adults, we were talking about like, you know, the spiritual competition about this is just not adults who have not developed past a certain stage, though.

[02:11:39]

Not many adults at stake from our conscious perspective, I can't say that it never comes up for me because, you know, even for myself, because I'm aware of it and it's not something that I want to do. It kind of is just like.

[02:11:55]

Not just comes up naturally and then when I know is it it's like I know this is wrong. This doesn't feel right. I don't want to be like this with other people.

[02:12:06]

And don't we devour pasta, we can we can eat like I tried it, but the. Unless we give them a lot of for. We're the story we're going to make up. He's going to have us as the central character. And when we're the central character, it means that rejection is about us, it means when we get hurt, it means it's about us not being lovable. All of that stuff means that you're making yourself the star of the story when actually you were the supporting character in that story.

[02:12:44]

Look at what you see. I can see how a lot of people think like that, so whenever I think it's I think it's different. I think if you're really conscious, I think you're free. But there's a level of. Conscious awareness, and then there's a level that we operate at. And so our emotions are typically on the on like the food that we think as little as it's like cognitive economy that we think is Laois, we have to because we we have to keep our brains alive.

[02:13:22]

It goes into autopilot.

[02:13:24]

Yeah. And so that also pilot says this is about me, that I did this because it was me and really stands Takins really go to help him with that concept of helping people out of that sort of thinking.

[02:13:42]

I've I've I've read a couple of his books, but I've read them all audio books. I don't always take it all in. And yeah, I need to I need to pay more attention to. His stuff is going on over there. He was mentioning about the nervous systems, a of concept, big concepts that houses the bubble. So that is about creating this safe space for each other and that it cools, it says, in the foxhole together or something like that.

[02:14:16]

And it's basically mutually agreed on things that when you're together alone, that you don't you create sort of boundaries with each four out when you're out together and you preplan everything basically and say, please don't do this because this will hurt me here.

[02:14:34]

And you create that bubble where, you know, when you're together, you say, oh, I remember that woman, the the dating thing that I was watching. She said when she was dating, she says she always went in with this mind frame that there's lots of good men out there. And she said because she would have gone in date and with the mind frame of mind or they're all going to hurt me. Old old battle, she would never have enjoyed a date.

[02:15:00]

But because she had this you know, men are inherently good. You know, there's lots of nice men out there that treat women well and blah, blah, blah. So she went out and all of a she had good experiences in a date because of her mind frame that she went in with. And so I think it's really good. I think a lot of it is about the mind frame that we go in with with it with into things where it is.

[02:15:23]

And I think what where a lot of fear comes from is that we we've come from a Christian culture when it's good and bad. And when people do bad things, we judge them as bad, whereas actually most people. Do bad things when they afraid and they did good things when they're not afraid and it's just the. Yeah, and it's when I'm talking about connecting, it's connecting to the goodness in people, and then they will be no more likely to be good to fly good.

[02:16:07]

Yeah, yeah. And it's it's like it's a bit of a dance that you can bring out the worst in someone. You can bring out the best in someone. And it's about bringing out the best. It's not necessarily like when you're looking and evaluating someone and sort of judging the character. It's not necessarily them as a person, but it's within that bubble. Can you create the best thing for me?

[02:16:37]

It's about where they're heading, what they want in their life. If they're on their own self development journey and they're on their own character development journey and whatever, the flaws aren't going to matter so much because they're always going to be working on themselves. Regardless of my input or not. I see myself as just someone to support out. Bring that out of them.

[02:16:57]

Yeah, just as long as. It's actual change, not just talking about change. You know, we had them already on some sort of doing something in the lives of says that they actually are making the. Yeah, which which I think really is about your ability to live with fear and manage fear. Because when you when what stops growth is fear and was that's why one of the really good grounding techniques that Untaken talks about in Wired for Dating is to notice the fear.

[02:17:35]

And when you fear, you know, you start tense, you know, just to breathe and relax, because then you show a more authentic side of yourself rather than somebody who's responding to fear.

[02:17:49]

You give you a breathing techniques and, yes, these breathing techniques and just become aware of your muscles and even says I didn't do this, that but, you know, sort of have a fake date with a friend and see how you feel like, you know, sort of practicing for an interview type of thing, like to sort of do a pre pre on before. And, you know, he talks about, you know, making sure you've had a good night's rest.

[02:18:15]

Before you go. Don't be late. Make sure that that where you meet is not too loud and just, you know, just all a little sort of. The little things they sort of how. So create the environment for something good to come out of. Yeah, I think maturity is seeing. What could happen and. Being prepared to deal with it early so you can even do that from experience, you can have an experience and learn from it like a bad experience, then you learn from it or you can preplan that.

[02:18:54]

You can't plan everything, but you can prepare for it like there is. There is a theory that why we dream is preparing us for social situations. So if you've got something coming up, you tend to have dreams about how you would deal with this situation. And there's a theory that we're wired. She learned through our dreams. That's what we dream is I always thought that I was just more manifesting itself in dreams.

[02:19:27]

What is a theory? But it's a theory that we. Like dreams is is we have lost on our mind that we know what's going on. We've got to deal with and we dream about context relevant to that. So that teaches us what we would do. So this is selling and within.

[02:19:52]

Yeah, yeah, so you see that play out, the scenario, like you said, like the fact die in a dream world, kind of doing the same, what would play out? And then it's developing the neurology to be able to deal with it. That's interesting. Well, I think we've pretty much covered. I mean, for this week, we probably going have to go over it next week when maybe we've got some more. Small, vigorous debate, is it?

[02:20:43]

Well, I had planned actually was to get everyone here for yes, in one room.

[02:20:50]

Everyone I know in another room and then have a debate to try and develop my arguments. But we'll see next week before we go. Anyone got any threatening comments, questions?

[02:21:08]

Now, I just want to say thank you myself, or you can put my mind at rest a lot, give me a of sort of a cocktail of confidence is the right word. You've helped me reset myself a little bit. Ready for the future. Thank you.

[02:21:24]

This. Thank you for being here. Yeah.

[02:21:29]

I think the biggest it's like I can remember the quiet, but it's like every war is one test in your own mind.

[02:21:36]

You have to fight yourself before anyone else. And it is really all in your eye. All in our heads, everything. And if we can get out of our own way, then other people will be who they are, but it's just we navigate around them. And as long as we keep ourselves safe physically and emotionally, then. You know, like we can deal with anything, just knowing that we can deal with everything. Yeah, yeah, the two points you made about it boils down to fair, and the other thing is that, remember, you can heal from if you can heal from whatever, you can heal from whatever comes up in the future.

[02:22:25]

So if something bad happens, it happens. Yeah, yeah. I mean, healing is a process. And when you know that you can heal, it just gives you confidence, you know, the fight to bring her home. And then when you know that you can die and you can find someone, then you don't have that scarcity of God to stay in this relationship or whatever. So, yeah, that's that's the two fundamentals. From a personal level, well, for me, it's more like if I do get attached to somebody, I can detach and it doesn't have to be the end of the world.

[02:23:05]

I can still sort my emotions out and, you know, move on. Yeah, so so not to not so I don't stop myself from what we try.

[02:23:14]

And yeah, it's like detaching is just about the story, story, the story. And that character plays in your life. When you change that story, you change the attachment.

[02:23:27]

Thanks. All right. Thanks, everyone, for being here. And I'll see you next week.

[02:23:33]

OK, so I.