Trends is your friend. Why do some NFT's work so well while others struggle to take off ? From the inside out we speak with Jeremiah Agthe and Esko Koivula of Kinos, about NFTs. Talking about trends , MEME coins and why they will never lose community rallying to how NFT utility is reshaping how we interact with Web3, this insightful conversation takes us across the utility arc for some exciting possibilities of NFTs. If you're curious to know more, jump in.

Kinos - Jeremiah Agthe & Esko Koivula

Participants:

• Nadja Bester (CEO & Co-founder of AdLunam)

• Jeremiah Agthe (Co-founder at Dehidden)

• Esko Koivula(Web3 professional)

00:23

Nadja

Hey, Web3 world. This is Nadja Bester from AdLunam welcoming you to another episode of the Future of NFTs, your go to show for unraveling the potential and the future prospects of non fungible token technology. Now, if you've been joining us for a while, you'll know, if not, if you're new, Each week, we speak to some of the most intriguing minds in the industry shaping the future narrative of NFTs right in front of your eyes. The show is proudly sponsored by AdLunam, the Web3 industry's first and only investment platform that values and rewards your attention through allocation. Our Engage to Earn platform not only boasts dynamic NFT investor profiles and NFT allocation fractionalization, but it also pioneers the innovative Proof of Attention allocation mechanism. This is our distinctive way of saying thank you for your time and engagement. So let's dive into the unknown together and shape the Future of NFTs.

01:20

Nadja

02:31

Nadja

700% increase and also 831% increase from April 20 and April the first, respectively. Now, high profile advocates like Michael Saylor, the MicroStrategy CEO, endorse the Ordinals protocol for scaling cryptocurrency. That being on the one hand, on the other hand, crypto critics of this new development highlight risks like increased transaction fees, chain bloat, and the proliferation of meme coins that don't add a lot of long term value or sustainability to the Web3 industry. So happy to have you join us today as we delve into these very exciting developments and also highly controversial controversies surrounding bitcoin ordinals and the BRC 20 tokens, which is setting the stage for a deeper look into bitcoin's future and that of NFTs. So sit back, relax, and enjoy today's show. With us on stage, we have Jeremiah Agthe, who leads sales and customer acquisition at Keynotes, a company at the forefront of NFT solutions, and Esko Koivula, head of product at Hedgehog Protocol.

03:42

Nadja

He's also the co-founder of Finland's largest web3 community. Now, Jeremiah, who is a seasoned sales and marketing professional, couples his business acumen with his passion for the ever evolving world of web3and on blockchain. And I can certainly attest to this myself. We've been connected for a while, and if there's one thing to be said about Jeremiah, it is that his curiosity for experimenting with the latest and the greatest in cutting edge tech means he's constantly fighting himself right where things are happening as they're happening. So Jeremiah has been involved with Ordinals for a good few months and he's working on satoshi pad a bitcoin ordinals Launchpad, so you can expect a lot of hot takes on today's topic. And as for Esko, he brings with him a wealth of experience as a business developer, product manager and a top NFT insider in Finland.

04:40

Nadja

There's some disturbance on the line. His deep understanding of the web3 sector coupled with his entrepreneurial spirit promises to provide valuable insights into our conversation. In his role leading product at Hedgehog Protocol, he works on chain native derivatives like speculating and hedging on gas fees in the DeFi space. So together, our guests today will shed light on Bitcoin ordinals their unique attributes, challenges, potential advantages over traditional NFTs and their prospective impact on the broader NFT market and the future of Bitcoin. So without further ado, Jeremiah and Esko, welcome to the Future of NFTs. We are absolutely delighted to have you here with us today. Where are you dialing in from?

05:30

Jeremiah

Hey, thank you, Nadja, very much. Very much for having us here. This is my first twitter space on stage, so pretty excited about that also. Yeah. Hello, everyone. I'm Jeremiah from Finland and I've been working at Kinos for six months. We provide and develop like NFT solutions for brands and companies and this is just one of our ongoing project at the moment. Let's talk about ordinals with Esko.

06:11

Esko

Yeah, thanks for having me dialing here also from Helsinki, from Finland, like Jeremiah and yeah, I'm just very happy to be here to discuss about ordinals. This is like, one topic that has blown my mind lately. Recently I discovered Ordinal early February, so quite of the beginning of everything. Back then, we were trading in discord via Escrow services and so the growth from in a few months, which we got from February to here, is like, crazy. So I am very happy to be here and discuss more about this topic. Thanks.

07:07

Nadja

07:37

Esko

Yeah, sun is beginning to shine all the time. Well, not right now, like in the middle of the night, but yeah, it's very light in here, so it's pretty hard to fell asleep.

07:53

Jeremiah

Yeah, I don't complain. I had been like eight months in the darkness and cold for eight months. So I don't mind if the sun shines now for three months straight. So, yeah, I'm fine with that.

08:12

Nadja

I can imagine after the darkness, the light must come out. So, yeah, happy that is happening. Right, so let's dive right in. Let's start for those of the guests in the audience who don't understand the concept behind bitcoin Ordinals, can you explain in a nutshell what exactly this means and what it entails?

08:33

Esko

09:41

Nadja

Jeremiah, do you have something to add? I think that was already a very good starting point as a 101 definition, which is certainly what most people in the industry who are not intimately familiar with ordinals need is exactly that 101 explanation.

09:57

Jeremiah

Yeah, that was really good explanation from Esko. Yeah. Ordinal theory. Yeah, it allows you to track individual satoshis and inscribe data to it. That's basically it. And that's where the non fungibility comes to that satoshi. So technically it's not fungible token because it's 100% bitcoin network, it's 100% on chain. So that's why I'm so excited about it.

10:42

Nadja

Now, I'm going to be honest with you. Every single person that I've spoken to over the last few months are in one of two camps. One camp is they are absolutely super excited about what the possibilities are going to be, and the other camp is absolutely hating on it and asking why? Why? So I know that both of you are in the one camp where you're very pro as to what the future possibilities of this new technology or possibilities around this new evolution of the technology might hold. So I'd like to know, what do you think are the major advantages of bitcoin ordinals compared to traditional NFTs for example, since that's a primary use case at the moment?

11:27

Esko

Well, yeah, of course the advantage is that it is only always fully on chain and advantages. What I consider like most awesome thing in here that if you compare to NFT, the NFT is just you can say empty token backed with smart contract. But in Ordinals, even though it's a BRC 20 token, even though it's some kind of a JB inscription. They are always the same satoshis so it is still the same bitcoin as bitcoin. So that is like very awesome thing about it. And yeah, I know there's two camps myself, I am in the camp who is ruling for it because always the new innovation on technology is always a good thing and I of course understand this so called lazerize aspect of it, but in my opinion, which I feel very strongly, is that bitcoin need something like this. For example, we go some years forward and every single halving, everybody knows that in every halving, the mining fees, the mining rewards cuts in a half.

13:06

Esko

So that is not sustainable. So the order to bitcoin to prevail, to stay sustainable, it needs to be a profitable business. So like Nadja said earlier, that mining fees are going spiking up and that is incentive to mine it after you don't have like this kind of a big block rewards, you need to have something for minus to get profit on. That's why it's just no brainer for me that you just need something like this for bitcoin.

13:48

Jeremiah

Yeah, that's really good answer from Esko. Yeah, the main difference for me is like, yeah, that's 100% on chain. So if we just look like our art NFT projects, in other changes like on Ethereum, you are not basically owning the art, you just own the ownership. So the NFT just proves the ownership for the art, but the art itself, it's in cloud service or in another third party service. And on bitcoin it's 100% on chain. So if it's in your wallet, it's yours. And what comes to consolidation for the bitcoin? Yeah, I don't know, because it's pretty widely known that bitcoin, it's not capable itself to be like the main currency of the world. It can be the base layer of money, but this kind of development like Ordinals will push the development of layer two on bitcoin and that's really bullish. I wouldn't be concerned about this.

15:29

Jeremiah

This just make bitcoin blocks much more scarce and the whole network more secure because people are putting more nodes to the network and overall making bitcoin just much more secure as money. That's my take on this.

15:51

Esko

Yeah, thank you so much. I think if I can add that when this all ordinal Hype started, there wasn't any tools to inscribe and make trades and do anything except discord. And for inscribing you would need to set up a full node. So I believe it was approximately about 10,000 nodes or something, which was put up just for people to start to inscribe. So that is all strengthening the Bitcoin network.

16:30

Nadja

Thank you so much for these insights. I want to, before we move on, just kind of capture a little bit more of the criticism so I can get your feedback on your view on this. So a lot of people are saying because Bitcoin originally has been meant for financial transactions, this pivot into what a lot of people who are critical of Bitcoin ordinal see as more frivolous use case says that it might impact Bitcoin's functionality as a currency. So what are your thoughts on the current expression of Bitcoin ordinals that mostly are related to meme coins and how is that going to translate into a wider global adoption of Bitcoin in future? In the sense that many people don't think of Bitcoin as NFTs or as meme coins, but rather a more serious use case, whether that is transactions with Lightning network or whether that is as a coin that holds transactional value and also long term investment value.

17:37

Esko

Yeah, I think that this progress, what is now on Bitcoin will not stay as EDs like Jeremiah said, and there will be like layer twos. For example, before ordinals I didn't myself get a very good clue. Why do we need Litecoin or stacks? And now I'm just like, wow, okay, the stacks is like polygon to ethereum. But considering the currency situation, I think that for order to Bitcoin be the currency traded currency of the world, it needs to have a lot of transactions and the ordinals is stress testing it quite nicely. And to be frank, in some case the Bitcoin is a little bit failing with that because now we see that we have little bit more activity in the blocks so everything like fees goes crazy. And what will happen when all people are using it as a currency. So this is like the best stress test for that.

19:10

Esko

Also like for adoption, this is very good for adoption of Bitcoin because I think the narrative for it be like mainly only invented for the b and a currency. I think that is also proven to be wrong. I don't know if anybody has followed the Twitter and it has come up that in fact, the first purchase done with Bitcoin wasn't this pizzas, it was picture, it was a chay back and even Satoshi helped affiliate that. So debate that it was only vented to be as a currency. I think it's not 100% accurate, but I think of course the currency is very good that we have this kind of a secure network for that. But also which is equally important as is why also Michael Saylor is bullish for ordinals. Let's say that you will have inheritance, like $1 billion inheritance. Where do you want to store that paper, that data?

20:34

Esko

Do you want to store it in some vault or do you want to store it as inscription in the most badass ledger that you can find in the world? So I think that these two can coexist very easily.

21:02

Nadja

Jeremiah, would you like to add to that a very interesting take Esko on the idea that this is a stress test for Bitcoin. So Jeremiah, if you want to go a little bit more into that, I would love to hear some more insights as to how this can actually be a positive endeavor for the entire bitcoin ecosystem to be able to act as a stress test.

21:28

Jeremiah

Yeah, a good question. Yeah, let's just fill that network as much as monkey pictures and sheet coins and let's check. Does it go broke? But I don't know. Yeah, I don't know if I have anything to add because I'm so 100% sure that a bitcoin will never go broken and this development just make it stronger and speed up the layer to development, which is needed if we want to use bitcoin as a base layer of money. Yeah, that's my take. The base layer, the core, the bitcoin, it doesn't have to be more scalable. The scalability comes from layer two. Just like 50 years ago, when we have gold in reserve currency, the cash was the layer two, basically. And now the layer two are lightning network or stack or whatever there is coming. Yeah, that's my take on this.

23:11

Nadja

I'm curious, we have spoken a little bit about the future of Bitcoin as a result of ordinals, but how do you see Bitcoin ordinals impacting the broader NFT market? So obviously we've seen now this pivot from NFTs on other chains and suddenly they're popping out on Bitcoin at the same time. We've heard a lot of talk about NFTs being dead. So it's always interesting to see the confluence of all of these rumors of everything in the web3 industry being dead, and then the next day it's in a new environment where two ideas are merged together. So how do you see Bitcoin ordinals impacting the Future of NFTs, which may or may not be dead? I mean, as the future of the show, as the host of the show at least, I definitely don't think that NFTs are dead by any means. But yeah, it's always when a new technology or a new application of a technology comes in, there's of course a lot of criticism, but there's also a lot of opportunity.

24:15

Nadja

So I'm curious what your thoughts are on this.

24:18

Esko

Yeah, my thought exactly, that we are not dead yet. Yeah, that is excellent question and I think and what we are also seeing now, that in the future, the most valuable collections, well, valuable projects would want to be on Bitcoin layer one because it's harder to inscribe, it's more expensive to inscribe, and that of course adds almost always value to the collection. So I think that we will see that, like now, big brands, Bugatti, Yuga labs are transitioning to ordinals and we have also see that Ordinals collections are flipping NFTs on ethereum like left and right. So I think it was just bitcoin frocks that flipped. Yuga labs, so the hype is there but I think that these two also will coexist. Like there's a lot of projects, I see a lot of digots in the audience shout out to digots awesome project like they have made nice transition to Bitcoin and really started to be like one of the leading collections in there.

25:55

Esko

So we are seeing now that lots of big collections are giving one to one NFT to Ordinal side.

26:12

Jeremiah

Yeah, what comes that question is so frustrating when you hear that our NFT is dead. So I would like to be clear that NFTs are much more than just profile peak projects on the blockchain or community building or art. And commonly when we are speaking about NFTs or debt, I assume that we are just talking about the profile. Big projects, floor prices going down. And if that's the case, okay, then NFTs might be dead in a while at some chain and we are living in the cycles. But NFT as a tech, it's not going anywhere. And I believe it's going to be one of the biggest markets in human history. Something about ordinals more why we are so bullish on it just for the art aspects because yeah, it's on chain and it's more scarce. There is fixed amount of Ordinals what you can inscribe.

27:47

Jeremiah

There is just 21 million bitcoin as we know and that's why it is much more scarce. What else should I add? Yeah, maybe more about the NFT aspect. Are there debt? No, not at all, because basically they will, this is a broad question really do you have, Esko anything to add here?

28:37

Esko

Yeah, well I think I just said my mind and for what will the Ordinals do for the NFT market? I think it will be like I said like the go to place for big brands, big collections to even the artists to inscribe their art in the bitcoin layer one rather than smart contracts backed NFT.

29:21

Nadja

Yeah, I have a question that builds off of your previous answer. Obviously at the moment, a lot of the use cases for Bitcoin Ordinals that we are seeing are, as I said the meme coins and art and that sort of thing. But at the same time we have also seen NFTs in general and the concept of NFTs evolve from profile pictures and art to an entire range of applications. A lot of which obviously I cover on the show because it's so future forward and just game changing in terms of how people are using the NFT technology in order to build out solutions and applications for different things. So do you see that at some point the same would happen with Bitcoin ordinals that it would move beyond just art and beyond meme coins and also become a viable application for other industries to move into this space or do you think it would mostly stick to what we are seeing right now?

30:27

Esko

Yeah, 100%. And we are all already there. There is already DeFi platforms on Bitcoin which work with PSBT, like Partial Sign Bitcoin Transaction and you can put your ordinal inscription as a collateral and you can take Bitcoin loan. So it's already happening. Also like some gamify games are already happening. There is a project called BTC Machine which is I am very fond of that project, have minted that in the first wave and been with their journey from since the beginning. And they have done huge amount of Airdrop of Ordinals. They are building a game, they are building a Bitcoin metaverse. And what is cool that it is not possible yet, but it will be possible maybe tomorrow, maybe in a half year, six months, maybe in one year. But the amount of deaths that have now came to Bitcoin is insane because there is now really something to do.

31:51

Esko

Bitcoin is sexy now because you can make applications, you can make DeFi protocols, you can make games on it and it's just a matter of time that when everything this has happened, the audience was just the first step. We always need the first step in some innovation. So, like I said, that is already happening.

32:17

Jeremiah

Yeah, the development is happening already. DeFi is coming and I think the next bull market narrative will be Bitcoin DeFi. This is just my take and not financial advice or anything, but that's the narrative what I think we are heading right now. But mostly for now it's more just about art projects and building communities for now. But I think the development, everything that is happening on other changes are coming to Bitcoin as well.

33:16

Nadja

That's why I'm always so happy to have people on the show that are right there where things are happening, because that's amazing insights. I had no idea that so much was already being done on this side of things as well. I think what catches everyone's attention in the media are, as with most things in the Web3 space, just the same narrative over and over again. So I'm very happy to be speaking with you guys about this today. Jeremiah, I want to ask you in terms of the Launchpad that you are building, satoshi Pad, can you run us through what your experience has been so far? Obviously, you as a person, as an individual, have experience in other areas of Web3. How are you finding, for example, the Bitcoin Ordinals community as opposed to other communities in Web3? And also what has your experience been like actually building in the space specific to Bitcoin ordinals?

34:14

Jeremiah

Yeah, honestly, our problem is that we have just one developer and this space goes like a skyrocket, like all these BRC tokens and all the new stuff coming. It is really hard to catch the market all the time. How do I catch the community? So I'm many all of the groups thanks of Esko and I'm grinding on discord and getting there to communities and try to find projects which have not launched yet and that's what I do. But keeping up with the market, it's the hardest thing because I'm not a developer and we have just one developer. I think that's the hardest part to keep up the market. We are planning to build the BRC 20 Launchpad as well. But after this month when we have finished our ERL in real life company client, there is a lot of things going to happen. We are going to build marketplace at some point, but it just take a little bit more time than our competitors.

35:57

Nadja

I think you're touching on such an important point generally in the space in terms of how to stay updated with what is happening and how to make sure that you are there at the forefront of things. Esko, I want to ask this question of you especially, because it sounds like you are extremely on the forefront of the latest and greatest of what is happening in the space. How do you find that the community itself within the Bitcoin Ordinal space, does it differ from other communities within Web3, whether that's NFTs or Bitcoin directly itself or other chains and other layers? Do you find that there are differences within this community? Because obviously it's super early and for any one of us who've been in something early, whether it's in this industry especially or in other industries, we know that there's typically a different vibe going on.

36:52

Nadja

There's a lot more support, there's a lot more, let's say, openness to experiment that there might be in later stages. So can you tell me a little bit about your experience and how you are finding this specific community versus other communities in the Web3 space?

37:09

Esko

Yeah, Nadja, you are 100% right and I'm really happy that you ask this question. The community in Bitcoin on Ordinals is awesome. That is like only big work I can say about it because it's so new. Everybody are experimenting, everybody are inventing something, learning, educating each other and it's relatively small. The whole community, if you can say the whole ordinance community, is still relatively small. So the vibe discords are just insanely good because it is uncorrupt, yet it is still the launchpad for ideas. It is still so caring and loving of each other because there are no big players, there are no like this kind of a negativity yet it will come eventually when we grow. But at this point you can compare it as like how our communities were, when was NFT summer, when NFT just started booming? Everything was just like flowers and loving and hanging with each other and having fun, but it's not the case anymore.

38:53

Esko

And in Bitcoin and that is one of the biggest reasons that I am concentrating almost solely and mainly now to Ordinal side, just because it is so nice environment to be in the Web3 space at this moment.

39:19

Nadja

Yeah, absolutely lovely. I know that everyone who I've spoken to who came early to the NFT explosion had exactly the same thing to say. So I think for those in the audience, if you are not yet involved with the bitcoin ordinals ecosystem, even if you don't necessarily understand it, or even necessarily agree with it, definitely just this ability to be part of something, or even just to observe something being created in real time at a really early stage might be extremely valuable. Jeremiah, I don't know if you have anything to add to the question in terms of what your experience has been like with the Bitcoin Ordinals community.

40:05

Jeremiah

41:07

Nadja

Yeah. So I think if someone in the audience perhaps didn't know much of anything about bitcoin Ordinals at the start of the show and the interest might be peaked 45 minutes in, what advice would you give someone who is interested in getting started? Now, this might be as a developer, this might be as a community member, as an investor, many different layers of involvement. Of course, in the web3 space, there are always so many opportunities to get involved with something that interests you irrespective of your experience, irrespective of your skill set. So do you have some general advice on how people can get started introducing themselves to this technology as well as getting involved with the community?

42:02

Esko

Yeah, the easiest way, of course, is to pick up few good oral influencers, few good projects and start with them go wipe in their discord. Pretty basically the same as in NFT general. Of course, I don't want to give any financial advice, but if wanted to start, I think, which I mentioned earlier, the Bitcoin machine, BTC machine, they have a very nice community, very active. I think they are biggest if you don't count wallets and marketplaces. I think they have like for individual projects, one of the biggest communities go and wipe with them. All the communities have a good alpha groups in discord and yeah, basically just wipe in the Twitter, wipe in the discord. And as for developer, I am almost certain that if you are developer, just pick. A project and try that. Can I please join you? And you will be like most welcomed and if somebody can hit me up I don't know if anybody have noticed this, but I just today created my Twitter account for this.

43:39

Esko

I have like this kind of degen and dox twitter account and if somebody have been in ordinals I'm sure you see me why being in Twitter but like that is on dox. But if somebody wants to contact me and ask more questions about which direction to go, which communities, I'm always you can give me Twitter, DM or in LinkedIn however you want. I'm very happy to help.

44:14

Jeremiah

Yeah, I don't know. I have the same advice. If you have been on a theorem network or any other chain, the best option is just to set up a wallet. That's really easy. It's like setting up a MetaMask, top up some bitcoin and explore the marketplaces and get the deep dive for the communities and start with that. If you have anything to ask, just DM us. I can provide all the websites and people who follow on Twitter and stuff like that. So DMs are always open to curious people.

45:11

Nadja

I love that. That's absolutely amazing, guys. Thank you so much for your generosity. I think that's always such an embodiment of the space as people willing to help others and not because they're trying to gain, but really just because we're trying to build a community. So thank you so much for that very generous offer to our community. Speaking of community, if I for example am a project, I mean, you've spoken previously about different projects pivoting into a bitcoin ordinals. So, If I'm a project and let's say I already have an existing NFT collection or some sort of web3 adoption that I'm building for my product on another chain or another layer. So how would you advise me to get into bitcoin ordinals would you advise me to start with a community first, kind of work my way in through there? Should I build it and they will come?

46:08

Nadja

What is your general advice for projects that are already building something but might want to either add to what they are doing with bitcoin ordinals or alternatively really move away from where they currently are and move into the space?

46:23

Esko

Yeah, I think good option is that if you have existing project like add value for your holders, let's say you have a collection in an empty site, just drop the collection on the BRC side and boom, you have your community of X amount of people to on the bitcoin. Of course it is so different. So I cannot see that at this point. There are really a lot of transitioning from, let's say from ethereum to bitcoin regarding the protocols, because we are in so early stages that really if you want to build something, you need to focus on that 100%. So these are two so different kind of worlds right now. So I think if you order to do something new on bitcoin. So I think that is my advice.

47:34

Jeremiah

Yeah, I'm with Esko. It's that I'm not sure. It depends which kind of project you have at the moment on EVM chains because I'm not sure if the Ordinals people are willing to leave from Ordinals to other chains. I don't know what is your goal and how big is your collection? What Esko said, maybe you can award your current holders or community with exclusive ordinance collection or something like that. But my advice or my take on this, if you want to expand your community to bitcoin, then just create another collection between collection and mean some BRC tokens and share them to the Ordinals because the biggest marketing and cheapest marketing at this point together community and players to your discord is BRC 20 tokens. That's my take.

48:59

Nadja

I think. Just to add on to this question regarding projects and kind of wanting to go in or dip a toe at least into this new world, this brave new world, are there any special legal or regulatory considerations that users or projects should be aware of in terms of bitcoin ordinals that might be different from what is currently out there? I don't know. In terms of the on the ground chatter or of course regulators will take quite a bit of time to get to this, but are there any areas of bitcoin ordinals that you envision might become a special focus for regulators?

49:45

Esko

Well, I don't think so because it's the same laws apply. Like we are the same web3, same cryptocurrency. So I don't see any different I don't see why there would be any different regulations. What I can see, of course this is just speculation of Ordinals degen, inscription degen, but let's say that there is a lot of talk about that you might just ban Ethereum, that just the bitcoin would be like the only accepted cryptocurrency by regular regulators. And this is kind of a very bullish use case even for Ordinals because if you compare to NFT, which works on Solana, which works on Ethereum and you name it. But like I said earlier, that Ordinals are exactly the same as exactly the same. Satoshi is exactly the same bitcoin as bitcoin. So in order to ban these BRC shitcoins or like eight pictures on bitcoin, you need to ban bitcoin.

51:16

Esko

So this is like very nice aspect to it.

51:23

Jeremiah

Yeah, not that nice aspect for regulators. Yeah, I don't know what will be the regulation aspect because it's open software protocol. Anybody can do whatever they want there. Don't make an art collection which is already at some other change. That's my advice. There's been cases, people have been created, buy a collection on bitcoin and now of course, it's 100% on chain and it's there the rest of universe. It's not going anywhere. It's always on the chain. But you cannot then list them on exchanges. So it has done pretty hardly to then trade or sell them. But yeah, don't do anything illegal. That's my advice.

52:33

Esko

Yeah, there was a case with generally.

52:36

Nadja

My advice, don't do anything illegal. Please continue.

52:41

Esko

There was a case, recent case with Yuga labs, I think it was, correct me if I'm wrong, Jeremiah. It was bit monkeys, bit apes, which was like exactly the same copy of Bora tapes. So the Yuga lab shut that down. So they unlisted from several exchanges. Don't do that. And that's not cool. Don't do that.

53:17

Nadja

Guys, thank you so much for all of your insights today. I see the questions have been coming in. So while I just quickly select a question, can you maybe end off with parting thoughts? If the audience walks away with one message today, what should that be?

53:38

Esko

Be curious. With the new innovation. Look what the big guys are doing. Look what the Michael Saylor’s Binance launching the new marketplaces. Don't listen to what surroundings may tell you that this is a fad or something. Just look what the big money and look what the big players are doing, in what direction they are going. And make your own opinion. That is it here to stay or not?

54:23

Jeremiah

Yeah. Trend is your friend. That's my take on this, set up wallet. Explore the place. Yeah, as always.

54:42

Nadja

So I have a question here from Fraudger. That's a very cool username. Will the fascination with meme coins ever go away?

54:54

Esko

No. Memes are here to stay. I don't think so. It is culture. It is part of our culture now. Of course, when the cultural movement will change, maybe then. But as long as it's funny, as long as it's used every day, like meme cultures are not going anywhere.

55:27

Jeremiah

Yeah, I go with Esko. Memes are here to stay. Yeah, there could be way more or less meme coins. But hey, it's an open market. You can create a BRC 20 token in 22nd and I think they're still coming in the future as well. But it's good and it's bad. Someone lose money. But on the other hand, it brings a lot of newcomers and people into market and explore the web3 and that's good.

56:09

Nadja

I'm going to pick one final question, mostly because I 100% agree with this. On any given day, on any given topic, I want to learn more, but I don't have a lot of time to be on groups. What is the quickest way to learn?

56:28

Esko

That is a great question. If you don't have time to be on the groups, well, I don't know. What do you want to learn? Do you want to learn which project to invest or in general? If like in general. Quickest way to learn, Lil, because me and Jeremiah, you can check us on in the LinkedIn if just in general want to know what's happening in the space, if there's something big happening. We are always posting the newest updates on LinkedIn, but if you are talking about the general aspect of investing, then I think just pick some good influencers. Influencers and take off from their notifications in Twitter and do what they do, Esko.

57:37

Nadja

On that note, I saw another question here where someone was asking which influencer should I follow. So maybe you can answer that one as well.

57:45

Esko

Yeah, I think the most influential guy is Leonidas, so I think his Twitter is also like Leonidas, so follow Leonidas hop on his spaces. I think he's doing like 700 spaces in years, so he's always hosting some spaces. So that is like the great way to start.

58:19

Jeremiah

Yeah, that was good from my take. Yeah, make some time and set up the wallet and buy something and that's it. I think that's the quickest way to learn anything. You can read as much as you want, but taking some action will get you the better learning.

58:45

Nadja

There's no education like experience. Right? So guys, we've come to the end of the hour. Thank you so much for this fascinating competition. Not competition. What am I even talking about? Conversation. Thank you for sharing your time and your expertise with us. I think that definitely the members of the audience have learned a lot, even if it just means that they've learned that there's a whole other world that they don't know about. And for those of you who have joining, who were joining us today, thank you so much for gifting us an hour of your time. I hope that you enjoy spending it with our amazing guests each weeks just as much as we love having you here. And I think, as was said many times over this hour, stay curious, keep exploring, and continue to dive into the entire realm of NFTs because there's just so much out there.

59:35

Nadja

Whatever it is that you're into, whatever it is that you're hoping to achieve, there are so many people out there doing things that you can learn from, that you can get inspired from, whether this is bitcoin ordinals or anything else in the web3 and NFT space. So join us again next week for another episode of The Future of NFTs, brought to you by AdLunam. Cheers, guys. Have a wonderful day.

59:57

Esko

Cheers. Thanks. Cheers.

59:58

Jeremiah

Thank you, Nadja. Thanks, everybody participating for this.