Welcome back stitchers! Today Lisa welcomes Dr. Joy Harden Bradford of Therapy for Black Girls to discuss her new book 'Sisterhood Heals' and the journey of creating it. She explains how the book captures the spirit of an in-person event focused on conversations about sisterhood and challenges us to be better to and for one another. Dr. Joy emphasizes the importance of sisterhood as a vibrant life force for Black women and the need to navigate the challenges that come with it. The conversation urges us to evolve as advocates for one another, emphasizing the pivotal role sisterhood plays as a life force for Black women and delving into the challenges inherent in this potent bond. We journey through insights on building resilient communities, managing disappointments, and embracing the therapeutic power of creative expression. The dialogue pivots towards the significance of Therapy for Black Girls, highlighting the importance of embracing growth and the transformative power of the therapeutic process. The episode concludes with a powerful focus on actionable steps and the perpetual journey of nurturing sisterhood in our lives. Join us for a riveting conversation guided by the wisdom and warmth of Dr. Joy Harden Bradford.

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Dr. Joy Harden Bradford

Dr. Joy Harden Bradford is a Licensed Psychologist and the host of the wildly popular, award-winning mental health podcast Therapy for Black Girls. Her work focuses on making mental health topics more relevant and accessible for Black women, and she delights in using pop culture to illustrate psychological concepts. Named by Glamour as a Game Changer for her work in the mental health field, she received her Bachelor’s degree in Psychology from Xavier University of Louisiana, her Master’s degree in Vocational Rehabilitation Counseling from Arkansas State, and her PhD in Counseling Psychology from the University of Georgia. Her work has been featured in Essence, Oprah Daily, The New York Times, HuffPost, Black Enterprise, and Women’s Health. Dr. Joy lives in Atlanta, Georgia, with her husband and two sons.

Purchase Sisterhood Heals

Instagram: @therapyforblackgirls

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Lisa Woolfork is an associate professor of English specializing in African American literature and culture. Her teaching and research explore Black women writers, Black identity, trauma theory, and American slavery. She is the founder of Black Women Stitch, the sewing group where Black lives matter. She is also the host/producer of Stitch Please, a weekly audio podcast that centers on Black women, girls, and femmes in sewing. In the summer of 2017, she actively resisted the white supremacist marches in her community, Charlottesville, Virginia. The city became a symbol of lethal resurging white supremacist violence. She remains active in a variety of university and community initiatives, including the Community Engaged Scholars program. She believes in the power of creative liberation.

Instagram: Lisa Woolfork

Twitter: Lisa Woolfork

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Hey everybody and welcome to the Stitch

Please podcast.

2

I'm your host, Lisa Woolfork.

3

And as I say every week, this is a very

special episode, but for real, for real,

4

this one is like, for real, for real

special, because I am talking with none

5

other than the Dr.

6

Joy Harden Bradford, a licensed clinical

psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia, who has

7

created a platform that not only saves us,

but helps us save ourselves.

8

And has-

9

rooted such a gorgeous community in what

feels like freedom, that it is a blessing

10

to start this year and to start this, I

don't know, this season of our lives with

11

the book that Dr.

12

Joy has brought into the world, Sisterhood

Heals.

13

Welcome Dr.

14

Joy to the Stitch Please podcast.

15

Oh, thank you so much, Lisa.

16

I love a beautiful introduction.

17

Well, it was easy to do because you have

created something that is like a fountain.

18

It's a book, but it's not a book to be

read.

19

It is a book to be savored.

20

It is a book to be read and reread that

even in preparing for the interview, I

21

went back and it was like I was in

graduate school again.

22

I got all these tabs and underlines and

highlights and questions and...

23

arrows.

24

And it was because the book took me

through a journey.

25

And I wanted to start our conversation

today with how you, in terms of

26

formulating the book or the idea for the

book, what was the first step for you in

27

that journey?

28

So Lisa, I don't know if you've heard this

story before, but Sisterhood Heals was

29

actually designed to be an in-person

experience.

30

So the community had been asking for like

an in-person activity or like a conference

31

kind of thing.

32

And so we were planning to do that in

33

And then of course we know what happened

34

Right, right.

35

So we were hoping, so Sisterhood Heals was

the name of what the event was going to

36

be.

37

And so of course, after we were in the

pandemic, I had a conversation with my

38

literary agent about, well, what were you

planning to cover that weekend?

39

Like, what did you want that weekend to be

about?

40

And so through conversations with her, it

actually became the outline for the book.

41

So the book really is kind of a...

42

It follows an outline of what I wanted to

have happen that weekend, but not closely,

43

right?

44

Cause clearly all that's in the book could

not have been covered in a weekend, but it

45

really kind of captures the spirit of what

I would have liked to have happened in

46

that in-person event, which is

conversations about sisterhood, a

47

celebration of who we are to one another,

but also some gentle challenges about how

48

we could be better to and for one another.

49

And I'm so glad you explained that because

it helps me to better understand why the

50

book feels so enveloping.

51

It feels as though when my reading

experience was one of feeling as if I was

52

being held.

53

There were so many points where you were

able to direct our attention to how Black

54

women

55

and sisterhood itself became a necessary

strategy, a necessary thing for our own,

56

not just survival, but thriving.

57

And you don't shy away from the difficult

things.

58

And I will, I want to get to that in the

course of this conversation, but I want to

59

just look really quickly, y'all, on page,

on page XV, that's page 15 in the.

60

Roman numerals as part of the delightful

introduction.

61

I'm gonna do a terrible job reading this

because I am not Dr.

62

Joy.

63

But she talks about sisterhood as such a

vibrant life force for black women.

64

It is sacred and as such it is important

for us to pay attention to the things that

65

make it difficult and do a better job of

navigating those challenges so that it can

66

continue to be what we need to get through

the world together.

67

And it's that even that one sentence just

made me feel like

68

I am in good hands.

69

I knew that already.

70

But there was something about that

sentence.

71

Can you talk a bit about how the

transformation from you wanted this to be

72

an event, but it also feels like it's such

a beautiful, almost consolidation of the

73

Therapy for Black Girls project as a

whole, that even if, you know, even though

74

the event was canceled, it's like this

is...

75

a component of that or a giant, a platform

for that or like, I don't know.

76

It's just feels like a, it's a reason that

this book feels like an event.

77

It feels like an event.

78

It feels like a multifaceted party.

79

I'm laughing one minute, I'm boohooing the

next.

80

And, you know, asking myself the same

questions all along.

81

I'm like, oh my gosh, she got shushed off

the back porch too, because she got

82

discovered mind and grown people's

business.

83

Like these little things.

84

that happened to us, that we just don't, I

don't know, that none of this is in

85

isolation.

86

So can you talk just a bit about the angle

of the whole project that you've created

87

and how you're helping us to hold one

another, both in accountability and love?

88

Yeah.

89

So I think, you know, the book cannot be

divorced from the time at which I wrote

90

it, which was in the pandemic, right?

91

And so, you know, while sisterhood has

been important and I do really feel like

92

has been the foundation of all the things

that we have done at Therapy for Black

93

Girls, it feels like at the time I was

writing the book, we were all kind of in a

94

tizzy, right?

95

Like we didn't really know what was

happening, you know, everything felt

96

really anxious.

97

But even in that, there were so many

beautiful examples of sisters stepping up

98

for one another, right?

99

So there were no shortage of, you know,

GoFundMe's and people going to get

100

medicine for sisters in their neighborhood

and like doing Zoom daycare sessions with

101

the kids in the neighborhood.

102

Like just all of these ways that we

already knew that Black women typically

103

show up for one another, we were seeing in

real time.

104

And I think it became more magnified

because

105

at the same time, we were also seeing all

these systems that I think maybe many of

106

us thought would be there to save us.

107

We realized that like we really are all we

got, right?

108

Like when we say like we all we got, I

think the pandemic really showed us that

109

in real time.

110

And so the book really is, I think, an

attempt.

111

I always say an attempt to give language

to that thing that I think often feels

112

really hard to give language to.

113

that happens between Black women, right?

114

Like we kind of know it, I think, you

know, in some ways, but it has often felt

115

intangible and like really difficult to

put into words.

116

But I really felt like it was important

for there to be words, right?

117

Like as a psychologist, I know that this

thing that happens with Black women is

118

something that needs to be documented,

that there needs to be some kind of

119

theory, some kind of language, some kind

of like, okay, if it's in a book.

120

then I can point to this as actual and

factual.

121

And so the book really is an attempt to

kind of give some grounding and to give

122

some language to this thing that I think

we often do so naturally, but also again,

123

an invitation to how we can lean more into

sisterhood to be a healing space for us.

124

I am so moved by this because in many

ways, the story of Black Women's Stitch is

125

the story of Sisterhood Heals.

126

It is the story of recovery from racial

justice organizing and white supremacist

127

terrorism and all of these things.

128

And for me, as someone who was reading it,

I just felt like even though I did not

129

have this book at the time of that

experience,

130

it was about three years after you founded

Therapy for Black Girls, that I do have

131

this experience.

132

And it just mapped on so beautifully that

it made me realize that what you've

133

created is equipping.

134

It is a resource.

135

And so I thank you for...

136

You know, you talk just a bit about the

citational practice.

137

Someone needs to cite this book or someone

needs to refer to it or whatever, but it

138

also needs to exist as an affirmation and

a guide and a sign of possibility.

139

And that's another like really powerful

element of this work.

140

I love how you bridge, um, press fact and

fiction.

141

You know, I really love the series that

you did on Insecure.

142

And if you were team Issa or team Molly

and working through their relationships.

143

And I think it was also pandemic time,

perhaps, because a lot of us, I just felt

144

like I finally got into Insecure after

that and was very much invested in this

145

friendship.

146

Like I knew these girls.

147

Like, I don't know, how they gonna figure

this out?

148

And why would she say that?

149

Oh my God, you know, like really invested.

150

But I think it also becomes a platform for

how we can work out some issues ourselves.

151

Can you talk a bit about why you like to

use popular culture or why you thought

152

Insecure was a good vehicle to discuss

these things?

153

Mm-hmm.

154

You know, I think, Lisa, pop culture just,

well, one, I spend a lot of time watching

155

and reading and listening to stuff, so it

feels like a good way to, like, make use

156

of all these things that I'm spending time

doing.

157

But I think pop culture is often so

accessible, right?

158

Like, you know, so many people were

watching Intercure.

159

Like, we are all often watching and

listening to the same things.

160

And I think when you see themes like that

present on a screen like that, right, like

161

where we are following the story of these

people.

162

it makes it easy for you to kind of like

talk about the characters in a way that

163

like doesn't necessarily implicate you,

but you know that it has some implications

164

for your real life.

165

Right.

166

And so I think that storyline between

Molly and Issa was so impactful to a lot

167

of black women because it is one of the

only instances I can think of where we saw

168

like a friendship breakup that felt so

raw.

169

And I feel like there's been so many

conversations about breakups with friends

170

and like, that has just been kind of in

the ethos for the past couple of years.

171

And so I think when we saw it on Insecure,

it was just a beautiful way to kind of

172

talk about these things that often happen

with black women, but that maybe we didn't

173

have examples for, or like, oh, you're not

supposed to talk about that in public,

174

right?

175

And so being able to use the story of

these characters really made it easy to

176

kind of dissect like, okay, what would you

do in this example and who was wrong here?

177

And how would you take accountability?

178

culture gives us a lens and an end to be

able to talk about maybe some more

179

difficult things without it being talking

about us.

180

And I agree with that so much.

181

And it also, even if we step back and look

at Insecure itself, the idea of being

182

something that we hadn't seen before,

because this is a black woman creating

183

this.

184

This is a black woman with a black team

and a black cast and a black photo

185

director, black lighting, someone who

knows how to light dark skin, black

186

people.

187

So we look gorgeous like we do in real

life.

188

I think that's another thing that made

Insecure a kind of cultural property, but

189

also a form of cultural affirmation, a

form of recognition that we can see our

190

lives.

191

You know, the ridiculous friend, I think

it was this really hilarious line, I'm not

192

sure if it was Issa's brother said to

Kelly, do you listen to yourself?

193

And she said, yeah, I got a podcast.

194

Yes.

195

Right, right.

196

of course I listened to myself.

197

Like it just all felt so familiar and how

we deserve that, that even the show itself

198

is a sign of sisterhood, a sign of

sisterhood, a sisterhood heals.

199

I wonder if we could talk a little bit

about some of the ways that we can build

200

community.

201

I thought that, I think that's something

that a lot of people are very interested

202

in.

203

I consider Black Women's Stitch a

community and trying to, you know, to

204

cultivate this and to grow and to develop

events and to do all these other elements.

205

How do you, how do you advise folks who

are looking to find community, to help, to

206

build it, to help ask the questions, to

find folks of common interest?

207

How do you advise us to work on building

community?

208

Do we activate what we already have or

what we think we have?

209

How do we get started?

210

Mm-hmm.

211

Yeah, I mean, if there is something around

you, then I definitely would encourage you

212

to activate what's already there, because

I think sometimes we make the mistake of

213

like going out to look for something that

is already kind of around.

214

So I typically encourage people to look at

the foreground of their lives.

215

because there could be people already in

the foreground that with a little bit of

216

work, you could bring to the, I mean, look

in the background to bring them to the

217

foreground, right?

218

So maybe there's a mom that you see in the

carpool line, or there's somebody who sits

219

next to you in yoga, right?

220

Like, can you take the step to say like,

hey, can we grab a smoothie after class?

221

Or hey, do you wanna get breakfast after

we drop the kids off, right?

222

Like sometimes it requires us to take some

steps.

223

that we may feel a little uncomfortable

about, right?

224

Cause nobody wants to be rejected.

225

But if you want to get something

different, then sometimes you have to make

226

different choices.

227

So I definitely would encourage that.

228

But I also think that social media is just

a beautiful way to like tap into the

229

things that you're interested in, right?

230

So just like you have.

231

Black women stitch.

232

I mean, like I have therapy for black

girls.

233

Like there's so many communities and

things that black women have created and

234

kind of offered to us that anything that

you are interested in, you are likely able

235

to find a black woman who has started some

kind of community or some kind of thing

236

for other people who like those things to

also be a part of.

237

And so just spending a little bit of time

searching on Instagram through hashtags

238

and stuff like that, or Facebook groups

can be a great way for you to kind of just

239

meet other people that are interested in

the kinds of things that you are.

240

I love that.

241

I think that is so rich and it also lets

us to kind of look around, like you said,

242

where we are, the things we're already

doing, and look in a different direction.

243

It doesn't require like a radical life

revamp in order to do these things.

244

I was thinking about, you do such a

wonderful job of setting up scenarios that

245

allow us to think about, huh, what would I

do?

246

And...

247

This is a question that came up because as

I was reading, there was a group of

248

friends and they were very much team, no

new friend.

249

And then a new friend brought one of their

friends around.

250

And then like the woman was like, I don't

know if I even want to go around with

251

these people cause why she got to come

out?

252

I don't even know her like that and da da.

253

And you did such a wonderful job

explaining about how the friend who

254

brought the new friend in could have, you

know, maybe give some, give some people

255

some heads up, just to say, hey.

256

you know, I want to kind of bring her or I

don't know.

257

I just, I love how you don't shy away from

these problems because it somehow, it

258

feels like if you have problems in your

relationships or in your friendships, your

259

relationships are broken or wrong.

260

What does it mean to help us see and

identify these troubles and how to develop

261

ways through them?

262

Yeah, you know, Lisa, I think that we are

far too quick to kind of like cut people

263

off, or like you said, to think that if

anything's trouble, that means this

264

relationship is not worth it, right?

265

But the truth of it is that we are all

human.

266

We're not robots as magical as black girls

or we're not actually superhuman, right?

267

And so that means we bring in all of our

baggage, all of our stuff, all of our

268

history.

269

We're bringing all of that to our

relationships with one another.

270

And I think that we could do a better job

of offering grace.

271

to one another and not shying away from

the difficult conversations.

272

Like the first sign of trouble does not

mean that the relationship needs to end.

273

It may just be an opportunity for you to

say like, ouch, this thing hurt and can we

274

talk about it?

275

Right, so that example of, you know, no

new friends and like somebody works with

276

somebody and they're like, oh, I think my

girls would love you.

277

I'll bring you to happy hour.

278

Well, you gotta give people a heads up

about that, right?

279

Because...

280

Who is this person and why is she here in

our sacred space, right?

281

You know, and so I don't think that it is

the case of them not necessarily wanting

282

to maybe get to know her, but it's the

fact that you didn't really set her up for

283

success, right?

284

So could you say, hey, there's this cool

girl that I work with, I'd love to be able

285

to invite her in two weeks, I think you

all would enjoy her.

286

And then giving them the opportunities to

say like, oh yeah, sure, bring her or.

287

know about that, right?

288

And then you'll all can have a

conversation about it.

289

But if you take away people's option to

actually have a conversation about it,

290

then you are making it less likely that

they are going to welcome her kind of into

291

the fold.

292

And I think, of course, you are so right.

293

I think this whole interview could just be

like, yeah, you're right, mm-hmm, yes.

294

And then just repeat that over and over.

295

I don't have to say any other, no

transition's necessary.

296

The answer is always Dr.

297

Joyce obviously right, gosh.

298

But I think it's the discomfort and the

idea that when you talk about sacred and

299

thinking of sisterhood as sacred, there

are some ways that...

300

Some want a sacred experience that is also

trouble free.

301

And that sacred doesn't necessarily mean

that, you know?

302

And that when you have something that is

so, well, maybe I can ask you to talk a

303

little bit about that.

304

How does the sanctity or the sacredness of

a sisterly space or accommodate challenge

305

or difficulty or expansion or contraction?

306

Like, how does that?

307

show up and maintain that sacredness,

because it seems as though it's made

308

sacred by the people who are

participating.

309

It doesn't just exist sacredness by

itself.

310

So I would love to hear more about that.

311

Yeah, I honestly think that the ability to

withstand some discomfort and challenge is

312

what makes it sacred and what adds to the

sanctity, right?

313

So I think in sisterhood, it is one of

those places where we can kind of practice

314

being the more prickly, what I call

prickly versions of ourselves, right?

315

So those parts of ourselves that

316

We don't even want to admit the parts that

we know we can be a little clingy or we

317

can be a little annoying or whatever.

318

Like our relationships with other black

women are often where we can kind of

319

practice what that behavior feels like to

other people and then to maybe get some

320

feedback about, hey, that's kind of

annoying when you do that, but that

321

doesn't mean I don't love you still,

right?

322

And so I think that being able to kind of

be all of who we are in relationships with

323

other sisters is what really allows for

that sacredness, right?

324

I can be all of who I am and I may

aggravate people, I may annoy people, they

325

may even be mad at me, but that doesn't

mean they don't love me.

326

And so I think that it's a good sign when

there's conflict, right?

327

That means that people are invested enough

to disagree with you, right?

328

If it is only a situation where you're

always agreeing and everything is hunky

329

dory, so to speak, then is there really

space for growth in that kind of a

330

relationship?

331

That's so powerful because I think

wholeness is an essential part for me of

332

liberation.

333

It's too often that black women find our

lives fragmented into either our roles,

334

like a wife, mom, professional, whatever.

335

But also...

336

Just the things that impact the,

patriarchy, for example, damages us as

337

women.

338

White supremacy damages us as black

people.

339

These things that show up, and it's really

difficult to shoulder the burden of it, or

340

to thrive through it if you aren't whole.

341

And so the idea of us bringing our

wholeness to each other.

342

I think that's another one of the elements

of the sacredness.

343

And I do love how the book, Sisterhood

Heals, advocates for us to be made whole

344

through one another.

345

And you have this beautiful, I think it's

a line from Gwendolyn Brooks, and as she

346

talks about we are each other's harvest,

we are each other's business, we are each

347

other's magnitude and bond.

348

Y'all read y'all some Gwendolyn Brooks.

349

She's one of my favorites.

350

Read Maude Martha.

351

I'll put a link in the chat.

352

It's a novella.

353

You gotta read it.

354

It's like her only novella.

355

She wanted to pull it.

356

Anyway, back to track.

357

Can you talk about, can you tell us a bit

about what it means to be each other's

358

magnitude?

359

Like that, you know, we are each other's

burden and magnitude.

360

There was something about the gravity of

magnitude as a word there that I think

361

your book.

362

really reflects.

363

It reflects a magnitude.

364

Can you share a little bit about what you

think that quote means and why you used it

365

to start that section of the work?

366

Mm-hmm.

367

Well, one, I just love that quote.

368

That is also one of my favorites.

369

And I think it's so true, right?

370

Like, I think that there is no denying,

like, the power that happens when Black

371

women come together.

372

And so this idea that we kind of need to

operate in silos and like, OK, you do your

373

stuff over there and I do my stuff over

here.

374

Like, we don't get anywhere further.

375

if we are not actually invested in each

other's health, each other's wellness,

376

each other's lives, and we know that we go

further together.

377

And so this idea that we need to be

separate and not actually kind of

378

involving ourselves with each other, I

think is not accurate.

379

And we know that is not historically how

we have survived, right?

380

There is a reason there is such a rich

history of black women's relationships

381

with one another.

382

And I don't think that if it's not broke,

383

then we don't need to fix it, right?

384

And so how can we continue with this rich

history of really being able to show up

385

with one another, show up for one another,

especially again, in light of all these

386

systems that are not actually working in

our favors, right?

387

Like there is just so much work left to be

done, so much care that needs to be given.

388

And I think that we are the only ones in a

lot of ways who are equipped to be able to

389

do that with and for one another.

390

And I think in thinking about some of the

responsibilities, I wonder if we could

391

talk a little bit about some of those, the

challenges.

392

And I think part of it is you do such a

beautiful job talking about our cultural

393

conditioning, the ways that black women

are, many of us have, I speak for myself,

394

a certain type of loyalty.

395

a certain type of belief that we don't

want to do anything because of our

396

corporate identity, the group identity.

397

I think you used the word for it that I

don't think I ever knew before that talk

398

about how black women, or black people in

general don't want to make the race look

399

bad.

400

Or, like if one person does something

good, it's like, oh, good for that one

401

person.

402

But if one of us does something bad, it's

all of us.

403

And so I'm wondering like how...

404

we get past that toward the healing to be

able to say, as you said, this is

405

difficult or this is painful, or when we

feel disappointed, when we feel

406

disappointed in our sisters, when we feel

like you're not someone who's interested

407

in community, you think of community as a

commodity.

408

And now, you had that wonderful story

about that poor woman who had really loved

409

this woman, this sister, and admired her

work, and just had some questions about

410

her 9999 program that she was selling.

411

And the lady went off on her and then took

her post as an example.

412

And this why y'all ain't going to never

make no money, because you don't want to

413

pay nothing.

414

You know, like, OK, girl, now I'm really

glad I paused on that.

415

But.

416

ha ha.

417

about how do we handle our disappointments

or even being very frustrated at the

418

honeypot lady when she changed the formula

for the wash or whatever, these kinds of

419

things that we invest so much and then

sometimes we get disappointed.

420

How do you advise us to kind of get to go

through that or to manage that?

421

Yeah, so I think we have to first be okay

with honoring the disappointment, right?

422

Because I think what often happens is that

we feel these feelings that feel shameful,

423

right?

424

Like, oh, I shouldn't feel that way about

another black woman, but it's okay.

425

Like, feelings are just information,

right?

426

So it's okay to feel however you're

feeling.

427

What really is the issue, though, is then

what do you do with those feelings, right?

428

So we can allow for space to be

disappointed and to check in with

429

ourselves.

430

I think about...

431

what's actually coming up for me in this

moment, right?

432

Because while it looks like it is about

the honeypot challenge or changing the

433

formula, what is, if you dig a little

deeper, we're not really still talking

434

about a cleaner.

435

Now we're talking about a sense of

betrayal or a sense of being abandoned or

436

left behind, right?

437

Like...

438

When we see these kinds of reactions that

are disproportionate to the thing that has

439

happened, usually there's an indication

that something else is going on.

440

And I think we can only get to that if we

are quiet and still and actually sit down

441

with ourselves to say, why am I

disappointed here?

442

And then what can I do about it, right?

443

So I typically think that like social

media posts and like going public with

444

these kinds of things are typically not at

least the first response.

445

Because you probably have not sat down

with yourself long enough to kind of work

446

through whatever is happening But going to

your trusted group chat or talking with a

447

therapist about it about what is coming up

for you can actually help you To kind of

448

figure out okay What needs to be happening

here and I think on the other side if you

449

are somebody who has seen community as a

commodity I think you also need to check

450

yourself to kind of think about

451

how you are weaponizing this thing that we

know black women readily and loyally kind

452

of give, right, like we will ride into the

wheels fall off for a black woman's

453

business.

454

But does that mean then as the business

owner, you get to discard this community

455

when they are of no use to you anymore,

right?

456

Like I think as a black woman who is

building a business that is like catering

457

to black women, you do have a different

code of ethics.

458

I think that you just do because...

459

You can't want to use community when it is

in your advantage and then want to just,

460

you know, kind of discard the community

when they try to hold you accountable.

461

It's like, you can't have both.

462

So either make a product that everybody

can use.

463

And if the black girls get on, then fine,

but don't use us as a way to kind of build

464

your business and then say like, okay,

I've made my millions now.

465

Like I'm off to the next thing.

466

Like I think you do have a different level

of responsibility when you are building a

467

business that caters specifically to black

people.

468

I could not agree more because as you

said, that we have a certain type of, we

469

have a really strong loyalty, especially

to brand and products.

470

I was talking to my sister about this and

it's like, we use Tide because my mama

471

used Tide.

472

That's what we use.

473

And then she, Lord, then she switched to

Gain and it was a bit of a crisis.

474

And I was like, well, I guess now we use

Gain?

475

use game now.

476

Legit, we all, me and my sisters all use

game because mama started using game.

477

And clearly, I mean, who's not gonna do

what she's doing?

478

Like what?

479

So it was, I think that you're so right

about that.

480

I wanted to pivot to talk a bit about

creative liberation.

481

And this brings us back to some of the

sewing and crafts elements.

482

And as quiet as it's kept, you did sew

something.

483

You have sewn.

484

I'd love to know more if you have a

sewing.

485

I would love to know Dr.

486

Joy's sewing story.

487

This is, I'm sure what everybody's really

excited for is yes, she wrote this really

488

great book, it's best seller, it's

amazing, it'll change your life, but do

489

you sew though?

490

That's what they're gonna be asking.

491

So I did vet her beforehand, friends.

492

She did make a skirt in middle school or a

tote bag or something.

493

So she's got some bona fides.

494

But tell us about your sewing story such

as it is.

495

You're among friends, it's a safe space.

496

We tapped into this when you were a guest

on Therapy for Black Girls, but your story

497

really reminded me of taking home

economics in high school.

498

So in ninth grade, we had home economics

and one of the units was sewing.

499

And so we made this pair of boxer shorts

that I think probably fell apart, you

500

know, within like three washes.

501

But it was enough for me to be able to

like...

502

stitch enough so that I remember my dad

had a hole in a t-shirt or whatever and I

503

stitched it up with like green thread on a

white t-shirt which was hilarious.

504

But one of my fondest memories of sewing

is not necessarily my own, it is my

505

grandmother's.

506

So I remember, so I'm from Louisiana, I

talk about that all throughout the book,

507

and my the men in my family are

historically welders.

508

And so you know I remember many nights

509

Yeah, my grandmother like up, patching up

my uncle's jeans, because like, you know,

510

they had been on the ship or whatever and

had gotten a hole in the jeans.

511

And so she would always be doing all this

stitching and patching up jeans.

512

And so I do come from a family of people

who have done some sewing.

513

And I remember my mom made me my favorite

Halloween costume, maybe in like third or

514

fourth grade, it was a Raggedy Ann costume

that I loved so, so much.

515

Yeah, so I come from a family of so is,

but I have not necessarily like gotten

516

back into that, but I do enough to be able

to like put a button back on my kids

517

jacket or, you know, something like that.

518

That's great.

519

Because I hate putting buttons.

520

My kids be buttonless because I hate that.

521

I'm like, oh, really?

522

It's so boring.

523

Mm hmm.

524

I too bad you don't live closer friend.

525

Too bad.

526

I'm like, you know what?

527

Right over the doctor, Joy, she loved

putting buttons on stuff.

528

Absolutely.

529

Yes.

530

My poor spouse, they got to go out and get

there.

531

I'm like, oh, these pants need to be

hemmed.

532

I'm like, you know what?

533

Cleaners is only $12.

534

You got $12.

535

I will absolutely.

536

And they'll do it for you.

537

I certainly don't want to.

538

So, but I, one of the things I love about

it is that the, the act of sewing is one

539

thing that I'm arguing is as Audrey Lord

talks about in her, you've mentioned this

540

as well, that the master's tools will

never dismantle the master's house.

541

And so I've developed this idea that

sewing is an example of something that is

542

antithetical to master's tools.

543

Anything can be co-opted.

544

but the needle and thread has been

consigned to a realm of service that the

545

master, quote unquote, doesn't deploy.

546

He might control it, but doesn't do it

themselves.

547

And so it feels like a liberatory act to

just, to put, almost like putting pen to

548

paper, you know, to kind of to write

something, to express something.

549

I feel that way about needle and thread

and fabric and, you know,

550

creating something that was not there

before, did not exist before I made it,

551

you know?

552

And so there's something I think

inherently healing in some ways about

553

sewing.

554

And you see this a lot in the sewing

community.

555

There are t-shirts and slogans and sewing

is my therapy.

556

And I'm like, whoa, that is so

inappropriate.

557

Let us, let's say.

558

But really, Dr.

559

Joy, and I guess one of the things I might

ask is about when you talk about therapy

560

for black girls, it really puts therapy

right up front, you know?

561

And there has been in the past a historic

reluctance among some black communities,

562

I'm not going to say all black, but some

black communities, especially some

563

religious ones who have been kind of, no,

therapy is not something we need or would

564

do or whatever.

565

And you've done a powerful job dismantling

that myth.

566

with this project.

567

Can you talk a bit about the ways that we

might use creative expression, use art,

568

use drawing, use piano, use music, use the

things that we do that might not bring us

569

money, but they bring us pleasure.

570

How does that serve a therapeutic function

without being like, this is the only thing

571

I'm going to do to heal my mental health?

572

Right, right.

573

Yeah, I love those t-shirts and slogans,

right?

574

And I often get a good laugh at those

things too, because they are therapeutic,

575

right?

576

Like sewing can be therapeutic, running

can be therapeutic, but it is not

577

necessarily the same thing as therapy,

right?

578

It's not replacing a relationship with a

licensed mental health professional where

579

you are talking about things, unpacking

all of those things.

580

But it is still important.

581

And to your earlier point, Lisa, you know,

there has been a reluctance to embrace,

582

like mental health and therapy.

583

And rightfully so, right?

584

Like we cannot deny.

585

the white supremacy and like the

historical functions of our field.

586

But I think what has been so important to

me and really critical for me to do with

587

Therapy for Black Girls is to talk about

like how we have come from that history,

588

but this is still for us, right?

589

Because we know that even though we

weren't calling people therapists in our

590

ancestral communities, we know that there

have always been healers in our community,

591

right?

592

And so.

593

therapy in the way that we do it now, is

just, I think, a continuation of the

594

things that our ancestors started.

595

So even though it did not start from us,

we know that healing has always been our

596

birthright and that healers have always

been in our communities.

597

And so therapy for black girls really has

been, I think, a really cool way to kind

598

of talk about, okay, there is mental

illness, right?

599

Like, let's talk about the signs of

depression, the signs of anxiety, you

600

know, what it's like to take medication,

but let's also talk about all these other

601

things.

602

that we can do to actually take care of

our mental health.

603

Because I think for a long time, people

have only thought about mental health as

604

like the avoidance of illness, as opposed

to let's pay attention to our sleep

605

hygiene, right, and like how does sleep

impact our mental health?

606

Let's talk about like movement and how,

you know, our endorphins, you know, get

607

through the roof when we go for a nice

long walk, or what does it mean to be in

608

community and to have close friendship

relationships and how that's also a really

609

good thing to buffer us from stress.

610

So there are all these different things

that I think that are really, really

611

critical to our mental health.

612

And that's really what therapy for black

girls has been about is to be able to kind

613

of explore all of those things that we

don't necessarily think about when we

614

think about mental health.

615

And I really appreciate the way that you

think about health and wellness, that it

616

doesn't, you know, it doesn't have to be,

we don't have to think about it in an

617

extreme, like, Oh, someone's had a break

or you know, something like that, that

618

it's just, it can, that we deserve that

healing is all wholeness and wellness.

619

All of these things are things that are,

that belong to us by right.

620

Another thing that's so wonderful about

the book in this context is you are

621

creating.

622

a practice in the book itself that will

allow, I think, future clinicians as well

623

as just readers like myself, it is

equipping them as well.

624

You have built by the ways that you cite

other black women throughout this book,

625

you dropping Patricia Hill Collins and

Evelyn Higginbotham and all of these

626

historians, and you are creating

627

And as we have in ourselves, you are

creating that which should have been there

628

for us, but never was because we weren't

seen.

629

And yet again, you are proving, just like

you do with when you look at insecure, you

630

are proving that we have already been

there in these fields of health and

631

wellness and psychology.

632

And we have contributions that are utterly

unique and necessary.

633

that allow us to, that allow us to build

what we need.

634

And you have done that so, just so

beautifully throughout this book.

635

Were there any parts of it, of the writing

process?

636

I'd love to hear more about that as

someone who is finished starting a book

637

right now.

638

That, what are some of the parts that were

challenging for you?

639

Did you ever get to, so you seem to have

had an already really robust outline.

640

because you had this event that was going

to happen.

641

So you were able to kind of have that be

like a scaffold and build things around

642

it.

643

But when it came down to put pen to paper

or to sit in front of the laptop or

644

however you write, was there any

challenges or things that came easier,

645

things that you kind of had to sit with a

little longer?

646

Hmm, you know, honestly Lisa, the whole

process was really difficult just because

647

it was a new thing, right?

648

Like I kept trying to equate it to writing

my dissertation, which was the only

649

framework I had for like writing something

of this magnitude.

650

And it clearly is very different from a

dissertation because your dissertation

651

isn't necessarily meant to be like

entertaining and like enjoyable.

652

It's like, it's research, right?

653

Yeah.

654

And so.

655

that.

656

Yeah.

657

Exactly, the people on your committee and

maybe your mom and them like, you know, a

658

grand total of seven.

659

Yeah.

660

Yeah, so it was really a difficult process

because I was trying to do something very

661

new.

662

Um, and I also am somebody who like

663

I'm not super flowery in my language.

664

And I think a lot of that is like being

trained as a psychologist to like write a

665

certain way and like, okay, these are the

facts.

666

Like you don't need to add too much like

interpretation.

667

And so it was really hard for me to kind

of make a book that like, I feel like

668

people would really get in like the

storytelling and you know, that kind of

669

thing.

670

So I actually worked with a writer, Tracy

Louis Giggott, Tracy Michelle Louis

671

Giggott, who really helped me to kind of

like.

672

pull the story pieces out of it, right?

673

To make it something that people would

actually enjoy reading.

674

So I think that the storytelling piece was

a little more difficult for me.

675

And I also was really worried Lisa as a

podcaster, if my voice would translate on

676

the page.

677

So, you know, I think that people have an

expectation of like who Dr.

678

Joy is when they hear me on the mic, or

like if I'm doing a speaking engagement,

679

right?

680

Like I think that there is a warmth that I

convey.

681

And I was really worried that would not

translate on the page.

682

And so I have been, it is always such a

pleasure to get feedback from readers that

683

they do feel like it translated.

684

Cause that probably was my biggest worry

was that like, I wouldn't get the tone

685

right.

686

And like it would feel too scholarly or

people would be like, oh, this doesn't

687

sound like Dr.

688

Joy.

689

So I'm really glad to hear that it did

translate in that way.

690

It absolutely did.

691

And there's also a built in cheat code,

which is listening to the audio version.

692

Because when I tell, when I tell y'all, I

believe that Dr.

693

Joy Harden Bradford sat down one day and

read me this book over the course of two

694

months, because it's, it's really, it's

cause you know, we have you, you know,

695

you're in our ear on the podcast, you

know, but like to have these, um, to have

696

you like,

697

give this long, this, it's a rather, I

think about seven hours worth, I think,

698

seven hours long.

699

It really, maybe eight, it's a really,

it's such a gift.

700

And I, there's a, there's a way in

Audible, which is what I used to do audio

701

books, that you can make tabs, you can

like make clips, you can tab, tap the

702

thing and like add a note or tap the clip

and then you can go back and listen to it.

703

I got about like 40 clips of like things

that I wanna go back and, I'm like,

704

feature in Audible.

705

Ha ha ha.

706

Okay.

707

it's, it's like, I'm, I'm absolutely going

to show you cause I'm a fan girl.

708

Cause like it was, I was looking cause you

can go back and look at all your bookmarks

709

and you can manage your clips and it has

these little, I've got like,

710

all of these things that it's like, oh

yeah, let me, that's a good one.

711

I might ask about that.

712

Like I don't think I ask about any of

them.

713

I'm going to have to call you on the

phone.

714

But, um, the, the thing I was, I was

excited about was indeed like, it really

715

is feeling like we have you with us, you

know, and the warmth, the joy, the, the

716

happiness in your voice, all of that

translated, I think incredibly well to the

717

page and the, the

718

The audio is just such a, another version,

another version of that.

719

Did you, was the recording process weird

to like, or was it pretty much just like

720

you do in the podcast?

721

You know, at least I expected it to be

like, oh, I do this all the time, but it

722

was very different, right?

723

Because I'm in a studio by myself, there's

an engineer on the other side of the wall,

724

and then there's a producer in your ear,

and I think he was in like New York or

725

somewhere, right?

726

And so he's saying like, oh, go back and

do this, or let's give that another try,

727

right?

728

And so usually, of course, when I'm doing

the podcast, like there's nobody, I mean,

729

maybe my producers will say like, okay,

let's go ask this question, but they're

730

not usually in my ear.

731

And so that was a much more difficult

process than I anticipated, especially

732

since I talk, you know, kind of for a

living at this point.

733

Yeah.

734

Oh, that's, that's amazing.

735

Let me ask you throughout writing the

book, what did you learn?

736

Do you have some key learnings that you've

gotten either from finishing the book,

737

turning it in saying, okay, I released

this now I've done it, or key learnings

738

from getting feedback from readers and

listeners that has given you, um, that's

739

giving you something that you really

cherish.

740

Hmm.

741

I will say the key feedback or the key

piece of, you know, learning that I've

742

gotten from finishing the book was that I

can actually do hard things.

743

You know, because I definitely had some

imposter syndrome stuff kicking in there.

744

And it's like, you know, there was so many

weeks of my therapy sessions dedicated to

745

like book writing stuff like I feel like

until I finished.

746

And then when it was time to market, it

was like a whole new slate of like new

747

problems to talk about with my therapist.

748

But I didn't expect so much of my mental

health necessarily to be wrapped up in the

749

writing process, but I definitely got in

my head about how are people gonna receive

750

it, and is it gonna translate?

751

So I think the key piece that I take with

me is that I can do hard things and then

752

let it go and kinda let it be what it is.

753

I think from the readers, what I have

learned is that people are expecting more.

754

Right?

755

Like people are like, okay, well, this was

great, but when is the next one?

756

Like, what is, what's happening?

757

I'm like, oh my God, y'all, I don't know.

758

I don't know if I got it in me again.

759

now I got four more sessions, lining up

with therapists, something to talk about.

760

Now I got to talk about the fear of

failure is one thing, man, fear of success

761

is quite something else.

762

Oh my goodness.

763

That's what we're dealing with now.

764

I really, I feel like the paint is not yet

dry on this book.

765

It's like.

766

Hehehehe

767

It's like, can I, can I please have just a

teeny bit more time to rest, please?

768

Please?

769

Can I get like three more months, just

like a symbolic, just symbolically, let's

770

have nine months go by before we start

thinking about anything else.

771

Just symbolically.

772

I was thinking, it's also really

gratifying to kind of know or warming to

773

know and daring to know that of course, I

mean, I'm like sitting here like, Jordan,

774

do you know who you are?

775

what you mean?

776

Of course I can do hard things.

777

I'm like, you did build, you did write a,

you did, you know, go to graduate school

778

and, you know, wrote a dissertation and

had a practice and then built something

779

that's incredibly unique.

780

That is like, it's inevitable, you know,

it's completely new, it's novel.

781

And I say inevitable because it's unique,

but I think you also want people to be

782

able to build these kinds of things.

783

I remember one of your episodes where a

person was working on

784

um, yoga and did a lot of like yoga events

and they were going to, and it just felt

785

like you are encouraging us to do hard

things all the time, whether that's called

786

that friend or maybe don't call that

friend or, you know, you are always

787

encouraging us to do hard things.

788

So the idea that you are somehow like,

Hmm, this is hard.

789

It just, it, it just makes me, it's, for

me, that's like a big takeaway, like,

790

Dr.

791

Joy be struggling with stuff?

792

What?

793

What you talk, what you say now?

794

What?

795

Absolutely.

796

But you know, Lisa, I think the difference

to me here was that therapy for black

797

girls kind of was created by accident.

798

Like I didn't sit down and say, like, I

want a business dedicated to like black

799

women's mental health.

800

Like I was kind of already doing that work

and it kind of grew as an extension of

801

that.

802

But I think the book was something that

was like, okay, I intentionally pitched

803

this book.

804

I said, I'm going to do this thing.

805

And so it felt like one of the first

things in a very long time that I said

806

like, okay, I'm going to do this thing and

then you gotta finish it.

807

So it felt like a very different process

to me.

808

Yeah, I can understand that.

809

I can understand that.

810

I think that looking at your story from a

distance and seeing therapy for black

811

girls as, you know, a known entity, um, as

something that is already doing thriving

812

and healing work in the community, it's

kind of, it is also, you get a little

813

spoiled.

814

You feel like, Oh, that's always been

here.

815

You know, it's like, it's, well, it's what

it means to like, what you've done is

816

build an institution.

817

You've you've you really, I think you

have, and it really is so robust and

818

necessary.

819

And when, like in the chapter, you talk

about sisterhood over systems.

820

You know, and you have created in therapy

for black girls, the podcast, the book,

821

the sister circle community, the, you

know, all of these things that you've

822

already given us such.

823

powerful gifts and gifts that continue to

equip us, you know, and so it really

824

becomes I don't know it's a rich

opportunity and a rare gift to talk with

825

you about your process and that processes

are currently always ongoing and that we

826

too are in the middle of a process.

827

We too.

828

want something and to get there will be a

journey and there will be steps to be

829

taken.

830

Like that just, I don't know, I just feel

like that's something that we, you know,

831

we see the bit we see, I think we

sometimes get too accustomed to a before

832

and after picture.

833

You know, it's just the before.

834

And then in about two seconds, up comes

the after, you know, or before and now.

835

but all that ugly middle and the

uncertainty and the, oh my gosh, what was

836

I thinking?

837

All that's in the middle, you know?

838

And so I just love how in talking about

your process a bit, you've given us the

839

chance to think about our own processes.

840

You close the book with sister acts, with

resources for ways we can encourage our

841

sisters.

842

There are some really wonderful tips in

there.

843

Can you talk about why you thought it was

important to end the book?

844

with a list of actions for different

things, for different, like this is

845

connect with, hype them up, connect with

the janitorial and the custodial staff at

846

work.

847

For me, something I learned in grad school

is be nice to secretaries.

848

These things, cash up your girl, send her

a playlist, all these different things.

849

Why did you think it was important that

when we got to the end of this wonderful

850

journey,

851

that we were left with some kind of action

items.

852

Mm-hmm.

853

Yeah, because I didn't want it to be a

book that you just read and thought like,

854

oh, that was cute.

855

And then you just put it back on your

shelf, right?

856

Like I wanted it to be something that you

then were moved to act.

857

Right.

858

And I think that there's also a ripple

effect, right?

859

Like you sending your girl a cash app then

means that in a month, she might turn

860

around and do that for somebody else.

861

Right.

862

And so I wanted it to be a way that we

could kind of continue to embody the

863

spirit of sisterhood in a very tangible

way.

864

love it.

865

And I think that it was such a great,

strong thing to end on.

866

It gave me some ideas for like things to

do.

867

And also the way that you had so many

different types of examples, like that

868

people's love languages are different.

869

Like some person, like a cash app is going

to mean more to somebody than the flowers

870

from Trader Joe's, you know, like, you

know, it just, I think that was really

871

very powerful.

872

I'm going to ask you the last question

that we ask everybody on Stitch Police

873

Podcast.

874

And it's this.

875

The slogan of the Stitch Please podcast is

that we will help you get your stitch

876

together.

877

Dr.

878

Joy Harden Bradford, it is my honor to ask

you, how would you help our audience get

879

our stitch together?

880

This feels like such a good question.

881

I think I would help you to get your

stitch together by encouraging you to lean

882

on the people in your circle.

883

And if there is not a circle to do a

little bit more work to get a circle for

884

yourself, because we were not meant to do

life alone and it is so much better and so

885

much sweeter with a circle of sisters

around us.

886

And with that, we are grateful to Dr.

887

Joy.

888

Thank you so much for being with us today.

889

This has been a true delight.

890

Oh, thank you so much, Lisa.

891

It was such a pleasure.