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Honest Talk About Relationships, Heartbreak And Dating - Rob McPhillips EPISODE 27, 27th October 2020
The Lover’s Journey
00:00:00 03:57:56

The Lover’s Journey

Joseph Campbell popularised The Hero's Journey. Here we applied it to the journey of finding lasting love.


Right. So I think we're all back shall we put if you want to put in the chat and anyone who wants to share Which films? You can say but not everyone's going to talk. So my ones I really recommend when I just watched earlier, it's called The Lighthouse. It's a new movie psychological Thriller the lighthouse I highly recommend us I recommend to call it the wild. And maybe Battle Royale. This is a Japanese movie. Okay wasn't very James Bond one of them title senior Royale a I'll it's a Japanese movie. It's like the Hunger Games. It's like the original version at Hunger Games. They reckon The Hunger Games copied my oh no. No, sir. So, what was it about those films that you well I'll just talk mainly about the one I just saw today which was called and the lighthouse it was a very like unique for them. There's only two characters in it and it's a psychological trailer and like it's just very very entertaining like Always you never get bored of it like and it's like and it's just shows like the man the camera work is really good. It's Black and Whites to look like an old movie and the story line is just very very good. It's like I recommend looking looking it up anyway and see if you might not be everyone's cup of tea, but it's the type of movie that I like and I said what film that came out a few years. Segoe, okay. What was that? It's like a psychological Thriller is well with the real question being a philosophical question, which is what is it mean to be human?  Okay. So is this like machines versus Humans type thing? Sort of but not really but they make a an AI artificial intelligence and they're trying to make it as human as possible. And I so I was saying that the deeper question is not what does it take to make an AI human? But what is it that makes us quintessentially human. So in order to make a AI that successfully passes the Turing test and is taken for human. You have to be able to find out what obviously constitutes fundamentally human said the real. Not about the ARB. It's about our humanity. And what is it that makes us human interesting is essential think when you look at some of the technology that's coming around it's where we're going to sort of merge with review moments where like intelligence is never going to be a competitive advantage in the future because machines are going to be there and implanted in us. So yeah, that's that's an interesting question for I will have to face it started already. Don't be scared. Yeah, think of your Cochlear implants in your bug your your joints and your Pacemaker and your insulin pump and all of that started. It's just that those things you think of them as You don't think of them as things that can be hooked up to become a network of its own as you go along. So the more things are replaced and the more that they are program of programmable. Then you get you're getting closer and closer to that cyborg State. Yeah. Okay, so we got seven as well wasn't was seven like a horror or thriller. Weller psychological Thriller, but serial killer I don't want to give too much away in case somebody wants to actually watch it. But yeah, it was good. We could you find whenever some love. Yeah Netflix list here at night when the lights are off. Yeah, okay. Alright, so we're I don't really know the main characters in this but so we'll get we've tonight we're going to talk about the hero's journey and how that relates to relationships and the reason why I asked about films is because the hero's journey is is a concept that Joseph Campbell popularized and he actually got them the monomyth first came from James Joyce, but Joseph Campbell was this genius who sort of lived life on his own the damn bastard live life on these in his own. Design sort of way he wanted to do a PhD in literature and he'd arranged his Ph.D. And he went traveling and he really found out all it was about it was going to do American Native an apology and he he went travelling he found all this a fury and Celtic mythology and he said like it's expanded. I don't want to do this and they wouldn't they said my my you've agreed this this is has been a good idea and he just said sorry it went and it was in the beginning of depression and 1930s. So he just went to this to you this heart in the middle of the forest and for five years you just live that in his heart really simply just reading all day. And basically he went into to this solitude. It's reading all kinds of Mythology all kinds of books and he emerged five years later and he wrote this He wrote this book the hero and the hero with a thousand faces. And essentially the premise of the of that is that there is a universal structure to all stories and every great mythology and every great story from Rocky from Harry Potter Lord of the Rings to Jesus booger The Iliad and odyssey. See all follow the same structure and when you look at this the structure that he's got it's a brilliant. recognition of the structure that we go through whenever there's any kind of in order to like in order to have the career that we want in order to have a business that we want to have a relationship that we want to do anything that we want of significance. We have to become better than we are we have to develop skills knowledge confidence that we didn't have and the hero's journey is basically the story of that. It's the story of this free phases to it. There's the Comfortable Ordinary World is the separation we go to a new world and then there's the return. And the journey like when you think of a question the question is like the Holy Grail where you go for this object, but what all of those the stories is about is while you're going for that quest for that thing you're changing and it's it's really about The Interchange and not the the outer chain like the outer award. So let's look at the question. So we need If you I don't I remember the holiday in the buses, but I don't know the characters well enough to look at their hero's journey the others the others was a great film. So I really look at the archetype now probably the closest archetype to this is Star Wars and George Lucas had Star Wars for years and you couldn't write it and it was only when he came upon. The hero's journey structure that he just literally followed it out like that. So there's lots of like the Matrix is based on it. What ship down Lion King, all of these kind of films are based on it. So the first step is you have to show the contrast you have to show some on first in that Audrey world. And so first live Sky will clear. This is where he's all on the farm and he wants something more. So it's the safe stable world, but is is wanting something more and this is where a lot of people are at in terms of relationship. It probably comes the more, you know, it might be happy on their own but they just feel that they want something something more and I feel like there's something more out there for them. The next stage is something happens with a great white is called an inciting incident is something that happens that Spurs them like opens this whole new world and so it could be you come across someone really attractive. Someone asks you out it could and for Luke Skywalker was Princess Lea. The message from Princess Leia for Neo in The Matrix. It was when he got this message that follow these watch out for the white rabbit or something like that. So it's the Call to Adventure. But what almost always happens is is scary. And so there's the refusal of the call. So most of the time the hero will refuse and Luke Skywalker refuses the call because his uncle needs him Harry Potter doesn't believe that he you know, it has anything magical about him like the epitome of the refusal of the call is to build. By Baggins in The Hobbit. This is like, oh, I wouldn't want an adventure nasty dirty dangerous things that make you late for dinner. So this is Sometimes people are wanting to go on a dating site page. Sometimes people have been asked out but they feel uncomfortable in the situation or ascared of what that involves. So I think we all refuse the call as well. But the key to the review the key to the refusal of the call is that life is never going to be better. It's like life is going to always become boring constricting and Till you accept that call and so that's what films so that's the first section. That's like the Ordinary World. So I think  We can see it in films. But if we relate that to your own circumstances your own situations things that have happened in the past. When have you been in the Ordinary World what's been the Call to Adventure and power of you refuse then why have you refused it? So I think that would be an interesting point for a chat and in the breakout rooms. So if we go to the breakout rooms for we just have a short chat you think 8 minutes be enough?  okay, so if I set the breakout rooms and we'll be back about eight minutes again when you get the link, you don't have to rush straight back because you'll still have another minute. So is that clear? What what we're talking about? Just gives it again please rub. Okay. So the three stages are the Ordinary World where you are in your own work Ordinary World The Call to Adventure like the inciting incident what has called you to what have you been dissatisfied with in your current state that you would like a relationship? What is the Call to Adventure? What's the incident that made you think like this whole new world could open up to me and what and how have you? used it okay did so I think this is although this is like a script writing has been used as a script writing so that it's a way of interpreting books and films. I think we have our own narrative and we live by narrative and the difference between really struggling and really feeling empowered and grow for an experience is the narrative that we give to it. So I think by Able to apply these narratives. We we can change our experience of what happens. So did anyone have any insights or any stories or experiences that they can relate to? That they would like to share. I think so. I just got some amazing stories, but it's just kind of unable to tell us at the Mormons. She's going to have a busy night typing. I think she is. Yeah, there's a bit of a discussion going on in our group about kind of life being candid that in secret intricate that it's difficult to say, what's what I see you brought it over but it's hard to say what's technically go there. And because of the intricacies of life because of that. There was regret that doesn't really I don't really have much regrets. Obviously. I'd rather have not done certain things or behave in certain ways, but you kind of where you are. Because of what you've done I suppose and that's the thing more of his kind of says something similar in The Matrix about things happened just because they they also know like that countries a phrase which kind of fits into what we were talking about. Yeah. I remember this is a story I used in my bed case. Maybe it's her like a Chinese proverb. And that's it. Yeah, you know it. Yeah, it's so so one day like in ancient China this horse comes in and this man gives her a horse which is like a horse is worth like a house now and everyone to know how lucky you are. You're so lucky. He said maybe and his sons breaking in the horse and the horse froze him off and breaks his Leg, and if I saw what terrible luck your son, how are you going to bring in all the crops and how we've been a farm everything this year? And he said they said, you know what terrible luck and he says maybe and then a couple of months later the Army come around and can script in all the figuring men and he can't go and he's like one of the only ones saved from like a bloody war and it's just like Alan Shepard. Sign what we think is like sometimes you can never tell if it is or isn't it takes a longer time span? In terms of the refusal of the call and the Call to Adventure. Like does that bring any insights on where you may like where your fears might hold you back or where you're feeling of obligation to your current state cyst, like for example, as I'm saying that what comes into my head is the research that on average it takes a couple six years from where decide they're going to leave like a marriage to when they actually leave it and that's there's so many obligations and fears and restrictions. So does that make sense to you that the refusal of the call? It makes sense and we were discussing along similar lines because it's one thing to recognize that you need to change. But then as you mentioned obligations sense of Duty that can hold you back. But even after you have resolved that or those issues there is still yourself. How do you proceed? One it says it's the landscape has changed so they are fares as to how you're going to cope. What how can you navigate this new place? How are you going to be comfortable in it? Are you confident Etc? So there is one your yourself within a relationship or within a system because every marriage or relationship has not just the two people but family members business all of those. Things are intertwined and you have to unravel those to get yourself and not feel guilty about that process. And as you said takes about 6 years because you have to figure out how you're going to get yourself out with I suppose the least amount of bruising to yourself and to others because there's also The the fair that what you do can have serious impact on the others or the significant other in the relationship and how they are going to cope as well. And those things can hold you back. But once you're out of that there is as you say making that step to enter into a new phase of Life the confidence to do that. In a landscape that you probably don't recognize and to figure out how to maneuver the develop that confidence to then try to engage with people who again, it's going to be the same thing. Am I going to have to go through the same set of experiences that I had and how many as I as I called it how many princes am I going to have how many frogs am I going? Case before I find my prints are going to go through all of that that is just time consuming his energy-sapping. It's can't I just find the one right now and we just start you know, and we go through this thing. So it's I think it's effort. It's fear of the unknown and it's having to go but I think a positive note is that we I've gained some experiences that we can draw on even though that relationship that we are leaving or that situation at relieving we have failed their lessons that we have learned that we can bring to bear. And that's interesting because that kind of leads us to the next stage. So it's really there's all these external reasons like you said and really it's about us getting to grips with all of those and the internal fears and being ready and like the details of actually doing it. I just a sort of administration but it's it's becoming instead of facing the fears. And so this is the next state of thats that's like the cut off from the Ordinary World. So now once you've gone past the refusal of the call, the next stage is the stage that takes you into the new world is the meeting of the mentor meeting with the mentor. So this is the idea that you have a plan. You have something you see some way that you can do this and initially it may be that you don't have belief in yourself. But you have belief in something else. So or Luke Skywalker is Obi-Wan Kenobi and knowing the world of the Jedis and having cop having belief in the Jedis for Neo it was Morpheus and you know all that. Yeah, Morpheus and Trinity that they had a plan and they had something going on for think of other films for for Rocky. It was it was finding his trainer Mickey who taking him on so the stage of the mental is Finding some knowledge finding someone or some training that you can believe in until you can believe in yourself. Sorry. Once you have that that sort of pushes you over the edge and give you the confidence to take this new quick New Journey. And so the next part is crossing the threshold increase it crossing the threshold is The stage of leaving the comfort of your own world and finding this strange new world. So in Star Wars, this is when he goes into that bar. It's full of all these strange aliens of it's like this completely different world for a mate for Neo in the matrix. It's going into the joining the crew of The Never member kashiro or whatever it is. And so it is finding this. Only world that you're in and just finding your place now. So in terms of relationships is crossing the threshold could be like date joining the dating site. It could be when you've leave your relationship and you suddenly got this new world open up. Yeah, I think ultimately is I think the refuse of as I said it can it be dangerous that stage. Yes it is because ultimately what what the refusal of this call tells you is that life is always going to be shrinking and I think there's the comfort zone and if you don't Branch past that comfort zone Everything you want is in what I call the Adventure Zone but the adventures that design is scary and if you don't take if you don't make that leap your life is always going to be less than it could it's going to bore you and what's and what anxiety what happens is the less you face anxiety the more it in circles you and shrinks and so there's the more and more scares you so the less needs to happen. Are you to feel anxious?  so Okay, so he's crossing the threshold know once you cross the threshold. You're in this strange new world. And once you're in a Strange New World, you think you find yeah, that's actually says of each of the individual these three things that patient. That's really what what determines how long it takes you to go from the refusal of the call. It's really about getting the confidence together and feeling ready to take that leap. And so yeah, it's going to be different for everyone. So all of this is unique the Is a universal structure but the I mean we can see how many films it's in. I remember years ago. I used to sort of emails and it was like 501 different Heroes Journeys and they broken and 501 films down into the hero's journey structure. So once you're in the new world, it's about tests allies and enemies. So a new world has different challenges for you. It's tests that you're not comfortable with and then it's sorting out who your allies and who your enemies so in Star Wars, you've got the rebels you got Han Solo principally a cube a coronal then and then you've got the Stormtroopers. You've got Darth Vader in Harry Potter. You've got the sliver earrings and Gryffindor is it so it's like you've got allies and enemies. So what did I see in sight you're going to have? People that you may not be attracted to you may not get on but you probably going to end up just chatting to a few people as kind of friends. You're going to have people who are rude people are aggressive and you're going to have tests. You're going to have rejection. You're going to have to deal with people who are rude and you're going to have to just like how do you get someone's attention? How do you deal with people who are persistent but your uninterested so all of these are tests. So the next stage is the approach to the innermost cage in the most cave. And so this is like you get into the belly of the whale which is the real big ordeal and this is when you just get in there and this is when your anxiety is going to be the most is to enter your most fear because you've got all this has built up so that the stakes are so high like this is the reward your clothes you. Just got to like face this big ordeal slay the dragon or whatever it is. And then you've got the reward that you've come on this quest for but between you and that is this dragon. Is this monster is this whatever it is. And so this is really about dealing with your fear. And so when we put that to relationships, it could be that you're in a relationship. So this this format also works in terms of slaying the dragon is like the approach that the this is the stage where in order to slay the dragon you've got to deal with a really difficult conversations. But we don't want to have those difficult conversations because it makes us anxious is scary. We have to be vulnerable. Enticing it's this is the the bit like maybe for some people it's going to be going out on the first date for some people it's going to be okay. I've got to I can I'm quite comfortable with two or three months relationships. But what happens if it gets past there it gets real. It could be a year or two years like whatever the whatever the stage I look at relationships. It's kind of like it's like a hose pipe and is anywhere in there you can have leaks and there's going to be I think we touched on this last week There's wherever you are. There's always going to be a problem. And if the problem was I think it was it Richard was talking about His problem was not getting attention and conversations. It was people being affected that he wasn't interested. And so wherever it is whether it's attracting attention or whether it's dealing with unwanted attention. What you're doing is you're just moving the problem along. And so when you it's a process of fixing up all those leaks, so Should it be wherever you're feeling? The most fear is the the big ordeal the thing that you have to face? Okay, so then you come to the big ordeal and this is the critical thing that's going to lead you to get the thing that you're seeking whether it's dealing sorting out a relationship so that you you can use you save the relationship and reinforce the relationship or whatever. It's getting into a relationship or make whether it's committing. To a relationship whatever is is this is the Big Challenge so send the big ordeal like in Star Wars is they get sucked in and maybe I think it's what he faces stuff aider or for Harry Potter will be facing Voldemort or whichever person is representing him for Rocky. This is the being in the ring and being battered by Apollo Creed and getting up and now knowing that he can just keep getting up and staying staying with him. So This is the big test. And this is the test that at the beginning the hero didn't think he was. Capable of and so it's recognized. So The Wizard of Oz is brilliant for this in the sense of everyone on that Journey thinks that they don't have what they need. The Tin Man thinks he's got no heart the straw man thinks he's got a brain. I can't remember the details below and thinks he's got no courage all of those things and the journey is showing them this giving them the challenges that show them that they have m. I needed. Okay, so I think this is a good point. So this is like the midpoint and a good point to talk about. How does this relate to your individual narratives? So we're all going through our life. And we're all making sense of it with some kind of narrative and all of us are going through these stages. We might not consciously recognize it. But if we use this structure we can see that when we feel fear. It's Not Unusual this is just part of the journey when we filled out when we feel that we're not good enough when we feel that we're never going to get there. It's Not Unusual it's not us this is just the stages of the journey no. I'm not sure if it would be better for so let me know would it be better to discuss this in small breakout groups or would it be better to have a couple of moments to think individually for ourselves?   Just just think I think it would be nice to talk about it with everybody. I don't know how the other site any other votes. I'd like to discuss it with the small group. Okay. Alright, so we're going to the breakout room. But if anyone does want would rather just think about themselves then just ignore the ignore the invitation. So is everyone clear Oh, they won't want to recap on any of that. Can you recap please? Yeah. Okay. So basically the last stage was was the fear and what we've done is we've left our comfortable World. We've got some confidence from somewhere that we can do this. We then enter This Strange New World with of acquaintance ourselves with what's going on. What code what's where houses this world work and now we're Reaching the moment of the our biggest fear and then we're facing this challenge that we never believed that we could do. So does that make sense? There's any everyone clear on that? Okay, so I'm going to open up the breakout rooms will go for 10 minutes.  Oh, no, sir. You can just you can just go onto onto YouTube and if you just look up the them thinking if there's like quite a few different things on it for basically the victim when you put win even a victim mode the victim mode is somebody who's had some something happen to them, which is a negative experience and the negative experience will more often or not. Change the identity of that patient because they've had the identity changed and now begin to doubt cause trauma and the victim will line. Look towards somebody else for that for that trauma to be healed. But the problem is is that you're given you an hour away and a good example is that is relationship going wrong and then you look you're in pain because of that relationship and then you'll need to find another relationship. Just like the victims. Are you sure you're not not happy being on their own basically and do you want to other person you only feel happy if you were with her in a relationship, even if you don't like the person yeah because many different layers to it. So yeah, thanks. I'll have a look on YouTube. Damien said he did anyone have anything that they're willing to share or in size whether personal or whether you've liked things that you've observed from other people. I don't I don't mind sharing mine. If you if you want my wisdom about my weight loss Journey, so I'm still not finished it but I've lost five stain five pounds. Not that I'm counting on. Seventeen months so that was a pretty big big challenge big change. That's massive. Yeah, and we were talking about actually it's really interesting because then was asking that what was the fear in the initially and you and I hadn't thought about that. So I originally started because I was diagnosed with well. I hope they found they told me I was heading towards diabetes and I have children and and it just wasn't not even an option for me to just continue down that path and it was just the big push. I needed to lose weight really and I attached tried a few different ways of eating and so it worked for me and Ben was I really good news. I walked with the fear about it and I was like, oh, yeah, it's really interesting. But I think I was saying since then I've done so much research into food and and you know how we how we use it and how it is come obvious. It's called comfort food because it's comfortable and P and It's such a big part of our lives and a lot of people take it very lightly when we should be taking it a lot more seriously, I could preach about it away. But for me that's been a whole journey and really looked at the way I look at my relationship with food and I'm just so different than I was not just in terms of my body which is you know, amazing now, but just it has helped my mental health. It's helped just to help to me or I have come off my antidepressants, which I was Struggling to come off of for like eight years. And yeah, so it's been eyes we have because I don't even see it now as a challenge, I have to remember what it was like back then because now it's just the way I do things which is great because the facts like the journey doesn't it? So, I don't know but I'm really proud of myself. So it's why I wouldn't mind talking about it. It should be I think we all give you a clap. Well down there. Yeah, and I do share about it all the time because I think you know, you never know who you're going to help when you tell people your story. So yeah, I mean, I mean really this universality tall story, so In that instance through you know from just from reading into what you said. You were someone who were was in this like comfortable world and probably never thought that you were capable of doing that and then facing all the challenges and all the fears and now you've grown into a different person not just because of you know, the all of the weight loss but because of knowing that you can do that Yeah, I and I think nothing really seems as challenging anymore. That sounds really cliche but it really is like when you look at because I can physically see it and you know, I'm because I've knocked down people haven't really seen me. So I go out and I bump into people I know and on the school runs and stuff and they were a lot and even lock down whenever he's been putting on weight and I don't mean this in a bad way. I've lost like a stone and a half this year just the most of it was lost last year and so people but I think I just if it just inspires one person to go actually, you know, I probably could be a little bit differently or something like that then it's great. But yeah, I don't it's weird. It's just you know relations on the have you got any pictures around the house of yourself prior to when you put on the weight, so when you were Lemma yeah, we have. Yeah, I've got photos everywhere and I'm I'm always the one behind the camera but we went on we went on a trip to Euro Disney last year just as I started my my journey after I started after I came back because I'm not that silly. And and so there are photos everywhere of me looking much bigger at Euro Disney and we have those everywhere and they keep coming up on my feed. And yeah, I do I do. I don't like them. It's like it's a different any of you when you were Slim. When I want before I got big. No, do you know what I don't think there are any of me of before I was because I think it's so funny. Is it because you put weight on so slowly you don't realize so I haven't really got any of before I got that big in the first place my wedding photos. I'm long divorced but my wedding photos are looked really nice. That was the slimmest. I've been for a long time. I don't mind looking at my wedding photos because I looked Nice that more Weddings But yeah, I've got those and then you can see the difference and then I'm going back to that now. So did you you know when you started on your journey weight loss. Did you have a mental image of you being slim? I did and the image. So I lost I used to be a Slimming World Consulting and when I lost weight for my wedding, I still never even at that point got dying. So the image in my head of what I want. I wanted to be and this time I am going to get there. Yeah, I've got very specific image of what I want to be and I started working out started yoga started running and running Iran who only goes on one of those really annoying women or one of those people that goes out in the cold and the dark winter days in a t-shirt running with their dog. I kind of like don't like but I do that, but I used to hate these people, but now I'm one of those people but Yeah my day. Thank you. I just wanted to confirm me Steady which is basically a blue successful often have the image of success of in the head before the actual confirmation took set happens. I know absolutely and it's been there since I joined Slimming World back in 2008, and I still haven't got there yet. I've never been there. So but this time I'm getting there. Absolutely. I like I'm nothing's gonna swing me. Do I sound what my fate and determined? You have to come back when you get there. No. Did anyone else this brings to mind any any other circumstances observations right? Anyone else would like to share? I think I'm resolved to well. This hasn't this has been with me for a while for quite of quite a while. But nonetheless, I think it's more embedded in me now that I will not apologize for who I am. for what you have achieved and if you can't cope with it, you can go not for me, too. Hide myself or who I am or what? I am to appease anybody and if you're uncomfortable. Then it's best. We just don't go anywhere. Let's put it that way because for me to subsume what I am or who I am to please somebody would do myself with between me and myself a disservice and I've really never done it. But I've kind of done it if you know what I mean sort of Subconsciously you kind of play that game and you you you don't say some of the things and you play down your achievements what you have done or you know, or if you're good at something you don't let the other anybody know and you especially your partner might feel that they they haven't reached their or they can't do this particular thing. You know that sort of Still feel you don't talk about it or you pretend that you don't even know what it is and so forth and all of those kinds of things and I am not going to do that even more. So my resolve is yeah and you either like me or you dude and if you don't like me, you're missing a hell of a lot. That's how I have. That's what I say. You don't know what you're missing and your loss not. And that's sounds good resolution. Yeah. Yep. I was wondering if anyone I don't know Rob if this is probably more relating to the point of fear, but if anyone's thought about you know, the nature of the law of resistance which comes up during the hero's journey. I can't remember what stage it is a little of the even called The Law of resistance, but it's like when you sort of make a decision to start changing things, it's like you'll just be faced with like roadblock after roadblock. Ciao. Dr. Challenge after talent and then it's just expected as I could given sort of like fear is a part of that supposed but a lot of resistance you have to expect resistance when you're changing. Yeah. Yeah. So so that the biggest I mean you get the test allies in the enemies. So that's the stage where you start getting tests and I'm just a graph that is the approach to the in the most case just before you have the big ordeal and that's really a stage of facing your fears. It's about the anxiety of before. Or it when you want to turn back and you want to run and you don't think that you're good enough. You don't think you're capable of doing it. And yeah, so that's yeah that's that stages is really the to real points the refusal of the call and then they approached the anyways case which are really about getting on the courage to just do it and not feeling good enough and then going through that ordeal and then finding that you can't you're more than you. You could see it's good point. Okay, so yes, it's really yet. Is that Alice is really about it's about fear doubt yourself not thinking you can you're up to it. And I think Neo in The Matrix is the real point is like the turning point where he goes back to save Morpheus and he doesn't think he's going to get out alive and then suddenly these bullets. Come and he just reacts it's how he grows into the moment and becomes in its where he starts getting a belief that he is the one and then like that changes everything. So once we've gone from the ordeal and and really that is the point with Morpheus that normal Fierce Neo where he's got all those like he's growing his suddenly realized he's been shot and he's just spending and he doesn't know how he's doing it, but he just realizes this is it and his kind of this he realizes just kind of play with agent Jones or Smith or whatever it is. And he realizes that I am the one I can do this and said this is the stage of being reborn. And so you went into the this special world with an identity that you weren't good enough. And once you've gone through and you face your biggest fear and you've come through and so I think Michelle that you can attest to this and this is probably what you you said that you felt like you could you felt more confident. She felt you could face other challenges because you face that and you realize that how much hidden depths that you have. I'm not sure if anyone's is ever heard of David Goggins. Alicia anyone else Okay, so I've heard from him. I'm of course audiobook on when I run. Yeah, he's only a brilliant business here. I really like him actually. Yeah, he's great. He's really shy very on my Runnings. I'm like, yeah, well David because he's like I liked him liked the way he has a very good mentality like just to you know, overcome any obstacle like even if it's difficult just punch through. Yeah. Yeah. Like I like his for us because I'm quite strong Weld and quite a strong characters. So will the wishy-washy airy-fairy coaching stuff doesn't work with me a lot of applying. I like a more aggressive approach. And as I mentioned it's one of my friends and with that that would just terrify meeting and scare me and I would hate it and I was like, no, I love it. It just weird how it's different works for the yeah. That's easy. Yeah, I've had recommended. So so basically just to recap I'm just going to mute everyone but I mean itself if you have something to share so so basically just to the point of a goblins. Okay. So the point of David Goggins is The David Koch decision in a nutshell was he was like 300 pounds he thrown out he burned up in this horrific the abusive household. He then they'd escaped from his his dad and moved to wherever he went to school, which was like the next town of the KKK is black next town of the KKK headquarters, and he was just horrific abuse. Like he had his car spray-painted and when he went to the Head teacher there and it was like he said I realized then no one was going to save me he is there's like Mom had been lost from the abuse that she was really there for him. He went to the Head teacher and all he could say was well, they can't even spell and he said he realized he had no there was no one no one's coming for him. He had to do it. And so anyway, he's life wasn't going so well, he was early 20s. He he was 300 pounds. He was in a dead-end job. He was just coming home stuffing himself and he saw something on TV and he had been in the Army but left and he saw these people like the servicemen's children who couldn't afford college and he decided he was going to run he wasn't just going to run but he was going to run hundred hundred of Mile out from are often. So I rang up here and around these places or anyway, he rang around these places and they laughed at him and they said like you're not going to get in and then one of them said, okay, it's what you have to do. You have to do an ultra marathon before you go to this in the next week Davis 300-pound. You hadn't run in mumps and he has run a hundred. A hundred miles in a month or something. I'm and anyway just from sheer determination. And as he says it's basically he felt he was the weakest man on Earth and he felt he had to be the strongest and so he was already in so much pain psychologically that he was just willing to go through anything and he went through his dreams that he was running on broken Shins. He had got to the point of about 76 miles in he stopped and sat down and he couldn't physically get up. He swung himself as you can get to the toilet and yet he still carried on. And everyone so talks about his physical accomplishments, but it as he says it was never really about that. It was what he was doing was strength putting himself through so much to strengthen himself. So that he could cope with whatever happened. And he talks about his he was he wasn't close with his brother, but his brother son was killed suddenly and dealing with that was easier because he'd been through so much and he knew that if he could face the challenge physically he could Chase it you can face it mentally. so the point of that is is that he's an extreme case and I don't think you're almost anyone's going to go to those limbs. You don't need to go to those lengths and human says that but it's about knowing that faith when you face your fears. is when you find who you can be and it's only then that you know what you have like he says basically 25% is about the limit of what we think we can do and when we go beyond that, there's so much more. And it's just accessing that and it's not about going past that because it's like glory in it or because you pushing yourself to a point of damage, but it's about the takeaway for us is there's always more there's always more that you can do past your fears. And I think the other the corollary to this is The Wizard of Oz that we all have it in US. but all of us think that we're missing something and our narrative is that we're missing this thing that if only we had this we would be different and yet the the the Wizard of Oz story is that we all have it in US So once you've been through the ordeal the this is when you've got the price so you slayed the dragon you've got the Holy Grail or whatever it is you came for and this is it you've won the prize.  And everyone thinks you've got the prize. This is it that's it's over or you know, so in Star Wars they knock down the Empire's ship or whatever in The Matrix, they defeat the agent Smith. But what happens is there's a Chase back. So the dragon chases you to get back. What is his last the Empire chase them back? And so we think we face this fear and this is this is it we've done it but there's still there's still more challenges and what these challenges really are about there's some Campbell talked about these challenges are really about testing. Have you really learned the lessons so we get the mini tests in the test of the Allies we get your deal where we realize that we're more and now it's about have you really learned the lesson? Like was that a one-off or can you you know have you grown so that you are that person that can face these challenges? So in the same way in relationships, you're going to meet that challenge. You're going to grow think everything's fine. And they're still going to be other challenges and it's knowing that so you can and it's knowing that you both challenges you. In growing to the challenges, you've become someone who's capable of dealing with those challenges. So it's like you've grown to another level. So then there's the chase back. So this is the final challenges. This is like leaving the special world and it's fleeing. And now maybe this is in a relationship. Maybe this is you've got into a relationship. And now it's you're coming back the same way that you can but you're coming back as part of the couple which is a change of identity or maybe it's that you've left that relationship and now you're coming back on your own and so that's a change of identity and so it's really about How has the odile changed you so Michelle was talked about her experience and how then she felt that she could face other challenges and so when you face those challenge. You become stronger and and it doesn't mean that like is one Challenge and it's over but it means that you've grown you've become someone else and now you're going to be tested for how strong that how well you've learned that how strong that change that sense of identity is. So does that? Does that make sense? Do you can you relate that to your narrative maybe to a time when you when you went through something and you thought it was just going to be this thing and then you've found that there's new challenges that have tested you. Can I just ask some are you are you kind of just to summarize what you just said that you can to saying that you're go through and actually you'll go through situation you'll have that experience. Then you'll change or develop as usual so that experience or so you believe then you'll have a similar experience in future that will either be the same water it make you feel emotionally and then because of that experience You will then you should react differently to the first time and it's almost like your test to prove that you have learned from the fish one. Yeah, it's basically a new identity from it and the test reinforces the identity. Yeah. Yeah, thank you. That that's equivalent to talking about personal growth that in a way. Yeah, so so you've had a challenge. So let's say someone want to deal with stress and they found meditation or something got them through a really stressful time and then in the future when they're stressed the test is can they cope with that stress?  Okay, so then that's really now so that is the journey into the into the special world. And then what happens is is the return the resurrection and it's where you re-emerge you come back into your ordinary world, but you come back changed. and so  I'm trying to think because like the Matrix the Star Wars they don't really come back. I mean Harry Potter comes back and he's different you like he stands up to the family. He is no longer. The boy is just going to be shoved under the stairs and also done dosage a good example of that isn't in Lord of the Rings Where you getting good that battle the most sorry the Matrix he comes back as well. Why he doesn't come back to the Ordinary World. But yeah, he comes back to the crews to know what it's making the delivery. It's making me think of what you were just saying is is the England football team and all these shootouts is something I was think so so, you know, obviously they actually won one at the well, or they won't have been which you at the World Cup and there were all those years weren't there all those decades where they couldn't win a penalty shootout and it was always the Jay outs and things just did feel different. I think I know how it felt for that. And because it's such a weird thing, isn't it? So always lose when basically as a profound level, you know, but it's been it clearly there was something so probably was yeah. I'm a Liverpool fan. So last year, I know I know why didn't you tell me this like eight weeks ago you have the would never join so like 30 years we come so close so many times and then Well, and then then it's the year where we almost didn't complete the season. Although Allen with a like that look at Lucky's top of the league at the moment, but I know there's ladies present. So we want to talk about football.  so See, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I think that's that's a really good analogy. I'd like the cycling team as well. Like the UK cycling team had won. They won one medal in a hundred years where major bike manufacturers didn't want them riding their bikes because they thought it'd be her cells because they were so bad and then suddenly, you know, they did all the incremental Improvement and Allen brailsford has around where his name is brought in. System and suddenly, I don't know how many they've 40 or 50 medals and Tour de France is in that time. And yeah, a lot of sports is all about psychological Andy Murray. No one's won Wimbledon until Roger Bannister obviously would be the epitome of that. So, how does this then relate to us? So people typically have relationship patterns. So maybe it's always choosing wrong person. Maybe it's always getting frightened and running away from the relationship. Maybe it's always feeling insecure in a relationship and then never Like never been able to settle never been able to assert your boundaries. Or always staying in a relationship and not leaving when you know like it's over really so. these are ways like you go through the ordeal and then it solidifies that your change the new emerging into the Ordinary World is maybe you're now part of a couple and that's different that's going to change the context of your social environment and the way that you live or maybe you were a couple now you're on your own and that's going to change, you know, like social social groups friendship groups in that change after the breakup of a long relationship So that's about re-emerging with this new identity, which is all part of it's solidifying as your new identity. And then so the final stage is the return with the Elixir is the return of the boom. So the whole point of this journey this Quest is to bring is to bring something back. Is to bring something back not just for you, but for the greater world so Neo in The Matrix was to unhook people from the from the Matrix and when he like re-emerging on the ship. It's like OK, right? This is it I did. I'm the one I'm going to go and do this Luke Skywalker got they got their sort of coming out Sarah winning and they were like, yeah, we're going to fight this up fight this war Harry Potter is like grown in confidence and he has a sort of status around the head begins to step into the legend that he already was Rocky is he lost the fire ultimately, but he went from no one who like a joke to someone who was a true Contender and he won over everyone's respect especially like we look at Rocky for in You know when he went into Russia and everyone hated him and then he's kind of like single-handedly topples the Russian stronghold on it. So when we look at some of the older ones is like Jesus and the story of Jesus is that he died to pay for the sin of sin of man. And Buddha found this Enlightenment and he came back and live for another 40 years to share what he'd learned with people. So being the ultimate story is that we went on a quest for something greater than ourselves and we became transformed in it. So, how does this relate to relationship? So we are re-emerge we so I suppose I ultimately it means that we become a better person so that we become a better partner. We become the person that demands more from our partner so that we have the relationship that we want. Does that make sense and can anyone relate to those stages or have any comments observations? That brings up one word in my head confidence. In that regard in that it's a kind of a metamorphosis that's taken place. But at the end of that change for you to be able to embrace it and to be sure that it is. The right thing that you that's what you are now, then it's because it's a change in you and you have to accept it. You have to embrace it, but you also have to defend it in a way. As in people are going to treat you differently. He'd have it differently and they may not like the new you yeah, all that part of you. That's added that that's added Dimension because it may complicate matters. It may make them feel inferior insecure at a disadvantage to you. They may feel that you are out of their reach now, you have become this other person. And that are that you have Eclipse them in some way. So there are those elements. But which to me says you have to be so willing to defend your new state in a sense and I don't mean by fighting but be so secure in who you know are and hold on to it and be so sure that this is right for you and this is the part that you're Into beyond that you're not sweet from it. Yeah, they can sense. Yeah, no salt is all about confidence. But you see the thing is that people are looking for confidence without the ordeal? so people, you know, people are always looking that people want more confidence, but  you have you have to put yourself in the situations a lot. I mean, that's what I'm I'm going back to the penalties again, and I'm thinking that you know, when you're taking that panel that football, you know, there's no no matter what you do in training. You've got to do it in a game. Haven't you that there's no you can't you can't recreate that. You only know you only know whether you can do it if you actually put yourself in the situation you take the risk. Yeah, where you go to do it and you learn From that thank you. I suppose yeah, so that's how you kind of galvanized whether you've learned those skills. I suppose whether you have changed the become more improved us-based. Yeah. Yeah. It's You it's you seen it. I mean people talk a lot about confidence, but you have to have competence in line with your confidence because there are people that have confidence but not competence and that's just a recipe for disaster and then there's people that have competence but don't have confidence and that's really just not recognizing themselves and the Reason why you have to go on that kind of hero's journey and face the ordeal is because it's doing that that prove to yourself that gives you the unshakable confidence because otherwise until you're tested like until let you say the you can do it in training and and that's fine. But until you're out in front of 90,000 people with Millions more watching at home when you You know that Stuart Pearce was ridiculed and Gareth Southgate was ridiculed and whatever for fluffing the the penalty we've all that steak. It's knowing that you can hold your nerve in that moment. And there's nothing else that can put you in there. So the way that you really build confidence is by being tested but no one wants to test we like we all shirk from the but it's the test that's going to give us the confidence and you have to have the struggle to grow the competence and develop the confidence but a part of that has to do with to my mind a sense of fixity of purpose which is what athletes have there's a goal and you are not going to be detracted from it by the naysayers the you know, all the all the Temptations not necessarily people. All the things that can distract you from what you're about and that feeds into confidence as well. As I think they're related in the sense that that fixity of purpose. If you don't have confidence, you can't you can't hold on to that fixity of purpose because you are you are confident that you will get there that you will you will make you will reach your goal. You are going to sew the to me to me. My mind it's a number of things that are intertwined and it comes down to your sense of your resolve. Yeah, and that's why it has to be something you really care about. It has to be something meaning because otherwise if it's if it's not something that you really care about there's no real Investments is no real fear. It was something else I was going to say, but I lost it. So are you saying that when we have more experience we develop competence and then we had when we have competence we feel confidence. Not necessarily. I think we should we should have confidence in line with our competence. So when we have enough competence, we probably may have confidence but with a don't always a lot of people have the competence but not the confidence and what was special person from having confidence if they're actually competent. Because sometimes for example, like like piece example, we might have done it in training but we might never have been tested and so we think can we really do it when it really matters or that's why I say, do you have to have that your experience? It's individual, but probably. I mean, it depends on the makeup of the person some people are naturally confident, but some people are confident without any reason and so so it depends but the real strong confidence comes from being tested yet. I've always been a great believer in beginner's luck as well as quite often. I find when I've done something for the first time you actually do a lot better at it. And then when you start thinking about it second time, you've been there you don't do it as well. But it happened to Carl Felton to me with bowling, you know, all these things as soon as you start thinking about everything starts going wrong. Yes, you just don't care. So you're like we and like you actually do. All right. So the kind of naivety of being a Like what the foal but not the fullness of bad, but just like you have that naive naivety like agile their space, but you don't have you're not doing you know, you're not undermining your own self confidence by having a standard to live up to us as well as the second time. You do understand it because you have to kind of be as good as you were before or else you'll so there's pressure on you as well. Anyways, yeah. Yeah. I think I mean golf came to mind when you said Add that is overthinking and yeah, then it just just kills it. And so for instance if you say like a new job, maybe you're not going to be overly confident because we still have a lot to learn but if you're in the job for a long time, like you're naturally going to get better as you learn from mistakes and you learn what to do better then you can be more confident. Yeah. I think you like the experience will give you confidence. Yeah. Yeah, definitely. Alan did you want to have no chance to read everything you've you put him did you that was just the comments from what you said earlier on? Yeah. Yeah, okay, I think relationships are a real area where when we feel insecure or we feel doubt that we look for a savior and we feel like okay. I'm really scared of doing this and if you know like if I was in a relationship with someone was really good at this then then they would take you know, you will be Easier it'd be easier is poverty. So I think There's a danger we're just kind of going from that is what kind of struck out was when you made the point about, you know, couple haven't shared friends and like an image coming to my mind not from personal experience. But an image comes into the mind of somebody being in a relationship with the shed and friends but like in the French, but not liking the person at the with and then I'm thinking to themselves. Oh I see. Barely be with this person, but I am because if it did then wore their friends than mine, but I do like that friendship. So it's like going back to the fear-based position and then obviously that relationship will more than likely end. They'll lose the friends and all the different aspects may be actually chosen stuff like that. So they have a lot of time on their hands and time. When you're by yourself can lead to a lot of in in with thoughts kind of and that patient could potentially going with because of the empty space that they've got within the life which used to be occupied by doing certain social events and stuff. So kind of what I was saying there was it is I think that fill in the empty space with constructive things to do with yourself. Building yourself into a better patient doing things shortage such as this where were with all learning, you know, even though you're the host you're still learning as well as for the people because we never stop learning every day and that that can that's a change of identity isn't it? But when embracing a new identity and we'll put more Focus even though it's not the shellfish which still it was still making ourselves the show Center in order to improve our lives and then ultimately improve the relationship when we were engaging. Yeah. Yeah, I think there is when you feel like that kind of grief after like a breakup say there is How you choose to heal? Is really important for your next relationship because if you can either become stronger from it. Or you can kind of shrink and become weaker from it and you look for the solution to save you. Or you can grow from it. You know really watching people go through breakups is the ones who there are people who is like the low point of their life and then everything changes and they become really strong from it and a some people are just stay stuck because they just don't want to deal with the fear of the grief. Alan mentioned an important thing the friends they the couple friends, you know, the friends of the couple many people forget that they were individuals before they became a couple and the friends that they had before. as a single person if you become part of a couple and you leave those friends you abandon those friends when you have to decouple And you really need support you have lost those people because you you were so fully committed and subsumed into that relationship that you gave up that part of yourself. And I think it's very important never to Lose Yourself completely into a really into a relationship or into a couple about being a part of a couple an established couple because as Allen says you run the risk of being empty when that breaks up and you can get into yourself so much that you run the risk of really enjoying yourself and I don't mean physically, but but mentally It's true. So we've we've come to the end of the so that's there's basically then that's that's then you see you've re-emerged with a new identity and that's basically the hero's journey. so  Okay, but are you saying that you've come out on the other side having conquered as the hero Erin? Oh, by the way, yes. It was always where we are. Are we I meant to say that I'm in say that and it's been actually there's been a lot of there's been a lot of flak over the fact that there's not a heroines Journey that the heroines Journey should be different. There is someone Dharma heroines Journey, but because there are there are other steps as well. There's like 24 in steps not all stories have all of them but it's there's meeting with the goddess. And so I mean this was written in the 30s 30s or 40s. So is inherently sexist. The Velvet Underground is that there Either I'm talking about heroines Journey basically the okay. Yes, so so yeah, actually I'll Oh Chevy images she can see that this is a cycle. So this is the so it's basically a circle is circle to you. You've left the Ordinary World with one identity. You've become Changed by the journey and you've returned with the gift. So it's so yeah return to where you were but changed. But then you've got I'm going to put a spoke into that wheel if you think that you have achieved everything and because you have returned with the Elixir and you have come back to the step change, you do not stop there. You have to continually evolve because you are on a treadmill so to speak things are always changing and if you don't keep changing you are stuck again. Yeah, I mean, that's really why is that Star Wars has so many different episodes and the Matrix has about four. Yeah, I mean, this is one Journey for one thing. So yeah, it's not done for life, but it's about you know, what's the next step was the next stage and Rob Rob would you say The Elixir is like some kind of inner wisdom or something. Yeah, I mean, yeah, the bigger it was all Noble Truths the Eightfold Path the the whole Enlightenment for Jesus. It was his story there change the world but what would have been a little more normal? So like rocky rocky is about showing that anyone can do it and in his own way they've got guns is Reading that message that you're more than you you could have been so. Yeah, it's it's showing right so stop that meal, but it's showing that there's yeah as Alan says infinite game. Yeah, it's this there's some benefit not just to you. Oh, I see. So so also, I mean if you're going to talk in a relationship basis, you are a better partner. You're going to like call your partner to a higher standard so you can have a better relationship. You're then going to model that best relationship, which is then going to have impact for other people who are inspired by what they see you're going to bring back so much confidence and knowledge that other people are going to Like recognize blood people recognize when you know something and so yes, it's all that benefits.

 But so I think that's that's the hero's journey. It's kind of it's a lot to take in and this I think the structure is brilliant and it's relevant to all of us, but it's seeing how it's relevant. Because we we don't we can often see if we were to look at other people. We can see the stages we can see. Okay, you like you have it all there you just do it, but for ourselves, I'm just going to mute the music system back background. So we We can see it in other people but we don't always see in ourselves and that structure is telling us that everyone is going through the same thing all of us. We're scared of different things. We have different challenges, but all of us face that Terror all of us face that fear all of us face that uncertainty and anxiety and in our own ways and and the I think one of the key points of the hero's journey, is that while you have that Mentor that you meet that gives you the initial confidence. So when you think Morpheus you think Yoda you think Dumbledore there's a point and Gandalf. There's a point where they can't go any further. There's a point where Harry Potter has to go off and on his own is a point where Rock Steps in the ring and he you know Mickey can't be. Oh Mickey dies where he has to do it on his own and there's a point where Luke realizes that okay, like Yoda is giving him all this wisdom, but he still has to do it and Neo realizes like he's at the point. Where is him when Morpheus is he has to save Morpheus and and it's there's no one there in David goggin stems. No one's coming to save you ultimately that's the lesson we all have to to recognize. I mean, it sounds quite half. Like I think there were at that point where you saying, no one's coming to save you. Well, we don't want them to I think that's part of the lesson. We don't want it. We don't want to be shaped because that would make you a victim wasn't it? And we don't you want something it would but when you read Go ahead and you really you really just want an easy solution you sell for someone saving and okay, you're right. It is like we have to go through that and when we only tend to go through that when we have to because I've always we're looking for. the solution we're looking for someone to give us the solution and and when you look at like Diet I look at diets as been an example of this. Did the secret of data is quite simple like you eat less than you you eat less than you use. And yet none of us want to accept that we all want to still eat the chocolate. We still want to have the treats and so we look at the thousands in the millions of different diets because we don't want to accept that basic truth and in the same way when people get scammed with get-rich-quick when people get scammed with some Romeo who fleeces them or some Yeah, like someone who scams them. It's because we wanted to leave in some simple solution. Is that is that a difference between see you tonight talking about faith and delusion? Yeah, yeah, probably. I mean we don't we don't really know. Until we have evidence whether we have faith in something but why are we putting faith in it? If we put in faith in because there's evidence then we're on better ground if we put Faith in it because of blind fear and hope or greed then that's where we going to become vulnerable. So I was I would I would say that face would be not so much a In space it's more. It's because basically when you turn this on everything down and everything is an idea, isn't it? It's an idea to be frightened about something. It's an idea to be secured about something. And it's also an idea to be delusion delusional about something and I think that is definitely a fine line between delusion and States, but there's also a fine line between delusion and theater as well. I suppose delusion could be argued that Santa that's never going to be taking up tunable. So you were talking about the Quick Fix The Fad with in the diets that and that will be delusional to assume that you can still eat all the chocolate and put more calories into your body than you been enough and expect, you know, the to be no change or to be reduction in weight. Technically that will be delusional or you've got the placebo effect. Fifth Avenue where I see an experiment a couple of years ago where there was a load of a cohort of ladies who were suffering from really low self-esteem and they were given like a nicotine patch but obviously wasn't nicotine. It was a certain chemical that was on the arm for two weeks and when they fell particular the the robbed the patch as you would a nicotine patch and the interview the lady Is before some of which wouldn't come on camera because they were too shy and then he did an interview after and out the cohort to lose 80% and of the ladies who reported an increase in confidence. Some of them couldn't look in the mirror now decode some of them couldn't talk to strangers now the cat some of them didn't put makeup on because they just hate that how they lock that such a and And they were all asked at the end of the experiments, you know, what the consider pitchin this new product and as I say 80 percent said yes, and it turned out that the product this plaster that they put on their underarm literally was just the plaster. It had no special including ingredients in it whatsoever. It was just a normal sticking plaster, but the placebo effect generated the healing or the impression or more importantly the belief that it was something that that that it essentially wasn't so it could be delusional that plaster and it also could be delusional that it isn't or the fact that these ladies believe that it could I think influenced their decision because ultimately it have no magic powers or 80% of them you probably you know different if spot on the open side of the brain of an improvement. Yeah, it's really about. In it like the stage with a mentor is really about you think that you need something and yeah, see you need something to believe in. But ultimately what it's really about is you transcending you transcending that that's like a bridge it's like a bridge and so delusional in a sense like like we talked about dating games and all those two. Things and when you look at the rules rules has probably thousands of people that say how great is the something that does exactly the opposite will have will also have people saying how it got them in relationships and things like that. It's not the actual Like it can be the most offbeat ridiculous set of rules, but if someone believes in it that can be enough. And so sometimes even the I mean like the secret things like that is I mean, I mean, I think the secret is for me. It was it was terrible that the way that it was done and I know the law of attraction and I've heard abrahamic some things like that, which is a much different version, but there are people who who believe in that and because they believe in that that gives them the confidence and I'm people pay like 5 or 10 grand to go and see Tony Robbins for this like hyped up State because that gives them the confidence and that can be a solution. Isn't it? Isn't it? Sometimes about delegation of responsibility? Yeah. That's what I'm thinking. You want I think sometimes I use that as a as an excuse not to have to do it because I haven't got that thing. So it says if I'm I'm sort of kicking that can down the road that I don't have to do this now. We'll make that decision and I think I'm so sorry. Sorry I missed I didn't hear the first bit when you didn't have. I'm certain it's about it's about like delegating responsibility. So by having that object that you're saying that you're missing you're delegating responsibility to something else that that thing is in charge it determines whether you will succeed or fail and if you don't have that thing and you don't have to make that it doesn't matter if you fail or something, I think I'm going inside myself up here, but it's got I'm gonna relating it to Alan was saying about about Because I think it's something that I too certainly when I'm on dating sites and stuff. I don't I always kind of think I need something else I supposed to do something but I'm quite happy to do that to say. Oh, yeah. I don't want to make that decision now, but I can blame it on X. So it's kind of like I'm not I'm not using it. It's not fair thing going forward but it's just a thing going back to blame something I suppose but it can sometimes go forward as well. Maybe a psychological level. This is actually what I'm saying. It's one of the things I've noticed in my own behavior that maybe this is something I do as a defense mechanism. So the inside to prevent me from taking those risks, this is X. Yeah, I mean we use all kinds of games and so I think it's a thing of feeling stuck and feeling like you don't have the solution and I think only Robbins is a genius at creating the atmosphere where someone feels Like they can do it and it's like he manages emotions. He manages the energy so that someone feels that and you know, all of these different things can be they can be what someone believes in all just all just depends on the makeup. So Yeah, it's basically the placebo effect. If you feel that something has is going to give you a solution. So it's not saying like I've course this is medicine is a placebo effect that will work for so many people and then of course the medicine to to get registered and able to sell. Has to prove that it has a an actual effect not just a placebo effect. So, of course, there's Solutions and that that are going to be better but anything I mean you could literally put up. I mean people do celeries potions and things on eBay yard, and I still do but you know, there was someone selling a copper bracelet that give you eternal life or something and when I lived in East London. We used to get Witch Doctor business through the Earth. Yeah, I mean and there's a whole fashion. There's a whole cultural, you know, like this this Shaymin and and witch doctors and if you've grown up and you have that lathe, then that's powerful for you because that gives you the the belief but yeah, I think it could just be a lucky pants or your lucky tie or something. That's not there. Yeah, I mean, yeah, I mean if you've grown up with that like my family will come from Ireland. So there's very superstitious and so you like mine and you know is very believing these things. So, yeah, it's it's it's whatever gives you the spur but I think knowing knowing that those stages being conscious of it is helpful. Is it a fundamental human belief that we always feel that we are incomplete and that we need something from outside of us to make us complete or to be capable as in we're always looking for that Mentor that magic Stone. I think in a sense is essential when we're stuck with we're stuck alone because otherwise on a we start with limited by our own head we need that's why we need diversity. We need different perspectives because otherwise, you know, like groups you have group think when people just think the same and they all agree the same they make terrible decisions. So to a certain extent we do we do need it and that's As part of what why we're social we are social so we need so we do need people now I've gone off on a tangent, but can you can you say exactly the first part of the question? Well, I was just saying it seems that as human beings. We have a fundamental belief that we're never enough. So we're always seeking something outside of herself whether it's witches. Magic stones or a mentor or whatever but with the idea that nobody's coming to save us but we don't believe it until we have a mentor some sort of magic token. What I'm saying is as human beings we seem to have a fundamental belief that we're not enough. Yeah. Yes. I think I think that is the case and I think certainly culturally a lot of that is putting culturally just by the nature of how we how we Grow up, we grow up into a moving well, which we don't understand we're growing up to parents that in the best case don't have time in the worst case don't have the best of intent and haven't had the best start themselves. We so we grew up into a world that seems bigger than us particularly now rather than when we were in maybe a village of a hundred and fifty we Grow up feeling like powerless because we were a child in a world especially now you got organizations that are bigger than countries. You've got so much governmental control and we've got a school system that tells you that you're not good enough. So I think there's that but I think there is inherently the world is so big that we've always been scared of what's at the boundaries of What we know so it used to be that we were scared of the trolls under the bridge. We were scared of the the Pixies and the what which is Anna creatures in the forest. But now we've conquered the forests we're scared of aliens, and now we're starting to go into space with scared of zombies. We're scared of that we spirits in the beginning artificial intelligence. So we're always scared. And I think there's always a horizon that we the nature is that we can never be content because to be content would be to be dead like to not want anymore life is about expansion, you know, a plant goes from the greatest of the trunk it grows the branches grow sleeves. We always want more. So the nature of society is we always want more we want to expand we want to conquer the Lance explore new mirror lands, so I think there's an inherently something that we don't feel enough and part of that is a drive to evolve. And even if you look at the University universe is evolving and expanding I know that there's a point is going to constrict but all we've known is expansion. So yeah, I think I think there is something deep in us that And I and Joseph Campbell says that we don't really want you say we don't really want the basically what he says is we want the experience of being alive. And that's what pushing boundaries makes us. Do, you know where the wrong when you said that you can change an experience by applying a different narrative? What did you mean by that? Okay, so when someone has a breakup The devastated and really when you get to it. What a devastated about is. That day in the park what the person really meant to them was? Future happiness that they saw that they were their best chance of being happy and the fear that someone goes through after a breakup is the fear that they're never going to be happy and never going to be as happy again that they've lost something that they can never find back and the moment that they like how long does it take you to get over a breakup? There's all these people that say. Oh, well if the relationship was 20 years is going to take you ten years or it's going to take a half of them doesn't it takes a And it takes the second when you stop buying into that belief that because the relationships ended your futures ended and when you say okay that relationships ended but I can have better. I have better in my future and the moment that you have that belief. That's the change of narrative and when you when you have that belief it changes how you feel and so changes how you feel and you feel more empowered you feel more confident you feel stronger so you go out. And that creates the new reality. Does that make sense? Yeah, see you talking about reframing. Reframing is sounds a bit like okay, I'm going to use this tool and I'm going to reframe it, but I don't really have any belief in it. But what I'm saying is when you really believe in it, so yes, it is reframing but but not just verbally telling the story but believe in it deep so it soaks deep into you. We were talking earlier when we about the difference between illusion and that's the classic. and that's the way you know, like if you don't believe something and you believe something enough to make yourself believe if you see what I mean or but how do you change your beliefs art from through positive experiences or on I don't think you can you can't always think your way into these things and everything you can think yourself into problems figuring tell me you can tie yourself up in knots by thinking and you Because this is Lucia I need to go deeper. I need to go deeper and we'll so just random variables. Yes, I have how do you cause a shift in belief if you want to do that deliberately consciously as opposed to it just happening spontaneously. Okay. So so the lesson from the hero's journey is experience being tested being put in the tough situation changes you so the best way is To face your anxieties face your fears because so anxiety is all about the belief of what might happen or the fear of what might happen. And so when you face that anxiety, you're not you're never going to be anxious again about that now something whatever you do. So if you're anxious about this thing, right you can what people normally goes they go close to it and then they can shrink away. They got close to a check like and so it's like a fire and the closer they got they felt the heat of it and said they're scared of it. But the person that goes through it is past it. They no longer have that and they let They Don't Really they don't get you know from anxiety and all we have done our but what happens is it changes so you no longer have anxiety you might have the situation in might not go well and you might be a little bit embarrassed or It might go well, but usually once you've gone through the done the thing that you're anxious about you are no longer anxious and usually even if it doesn't go that well you feel a bit more confident because you did it and you feel a little bit better about yourself because you don't feel that victim. You can overcome your fear and just experience. Yeah, so we're always going to have fear and it's just about the willingness to face it. It's about Becoming comfortable living with fear and recognizing that you like Furious is protective device and really it's a biological thing to protect us from lions and whatever but we just have a nervous system. That's built for the stone age's in a technological society. And so we're stressing ourselves over things that are irrelevant. You know, the meeting government isn't going to kill us. Someone rejecting us. We're going to live is to saber-toothed tiger that we had to worry about and because of the nature of evolution. We haven't grown past that Primal Fear. Some it's important to talk about goals as well those and sundra and Alan of ment mentioned this as well and you'll sort of trying to test yourself and put yourself in those situations to help your son Graham. You need to mix up your goals, I think because obviously they're if they're a very good psychological effects in setting yourself easy goals because they can build confidence that you will see also need to sell set yourself some difficult as well in order to really take rest to learn with the experience. Because of its and it can be quite it's quite a challenge, isn't it? I think to set goals for yourself where you don't unless you're particularly good at cooking with failure. I suppose if you're sort of starting out putting your head back together again after something then you need to sort of you need some nice easy goals to fit as well. I think especially yeah. Well, it's I think you need a sense of purpose a sense of meaning that it means something to you. But what you what's really important about motivation is progress is being able to see progress and the thing like I'm at a moment like I don't figure out how do you show progress in a relationship? You see when people go on dating sites and in any like in any Cycle the cycle of change you go through the dip and there's always going to get worse and it's going to seem like hopeless and a lot and it's same with relationships relationships Jade Diamond talks about the deep and them before they up and most couples split at the dip. And it's because they don't expect it. And this is why I think the hero's journey is really important because all of the struggles we have in life are we're going to go through that date when you like when you learn to drive you go through that dip and it's like you never think you're going to get the hang of it. I'm sure like when you University or learning a careers, there's a time you can start a job and you like feel like the idiot in a room and you hate feeling stupid and not knowing anything and particular. Work some places and people try and set you up and it's like you you just feel like you're never going to get there and then but then eventually you do and it becomes comfortable though. One of the big problems in relationships is we don't have a metric to no progress because motivation is about progress if we feel that we're making progress. We're in coach. And this is what Facebook and all these kind of gamification and social media do is they show you your progress and so that you get that shot of dopamine and so that's why they're addictive but we don't always get that dating and relationships. So yeah, it's progress. Yeah, you've got to have some clarity of gold selling the to go for because I've always typically Society now the social media and all these things. It's all about likes. It's about things that don't really matter. But give you a quick hit and unless you have something some sort of goal. That's meaningful. Oil and a little bit deeper. You're not going to persist. And that's what people normally only move in pain. You know, it's a breakup that makes someone reevaluate their life and grow its the people I've seen row most is been after a breakup is been the people that have really hit rock bottom and they've been on like this journey. They had all this time, you know instead of having weekend. Crying moping about the house and whatever they were like or courses they were reading books and they were like, how do I fix this situation that I'm in and is those people that have really changed the level that they operate on? I'm sorry. What? What do you mean when you say gamification Okay, so So occasionally see so basically Facebook Snapchat is so I don't know if you've ever seen the social dilemma, which is quite a popular Netflix. So so basically whenever you do anything on Facebook The Facebook engineer engineers and this is the same Snapchat and all of those things are looking how can they make you feel good? So the price that someone pays on an advert on Facebook is determined on does it make you feel good and the ads that make you feel good and make you feel positive and therefore stay on Facebook longer a cheaper. So Things like the like button is to is to make you feel validated showing you. So I'm trying to think of it. Then I can anyone jump in with an idea of gamification. I know. It's like when you do Fitness and there's certain programs that give you badges Snapchat. I don't know if you familiar with Snapchat by the Snapchat Street or about giving you rewards for or so that you use the product. But it's basically making it into a game and wear it when they make it into a game when they give you points or they did likes or they give you something that makes you feel good that you get a dopamine here and get addicted exactly. Yes conditioning. Yes, so that you you associate and so it's like you associate with the like touching the phone like okay big bowl. Show of hands or hands up on the reactions who puts their phone down and then it's out for no reason.  I do sometimes. That's how the phone has got you. Like if you're there for probably like half an hour. He was just going to pick up your phone just because we've been programmed to  so that and I think the scroll function is designed to you move down you that action then becomes conditioned that you expect to be surprised and be shown new things by by the actor scrolling. Yes, we're looking at Pablo pavlovian response is then it's even a little bit more sophisticated than that. I think it's so yeah, it's provoked pavlovian. But what they found was I think was Skinner found that the most addictive was when you didn't know when you're going to get the reward a vote of Lothian every time you get a reward. The majority is when we don't know when you're going to get the rules and this is right people in toxic relationships, like narcissistic relationships why they get so addicted because they never know when they're going to get that high that someone's going to be lovely and then they're going to be horrible and they going to be horrible and people are hanging on because the next time they might get that high again, and that's how people get addicted to bad relationships. There's dangling a carrot and you don't know when you're going to be Table. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's like something sometimes like three times. You might get nastiness. But that other time you get like we will treat those the most special person in the world and that feeling they're constantly trying to what do I have to do to recapture that? That's the type of mental enslavement then. Yep. So you're talking about dating though.  I was just wondering like I was I don't know if you're talking about dating in particular bus for dating. Would you say like it's best to look for a girl. I like. I showed you maybe just allow it to happen naturally.  I don't know how to explain it. Maybe yeah, do you may not consciously die or just something like some people have the advice that you should maybe learn about dating and that's what I was thinking but then other people would say no, don't worry about dating just focus on yourself, and maybe you'll find the right person. And I'm not sure which was the best option. I think it would say that because you don't want to be desperate. You don't want to say like, oh, I need a girlfriend to make me happy. You need to I guess focus on yourself, but I don't know and I just wonder which is the best option. Is it to learn more about dating and relationships are is it focus on yourself? Maybe if it a ball, it's both. I think the sense that yeah, you don't want someone to fill a gap. But wait it like the whole idea of it all just happened. Well what you really doing in dating like all of us whether you're dating or single or in a relationship, I everyone who's single is pretty much going to meet someone you're going to get in a relationship. but one reason to learn dating is so that you have Choice over who get in a relationship with so if you wait and you just there's going to be someone in two years that's going to come and you're going to find this person and think they're great but If you've already like filtered through 50 people and you're still going to meet that person, but you're better educated as to what's right for you. You're more confident. So it's both because you're if you're just if you're just looking for tricks to attract anyone as a girlfriend, then what's going to happen. The news is that you're not going to be at the you're not going to be at the stain that's going to maintain a relationship that's going to work. Yes. So in it you need to be strong capable confident yourself and then have the skills to know that on demand. You can go and find someone today because that's going to give you the confidence so that you're different in the relationship. You're not in a relationship because you need ear during the relationship because this is the person I choose to be with. not the person that just stumbled along and I'll settle for Yeah makes sense. I think it's good to learn more about dating like to learn. Yeah. Well, I mean I look at it. Is that basically there's three things in life. There's a career in terms of success and there's love and belonging and there's meaning and for a career you're going to spend three to nine years probably. Raining even maybe Jason just to get into a career. So that's actually is a relationship. Yet we expect a relationship just comes along. Yeah, and that's where I think we are flawed that I think we never invested in relationship knowledge in knowing what makes relationship work because if you look at any other area where there was a 55 percent failure rate, we know everyone would say there's a systemic problem, but with relationships everyone thinks 55 percent failure rate is individual error Yeah, I agree with you. Actually, it was my original idea. But you know, sometimes you hear like con contradictory advice some people might say like, oh you're better off not thinking about it or just happened. But I think it's better to always be proactive. Thank you know, yeah, I think there's a grain of Truth in it in the sense of like you're in the stage of being not looking so you're not overthinking it it's kind of go back to what Too bad. I'm thinking and I think Alan Alan said in the chat as well as really being clear about why you want a date like I think and again likely said like having the goal is just really being consciously in control of your life and knowing and I think this is this is the real lesson is that relationships are under your control. It's about knowing what you have to do in order to  Like knowing what's the next step? And I think the problem is first of all, we don't have a relationship not body of knowledge that really sufficient enough or developed enough. And the other thing is that people think how I got I'm going to read a relationship of what do you read? You know, you've got five love languages is communication. It's just an element. You've got the government's relationship building again. Just an element. You've got 18 books. You've got men are from No from Venus. Yeah, that's basically communication is male-female Dynamics and we're talking about standpoint Atkins next week, which is attachment Theory. But all of these are just tiny little strands of relationships. And so people think oh, yeah. I read this book. I know it's just one aspect. Yeah, that's that's a very complicated like it is because it is really a project like a career with the project. Yeah, you have to like if you're looking for this make sense like you need to kind of study a little bit like, you know. About relationships thing you need to learn like scuzz. I heard like some people like you said like when I've heard some people can be in relationships, even though they don't really even like the person but they're just afraid to be alone. They don't just wanted they don't like themselves. So they feel like I need to be around someone all the time. Yeah. I've been in I've used to have physical groups like this and I've been in a group which was it was difficult relationships between interned. Out to be people in the in physically abusive relationships and they were going back and they go. Well, what do you do? I've Got Friends on dating sites of that would be alone and they would rather be in a physically and emotionally abusive relationship and understand the fear that they felt that that was their only option. And that's the reason to learn how to date has the relationships because so that you'll never trapped in that they They recognize them. I don't know if it's true. But I heard someone say like that. Those people are in those kind of relationships. Sometimes they have like maybe a bad childhood like that the best relationship with their parents and stuff. Yeah. He is usually a vulnerability. There's usually a vulnerability in the and it's the person that they meet activates that and and the context. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, which is why it's really important. Went on the other thing to work on yourself as well. Because if you have a vulnerability vulnerability comes from like if you have toxic beliefs, then you get toxic relationship. So the clearer that you are and stronger that you are the more you'll expect and demand And people will give you the minimum that they have to in a relationship. Yeah. I think we can all it's difficult because like I read a lot of you know, President Obama very interesting person apartment. But I feel like you have to read things to apply rather than just read things just for information because I think we can all will not maybe we can't but I think obviously fall into the Trap of just reading books, but it just absorb the knowledge you can sort of get like this mental constipation where you think too much about it and then you don't actually do it and I think that when it comes Anything in life that is sort of value. You have to be willing to sort of take a few punches. And I think that the strength in relationships just comes from the strength within yourself because as you said Rob, you know, you have to basically have a large Square self-worth. I just don't believe that relationships can truly be successful unless each person has a large degree of self-worth because I just don't see how it would actually work. Yeah, yeah, that's true. Yeah, I think I look here relationship in a relationship. The basic building blocks of relationship is people and it's like a take the relationship is the table on the people and everyone says like for the relation you sacrifice for the relationship, how can you sacrifice for the relationship when the relationship doesn't really exist is the dynamic between them and so the only thing that matters is the individuals. If you have one, you know that isn't strong and concave and it's just going to collapse and it's all going to drain on the other person and the other person. I mean you have to be superhuman to keep it going and why the thing I would say about personal development books is that Yeah, I think that you know, they need to be practical because a lot of them are just theoretical and a lot of them are. For the shit. I mean really that's the witch doctors again. I think that's what I mean. When you when you look at business Godfrey said I'll make you a love potion. Is it a lot? I mean they all have the same stories. Let's go and then you'd be better off reading Jane Austen or something really know. Well, I know I know his heart are all there are some that but I'm what I'm saying is there's more practical but a lot of them. Them particularly like the aces ones they all they all tell the same stories. They like Napoleon Hill whose like glorified was nothing more than really a Salesman who basically his principles were He looked at what was the top-selling like this the sermons that brought in the most and he just basically he found what the crowd Pleasers were and way to them a lot the stories that keep getting repeated verbatim from from one boat to another as gospel trees have never even happened like what the one about goals be written down. So there's this story and they say he was in yell of People write down their goals and you have to write down your goals because this studies showed that three percent write down their goals. And those three percent were worth more than all their arrest never happened. Yale University said like I don't know where they're getting it where this is coming from. We've never done this and yet it's so one reads someone else is and we'll listen to someone's speech and they all add it in in their books. So I've never found that. It depends. I mean, I'm not saying there's no value in them. But some of them again in the same way that we would gamified some of some books. So Napoleon Hill for example was a major one is designed to design to what people want to read. As much as so it depends. I mean, I'm not saying that's true of all there are lots of goods personal development books, but they need to be based in like you said, they'd be biased in something that you make sure like different. So a lot are purely aspirational. There's like the secret. Sorry, like like I think the secret is just I'm not saying that the Law of Attraction there isn't something to it, but the way that it's portrayed and just thinking this will come true. Yeah, I think in that sense. They're not necessarily always grounded. Don't you run the risk of over reading this thing? If you're not careful and then being totally confused if you're not careful because there's just so much literature and I know that there are some people who have written books with no basis in terms of training or anything, but except maybe personal experience and while that may be good and might give you some insights for somebody who's really seeking. How do you navigate through this Maze of trash some fairly good stuff and really excellent stuff that can give you good tools. What I'm getting at is you know, there's just so much out there. How does one find the right things that will genuinely help you without having to delve into all of that such as well and get confused and go off on tangents and have contradicting information that you have to sort through to me. If you're not careful you can end up being worse off than you were when you started. I think it's like a leash. I said I think you have to apply it get attached some tested. I think for me. I think what really determines what we do is I have it's so there's lots of great books on habits like BJ frogs. Lab in Stanford and he's published some things and then change clears developed same kind of ideas. So I don't I don't think that even the most high P stuff like like the paling Hill has many people would say that's changed their lives and it's was the springboard and so there's value in it if you if it gets if that's the thing that you believe in but yet there are there is a danger in getting lost in The Narrative that they have without I think it comes down to there are people like in any field there are people that You can you can kind of tell them that like the people who are the way that they want to sell you is they'll have this kind of like video sales page and now hype and now have the webinar where you're you're on there and they're going to promise you this and then you can get this if you get all these bonuses and things like there's a formula for selling. People and it basically the premise of it is you're too weak you need this. and so they is kind of preying on weakness. So I think anyone who does that you you can so see what their intentions are. I feel like with anything that you've got to chew them up and spit out the bones like I would I don't think I've ever read a personal development book and thought yeah, I'm good and I relate to every single thing that this person is saying because we have our own experiences in life, but I think that sometimes you just have that one thing by just resonates with you that you can sort of take away, but for myself I have books recommended to me. I'm a mentor so I don't pick them up myself because obviously such as what you've said Sounders you can get lost in it and my because there it is part of life where I want to achieve and they are helping me to do that. It makes sense for me to take that sort of a bias because it's like a tailored approach to self-improvement, but I wouldn't just go out and just buy any book because you know, I do agree what's been said that you can get a lot of Shams out there. There's loads of Shams I say this because I had that experience with a with a young gentleman who was working in my family company and he came on board and he wanted. Some books to read and he was asked to speak to me because I read a lot and I said to him. What are you looking for? What do you like to read personal development books? I said, do you read anything else? No. I said that's all you read. Yes, and that's what he wants I said, okay, so and he gave me some names of you know. Authors that he particularly likes and stuff and I said, okay, let's do something a little bit different. How about you? Yes, you find out personal development book that you like to read, you know Robins or whatever and you and I recommend some books and you choose one of them and read them along with that book as well and he couldn't do it. He couldn't do it. He's just because he and I figured that he felt that he needed this he needed to get everything that he could get out of everybody's insights in how to improve himself because he thought that he was not good enough and he needed he needed this constant diet of these books, which I found to be quite this. He learned the the focus and the it was just very narrow focused. There was nothing else in his life that he knew he wanted to learn anything about it was just about that and I thought that that was even further restricting him in terms of what he was he could learn about life in general because he just would not read anything else.  I think sometimes sometimes though because I mean when I was growing up when I was young, I read lots of personal development books and sometimes and sometimes I can be right for the stage that you're at and it's not necessarily the books have value. But that leads you to either you you see something beyond that or Or like also I think you can only get lost in it so long, I think sooner or later you're going to sort it's not going to work. He thought that that was going to make him successful. That was the bottom line. Okay. It wasn't so much about relationships. It was about success and building himself up to being a successful person in his career and being the best, you know being confident and being accepting Etc and He was going to shine at whatever he did and so he needed to read all of these books and so he would be devouring and I'm thinking to myself if you're on that treadmill. If you run the risk also of not taking the time to absorb some of the good points that you may be coming across because it's just this desire to be keep going through another book another book another book. hmm, that's rather than you know taking something and as you're saying your Mentos recommends books, but you take the time to go through and whatever resonates with you you absorb it you take the time out to examine it you turn it upside down and see if it fits with your you think about it you and see if it fits in with the with with what you are about but it's a treadmill of just reading a book after another book and another I don't know if Come a hodgepodge of all these various bits and pieces from all these different things that he's reading but I just didn't didn't pursue because he was also quite stubborn and I wasn't going to try to come Ben's what kind of books there I guess for me. If the person is like Curious he wants to take on new ideas. I don't see it as a bad thing. Like no that's not the point. The point is it that there's nothing else that comes into his his Consciousness and he's just reading and reading and reading and reading and I'm saying it's a different thing when you take the time out to absorb. What is in the book. Oh, it's like a continuous search. But even when you're looking for the treasure and you're standing on top of the treasure, you're not seeing it because you're looking ahead to the next gold post because you think it's over there. Yeah. I think I think in the same way that When we we we naturally you're going to eat junk food more nutritious food. We naturally going to go for whatever. He's in the same way. We're going to like we're going to be on Facebook rather than something deeper. And in the same way with books. We're going to we're going to gravitate to the ones that are lighter, but it's snowing. And I don't want to say like that for all I think there's a sense section personal development where it's like selling the American dream and it's selling or it's that kind of there's a certain genre of which is motivational without much else. But but again different things work for different people and there's you know that Everything has some grain of Truth. You just have to find a way to peer review things. Don't you for some people that could be you know talking about it, which is why I know it's good to talk through these ideas with other people. Doesn't it? See if they think they're obviously, you know, I've known people that have I've had friends who like the Allen Carr's stop smoking, but they had some my friends suddenly started banging on about that and they never even mentioned it these days have been other sort of cult ebooks that people read and they just Turn into weird Little Disciples. They said and I don't get it because I tend to stay away from those sorts of one's a lot of maybe the dating books but not the self motivation is I don't really know about self motivation in that if you know, you're discussing a sort of belief I suppose suppose what you say has been provided you have some way of looking at it. A lot of it's written in quite like pseudo science scientific language. It's tries to give it some sort of basis in reality and like you know, and Like psychology is a notoriously difficult sort of sight and to have experiments that actually have worth that's I don't understand what that sounds really bad basically but a lot of them are quite you're never quite sure what what the science is actually proving. You see what I mean there. Yeah. I like a lot of them don't stand up to the same scrutiny is say experiments doing chemistry or physics or something. Yeah. Yeah. I mean there's lots of different factors. So you can never quite know what your control yeah and review these things. It's kind of finest baby, isn't it? Yeah, I mean the real problem is is that you know, that is like for example that example of written goals where it's all recited as fact and if you really enjoy okay. Yeah one of us took every piece of advice Work it out what's stupid advice and what does to get advisors but he didn't and you generally do that by checking it with someone else to triangulate that yeah - you know, what do you think about this and then someone's like oh, yeah, it's rubbish and it's quite like Alicia session a you might say, okay. Well, let's try it and see what happens. But you run the risk of getting into you know, you must drink 8 glasses of water type of science. You have to be careful and how do you You assess that's that's that's a question. But you can either talk to other people about it and say like your friends or your family, you know, whether you talked about these things. That's what I thought. I'd ask them I'd say do you think this is stupid or not? I'm not so sure about that one. There are there are there are times when people aren't going to bleed like there is something valid that's something different and people maybe aren't going to be Believe you know around that but I think it's just I don't think he even read it and I don't think it's going to do you any harm? it's just this probably it's probably better sources, but sometimes it takes like reading through them to see that. But don't you run the risk of having some people hide behind reading the books rather than but then they would hide behind anything because of the G4 experience. But yeah, so what? You know, it just speeds up your learning doesn't as far as well as if you just go out and try and learn on the job. You're going to be standing on your partners for all the time. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I don't know - like the whole there are there are good books, but there's just a specific row that that is built to sell you more. and and That that's all good. It's like most things I don't I don't think you can lose by reading them. It's just if you take it everything and then you assimilate your and is how you make sense of it all. For an hour. I read everything all kinds of books and a bloke. Hey, sorry would you recommend like dating reading books about dating? Yeah. Well, we're doing one next week stand back stand back in y for dating. This Monday. Yes. Yes, you gotta wait to read it. So stands hacking wide for dating wide wired a wire don't want ya lad or white. Yeah. You know, if you're having some issues like which finding a good relationship I think reading the dating book might help to learn. Like how can you find the right girlfriend or something? I think right. Well my answer would be you have to Date quite a few have experienced to to be able to choose. Then it comes down to Choice it comes down to what kind of relationship do you want? And so then you're looking more at qualities. Then typically people look at is attractive. He's got yourself a Christie's but you need to look at the qualities that will create the ratio relationship that you want. So both in books like for men Neil Strauss is good. I think to read his two books is a good journey because one is see learnt. I don't know if you know your The costume he was something so familiar. Yeah, he was someone who is kind of nerdy and found these techniques to pick up girls and then basically have who wanted a name found its kind of empty and so it's worth reading both books. So this the game and the truth. Yeah, I think Mark Manson's got good one. Some of my models because like I don't know I like Jordan Pederson, you know, Jordan Pederson 12 rolls. Yeah. Yeah. He said something like There's a guy like he's afraid of like asking a girl out or something. So it's overcome his fear. He decides just go asking those women out on a date or something like that. well, you think about facing your anxiety is no longer anxious about it, but it's also going to be bad for your self-esteem because many girls will think you're weird and they'll say no they don't want yeah, but the thing of feeling anxious is feeling that the thing is really going to hurt you and what actually happens is okay. You might be a little acid but you're going to feel you are actually feeling worse for not asking because the cells talking inside is going to say like Rejection is really projection. They're not rejecting you. They're just rejecting you you as a Supporting Cast in their story. So if you feel it's rejection is about you it means that you're making yourself the mains star in their story. So the rejection is not is projection as because really what you when they're rejecting you what they're really saying is you don't fit into my story of his going to make me happy and what you're saying is they're rejecting you saying you're not good enough for me. You're not good enough. And so that's why we caption hurts because you're telling yourself a different story than the reality that there is. Yeah, there's like, you know, you're not going to be like compatible with everyone, you know, so like yeah makes sense. It's not necessarily compatible because a lot of women are ruling out people for stupid reasons and like woman's problem is filtering so that they may have let's say whatever they have. Typically women will go for top 30% intelligence top 10 20 % of looks and often six foot or over. So just six foot or over is 14.1 percent of the population. Then when you hold that down to like top 30% top 10% you've got a tiny Market of men that all women are going pretty well. Most women are going for And so that's why it seems so competitive that there are people who are more attractive who are more asthmatic who probably are more like to play the field because they have more Choice. They're probably going to get a treat people worse and none of those factors that women are feel shame for relate to a long-term relationship. I guess after a year two years. They don't really like look so much less important. It's kind of like shallow, maybe like something. Yeah, it's shallow, but it's shallow because people have no more knowledge to base their judgment on and so what what everyone is doing is dating by default and when they by default you date on Instinct and your instincts are Lead You astray or they get a lead you Like it's just a mass of dating unless you've worked out the mouse. You've put yourself in a corner way, you're with all these people. So that's why women hang on for six years for someone who's never going to commit to them. Just hoping which goes back to the conditioning thing where of taking less than they should from men because they're more attractive men. Yeah, and so so for women it's about changing their filters for men. It's about learning dating like rejection as a man. You're going to get rejected over and over and over again and lots of men give up and get better because of that rejection, but the rejection is the game everyone's getting the rejection and your hero's journey is to go through that rejection and And just put your emotions aside, you have to learn to deal with the emotions and know that it's just the process and and of course the other the other side of it is most men don't know has preset themselves and I had to message properly how to have conversations and so like we are looking at the skill or dating like the eighth. That is Twenty Eight twenty percent of gets 80% of the results. That's when you present this message knowing how to message and that's actually I'm going to we've been running a basic course, but we're going to do a bigger thing on baking messaging. It's interesting to me because as a man, I don't know maybe maybe women see things differently, but for me, I don't like messaging is just messaging. I don't see what the big deal. Liz like they don't like they just might just say like Hi, how are you? Just make some small talk and like I don't care if I make some spelling mistakes and stuff like that, but maybe for the woman they don't like that. I don't know Gavin. Let me stop you right there. Do not start a message. Hi and leave it alone and expect to get a response. What is wrong with you? No, no. No, you can't just say hi. If it blank High, what what does that mean? I'm not going to respond. I don't have not to me says that you are inarticulate. You cannot you you have what you need to present yourself to me. I'm using words to judge you. Hi. What does that mean? No, no, no, no, no tell know I just I just say like Hi, how are you? And then they were like reply good person. Hello? Hello. So and so I feel very passionate about this. You see because I have just blank so many people with this. Hi. Hey, hi. Hey, what the hell come on David, it's me. It's stupid as girls do that. If someone sends you a message and they say hi. What you should do is go to the person's profile look at the pictures and if you don't like the person okay fine, you don't have to write back. But if you like to look at the person, I you like their profile. You should reply like And if you don't like the message degree, you are presenting yourself. It's like you are setting out for an interview and it's not an interview but you're introducing yourself and personally if I'm standing in front of you you would make an effort to be pleasant high on a paper by itself. You have not even taking the effort to find out my name which I cuz I always do when somebody says hello to me. I find their name, even if it is not. Not the real name, but that's what they've presented and I say hello. So and so and if they say, how are you I will respond. But all I'm saying is that that is what is First Impressions count and if you can only say hi then High what what am I going to say? Hi back to you and that's it. We can't that's a conversation death right there, but don't get me wrong, and I'm I don't know. I'm Amber son to point Q. I'm just trying to I'm just trying to be helpful as a female helping you to understand us. That's all and I guess from a male perspective. It doesn't make sense. Maybe it's because men and women have entirely different dating experiences. So so for a lot of women their biggest job is not to message. Someone is to deal with that in Box being filled and their inbox has been filled by So when you say hi or Hi, how are you if you think about that, what have you really done?  you just what do you mean? What if you don't I supposed to shake then you probably messaged hundreds of other girls. So they don't take her seriously. Basically, what you do is you put in your bait out and you see in his reactor. So what you've shown them is I don't care enough about you to write any message. I'm I'm waiting for you to start off the message. Yeah, because they have to because what you've done is you've passed the bark so that they have put the effort in and a woman that's busy and has lots of You know, possibly when you're looking at demographics, you probably may have kids so she may have a busy life. She's probably working then she's got hundreds of men and what you're looking for is more investment than she's going to give you and it's not the because what you're thinking your view and I understand your view your view is like, okay. Well if she's interested should live but she won't because he's got a hundred of men like you sending. The same messages. How do you feel after that? So that's that's why message is the key. Gavin's coming from because I mean as a guy, you know, I you got to appreciate going when you know in a pub in wherever the women the women in the pub or whatever. They are. They getting hits on all night. Bye guys, and how many times as a guy because I'm the same how many times you get a hit on in the night when you go out never it never happens as it but for a woman it can happen ten times a night but Good friend said to me. I'm an old lady on a meetup group. Actually. She said my daughter would love you. She's been made better treated by her husband and all this business. She's trying to set me up with a daughter and then she saw me on a few more meetups and she said you're such a nice guy and she said the trouble with you and it's the same when you going you're chasing and what you need to do is sit back relax, because what's it like trying to chase the butterfly you never catch it, but the butterfly will come to you but let them come to you. You know, it's not About selling yourself too hard, but I agree with Rob, you know, it's great. If you're a good-looking guy six-foot-six the women are chasing you all the time, but for people I cuz you not think about six you're not you're not like Tom Cruise. Yeah, you know and it's difficult. Well, let them come to you and they will because you sound like a really decent bloke to be honest with you. They'll come to you mate. But the thing is the thing is that they're not going to find you because if it's an attractive woman She hugged like okay, so Estella and Sondra. What's your experience like on dating? Like how much searching do you do as opposed to on Alicia? I'm not sure if you can better leave and see your camera, but what's your experience like? I'm dating sighs. My personal experience is that now? I just go for the guys who like me first. And the only reason I do that is because I feel like with man. I personally believe with Matt and so I once that it's important for them to I want to say initiate, but that's the only reason because I feel like a man has to decide that he sees something about you, but he likes because for me My experience I'm happy to sort of if I see something I got talking to a guy and I see something about his character that I like. I can quite easily sort of, you know fit in where he sort of art because I'm not really too particular on what he looks like or what he does for a living. It's more about who he is as a person and I feel like sometimes and this is just what I found is when a girl is very forthcoming. It can put some guys off and also there is a lazy element as well because I'm not even trying to toot my own horn. I do just think it's a male thing. They do like a lot of women. So my inbox you said Rob is full and I have a job of you know, going through all the messages and it's just easier as well just to go through the guys who you know already see something about you that they like So someone says he like just a how are you you might not even bother clicking on their profile to see you have you have a lot that you can pick up from a person's profile, even if they don't try to a lot looking at their pictures like picking up something and you can start a conversation with that that would will create or attractive woman like you paid attention to something and you picked on that to start a conversation with them just a Hi. How are you? He's just Just very random. It won't really be captivating to continue a conversation because it's probably going to manifest like okay, we are going to get short and answers from this or not a very interesting conversation. So even I because I haven't used apps that the guy actually comes to me. I have to initiate and even when they don't write a lot I always pick on the details and I tried to find as much as I want or that I'm looking for from that. And then I write to them using those things a Hi. How are you won't really set me off for a good start with them. I don't think that a guy would be very interested. I don't want a guy just to be interested for me like for my looks only because that's nothing. Yeah. I got the guy. How are you is pretty generic and I yeah, II wouldn't be enthralled if a guy just I mean obviously guys haven't I just think if you see something you like about what you see you've gone to the trouble of messaging in the first place. There should be something maybe a little bit more. They've had like my name like Sandra said like even just my name. Yeah like hi Alicia. How are you? I can tell by your pictures that you like exploring like hiking or whatever. I do like that. What was the last place you visited something? You can always speak on something and just start a conversation. Studies more interesting that are just ior you that own personal message if I got a message like that, I'd be like Oh, I'm quite I mean I have worries and no but even I'm not too because I understand that with guys, sometimes they can be a bit. You know guys aren't always great with communicating like I do understand that sometimes guys feeling the back but especially when it comes to messages with guys, it's better to meet them in person because the it's just the nature of am and what I've found but if a guy I said that I really scared. Hey, okay, I've got if I put my inbox and I see six messages for example, and I see three with high delete and oh, I'm sorry because I am busy I've got lots of things to do. So those three out I don't even bothered. Hi come now when I get a message, for example, I've got a pal in India. And his opening line to me was he he's a businessman and English his English is not very good. And so, you know, and he would really like to talk to somebody who's who's whose first language is English. So we had a thing to start off with and we still communicated. We're just friends online. There is nothing no, no, no, no hint of any romance or Anything but we've developed this kind of friendship where if he has something I need rights it he said does this is this right and I will but all I'm saying using that as an example to say is that he gave me a hook to respond to to start a conversation and feel comfortable. Right? But high if you have to filter out people and Gavin, that's what I have why I'm saying if you make a little bit of an effort and it seems So to the person it will connect you know, and they respond to you but high from half a dozen or dozen men in two dozen messages, they are going to be put to the pile because the ones who had a little bit more effort just your name. How are you today? I am so-and-so blah blah just a little bit of something. We will respond my Doesn't give us anything. it's like you have to like always put in so much effort in a relationship. I thought why can't you just be yourself and to be accepted for yourself? You can but you what you have to you have to be yourself, but sort of the best that you can be the best the only impression someone's going to get over you online. So let your Messiah is difficult for men. But the way that you level up is from your fallen from your messages because so let's try and impress women with no ice no impress but it's the way that your message is that you get commonalities, which is commonalities leads to conversations. And when you have common when you have a good conversation, that's how they'll at least a connection and then that's what can you're not always going to develop the relationship because you shouldn't always like depends on whether it's going to work but The way that you initiate is you stand out by giving the best conversation and it's not the you impress them. It's not like you have to pretend like you can do these tricks and techniques but they won't work because sooner or later you get it's based on light and that's the thing like this. Sometimes you can get into a relationship and you're trying to like maybe impress the woman or sure that you're so you're very good at communication. You're going to do this and that but later are they going to find out like, okay, you're fine adjust. You're not this isn't the real new like, you know, yeah, so just be yourself you should but if what you need to do is for example, like Sandra was talking about the message from the man. She had a context because he said that he wasn't very good at English. And so she was forgiving of of those things. So I mean asked I asked the girls If someone was to say look, I'm really not that communicator, but I'm interested in them to I'm making an effort. How would that be? That's fine. You've given you've given us something to start to start a conversation because the first thing you would be you would feel some sympathy for the person and you say oh he's being very honest and you're starting on an honest footing so you you know, you would You would not want to you would be sympathetic. So you'll be very kind to that person. What what what a woman's really looking for and tell me if I'm wrong is someone who's interested in them someone who's willing to put in some effort and you don't have that you it doesn't have to be dazzling. He doesn't have to be Shakespearean. It just has to show an interest is she has to show some effort. The building has no answers to this come easily for the man. They want to what you're okay. So men do this and you're looking from your perspective, but what you have to understand is ma'am want to treat women like men and women want to treat men like women and it's two completely different versions because it's going to completely different experiences and Men and women are looking for different things from relationships and you have to understand it's understanding what they're looking for what they need. Not necessarily were they looking for but what they need what they need like a typically a woman needs to feel safe secure loved nurtured and a man is more not that he doesn't need to feel that there is more looking for feeling respected and significant and important to them. And so what you have to understand? is like okay. So when you say like communication is difficult. Is communication difficult because you don't understand what they look what they want for or because it's you don't want to make the effort to do it. Oh, you mean about the messaging on dating sites and in a relationship because what a woman wants is to know that you are willing to put the effort because if you're not willing to put the effort into a message this is what a woman's going to say if he's not willing to put the effort in the message he's not going to make an effort in a relationship. He's not going to make an effort in bed is he's not going to be someone we can sustain a relationship with he's going to want me to cook for him. He's going to want to take his pleasure and not worry about mine. He's going to not care about me. So the message I think you're say you were saying the message. The message is an indicator of what a relationship is going to be like with you. Okay, but see you're right when you said like at the Wonder dating site. I just cast a wide net and like, you know, like you're fishing you just chart and you just say hey, how are you? One and you just see who's going to write back and if they don't write back then it's not a big deal like good. That's why they done right back. I said don't write back because what this what what what it feels like is all I want is a woman. I don't care worker who she is. I just just shut up and do what I want. Yeah, whichever response. It's like a fish that let's spawn in time put Out millions of eggs hundreds of thousands of eggs and hopefully one or two will leave your throwing or your highs and higher lows across a wide network of women and hoping that one or two will take the bait and all but what I'm saying to you and you have to forgive me, I'm a lot older than you are. So I am more particular think of the discussion that we've had this evening where we We are at the stage where we are not going to spend a lot of time. Just hoping and waiting. We know what we want and time is getting short. So we are moving fast through this thing. So therefore you would not qualify with that high. That's the point. So if you if you put a little bit more effort in in terms of your greeting and I don't care if your cut and paste the new greeting and just change the name in and send them out, but I think you'll have a better. Response because it would say to me. I can't apart from your pictures which I don't know if they're really you but we receive that there are you so that is not going to be like a personal greeting in person. Where were two people see and I say, oh, oh God he is so gorgeous. But God he's inarticulate but he's cute. I don't mind being seen out with him because he's just so fine. Okay now we don't don't know any of that. We don't know what you sound like. We don't know if you've got the highest pitched voice or very low baritone. So the only thing that we can see of you is what you write on the paper. So it has got to be something that gives us something to hold onto. I heard like manner more than more like visual Maybe. Yeah, her men are more visual so men can look at the women's photo and tell a bit about the women just by their photos that photo may not be her. I will so be careful. I want that super power. I want to look at a man and see all these potential. Seriously. I want that give it this way Ryan. Sorry and if you write a hundred messages saying hi. Hi Hi, how are you? And you send a hundred messages out tonight say after you've been on air yet only a fish or something. You're going to get probably 20 will reply 80 won't even give a toss. Let's just delete it like Sandra the other the other 20 will reply. I know those 20 you might meet I don't know seven or eight you might meet them. It's going to cost you 50 Quid in drinks because they're not asked if they're going to require to hire. How are you? They're not a serious life partner Riley, but if you took the time just one night. To right? Oh, you feel put it in notepad, and there's no harm in copying and pasting it because it's you're not telling lies. I you're not telling lies to them. You just you don't have to sit and write every night. You just copy and paste it send it out to a hundred and out of the date. She get from it one. One of them will probably be a serious Contender. Oh, you know, you have a good crack at it. You know, it's worth a try, isn't it? It's good. Yeah. It's just because I'm 20 years older than you and I've been there might have been. it The thing is that this is more effort, but not many many of her name. Yeah, and so if you're the one like so I mean I started dating it had no response and you like far from you know, the best-looking man, but because I could message I could I always was always able to find people on dating sites and so being able to message. There are some women that are just going to look on looks and they're going to you know like that the criteria they're going to go for but then there's a lot that are less interested in looks and it's just about the person. Yeah. I had a gentleman on a side just just just the usual just scrolling through and he took the time to put a series of photographs together. and they were fantastic and I had to say something the and one in particular was a black-and-white photograph and it was of him and a tree and just the background and it was so artistic it was beautiful and it wasn't and I had to write something in response to it because it was just a lovely photograph and I you know, you think so if that person has that kind of sensitivity and could come up with and put this portfolio together. There must be interesting them must have an interest there must be in you know to have an interesting conversation with that person not looking for that is necessarily going to be a boyfriend. He could be a you know that Phil under or whatever don't know any of that but would want to start a conversation with him because of what he's put forward. Yeah. Yeah, I got to give it another try. Anyway, maybe update my profile and stuff. and what do you guys think about you know before they used to have any dating sites people used to have to talk to the women in real life. Like maybe you meet a woman and you have to talk to her and ask her if she went over coffee, like people don't really do that anymore and Do you think people should still do that? If people aren't doing it as long as it's you know, we had this last last week or the week before as long as it doesn't make someone feel uncomfortable then it makes you stand out. Yeah. I think as long as you're doing it. In a way, that's not creepy. That's not that comes across as genuine and sort of above board. But obviously it's going to be the lady that I'm gonna be able to answer you better. Yeah, you like it's good. I mean  It depends I believe that it depends on Ava type of man and what he wants for himself because I mean men are pretty visual so they probably want to get a good look at you in real life as soon as possible. Anyway to know what you're really about especially with like the energy but there are some men who are on dating sites. You just want to message a girl and that is literally all they want to do because you know, some men are still technically in a relationship. They just want to Bear the tension not be an obstacle. Put towards that but that's something that can occur if a guy is serious about what not just relationship but serious about really meet in a woman. He probably is more likely to want to see you in person and I personally feel fine with that. I mean, I like a phone call myself before the first meeting because I feel a little bit more secure being a woman. You don't always want to meet a man. You don't know straight away, but I have nothing wrong with, you know a meeting in person. No, it's fine. As long as as Rob says it's not you don't come across as being creepy and it made men can do strange things. You really need to think about it. You know, I had a young gentleman who well, this is just a story. This is just have so you can have a laugh at my expense. And I was the one escorting him into the interview room. So he looks at me and he says to me at that time. I was not married. He says to me so my dear are you going to make a cup of coffee for me kind of thing? And I looked at him and I said that signal for him to go through the door and then I sat at the head of the table and I said to him well we are about Start this interview because he was going to be an officer in my department. You see he didn't know all of this. He had not done his homework. And so you just sat there and he looked because as far as he is concerned he was going to back this chick. So I sent him this interview. I see on your resume exactly. This is your name. So and so and so so so so he just kind of just did w to the chair. That is he's good. I said, well, I'm not going to Get this job. I let's see, of course not regardless of the situation and more power to them. But at the same time. Make the effort to do your homework and and do your background checks and make the efforts to find out what the person likes what they are comfortable with and so you don't make any mistakes. That is Gavin. That's all I'm saying to you with respect to the coffee thing. Just don't be creepy. Don't say anything odd, and you will find the dark. APA girls who will go for coffee with you? We're not that bad women are coming. This complicated Maybe. Did your thing is not too I think yeah, what'd you say? I think the thing is it seems complicated but be curious we look to understand just be nice just be natural and that gets you so much further and there is a certain amount of numbers because it's just the fact of people won't see you necessarily. as the Person is going to make them happy and it's got nothing to do with you might just you might just remind them of an ex. Some of me wearing might trigger something and make them feel they'll make a snap judgment doesn't matter. Just let that guy like you can't just like back to the thing about those just you can be yourself what you need to put in some effort. It seems yeah, like you can't just be like kind of lazy. Like I'm just myself. I'm not going to put an effort because if the comes off on it Like so you need to present yourself a certain way and when you go for a job interview, you do some homework that yeah this rock up and dislike black it and that because if you do that, generally you are going to get the job you might occasionally get a job. Its release on the sort of job. You're going to want to get if you get it. Yeah the same thing and it's still, you know, it's still you being yourself if you can. Effort and you do some own work and he brought on a nice suit and tie and stuff, you know better a sore, but it's it's just the best version of you you can be in order to try and get that job and it's kind of the same thing. I suppose and a lot of work and it's I mean if it seems like being yourself is kind of making no effort. Nobody's going to want like to be on a Friday night where you're in a tracksuit, you know slamming out and in on the side We're not making any effort that they warm someone who's got some life in them. Someone who's interested in them. Someone that they can see something going on with ya. You can't make an effort at the beginning then it's only downhill from there. That's that's what we think. It's going to be downhill from there. So therefore you are starting at the ground zero and you're only going Into the tunnel. I mean you're going on the ground after that because you get comfortable. Yeah, it's downhill. So you get comfortable which means that you're peeling off all the layers and just been probably comatose even so that the female is going to do the planning for anything that's happening going to keep you alive. They basically you know, which is that's not what we want. We don't But what building projects and see if you can find you can find a woman I think that when what you do won't feel like an effort because if you find someone who's actually a good match for you, you won't feel as if you're putting in there, but I think that's what you mean. I mean, I mean a friend in the mind of a woman basically said when I when I broke up with my ex, she said you probably don't want to be with someone where you have to put in that much effort. Yeah, and that's the thing you don't That isn't going to work because it because it's not sustainable to keep putting in that high level of effort and who's a good match. No, don't laugh at your jokes that are because they'll actually find you funny. You know, that's so there's no effort by in the beginning. You just need it. Like, you know what the effort is to find that out. Yeah, you need to put the effort in the beginning what it said give yourself the choice as Rob says, you know you need to Ship should not seem like it's hard work. That's that's the point there is work and you have to maintain it. But if it seems like it is onerous task, then that is not a healthy situation to be in early. Yeah, I think you could make a good start going with with body language. If you study courtship signals for females and that that sits as P at the nail on the head really it's about finding someone. That likes you and if you're if you're in a bar or a restaurant, it could be a sandwich shop. If you can read the courtship signals of the female. You already know. She likes you before you even ask. He's a very young age that when you go and ask you to put your fancy come in for a coffee the courtship signals that you've read like if you look at her and she starts to as went to her and things like that. She said, you know, she likes you before you even approach you so there's a good chance that she's gonna say. Yeah, or at least I'll think about it. So Static motion signals and it will boost your confidence because it sounds like you quite well, I'm confident you'll really please get together reaction back because I never heard about the courtship signals. Oh, yeah, it's massive. Yeah, that's what I like to talk about this and learn about it. Yeah said both maybe it's good to learn about these things so I can improve my dating confidence. If you have you look at a girl in a bar or a pull over wherever the first thing she'll do. Is this she turn away from yeah, and then they shall look at you again across the bar and then she'll turn away again and she'll do it about three times, but it's a game it's a game and you know, that's just that with her. She doesn't then, you know, she doesn't she's not really into it. It's not even worth approach, you know, but if she does start to do those courtship signals for him In the preening when you're engaging eye contact you use a good chance. He's gonna you know, I accept your invitation for a coffee and it will really boost your confidence. That's what it's about getting your confidence up to. Go ahead. That's what it's about Alysia help help help help help help. I'm not quite sure that I was not aware about those signals to be honest. Yeah. Around and looking off if I see somebody that I like I'm going to look at him. However, I'm not going to be looking off. I'm looking if you think about twisting her and touching if a girl starts touching, it's basically the same in her mind subconsciously as being in front of the mirror Coleman like this and The reason they want to comb it's because they want to look pretty for the guy. It does vary though. I would say yes, and I think the best thing to do is just this what what you know make eye contacts always good it's more to do with the eye contact than to itís my hair a lot and it's because it just comes all over my face most times. It's not because I'm interesting in a guy and I don't think this is very attractive to be doing like Anyway, supposedly there's something there's something which it which if a girl Flex a hair or something, it means that she's exposing their neck which is a bundle bark. Oh, yeah, that's not necessarily good thing so it can go either way. You could write a recipe for a woman, you know. Yeah, I'm starting to think that I'd probably send a lot of wrong signals without knowing them because You could have the perfect guy walk past it if you play your cards, right you could have had the perfect. I know there are a lot of women who do it and I think I mean if you look at couples like not in a creepy way Vasily. Yeah, but you know, there are certain sick. There are sort of unsaid signals between naps, you know, and obviously when you're meeting a girl for the first time that that's a very basic thing, but there are things you can tell there are lots of sleep.  This can turn you silly. The word is study study is basically Do I touch my hair? We're all thinking the same thing. I was thinking is twiddling Twizzler. You stir you notice, you know, she's used to do this when I was in primary. I'm trying. Can I ask them what do people generally feel about the man initiating the woman initiating? It's usually the Mandan initiates the stuff is but what do you want? What do you have a preference or what do you think and this is for the men and women as well? I quite like a woman who initiates to be fair. That's because I'm really shy basically and I'm with you in terms of when I'm in the day and that now I only go for 80 try and talk to women he we've already like me is like this and the other way, there's just too much pain basically because I would let I'm doing the Hollywood reading their profiles and stuff and I'm still getting jack shit. So I don't know if they're robots or their brother, you know scammers are what's like, I'm you had a message enough. I'm not the best-looking fellow and so women always message the good-looking fellas because they have no Gavin. That's not that just not necessary. No, that's not true. That's not true. If I see a photograph of a to handsome man, I think huh Hacked photograph Google Images. Let's know this I am a detective. Okay this to be true. What is this model? Some Google image that has been stolen 50% of the time correct? So therefore with that track record, I am very skeptical eye as my son said to me Mommy. I do not want a beautiful girl and he has he's made sure that he doesn't get the Little girls. No. No he's and I do not want it too handsome man. I agree. I've been there. I've been there and done that and I'll work it out. I agree Andra. I do not want to have man another. Why are so many guys are like, oh, yeah, whatever you want the 6 foot 4, but you don't want a man because all the women want them and they know it and it's just an absolute hair day. You just want a man who's going to be himself who wants to be there? I was happy to spend time with you. That's cool. Genuinely. ER my brother was six foot tall. So I have of course I wanted and my mother was unfortunate if 5 foot. So, you know, what happened to me? Oh, okay. So therefore I wanted first engagement. Engaged twice. Okay, first engagement five-foot-six. All right. I don't think that matters. I don't think that height matters at all. You'll be surprised you guys dated. He had nothing to do with her looks it was to do with that talk with our conversation some of them when I looked at it and it was something that was there that meant something about their personnel says something about their personality that kind of engage me to talk to them because most times I thought like if I cross paths with this guy on the street, I probably wouldn't look back twice so I don't think that Important. No, but that's the point you you grow up with this image in your head of what yeah preferences and your life in real life. It turns out because I mean my ex-fiance of was he could dance like crazy? Okay, so it was the best he was the best party guy and everybody wanted to dance with him. So I had him and that's okay. But nah, nah he wants you to live in America. Erica so I said no. No. No, I'm going back to Jamaica. No, no, but the point okay, so the image of the tall handsome fellow but whatever. It's in your head. It's in the movies but compatibility with somebody else with another person and their personality that's on a dating site platform. Good luck. I don't agree with that is true. That is true. True replies. They'll get the replies but they won't the women. I don't know because I don't women are all the same but women are all different at the same time. Like there's certain women who will just go for looks and that's just the way it is like some girls just want an action man, but that depends if you want the type of woman who only want you for your looks because personally, Even though looks I feel like attraction is different from looks and you know, you have to be willing to get rejected as we all do but do you want to be with a woman who only wants to go by for superficial reasons Gavin like yeah, but Gavin that comes back to what else you bring to the table apart from looks it's your total presentation. And if you're saying alright, I'm not the best-looking guy, but I have got these other attributes like your writing. Skills your presentation women like men who take care of, you know, in terms of their parents here Faith clean, whatever it if you take care of your appearance and you present yourself. Well just as Pete said going to a job interview you scrub up. Well, we will like you we will like you you can be handsome and be a slob and we won't like you. You every potion that vote Gavin. Everybody says the same. I'm sure Pete and Rubble agree. We all think we're not the best looking but because you're right, there are there are decades on these websites with the tops off and the muscles showing dickheads and they get is not attractive. Anyway, that is not attractive though. Well, maybe if how do you know that they cannot how do you know that? They're getting all the likes and messages because I suppose all of them because I've seen it before like you you're putting yourself down. You must put yourself down don't compare yourself with others. Just make sure that you present the best of you that you can because that's what we are judging you on. He doesn't believe me. Then the same time like I guess that's just life the like if you are going to play the comparison game, then you're always going to find somebody who you perceive to be better than you whether it's Sports intelligence anything. Like there's nothing you can do about how somebody else did you can only control yourself. So I yeah fair enough they may be getting more likes from you but it only takes one person to connect with to make a relationship. You just need one good egg, and that's it. So what it's like I don't like it using my job interview analogy, but it's the same thing isn't it? If you when you go into that job in if you you have to be the best you can be like you can't be thinking about who the other people I know so and so is going for it and he's got a degree or he's got this experience or if you can't be thinking like that, but you just got to give the best account yourself and that's that's all you can do. We have to be like passionate about it like Well, you have to shit. Yeah, you have to put effort and yeah, you have to get a lot as well as well as what we've said many times you have to have to try and create connection and you create connection, you know by I don't know telling jokes or interesting stories or you know, however, you can create like by listening to what the woman saying and and I mean actually actively this not despite our yeah. Yeah, then talking about yourself. Thank you. Actually listen to what they're saying and then you respond and that's you. No, that's well. Yeah, maybe it's because I was hurting a previous relationship. I was in a relationship for and I put in effort and even if the girl texts me I'd say oh what what I'm going to say in response to this message. Was it still didn't work out again even after I put in all the effort, so maybe that's why I don't agree with it anymore. So you're giving up too soon that oh, there are millions of women out there and there are what people say, I'll find the one but there's not just one. There are thousands out there that are compatible with you thousands of them. So don't stop down you sound like a really nice bloke that's very long confidence. So you just got to pick yourself up so itself out that you'll for you. Let them come to you mate. It will there's not just one. On this thousands out there for you those ins the the thing about the effort Gavin is what's the alternative because like, you know, like if you're putting in effort for replying to texts, what's the alternative? What are you going to do with that time? Yeah, so it's okay to take some time out to think what you're going to say back. Yeah, this is the real shit. What will you be? I want you to text back kind of faster maybe but there's there's no guarantee that it's going to work with any one person. But if this is how you are then and this is what the way that you you like. What you do then over time that outputs going to have an it's going to lead to the result is if you if you do the behaviors. That lead to a lasting relationship then it's just a matter of coinciding with the right person. And it's not necessarily the like John said not there see the right one. But whoever is along the same kind of threshold. Like if you think of all the is all the people, there's the people that you would get along with that you would like they would look like you it's just interacting with enough people for that to happen. The other thing Mehndi is men all day, whatever their age they all go for the 22 year old. Those super model so it's about picking the right kind of person as well. You got to pick someone who's relatively your age range who's there are kind of like people that we are in the same ballpark with  monk is definitely best to send 10 quality texts awake than a hundred eyes. I think we'll definitely get a more meaningful return if you prioritize quality over quantity. Her to show her that he's attracted. All right, and he's sort of acting Talent. So maybe it's in a natural thing. Like, you know, it is if you look at the Cockerel and everything in most things it is the male animal that goes to all the effort. Yeah, like the mating dance or whatever. It may be. So it's kind of like to do with the genetics may be like and yes, this would be the peacock. That's what we're talking about dress up a little bit fix-up. Yes comb the hair cut the hair trim the bear. All this talk about hey, but you've got a sexy boy. So don't worry about it. You're fine have made the man who does the display to show that he's got what it takes to okay, we have we have moved away from the the man with the club. Bob, you know heat in the woman over the head and dragging her body him. There was so much easier than guys. No got to do a little bit more because remember it's the fitness. It's the fittest, you know that we want to have our babies with and part of assessing your Fitness. Is there a presentation and it's all of those attributes. We have to decorate the club. He's got to decorate exactly so you've got to scrub up just Above well, clean fingernails good haircut. Clean face good. Teeth Mmm Yeah, that shows self-love as well. If you take care of yourself. That's probably exactly how long ago did you split calving from your partner has long time ago even a friend of mine at work said to me when I split from my wife. I went when she left he said to me what you need to do is take time out and Learn who you are and I thought what's he talking box? This guy talking shape, but he was right I went away and I work. He said what do you want from a female? Never mind her. What do you want? I thought about it for about a month and then I dug myself out of the hole and I thought well, I'll go like this and like that and the but above all she has to be like I don't give a shit what she looks like. I don't care. She got to be loyal. That's the first thing because my ex-wife wasn't while and and you know, They'll be there for you, you know weren't who you are. What do you want? Never mind trying to find Pam around us and in a bar because it's probably not going to happen is it let's be honest, but you will find someone who's suitable for you. Look at what do you want out of it? Think about it? It's probably for most men is you probably have the Walk awhile day a bit. It's mastering the Dane skills because most men don't really learn how to attract women and so they don't have enough opportunities. And so they don't really know what they want. And you know, like you said men and most visual it is men are attracted to attractive women and that's It's about you have to know that you can have that if you want but it's about knowing that when you have that like when you can the women enough women, then it becomes about the qualities and who you want to be with. So I think like if I was going to say for you, like the hero's journey is about learning dating skills, and then let the relationship. Skip come because first of all, you've got a have the dating skills, then you know a little bit more about who you want to attract and then you know the little bit more about how do you want to build a relationship with so yeah, each stage there's problems. And so this is the hero's journey is to learn the dating skills. Next stage is to learn who you want to be with live stage is how you build a relationship. So it's just Like when you look at messaging look at it not as effort, but as learning a skill and it's a skill that will pay off the rest of your life because even when you're in a relationship, you still need to be able to message to like change the Dynamics change the mood because they seem doesn't stop just because you're in a relationship. Yeah, I heard that before. What do you mean by that? Like, even you still even in a relationship? You have something pretty much isn't? Yeah, because otherwise it's going to if you like I'll were in a relationship now. I don't have to bother it's like it just becomes domestic drudgery puns like oh made all this effort. The beginning now is not interested in me and I think particularly more for women. It's I think men in general quite happy to sell looks like this. Is it women and can correct me if I'm wrong, but I think women need to feel more from a man. They need to feel more interest more passion more. like excitement when want to be seen and heard Yes, even hurt and appreciate you too. I have a friend and he says his girlfriend even his previous girlfriend. I was telling them he needs to lose weight he needs to do this and that to be my healthy so women are like that they want you. To do certain things like well, it can be genuine genuine concern for your health. Yeah, because obviously, you know, extra weight is is gives you more risk factors particularly when you start getting 30s 40s is heart attack risk and a woman doesn't want to suddenly like be left alone can be genuine care. Yeah, well, I don't know. Well, he's like I had to be like so I don't know. I think it depends on how its said these you see it's easy to just say that they wanted to as well be saying but it depends on how its said because if it's genuine concern then surely that is a very good thing because you know that is to help that person but if it is said as you know Need to change all of these major things about you because it doesn't fit my image of my partner my ideal partner then you know their issues. Yeah, I'm not coming back can be either way call me as well. Not a lot of girls have been in relationships for the man is possibly going to be in a relationship. I really enjoyed this conversation and it just reminded me of something. Well the first thing I well just locate my head is I went to another woman's didn't talk and she said sometimes the women can be emasculated the man and like, you know how like, you know could say put them on down because the man wants to help women like, you know, You see the mind like for a damsel in distress like oh, yeah, let me change your tire for you and let me help you fix your car and stuff like that. But the women might say, oh no leave me alone. I'll do it myself and stuff like that is kind of like the master dating the man she say, what do you think about that? I wouldn't get more ones where they don't want the man to give them anything and there are quite a lot in the middle that I think sometimes they what they are one and sometimes they're the other and maybe they don't know themselves. So I think this just pay attention. I think it's just the thing to say. But if you ask once and you're told no don't push what's the difference where some men think that okay, you're only saying no, you don't really mean it. Therefore. I need to push whatever it is that the thing is and that can be irritating because as you're saying, okay, some people play the Damsel in Distress. Yes. And that's their Ploy but some women genuinely just want you to either just be there. Just listen be understanding just beep if I'm going on a rant because I am mad at something and I just want you to listen. I don't want you to solve it and likewise the tire if I by the way if you offer to fix my tire, I will gladly accept because I don't like fixing tires. Okay fine. So but there are other things that I don't want you to mess with I tell you no then no, thank you. Listen. I just want you to listen, so it depends but you need to be aware of the woman's response. I think you need to be in tune a person. Yeah, I don't think there's any there's no hard and fast. Yeah, there's it's not as simple as that. I think she was saying like that sometimes women nowadays because they have like they have like professional jobs. Some of them are in more like masculine energy because they have to be in a more masculine world. And sometimes men are more in the feminine energy. I don't know like it's kind of a complex topic. Yeah, I mean I say, I think what what there's a general move and as it moved from male masculine women are feminine to there are some men who are more feminine. There are some women at home on West masculine. And so I guess what she was saying was women should be more feminine. Yeah, allow me but it's not Equal I don't think men and women are actually different stood like you could say they're equal to plus and the feminist some of them say like we're all the same like men and women are saying we think the same way because accent when it's not really true like this women and men their brains work differently. We are not the same but we are talking about equal rights when equality hits its equal rights not wear different women and men will always be different. It's not whether you can if the same weight in thing or do exactly the same thing, it's they're having the ability to have access to this very same things the same way as say the rights the ability to marry the ability to own property the ability to think whatever those kinds of rights to choose and not to choose its your choices the choices that you can And me and you're quite right we're different we see things differently, but it's also not being denigrated for your your opinions. That's also that's also part of that equality that we strive for and so it's not just the physical. It's a relationship. How do you you respect? T' each other and you show the same this show the levels of respect. If one person doesn't respect the other then you're going to have a problem and in many respects for a woman. It's her opinion. If if it's not heard if it's not respected, you may not agree with it, but it's how you respond to it and those things I think are deal-breakers for many many women. Makes sense. This is a lot of people talk about melon feminine energies don't like him and we should go this should be roles and things like that, but you can't turn Society back and so we were in a time of change is the time this difficult for a lot of men because it's confusing and things have changed. It's it's more Like there's no set roles and it's we then have to deal with the new reality of what it is, but it's it's not a simplistic as like mastering masculine and feminine. You have to play roles. You have to be yourself. You have to be yourself the better and it's not like playing these games. Um, so some more. Yeah, we crisscross and again, we're not even having the conversation about other genders who are in between and so if we accept that we have different likes and we express them in different ways. Ways but at the same time women and I know well I've met men and I have some good friends who are men and they do the most traditional feminine tasks. They're very comfortable doing them and they are the most masculine of people. They're very masculine. There's no doubt about their masculinity. That's the point, but they won a couple Your friends of mine. It's the man who does the nurturing who's that who's the nurture and of the children in the relationship in the family? He is very good with his girls. He has three girls. He's very very good with them. He is the nurturer people looking on would say he's she's not maternal at all. He's you know, She he's in Archer. I did my mother she's not but it works fine. Not and that's a good description of balance. I think isn't it? Exactly so even if you don't fit like, you know, the traditional roles and as long as that together, then it works. Yeah, that is true. I do believe that it's up to the two people to decide what the rules will or I don't even say roles because I think you know sort of energetic play that you have a relationship personally. I prefer to be in the feminine. I don't obviously don't believe that feminine is submissive. I believe feminist. He has his own strength, but like if I'm in a situation where I have to be for example, you know more assertive or I have to be a bit more maybe Look, whatever energy is. I don't know. It's just not who I am really so I prefer it would I would prefer to be with a guy who is more masculine just because I'm not really that masculine as a woman. Yeah makes sense. I think it's one of the things that you that unfolds through the relationship and you find a Natural Balance and it either is or isn't Yeah, and this one more question. I'm wondering. Like what? How do you want me to say? Like, how do you know if someone is compatible like some people say opposites attract? I should you find someone that is like very similar to you. Maybe someone it doesn't have to be someone similar to you could be someone that's much different than you like it doesn't really matter is What you guys think about that? Like should it really a partner be very like you could it be someone that's quite different than you. There's no right recipe. I don't think it's your compatible. If you're both willing to make it work. I think yeah, and the way you communicate is very important above all I think to avoid further. issues this there's all kinds of like eHarmony is based on the idea that they can match you up chemistry or commas is based on that. There is no science. There is no real there are some information. It's basically people I think the fact that I read in Psychology is that people are the biggest factories people have similar intelligence levels, but it's it's I think there's big enough science that I think you just have to experience people that I think you have to just go on lots of dates and see where they go. And first of all it's developing the baking skills. Then when you as you develop them, you'll develop more confidence and have more relationships and then know where the balances and be more confident and bringing more of yourself out. And that's really the key. That sense. It's just a process. It's just just know when you when you finally go on a date where you like the person and she likes you then that would be if it's there's something you don't really last time. I went on a date I didn't really like the person to be honest. I didn't really I wasn't really interested in even getting to know the person for a second date. Like I just Wasn't interested in back so that can happen. Sometimes that's what you need to show your interest up front. So you about that earlier basically. Yeah, if you do your good messaging then you get on well and then you go and like meet for a coffee or whatever, you know after after a bit of minutes and you'll or maybe a phone call First you already know whether you know, whether you're probably going to get on with them. Trace that the beginning so might not go anywhere, but it's funny because I actually had a friend of mine actually had a female friend who's on a dating site. She had a guy who was messenger now quite recently actually about five weeks and he was really quite you know, he's very nice like regular out. But how are you, you know, very nice and they basically she finally decided to meet up for a coffee with her and he basically completely switched as that they he was like so he he was like saying somewhere like, you know you need to The Gotti like bought the first coffee or whatever. He was like, right you've got to go and buy the coffee now like telling them how to live their life and stuff basically completely switched on it went from being really nice and caring and then as soon as they were in a room together and it as long as you're not like that you'll be fine. Yeah, that'd be fun begins. I think this be honest I think is the thing. Yeah and just accept that if you're honest that certain people aren't going to like Like you but when you do meet someone that you like it's got a better chance again somewhere. Yeah honesty is the absolute. You know, I wouldn't want anyone who lied to me. They lied to me in messaging or you know, that's a complete see you later. Basic is no coming back from that. Everybody gets not backs everybody. We've all we've all been that yet not but not but not but that's that's the beauty of building. It's confidence building. That's what it is see the positive side and getting no matter how many times you gotta get knocked back. It'll boost your confidence in badly and you know within six months of getting knockbacks you'll be used to it and then you'll find one of those several thousand people out there that are compatible. You will find them you'll find one. Yeah, it's just it's just realize it's a long journey and just don't take it too. Seriously. I would set like a time set a time that you're going to devote debating and just do that and then come off because because all of those apps have gamification to try and keep you and you can end up spending hours like live your life live. Do the things that interest you and that's makes you more attractive and then send like send some messages and just look on it is it's not a quick fix. It's not something that's just going to happen it. If you do the practices over time, they'll eventually lead you it's just a matter of coat like John sees coinciding with the right person. So in terms of compatibility, I've got I've put a link in and there the ingredients are really what makes a relationship work and last but yeah, just just just keep honest. It's not something that you do like in a week or two or a month. It's you have to look at the relationship skills. You're developing. These are the behaviors you going to do the haven't you going to do? Um and you get there, you will okay, we've got even later. I think this is a record-breaking it's gonna it's gonna be like 1:00 a.m. Yeah. No, I definitely did his bed. But thank you and so next week we've got y for dating so if you get a chance to Read in the meantime. We're going to discuss that. You can't just read much. You're muted. Sorry. Mr. Rob. I happen to know that the dating Book price 10 pounds 22. You see you're missing your calling. You should be writing these books. You could be making a means. You've got to almost written, but I just don't go around here if we're moving. So yeah. Is it worth me buying this for 10 pounds 22 will I really know how to date after I'm finished with this book. I don't I haven't read that one ought to be honest. I've listened to stands hack his books, but I found it quite boring. I didn't really his analogies didn't really work for me. He's good. He's very good at what he does. There's a tedtalk got so I kind of like this attachment fear. I know it's nervous systems. I'm going to spend this week because I bought that one specially because I didn't have that. I'd had wide for relationships and one of these other ones but will will cover a review of it. I'm sure if you'll just look for the wide for dating summary. It's about somewhere on will probably make one after we've done it if I'm going to read the book. I'm probably going to write a summary of it so you can get the gist of it. But I found it hard, you know, like there's some people that you do not mourn actually like the book of and some you don't so much. I think he's good. It's very good at what he does. I found it hard to take in. I found it quite interesting though. And I think it can be applied not only to dating it can be applied to relationships in general. Yeah. No, he's got wide for dating and he's got I've got I didn't have that but I've got wide for a relationship and But I had a majority of it. So I kind of listened to him while I was walking. And so and I don't know I take him much better from reading them from whatever works. You know, I've got wide for love your brain on love and relationship RX. But anyway, we'll do the wife of dating. I think if you've got one you've probably got eight percent of the rest. So if you're interested, you can read maybe if not, we'll give you a summary and will cover the main Concepts. Okay. Thanks. Right. We'll see you next week. Have a good week. Everyone.