David K Richards is the Founder & CEO of Changemaker Education, a national network of affiliate love-based microschools and an incubator for founders who want to usher in a new paradigm for the future of education. He is also the host of the Changemaker ED“U” podcast.

Previously, he was Founder & CEO of Growth Public Schools, and a founding teacher and leader with Summit Public Schools where he launched several innovative schools. In addition he serves as a leadership and life coach. David has worked in education reform for over 25 years as a teacher, principal, executive, and board member.

He lives in Sacramento, CA with his wife and his two children, and holds a BA from UC Berkeley and an MA from Stanford University.

Takeaways:

• The traditional education system has remained largely unchanged, resembling a factory model that fails to meet the needs of modern learners.
• Microschools represent a transformative approach to education, empowering educators and communities to create personalized learning environments.
• The emergence of microschools arises from a growing desire for more intimate, love-based educational experiences that focus on social emotional learning.
• ChangeMaker Education aims to cultivate a network of microschools, emphasizing the importance of relationships and community involvement in fostering student success.
• In the face of societal shifts, such as the rise of the gig economy and the expansion of homeschooling, families are increasingly seeking alternative education options.
• There exists a significant demand for educational reform that prioritizes personalized learning and emotional development, particularly in light of ongoing advancements in technology and AI.

Chapters:

• 00:16 - Revolutionizing Education: The MicroSchool Movement
• 01:04 - Introduction to Microschools and Educational Innovation
• 13:50 - Transitioning from Educator to Entrepreneur
• 16:30 - The Rise of Personalized Education
• 22:59 - The Future of Education: Embracing Change and Choice
• 31:18 - The Ripple Effect in Education

https://www.changemakereducation.com/

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And education, for whatever reason, is one of the few industries that still looks the same, right? It's you still have one teacher at the front and anywhere from 25 to 40 kids in a classroom in rows.

And that's just not going to work anymore for the world that these kids are entering. So I've been saying that for years. And then when I found micro schools, I'm like, oh, this is a way to change the operating system.

And then you can kind of avoid some of the zoning regulations and the red tape and the bureaucracy and you can just go and start with like 10 kids and, you know, and then add another 10 and maybe get to like 50 kids in five years and you got yourself a micro school. And now you're not stuck in kind of a command and control factory model system where you're just kind of a cog in the wheel.

Hello, my name is Mark Taylor and welcome to the Education on Far podcast. The place for creative and inspiring learning from around the world.

Listen to teachers, parents and mentors show how they are supporting children to live their best authentic life and are proving to be a guiding light to us all. Hello and welcome back to Education on Fire.

Today I'm delighted to be chatting to David K. Richards and he's the founder and CEO of ChangeMaker Education, a national network of affiliate love based micro schools and an incubator for founders who want to usher in a new paradigm for the future of education. Now, David has worked in education reform for over 25 years as a teacher, principal, executive and a board member.

Together with his work as founder and CEO of Growth Public Schools and and a founding teacher and leader with Summit Public Schools. It's always great to chat to a fellow podcaster and David's show is called the Changemaker Edu podcast.

Hi David, thank you so much for joining us here on the Education on Far podcast. Great to chat for to someone on the west coast.

It's been a little while since I've chatted from someone quite that far away and I just wanted to start off with the idea of a Love Bay school because I think that's a fantastic place to start and an understanding of sort of setting the scene of what it is that you're all about.

Absolutely. I'd love to talk about that. So in my career in education, what I have found is that culture and relationships are really everything. Right.

When you can combine culture and relationships with excellence, then you have a magic formula, in my opinion. So our micro schools are considered loved based because our foundation is around, every single child will be loved.

And we have a social emotional learning curriculum that actually supports that.

So, so that's like the number one thing that when we're looking for founders to come in and open micro schools across the country, across the US we are looking for that belief. Like, do you really believe that love is the foundation and the pillar of everything that should be happening in schools?

And if you have that, then we can work with you.

And I think that's what everyone, which is every school is like, isn't it? It's like that kind of child first, human first, whether it's peer to peer.

Yes.

I mean, why would it not? It's like, it's like the ultimate family experience, isn't it? So for anyone.

Exactly, yeah.

For anyone who's not familiar with what a micro school is, give us an idea of what that looks like. Maybe the sorts of size of the physical school or the number of pupils and those sort of details.

Yeah, there's a national microschool center and they define it as five to 150 students. So it's really defined by the size.

So you think about like a five student microschools, maybe like homeschool mom added a few kids down the street, five kids in her living room, that's considered a microschool. And then the other end of the spectrum is 150 kids. And maybe it's like a K through 12, so all ages. And typically that's what defines a microschool.

It's not the funding or the governance because some people are like, oh, they're all private or whatever. Nope.

There's now public district schools doing micro schools, there's public charter schools doing micro schools and a lot of private micro schools that are funded by the vouchers or the education savings account. So it's a little mixed in terms of the funding and the governance. But as long as it's small, small and micro. Right. It's a micro school.

And really it's a redux of the one room schoolhouse.

So you typically see multi age classes, you see personalized learning and like we talked about that kind of family feel because parents are typically much more involved because it's smaller and they're volunteering, they're in, you know, they're doing stuff and so it's, it's kind of just like something very new that's trending, but also really a redux of something very old.

Yeah, I love that.

So in terms of change maker education itself, take us on that journey, because I know you've got that sort of previous history through education in that more sort of traditional route. So how did that sort of then take you into what you're doing now?

Yeah, so basically I started at, believe it or not, as a banker. And I always say I went from a banker to educator to entrepreneur. So I started working as a bank in my 20s.

I was working two blocks from the White House. I had the three piece suit. I was, you know, Mr. Successful on the outside, but really felt like I was not very happy.

And I was like, is this really gonna be my whole life?

You know, and the most joy I had was working with Ethiopian immigrants, teaching them to speak English, and then coaching basketball in the, you know, in the urban neighborhood. So it was like I loved working with these kids and teaching.

And so I decided I would quit my job and go become a teacher and work, start working in Oakland public schools in an urban community. And absolutely fell in love with that.

And so throughout my whole entire career, like I said, it's been about relationships, it's been about intimate, love based small schools. And so I opened my own charter school.

I worked opening several charter schools through a network that we took from one small portable at the back of a high school to 10 schools across the San Francisco Bay area. And then we ended up putting that model into 300 schools across the country. So that was a wild ride.

And as I was doing consulting and, you know, kind of looking at the landscape of education, the pandemic hit. And then I was kind of like, you know, there's a real movement here for something really different. And parents want to be more involved.

Educators want a different option than just being in the kind of factory model school district. And so we launched change maker Education about a year ago.

And in the first month I put out an application for, you know, founders educators that want to open their own micro schools. And in three months we got 2,500 applicants. And that was 15 months ago. And now we're up to about seven, six, about seven, 6,500 applicants.

People that are just like really excited to start their own micro school. So it's been a really wild ride. And it's like all of my interests kind of combined.

The entrepreneurial piece, the cause, we help them with the business side because a lot of teachers don't understand that side. And then obviously my launching all these schools too has helped kind of bring this all together.

And so for those people who are sort of outside the US listening, tell us about what a charter school is specifically, because that's not something that certainly here in the UK that we talk about too much.

So they do have them in the UK, I believe. I think maybe mainly in the city, but I know they have some in London.

But essentially what a charter school is, you have a charter with the district or the county office of education and you're able to do something different.

And then the public funding comes to your charter and it's overseen by some sort of public entity like the school district, the state board of education. And essentially you're creating a different type of school that's called a charter and it's supposed to be an incubator for innovation.

So they've had them in the US since about mid-90s. And here in California they're about 10% of the market share. So 10% of kids in California are going to charter schools.

And it's, you know, some states have maybe like 1 or 2% and some states don't have them at all. But most states in the US now do have some version of a charter school.

And so Microsofts are kind of this next reform effort that's, you know, really trying to think about how do we create these smaller schools that are different and giving families different options. And then. So it's very possible. I already get phone calls from all over the world. Right. So I haven't had any from the UK yet, which is interesting.

But I do get the.

Maybe after this.

Yeah, yeah, maybe we'll be getting more of them. But yeah, basically the idea is that the community can launch a small school, like I said, like a small homeschool learning center.

They could do sort of a more like a school brick and mortar school. They could do an online school, they could do a hybrid version.

And the idea is you're just creating that school that you always dreamed of in your head as a teacher. You're like, if I could start a school, it would be STEAM based or it would be performing arts.

And because it's smaller in size, it's just less complicated. And then you can kind of avoid some of the zoning regulations and the red tape and the bureaucracy.

And you can just go and start with like 10 kids and you know, and then add another 10 and maybe get to like 50 kids in five years and you got yourself a micro school and now you're not stuck in kind of a command and control factory model system where you're just a kind of a cog in the wheel. Yeah.

And I mean, that's why this podcast started.

It's because I was going into various schools and you'd see the members of staff at break time banging their heads against the brick wall saying, I got into this to make a difference and I'm. I'm for filling. I'm having to toe the line, I'm having to. All that sort of stuff.

Sounds like the epitome of kind of being able to take control in that, like say, create that vision in not an easy way, because none of these things are easy, but in a way that you can see all those steps to make it a reality.

Yeah. What I always say is that, you know, we need to really think about changing the operating system in education. So I've been saying that for years.

And then when I found micro schools, I'm like, oh, this is a way to change the operating system.

So let's talk a little bit then about that kind of structure in terms of how many staff.

I guess it's like every school is going to be slightly different, but kind of how some of these schools are structured and how the relationships maybe with the children and the people that are running it, it's going to be different than that. Sort of mainstream.

Yeah. I think, like I said, the infrastructure really does allow for a completely different experience.

The National Microschool center does annual reports and 60% of microschools do some version of personalized or self directed learning. And I always share that statistic because it's like most of them didn't start out saying, I want to be a self directed microschool.

It's like that just happened because it's self directed. Excuse me, it's small, it's multi age. And so it's kind of hard not to get to know every child. Well, if your class sizes are 10 to 15. Right.

It's kind of hard when the whole Entire school is 50 to not have those deeper relationships and to know the families. And so in terms of the staffing, you'll see creative staffing, but it's pretty simple. Like our model is 15 to 1.

Like we don't go over 15 students in a classroom.

And so we'll start with like 28 students, two teachers, a part, like a lead teacher, a partner teacher, and then like a part time aide or some sort of, you know, like assistant. And that's how we start. So you got two and a half people.

And then you'll see a lot of, you know, in our schools you'll see a lot of parents coming in and grandparents. We'll have retired teachers coming in. You. So you start to have this kind of community momentum.

And a lot of people that are kind of like, you know, I've been trying to volunteer in a school and they won't let me come in. Or you know, the teacher, like when I volunteered at my son's kindergarten class, she literally asked me if I would file her papers.

And I was kind of like, hi, a master's degree in education. But she never even asked me, like, hey, do you want to do small group reading?

Do you want to, you know, take the kids outside and do some sort of project? You know, it was not, she wasn't interested. It was all about like just having me do a low level task.

So you can actually leverage the community in totally different ways in a microschool because you're creating a community environment and.

In terms of, like you say, that sort of business acumen that, that people will need to know and I guess they, they sort of grow and learn those things as they get sort of more experience with it.

But is there kind of sort of a basic level of understanding that you need to start with or can you sort of through the framework and, and the support that you give, literally think, no, I, I can, I can make this happen in a, in a relatively short space of time.

Yeah, you can make it happen in a relatively short space of time. And our whole entire, like when we started this, our hypothesis was teachers want to teach and they want to, we want to unleash their genius, right?

And so give them a smaller group and create an environment where they can thrive. And then we're like, okay.

But they have never been trained on, you know, how to get insurance or what to do when, you know, something goes wrong with a building and that kind of stuff. So we train you on all of that and you know, take on the growth mindset. It's like, it's just learning, it's just content.

And because we're affiliate network of micro schools, so there are some incubators where it's a, you know, an organization that helps you build and launch your microschool and then they go away. But we're an Affiliate, So we stay with you, and you're part of our umbrella. So we don't actually ever go away. So we're really there to help you.

So we train you to get open. We give you all the, you know, we have tools and resources and guidebooks, and then we do intensive coaching.

So you learn, right, and you figure it out.

And if you really think about it, it's like that preschool down the street or the small restaurant or the barbershop, you know, where it's a small business. And there's a lot of complexities, but what we're doing is kind of like a franchise.

But it's what I like to call the modern twist of our franchise, because you have tons of autonomy and you are. Your actual. You are a separate legal entity as our affiliate. So it is on you. And that's one of the hardest things.

So one of our workshops is, you know, it's called From Educator to Entrepreneur, because that's the biggest growth area that we see is understanding how to think like an entrepreneur, taking on more risk, you know, being adaptable, like understanding how to deal with the money and the finances. All the things that, as teachers are like, this is. I don't want to deal with this ever.

And it's like, okay, if you don't want to deal with it ever, that's a problem. But if you're willing to learn it, then we can help you, no problem.

And I think that's.

I can see that being the real sort of sticking point, because one of the things about being a teacher, like, you say, you've got your salary, you've been there for a long time, it just becomes, oh, this is fine. I'm just focusing on that learning and the educational side.

Exactly.

It's a different mindset, isn't it?

A little bit. It's. It's a massive change in mindset. And I think that's the biggest thing. And I think it takes a little crazy. You have to be a little crazy.

You have to have that entrepreneurial fire.

So what we typically find is, you know, someone who's maybe started a tutoring business on the side, or they have, you know, a basketball or they're coaching some sort of sport, and they have their own little side business. So they've already kind of dabbled in entrepreneurship. And I think that helps because then they understand that, you know, there's not a.

It's not a straight line. It's going to be a, you know, a zigzag up, down, roller coaster. And so if you're a game for that type of.

What I always tell people is like it's going to be the most exciting, exhilarating and terrifying thing you've ever done. Right. So you have to be ready to kind of get out of this nine to five. You know, I get a paycheck, I do what I'm told from the boss.

Like if that's you, it's not going to be a good fit. But if you're kind of like itching to do your own thing, you've kind of had that, you know, I really think I could do this.

I really think I could actually be my own boss and take on this entrepreneurial journey. Then we can help you be really successful.

And I think that's often the thing that you hear, isn't it? Is the fact that I can learn all this stuff, I can do a course, I could be part of something.

And then that sense of being left on your own is a scary thing because yes, yes, it's like the membership model, you want to keep coming back to the resources, you want to keep having those regular things.

And so I can see how that affiliate idea just constantly, you being there as a, as a support network is going to make all the difference for people maybe who think it's a good idea but wouldn't quite make that leap. Whereas now they feel that it's actually possible.

That's exactly it. And you know, because we're keeping them in our network for forever, basically it's like you don't ever have to do it alone.

And I think, you know, you find people that try and go and do something on their own and then it's like, oh, I didn't understand the marketing or you know, they just, they get, they get scared, they get stuck and it becomes too overwhelming.

So we, we kind of help you make sure that, you know, we give you the formulas, we give you the mark, we create the marketing engine, you know, we create the, all the sort of systems that you need, we have going on in the back end so that you can be successful on the front end.

And from a sort of a student point of view and a parent point of view, you talked a little bit about this to begin with, but do you feel there's a real need now for these types of schools because there are more and more people just wanting to educate their in a different way in a more sort of love based way, in that kind of more personalized learning?

Yeah, I think you're seeing a couple things going on. Number one, there's like the whole rise of the gig economy. Right. So there's a lot more people that want to do side jobs they don't want.

I mean, the younger generations, like the millennials and what is it, Generation Z, my kids age, like, they're not interested in these nine to five, you know, 30 year jobs anymore. Right. They've already broken that paradigm. And so I think you're seeing that going on.

And then with the families you're seeing, you know, in the US the homeschool percentage of homeschoolers has like tripled in the last five years. And it was even. It had doubled before the pandemic, and then it increased. It's still small numbers.

It's like 8, you know, 10%, but it's gone way up from like 2%. It used to be the, you know, one side, the far extreme to one side or the other would homeschool. And then it wasn't considered very mainstream.

It's becoming much more mainstream now to look into a different type of school. School. So I would say what we're seeing is families are ready for a more personalized experience.

They're ready for their kids to be getting an experience that's going to actually see them, you know, love them, be seen and heard, and then personalize it so that they can find their purpose and actually find a career or something in their life that's not, you know. You know, you ask a kid when they're in 10th grade, when I was a high school teacher, what do you want to be? I want to be a doctor or a lawyer.

It's like, why do they say that? Because that's all they know. And as we know, majority of the population are not doctors and lawyers. Right.

There's a lot of them, but that's still a lot of people that aren't. So you have an environment where you can say like, hey, we want to get to know you.

We want to figure out what your superpowers are and help you navigate your career.

So I think families are starting to see that the way the world is going, you know, a college degree, university degree is not as prestigious as it used to be. And it's, it's. There's just so many things that are changing and with AI and technology, I mean, the next five years is going to be a wild ride.

So I think parents are starting to see, and the pandemic really highlighted it, that there needs to be an option for alternative schools. It's no longer the kind of people that are outside the mainstream is becoming.

Very popular and Are you finding, is there any kind of sort of pushback in terms of this?

Whether it's political or kind of social, obviously the people that think it's a great idea, obviously going to get involved, but any sort of sort of flip side of that?

Yeah, I think the pushback is what I call from the establishment. Right.

So it's typically the people that have been working in a traditional school for a really long time and they feel threatened by this change, which is the same thing we dealt with in the charter schools. You know, it's like, this is the one way to do education. Please don't change it and, you know, don't mess with my pension.

So it's understandable because that's their safety net. Right. So there's a lot of that kind of pushback, but that doesn't come from the families.

Families are kind of like, this seems like a great idea, I want to try it. And then the other pushback is, are these high quality schools? And I think that's a real good question to ask.

Anytime you have an innovative space that is maybe not as regulated, then you can see a lot of bad actors that are doing things that aren't great. And so there are bad micro schools out there, just like there's bad traditional schools out there.

And so we wanted to create this organization because we believe in high quality schools. And we can say, hey, these are micro schools that are doing really well and they're high quality.

And we want to make sure that there's a framework and there's, you know, they're using best practices.

And this is not just like a group of people that don't know much about education are throwing kids in a room and saying they're going to, you know, homeschool. And then five years later, the kids haven't learned anything. And their reading scores are, you know.

But if we really look at the state of traditional education, it's not great right now.

So I feel like if we could try something different, even if we didn't do great, we might be able to kind of do as well or better as what's going on in a lot of the traditional schools.

Yeah.

And I think that idea of the silver bullet to change the traditional schools is, you know, as each year goes by, you think, oh, by now surely someone's going to sort of have that momentum. But it never happens and it swings back round.

And I think like, say, being able to make a difference in the here and now by doing something like this is a really interesting thing for people to Consider.

And I think the other thing that it just reminded me of is the fact that you get a sense of what a school's like when you go to visit, when you talk to the children, and that certainly here in the UK, the primary school, sort of up to age 11, they're much more personal, you've got less children in there, so you get much more of a sense of that.

So if you're sort of talking about this idea of a micro school, even more, you're going to get a sense of that, because the proportion of people who are related to the school, you're going to know more of them.

Like you say, whether it's the member of staff, the children, you're going to get a real sense of how happier they are, the sorts of things that they're doing. And I think that sort of innate understanding is a really key guider as well.

Yeah. And then it really empowers families because families get to vote with their feet.

So if they are choosing this school, you know, we have states like in Arizona and Florida, where the parents get a debit card with $10,000 on it. And essentially the idea is you decided not to go to the public school. Public school will get anywhere from 10 to $15,000 for your student. Right.

From the public funding. So we're going to just give you a debit card.

And now you can go find a private tutor, you can do a homeschool, you could do a micro school, you could do a traditional private school, whatever you want to do with your $10,000.

So it's empowering parents to say, like, hey, if these aren't high quality, or if these aren't meeting my kid where they need, you know, they're uniquely positioned. So, you know, there's schools that we have that are going to serve primarily, you know, special education or neurodivergent kids.

And it's like, if the family's kind of like, well, you said you were going to do something great with my neurodivergent kid, and you're not, then they can leave. Right. And as opposed to just having one option.

And so I think it really empowers the families to say, like, we're going to choose, we know what's best for our kids and we're going to choose what we think is best, and if it doesn't work, we're going to find something else. So it's creating more choice in the ecosystem.

And I like what you said before about that sort of the idea of, don't mess with my Pension, you know, it's like, it's very traditional. We know how that works.

And I think talking about AI and talking about how people's perceptions of jobs from the younger generation are looking, the idea of having anything which is set and the idea of saying, no, I've made this decision. That's it for all my. The fraternity. For my kids. Education is just not the way anything in life's happening these days.

Getting used to what that feels like, that being secure in the. In the unknown, I think is a really sort of important life lesson these days.

Yeah, no, absolutely.

And I feel like, you know, even before AI was really on the scene, I was telling people, you know, with our kids, we don't know what the jobs are going to be. The jobs that we have right now, you know, I had a friend years ago, tell me when I was in college, like, hey, look at the newspaper.

You know, back in the day when you had want ads or whatever, look at the newspaper and see what jobs are hiring. And that's, you know, what you should do your major on. And like, you can't do that anymore.

You can't look five years in advance, because we know that five years from now, a lot of the jobs can be totally different. 10, 15 years.

You know, like, my son's 15, so when he's 30 and he's kind of just getting into his career, I have no idea what the jobs are going to be like with AI and all the things that are changing. And so we have to really think about what are the skills that we need and what are the dispositions and things that we need to learn.

And education, for whatever reason, is one of the few industries that still looks the same, right?

You still have one teacher at the front and anywhere from 25 to 40 kids in a classroom in rows, and that's just not going to work anymore for the world that these kids are entering.

Yeah, I couldn't agree more.

And I think the other thing that's going to definitely make a difference, like, say, we don't know what that looks like, but I think we do know that there's going to be a craving for more and more human contact, especially in the world of AI and technology. So.

And I think the sorts of skills that you're learning, the experiences you'll have in a smaller school setting where you get those personal relationships and that, that kind of camaraderie and community sense, that can only build those sorts of skills that you're going to need, like, say, for whatever the job doesn't doesn't look much further down the track.

No, it's totally true. And I feel like what I tell people is, you know, you asked me at the very beginning, what's a love based school?

And I tell people I've always done love based schools, but in the world we're entering with AI, which is really mimicking human. Human behavior, right?

It's literally just watching us and then building models around what we do and what we say, you know, and so if we're a bunch of mean, emotional, not emotionally intelligent, you know, cold, not caring people, like, that's the world our kids are going to be entering. So to have a school that says, like, hey, we want to leverage this AI situation or the changing world and technology or whatever it may be, right?

But at the same time, we have to stay core to our humanity, which is, you know, intuition, the soul, love, all the things that technology is never going to change. And so that's.

We believe very strongly that our schools are important because that's what we need to do as like a foundation for the future of our world, not only the future of education. Right.

And so I think that's a really big piece of why we, like, why I put love based in, like, you know, the very first sentence of my bio and why we have it all over, you know, the word love all over our website. Because we really feel like this is going to be kind of an important turning point in with the kind of advent of AI and other technologies.

And the other thing I really like is the fact that.

And the reason, the other reason I love doing the podcast is the fact that you can go to someone's website, you can talk, you can sort of read about what's going on, but what you don't get is the personality like we're having here. They hear your thought process, experience, all of that. And like I say, it's got a sense of who you are based on what you're offering as well.

And is that one of the reasons why doing the podcast is so important?

Because I guess people can start to hear what it's all about, dip their toe into the thought process, what they can learn, and sort of really sort of enter that ecosystem with a little bit more sort of a gradual kind of upslope, as it were, rather than kind of light bulb moment. Yes, I'm going to start school tomorrow and away you go.

Yeah, yeah, No, I think it's really about relationships. And somebody told me there's a word, I think it's called parasocial, where you get to know somebody through a podcast.

Like you feel like, like I'll talk to people and they'll be like, oh, I feel like I know you. I've listened to some of your episodes. Right. You might experience this too, Mark.

And, and I'm kind of like, oh, I guess, yeah, yeah, I guess you do know me because I've been talking to this, you know, in this machine that goes out and gives an audio for a long time and now all of a sudden we get to know each other or you get to know me.

And so I feel like we get so close with our founders because, you know, if we're going to talk about relationship based schools and love based schools, like that's how we operate our cohorts, right? It's very close. We're, you know, we get to know each other, we really talk about the long term vision.

You know, we, we feel like this is a mission and a vision. And so there's this big mission and this big vision. Vision and then there's the humanity and the connection that you get.

And a podcast allows you to really share that.

So, yeah, speaking of our mission and vision, so our vision is to have 100 change maker micro schools in the next decade and to have all different types of microschools, different funded ones, ones in urban areas, suburban areas, rural areas, just all over the United States and ultimately globally that we can really say, hey, this is possible, we can shift the paradigm of education. Micro schools are not the answer, but they're one answer for allowing people to see what's possible.

And then, you know, we're building an innovation lab, so a place where we can sort of test and share ideas and make sure that people can see like, hey, this could happen in your school district.

You know, you could start these set of small schools or maybe you could use some of the practices that are doing that we're doing really well with in your school to kind of shift this paradigm of education.

Yeah, I love that. And you sort of mentioned the sorts of numbers of people who sort of inquired about your school, like saying just sort of a short amount of time.

How does that sort of filtering work?

Is it kind of if they go through the program, you're happy that they'll be able to do the sort of school that you're happy to sort of be part of, or is there kind of sort of an idea of we're not quite sure this is going to be a right fit or how that sort of process works?

Yeah, it's a good question. So some of the other, you know, organizations that do this are more kind of, they have less of a vetting process than we do.

But because we are an affiliate model, meaning that you're going to represent our brand and you're going to be one of our umbrella schools, even though you have tons of autonomy and it's an affiliate, we want to ensure that our values are aligned. That's the most important thing to us. So do you believe in experiential learning?

Like kids doing things and getting out, you know, and if you look at our founders, now we have a nature based school. We have a gentleman in Indiana who's doing it on his farm. We have, you know, performing arts in Philadelphia.

So we have all these like really unique schools. And we're not going to dictate like, hey, you have to do it this way. But values wise, do you believe in experiential learning?

Do you believe in some version of personalized learning? And do you believe in social emotional learning or what we call, you know, comprehensive human development?

And if you believe in those things and you have that entrepreneurial mindset, not even like a mindset, but the ability to build the mindset and have the drive, then we will work with you. But, but there is a vetting process and it is selective.

And you know, we don't, we probably choose about 6 to 7% of the people that apply because we're really looking for people that fit kind of a certain, you know, certain set of criteria and values.

Yeah, I think that's really important for people to hear because like I say, it just builds on that reputation again, doesn't it, that yes, this could be brilliant and it could be all over the place, but it could only be brilliant all over the place with the right people talking the right way and being part of the rights, the right community in terms of what changemaker education actually is and what that then means to everyone who comes across it.

Yeah, I'm a big believer in, you know, you find great people. Like you put, you put a vision out there and you find great people and then great things happen.

So we're, we're making sure that we find the great people and not people that are kind of, you know, one foot in, one foot out, or not really sure or they were kind of a mediocre teacher for years and now they think this is going to be their saving grace.

It's like, no, we're looking for the people that really see the vision, that connect with it, connect with the values, and they see that this is a movement. And this is something that we believe will shift the paradigm of education. And there'll be, like I said, proof points across the world where we want.

If you want to be one of those proof points, you want to be one of those people that, you know, you're running a small micro school which doesn't feel, oh, it's only 50 kids or 100 kids or whatever, but you're part of something much larger. And that's the type of person we're looking for. It's very mission driven.

Yeah. And I think that's one of those things, isn't it? It's about, you can only do what's available in the moment.

It's about the next, the next word you say to a child or the next thing that you say to your, your fellow co worker, and then that makes a difference in the moment. And it's all those small things, literally micro things that you do day in, day out over all the people that you speak to.

And then the needle has to change because your community and the people that you're empowering around you is going to change. And that ripple effect is, I think, like I say, the thing that's going to make the biggest difference.

100 agree. I'm a big fan of the ripple effect and I feel like the relationships that you build.

So when I had my charter schools, you know, we would have like 50 kids per grade in the elementary and then like 100 kids in a high school and we would stay with the same kids. Like, I had 17 kids I stayed with for four years as my advisory group. And then I helped them, you know, apply to university and all that.

And it's because we built such strong relationships. And so you're going to see that with smaller schools. And it's, it's, it's definitely.

And then that ripple effect of, okay, so now we have this small group of 17 and a handful, like I think three or four of them. Actually a couple of them went back to my old charter school network and other teachers and a couple of them are doing other kind of youth work.

And so now that ripple effect's happening. Right. They're going back out in the community and they're helping kids. And so it's really, it's really exciting and fun.

Yeah.

And say once you see that sort of full circle of like, say the people that were the students then going out and making a difference, you kind of feel like, yeah, I love that. Love that.

Yes.

So obviously, the acronym FIRE is really important as part of Education on Fire. And by that we mean feedback, inspiration, resilience, and empowerment. What is it that strikes you when you hear that? Whether it's one word or.

Or collectively, I absolutely love it. When you first showed it to me, I was like, yes, this is everything we're all about, right?

Because we're helping people make a big jump from educator to entrepreneur. So they need to be able to get, like, constant feedback, right? And then inspiration, resilience, and empowerment. And we're all about empowerment.

Like having the autonomy to be your own founder and not having to wait for a boss to tell you what to do. You have to have tons of resilience to actually be an entrepreneur. And then this is all about inspiration. Like, how can you inspire?

How does your vision like? Every single person that we bring in, they basically say, I've always had a dream to launch a micro school.

So they are so inspired that it's contagious. And everyone around them feels inspired, too. So I absolutely love your acronym, and I think it's brilliant and genius.

Thank you. I'd like to take all the credit, but it was actually my daughter that came up with it. We were on the way back.

We were on the way back from a gym session, and we were just talking about how to kind of sort of pull all the sorts of ideas that we were talking about on the show together. And actually that I think it wasn't those four words at the very beginning, but we kind of sort of narrowed it down and it became that.

But, yeah, it became a, like, say, a family or that sort of community sense of it all coming together, which is. Which is brilliant. I love the fact it's sort of part and past of my life, as well as just sort of my sort of.

I love it. I love it.

Fantastic.

Well, tell people where they need to go in terms of finding out more information so that those people have suddenly you to sort of lit that fire literally under them about maybe doing something and getting involved. So where would you like them to go and find out more info?

Yeah, it's real simple. It's changemakereducation.com so all one word. Changemaker education.

That's where you can find my podcast, Changemaker Edu, which actually was when I launched that podcast. It's what actually created this whole entire idea, because I started talking to all these microscope people and I was like, wow, this is.

You know how it is. You get excited with the guests you talk to. So, yeah, so the podcast is on there.

We have blog articles, and you can look, and there's a guide you can download that tells you all about the program we offer. Everything's on the website.

Fantastic. Well, David, keep up the great work.

And like I said, I love the fact we get to hear the personalities and the passion and everything behind those websites and the dream of these people that really makes all the difference. And to be such an integral part of that is a real privilege. So, yeah, thanks so much indeed.

Thanks for having me.

Education is not the filling of a pail, but the lighting of a fire.