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Honest Talk About Heartbreak, Dating and Relationships - Rob McPhillips EPISODE 17, 12th August 2020
The Inside Secrets On Dating Apps… From A Dating App Creator
00:00:00 02:17:27

The Inside Secrets On Dating Apps… From A Dating App Creator

In this episode we had a chance to grill Sanjay from elatedate.com to find out how dating apps really work and how to make them work for you.


Welcome to honest talk about heartbreak, dating and relationships, relationships, the podcast helping you navigate your path to happy ever after with your host, Rob McPhillips. Sanjay is the creator of a dating app called Like If I just pass you over, Sanjay, you want to just give people a little bit of details about what what I can find out from you.

And yeah. So yeah. So I think I'm seeing some of you guys on this floor.

But yes, I'm the founder of a dating app called a late just kind of launching at the moment.

And I not traditionally from the dating world, like I actually worked in kind of marketing and business. And it's kind of different companies I go to and stuff. But we got into the dating world more recently and working with a kind of a company called Nucleated to build this app and trying to build something a little bit different. So, yeah. So it would be really interesting to hear what you guys kind of think and what your frustrations and stuff with the generally.

And then I'll try and give you a little bit of an insight on what it's like to kind of build one and what it's like to kind of try and match people in an app.

Okay. Well, thank you for being here, Sanjay. Well, while we're waiting for everyone to get on, what we'll do is we'll breakout into breakout rooms. And a topic of discussion is what what is your biggest frustration with dating apps? Hi, and I would say for me on my personal experience, like over the past, I'll say eight years, like it started off with plenty of fish and plenty of fish. And eventually, I got to say, this was like a year ago, I finally decided I just gave up without and deleted it off of delete.

It did not, like, clear my whole profile on the actual site. So I just delete the app because basically. On plenty of fish, for example. I was just never getting any messages from girls that I was interested in. I was just so basically I would always browse through girls close close to my area and I'll drop a message. I'll drop a message I try to make. I tried my best to make the message. The first message, like how you call.

Not to basic, but some to some until I start a conversation, and even now I still get I don't get a single message. I know they've seen my message. They've lots of high profile, but they don't respond back. So that's one. That's one. That's one frustration.

Okay, I'll just put you there. That's what we're going to do, is we're going to go into breakout rooms so we can discuss this in smaller groups. So if you want to discuss it there and what we're going to do is come back to Sanjay's brains of how to find a solution for you.

OK, OK, so I'm just going to send everyone in, will go for 12 minutes, so I'm going to force you should be about four minutes each. I cut you off. I don't know if you want to carry on where you were. Lost from my screen tastelessness. OK, I'll start off like I've been I've been on pretty much every social media to dating sites over the over the years, and for me, me and girls is basically just anything I do to try and like, I just try and get any girls I want.

It's just nothing seems to work for me because I never get anywhere because. Do you think I get with girls it's just endless rejections or time wasters who they're not interested, but they enjoy, like wasting my time one way or another. So I've tried many dating sites from 10 to from Playfish to tender to Cupid to him, you name it. And as I mentioned before, with with plenty of fish, I've actually had plenty of fish over a year ago because I was I wasn't getting nowhere like.

And every girl that I've met on that, no no one wanted to say basically, I just got one girl have got back to me, lots of my profile, but none of them got back to me. So I finally gave up without Amontillado are still on Tinder, but I just barely use it nowadays because. I already get a match, and if I get a match and I'll try to get conversation out of them, just enough conversation so I can get so we can like Gulfton, they'd like see like taxand what's up?

And they don't even even talk back or they'll just say a few messages and then you never hear from them again. OK. Yeah, okay, so that's quite a general thing about dating sites in general is not particularly about the app. It's about like online dating.

Yeah, yeah. OK, so so that's going to be about I don't know if you want to jump in, Sanjay, but I'm just going to say, if I was looking at that, that would be about who you were targeting. The profile that you've got. Something is is evah, not the right matches or that. But I but I think the focus we're going to talk about mostly here is how you can make the algorithms work for you, how what kind of profile.

Whereas I think this is more of a dating question than a dating app. Does that make sense, this is what you think, Sanjay? Yeah, so much on that, and I think it comes down not just to say hello.

Yeah, I can hear you. Can you can you hear, Sanjay this? Yes, well, I think one of the things that I was thinking about this is, you know, it's definitely a frustration that you will experience on one day. There's a couple of things that are fundamentally a problem with the industry that mean it's more like happen. The first one is the massive skew towards male users compared to female users.

So this stat is 60 40 in terms of the 60 percent men vs. 40 percent women. But that's like a general kind of industry wide thing. But it's on some it's far, far worse. So, like the likes of plenty of fish tend. I mean, there's been some there's some statistics that say that Tinder's like nine guys for every one woman, even on Bumble, which are apps that are designed for women or marketed to women, are it's it's way, kind of way more this way more men than there are women.

So that's the first problem. That is just something that unfortunately you just kind of have to deal with. The second thing is in terms of you talking about time wasters and and just kind of not getting anywhere. Another thing to consider is that not all dating apps like that, what you're trying to get from the app in terms of what you're looking for in terms of relationship makes a big difference to the type of that you should use. So I would say never use something like plenty of fish if you're looking for a relationship.

Never use something like Tinder just because the way that the apps are designed aren't made to optimize to a relationship. So Tinder is primarily superficial, even though if you try really hard because it has the most amount of users, you could probably find a relationship on that. My ex I've met on Tinder a few years ago, but ultimately it's a it's a much harder slog because it's a lot harder to find out who is there for what. And then and the other thing to think about is, is the barrier to entry in terms of how easy it is to set up an account.

The easier it is to set up an account, the more time which is you're going to have basically because there's no qualifying of the person who's coming onto the app. If you're going on Tinder, you can do it with a couple of pictures and not say a single thing. And so there's no guarantee that they're actually going to be worthwhile talking to. And a lot of people and there's a lot of stats and data that shows that actually there's a good proportion of people who you go on dating apps like Tinder simply for, you know, to to to kind of pass the time as a game.

I mean, if built like games for a reason, because it keeps people in the. Mm hmm. And another thing like like because if our belly still use and send up a hell of a lot less, because with the experience which I've mentioned before and I've been watching different many YouTube videos, like, I know different Maysam, go out and meet girls outside of the online world as well as. And that unlocks a different day in culture and political parties where they say like, oh oh to do like to go out and meet girls, oh, you must say they saw you must do this or do they do that and go out, go out in the open public knowing in the streets like.

So if we can pull out in a sense and I see girls walking about and just go out and start approaching them all, like our approach goes in on the nightlife life, like she's been looking at looking outside the box, like not limiting myself to just only looking at dating apps.

But guys, I'm going to stop you there because I want to talk about for everyone is so that we can get the most used dating apps. So we're going to do is we're going to talk about dating apps for now, problems with dating apps. And then at the end, when we going through that, we can discuss your particular situation and the questions you ask more of a generic dating rather than what I want to do in our time here is get my most out of dating apps and use them in the most effective way.

So if you have to answer that question, we'll get back to that later. So if anyone else wants to talk, but before they do, if everyone could put some something in the chat, in the chat box about what your biggest frustrations are with dating apps and online dating.

There are some technical things, yes, that can companies do some tricks and they absolutely have some sort of shut out like automatic generated message to people to keep Zino on. And it's not real people. They're some sort of officier algorithm somewhere on their abs or. Yeah.

I mean, can they have fake profiles and can I make it look easy? You mean like they had can I have fake profiles and some scam people.

Sort of, yeah. Or maybe just to keep people on in their tracks. So when sometimes you log into some dating apps and you just immediately started chatting with someone and all you do is ask questions, but you don't really learn anything and you keep answering and you don't get what you ask, which is you don't get a reply at all these sort of things. So this is something made by a company or it is some kind or. Like, what we're doing is we're going to collect the list of problems and in a sense it's going to take us through exactly what the problems are, why and how you can overcome them.

So so, yes, that's basically. Later, about it's about fake profiles or about fake profiles, keep making it look easy. It is. And people engaging people kind of leading them to it.

So this is two ways of looking at it. So one, which is the actual app itself, which is easy because I wouldn't say that the apps themselves are the companies themselves. If we're talking about the likes of 10 to 20 flash all of these big companies, I wouldn't say that they're doing it. Maybe some of the smaller ones, there's what they call them, the affiliate apps. These are basically rescanned versions of of apps. And the whole purpose of these businesses is literally just to get get users in cheaply, make them pay some money, and then they don't care if they lose them because they're not actually trying to get them to match with anyone.

They're just trying to get some money from them. And these companies just constantly spending money on time performance out of paid advertising to bring you in. So that's certainly the type of company that potentially has those sorts of kind of tactics because they're not likely to retain users very well and they're just going to want to try and get you in their place of money. And then if they lose you, they don't take the money, actually. The problem with the bigger apps and things like Tinder that is that there are it's literally big business in in terms of there are entire companies that are in Eastern Europe where they create profiles and they they literally just trying to they're just a bunch of fraudsters.

And they they go to these industry events even though, like, it's well known within the industry that they're kind of creating it. So. It's a problem I wouldn't necessarily say it's always the company itself that's doing it in some instances, it's like so there are certainly some companies that will be creating profiles to make it seem like there's more people on there if they're just trying to get you to kind of pay for a subscription or something. But then on the flipside, there's also a lot of companies.

It goes again back to us. And the the how hard it is to create a profile, the easier it is for them to kind of the fraudsters and the kind of people who are just trying to, you know, to to create the profiles. I you see in Central Park, you can. AK. Unless there's anyone else who's got something to say. And. Yes, sure. Are then, John? Yeah, I just find people that tend to be addicted to using the dating app to talk to people even when they are dating or when they move to a relationship.

Like, when you feel bored, you want to find someone to talk, not seriously. All right. I don't like it. Especially I. I met my. Plus the X from our front door, and we were in a relationship for two years, but he was using Tinder is doing when we are worrying relationship. It's not just happened to me.

It's also happened to so many of my friends around me who, you know, feel bored and switch left and right, just just talk to people and not seriously enough or even when they're in a relationship. Some of them might flirt with other guys or girls. I just started because I find this happens. I think when you feel what you want to use social media getting attention. Yeah.

Okay. Yeah, I think we'll talk about that when we get into more and more depth and. But I do think that is is one of the things I think Sanjay will be able to talk about that later John.

Yeah, I've had mixed experience with. Various dating apps, largely Tinder and Bumble, over the years, I had a two year relationship, it was really good with, um, a Dutch academic and that was great, I must say. Um. I. Feel inhibited by the fact that on a stroke survivor. I made the very good strike survivor, you know, that's what I do as my job, but I'm a barista. I'm representing. Disabled people in claims on the equality rights and.

Think there's a lot to say about it and passionate about it, but I sometimes wonder whether. There's two things which. Conclude the algorithms really working for me. Firstly. It's such a small. Narrow band of people who are disabled and are coming on to website dating websites and to. Maybe if your. Kee. Material concern is how much money to people spend. You have to get them excited by your website and you want loads of people and loads of things that the small groups like, for example, disabled people.

You're never going to get a bomb because what's the point, because they're disabled and they you know, you have versity pretty poor and university university, you know. Frankly, who cares? I mean, that's a maybe a cynical view, but I'd be interested in what Sanchez? And so just to recap, so kind of concern is that the disabled community is definitely under represented and underserved, basically kind of the summary of what you're saying. Yeah, yeah.

I think I think you're right. I don't know of any specific service. I'm sure there probably is. But I'd have to look into it whether there's a specific service for kind of people who are differently abled. And but, yeah, the problem with certainly the bigger ones is that they are designed to be as broad as possible. And so and to kind of put as much as much focus on the users doing the self selection as opposed to then kind of catering to each each different type of segment, I think.

And then on the flip side, there are countless kind of niche dating sites and in fact the majority of new dating sites and dating apps that come about on these apps because it's easier to try and build something that is the same as all the others. But after a specific target market, as opposed to trying to create something genuinely different in terms of the app itself. And so I guess the hope is that that you could be served in that way, because then it's kind of literally capturing those people and and providing that.

But then on the flip side, you the I think the better longer term solution is to just have the major sites and major apps kind of serve them better. So unfortunately, there's not really much I can say in terms of like how we get to that point. But it's a definitely a really good. Thing to raise and hopefully we can kind of move to something. It's certainly something I be thinking about. So this is quite a few I'm going through and trying to make sure everything from the chat, but what I thought would be interesting was if we were to break out into breakout groups and consider.

So still a lot of these. Of these problems, from my view, originate from this, there's a conflict of interest where if you're a user on an app, you want to use the app without buying and you want to get the best match. And whereas the app has to make some money. And so there's always going to be that pressure to push people towards towards paying. So. One way of understanding the problems is if we were to think of what would be the perfect map, what would be the perfect that you would like to use, one that's also going to be sustainable for the company to continue making it.

And so what would be the things that you'd be willing to pay for? What would be the features that you'd want to eliminate? So the discussion is to create a wish list of the perfect app. Yes, everyone, everyone, I just wanted to raise some points, I think, with what you said is definitely regarding paying for the jobs.

For example, I wouldn't mind paying, but I would want some sort of support or guarantee that this app would be able to match me to someone. So I think what that offends me from buying many times is that I feel that maybe it's not worth it or it is not going to work, you know. So also, if the apps or the websites have some sort of how can I say like reliability or some sort of can can give some guarantee that, OK, we are doing this and the potential to work is quite high, then I think paying will not be that bad.

But then again, I've never paid for my website or for an app, so I don't really know.

Yeah. I mean, I would say I'm glad you spoke up because I was looking at not matching to some clarity, but I think I get that in a sense of that you would have pay and then you have met anyone.

Yes. I mean, I think it's one interesting point is what Sanjay said as well about we need to be able to realize what we what we are looking for. So, for example, obviously on Tinder, we will probably not be able to find the citizen relationship. I think this is a problem that I have. Maybe I'm not looking at the right websites and apps, but I think, again, because because as I mentioned as well, there are some websites that they just I think was Sanjay or you.

I forgot that. Just want to make some money then, you know, it keeps people a little bit like, should I, should I pay, should I not? So maybe a website that can give some sort of not a guarantee because nothing is guaranteed. Right. That some sort of like it has some reports or some history of doing well. Maybe it exists, I don't know, maybe I've never been more troubled. I think the problem with that will we'll get Sanjay to talk about on that later.

But I think from my understanding, one of the problems of that is I talk to a lot of people and often there maybe similar to my age, maybe in their 50s, and they've set their profile to 20 to 30 year old girls. And so it's.

The app can't help you if what you're looking for, you know, like your target market isn't receptive. Yeah, no, of course.

I mean, that doesn't make sense. But also this question of algorithms, I think occupants of a register that I'm not using that much, but I think they are quite good because they have all those questions and then about interests, different interests, and then it matches with people with similar interests, interests as you. And then it gives them a percentage level of like how much do you match with the person? I think that's that's quite good. Yeah.

But I believe maybe in the future with what advances in technology, maybe we'll get better matches at the moment.

Well, yeah, definitely. Hopefully. And I think Sanjay might have some ideas on that. And so. I think it's better if we break out now so that you are able to come up with your ideas like wish-List and obviously, Sanjay, if you don't join the breakout groups, because that's not good for your group, an unfair advantage. And what we will do in the meantime is we'll work through the issues based on what's in the chart, and then that will give us some time to to work out what issues we're going to talk about afterwards.

Okay, so the topic is building a perfect that fire will be 12 minutes. Just a minute itself, if you want to talk about Bae and I was talking to my crew and I suggested that we need to have some kind of built-In interaction. So I was saying something like a speed dating app or some kind of like game interaction. So you can you can go you could play cards or there's no play word games and you meet up with the group.

So ends up becoming a fun, a fun session. And you can then chat to somebody if you like them. And and then, you know, at the end of the session, you tell me anyone doesn't matter. You had a fun time of interacting and then you can attend the next session, next week, for example. And you could do is a pay as you go or you could pay ten out of ten sessions at a discount. So it's Beltane interacting.

I like that idea because it takes I think it takes the pressure off of dating because it you've got is quite intense one on one, whereas if you've got like a triangle, it diffuses the attention and it makes you can sort of see. A different size of someone without too much pressure. And also, you want to see how other people interact with each other. I think that we've been lost too much to virtual reality. It's getting deeper into the whole virtual world of everything the like.

I think that that's the direction the public is going to head in anyway, because I think technology is going to head in that direction. Or maybe not. I think that's a downside today, you're an optimist, so they might be a profile, for example, on a two day picture. I wouldn't necessarily speak to that person, whereas if I'd met them in real life, heard them speak and saw the mannerisms, the tone of voice, I might be attracted to the.

Does that make sense? It does, it does. I think I think perhaps it depends. I think it would work for certain people because I think some people are quite nervous about dating and that one to one is quite intense, whereas it is diffused. I think it might then. I think the thing is that people go at different speeds. Some people just want to meet again in real life and some people are uncomfortable with that and want a long time chatting.

Someone else in our group actually mentioned having group meetings, but after I've been to sort of group meetings in real life and I'm just fun, there's a lot of competitiveness and it sort of becomes a big party because they might be one nice guy at the table. And rather than people thinking, OK, who's compatible with who, it's more OK for exploring that because it's just it's very competitive rather than more often than anything else. Yeah, I went on the.

Virtual speed dating. And the put you all into the same room and. And you get some people with quite overpowering personalities who are just trying to talk over a lot of the others saw with been drinking. So that personality might just think, well, I'm just going to talk over people. We're trying to talk a lot more. Look at me. And I'm outgoing. I'm really upset. So you just don't get the word in edgewise. I'm trying to describe a scenario.

It was it was obviously you had your individual speed date and then all thrown into a room at the end. But you've got 15 people in the room. It's not true to life of true speed dating, which not too many times what I've done about three times in. Six years and you don't tend to have 15 people all clustered together where one person or two people are all trying to talk. Wasn't although the speed dating section was true to life a bit as much as you would get drawn down, the throwing everybody into the room was a and I'm just crying.

I agree with what sometimes you get somebody with a personality like I got to not being able to get to talk.

It was that online does. It was it was it was up. Yeah.

I mean that's really difficult isn't it. Because you know, I'm saying you always do get somebody who's a bit more overpowering and you can't get word edgewise. You can't read people on the same at all. You haven't got when you meet somebody in real life. I think events need to be firstly, I don't want to do stuff on Zoome. I don't want to do something on the Internet. I want connection in real life. I want to because you don't know until you meet somebody how you're going, how they're going to make you feel because we're all linked energy and and it is about, you know, that you can hear the tone of voice.

You can, you can pick up social cues. You can't pick up social cues across the Internet. It is for me. I mean, I like the idea of kind of games and activities and doing stuff that's really dictating.

That just is my words, not on the range. They could have upper range sort of outside of me or groups.

It's quite a lot and actually springing up, there's one that's called what, my friend Charlie or something like that.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, I've seen that one, but it's it's been a bit postponed at the moment because of a cold weather. But just.

Yeah, they just started up last week, I think again. So there will be more I've got on one yet I'd be interested in what I could think about and stuff like that to this point.

It's it can be competitive, I can imagine, because the gold for the people setting up there is to meet someone.

And what's the name of that site? Sorry. Oh, my friend Charlie, my on Charlie. But I don't know that they have that many events and certainly not where I live. Yeah, I think they're a bit focused on Nitra. Under the. And John, John, you had some say, I must agree with Jenna and Sasha, that I, I look on. What marks my perfect dating site as. Of people having a certain amount of flirtatious Internet chat and then meeting and meeting as soon as you can, because the person who you profiled the different from subtly different from the person who are Internet chatting to you and subtly different from the person who was.

Actually on. In real life, attending your first blind date, and it's very different, different to sort out. You're attracted to and unless you meet them, I also said as a joke, but maybe it's more serious than a joke. I think that not Nick and Sanjaya, it's not a perfectly proper that you are asked a series of questions. You can, but we. Taking that users are in a position of power. It may be what you want to talk about, but, you know, I would certainly be not adverse to meeting up for a drink when Kovac allows us for the people here.

And it's like people not for the dating app, but to exchange war stories because, you know, it's so interesting hearing different people point of view and different forms of life and some of which are the same of remotely the same as mine, some of which are completely different, but. Equally well, horror stories, anyway, that's what I'm saying. That's that's basically what I mean, the fact that this militant group is not to meet someone today, but to meet people, to discuss relationships and dating so that we can go back to dating and relationships with a different perspective that we came from from other people's experiences.

Yeah, I think we were talking about this specific one, the whole purpose of this one was literally to do that, to talk about horror stories, war stories on dating apps. And then if I can give some sort of perspective on or at least some sort of context as to why it might be that and you could hopefully use that to get something out of it, then that's great. But otherwise, yeah, just talk about what you like, what you don't like.

We had a bit of a difference in our group because Richard was talking about basically the idea of being in an app.

You should get up as quickly as possible.

But I kind of I'm quite excited about the idea of algorithms, but I don't know anything about them. But I just feel that we're right at the start of the algorithm and the algorithm is like so shockingly bad. Why is it why is it saying you're Taurus your Aries? Oh, you should sit in the same room. You like cats, you like dogs.

These are the things that make relationships work is like what I actually believe in life and what's in my head or what I think about relationships or communication or maybe what I'd like to do. Why are you still saying do you like dogs or cats? I mean, that does not you know, let's just not have a pet. But it's not really where algorithms like cats and dogs.

I think there's a lack of underlying relationship knowledge. I think as a society in general, when we look at. When you even just the subject of psychology is only 150 years old and we've got a society that is probably twelve thousand years, and so this little knowledge, I mean.

John Gottman has called my research, but before before that, there is very little on what makes relationships work. And so I think then you've got so taking sides who are going to work on what's in the mainstream knowledge. Sanjay, I'm going to pass over here now because you've got we've got the gist of what the problems are. And yeah.

So that's I mean, you're completely right. They're not they're not as sophisticated as you think you are. And the objective of the way to the algorithms of Bill are probably not in the way that you think. I can't talk for them.

Obviously, I talk to our own, but none of these apps or sites really broadcast exactly how they do it. They do to an extent, certainly like to keep it because of the way that they talk about it.

But, yeah, you're right.

They're not I mean, they're not designed to, like, understand you as a person and then match up with someone else and quickly touch on how it works because without boring the hell out of everyone on the call.

But there's there's like the there's. There's what's called what is the filtering, which is just what you would have as your deal breakers and just what you said as your kind of wants and dislikes. And that's an easy enough thing for any of the apps to do. And it's interesting, there's lots of talk about exactly how much of a deal breaker a deal breaker is, because you you can you can always go to narrow and put too many stipulations on especially the things like height, because like if you say you want this hard to decide and then you miss it by one inch, you could miss that perfect person, that sort of thing.

So there's the most basic in terms of filtering. And then there's this. You'll find that the majority of apps use something called collaborative filtering.

And what that is, is basically it's like Amazon's recommendation. It's the same type of thing that you see in Amazon where it says you like this. So are some other things that you might like. And because these apps aren't trying to understand you as a person, they're just looking for things that indicate that you might match with someone. So tender is a really good example. Like Tinder is not is the objective of Tinder is not to get you a relationship, it's to get your dates.

They don't even record when you do get a relationship. So they have no way of optimizing to that. And they don't take any information about who you are as a person. It's very, very superficial. But then on the flip side, they've got very, very they've got probably one of the biggest kind of machine learning teams in the industry. And that's with a lot of money into it. But it's very much based on you like this person.

So other people who would like that person also like this person. So here you go.

They do have the ones that are kind of more predictive and trying to, you know, based on say like, OK, Cupid and an eHarmony where they try to look at who you are as a person. But even then, it's like trying to limit it to the absolute most important kind of indicators that you're going to find something in the matter of the person who I think in the data team eHarmony has even said that it gives you this kind of scale.

But they largely ignore what movi if you don't have a really strong opinion one way or the other. So because it doesn't it doesn't it's not a strong enough indicator that it's going to make a difference to. So the best thing when you're answering those questions is to have a extreme opinion one way or the other if you think it's going to have an impact on who you want to see. Some Flemington's, yeah. Did anyone else have any thoughts on that, like how they match or how they are, how they feel like the algorithms work for them?

So I have questions for this stuff, so it seems like for me I'm from Washington, the background, by the way, it seems like recommendation system at Amazon and or any online shopping website seems like still algorithms kind or the problem is a bit more complicated than dating, because dating you already give some data. So it seems like doing this matching is is a bit easier than the communication system in Amazon. But for me it feels like the companies are, especially if you are free, not being is not like very keen to to do this kind of matching.

As as Rob said at the beginning, there is sort of a tradeoff between do the matching and ending some money. So, for example, if I collect match on some electric light and then the app gives me my profile to the same person, I bet life on the profile and gives him the chance to say, OK, I like this guy, I will end up having Nashat in every way. And then the company will look at how much it's so far from where the company would get money.

Then if it is, everything will be perfect. So it seems like at least for me, for me, from my background, it seems like the problem of doing a recommendation on some website like Amazon is much, much harder to do it in Web and dating apps. So it seems like the companies are doing some sort of not doing it or you don't want to do it to gain some profits out of it or I don't know. Yeah, I think I think it depends on which company you talking about.

I'm sure there are some that do put a lot into it. Coffee meets bagel is one that I know puts a lot of effort into that algorithms. But in the end, it's still kind of collaborative filtering and there's only so many data points that they have. So there's only so much that they can predict and. I think it's easier if all you're doing is trying to match someone for a day or just to talk to, I think it's a lot harder to try and match someone that you want to have a relationship with.

I'd love to know, like, how successful eHarmony is, one is because they take something like one hundred and fifty questions to better understand who you are, and that's whittled down from the when they first launched, they started with like four hundred and fifty, I can say takes four or five minutes to do. But because they because it's so prohibitively expensive and you kind of can't really do anything without paying for it, it's kind of. And then once you do pay for it, it's amazing how many people come up into that kind of over one hundred percent mark and it's like it doesn't feel like it's battling them down at all.

You know, there's one thing that the dating industry certainly suffers from quite a lot, which is a paradox of choice. And you think they bombard you with so many choices and distract you from kind of making a connection with one person. And how can you go to the lower point? Like, you know, these aren't the algorithms aren't doing a good enough job of actually picking someone for you. And so you basically have to do all the hard work yourself.

So, Sandra, my question to you is, see that you are an expert on all of the things that are not quite right. How is your side going to be different?

I can show you guys, actually, if you want, without it turning into like a sales call. But actually, I'll just pop the link, and so there's three there's a few different things that my app does. So firstly, talking about interactive choice, you can only talk to three people at a time. And so you you can continue matching with people, but they go into a queue. You can't see who's in it, and you only become available to talk to them when you both have a space free.

And so when you want to talk to someone, you you have to remove someone or you have to end the conversation. Hopefully ends on a positive note to say that you you've met up. But either way, the other person gets notified. So you can't just post them. You can't just say you can't just stop talking to them because you can't talk to someone you so the other person will at least be told. And then the other thing is you have to give feedback, private feedback, the feedback.

So you have to rate the person essentially. And that's done primarily so we can tell if someone's a good person to the community or the person to the community. So if you are your ghost or if you're rude or even things like your picture doesn't look like you, you really are, if you keep getting that feedback will do something that's called shadow banking, which is just means you won't get saved by anyone else. But on the flip side, if you get because people can still like each other but then not want to date them.

So if you get things like they were polite, respectful, all that stuff, then we'll try and help you more. And you want to keep pushing for you in terms of the algorithm side of things. We don't have the money of Tinder and stuff. So what we have focused on is actually spitting out the kind of the personality and the look side of things.

So right now, if your friends on Tinder, it's very passive. Visually, it's very, very superficial. So you kind of only match on that. But what we do is we take the bios and we show them without pictures first. So you match on the personality and then that unlocks their profile and then you can see if you match on that to actually chat with someone. So it makes it a little bit slower to see. You can't go through them as many profiles.

But the idea is the line I use is easy to find someone you fancy, harder to find somebody like so.

And that's it, that's I probably tried to put too many features in something that's brand new, but which is why it takes me so long to explain to people that hopefully it makes a difference. And the whole thing was it all came out of. Trying to create something which was less toxic than some of these other ones and these these these apps are very, very well designed for what it is that they need to be. There's a lot of kind of gamification that comes out of things like Tinder and stuff, and it's addictive for a reason.

But it also means that people tend to encourages bad behavior. Not that necessarily people are bad. There are some people who are. But, you know, there's a certain level of anonymity. So there's no there's no responsibility. Whereas if you are rated on something and you know that you want to see if you are bad, actually that changes things. So so is that from your personal experience? A bit, yeah, yeah, so I think I saw when I got back in the dating game, like in the middle of last year, and like I said, I was a positive on dating apps because I met my ex on them.

But a different time when there wasn't as many and I think it wasn't as many people on there. So when I went back onto that, Tinder was like a cesspool, like it was just. And the thing I noticed about the Tinder in particular, what what came out of this is the number of women's profiles that just have a list of I don't want this, don't do this, and maybe just think, well, what the hell are the guys doing that so many women are putting this in their profile?

It's insane how many women, like, literally they're not writing anything about themselves or who they are and why we should date them. They're just saying, don't do this, don't say that, don't talk to me through this. And it seems to be a very similar kind of conversation. I've got a lot of female friends and they have a tendency to show me the interactions that have with these guys. And it's just blows my mind what some people say on conversations like that they have and the messages that women get in saying, I've been chatting with a there's a an Instagram account called Abby does, but Abby does dating and she posts a lot of the crap that she gets and the horrific some of the things that she gets.

I don't know if that's if that's enough, especially the women on the call, if that's your experience or not. And yes, Cumbie. Yeah, can be quite mostly quite polite, but they can quickly take a wrong turn and I'm guilty myself getting swept up in it sometimes not to put the brakes on. And something happened similar last weekend and then he deleted himself. So what can I say? Well, that testosterone, that's. Yeah, that's free for all, isn't it?

Well, all the time. How to rein it in? I really don't know. How to rein in the attitude? Yeah. I yeah, because you have a reduced sense of accountability on these apps because, you know, you can just delete them and they'll never see you again. And there's no there's no. Yeah, there's no consequences to your behavior unless you get reported actions. All of the all of the apps, they do have the similar kind of reporting function.

If someone. Yes, you can report.

Absolutely, you can report. But the problem is, if someone deletes muscles and you don't know, you can't call them, why on our up?

You have to write them. You both get chance to write even if the other person.

So they call you saying that you don't see the face initially. You use it.

That's just you still you still can't match with them until you see your profile.

Just more like a filtering beforehand. So the profiles that you see, you know that you at least like their bias.

So the bias comes first, then the photo. Yeah, that's interesting.

And the site I've been using at the moment, I think they limit the number of likes that come through in a day. So that does make you engage more. Yeah.

To identify as Henjak quite henges a really good one. And I like I would say to anyone, is using like plenty of fish or tinder for like a relationship. Just stop using that. Like one of the main thing, I think in terms of people's experiences with dating apps is that they choose the wrong dating app for what they're trying to do. They're not all made equal. If you're after a relationship, go off to a relationship at trial, I I'm going to say that.

But the change is one of the like they they they're strapline is designed to be deleted and they don't allow you to just swipe left. Right. And you have to like a specific image or one of their answers. And it just the idea is that it's making you a bit more thoughtful and it slows you down. Whereas and it also means that you have to try a little bit harder to create, so you have to bother. I mean, I think we were talking about this earlier that, you know, she's guilty of not putting a biotin and.

Because it is hard and the same thing goes with like I think some of these other ones and, you know, it's and I do hear that sometimes it's like, you know, the worry is like when you create a profile, you don't want to go through that effort.

But the the thing I'd say to that is if you're trying to find something for a relationship or you know, something serious, then it's worth the effort. And that same thing goes for photos as well. You get people right. They don't put money aside or they put really old photos on. And now that kind of response is I don't have any more recent photos or I don't have to go out and take them, because if you're trying to find a relationship, it's worth the effort.

Can I just also mention that I did meet someone a few weeks ago and he told me on a few sites and he was actually saying it was elite, single because he was a barista. He was offered virtually singles to be on, not have to pay anything. They wanted him on it because he was a barista. So I didn't even realize it. That took place. So they're they're picking people and saying, well, we want you on our side and you don't have to pay.

Interesting, I didn't know they did that. I know there are some apps that kind of require you to be vetted. There's like one called the leak and then one called the inner circle. Like the league, you have to connect to LinkedIn and stuff. The most exclusive one is real are a way. That's the one the celebrities are on. Oh, yes, you have to be introduced by someone on there and they check things like your Instagram account so you don't have thousands, unfortunately, you probably are going to be on the lead because I heard about it and I just wanted to see if this thing was really true.

And to my group, I read out that I'm still sixteen thousand something. I'm another in the line in the queue, waiting to get to the head unless I pay because I am. And I joined in June. I think so maybe next year I might be, you know, a thousand or so, but who knows. So I. I don't know what you're going to get. So why should I pay to move of sixteen thousand the front of the queue to then be totally disappointed.

The league is so expensive as well and it's very expensive or expensive.

I don't know how they get away with charging charge. And it is worse because I love to experiment. OK, so I'm trying not to put an end to see what their inner circle is. Even worse, they are stuck on my profile. They can't understand my photograph. I think I had a very nice picture of myself and they tell me that I need to put in another one. I did it and I'm still waiting. It's ridiculous. That's.

Oh, let me tell you something, where you. Can you hear me? Yeah, I was about to ask you, what is your opinion on video chatting and implement the implementing sound clips on the second day online yet?

But I'm going to have to put it on there because I love it. I think it's a good thing, but I think the best of give another perspective.

So now I was talking to my friend about this yesterday because before covid, I was definitely the type of person I like. I'd rather just meet in person, like, just let's just go.

I mean, the one thing I did like is like telephone calls. I used to like very few people do that these days. I didn't mind it because I think it gets sent to someone. It's a bit more relaxed.

But now, since everything, especially because I'm working from home a lot more, I'm like I'm a bit more wary about meeting up with someone.

And actually, I quite like a videotape because you can get it. There's no doubt, like, there's no commitment to it being like hours and hours. You can kind of just chat with them and get a sense of who they are. And also, you can cut it short if it's just tell them you need to make dinner or something.

Yeah, but on the other side, the purpose is to go out there and by implementing the acting in both groups, we are increasing the time that people spend on the. As long as it gets to the same kind of outcome, which is a relationship, then I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing. And I think it from a trust.

And I think one of the from a trust and a safety perspective is a really good feature. It's just probably what people there's a lot of people who aren't comfortable doing it because. Video know just an awkward thing for a lot of people and. But I'm a I'm a fan of a fan of it. It is weird, like there's a couple of sites, there's one called the intro right now, which is the only does video dates and you can't chat to someone, you sign up and then if you match with someone immediately, just gives you a list of dates and you just pick and it schedules the date.

And so before that would have been like an in-person date, but now it's a different day.

What's that cool. Sorry, musical, the intro, never heard about that. Yeah, and my other question is, in your opinion, which are the the apps that you consider that are more you are more likely to have the relationship? Well alight, obviously. So, yeah, I mean, I think he is one of those apps, I mean, it's billed as a relationship app. You could say. I mean, Bumble doesn't really ask you enough about who you are as a person to really kind of it's ultimately and I still I know I hear about what males use as a hookup because it's still pretty superficial, obviously, stuff like eHarmony and all those things.

And so I kind of think of those as like more like like serious like relationship marriage kind of type sites and then relationship apps. There's not really that many, which is why I kind of launched it, because you want something that's, you know, that you can have something serious if you want it, but also something casual. So when you sign up to the app, you actually have to pick one of one of the other asks you, do you want something serious?

Do you want to be casual? You can change. It means that at least the person that you talk to, you know what they've said, there's no ambiguity.

I think one of the one of the issues that I see is. Often men will feel that they have the promise, a relationship to get something casual. So do you do you have any data on like how many what percentage of women there are if a man was to choose something casual?

I've read that I've got is that I know that there was a I think it's like only forty five percent of people on dating apps are looking for something serious.

But then that's obviously a wide spectrum of age and whatever else, especially because I think it's probably more younger users. I mean, it's like a way of life now for everybody at a younger age.

No. Yeah, I think that's I think that's probably one of the tougher things about something like Bumble, I think you can say whether you only want something serious or something casual. I'd be interested to see if people use that and say something serious and how often they experience a guy who's basically lying. Is that something people have experienced? Yeah, OK. I don't really know. There's only so much you can do to try and stop that, I think one of the good things that come about video dating is that they can't get to that.

Like they can't just rush into something. It's like there's a lot of articles that's telling. It's slow. Dating is coming back. The weather is turning into more relationships, I don't know what's motivating just the idea of like taking your time before you to really get to know someone rather than what dating apps have kind of made, which is like a rush to get to a day in a rush to get physical.

OK, I see the benefit of that a lot. People don't like it. Lot of people want something real. But I think really it means it's just an extra layer of safety, which is which is obviously a concern. Is there anything one of the one of the queries was about safety and about safety, and we got community social responsibility. Could you talk about the problems for apps with that and how they what they can do and what people can look for?

From the apps perspective, it's tough to like like you have to have it in your kind of terms. And conditions like Apple even makes you make sure that you've got something in your terms of conditions to say if it's a. Product that has user generated content that you've got some sort of layer that protects users from graphic or obscene stuff, which obviously we do, because you can report and you get a rating and it's it's a tough one because the problems and I'm generalizing here, but like the guy, if the problem is that guys tend to have is that fake account spammers and like Cognize women have that as well.

But then also there's the safety aspect for women and men. It's more prevalent for women. So, you know, we don't like I don't know of any app that does background checks. I don't know of any apps that really do anything that I would love to get to a point where I can have an app where we do things like background checks, proper verification at the most. Right now, you get apps will they'll verify you into the least.

Make sure that you're the person you say you are by holding something up or making a sign of something and a picture of yourself and then a manual real person or some sort of algorithm will check the photo to make sure. I think I think apps and sites should be going further. But the problem is being blunt is expensive. I used to work for a fintech app and in FinTech you were in finance. You have this thing called KYC know your customer, which is essentially a background check.

And I remember the stats on that. It was like five pounds per check. And that doesn't even necessarily mean a customer's going to stay even if they just sign up. If you're paying that much per check, it's a lot for business to kind of swallow if they don't get anything from you. So hopefully there are ways in the future that we can make it. But otherwise, it's just gonna be a case of try and stick with the sites in the App Store, make it a little bit harder to sign up so it's not so easy and then also have.

Try and do the slow dating thing, do the video dates, get to really know someone before you kind of put yourself in a situation that might be a bit dangerous.

So, Sanjay, I took a course recently, and you have you had to hold up like your passport or your driver's license, took a photo of you and then it compared them using facial recognition. Yeah, they use that to work out that I was made. And obviously that it's OK details as well if you don't do it.

Yeah. So that's. So there's companies that are specifically built to do that. And now your customer is what they call it in kind of banking. And so they kind of the way that they they're not going to like I like to detail the way those companies do it is that they'll have an algorithm or a computer vision looking at it to see if it can do it without that, like straight away. So in an automated process. But then there's a number of people who will manually check as well.

So if it gets flagged, it gets past the next stage, then they'll check it or the company or the user can request a manual check. And every time they do that, these companies like charge you extra for the manual checks because obviously they want it to be as simple and cheaply done as possible. So it is kind of possible, but then it's not crosschecked and it's not referencing or crosschecking like a database or anything like that. So you could just you could be a real person, but you could still be, you know.

Someone who shouldn't be allowed to interact with other. Something something else that was brought up was about the push like this, the whole fake profiles and the pushing people to look and the use of what people might use dating sites for things like Instagram followers and the push to pay to fly. So can you talk about the pressures on an app in order to to be sustainable and also. How that can be done ethically. And how users can can kind of judge apps on the.

Yes, it's kind of two things. One thing, the whole Instagram thing blows my mind, that's hilarious. When I went back on stage last year and like half the girls, I don't know, the guys do as well, like.

Yeah. Trying to get Instagram for her, hers, I have not a point of principle going to a single one of their accounts to check out. So, I mean, again, it goes down to like how much effort and how much the kind of app itself goes into, like weeding those people out, but ultimately they're not doing anything wrong. You know, if they want to put it out there and if they and they wouldn't do it if it didn't work.

It's like kind of spammers, right? There's you get so many of these kind of spam emails and they wouldn't keep doing it if it wasn't cheap and easy for them to do in terms of sort of what was the second part was like.

So obviously, dating apps have to get some revenue and they are going to want to as cheap or free.

So what's an ethical way of dating apps, dating sites, providing a service and being sustainable and being value for money?

I mean, it's it's definitely hard. I've definitely been told by a number of people and we're trying to do it because it's so competitive. It's so difficult. And the thing is, like I mentioned earlier, you've got these two types of sites you've got they'd like genuine, I guess would be a genuine site like Tinder or all of these big companies where they're actually genuine dating businesses. And then you've got these, like affiliates or these these companies that basically just take a risk and version of like Tinder or something.

They're not really putting anything into the product itself. They're just trying to get you on make money from you. So if they are if they spend five pounds to get you on and then you pay 30 quid for something, it cost them very little. And even if you leave them, they've made some money off that. But they tend to I don't know if like I don't know much about those companies, but they exist. It's a lot harder to build something that's genuinely good.

I think the best thing for the dating industry is, is how has been like subscriptions. That's what like a hinge. And Tinder I mean, Tinder is the number one revenue generating app in between 2010 and 2020. And it was only launched like halfway through the decade. It's like it is a money machine because of of of those products. But to get to that point is really difficult. I mean, all of these big sites that they're dominated by, a couple of major groups match great tinder, plenty of fish, OK, Cupid Whinge and a bunch of others.

And then the company that owns Biddu and Bumble and Luttmann used to be chapatti, their own, they're called Magic Lab. They're like the two big one or two of the biggest ones and the without again, without getting into, like, boring territory, like the industry territory is really interesting about the Magic Lab. One is that they launch things like Bumble and Chappie, which was a case in which they've now closed down, and even Lumin, which is the over 50s dating site or dating, and they launch it with a launch team and they tell you that this founder had come up with it and they've been building it.

But really, it's all been done in-house and it's not I genuinely like found a story. They just backed by a huge company. So I am not backed by huge company, I should point out so. And minds of free. So I'm actually just not making any money off it right now. It's more about just testing the efficacy of the app and see if people find it interesting and then we'll invest in more. And then, to be honest, I'll try and get back investment.

That's that's the that's the only way any of these kind of companies can really make it. And as they get a certain amount investment and then they rely on the investment until they're profitable. You're basically working to get a mass group of users and then work on monetizing.

Yeah. So the next phase will be adding kind of premium features. If there's enough interest basically to kind of run, it is relatively cheap once you've done the initial development, but the development, it needs to be ongoing. And so the next phase after this will be obviously try and get some users, which we're doing all right with it, considering we haven't fully launched yet, and then trying to get investment or deciding whether to kind of investment stuff to build premium features and then for it to be hopefully self-sustaining and carry.

OK, when will it be launched on Android, the bugbear mine, because I'm an Android user, so hopefully soon it's just we've we built it in something called reactivated, so it should work on Android.

But right now we're just focused on getting the iPhone version good and finding out all the bugs in that first. And then we'll pull it over to Android. So hopefully very, very soon.

But we just need to fix everything. And it should be done this week on the iPhone side. And then we'll see. Oh, yes. So imagine you've written and sarap sounds great, but the reservation is that has an element of China's social credit system. I wouldn't say that it's going as far as that. This is no berating or anything like that.

It's more a case of it flags to us that you. It's more a case of an extreme if you've been reported multiple times, if you've had multiple times where you've had a bad rating, then it's it's just an incentive for us to to kind of limit you on the app. But the other part of it is also it helps us understand why why perhaps you're not being successful on something. I want to get to a point where actually you get aggregated feedback because I think that's one thing that's missing as well.

So having someone to tell you what's going on, why why not being successful, I want to add in loads of layers of actual kind of much more active support, whether it's like people who can kind of help you with your profile, like right now, if any of you guys sign up to like you just apply to the webcam email and mention this.

And I'll I'll go through your profile and help you kind of optimize it and check your photos and stuff. And that's one thing I say to anybody is on every site. If you've got a friend, particularly one of the kind of topics, let's get them to check out your profile, get into what you said, because it's you can think it's amazing at the time. And then you get someone else. You can point out something that you might miss.

I think that's that's generally like when you look at businesses, everyone starts off, you know, like all the great businesses like PayPal and things like that, they all started as a different business. And it's actually the real.

When it was tested, they almost all had to pivot and become something completely different. And I think on a smaller scale, that's what we have to do with profiles is kind of get out of our own head to find what works. OK, I see, John, I see you've put the link in there, Sanjay, so. When so different apps work for different people, so we've seen on the call that some people prefer would like a video social interaction, some people wouldn't.

And still there is for some people and not for others, what would be the perfect group or personality of the person who would gain the most from your app? Simply on the spot. The big thing in Miami is about effort vs. so just the amount of effort that you put in, because I think that's one of the things that I was frustrated by with like 10 different bumble and stuff like that, where you could you could sign up to this people in a very minimal effort.

And I think is it plays into and, you know, it's easy for certain people, but others, it's certainly easier for women to guys because there's so, so many more men that women can do anything on that and still get tons of matches. I would argue that they probably don't get the right kind of matches because there's nothing on there to say why they should match with you. And so in my app is geared to people who are willing to put a bit of effort in.

And that's why I've kind of put the bio part first, because even if you really fear no one's going to see your profile if you don't bother putting something in, because you've only got to get to see their full profiles, if you like one of their answers. So if you like phone and, you know, want to see your profile, what's what's difficult about that?

It's always fun if you're not physically attracted to them, which is hard to fully get a grasp of anyway from a security picture. It's difficult to then reject them based on the looks.

Because that's it can come across very shallow or hurtful to the other person. Are you talking about the feedback? No, if you if you've if you've matched the profile based on the bio, you don't you don't match with them on the bio you as you kind of whittled them down basically. So you still don't do a full match unless you both liked each other's full profile.

I agree there that basically, you know. Sure, you know, a lot of a lot of people still a visual is still one of the key indicators are probably going to have to go into a of of Botibol, Keagan, a flush in science and you Barchester the go. So they disappear.

But yeah, I'm just saying that, yeah, I'm a visual person actually is it's not that not only that to somebody on head with no picture, you know, you say, yeah, they like football, they like this, they like than the old. Two weeks later he has made a picture on a Commonwealth like. Yeah, let's not lose the interest of being able to. I completely agree. Which is why you can't interact with someone just on their mind.

You have to like both their profile and their photos or what this is yet for me to encounter that book. I'm just I'm sure we're both wrong. The weather is still a high percentage. It's the only thing, but it is two or three high factors. Visual is one. Sure.

Yeah. As part of this, I read a 450 page doctoral thesis on Mashad, and that was one of the main things that comes out of attraction and looks is still number one. And you can't get away from that, that there are apps. There's one called Jigsaw Dating where it like it puts pieces of jigsaw over your face and so you can't see them. But then every time you match it. So every time you message each other to encourage it, encourage you to talk to each other, a piece of jigsaw disappears.

It's an interesting idea. But to your point, like, I wouldn't want to, like, have a conversation with someone, then be like and actually find you attractive.

But I do see.

Oh, he's gone. Is that one one thing I'd like to get for me, Sanjay, before we wrap up is.

In terms of algorithms, how can someone make the most of that, what would you advise someone on their profile to make the most? And how would you advise them to make the best use of the algorithms that we have at the moment on your side and on others?

So, again, it depends on what. So if you're talking about the likes of like Tinder and Bumbo like that, they use collaborative filtering and it's very much based on kind of with with those apps.

It's better to be picky than not be picky because it can't really give you recommendations if you just liking everything.

In fact, one of the things that I've heard another person say about like 10 different things, you can do an experiment on Tinder and if you start afresh profile and just like a very, very specific and narrow type of person, constantly, and eventually that will be what your entire field is about and which is actually that comes up with its own issues, because there's this whole thing about whether you ethnicity filters on. But to be honest, even if you don't have an ethnicity filter, you can still end up being filtered by that because of collaborative filtering, because you just get shown more of what that person previously liked.

So on apps like that, just be picky and be patient.

And on.

It's harder to say with the other things, because I suppose, like I said earlier, and if you if you've got like a a questionnaire type profile questionnaire, that they kind of they're going to disregard anything where you're kind of you like you have a middle kind of opinion on because it's basically not giving them any information about who you are or what you like. So the only thing to take note of is your extreme dislike or like good and bad things coming out of that, obviously, because it might mean someone who has a middle-of-the-road kind of opinion or something, but isn't as extreme on you that you won't get to see.

So it's it's hard, I think, to Gloria's point before like that, just just remember that they're not as good as you think you might think they are and be mindful of the kind of the constraints and the limitations. And and remember that one thing I keep saying is like, remember, it's better to think of these guys, these things as an introduction, not a dating app, because all it can do is introduce you to someone you still need to do the effort and the the work of finding out who they are as a person.

And that's what dating is about.

So you know that best any of these at any of these services, you can just introduce you to someone who's closer to what you're looking for, but they can't guarantee it. And hopefully they will do at some some point. And I don't want anyone's ever seen that Black Mirror episode. I think we're way off that. The. I do, as Laura said, I do think it's exciting. I do think with machine learning and increasing knowledge and awareness, I think we're going to be able to get much more accurate matches as far as computers learn.

What it takes to make a relationship and that's just going to need a massive data that we don't have at the moment. But yeah, I do think the definition of this, I think it's a good time to be. Getting on, I think, I do think is a very tough job you've got in how competitive it is and the limitations you work with, but I think kids are not seeing that right now. That really deals with a lot of the problems.

I like, you know, preventing the ghost thing and trying to limit people's options, which I think is another one of the two problems that makes people feel like commodities. On dating apps, yeah, at some point, that kind of and that's what I've said to people before where like I think there's this kind of assumption that everybody on dating apps, they're just horrible people. And it's like it's the people, not the apps. But we're all guilty of just behaving in a way like being led to our behavior by the service or the environment is is deemed to be shit.

And it's the idea that you kind of have diminished responsibility when you're in a crowd, like the reason why you see people who in a peaceful protest suddenly end up rioting when you would never imagine them doing that any other at any other time in their life. But it's just that kind of environment that sometimes brings out to you. And so that's what I'm trying to get out to, to create something that you don't have, an environment that kind of brings out the worst.

And these are actually designed to be like games that like the it's funny, the there's a woman who's like the chief scientific adviser of Match Group, and she said, oh, I'm so sorry, Helen Fisher. Is that.

Yeah, yeah. So she said multiple times that we suffer from cognitive overload and we can't really talk to more than three people at a time. Like we can't put a focus on three people at a time. And that was before I found out, after I made the decision to only be three. And but it's funny that she's the chief scientific advisor to Match Group. None of them implement anything like that and.

They because she was instrumental in having his chemistry come where she did the personalities of matching, of how they match, I, I don't necessarily think that the the criteria that she chose was that accurate. But that is perhaps one of the ones that is backed by research. Yeah.

And the guys who did OK Cupid, they were built by kind of mathematicians and stuff like that. So they they share a fair amount about what they've learned over the years. It's just a shame that since I don't know if they were bought by I think it were bought by much group. But when you look at the app now, it's kind of shifting more towards a like a Tinder type experience. They're prioritizing. They're like swiping now. So, yeah, it's I don't know whether whether they've kind of abandoned some of their principles, but yeah, if you ever wanted to be sad and look into all of this stuff, there's tons of material out there and links and really interesting stuff.

There's one thing in particular. If you want to learn about collaborative filtering, there's something called Monster MASH, which is by its POV, I think it was founded by something called the Mozilla Foundation, which goes and Firefox. And it's just these guys illustrating how collaborative filtering can be a problem for kind of. I guess racism, because it creates this system and kind of like you are saying, is that if you're on Tinder, you can just create a fresh account on just like a particular type of person.

And eventually you only see that person and is basically illustrating that. I mean, I found I Cupid is grateful to the data that they provide, and I haven't been on the date now for about four years, but that was always the one that worked for me. I have heard I think when we had this call before, people were saying it had changed and who wasn't wasn't what we used to be. Yeah, that's a problem with somebody. They're all kind of looking the same.

She's one group.

They're all releasing things like do speeches where you have to pay to be seen.

And yeah, that's not to say that I'm not going to abandon all my principles in a couple of years time and go for the money. But for now at least, I'm trying to do something different.

I just. Is there is there a difference between ethnicity's in terms of dating? Is it in terms of people's experiences? Yeah, I mean, I can say personally, yes, absolutely. Like, I, I mean, you get you get different types.

You get people who so like for instance, I mean, I have seen on profiles saying that they're not interested in Indian men or like they're only interested in white guys or this like the other, which when you only have a small amount of information to give on your dating profile, it's kind of disheartening to think that's one of the things that you put on there above all else.

And the big debate has come up more recently about ethnicity filters, about whether they should be allowed.

And this kind of two arguments for that. One on one side, it's like, well, you know, yes, he probably shouldn't allow them because it encourages people to only be matched with their own ethnicity and it encourages that kind of like racist kind of opinions. But then on the flip side, there are some people who experienced kind of feticide fetishization, like I've got black friends who like to hear about like or Asian, Asian female friends who like kind of get experiences of people matching with them, saying, oh, yeah, you really like exotic.

And I've never been with, like a black guy before or this, that or the other. And like, that's not a nice way of using it. So there's it's but then on the flip side, there are some people where ethnicity is a is an indication of culture. And so if you're trying to find someone who's culturally the same as you, then ethnicity feels might be the kind of right way to go. I know from my perspective, I don't really tend to want to filter by ethnicity.

I love all types of women equally, but I invariably get shown more female Asian women than I do Asian, any other kind of ethnicity. And in fact, I've even tested to see if I turn off the filter, if I turn on the ethnicity filter, whether it's the only type of matches I get or I'm just getting more of them. And actually, if I turn on the ethnicity filter and filter out Asian women, I suddenly get loads of like matches of other ethnicities.

But because I guess because there are more men than women, if I'm a kind of more of a commodity than women and an Asian girl has perhaps turned on that ethnicity filter, then there's only so many Asian men that they can find. And I'll be shown to her as if I was to be shown to other people. So even if I don't turn on the ethnicity filter because Asian women will be turning it on, I get shown to them more often than not.

Why do you think also people suddenly on these apps are suddenly kind of want to go after their ideal, whereas in real life I would probably say they wouldn't maybe they wouldn't have their ideal, you know, they wouldn't come into it. But suddenly it's a bit like I read somewhere. It's a bit like buying a pair of jeans and you finding perfect pair of jeans in the shop. You put them back on the hanger and then you go off to other shops to find other other pairs of jeans because you want to find better than the first pair of jeans and you just kind of think with an app.

Does it make you kind of like want to go after your absolute ideal, your perfect, your dream? And it's not actually very realistic. I think so, to a degree, I think that's the comes down to that paradox of choice thing where you kind of you always distracted by like what's next? What could be like? I don't think that's why I like on late, you can only talk to three people because then you focus on those three people and you do have a match here, but you can't see who's in that match.

So you're not like, oh, I want that person next, though. I'm going to get rid of the person right now and. And there's also there's been lots of studies and talks about deal breakers and about how important or not they are, because you can, yeah, like you said, go down the route of, like building this master list of all these things that you want. Actually, there's a really good TED talk by a woman who actually would argue that it is better to have all these deal breakers because she wasn't being picky enough.

And it's about I think it says how I hacked online dating or something like that. And from her perspective, she put in all of these different things that were important to her and then and basically did what a dating app does and score them in a certain way. And then eventually she and her husband. But then on the flip side, there's loads of reports and studies to say that actually a deal breaker isn't a deal breaker if you were to meet them in person like.

So if you're putting loads and loads, deal breakers on on things that actually you probably wouldn't care about if you'd met them in the real world and actually got to know them because you can't find an ideal, perfect person. That's just that's not how things work. Well, kind of went off on a tangent, I'm not sure about your question. Yes, OK. Yeah. I flip between putting loads of filters on and sometimes not like there are certain things to me.

I just I try and think, well, OK, I've just they they're an indication of the type of person I get on better with. And so I use them. But then other times I just turn it off and and just kind of let the algorithm do what they do. I know in my experience, often people aren't very don't have a clear enough idea of what was going to make them happy. It's like the Daniel Kahneman stumbling on happiness that in his research basically shows that people don't know what's going to make them happy.

And in the same way, a lot of people. Their checklist of their perfect person isn't won't turn out to be the perfect person over time. Yeah. OK, I'm conscious that we've got run over time, Sanja, I don't want to keep you here too long, but is there anything we haven't asked you that we should have done or anything you'd like to to get across? And also if you get across, because also this is being recorded as a podcast.

So I know that you've put a link some people have asked, but if you want to find out where people can find you and if you're internationally based. Yeah.

So we're not internationally best yet. Right now we're just in the U.K. It's called a late, but the I couldn't get a dot com.

Someone else at that said the euro is a late date dotcom and that's Elfatih date and dot com. And then the Instagram account is also at a late date right now.

The Instagram account is largely dating names, which are very funny, if I do say so myself. I mean lot other people's names, to be fair. And but yeah. So you can find anything you want on the site or on the and if you ever want to message me, you can just kind of message me on the Instagram account or go to the site and I think you can email hello at a late date dot com.

Like I said, if you guys want to try it, download the app, install it. If you mentioned this, meet up in your reply to the welcome email that you get from me, I'll help you kind of craft the right. I'll take a look at my pictures and and see if you can give you any tips or help. OK, thank you for being so generous and sharing your insights with us. Siller, you're welcome to stay on if you want to, but I'm conscious of that we've gone over the time that we we talked about, but I'm just going to stay on to answer everyone's questions, because what we did was we separated the questions from in terms of what were taking questions and what were up questions so that we could best use Sanjay's expertise.

You're welcome to stay on to answer them if you want, Sanjay, but I know you've been very generous with your time. So if anyone's got a question that hasn't come up yet, that's related more to general dating. I nighttimes had a question, if there's any other questions, then I'm happy to to answer those. And if Sanjay still about then we can also draw on his insight. Sasha. And just what Sanjay was saying before about I can't remember the term that was exactly used, but about how the sort of algorithm or the filter works when you view a certain type of profile and the more likely to show you more of a certain type of profile.

And I kind of feel like I've been sort of dating similar guys, if that makes sense. And that's now here in this is probably because they're showing me a lot of the same similar profiles. But you know how we are also attracted to things that we're familiar with. And I've also heard something about Afsal, so-called social EPICA. And I just wondered if there's any insight on. So if. Find in a profile that's potentially more likely to be a good match.

Those are all sort of wrapped up into one question. Yeah. So I think it's it's it's hard.

I mean, like, I go back to what I said before in terms of all I can do is introduce you someone. So you just have to take everything you get from a profile with a pinch of salt. You can't. They can't. There's only there's not really that a huge amount they can do to try and find out if this person is perfect for you because there's a limit, especially on some sites. Some apps are very, very limited.

Information comes about the person said, well, I would say, is that what just, you know, depending on how willing you are to do the kind of effort of, like reaching out and talking to these people.

You know, it's like I've probably talked to hundreds of people and dated maybe about 13 in person. Yeah.

And I just I just feel like I'm so if I don't even know what I feel, it's just like sort of getting monotonous now.

Yeah, I think I'm I'm big on kind of like like data and stuff and trying to look at my past conversations and and I think. I can talk myself personally, like one of the things that I think I've noticed about myself is that I do talk to many people and because of this kind of unknown, they could be they couldn't be the right person. For me, it's worth maybe just giving them a shot if I'm physically attracted to them, when really there are indications I can tell from their side in their profile that they probably wouldn't be and that I should probably be a bit more kind of.

Strict with myself and. Because it is just kind of wasting time and effort and it can just be draining, especially if you're talking to multiple people at the same time, which is why I guess why put that feature in my hat in terms of only two to three people?

Because it will force me to just be a bit more discerning and a bit more kind of can you fill it out down to want me as the person got the option to filter down to one if they want to know what I found with some of them is that you kind of put in the situation where you then end up having to talk to multiple people at once, even if you don't want to actually know what you can, because you have to talk to three people at first.

And then if you end those conversations, you just don't get the feedback and then they'll still keep the slot full.

And so you can just and then no one will be you won't get you won't get new matches into those free spaces. So you can just keep it to one. So you artificially you could just keep it to two to one and.

Yeah, I think it's the tough one in terms of what you can do to try and. One thing I would say is just it's not worth. It's not worth wasting time on people who obviously haven't made an effort in that profile. Because if they can't be asked to do that, then. It's very hit and miss that they're going to be asked to have a good conversation or really be serious about looking for a proper relationship. So, like, if I when I was on Tinder and stuff, like if a girl didn't write anything on her profile, I wouldn't say.


So there's a lot of conflicting advice, though, because on some things I've read is the less you say, the more likely you are to actually get an in-person date. Interesting.

So on what sites though, like on Tinder?

No, I'm not. I'm honest. So I don't know if it's hard to put most much on single Muslims, but I can't remember where I read the article. But it was basically saying that. So if you go into more depth in your profile, for example, and you put the effort in, you're a lot less likely to meet people in person.

Maybe that's a good thing.

No, sir, I would I would say that's probably because you've got more filtering. The more that you have, the more that you can rule people out.

Yeah, I guess so. But some do you know, sometimes you find that it's easier to meet somebody because you got a better idea of what they like in person, maybe that's where I'm going wrong.

What was your type when you say that you've been dating the same type AM? I don't know if I even feel it is the same type. I don't know how long has it been has it been the same sequence? Yeah, I think more the same sequence in the same time. And so when you say same sequence, what's been the pattern? So if. Sort of not talking too much online, wanting to meet in person and meeting in person, just not seeing.

Seeing it go see in the future, not seeing it going anywhere. Because you're not interested or yeah. Because there's this too many sort of too many issues in terms of life, because, of course, on so there's usually people come with problems and that's not really the issue is when I feel like the person's problems. Our. And how to I don't know how to express it are going to be more detrimental than not having a relationship. But is that true or is that sometimes people?

Sorry, what did you say? Is that true? My perception of it. Yeah, because sometimes people put these barriers in front of them. I'm not sure, to be honest, I think there's been genuine things where we've had like serious discussions and got to points where like one example where the guy was in a lot of debt and the way they handled money, he thought was a clever way to handle money.

I personally didn't agree. So that was a deal breaker. And so it's not like I've not had a serious conversation. So I just kind of feel like I'm going through one meeting with guys after another and sort of get into these various. One thing that comes to mind that perhaps you can talk to Sanjay is. Is there a kind of a dating you fatigue? We're dating for me, dating is basically sorting people into boxes of I'm going to I like the profile, I like the profile.

They don't like me. We're going to have a conversation. We're going to have a date. We're going to have a short relationship. And some people, I think this might be a fatigue of disappointments because they hope they break their hopes on each person. I yeah, I definitely you can get days without fatigue. I, I've had it, I'll go off them for a bit and that might be something you kind of would need to do that if you just need to take a break from that.

It's it is mentally draining. It's it's. Yeah, it's draining because dating is hard. You have to do a lot to try and it's not light and breezy and as much as some people would like to make you think it is. And in terms of the kind of profile trying to find like indications like the sorts of things that you're talking about are very tough to to kind of. Pull out the profile because they are deeper, more important questions that you need to just to find out from the dating process.

That's why it goes back to the point of when people say that it's best to put less information. So you got to meet the person in person face to face and then have more conversation. That's just personally, I don't like having a lot of information over the phone and through text and stuff, so. But what sort of information are you talking about, because there's information, so when I say, like people who don't put any effort in, I'm talking about people who literally if if the only information I've got on you is like your name, your age in some pictures, and it doesn't tell you anything about your personality or what sort of things you're into, then it's kind of hard for me to think that there's this is just me personally talking about it.

No, no. I hear what you're saying. There is a difference in what you're saying and what I was thinking. So I would say, you know, what sort of things are you thinking about in terms of what you're saying? Like, I'm sorry, I think the advice was put less in your profile, but it still says, you know, put some interest and put a little bit about yourself, but keep it very, very minimal.

I mean, it's just there's always conflicting advice out there. And I guess just for some people, I don't know, this is complex.

And I, I just one thing I'd say about that is that, you know, it's not a science. The advice is just opinion. We don't really have a body of knowledge to say this is this is the right way to go. And people who write articles in newspapers and who claim to be experts are just basically someone that they could, you know, journalists could find or was presented to them by a PR person. It doesn't mean that they actually have any real criteria.

You know, like people are always claiming to be the leading whatever expert. Based on the media appearance, which means that they had a PR person to get them booked, it doesn't mean that they're actually an expert in anything. And I don't think I think dieting is an all you can find is basically basically an advert. I would say Salangi is basically right and they get their interest to get them to the next level. And then it's just about then filtering through.

So from that perspective, I would say it shows something that gets them interested enough to start a conversation. The other aspect to my question as well, sorry, was that, you know, how we're supposed to be attracted to what we find familiar. Is there a way of kind of bypassing that and actually trying to become attracted to around a wider range of people so that you not because as well with the filters, as if they're always sending you the same types of people as well from what you've matched with in the past or what you view that makes that even more difficult.

From a product and dating perspective, then you just have to try the dating apps, which give you that kind of filters or those kind of like options, because then you can get artificially kind of. Change what your recommendations are, you can't, you certainly can't or just I mean, the ones where it's relying heavily on, like image that's that's not looking into who they are as a person and it's literally just who you are attracted to.

So if you're trying to find different type of person that you're attracted to, then it just means swiping right on a different type of person until you change the algorithm for yourself to be, you know, who, who who you want to be attracted to. But if it's about the person, the type of personality, then then you need to go to a site or a product that like and gives you those kind of filters and controls and. That makes sense.

Yeah, so I can kind of hear what he's saying, and I think I think it's more my question is probably not answerable and that maybe I'm trying to sort of find like robusto in some sort of science and knowing how to identify the right type of people or not. So maybe it's just a question that doesn't have an answer and it's just got to keep going through the mud.

Well, I think there is an answer, but I think it's I think that it starts with you. So you have to be really self aware of what need are you looking to feel in a relationship? Just, I guess, companionship and sort of a good friendship where you can rely on each other and trust each other and have good communication.

And so what? What characteristics? Does someone have what you felt that. I am. I guess compassion and sort of open mindedness in an open air. So really, the dating app is an introduction and then the dating dating is the skill that helps you to filter and identify that Quica is really, I think, what you're looking to do.

I know, but this that all of the sort of incompatibility is like wanting children. For example, most guys want children or an. You know, having money differences or, you know, some of the things that they say lead to divorce.

I think it just literally a process that you just have to keep dating and keep talking until eventually one falls into place, you can start moving into like the types of person like.

So things like children and stuff is definitely ones that would give you those kind of filters, whether they want children or not.

And I think that's a really important one. That's certainly something at some point.

Because you don't want to waste your time with someone who doesn't have that same kind of expectation in terms of like attitudes to money and lifestyle and stuff like that, that's that's really tough, I think, to try and get from someone ahead of kind of meeting them. I think you can look at the types of pictures, especially that they put up, what type, whether they like. It's a flashy lifestyle. That's maybe something you could do.

But it's quite obvious that it's but it's really hard to like. Yeah, I think it's really hard. I think I wish I could give you a better.

The general we usually heard is that you just got to keep trying. You've just got to keep getting to know people. And I'm just wondering, is there a shortcut?

And if there's not, there's not know what actually. OK, Cupid has questions. So many questions that you can actually answer. And it will undoubtedly have a pretty specific questions. And then you can write how important they are to you. So that might be the right. Have you ever tried executed?

I find it pointless because of my religious background.

And can you not specify religious background? Don't know.

Order. They are full of Muslims. OK, but I mean one of the biggest sites. So I would say with any of those ones, like they have so many people that they will definitely cater to enough people that you find a group that may pick the religion.

I'm sure you take their religion on that. You can pick them on most of them. I have a question. Is it that we're putting too much emphasis on the ability of the cops to do some of the things that we would normally have to do, that we would do it ourselves?

In other words, we would have to do the talking. We have to do the meeting, the talking, sussing out from our friends and whoever it is then whatever to find out what this person is all about, the families and so on, so forth. There's just so much that an app can do.

Yeah, I heard that you have to you have to negotiate with the other person, maybe in person or through conversation. The app can never there's a personal element that I don't think can ever track that adequately. Yeah, I think it's yes and no.

Like, there are some things that you should be able to expect the app to do.

I mean, one of the things about an opponent online dating services is it's an introduction site. So it needs to be able to do some level of screening for you because the alternative is meeting people in real life. And when you meet people in certain other circumstances where there's work or social interactions, there's added context from that environment that you can learn about them. So if it's work place that you meet them, there's a huge amount of context because you know, that profession, you know, that in itself has loads of kind of background to it.

So you should be able to you should expect that an app to kind of do something at some level of that for you. And if there is but then there's so many different types of apps as well. Like you can find contexts like this big push towards, like I said earlier, in terms of very specific issues of app. And that's one way that actually knew absolutely don't go after a specific product features. They go after a niche and like even like apps for people who like things like Bresler, there's people that apps for people who like uniforms, all sorts of different types of apps.

And that's why things like mass and calm and very specific ethnic apps that appeals to that people because automatic means you've given the added context. But it also might mean that you appeals to a certain type of person, maybe a narrower kind of, you know, because it is narrowing things and maybe then narrow in terms of the kind of personality. And that's a terrible thing. And I'm not sure what I'm trying to say that book, but.

Yeah, I think so, I think. But then on the flip side, you're right, you can't expect to do anything.

There's only so much that I can do is only so much that we can scream and everything.

I think as a result of that, we need to be careful about the things that we put down as deal breakers, as those things that we define as very, very important.

Because in some of what Sasha is saying, I get the impression that it's those intangibles that are really important to her, that you wouldn't necessarily find a box to take on an app, you know, in terms of what you what you want and what you're looking for in someone. And that seems to me to be where you have to go to the next stage, which is the conversation and the discussions and all of those kinds of things. Yeah, I think that's something that comes out over time, and I think that's part of the dating skills.

I think when you look at Facebook and you look at how much data they have and they have something like 400000 pieces of data for each person, and so they have and they've done an incredible job of to be able to sell advertising, they can pinpoint exactly the people who are going to click on something. People are going to buy them something. And I think in time, dating will get there. But at the moment, we don't have the body of knowledge.

We don't have the what points are critical. It's quite rudimentary, you know, when you look at relationship research, I mean, the governments can identify what relationships are going to last, but it's based on how they argue. And so that's because there's also there's the person but this is looking for an app to do to solve the problem is believing that the person is a fixed thing where people are change and people are going to change over five or 10 years.

The same person will be different in a different relationship with someone else because they'll show a different shade onto that person. And so I think one of the problems people do is filtering too much is they rule out people who, given the context, given the right partner, could become a person. Not not in the sense that you can affect someone who is dangerous or who isn't isn't a good match. But someone who's in the ballpark of being close can be different in the right relationship.

So therefore, it's to strike the right balance of predetermining factors that you're going to be using in your profile, your criteria, rather, because I think you can be so specific that you screen out potentially. Good, good, good, good people. Yeah, yeah.

I think it's about connection. You look to connect, to connect with everyone, whether they you don't get along with them. When you do get on with them, you still connect at the level so that you leave each person feeling better for having met you. They may have other friends, but you just grow your network from that. And I think it's connection and then seeing it's not looking for the relationship too soon. I don't know if this is something that you've thought of or looked at, but one of the problems I see, Sanjay, is lots of people get into the you know, like typically on dating sites, you've got this in this box or I'm not going to talk to you.

And I feel that people should connect, see how they connect and then let the connection fall to whatever level, whether it's deep, whether it's superficial. And from that point, then you start to see who a relationship is going to work with. Yeah, it's it's I think you have to I think you have to do some work on yourself to identify like think about what what is really a deal breaker, because there's definitely bodies of work that say that, you know, people put sometimes with deal breakers when they shouldn't be.

And actually, you know, even things as simple as smoke, smoking, you might say that's a deal breaker cause you don't want to be with someone else. But then when they've done studies to show and get put together people and hide those information that information and hide them and say, look, I think there was one study in particular I'm thinking about. They like introduce people together. And then afterwards they told that person, oh, by the way, they're a smoker.

Is it still a deal breaker?

No, no, it's not because of not. So, yeah, there's that side of it.

I think one thing that we haven't spoken about, which is something that I haven't figured out yet, but I want to it's like the next stage is how do you how do you stop these conversations? How do you connect with someone because. I'm like a dating app is only taking care of the introduction, the part that's really hard is the first is the conversation that comes after. It's all well and good saying you and I try and match with this person.

But then how do you generate rapport and a connection that's really tough on online dating and stuff? Because some people like it's really tough to do on chats. It's definitely tough when you're talking to so many people that you just get a bit drained asking and answering the same questions again and again.

So I think that's going that's what we were saying earlier. I think it's important if you're getting fatigued by to step away for a while because you're not going to put the right effort into the interactions and that's going to be negative for you and the person that you're talking to. Whereas if you give yourself a bit of time away from it, you come back to it and you may be willing to put the effort in a bit more. What I have found a number of times is an approach that really turns me off and I don't know if anybody else will feel the same.

And I explain there's some people that you just have instant rapport with and you you're talking and you talk about anyone, anything, you know, you can respond and the conversation flows. But then there are others where you feel like you're in an interrogation room. And you are being examined and it's like, will I pass or am I taking the boxes? What next?

And I have developed I think I'm being horrible. I'm sorry, but I know it's none of you, so I don't have to apologize to any of you. But I get to the point where I say, listen.

This is not relevant, how many children I have is not the point at this point there is and I even went as far as to explain to a gentleman, there is an art to conversation. You don't just dive in and start my deepest, darkest secrets. We need to do a bit of a song and a dance, you know, and sing. No, I'm serious. I was explaining to, you know, how is the weather, how what's it like where you are so and so.

What do you like? Would you like to think blah, blah, blah, music, food, blah, blah, blah, just thing. And then we will get to the point where I will talk about my husband and child and whatever and so forth. OK. Because I have had problems there in the past, people have looked at me and I've talked to them and they want to know. So where have you studied and what have you studied?

And when I give them the information, they said, well, I'm not speaking to anybody who is more educated than me and. I am talking not virtually I'm talking standing in front of me and being told, yes, you are more qualified than I am, I don't speak to anybody better than me, so I'm gone.

Nice. Nice talking to you. And they have gone. So, you know, how much information do you give? But also, it's not about getting passing an exam if you spend the time. This stuff will come out. It will come out in the wash.

And I've lost my my just my opinion. This is. I think you're right. But I also I think people forget that we're all kind of working this stuff out for ourselves. And so you might be having a conversation with someone who is interrogating you like that way. But that just might be the that point in his life or in his process of trying to figure out what to do. And he's read somewhere that you need to ask women questions. And so that's what he's trying.

Like, I've done things that I'm sure like where I think I should try this. I should try this. And then it's gone terribly. And that person's formed an opinion of me because of that one interaction.

But that's not who I am. I mean, I'd love to have a running kind of track of what are my first impressions of someone vs. what they are now. If I if I could be bothered to fly into a home, because it does change. But then on the flipside, when you use that example that you gave, like asking and being, you know, put off that you there were more you were more educated in them, I'd say that's a good thing, because if they're so insecure that they're they have it, then you're better off get rid of them quickly.

Whereas if you had had some kind of interaction with them and it had taken a little bit slower and eventually you got to that point and realized that they're pretty insecure about stuff like that, then you might consider that to have been waste of time. So I just I guess my point is it's like it's hard to hard to hard to judge. And I think we all have to try things. And they might work with some people. They might not with others.

I know one of my biggest bugbears on online dating is people who just don't ask questions. They just they seem to think it's an interview. And I'm like a reporter and asking them about their lives and then they never ask a question back and.

Which is frustrating, is that what this is about, is it and it's like everything else when I was saying that, but the where it is, you do have to practice it. I have to work out and see if you get say it wasn't very open and doesn't tell you anything. It's difficult to build the report, isn't it? Because you just think, well, I can't.

Yes, I there definitely is. And I think people can set off those kind of things from nerves and whatever. But I think we have a fighting challenge coming up. And part of that is going to be like a connection matrix. And it's basically a matrix of questions that you ask. And why is that you build connection based on the level of energy.

So if the conversation is really going deep and you ask certain level questions, if it's really low energy, then you just can to ask the superficial questions.

So, yeah, I think it's not and I think it's part of what you learn.

There's one one point I asked some technical questions about designing the art itself. So you mentioned something about eHarmony asking a lot of questions versus doesn't ask a lot of questions. So here is a play. And some people don't give a correct answer or don't answer most of them, which is not because they are like kind of tricky. They just don't want to give away too much information about themselves. And, you know, just this data is kind of Ebola.

And you hear a lot of cases like Facebook and Cambridge Analytics that do some bad stuff about your data. So how can we trust the dating app to give all kinds of information? We have some people actually, based on the culture of a professor at the university, may be embarrassed that he's a professor at City University and may just say, OK, I'm a little crazy or I'm working at university or something. This just sort of things. How do you handle the position that you're designed for?

And so also, when you ask a lot of questions at the beginning of the app, maybe some people may give up and just answer quickly because it is too many and just give up and continue just sort of things in your design. How do you handle all of these kind of things?

I mean, it's data and security is is like one of the most important things that when you consider doing something like this and and there are protections and stuff. I mean, I literally had a conversation with this the other day because I wanted it to be even more robust and I wanted to understand how it was. It wasn't just my developers making decisions without me understanding it in terms of like the Cambridge, like it's interesting saying the Cambridge online thing is, is because I was quite close to that case.

I was in advertising. I actually had a friend who worked for Cambridge Analytica at the time. And that's a situation where actually the information without going down into a rabbit hole that like that's I think that's not nice. That's not certainly the same as maybe losing information from actually a really good example is actually Madison, which is a dating site that is specifically for people who want to have affairs. They got hat and all their information leaked on to online and they should have known that and they should have done more protection, I think.

So on one hand, it's like you've got to do everything you can as a dating service, but then as a user, you've got to be conscious that, like even the biggest, biggest companies in the world have had some sort of you know, they're not they're not like immune to it, even if they don't get hacks. You have the example of Twitter the other day where, you know, massive Twitter accounts were taken, taken over, not because they had a hack, but because someone put a password or something accessed in a BlackBerry, and then they were able to get control of an admin account and make loads of changes.

So it's it's the sort of thing where, like, if it's that sensitive, you're better off not giving that information over to a different service or a different person unless because it's out of your control at that point that you're you're dependent on them to to keep it secure. So as a product owner, as a dating app service, I'd say we will do everything we can to make sure that that is a waste of talent. Yes, paramount importance.

But as a user, I think you have to take some kind of steps to. Make sure that you're protected, too, by your own, you know, there would be like this sort of tradeoff between like giving too much information to have like a good match and be afraid to give too much information for being abused. Sort of trade off for you. So, like, for example, should I trust any dating app and answer all kind of questions?

I'd like give all kind of a about myself. Why should I be. So you mentioned even sometimes. So I'm asking people to put your passport and take a photo and just so they trust all of these kind of things. I'd say, yes, I think so I. So there's one thing that you can check. I mean, we're not part of it because it's not something we're doing yet. But if you're worried about.

I would just if it's a legitimate website or a legitimate app, they're going to be taking steps to protect that data and they'll have the the privacy policies and the terms and conditions and stuff to show that they are taking steps. And I wouldn't I wouldn't risk handing stuff over to a site that I didn't trust or didn't know. So on some dodgy site or whatever, I mean, it's one of the things I have to overcome as an old dating site because nobody knows who we are.

So we have to earn that trust and. But, yeah, it's I think I think it's you have to you have to you can't really use these sites unless you get that information over. So the best thing you can do is just choose the site, make sure you trust it in the first, and then do some sort of, you know, if you can do it on a recommendation or that someone has said that this is a good site and do that.

But also, remember at the back of your head that even the biggest sites of the biggest out in the world are at risk in some ways. So if it's something that you wouldn't want and I would argue that like hopefully the sorts of things that you're putting on a dating app, you know, they just about who you are as a core, as a person.

If you met you in real life, you shouldn't really need to give away deep, dark secrets for a dating site to try and match with someone.

It should be something that they can get to know. As you met you as a person, I think this sort of thing like Ashley Madison, that's a whole nother kind of story. And I can understand why they would want that getting out. But that's the risk you take when you want to have an affair in the first place. So, you know. Does that make sense? No. OK, well, thank you, Sanjay, for for sharing your wisdom and best of luck with the app.

Thank you. It looks like an exciting beginning for you and an android as soon as possible, please.

Working on it and working on it. Yeah. Thanks, guys. It's been really fun. And yeah, it's been it's nice to talk to people about it and actually kind of, you know, I mean, if you guys have any thoughts or even any feedback, you just have to be on Instagram or just email me a lot.

Like I'd love to get those kind of perspective and feedback and and, you know, if you try the app. Yeah. Let me know if it's anything big or small that you don't like. We're small and nimble enough that we can change this.

All right. Thanks, Sanjay. Thanks, everyone, for being on. And next week, we've got. Who are you? So about self-awareness, self acceptance and. So see you then. Thank you. Thanks, everyone. By.