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Turning 40 and Leaving the Bureaucracy for Science Fiction
Episode 9023rd April 2024 • Forty Drinks: The Podcast About Turning 40 • Stephanie McLaughlin
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David Hankins spent 20 years in the Army working in logistics. He retired at 42 and had to figure out what his next act was going to be. There would be stability to support his family, but he would also chase his dream of becoming a professional writer. Despite David’s midlife transition looking pretty smooth, there has been a lot of uncertainty. In both his search for a civilian job and his efforts to break into publishing, he’s heard a lot of no’s, or gotten no response at all. His approach to that was to provide himself with as many options as possible so that at least a few would work out.

Guest Bio 

David Hankins is the award-winning author of Death and the Taxman and writes from the thriving cornfields of Iowa where he lives with his wife, daughter, and two dragons disguised as cats. David joined the US Army after college and, through some glitch in the bureaucracy, convinced Uncle Sam to fund his wanderlust for twenty years. He has lived in and traveled through much of Europe, central Asia, and the United States. Now that he’s retired from the Army, David devotes his time to his passions of writing, traveling, and finding new ways to pay his mortgage. You can find him at https://davidhankins.com

Turning 40 and Leaving the Bureaucracy for Science Fiction

In this episode, David Hankins shares his journey from serving in the Army for 20 years, through his transition back to civilian life, to becoming a published author. He talks about his military career, starting with his initial intention to join the military police, leading to his eventual role in logistics and ammunition management. David touches upon his travels, including deployments to Afghanistan and Iraq, and his life-changing decision to retire after 20 years of service. David discusses the challenges and uncertainties he faced while transitioning to civilian life, including his pursuit of a writing career. Inspired by storytelling sessions with his daughter, David began writing short stories, leading to winning the Writers of the Future contest. He also shares insights into his writing process, motivations, and his upcoming self-published novel 'Death and the Taxman'. Throughout the episode, David emphasizes the importance that networking, planning, and maintaining a positive outlook had during his midlife transition.

Guest Resources

Order Death and the Taxman here!

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Do you have the Midlife Ick?

Download Stephanie’s guide to the Ick to diagnose whether you or someone you love is suffering from this insidious midlife malaise. www.fortydrinks.com/ick

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The Forty Drinks Podcast is produced and presented by Savoir Faire Marketing/Communications

Transcripts

Stephanie: Hi, David. Welcome to the podcast.

David: Stephanie. So glad to be here.

Stephanie: I'm thrilled to have you. It's interesting right now. I am in a little bit of a, trend. I don't know if I could say a trend, a little bit of a loop of writers. Uh, my last guest was a writer and you're a writer. And, uh, I have been known to take fingers to keyboards over the years. So, so this is fun for me to get to, to talk to writers. Um, so welcome.

David: So glad to be here.

Stephanie: So let's jump right in. I want to start where I always start. Tell me about the forces that shaped you into who you are when we start our story. What is the prologue? Who were you as a young man?

David: Uh, so the prologue. I started off, went to college, studied criminology because I wanted to be a military policeman. I did Army ROTC and everyone told me, Oh yeah, yeah, your grades are great. You're going to get your first choice. And then the Army had a different idea, which the Army often does. Uh, and so I commissioned as a second lieutenant in the Ordnance Core. And I, my first question literally was, What's the Ordnance Corps? What do they do?

Stephanie: So, I have, okay, I have a brother who is very into, uh, ordnance. So, uh, I, uh, ordnance is weaponry.

David: Yes, I learned that very quickly. Um, But apparently, the Army, to the Army it means maintenance. Because, long story short, back in World War II, the Transportation Corps wasn't doing so great at maintenance, and the Ordnance Corps was, so they got the mission, and have had it ever since. And so most of the people that get that job go do maintenance. I take my car to someone else to change the oil. I, I'm not a maintenance person. so I was a little bit panicked and then they said, Oh no, no, don't worry about it. You're going to go, to a unit to do ammunition management. And that's what I did for the first half of my career. So I joined the Army, did logistics management, focused on ammunition and absolutely loved it. Traveled all over the world with that. Went to Afghanistan once, Iraq twice, um, and then lived in Germany for a total of 10 years. By the time I was done with the Army, uh, I retired as a Lieutenant Colonel at 20 years. And that was really, that's the prologue in a very, very short condensed version

Stephanie: Yeah.

David: what shaped me and what led me to that transition at 42 years old.

Stephanie: quick tangent on why the Army?

David: So it was actually because of my brother. My brother did the classic, I don't want to live at home anymore, I'm going to go join the army to get away from home. If he had actually listened to the first recruiter he talked to, he would have gone to the Defense Language Institute, which he's genius with languages and could have gone to be translator or something like that. Well, he really really wanted to get out. And he joined the infantry because it was the first thing he could sign up for and He did it for four years.

He was like, I I'm not an infantry person. But in that time period, I was making my decisions of what I want to be when I grow up. And it was that classic, I want to be just like my brother. I want to join the Army. And he said, and this is almost a direct quote, you can join the army, but don't do it as a private, do it as lieutenant. You get much more pay and the same level of respect. And I'll take. Okay, I like more money. And so then I went to college, and became a lieutenant and joined the Army.

Stephanie: great. How much older than you was your brother?

David: Uh, seven years.

Stephanie: Okay. he's a, he's a bunch older. yeah. Why was he so intent on getting out of the house?

David: I think it was the classic teenage

Stephanie: angst.

David: It was, you know, he, he wasn't, getting along with the parents at that time and once he was out of the Army, they got along great. They were fine. So I think it was just that classic, like I said, teenage angst and, you know, he just had to get through that. And I was the youngest of four. And so I. I was the one that watched what everyone else did and went, Oh, that's not a smart path. Let me do it this way. And, uh, so that kind of guided me, into the Army as a smart

Stephanie: Great. you joined at 22 and spent 20 years in the Army, which is interesting because, um, the milestone of the 40th birthday. And tell me how for you. Was it even a milestone?

David: It was a milestone in that, you have the, the celebration, maybe a couple black balloons, but you know, the tongue in cheek type stuff. But it was a point where I was looking forward, I knew I was going to retire at, uh, 42 because I, I was getting to that point of I was having more bad Army days and good Army days, so it was time to change over to something else. And so I was planning that process, uh, of transition, which would be two years later.

Stephanie: Okay. were really looking at a transition later. So 40 was a, was a little bit of a sort of pulled punch for you. me about retiring from the Army. What is that like after 20 years? Mm

David: so, Process wise, uh, the Army is a giant bureaucracy, so they have a process for everything, and, it's the kind of thing where if you work it far enough ahead of time, there are no surprises. You just work to do the bureaucracy, do all the paperwork, jump through all the hoops they give you and they give you lots of hoops and, and then you're done. And so that was, I'm very much a planner. It's part of the logistics background. And so I was planning all of that. So I knew exactly what step, as soon as, as I was able to drop my retirement packet, I dropped it. As soon as I was able to apply for an internship, I applied for it. So I had as much lead time as possible as I could get for things because I knew there would be crises and if you do routine things routinely, you have time for the crises Um, and so that's what I was trying to do.

And so that transition process wise was actually fairly smooth. Emotion wise it was interesting because I was leaving the only thing I knew for 20 years. And going to be a civilian and, um, not having to listen to the big bureaucracy anymore. And so, yeah, there are definitely some, some feelings that I figured out what the new me was.

Stephanie: were the of leaving the bureaucracy and the negatives of leaving the bureaucracy?

David: So the positives are, definitely that, I don't have to do the nitpicky things that they require, like get up at 630 in the morning to go do physical training. I do still get up and work out, but if I feel like sleeping in one day, for whatever reason, I can. I'm not going to get a, an email that randomly says, Hey, you've been selected to insert task from the Army. You know, go to Iraq, go to Afghanistan, do get that.

Stephanie: Mm hmm.

Mm

David: I'm not going to Um, I can volunteer for that kind of thing because I now have a job working for the Army again, but that would be my choice instead of theirs. So that's definitely the positive of that. Uh, the negative? It's the people. I miss the people.

And as I've gone from organization to organization, I really learned that it was the people that made the difference. If I was surrounded by people who were caustic, I hated the organization. If I was surrounded by people who were positive, I loved the organization, regardless of how good the organization actually was.

Stephanie: Sure Sure. So now you're headed towards 42 and, the military, as I know from a dear friend, has sort of classes on how to be a civilian, and, and how to transition from, regimented life to civilian life. and that takes a couple of years to work your way through,

David: Um, it can, and I took as much time as I could to work my way through it. Because I had that time, because I planned it. You can actually do it all very quickly. So if someone gets a, uh, like a medical discharge, they go through that same process, but it's all very quick because the Army wants to get them into the VA system and off of the Army bill.

Stephanie: Yep.

David: Yeah, it can be fast, but it doesn't have to be.

Stephanie: As you're looking towards 42, who did you think you wanted to be when you left the Army?

David: I wanted to be someone who spent more time with family. Because I, I did not like having to, be told, Hey, you have to go wherever for a month, for a week, for a year, and miss all the things as my daughter's growing up. Whether that is, concerts at school, or performances, or, you know, piano lessons, or whatever. I wanted to be there for those things. You know, be able to say, yes, we are going to take a vacation. We are going to go somewhere for the weekend. And so whatever job I found, I wanted it to be something that I could clock out and forget about the job until I clock back in. And so that was what I, the person I wanted to be was someone that was there for the family more.

Stephanie: So, as a side note, just to fill in a blank here, you met your wife while you were in college. Is that right?

David: uh, I was in college. She was actually in high school still when we met. Uh, and, uh,

Stephanie: I forgot that.

David: Yeah, we got married, about a year before I joined the Army.

Stephanie: All right. So she was

David: She had just, yeah, she had just graduated high school when we got married and headed off. First assignment was Germany.

Stephanie: wow. Holy cow. Okay. all right. So you get married and then, you guys have a daughter.

, she was born in Germany, in:

Stephanie: All right. Okay. All right. So you want to be someone who is around more for your family and who can make your own decisions about, what things you're going to participate in or or need to do. All right. So, as we, as our clock winds down on the Army, we know what kind of job you're looking for and kind of generally what you want from life.

If I remember from our first conversation, a new flower starts to bloom here.

David: Yeah, so as my daughter was growing up, I always like telling stories. And, um, I would tell her bedtime stories, tell her stories so that she would pay attention and actually eat dinner and all this stuff. And it was just lots and lots of stories. That oral tradition became a written tradition because she started poking holes in my stories when she got old enough to go, wait, no, yesterday you said.

I started writing it all down, and discovered that I actually I had two and a half books worth of mid grade stories that I thought were fantastic. That was the beginning of my writing journey. And I don't know how deep you want me to go into that. But, yeah, that was the new thing. I was submitting my manuscript to agents and most of them were ignoring me. I have now come to learn that that is the way of the writing world.

Stephanie: Right. That's pretty normal.

David: And this was, uh, at about the four, um, I was about 40 at this point, so about two years from my transition. And so I said, I need some credits to my name. Because nobody knows me and that's why they're not even paying attention.

So I thought, I can find a short story contest. I'll write a short story and I'll win the contest. My enthusiasm and optimism are unparalleled. I had no idea how hard the thing was that I was diving into. Um, so, I dove into short stories, uh, learned how much I did not know about writing, and started teaching myself based off of the, uh, classes I could find, books I could read. I found a writing mentor who really helped, uh, speed up my learning process so that I could become a professional author. And I started actually getting published. I got some short stories published. And then 18 months after I switched over to short stories, I won a contest called Writers of the Future, which is the biggest amateur, talent search for science fiction fantasy in the world.

Stephanie: Congratulations. That's amazing.

David: They have 12 winners every year, three per quarter, and they bring them down to Hollywood for a week, that ends with a red carpet gala that is, broadcast to about three million people. didn't know it was broadcasted that many as I was standing up there on stage. So my hands were shaking a little bit because, you know, there's 400 people in the room.

But, um, but yeah, that was really the start of my, my writing journey, which, uh, you know, in parallel with me getting out of the Army and trying to find a day job to pay for the mortgage, because very few writers actually pay for the mortgage with writing.

Stephanie: right.

David: All of that's happening in tandem and, uh, things happen in threes, I've discovered. Um, so I hit my final day in the Army. I got a, the call saying I won the contest and I got a call saying, Hey, we've got a new job for you. You didn't even apply for this job, but we really, really, really want you. Someone else gave us your resume. Will you please come work for us? And uh, so and that was all within a two week span.

Stephanie: Wow

David: This is clearly what I need to be doing

Stephanie: Clearly, holy cow. Talk about setting yourself up for like post retirement careers. Did somebody give you a home as well?

David: Well, I I already had the

Stephanie: A home, a car?

David: I bought the home with the knowledge that I was going to retire so I made sure I had the lowest payment possible because I didn't know what my retirement check was going to be. You know, if I got a new job or it would take me a year, no clue. Yeah, I had all that set up, but yeah, the job did kind of fall into my lap. Um, but part of that is also through networking. As, as I was retiring, there's a local group here for Veterans, uh, And the guy who puts it together, he's like, okay, we've got all these employers in the area. They come to this event at a local, uh, brewery. All the people who are in the process of retiring, they come in. He says, and now talk! And that's it. Yep. Um.

Stephanie: That's great.

Intermission

Stephanie: well, that's great to have a resource that to at least, you know, help make connections because I know at the beginning of my career, well, not at the beginning of my career, but when I moved back to New Hampshire in, uh, in my early thirties, networking became a huge part of, of everything I've done since. You know, I spent a good solid 10 years. You know, doing all the business community things and at all the events and all the after hours's and all the chamber meetings and, you know, you meet everyone. And so, you know, from then on out, not that I don't do anything anymore, but it's, it's, you know, the volume has turned down quite a bit and, but you, you have these connections that can help you, you know, bridge into different opportunities and So, yeah, networking is a big part of it.

So, okay. you win this contest and, was it with a piece that was from part of what the stories you had been telling your Was it that that had evolved or

David: It evolved from that. So the very first short story I wrote, was called Hell's Bureaucracy. And it's about a guy who has, he's the only one that can see the demons and angels around us, and he had this demon whose only job is to, torment him through bureaucratic means. So, all the paperwork that gets lost, that's the demon being a jerk, you know, sending that email that never should have gone to the boss, that's a, you know, he's like, I swear I didn't send that. So, anyway. That had grown from her asking, you know, Daddy, what do you do at work every day? I'm like, I do logistics. I sit at a computer. It's really boring. So I tell her I fight bureaucracy in all its forms. Some days I win, some days I lose. And her two to three year old mind literally thought I went to work with a sword and fought a slathering monster named bureaucracy.

Stephanie: Oh my god, that's beautiful.

David: And so I I, in fact, I realized this one day when, uh, it was a weekend, I had to go in to grab something from my office. And she's like, can I come with you? Sure. Yeah, no problem. And she puts on this outfit. Like I, I bought her, that was a cape, a shield, a sword. And she came, her face was like, I'm ready to go to war. And she walks in, she draws her sword. She's like, where's Bawakese? I'm

Stephanie: Oh my god, David That is the sweetest story I have heard in so long.

David: Well, I'm going to grab my sword off the wall because of course I have a sword on the wall. Who doesn't? Uh, and we roam the empty hallways of my office fighting bureaucracy. And so that short story grew from that.

Stephanie: I'm I'm literally touched by this like I'm welling up. This is unbelievable. I love this.

David: And So that short story was the first one I wrote. I submitted it to the contest. It won an honorable mention, which was the first feedback I'd gotten that wasn't friends and family. Uh, And so I got hooked on the short stories. And my winning short story is in the same world. It actually has a couple of the same characters in it. And it's called Death and the Taxman. And it's about the Grim Reaper trapped in an IRS agent's dying body. And he has to regain his powers before he dies and faces judgment for his original sin.

Stephanie: Oh my goodness.

David: And so it won the contest. It was published in, it was published in Writers of the Future Volume 39.

Stephanie: Oh

David: in May of:

Stephanie: How perfect.

David: And yeah, I've, I've just dove straight into the whole publishing world. I'm self publishing that book. I ran a Kickstarter for it, which did really, really well. It got like Kickstarter project of the day, project we love, funded at 595%. I've gotten rave reviews from the people who got the pre orders. Uh, and so, yeah, that's. That is where I want to be able to pay my mortgage. And so I'm, I'm, working toward that. So I don't have to continue doing this job that I'm a contractor for the Army right now.

Stephanie: Yeah. Yeah. who's your, uh, author idol? Whose, whose life would you like yours to look like? Or whose output would you like yours to look like? Mm

David: Actually I would have to say, uh, we have a slightly different writing style, but, uh, I was at a conference this past week and I got to meet, David Weber. Uh, David Weber is a, international best selling author of science fiction. His, uh, best known series is the Honor Harrington series. And I learned a lot from reading those books about, you know, like leadership lessons. And, you know, it's military sci fi, you know, so he has a lot of tactics and stuff like that. he just writes fantastic books that people gobble up. And that's what I want to do. Um, my writing style is very different. I, I don't write the serious, military sci fi like he does. Um, , uh, and so my style is more like Terry Pratchett. I don't know if you've heard of him.

Stephanie: I've heard the

David: he wrote the Discworld series, In fact he had a character called Death, who was the Grim Reaper. And I had to work very hard to make my Grim Reaper a different character. It's like,

Stephanie: Right.

David: it to look like fan fiction.

Stephanie: yeah.

David: but I've had people tell me that, who have read it, who are like, this is like Terry Pratchett. Like, thank you.

Stephanie: That's a great compliment. Yeah. Yeah. I've read a lot of, um, John Scalzi,

I dabble in some science fiction. I'm really, really, uh, excited for you that your first book is coming out this year. That's

David: Yeah, it's, It's very exciting. I've, uh, at the conferences I was just at, I was able to sell copies and every time I gave that spiel, people would laugh at the same point of, you know, the Grim Reaper trapped in an IRS agent's dying body. They're like, that's perfect. I want to read that now. Like, yes, please. Here you can buy the book now. Um,

Stephanie: That's fantastic. So, you know, I'm listening to you and feeling like, well, gee, David, transition's going pretty darn well for you. Have there been any pieces or parts of it that are, that, that might fall into what I call the Ick? Have there been pieces that have been uncomfortable or where you've been stuck or where things don't feel like they fit well, because you're telling me a story where, goodness gracious, everything is just dropping into place for you, which is wonderful.

David: A lot of it, is the uncertainty of what's actually going to come next. So, like as I was submitting to Writers of the Future, I would submit and, you know, the story would come back, you know, with perhaps an honorable mention, um, but not getting any farther. I submit to lots of markets for my other short stories to try to get them published, uh, professionally, and the rejection rate is 98%. So I get a lot of no. Same thing as I was applying for jobs. I got either a lot of no or a lot of no response.

Stephanie: Mm hmm.

David: And so the, the job I did end up getting was one I'd looked at and said, no way, I'm not applying for that. Because in the job description, it said up to 85 percent travel. Like, no, I I'm retiring to spend more time with my family, not less. And it wasn't until they called me and said, no, no, no. Yes, the contract does say that. But in reality, people are traveling about one week out of the month. And, you know, the travel is to, you know, some cool places, some not cool places. Um, but I was looking at that and went, I could do a week, a month. I like to travel and everything in between those travel times, the requirements are very low, so I can clock out of work and not have to think about it again.

Stephanie: Right. so yeah, I'd say that

David: The Ick, the negative was that, that uncertainty of, I don't know if I'm going the right way. I don't know. You know, I've, I put myself out there in a thousand different directions and we'll see who says yes. Oh, they did. Okay. I'm going that way then. So, um, I, I guess I, uh, fought the Ick of that by, providing myself as many options as possible.

Stephanie: So two other things that that are typically involved with it, if you don't mind, I'll just go exploring your life. I'll just go rooting around in your life. Um, as we reach that, that milestone of 40, you start getting, um, uh, feedback from your, uh, bones and ligaments and, and all the rest of it. Now you spent 20 years in the Army doing PT and, and, you know, so are, are you, how are you doing in that respect?

David: Um, I am getting a disability check from the VA. Um, because I like my knees, my back, my shoulder, um, things don't work as well as they used to.

Uh, and so my wife is a CrossFit coach, and she does all the things CrossFit, and I can't keep up with her because, uh, because of pain restrictions, like, I can't do burpees, because when I do the up down, like that, too much, it's too much compression on the spine, and it hurts for three days, and it's not the, oh, my muscles are sore, it's a legit hurt.

Stephanie: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, I had spinal surgery late last year. So I'm, I'm aware of what the, what the legitimately hurts actually means.

Okay. So you're starting to get some of that stuff. and what about, if you don't mind, and if you do, we can, we could come out of this, this alley, but, um, you and your wife have been married for a very long time and you got married when you were both very, very young, which in a lot of cases, people grow up and they don't necessarily grow in the same direction. How has that been for the two of you as come into middle age?

David: Done very As I was in the Army, uh, she made the conscious choice of, I'm going to follow you around the Army. She tried to do, uh, you know, her own career as she did, or as we moved. She studied for a massage therapy school, uh, before I joined, but it's really hard to do that kind of thing as you're moving every two years. Because you have to recertify in every state or country that you move to and those processes are typically lengthy and then it's time to move again.

So, uh, she made the choice to, uh, be the stay at home wife and mother and was very happy with that and I was very happy that I, you know, had a partner that could do the other half of the things that I don't do well, like cooking. I eat very well. I don't cook very well. And and it's something that she enjoys doing.

So we found the things that she's good at, uh, the things that I'm good at and those complemented each other and so we were able to, uh, continue growing together, uh, as we grew up, I guess.

Stephanie: Yeah. Yeah. That's really fortunate. If I remember correctly from our original conversation, she's just hitting this 40 mark now. Right?

David: and so, uh, her transition is actually happening about the same time mine is. Uh, as she, so we've been in place now for four years, um, and so she has started coaching CrossFit, you know, actually has a job where she's getting paid regularly, which is not something that she's had, uh, steadily before this.

Stephanie: Mm

David: And, you know, she went and got all of her certifications for that. She's currently going through a class for certification for, uh, to be a nutritionist as well, because it complements. And, uh, is, uh, setting herself up as an expert in her field, uh, being a CrossFit coach, uh, working a couple of different venues, uh, to see what it is that she likes and how she likes to do it. And, you know, there, there were about three weeks, four weeks last month where she went, Oh, I'm doing too much work. I'm exhausted, like every waking hour. She's like, okay, dial it back a little bit. And so, you know, finding the, those points.

Stephanie: Yeah. Yeah. understanding the feedback and taking the right steps to, to get back to a good balance.. That's great. Well, um, David, I got to tell you this, uh, you know, your story is, is a wonderful one. And, and frankly, one of the, um, easier transitions that I've, that I've come across. So I'm so happy for you that, uh, that yours was easy and that you were able to see some of the signs along the way and make the right, like you were saying, send your, your energy out in so many directions that, you would at least have something, something would, would come of it. You saw the writing on the wall and you did all the right things.

David: Yeah, because nobody stays in the Army forever. Nobody stays in any career forever. So, uh, it makes sense as someone who likes to plan things to, um, plan it out. And I was thinking about it as I was driving home from work, uh, today of one of the reasons why it feels like everything just falls together. And a lot of it is perspective.

Stephanie: Mm

David: Like I said, I get told no a lot and. I can, you know, take that, internalize it, feel the self pity, rage at the world, or I can look at it as an opportunity. And so, I try to have that positive outlook with whatever the situation is. Uh, I might rage a little bit. Because the anger, you know, will be there. But at, in the end, I tried to turn it into a positive, all right, what are the opportunities here? What can I learn? How can I grow from this problem? Cause like as I was in the military, I definitely had jobs I did and places I went that I did not want to go. Uh,

and. There was a, about a one to two year period where I was very, very angry at the Army and the Army didn't care. Uh, and so it, I had to find that balance, had to find a way to, uh, turn that negative into a positive.

Stephanie: Yeah. Yeah. Well, that's really about attaching, right? Attaching to the outcome and, not, and not attaching to, to that, feedback. Um, it, what you're talking about is a lot like, being in sales, right? The salespeople hear no more than they hear yes. Um, and, and I have experienced that as a business owner and, and somebody who's, looking for new clients and, you have conversations and they think they go really well.

And then they, you know, and it's like, nah, we decided to go a different way. Uh, I had 1 of those, uh, last fall. It was like. Really? I was there for like three hours. Like I thought we were really connecting. I was like, Oh, okay. Uh, but yeah, you, you can't attach to that. Otherwise it'll ruin your,

David: Right.

Stephanie: Well, that's a wonderful lesson, um, and a great place for us to,wrap up today. So, I just wanted to say thank you so much for,coming,on the show with me and for sharing your story. And, um, I'm very, very excited for, uh, for your book to come out on April 15th.

David: Well, thank you very much. Uh, I'm so glad that you responded and said I could come on the show. Uh, this has been a lot of fun. And for anyone who is interested in the book Death and the Taxman. It's available for pre order wherever fine books are sold. So Amazon Barnes and Noble, stuff like that. Uh, and. You can find me at my website at davidhankins.com. Uh, If you like to read light hearted stuff, that's what I write, because that's what I like to read, and there's not nearly enough humor in the world.

Stephanie: That is true. And I'll put all those details in the show notes for today's episode, so anybody who's listening will be able to go down and just click on those and, find you right away.

David: Thank you so much. And I'm so glad you, uh, had me on.

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